Author Topic: An observation on MMM appeal  (Read 8537 times)

ks135ks

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An observation on MMM appeal
« on: July 02, 2017, 04:13:50 PM »
I've been browsing the MMM forums today and noticed a bit of a pattern and wondered if anyone else can relate.  My apologies if this has been discussed before (I haven't read every thread... have you seen how many there are?!).

There seems to be a savers propensity among the membership here (woohoo Awesome!).  Yet, even among the savers, it seems it wasn't until finding MMM that perhaps permission was granted to leverage all those savings into realizing you were FI and could RE.  It's almost like we (generally) couldn't allow ourselves to see what our true intentions were. 

Is MMM the runner in the 1984 Apple commercial? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axSnW-ygU5g

BTDretire

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Re: An observation on MMM appeal
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2017, 04:45:35 PM »
I've been reading MMM for just two years, I had not entertained the idea of retiring before FRA.
I was 59 at the time. I started running Firecalc and saw there was no reason I could not retire.
Over those two years my NW has increased another $300k.
 I attempted to retire in Jan, and did fine until our business did it's summer increase, now I'm working 20 to 30 hrs to cover the need.
 I'll try again next year.

kaizen soze

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Re: An observation on MMM appeal
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2017, 04:51:29 PM »
I was always a good saver. I just never knew what to do with the money I was accumulating. Was I saving for a house? For more education? A sweet car? It wasn't until I read YMOL that I finally found something to save for, and I got down to business. Then I started reading this website, and doubled down on the savings. I cut my ER time in half as a result of finding the website. But I don't feel like it gave me permission to save in any sense.

ks135ks

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Re: An observation on MMM appeal
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2017, 05:28:33 PM »
Quote
But I don't feel like it gave me permission to save in any sense.

I guess I was thinking the permission aspect has more to do with being permitted to break the traditional definition of working until 55 or 62 or 67 or whatever age was ingrained in each of us as retirement age, as opposed to permission to save itself.

For myself, I have always been a saver and goal driven but I never attached early retirement to why I was saving.  I can identify a few reasons (fear of job lost, fear of inadequacy, wanting to have the choice to be a SAHM when time came) for my high savings rate but ER was not one of them until MMM and subsequently reading YMOYL and others.

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Re: An observation on MMM appeal
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2017, 06:54:38 PM »
I won't be retiring early by the standards of this website, though I tell people at work that I expect to be gone at 55 and they think I am insane. I am a natural saver and investor, but until I found MMM, I didn't know what to save for. Sure, I could max out my 401K, but why? If I worked into my 60s, which every one does of course, I would be making more in retirement than I would be working. This site made me realize that even if I like working (which I do), I would like it even more if I were doing a bit less of it, and for a company I respected more.

I had to pull up some spreadsheets for a young engineer who was worried that he would never be able to retire. If you never do more than take the company match on the retirement plan, and project forward reasonable raises, you will match your working wage with retirement income by about 60. Around the MMM forum, working until 60 sounds crazy, but he had been reading all of the commentary about how his generation will never be able to retire.  Sometimes accomplishing something first needs to start with the knowledge that it can be done.

aceyou

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Re: An observation on MMM appeal
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2017, 07:33:26 PM »
I've been browsing the MMM forums today and noticed a bit of a pattern and wondered if anyone else can relate.  My apologies if this has been discussed before (I haven't read every thread... have you seen how many there are?!).

There seems to be a savers propensity among the membership here (woohoo Awesome!).  Yet, even among the savers, it seems it wasn't until finding MMM that perhaps permission was granted to leverage all those savings into realizing you were FI and could RE.  It's almost like we (generally) couldn't allow ourselves to see what our true intentions were. 

Is MMM the runner in the 1984 Apple commercial? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axSnW-ygU5g

I suppose I am exactly who you are describing.  My wife and I have never carried debt outside of our mortgage, and saved 20% or so of our checks.  We didn't budget or conscientiously save or invest.  We just lived how we wanted and that's about how things shook out. 

When I was younger, even in high school, I remember contemplating how people had very different incomes, but all seemed to retire at the same time, which seemed illogical to me.  I'd ask myself, "isn't it weird that everyone who makes 3 times more than average chooses to buy 3 times the stuff, rather than retiring 3 times earlier".  I'd think about why high earners never seemed to choose to live in tiny houses, buy used cars, and just get out in a few years.  But since I was unaware that anyone was doing it, I more or less just went with the flow. 

Then I got feeling the pressures of raising children and teaching and coaching and trying to be helpful husband around the house, and it got me searching for a solution.  So yeah, finding this website did exactly what you described.  I already had the tendency to save, and the idea of very early retirement was already something I'd thought about intellectually.  The community gave me the blueprint and the green light so to speak to go ahead and do what already seemed like a logical consequence of being a higher earner. 

marty998

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Re: An observation on MMM appeal
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2017, 04:04:59 AM »
I'd ask myself, "isn't it weird that everyone who makes 3 times more than average chooses to buy 3 times the stuff, rather than retiring 3 times earlier".

This is curiously very simple and very very insightful.

deborah

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Re: An observation on MMM appeal
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2017, 04:19:36 AM »
OP you are right!

Monocle Money Mouth

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Re: An observation on MMM appeal
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2017, 05:00:34 AM »
I think that is a good observation. I have always been a saver and good about avoiding debt, but I never seriously considered early retirement until I found this blog. I was also pretty much illiterate about investing and distrustful of the whole investment industry. Learning about index funds and strategies for investing here made retiring early seem possible. I also don't fear losing money in a recession anymore. You just need to reframe the situation as getting the opportunity to buy more shares for less money. Buy, hold, rinse, repeat.

prognastat

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Re: An observation on MMM appeal
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2017, 08:25:43 AM »
I was always reasonably frugal at least to the point where I was investing in my 401k at least to company match, savings in a savings account and not going in to excessive debt. However I was looking at information on investing for retirement to improve my work towards it when I found MMM and it definitely lit a fire inside.

I think it just strengthened some of the behaviors I already had and also helped give a goal. If I had continued the way I had been going I might have been able to retire somewhere around 55-60 which would be very early for most Americans, but I'm definitely excited about making that much sooner.

Lepetitange3

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Re: An observation on MMM appeal
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2017, 08:36:31 AM »
I agree.  The forum also helped give me the "permission" I needed to realize I could FIRE.  And it's still an adjustment.  Right now I'm plagued with a weird sort of guilt? Anxiety? that I'm focused on the fun things that sometimes bring money and sometimes don't.  But I feel like I should be having a regular paycheck even though I don't need it and I despised the job I FIREd from (even if it was gloriously easy to do).  lol I am totally open to any advice on how to get that feeling to go away.

FireLane

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Re: An observation on MMM appeal
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2017, 09:31:29 AM »
This is me, too. I was always a saver, but I saved for the sake of saving, not for a specific goal. I kept almost all of it in cash and earning very little interest. I suppose my thinking was that if some emergency came up, I'd be able to cover it.

It wasn't until I discovered MMM that I found out it was possible to save enough to retire early. In retrospect, the math is so simple, I should have realized it myself!

Fire2025

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Re: An observation on MMM appeal
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2017, 09:44:24 AM »
I'd ask myself, "isn't it weird that everyone who makes 3 times more than average chooses to buy 3 times the stuff, rather than retiring 3 times earlier".

This is curiously very simple and very very insightful.

Aceyou, so perfectly simple and true.  It's one of those things that, when you hear it you can't help but think, how did everyone not think this!!

OP: I'm a little different.  I had always been a budgeter, but never had the money to be a saver (i.e. broke artist type).  I found MMM at the same time I got my first "real" job at 43ish, $50,000ish/in Los Angeles.  It was such a rush to realize that I wouldn't have to work until 70 to just barely eek by on SS and what little I could save (see popular norm of 10%).  But I could save 50% of my income and buy my freedom by 55, woohoo!!!!!

And now I find myself wondering, how did I never think of this?????

ks135ks

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Re: An observation on MMM appeal
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2017, 11:25:20 AM »
This is me, too. I was always a saver, but I saved for the sake of saving, not for a specific goal.

Same here... it was saving because it was the right thing to do.  Do good work, save for a rainy day, retired "early" at 55 if you can or 62+ if you can't, follow the conventional wisdom. 

Finding MMM was freeing for me even though I still struggle with the implications of breaking with the conventional retirement philosophy.  My dad retired early, at 55, from his employer after 30 years.  He doesn't see why anyone would want to voluntarily step away from a good, stable paycheck with no definitive plans to find another one.  In his mind, I'm going rogue. 

Quote from: Lepetitange3
And it's still an adjustment.  Right now I'm plagued with a weird sort of guilt? Anxiety?

Me too!  But I like thinking that instead of saving for a rainy day, I'm saving to enjoy hundreds and thousands of sun shiny ones! ... and to puddle jump my way through the rainy ones!

rdaneel0

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Re: An observation on MMM appeal
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2017, 11:52:07 AM »
Yeah I was always a natural saver compared to average people, like I didn't have debt and saved maybe 20% of my below-average income.

Finding MMM helped me not only really boost my savings (over 50% now) but also that I could FI. I grew up thinking the only people who retired early or had any sense of FI were just ultra high earners or genius investors. I didn't understand the math behind early retirement or know anything about investing and how hands-off it really is.

I've always been a hardcore researcher though, so I found MMM early (age 23) and because of that I've literally never had any money problems and am looking forward to a long life of travel and passive income relatively soon. Huzzah!

Laura33

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Re: An observation on MMM appeal
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2017, 11:53:14 AM »
Quote
But I don't feel like it gave me permission to save in any sense.

I guess I was thinking the permission aspect has more to do with being permitted to break the traditional definition of working until 55 or 62 or 67 or whatever age was ingrained in each of us as retirement age, as opposed to permission to save itself.

For myself, I have always been a saver and goal driven but I never attached early retirement to why I was saving.  I can identify a few reasons (fear of job lost, fear of inadequacy, wanting to have the choice to be a SAHM when time came) for my high savings rate but ER was not one of them until MMM and subsequently reading YMOYL and others.

For me, it changed over time.  For most of my career, it was "I want to make a lot of money so I will never be poor again."  That, honestly, lasted for a good 20 years -- because even when I was making plenty and saving a good chunk of that, I still didn't have enough to live on permanently.  And as long as keeping my house was dependent on a job, I never felt secure.  And, TBH, I was ambitious, wanted to prove myself to the world -- and my mom raised me with the expectation that I find something so much I would want to do it my whole life, even if they didn't pay me.  Tl;dr:  I never did -- but because of that, ER just wasn't even something I conceived of.   

Then, thanks to DH's influence, that morphed into "you mean I can actually afford some of those fancy things?"  I think "lifestyle creep" is the wrong word; it was more that growing up poor/extremely frugal and not buying things by necessity, I felt great power in being able to, say, go grocery shopping without a list or a budget, or go to an artisan show and buy a fused glass plate just because I loved it, or take the kids to Europe even though the cost of four plane tickets seemed completely ridiculous.  This was about the time that I started reading MMM.  And, TBH again, my immediate response was "why the fuck would I want to go back and voluntarily live the lifestyle I worked so hard to escape?"  [+ I totally adore cars, so it was not exactly love at first sight]

Then a few things happened.  My stepdad died, and the ensuing depression was a scourge that stripped me down to the bone; so much of what I had thought was important was revealed as completely meaningless, all about ego and fear.  My workload dropped off, and for the first time the thought of throwing myself back out there to build it all back up again struck me as boring and exhausting and not something I really gave a fuck about.  And I realized that I wasn't actually poor any more -- that we had saved enough that we could quit if we wanted or needed to, even though it would require some lifestyle tradeoffs.  And suddenly more of the MMM message began to resonate:  that a lot of the money I was spending was on stuff that did not bring me pleasure or joy or meaning (e.g., generic takeout because I was too lazy/tired to cook); that I had used my job and family responsibilities as an excuse to become mentally and physically lazy, and that I was capable of so much more; that I didn't need to go whole-hog and live on $24K/yr like he did, but that I could decide for my own damn self what I wanted to spend money on (cars!) and what I didn't (bad pre-processed food!); and that I had the ability, right now, today, to quit if I really wanted to -- that it was really my choice whether to walk away from it all, or keep working.

But I also realized that because I had never really conceived of FIRE, I had no clue what I wanted to do with my post-work life -- well, we want to travel, but that requires the kids to be fledged.  And DH is not ready to quit at all yet, and my job has gotten more enjoyable since I started antidepressants.  So for now, my decision is to keep working while I spend my energy figuring out what is next.  But the power in knowing it is my decision, that whether to work or FIRE is in my control and no one else's, is pretty life-changing.

Tyson

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Re: An observation on MMM appeal
« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2017, 12:05:45 PM »
I'd ask myself, "isn't it weird that everyone who makes 3 times more than average chooses to buy 3 times the stuff, rather than retiring 3 times earlier".

This is curiously very simple and very very insightful.

Yes, very insightful!

dreams_and_discoveries

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Re: An observation on MMM appeal
« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2017, 12:38:12 PM »
Another agreement with your observation, I was always a saver, but MMM pushed me to the next level and encouraged me on the road to FIRE, which I hadn't seriously considered before.

itchyfeet

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Re: An observation on MMM appeal
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2017, 01:33:06 PM »
I think people end up here from different angles

1. Some are like the OP says, savers looking for information on reducing spending, increasing income and investing; and

2. So,pme have decided that they want to retire early and come here by googling something like "retiring in my 30s" or 40s or something like that.

I fall into the 2nd camp. Saving is something I have only been taking more seriously after coming to MMM in search of a way to retire very early..... in fact I found my way here after reading a bit of ERE.

My higher than average wealth wasn't specifically the result of good saving, although that was of course part of the story, but more so from some lucky and risky investments (excessive leverage amd lucky timing), some good advice from people when I first started working (re: retirement accounts) and an above average income.

Linea_Norway

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Re: An observation on MMM appeal
« Reply #19 on: July 04, 2017, 03:04:02 AM »
My DH and I have always been savers. My DH suggested for many years ago that we could perhaps become pensioners at the age of 50. I never fully believed it, because I had no idea how much you actually needed to do this. This site finally gave the answers I was looking for and it turns out that we are not so very far from being able to retire.

fuzzy math

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Re: An observation on MMM appeal
« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2017, 07:59:01 PM »
It never even occurred to me that a regular person COULD retire early. Only trust fund babies with ascots and velvet coats who had never worked a day in their lives could experience it.

And had I not discovered this site, I'd be putting in the minimum to get matching funds at my employer... and paying a lot more taxes with nothing to show for it.

*insert Bill and Ted woah*

obstinate

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Re: An observation on MMM appeal
« Reply #21 on: July 05, 2017, 04:29:10 AM »
I was always a saver, but I also significantly upped my game after finding mmm. Independence now vs in 25 years is much more compelling a reason to save. So, a little of both.

Linea_Norway

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Re: An observation on MMM appeal
« Reply #22 on: July 05, 2017, 04:32:58 AM »
It never even occurred to me that a regular person COULD retire early. Only trust fund babies with ascots and velvet coats who had never worked a day in their lives could experience it.


Actually, both my parent in law retired at 50. But FIL co-owned a company and sold his share to the other co-owner. He also owned his own pension fund with his private pension. So I thought for years that you could only retire early if you made really good money by being a company owner in a profitable company. But apparently we are very close to similar circumstances. I think it played a big roles that we don't have children, which would have cost a lot more.

Vegasgirl

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Re: An observation on MMM appeal
« Reply #23 on: July 05, 2017, 05:56:40 AM »
I agree with OP.  We have always been saving in 401k and deferred comp etc... but the cash we saved was always for something - house, car, etc...  This site has made me rework our entire plan.  It's made me pretty excited and scared at the same time.  It's easy to complain about work, but both scary and exciting to even think about making the transition to RE.  It's sinking in a little more each day.

aGracefulStomp

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Re: An observation on MMM appeal
« Reply #24 on: July 05, 2017, 07:36:10 AM »
There's a post I read (either on reddit or here) that talked about playing video games, that you could tell who was a saver and who was a spender by how the kids managed their game coins. I was a saver - never had to consciously save to get the most expensive sword or armour, always had the amount sitting in my inventory.

I also think it's a lot to do with how I was raised. Our family was always short on money (from overspending not from a lack of income, but I didn't know this as a kid). I developed the belief that money is a scarce resource and needs to be managed (ie saved) very carefully.

Absolutely had that "oh!" moment when I realised that saving could be motivated by a feeling other than fear. And definitely provided a bit more direction/motivation/purpose to my saving!

(Tbh, still find it hard to believe that I should have enough in 10 years to go part-time. Like the projections based on good ole maths come up with this insane figure and all I can feel is skeptical! Guess we'll see!)
« Last Edit: July 05, 2017, 07:38:34 AM by aGracefulStomp »

TheAnonOne

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Re: An observation on MMM appeal
« Reply #25 on: July 05, 2017, 08:24:30 AM »
I was always a "debt = bad" sort of kid. I was very aggressive paying off my debts even though, I was apparently willing to take on new ones for a nicer car, or whatever. Though, I always paid basically 100% that I could to them. As in, I paid debt at 5k a month or more.

When I was debt free, I would invest that money with an eye to being fabulously wealthy. I knew about compound interest and had been running calculators on it since I was probably 15.

I found MMM back 4-5 years ago (I am 27 now), and even then never really gave FIRE another chance. I think it really took hold AFTER I "had my fun" I had the sports car (I still have it), my motorcycle, and I got my house (its a little townhouse). Now, I have no more real materialistic desires.

According to the math, we could FIRE barebones in 3- 3.5 years, and more realistically a year or two after that (4.5 to 5.5 years) Though this is LARGELY due to my higher income, and I still feel like a bit of an outsider here.

TornWonder

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Re: An observation on MMM appeal
« Reply #26 on: July 05, 2017, 11:25:14 AM »
Add me to the list OP.  I was always a saver, maxing out tax-advantaged accounts and investing any extra money I had.  I would run the numbers and think: 'I'm going to be rich when I retire at 65'. 
Not until I stumbled upon this site did I think about the possibility of retiring early, and with all of the things I've learned since then I am on my way to being retired in my 40's.

nouveauRiche

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Re: An observation on MMM appeal
« Reply #27 on: July 05, 2017, 11:53:39 AM »
'I'm going to be rich when I retire at 65'. 

+1

RyanAtTanagra

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Re: An observation on MMM appeal
« Reply #28 on: July 05, 2017, 12:29:24 PM »
I'd ask myself, "isn't it weird that everyone who makes 3 times more than average chooses to buy 3 times the stuff, rather than retiring 3 times earlier".

I had a similar thought before discovering ERE/MMM in the form of 'Wouldn't it be nice if we all lived to 180 and could enjoy a 100 year retirement?  Although, we'd probably all just save an even lower percentage and work until 170'.

Jacob/MMM didn't give me 'permission', they just opened my eyes to something I'd never even considered was a possible option.  When you're in debt and just trying to fight to get out, and even that finish line seems impossibly far away, realizing there's another, even further finish line out there is hard to see on your own.

caracarn

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Re: An observation on MMM appeal
« Reply #29 on: July 05, 2017, 01:00:29 PM »
I came to MMM because I was trying to find a retirement calculator that showed what I felt was true, but that the big investment houses seemed to say was wrong; and that was that I did not need $5MM to retire or some crazy number like that.  I found his article about the super simply math of retirement and then also saw the message of retiring early, which was new to me.  So MMM helped validate that yes, if I got a a million and maybe a bit more, I'd be good, and more importantly that if I got to it early I would be good to go sooner.  Being in my late 40s and with a lot of kids I will not retire early by MMM standards, but I might be able to shave five years off the retirement age if I choose to and know that things are in great shape.

ixtap

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Re: An observation on MMM appeal
« Reply #30 on: July 05, 2017, 01:47:51 PM »
I started participating in the forums because it was nice to find like minded people. The in laws are baffled, the friends are split between thinking we are full of shit or poor as shit.

I have learned a lot about setting our actual number, instead of a vague five four more years. I have also learned a lot about transition and drawdown strategies. However, I came looking because we were coasting into leaving our jobs in a few years without much of a plan beyond "save as much as we can." It isn't a bad plan, especially when you know all about your 401k, IRA, HSA, etc., but it is kind of vague as a goal.

Izybat

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Re: An observation on MMM appeal
« Reply #31 on: July 05, 2017, 06:59:39 PM »
I have to say that I wish I was a saver earlier in life. I came into this way of life semi-recently (two years ago or so). It started first with YNAB and the mentality that I was so damn sick of always being in debt and wondering how to cover each new expense. The YNAB forums led me here, and I'm so very glad they did.

Since finding MMM my outlook has entirely changed, but I'm not 100% convinced if it's for the better or not. I used to be okay with doing my job, getting by, saving my 10% or so in my 401k, and being prepared to work until 65, because that's just what you did. Then I found this place and I figured out that there was another way. While ultimately this is good, and it's changed my outlook on money and savings, it has also changed my outlook on work for the worse. I now resent that I have to go into work in order to continue to make my salary to fund my 'stache and eventually retire early. I wish I was already FIRE, that I'd found this way of life a decade ago. Now I have to deal with choices that are already made (cars to pay off, houses that were purchased with higher-than-I'd-like mortgages and large-ish bills, lifestyle choices that are harder to take back, etc).

I'll get there eventually, but I just hope I don't get too manic in the process.

fuzzy math

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Re: An observation on MMM appeal
« Reply #32 on: July 05, 2017, 07:17:57 PM »
I'm 35 and my 3 coworkers are all 60. They're talking about retiring in 7 -10 years, and I'm only close enough with one of them to have said were all going to retire at the same time. 🤑

 

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