The Money Mustache Community

Other => Off Topic => Topic started by: MilesTeg on January 10, 2021, 01:53:57 PM

Title: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: MilesTeg on January 10, 2021, 01:53:57 PM
Bluntly, I think there is a risk of severe social upheaval within the next weeks or months. Certain elements of our society have demonstrated that they are completely willing to resort to violence to get their way.

While I don't think there is an extreme risk, I think the risk is high enough to warrant some preparedness.

What, if anything, are you doing with your home, your finances, to ensure you and your family's safety, etc.?
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: jehovasfitness23 on January 10, 2021, 02:01:43 PM
I'm with you. This is long from over. State Capitols will be soon.

We have 1 gun and I've thought about buying another. Other than that, not much else I can do.

I've struggled in the past if I should cut ties with fam and friends that are MAGAs but let it stand. No more. If they don't denounce him I can't be around them.

I think it's safe to say 60-70% of cops are conservatives and a large chunk of that are sympathetic to MAGA world. If stuff devolves too much that will not be good as sides will need to be chosen.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: American GenX on January 10, 2021, 02:30:21 PM
I avoid discussing politics with people.  I don't care what other people's opinions are about political policies, whether they are a socialist or a capitalist.

I watched some morning news and am getting to watch some of the NFL playoffs this afternoon putting everything else out of my mind.  I'm not living in fear because of a small group of radical Trump protestors anymore than I was during the riots, looting, and burning of cities over the summer.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: TheContinentalOp on January 10, 2021, 02:31:19 PM
Ignoring all media.

Going for a hike.

Reading old books.

Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: jehovasfitness23 on January 10, 2021, 02:36:05 PM
I avoid discussing politics with people.  I don't care what other people's opinions are about political policies, whether they are a socialist or a capitalist.

I watched some morning news and am getting to watch some of the NFL playoffs this afternoon putting everything else out of my mind.  I'm not living in fear because of a small group of radical Trump protestors anymore than I was during the riots, looting, and burning of cities over the summer.

Polling shows a majority of republicans support storming the Capitol. This is not a small group. Governors had kidnapping plans against them. Don't keep your head buried in the sand. That's how nazis rose to power.

edit: sorry 45% https://www.news10.com/news/us-capitol-coverage/poll-one-fifth-of-voters-almost-half-of-republicans-agree-with-storming-of-us-capitol/
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: American GenX on January 10, 2021, 02:58:49 PM
I avoid discussing politics with people.  I don't care what other people's opinions are about political policies, whether they are a socialist or a capitalist.

I watched some morning news and am getting to watch some of the NFL playoffs this afternoon putting everything else out of my mind.  I'm not living in fear because of a small group of radical Trump protestors anymore than I was during the riots, looting, and burning of cities over the summer.

Polling shows a majority of republicans support storming the Capitol. This is not a small group. Governors had kidnapping plans against them. Don't keep your head buried in the sand. That's how nazis rose to power.

Uhhh.... you are talking about something completely different vs. what I stated.  I was referring to the group that rushed the Capital building.  So, out of a country the size of the U.S., that's a small group.  I'm not concerned about them coming to my house.

You can live in fear if you choose to, but I will not.  I watched news as recent as this morning - as I stated earlier, so that's far from keeping my head in the sand.  Now, I'm enjoying some football.  I am not going to waste the whole day on news or worrying about things.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: MilesTeg on January 10, 2021, 03:00:11 PM
For my part, we are:

On the emergency preparedness side (mostly in good shape due to COVID vigilance):

1. Ensuring all family vehicles are in good repair, fully fueled and stocked with emergency supplies
2. Ensuring we still have 2-3 months of food on hand (pretty much had that since the beginning of COVID)
3. Refreshing emergency supplies in home (batteries, medicines, etc.)
4. Considering what to do for emergency heating/cooking if it becomes necessary

On the financial side, I don't really know what we will do if anything. If we start seeing more insurrection attempts I can't imagine that would be even remotely good for investments. If it were to get bad enough, it would likely have a big affect the value of the dollar even. While I don't plan to do anything right now I am very glad that we haven't just dumped everything into VTI and USD like is suggested around here by some and instead own things of intrinsic value like metals, real estate, etc.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: jehovasfitness23 on January 10, 2021, 03:01:28 PM
I avoid discussing politics with people.  I don't care what other people's opinions are about political policies, whether they are a socialist or a capitalist.

I watched some morning news and am getting to watch some of the NFL playoffs this afternoon putting everything else out of my mind.  I'm not living in fear because of a small group of radical Trump protestors anymore than I was during the riots, looting, and burning of cities over the summer.

Polling shows a majority of republicans support storming the Capitol. This is not a small group. Governors had kidnapping plans against them. Don't keep your head buried in the sand. That's how nazis rose to power.

Uhhh.... you are talking about something completely different vs. what I stated.  I was referring to the group that rushed the Capital building.  So, out of a country the size of the U.S., that's a small group.  I'm not concerned about them coming to my house.

You can live in fear if you choose to, but I will not.  I watched news as recent as this morning - as I stated earlier, so that's far from keeping my head in the sand.  Now, I'm enjoying some football.  I am not going to waste the whole day on news or worrying about things.

"small group"

You realize there are likely millions of them across the country that are thinking the same as them and when push comes to shove they're not far from doing the same.

again, don't rationalize what we all saw as "small group"
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: maizefolk on January 10, 2021, 03:25:04 PM
Thanks to COVID I'm already set up to not have to leave the house to go to the grocery store for several weeks to a month (though meals would get quite boring towards the end) or leave the house for other reasons for that matter. I also have a bit over a thousand dollars in cash on hand because why not? It's a trivial fraction of my net worth and I might need it someday in a prolonged power outage (more likely) or cyberattack on payment processors (less likely).

More generally, I live in a relatively low density, lower middle class neighborhood -- not the rich part of town rioters would head towards, nor the higher density part of town where protests tend to initially form -- and my guess is that none of my neighbors know who I voted for (and I intent to keep it that way). I try to follow patterns of speech/language to the point I can meet a group of people who are either quite liberal or quite conservative and talk in a way so I don't sound like one of the bad people they're angry at. I think it is likely that this same ability to linguistically/culturally code-switch is what got me out of a speeding ticket/car search when I was pulled over in the middle of the country in a car with California plates years ago. Motivated me to work at it more in the years since.

Oh and I'm FI. That provides a lot more flexibility to make life choices to avoid putting myself into harms way if things get worse.

I certainly hope we don't end up with "severe social upheaval" in the next few months, or any time in my lifetime for that matter.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: Just Joe on January 10, 2021, 03:26:47 PM
Not really too worried. We live among a majority of MAGA supporters which by the way might have been surprised by the events at the Capitol. Our MAGA flag flying neighbor for the past several years has suddenly pulled down his flag. The late comer neighbor who had just started flying a MAGA flag after the elections suddenly pulled down his too.

Have thought about buying a hunting rifle aka 30-06 with scope for some time in case we needed to hunt for dinner. I'm not a hunter. Also a good weapon if we had violent people coming on our rural property BUT shoot one and all their friends are coming back later to make a point. Just isn't going to happen. I'm not shooting, no hotheads coming here. Not really. Better to talk than resort to violence. There are pistols here anyhow.

We DIY alot so we could take care of ourselves in lean times. I'd rather to continue to be a "moderate" to my neighbors than the liberals we really are. Easier for them to get along with us. We chose to not post any Biden signs last year. Wouldn't change any minds anyhow but we didn't invite vandals either.

We have food, fuel, generator, and plenty of transportation. Not sure where we would go except to fetch family and bring them here. We have the most resources and space. Lots of camping gear should walking to Canada or Mexico become important. (Not happening but I'm watching "The Stand" on CBS right now).
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: John Galt incarnate! on January 10, 2021, 03:28:38 PM
Bluntly, I think there is a risk of severe social upheaval within the next weeks or months. Certain elements of our society have demonstrated that they are completely willing to resort to violence to get their way.

While I don't think there is an extreme risk, I think the risk is high enough to warrant some preparedness.

What, if anything, are you doing with your home, your finances, to ensure you and your family's safety, etc.?

During this period of  heightened  political unrest America's governmental architecture of separation of powers, checks and balances, and dispersion of power, in combination with all   of her  long-standing institutions of ordered liberty, preordain only one outcome: America will not falter.

"This too shall pass."

I am not making any changes to my financial position.

I live a million miles from nowhere so there is zero possibility of rioters/looters/vandals/arsonists.

If I lived in a city/neighborhood where this  sort of trouble could erupt I'd  arm myself with a 12-gauge shotgun which I would deploy only  if I faced an actual, imminent threat of being killed.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: bmjohnson35 on January 10, 2021, 04:03:54 PM
I don't plan to do anything remarkably different. I am happy that I don't live in D.C., Detroit, Chicago, New York or some other large densely populated city.  I will avoid engaging in political discussions with strangers, but I generally do that anyway.    I agree that the events of the capital was shocking, but I don't think they represent the majority of Trump supports. There are probably a lot more Americans out there that sympathize with Trump's propoganda, but I don't think they are prepared to start looting or taking up arms to march on government buildings.   

P.S.  I am hoping the new administration will do a better job of managing COVID and improve the efficiency of the vaccination roll-out.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: Kris on January 10, 2021, 04:06:32 PM
What am I doing?

Staying far, far away from Trump supporters.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: Channel-Z on January 10, 2021, 04:31:01 PM
I live in one of those funny states where almost everyone in state government is a Republican... except for the governor. I'm not concerned about that kind of violence here. Drug and domestic violence is far more common.

While we have plenty of people out there with revolutionary hero fantasies, they're also quite lazy. It's easier to complain on Facebook than to take up arms.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: Dibbels81 on January 10, 2021, 04:52:51 PM
Today was a chill day--took a nice long winter walk, grabbed a beer and now I'm watching some football. Tomorrow I'll head to work and then make dinner. I booked a trip to trip to Vegas in March--hopefully thing will be more open by then.

The world is not ending.

EDIT: I tasted my 6 gallon jug of apple wine aging in the chilly attic--I'm worried it may have spoiled. I'm hoping it's just the oak chips giving it a quirky flavor for the moment. I racked it to another container.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: Morning Glory on January 10, 2021, 05:02:46 PM
I am scared to death. I know enough about the runup to the Nazis and other nasty things in history. I don't know what I can do though. My husband thinks I am being foolish.  I've had a rough year.

 I don't think it would help to hoard things or change my asset allocation. I keep a pretty low profile and only talk politics with certain close friends, never on social media.  The area where I live is fairly buttoned up. We had a very peaceful BLM protest in June.

 I/ my family wouldn't be a first target by a long shot, but I worry about friends who would. I have British citizenship but it's not much better there right now.

I don't watch the news too closely. I keep an eye on the headlines and my dad sends me an article sometimes. I don't watch video news at all because seeing Trump is an anxiety trigger for me.

I am not religious but I am praying in my foxhole for a peaceful next ten days. Maybe even an impeachment.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on January 10, 2021, 05:33:18 PM
"The element" as it was put by the OP (the poor & uneducated) in this country has always caused a lot of noise, burned down some crap, beaten up some people, gotten on the news, stolen some TVs, and gotten some politicians to back them over the decades.  But in the past they've never gotten very far because, face it, they are poor and uneducated in America.  I agree this feels different because its a "different" element this time, but I have no doubt will go the same nowhere as usual.

I've been beaten to a pulp by a bunch of angry young poor black men in the past and am sure today it may be a bunch of angry young white men instead, except I got educated and made a little money and moved out of the element since then, out of that crappy poor rural county I grew up in, and stay out of all those violent cities as well.  Other than that I'm gonna just ignore the news.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: Metalcat on January 10, 2021, 06:18:30 PM
I just arrived in SW Florida today, my family was *freaked* that I was coming down here and kept warning me about all the unrest.

Well, where I am is very chill. Excellent mask wearing everywhere, very calm, people seem pretty chill. My friend was like "don't let anyone know you're Canadian! You don't get how bad it is down there right now".

Obviously there's a ton of conflict right now, but the way the news presents it, my friends and family practically thought I was flying into a war zone.

Incidentally, I'm in snow bird territory, so everyone I've spoken to has been like "oh yay! Canadian!! There's so few of you guys here this year, we miss you"

Suffice to say, no riots in the streets and no being accosted for wearing a mask, as my loved ones quite seriously worried about.

I *was* however charged by a giant fucking bird.
Turns out it's a Wood Stork. Fuck they're huge!
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: Fomerly known as something on January 10, 2021, 06:50:38 PM
I just arrived in SW Florida today, my family was *freaked* that I was coming down here and kept warning me about all the unrest.

Well, where I am is very chill. Excellent mask wearing everywhere, very calm, people seem pretty chill. My friend was like "don't let anyone know you're Canadian! You don't get how bad it is down there right now".

Obviously there's a ton of conflict right now, but the way the news presents it, my friends and family practically thought I was flying into a war zone.

Incidentally, I'm in snow bird territory, so everyone I've spoken to has been like "oh yay! Canadian!! There's so few of you guys here this year, we miss you"

Suffice to say, no riots in the streets and no being accosted for wearing a mask, as my loved ones quite seriously worried about.

I *was* however charged by a giant fucking bird.
Turns out it's a Wood Stork. Fuck they're huge!

My sister misses the Canadian Snowbirds, she lives on the Panhandle, you can drive better than the Texans, even those of you who don’t see so well anymore.  BTW, if it gets “cold” watch for iguanas falling out of the trees.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: Kazyan on January 10, 2021, 07:04:21 PM
It's pretty wacky out there, but I'm just going to stay the course of keeping my head down.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: dignam on January 10, 2021, 08:57:58 PM
I live in a state capitol in a swing state and I've been telling people I'm a bit nervous about future unrest.  We saw major damage during BLM protests (yes I know it was likely from individuals who just want to break shit, not necessarily BLM activists), and I wouldn't doubt we'd see major damage done from the trump zealots/cultists.  To top it off, our mayor is absolutely terrible and has no backbone or leadership ability.  Her response to the BLM unrest here was to basically ignore it and let it go away while cop cars were burning in the streets and businesses were being destroyed. I have no idea how she was elected.

Anyway, my plan is to keep my head down, ears sharp and always have an out.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: Just Joe on January 10, 2021, 08:59:20 PM
I don't really expect anything but maybe a real estate bubble to pop at some point. Thus lean times while the economy catches its breath.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: mathlete on January 10, 2021, 09:05:18 PM
It’s morbidly funny to me that violent insurrectionists can storm the capitol, murder a cop, and get within minutes, maybe seconds of putting our elected officials in mortal peril and some people are still like,

“I don’t do politics. Low info diet bro.”

At the very least, you should probably at least concern yourself with the risk free interest rate if your interest in the world begins and ends with FIRE.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: fattest_foot on January 10, 2021, 10:05:40 PM
Some of you people are amazing.

[MOD NOTE: TROLL HAS BEEN BANNED]
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: mathlete on January 10, 2021, 10:10:01 PM
Worthless and stunningly ignorant.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: mathlete on January 10, 2021, 10:20:10 PM
Though I do have to note that “hyperventilating” is an interesting pejorative to use against people with rational concerns about their government in a year that has seen massive excess mortality due to an incompetent government response to a respiratory illness.

Anyone who has studied history or been lucky enough to travel to world should understand that stable governments and economies don’t happen on accident. They require participation. I support taking a walk or chilling out and playing video games or whatever your cup of tea is, as a means of distraction on this. But after you’ve made yourself an informed citizen and called your state and federal reps about this issue.

OP asked what I’m doing. That’s what I’m doing. This stuff is important to me and I don’t care if it ruffles feathers or causes Pete Adney’s website to be a fraction less affiliate friendly. This is the shit that needs to be done.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: fattest_foot on January 10, 2021, 10:24:37 PM
Worthless and stunningly ignorant.

Stunning rebuttal.

[MOD NOTE: TROLL HAS BEEN BANNED]
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: mathlete on January 10, 2021, 10:42:01 PM
Worthless and stunningly ignorant.

Stunning rebuttal.

Do you just not remember Kavanaugh? Maybe because everyone didn't throw a massive hissy fit in the media about how our Democracy was in danger?

HUNDREDS of protestors broke into the Capitol then. Over 300 were arrested. They refused to cooperate with law enforcement and broke into Senators offices.

How was that celebrated as an exercise of First Amendment rights, but this is some kind of massive travesty? Is it because Trump told his supporters to go home, but the media interpreted that as "burn down the city?" I'm honestly curious what you think happened that was egregious.

Evidently I remember Kavanaugh much better than you do. Reading your ignorant mischaracterization of that incident was right around when I decided “worthless” was an apt descriptor.

It was the Hart building, not the Capitol.

They didn’t break in, it’s open to the public.

They did a sit in. They didn’t smash windows, trample someone to death, beat a cop to death, and seek to overturn the results of a legitimate election on this wishes of a lame duck who has been feeding them anti democracy conspiracy theories for months.

And perhaps most notably of all, they were arrested. Their charge? Unlawful assembly. They were allowed in the Hart building. They were allowed to assemble. But not both. So they were arrested. Fair enough.

What an odd comparison.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: mathlete on January 10, 2021, 10:57:01 PM

Edit: I just want you to see the hypocrisy here. And also acknowledge that the technocracy in this country effectively silenced the President.

This is absurd. He’s the president of the United States. He can convene the press pool in the west wing and it will be covered by most major press outlets and likely run on most major networks.

He can write an op Ed that hundreds of newspapers would publish.

The White House can issue press releases and these will be reported on by virtually every news organization in the country.

He’s personal friends with media mogul Rupert Murdoch. He can likely get an hour on Fox any time he wants and reach tens of millions of viewers.

He can put out statements on his personal website.

He can call into syndicated talk radio.

He can send out emails to a mailing list of millions.

He can put out an RSS feed that will auto dump audio to anyone who subscribes.

This is all literally off the top of my head. There are ways to communicate outside of Twitter and Facebook.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: shuffler on January 10, 2021, 10:58:33 PM
The technocracy in this country effectively silenced the President.
Bullshit.  He can hold a press conference any time he's not afraid to stand in front of reporters.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: dang1 on January 10, 2021, 11:12:26 PM
Trump, at the rally, before the violence:

"we’re going to have to fight much harder"
“We’re going to walk down to the Capitol, and we’re going to cheer on our brave senators and congressmen and women, and we’re probably not going to be cheering so much for some of them, because you’ll never take back our country with weakness. You have to show strength, and you have to be strong.”

“When you catch somebody in a fraud, you are allowed to go by very different rules."

“We fight like hell, and if you don’t fight like hell, you’re not going to have a country anymore.”
"we’re going to walk down, and I’ll be there with you. … We are going to the Capitol,"
"give them the kind of pride and boldness that they need to take back our country.”


mob chants of “Hang Mike Pence,” with a gallows erected outside of the Capitol.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: mathlete on January 11, 2021, 12:10:37 AM
The technocracy in this country effectively silenced the President.
Bullshit.  He can hold a press conference any time he's not afraid to stand in front of reporters.

President Trump hasn’t made a public appearance since Wednesday and the White House press secretary hasn’t issued a briefing or remarks since Thursday. It’s crazy how Twitter turned him invisible and literally took away McEnany’s ability to talk ;)

Really though. Trump is making a big deal out of the social media thing (through his congressional and media surrogates) because he’s desperate to talk about anything other than the fact that he riled up supporters with lies about election fraud to the point where they stormed to Capitol looking for blood.

In reality, only 20% of US adults even use Twitter. Just 42% of those use it for politics and only 19% followed the president. The idea that social media has become “the new public forum” is massively oversold.

Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: dang1 on January 11, 2021, 01:35:03 AM
help identify fascist traitors https://mobile.twitter.com/jsrailton/status/1348115530654347266
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: Trifle on January 11, 2021, 02:46:57 AM
Not really too worried. We live among a majority of MAGA supporters which by the way might have been surprised by the events at the Capitol. Our MAGA flag flying neighbor for the past several years has suddenly pulled down his flag. The late comer neighbor who had just started flying a MAGA flag after the elections suddenly pulled down his too.

We've noticed this too!  We live in a rural area with lots of Trump supporters.  All of a sudden -- overnight -- the flags and bumper stickers have disappeared.  It's hopeful I guess.  I like to think at least some of our neighbors are having second thoughts about supporting that evil lunatic. 

ETA:  Lots of church-goers here too, and although they voted for Trump in droves, I really can't see those people supporting the actions of the fascist far-right wing mob last week.  I think a lot of them will abandon Trump now.   
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: jrhampt on January 11, 2021, 05:57:16 AM
What am I doing?

Contacting my congressional representative and senators to demand accountability for the insurrection, whether by 25th, impeachment, censure, disqualification from holding public office, whatever means within their control. 

Other than that, nothing.  There's still a pandemic going on, so the small changes I made to my investment allocation, emergency cash on hand, and stock of toilet paper months ago still stand.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: Paper Chaser on January 11, 2021, 06:32:56 AM
I'm with you. This is long from over. State Capitols will be soon.

We have 1 gun and I've thought about buying another. Other than that, not much else I can do.

I've struggled in the past if I should cut ties with fam and friends that are MAGAs but let it stand. No more. If they don't denounce him I can't be around them.

I think it's safe to say 60-70% of cops are conservatives and a large chunk of that are sympathetic to MAGA world. If stuff devolves too much that will not be good as sides will need to be chosen.

If one is concerned about growing division in society, doesn't "denouncing" friends and family only perpetuate that division? The entire reason people do desperate things is because they already feel like their voice isn't being heard.

Doesn't the fact that you're assuming 60-70% of police are MAGA supporters indicate that you've already divided society in your head, and ensure that "Sides will need to be chosen"? Haven't you already assigned people you've never met to a "side" because of the way that they look, or the job they hold, or where they live? Is a person building a bunker out of fear that they'll be shot any different from a person building a bunker out of fear that their guns will be taken?

Violent acts should be denounced. It's fine to point out things that are untrue and baseless to avoid spreading false information. And there's nothing wrong with eliminating negativity from your life. But responsibility for the division in the US falls on both sides of the aisle refusing to see the humanity in anyone that dares to have a different outlook. We've failed to realize that we often have far more in common with others than we have in difference. We've failed to retain any commonality or shared community. At one point, our differences made us stronger. America was a melting pot and better for it. Now, they weaken us. If you truly want that to change, it starts with you (collective). Talk to some neighbors about their kids or pets. Compliment them on the latest home project they completed, or their new hairstyle, or the band on their shirt. Ask them some questions, and you'll find some things in common pretty fast. Restoring some empathy and understanding of our commonalities is the only way that I see any of this getting any better.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: jehovasfitness23 on January 11, 2021, 06:35:30 AM
Sorry if it's divisive to denounce friends and fam that are still MAGAs, I want to be divided against those that stand for nazis and traitors.

Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: Paper Chaser on January 11, 2021, 06:55:01 AM
Sorry if it's divisive to denounce friends and fam that are still MAGAs, I want to be divided against those that stand for nazis and traitors.

Like any conflict, there are ways to escalate the situation, or de-escalate. I don't see a lot of de-escalation in your words, and if enough people are feeling the same way, then the conflict you fear is almost guaranteed. If you (again collective 'you') truly want to avoid making the conflict worse, I think that requires some introspection. It's like two countries on that are on the path to war  claiming that they want to avoid the conflict, all the while cranking out as many bullets and bombs as they can.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: maizefolk on January 11, 2021, 07:01:00 AM
Sorry if it's divisive to denounce friends and fam that are still MAGAs, I want to be divided against those that stand for nazis and traitors.

Like any conflict, there are ways to escalate the situation, or de-escalate. I don't see a lot of de-escalation in your words, and if enough people are feeling the same way, then the conflict you fear is almost guaranteed.

Well said.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: jehovasfitness23 on January 11, 2021, 07:03:56 AM
Ahh yes, we should be friendly to traitors of this country and bargain with the terrorists.

LOL man some of you.

I'm not saying I want to fight with my fam/friends, I just don't want them in my life if they still support this president. Full stop.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: mathlete on January 11, 2021, 07:16:29 AM
Reconciliation doesn't fall solely on the shoulders of the people who were right about Trump's cruelty and fascist tendencies from the beginning.

Even after insurrectionists were wound up by Trump, broke into the Capitol, and killed people, congress reconvened and over 100 congressmen voted to disenfranchise tens of millions of votes and overturn the results of a legitimate election in order to cater to Trump's baseless tin foil conspiracy theories.

Their constituents can, at any point, start pressuring those congressmen to admit fault and change course.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: Paper Chaser on January 11, 2021, 07:22:51 AM
Ahh yes, we should be friendly to traitors of this country and bargain with the terrorists.

LOL man some of you.

I'm not saying I want to fight with my fam/friends, I just don't want them in my life if they still support this president. Full stop.

I think if you've made an honest effort to communicate with them, and understand why they hold different views than you do, it's fine to avoid contact. But I think as a society, we've pretty much failed to properly communicate for the last few decades, and simply started shouting at each other because taking an empathetic approach to civil disagreement and trying to understand a different viewpoint is a lot more work than just shouting.
The people that stormed the Capitol saw themselves as patriots defending their democracy from traitors. You see yourself as a patriot defending your democracy from traitors. Everybody thinks they're the good guy.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: Trifle on January 11, 2021, 07:25:01 AM
I hear you @jehovasfitness23  -- I too have family members that are Trump supporters.  I'm still processing what's been going on, and struggling with how and if I should move forward with those family members. 

Although I'm very angry and part of me wants to cut them off, I think the wiser course of action for me is to maintain the connections if I can, try to find the common ground that we can, and try to work through it together.  I keep reminding myself that these are good people.  Different than I am, but fundamentally good people.  They are misinformed and scared right now. I'm going to try to be a voice of calm and reason, and demonstrate that not everyone on "the left" hates them. 

I talked with them after the mob violence last week, and they don't think Trump is to blame for it.  But -- they think what the rioters did was terrible.  OK, there's a tiny bit of common ground.  Let's all stay calm and try to build on that.   

And yes @mathlete, totally agree.  My congressman was one of the 100 who voted against the election results.  I have already reached out to his office, and will continue to do so. 
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: jehovasfitness23 on January 11, 2021, 07:27:17 AM
Ahh yes, we should be friendly to traitors of this country and bargain with the terrorists.

LOL man some of you.

I'm not saying I want to fight with my fam/friends, I just don't want them in my life if they still support this president. Full stop.

I think if you've made an honest effort to communicate with them, and understand why they hold different views than you do, it's fine to avoid contact. But I think as a society, we've pretty much failed to properly communicate for the last few decades, and simply started shouting at each other because taking an empathetic approach to civil disagreement and trying to understand a different viewpoint is a lot more work than just shouting.
The people that stormed the Capitol saw themselves as patriots defending their democracy from traitors. You see yourself as a patriot defending your democracy from traitors. Everybody thinks they're the good guy.

It's hard to communicate with those that live in an alternate reality. They are lost souls.

I hear your last point but yeah, it's pretty easy to be anti-fascist and be the good guy.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: mathlete on January 11, 2021, 07:30:17 AM
Ahh yes, we should be friendly to traitors of this country and bargain with the terrorists.

LOL man some of you.

I'm not saying I want to fight with my fam/friends, I just don't want them in my life if they still support this president. Full stop.

I think if you've made an honest effort to communicate with them, and understand why they hold different views than you do, it's fine to avoid contact. But I think as a society, we've pretty much failed to properly communicate for the last few decades, and simply started shouting at each other because taking an empathetic approach to civil disagreement and trying to understand a different viewpoint is a lot more work than just shouting.
The people that stormed the Capitol saw themselves as patriots defending their democracy from traitors. You see yourself as a patriot defending your democracy from traitors. Everybody thinks they're the good guy.

These people are objectively wrong though. The only reason they believe that is because The President, who is typically someone of authority, has been lying to them for years.

Myself and many others have been fighting the battle of, "Don't listen to Trump, he's a demonstrable liar" for five years now. Countless phone conversations with families. Email exchanges. Posts on this and many other forums.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: mathlete on January 11, 2021, 07:45:13 AM
I actually do have sympathy for those that stormed the Capitol. Especially the woman who was shot and killed and the one who was trampled to death. They are clearly confused and yes, probably did hold genuine beliefs that they were saving democracy.

Who I have the biggest problem with, is the ~40% of the country who are presumably rational and right-thinking, but refuse to see the connection between MONTHS of,

"This will be the most fraudelant election of all time,"

"Stop the count!"

"Stop the steal!"

"This was a landslide victory that was stolen from us by our enemies."

"You have to show strength and fight."

"We will not go silently into the night."

"Trial by combat."

And what happened at the Capitol. Empty calls for unity from these folks are completely worthless. The ball is firmly in their court and I'm eagerly waiting for them to clear the lowest bar imaginable. I am an excellent fact-finder. I read a shit ton of fact based original reporting and I do lots of independent research as well. If they want some help coming to the truth, I'm always willing to do that. I don't even care if they've called me a college elitist or a snowflake or "blinded by fake news" in the past. That rolls right of my shoulders. Let's get this done.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: Paper Chaser on January 11, 2021, 07:55:59 AM
Ahh yes, we should be friendly to traitors of this country and bargain with the terrorists.

LOL man some of you.

I'm not saying I want to fight with my fam/friends, I just don't want them in my life if they still support this president. Full stop.

I think if you've made an honest effort to communicate with them, and understand why they hold different views than you do, it's fine to avoid contact. But I think as a society, we've pretty much failed to properly communicate for the last few decades, and simply started shouting at each other because taking an empathetic approach to civil disagreement and trying to understand a different viewpoint is a lot more work than just shouting.
The people that stormed the Capitol saw themselves as patriots defending their democracy from traitors. You see yourself as a patriot defending your democracy from traitors. Everybody thinks they're the good guy.

These people are objectively wrong though. The only reason they believe that is because The President, who is typically someone of authority, has been lying to them for years.

Myself and many others have been fighting the battle of, "Don't listen to Trump, he's a demonstrable liar" for five years now. Countless phone conversations with families. Email exchanges. Posts on this and many other forums.

Agreed. The internet is powerful. It can be used to root out false information in the same way that it can be used to spread disinformation, but it takes work to root it out and confirmation bias is easy. That cuts both ways too. Lots of liberals stay in their liberal bubbles while conservatives stay in theirs.

My overall point, is that whatever the divisive issue is, we've gotten intellectually lazy. Every conflict is now "Us vs them" from both sides because that's easy. Black vs white, rich vs poor, police vs civilian, men vs women, republican vs democrat, gay vs straight, urban vs rural, etc. There's probably a very deep conflict out there somewhere between right handed people and left handed people that I'm just not aware of yet. The only way that any of these conflicts is de-escalated comes when we start to humanize those with differing views rather than disparaging them. You have to be the change you want to see in the world.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: mathlete on January 11, 2021, 08:03:47 AM
I cannot accept "both sides"ing on this. That is also intellectually lazy IMO.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: Paper Chaser on January 11, 2021, 08:13:40 AM
I cannot accept "both sides"ing on this. That is also intellectually lazy IMO.

What "Both sides"-ing? I agree that people were objectively wrong in this case. My point is not who is wrong or not on this specific issue. My point is that we don't come back from this unless we all work at it. There will always be another divisive issue brought to the forefront, and we need to do a better job of diffusing these types of conflict or it will tear us apart.
I guess if suggesting that we could all be more empathetic boils down to "both sides"-ing, then I'm guilty of that.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: ericrugiero on January 11, 2021, 08:31:15 AM
I hear you @jehovasfitness23  -- I too have family members that are Trump supporters.  ...

I talked with them after the mob violence last week, and they don't think Trump is to blame for it.  But -- they think what the rioters did was terrible.  OK, there's a tiny bit of common ground.  Let's all stay calm and try to build on that.   

I live in an area with tons of Trumps supporters.  I've talked to a few and this is representative of what they think.  NOBODY I've talked to thinks it was OK to break into the capitol.  They think it's equivalent to the violence that happened in the BLM protests and are opposed to both.  I even know one person who was at the rally but not near the capitol building.  He said the overall vibe was extremely peaceful and respectful.  I honestly believe the folks who broke in or support that type of action are a very small minority of the Trump supporters. 
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: mathlete on January 11, 2021, 08:34:37 AM
I cannot accept "both sides"ing on this. That is also intellectually lazy IMO.

What "Both sides"-ing? I agree that people were objectively wrong in this case. My point is not who is wrong or not on this specific issue. My point is that we don't come back from this unless we all work at it. There will always be another divisive issue brought to the forefront, and we need to do a better job of diffusing these types of conflict or it will tear us apart.
I guess if suggesting that we could all be more empathetic boils down to "both sides"-ing, then I'm guilty of that.

Myself and millions of others compromised on a more progressive policy agenda to unite behind the "unity and decency" candidate. Listen to Joe Biden's victory speech and weigh it against Trump's Jan 6th speech. Consider that he and his enablers have actively sought to disenfranchise tens of millions of people over the last two months while also completely dropping the ball on vaccine distribution as 10K-20K people a week die of COVID.

I fail to see how "everyone needs to be more empathetic" is the way out here. I agree that it is the pacification route. "Turning the temperature down" will get us through the next few weeks and allow us to focus on more fun things knowing that the country won't burn down. It will also embolden the more Trumpy right to continue trying to delegitimize elections results moving forward. Making peace so we can all watch the NFL playoffs for a couple of weeks is short sighted when I know these people are going to try to take my vote away at some point.

The way out is for anti-democracy people to stop being anti-democracy.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: Kris on January 11, 2021, 08:40:00 AM
I hear you @jehovasfitness23  -- I too have family members that are Trump supporters.  ...

I talked with them after the mob violence last week, and they don't think Trump is to blame for it.  But -- they think what the rioters did was terrible.  OK, there's a tiny bit of common ground.  Let's all stay calm and try to build on that.   

I live in an area with tons of Trumps supporters.  I've talked to a few and this is representative of what they think.  NOBODY I've talked to thinks it was OK to break into the capitol.  They think it's equivalent to the violence that happened in the BLM protests and are opposed to both.  I even know one person who was at the rally but not near the capitol building.  He said the overall vibe was extremely peaceful and respectful.  I honestly believe the folks who broke in or support that type of action are a very small minority of the Trump supporters.

Well, then, I hope they are no longer supporting Trump. Considering Trump incited them to do it.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: Paper Chaser on January 11, 2021, 08:47:41 AM
I cannot accept "both sides"ing on this. That is also intellectually lazy IMO.

What "Both sides"-ing? I agree that people were objectively wrong in this case. My point is not who is wrong or not on this specific issue. My point is that we don't come back from this unless we all work at it. There will always be another divisive issue brought to the forefront, and we need to do a better job of diffusing these types of conflict or it will tear us apart.
I guess if suggesting that we could all be more empathetic boils down to "both sides"-ing, then I'm guilty of that.

Myself and millions of others compromised on a more progressive policy agenda to unite behind the "unity and decency" candidate. Listen to Joe Biden's victory speech and weigh it against Trump's Jan 6th speech. Consider that he and his enablers have actively sought to disenfranchise tens of millions of people over the last two months while also completely dropping the ball on vaccine distribution as 10K-20K people a week die of COVID.

I fail to see how "everyone needs to be more empathetic" is the way out here. I agree that it is the pacification route. "Turning the temperature down" will get us through the next few weeks and allow us to focus on more fun things knowing that the country won't burn down. It will also embolden the more Trumpy right to continue trying to delegitimize elections results moving forward. Making peace so we can all watch the NFL playoffs for a couple of weeks is short sighted when I know these people are going to try to take my vote away at some point.

The way out is for anti-democracy people to stop being anti-democracy.

I'm speaking of any divisive issue more than just Trump. There are many conflicts in the US that beget Trump in the first place, and they'll continue after he's gone. Those conflicts also have the potential to incite violence, danger and major conflict the way that Trump has. And people that are upset about one of those conflicts are often upset about more than one.
The general path is always the same: select a portion of society that feels disenfranchised, find "the others" to blame, De-humanize "the others", focus more on the differences than the commonalities, start shouting, violence. That cycle is pretty clear throughout history. If you're trying to prevent the Nazis again, everybody (Potential nazis included of course) needs to understand that path and how it can be avoided.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: mathlete on January 11, 2021, 08:52:28 AM
I don't know I feel like we're at the point where aggressively combating misinformation is seen as dehumanizing.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: use2betrix on January 11, 2021, 08:56:35 AM
I was a victim of BLM violence while I sat innocently at a restaurant in Charleston last year (broken windows, massive explosion mere feet from where I stood).

Personally, I have enough powerful, high capacity guns, that I am not concerned.. Even during the BLM issues I did not feel unsafe at home.

I also have a fully contained 17’ camping trailer that I could easily hit the road for weeks/months if needed. We just spent several weeks in it over Christmas.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: maizefolk on January 11, 2021, 09:09:44 AM
Myself and millions of others compromised on a more progressive policy agenda to unite behind the "unity and decency" candidate. Listen to Joe Biden's victory speech and weigh it against Trump's Jan 6th speech. Consider that he and his enablers have actively sought to disenfranchise tens of millions of people over the last two months while also completely dropping the ball on vaccine distribution as 10K-20K people a week die of COVID.

I fail to see how "everyone needs to be more empathetic" is the way out here. I agree that it is the pacification route. "Turning the temperature down" will get us through the next few weeks and allow us to focus on more fun things knowing that the country won't burn down. It will also embolden the more Trumpy right to continue trying to delegitimize elections results moving forward. Making peace so we can all watch the NFL playoffs for a couple of weeks is short sighted when I know these people are going to try to take my vote away at some point.

The way out is for anti-democracy people to stop being anti-democracy.

I and millions of others voted for Joe Biden in part because he was the unity and decency candidate, and his victory speech bore out that confidence.

I agree with you that the way out is for the anti-democracy people to stop being anti-democracy. However, in my experience the more people are convinced that "the other side" hates them and could never forgive them, the less likely they are to re-evaluate their current beliefs. Which makes sense when you think about it. If one side is going to hate you no matter what, it is extremely risky to start questioning beliefs that could lead to the other side hating you too.

I cannot force anyone to change their beliefs, but there are actions I can take in my personal and public life to either lower or raise the barriers to others choosing to do so as the evidence that their beliefs were wrong continues to accumulate.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: mathlete on January 11, 2021, 09:18:47 AM
Myself and millions of others compromised on a more progressive policy agenda to unite behind the "unity and decency" candidate. Listen to Joe Biden's victory speech and weigh it against Trump's Jan 6th speech. Consider that he and his enablers have actively sought to disenfranchise tens of millions of people over the last two months while also completely dropping the ball on vaccine distribution as 10K-20K people a week die of COVID.

I fail to see how "everyone needs to be more empathetic" is the way out here. I agree that it is the pacification route. "Turning the temperature down" will get us through the next few weeks and allow us to focus on more fun things knowing that the country won't burn down. It will also embolden the more Trumpy right to continue trying to delegitimize elections results moving forward. Making peace so we can all watch the NFL playoffs for a couple of weeks is short sighted when I know these people are going to try to take my vote away at some point.

The way out is for anti-democracy people to stop being anti-democracy.

I and millions of others voted for Joe Biden in part because he was the unity and decency candidate, and his victory speech bore out that confidence.

I agree with you that the way out is for the anti-democracy people to stop being anti-democracy. However, in my experience the more people are convinced that "the other side" hates them and could never forgive them, the less likely they are to re-evaluate their current beliefs. Which makes sense when you think about it. If one side is going to hate you no matter what, it is extremely risky to start questioning beliefs that could lead to the other side hating you too.

I cannot force anyone to change their beliefs, but there are actions I can take in my personal and public life to either lower or raise the barriers to others choosing to do so as the evidence that their beliefs were wrong continues to accumulate.

Jesus I wish that's where we were. That they wanted forgiveness. But we're 250 miles down the road from even admitting that Trump was a mistake, let alone thinking anything was done that requires forgiveness. This is why I'm against "we need to be more empathetic" right now. It's just a bandaid so that we can watch the superbowl together and forget about our problems.

The right incited a mob to beat a cop to death and over one hundred congresspeople to vote to throw out millions of legally cast votes. They failed this time, but the specter of impropriety will 10,000% be used to make it harder to vote in the next election. We haven't even begun to untangle the mess we're in.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: maizefolk on January 11, 2021, 09:20:25 AM
Jesus I wish that's where we were. That they wanted forgiveness. But we're 250 miles down the road from even admitting that Trump was a mistake, let alone thinking anything was done that requires forgiveness. This is why I'm against "we need to be more empathetic" right now. It's just a bandaid so that we can watch the superbowl together and forget about our problems.

What is your proposed solution to get the people we are discussing to change their political positions, mathlete?

Edit: And specifically what actions to you believe that you and I take to move towards achieve that solution?
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: mathlete on January 11, 2021, 09:24:14 AM
The only tools I have to combat this are my education and fact-based reporting. This has been characterized by the President as stuff of, "The enemy of the people." Countless times. Including last Wednesday.

These people are completely lost in the woods right now and first and foremost, they need to get out and figure out why they were led astray. For my part, I've spent hours this past week writing and calling the congress people who I believe are knowingly leading them astray and imploring them to stop it.

If that qualifies as empathy, then maybe I am being empathetic. But I don't know.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: maizefolk on January 11, 2021, 09:25:28 AM
The only tools I have to combat this are my education and fact-based reporting. This has been characterized by the President as stuff of, "The enemy of the people." Countless times. Including last Wednesday.

These people are completely lost in the woods right now and first and foremost, they need to get out and figure out why they were led astray. For my part, I've spent hours this past week writing and calling the congress people who I believe are knowingly leading them astray and imploring them to stop it.

If that qualifies as empathy, then maybe I am being empathetic. But I don't know.

Okay, that sounds like a quite reasonable approach. Do you feel like anyone in this thread is telling you not to do that? Or saying that it isn't worth doing so?
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: DrinkCoffeeStackMoney on January 11, 2021, 09:31:18 AM
The majority of my big and extended family are conservative Trump supporters and they have very vocally condemned what happened at the Capitol. So all MAGA's/conservatives/republicans can't be lumped into the same pool as the crazy bastards who incite violence.

With that being said, my wife and I have guns and are trained to use them, cash, plenty of food, etc.
We are as prepared as we can be for anything without being crazy about it. No one is going to overthrow this country at this time, especially a bunch of untrained (for the most part) wanna-be solder militia boys. If there were actually a civil war started a bunch of rednecks with AR-15's would be no match to our military or any military brought in as support, and that's a fact. So everyone preaching "give me liberty or give me death', death is what you would receive.
I have zero worries about these guys.

As far as our money; we're making no changes and staying the course. Even if something crazy did happen it won't last long and the market will come back as it always does.

Just my two cents.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: mathlete on January 11, 2021, 09:31:43 AM
The only tools I have to combat this are my education and fact-based reporting. This has been characterized by the President as stuff of, "The enemy of the people." Countless times. Including last Wednesday.

These people are completely lost in the woods right now and first and foremost, they need to get out and figure out why they were led astray. For my part, I've spent hours this past week writing and calling the congress people who I believe are knowingly leading them astray and imploring them to stop it.

If that qualifies as empathy, then maybe I am being empathetic. But I don't know.

Okay, that sounds like a quite reasonable approach. Do you feel like anyone in this thread is telling you not to do that? Or saying that it isn't worth doing so?

I feel like calls for "empathy on all sides" is pretty ambiguous solution that is more likely to lead to temporary pacification, with long term consequences being paid for mostly by people who aren't privileged enough to pursue FIRE.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: maizefolk on January 11, 2021, 09:34:28 AM
Okay, that sounds like a quite reasonable approach. Do you feel like anyone in this thread is telling you not to do that? Or saying that it isn't worth doing so?

I feel like calls for "empathy on all sides" is pretty ambiguous solution that is more likely to lead to temporary pacification, with long term consequences being paid for mostly by people who aren't privileged enough to pursue FIRE.

It would help me if you could point to a specific post or posts that you're referring to. One of mine? Someone elses?

Do you feel like calls for empathy and fact-based education are inherently in conflict with each other? I certainly don't, but I am interested to hear your take on it.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: Rhinodad on January 11, 2021, 09:50:07 AM
I find one of the dumbest statements is the "I'm going to unite the country." No, no you are not. You are going to try and pass your agenda, whether the other side agrees with you or not. If I think $15/hr minimum wage is a terrible policy, or agree with the wall, or think our corporate tax structure, or environmental standards are fine...how is he going to unite me? He's not, so I would wish all politicians would stop saying that non-sense, and those that vote for them wouldn't say such pablum. If you vote, you vote for the politician you mostly agree with, and you want the agenda they espoused,  passed. It's really that simple. You may have voted for them because you found them the most ELECTABLE, but not due to unity.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: CodingHare on January 11, 2021, 09:54:28 AM
Regarding investments: No change.  The stock market will be fine, as usual.

Regarding the country: I don't know.  We live in a solid blue state, so I can't help vote out dangerous disinformation (a word I hate, we already have a perfectly good word for spreading "disinformation", it's called LYING) spreading senators like Hawley and Cruz.  I will continue donating money to the DNC to unseat them and their like.  I think we need enough Democrats in the government to actually start passing agenda instead of sitting on bills ala McConnell.  Our only way forward is to make the lives of all American's better--no matter how much they scream about hating Obamacare (but they like their ACA plan.)

"Bipartisan government."  "Unity."  "Have empathy for the other side."  Sounds good, when are the Republicans going to start?  We scrapped the public option and passed Romney's healthcare nationally. We were called communists for it, and the other side ran on REPEAL AND REPLACE.  Replace with what?  They never told us.  Replace with nothing, it turned out.  And they couldn't even do that with a Republican majority.  When are the Republicans going to apologize for calling us radical socialist?  When are they going to commit to not smearing the Democrats with their "Leftist" agenda?

Remember when Republicans said that gay marriage would destroy the family and cause more child rape?  I do.  But I don't remember them coming out after it was passed to say, "Oh... that never happened... guess we were wrong about that and the Democrats were right."  That's pretty damn easy to verify as incorrect based on years of data since Obergefell v Hodges, what's the hold up?  Don't Republican's want unity and empathy?

Hey, do you remember when Republicans said, "Oh my gosh, an unarmed sleeping woman was murdered in her own home and her partner was jailed for trying to defend his home from plainclothes invaders?  They had the right to stand their ground, let's get justice for them!"  Oh wait, no, they continued trying to press charges against the survivor and protect Breonna Taylor's murderers.  But a couple of yahoos waving guns at people not even on their property? McCloskeys need to speak at the RNC!  Seems pretty empathetic of the Republicans huh? /s

Where in the middle should we meet these people?  They hate us.  They lie about anyone further left than Mitt Romney (and a little about him, too.)  They call us communists, socialists, radicals, and extremists no matter what policy we put out.  Here's my idea, how about the right meet us in the middle.  How about they promise to stop lying to the public, for a start.  How about they admit that they were wrong to lie about the election, providing fuel for Trump's rioters.  How about they debate legislation on its merits instead of calling its organizers unpatriotic communists.

Democrats have tried empathy.  It doesn't work.  Let's try consequences instead.

"Meet me in the middle," said the dishonest man. "Ok," said his friend, and took one step towards the dishonest man.  The dishonest man takes two steps backwards.  "Meet me in the middle."
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: jehovasfitness23 on January 11, 2021, 09:57:00 AM
Regarding investments: No change.  The stock market will be fine, as usual.

Regarding the country: I don't know.  We live in a solid blue state, so I can't help vote out dangerous disinformation (a word I hate, we already have a perfectly good word for spreading "disinformation", it's called LYING) spreading senators like Hawley and Cruz.  I will continue donating money to the DNC to unseat them and their like.  I think we need enough Democrats in the government to actually start passing agenda instead of sitting on bills ala McConnell.  Our only way forward is to make the lives of all American's better--no matter how much they scream about hating Obamacare (but they like their ACA plan.)

"Bipartisan government."  "Unity."  "Have empathy for the other side."  Sounds good, when are the Republicans going to start?  We scrapped the public option and passed Romney's healthcare nationally. We were called communists for it, and the other side ran on REPEAL AND REPLACE.  Replace with what?  They never told us.  Replace with nothing, it turned out.  And they couldn't even do that with a Republican majority.  When are the Republicans going to apologize for calling us radical socialist?  When are they going to commit to not smearing the Democrats with their "Leftist" agenda?

Remember when Republican's said that gay marriage would destroy the family and cause more child rape?  I do.  But I don't remember them coming out after it was passed to say, "Oh... that never happened... guess we were wrong about that and the Democrats were right."  That's pretty damn easy to verify as incorrect based on years of data since Obergefell v Hodges, what's the hold up?  Don't Republican's want unity and empathy?

Hey, do you remember when Republicans said, "Oh my gosh, an unarmed sleeping woman was murdered in her own home and her partner was jailed for trying to defend his home from plainclothes invaders?  They had the right to stand their ground, let's get justice for them!"  Oh wait, no, they continued trying to press charges against the survivor and protect Breonna Taylor's murderers.  But a couple of yahoos waving guns at people not even on their property? McCloskeys need to speak at the RNC!  Seems pretty empathetic of the Republicans huh? /s

Where in the middle should we meet these people?  They hate us.  They lie about anyone further left than Mitt Romney (and a little about him, too.)  They call us communists, socialists, radicals, and extremists no matter what policy we put out.  Here's my idea, how about the right meet us in the middle.  How about they promise to stop lying to the public, for a start.  How about they admit that they were wrong to lie about the election, providing fuel for Trump's rioters.  How about they debate legislation on its merits instead of calling its organizers unpatriotic communists.

Democrats have tried empathy.  It doesn't work.  Let's try consequences instead.

"Meet me in the middle," said the dishonest man. "Ok," said his friend, and took one step towards the dishonest man.  The dishonest man takes two steps backwards.  "Meet me in the middle."

Not sure this forum has a like button, but here's a like for your whole comment. Anything less is intellectually lazy or dishonest to call for otherwise.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: mathlete on January 11, 2021, 10:00:44 AM
Okay, that sounds like a quite reasonable approach. Do you feel like anyone in this thread is telling you not to do that? Or saying that it isn't worth doing so?

I feel like calls for "empathy on all sides" is pretty ambiguous solution that is more likely to lead to temporary pacification, with long term consequences being paid for mostly by people who aren't privileged enough to pursue FIRE.

It would help me if you could point to a specific post or posts that you're referring to. One of mine? Someone elses?

Do you feel like calls for empathy and fact-based education are inherently in conflict with each other? I certainly don't, but I am interested to hear your take on it.

Yourself and Paper Chaser seem to be poking in that direction. I'm not trying to call you guys out because I think you're both great and I appreciate the perspective.

But what does unity and empathy mean right now? In the national discussion, right now it means forgive and forget. I think that's a horrible idea. I think removing Trump and censuring the representatives who voted for disenfranchisement is a good start but I'm willing to entertain other consequences as long as they aren't, "no consequences."

Joe Biden is the defacto leader of the Democratic party. I see a lot of allusions to violence around BLM protests (93% of Summer protests were non violent, but that's neither here nor there). Joe Biden didn't incite violence. The violence happened as a result of civil unrest driven by bias in the justice system. Even so, destroying property and becoming violent is bad. You can google around and find countless statements of Biden condemning the violence and the rioting from the Summer. His policing reform platform is very explicitly not ACAB or defund the police. In fact, he calls for more police funding. Here's a good article on Biden's (and thus, the Democratic party's) plan to unify on the issue of policing and make progress.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/01/11/biden-police-reform/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/01/11/biden-police-reform/)

Unlike violence at BLM protests, the violence at the capitol was very explicitly incited by a political party leader. He made one or two very impotent calls to end the rioting, but also called the rioters patriots and special people. (Contrast this with Colin Kaepernick, who is a "son of a bitch" who got run out of the NFL by the President for kneeling during the anthem.) He also spoke out of both sides of his mouth by repeating the lies that incited the violence in the first place and made excuses for the violence,

Quote
These are the things and events that happen when a sacred landslide election victory is so unceremoniously & viciously stripped away from great patriots who have been badly & unfairly treated for so long. Go home with love & peace. Remember this day forever!

And while Biden at least tries to thread the needle of supporting the need for police reform while condemning tangential violence that happens during protests, please note that Officer Sicknick was beaten to death by rioters incited by the president 5 days ago, and the President has yet to make a statement on it.

In the simplest terms, much of the country has lined up behind the approaches of one of these two men. I think it's a mistake to say that lack of empathy from those trying to adhere to the Biden approach even makes the shortlist of issues here.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: Kris on January 11, 2021, 10:10:42 AM
Accountability first.

Then empathy.

Still waiting on #1.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: mathlete on January 11, 2021, 10:28:42 AM
I am not an unreasonable person. I expressly feel bad for the misguided people who stormed the capitol. I don't go around in my everyday life trying to scream at and shame Trump supporters.  I was terse with fattest_foot earlier, because that's my posting style. Maybe I should do better, but anyone who followed that conversation can see that the facts were clearly on my side. I'm not going to pretend that someone else's argument has equal merit when it's clear that I've outread them by a factor of ten on the issue.

My father is a Trump supporter and I have a good relationship with him. I have coworkers who are Trump supporters, including one who rather obnoxiously brings irrelevant Fox News talking points into almost every meeting, and yet I do my job and engage with them professionally.

My rough choices for president during the primary were, Warren-Sanders-Mayor Pete-Harris-Biden. Warren bombed. Part of it was sexism, but a lot of it was just plain bad campaigning. I sucked it up and backed Sanders who got C R U S H E D by Biden, whom I very enthusiastically voted for in November. So I'm more than willing to compromise on a lot of my progressive ideas.

I have a republican congressperson. And though I very strongly support raising taxes on the rich, protecting abortion rights, and guaranteeing healthcare for poor people, I have never once contacted his office about those things. Because those issues were on the ballot. I voted for the candidate who supported those things and I lost because my fellow voters disagreed with me. I accept that. So it would be unreasonable to call my rep and start expecting him to sing the praises of planned parenthood.

That said, I've contacted his office probably a dozen times over the past two years. Each time was about truth or democratic norms. Things we should all agree on.

But I can't compromise to the point where lies are truth and that trying to disenfranchise people is something a healthy democracy can look the other way on.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: maizefolk on January 11, 2021, 10:54:50 AM
Yourself and Paper Chaser seem to be poking in that direction. I'm not trying to call you guys out because I think you're both great and I appreciate the perspective.

But what does unity and empathy mean right now? In the national discussion, right now it means forgive and forget. I think that's a horrible idea. I think removing Trump and censuring the representatives who voted for disenfranchisement is a good start but I'm willing to entertain other consequences as long as they aren't, "no consequences."

I disagree with you that empathy means forgive and forget for the perpetrators (both the ones who stormed congress and the congresspeople and president who encouraged them). I'm sad to read that my posts have made you view me as leaning in the direction of no consequences. If it helps, I can honestly state: the people who broke into congress should be arrested, given trials, convicted (which should be quite easy with the wealth of evidence they themselves collected, streamed, and posted) and sent to prison. The leaders in congress (people like Hawley and Cruz) should be expelled.

But at the same time, I am happy to read stories of people like those described up thread who took down Trump or MAGA flags in the wake of the capitol occupation, even knowing that they likely voted for Trump in '16 and '20 yes. I do intend to forgive and forget when it comes to voters who change their minds, even if we still disagree on genuine political issues, if we agree on the fundamental truth that the outcome of elections need to be honored in this country. I think the way Biden framed that in his victory speech was very effective.

But let's get back to your post:

Quote
And while Biden at least tries to thread the needle of supporting the need for police reform while condemning tangential violence that happens during protests, please note that Officer Sicknick was beaten to death by rioters incited by the president 5 days ago, and the President has yet to make a statement on it.

In the simplest terms, much of the country has lined up behind the approaches of one of these two men. I think it's a mistake to say that lack of empathy from those trying to adhere to the Biden approach even makes the shortlist of issues here.

Here I feel a bit like we are talking in circles. I am in complete agreement with you about what a bad president (and person) Trump is. I am in complete agreement with you that people who beat a police officer to death deserve to be in prison. But once we expand from the people who perpetrated these acts, and the leaders who encouraged these acts to the what, 80M people who still approve of Trump* we do need to wean many of them off their current, false, understanding of the world. We cannot send tens of millions of people to prison. Short of an actual civil war with people dying, the sole options I see are 1) reintegrate them into society 2) give in to their demands. I'm not willing to accept either an actual civil war, or living in the world Trump/Hawley/Cruz would create if allowed to continue unchecked. So persuading is the only option I see open to me. Do you see a 4th option? If so, what does it look like?

I agree with you that fact based education and fact based news reporting helps in working towards that goal.

What I don't see is how calling out what it appears to me that you see as an excessive focus on empathy rather than condemnation for these voters gets us closer to reducing that number. I have at least explained why I believe that it actually makes it harder for us to shrink their number over time. But even if I'm wrong and it doesn't help, I still don't understand how someone could believe that it would hurt.

*If I'm doing the math from opinion polling right. If you'd rather look at voters rather than the US population as a whole, maybe it's closer to 40M? The number who approve of storming the capital is perhaps 20 or 10 million using the same math and opinion polls, which is a frighteningly large number.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: Paper Chaser on January 11, 2021, 10:56:39 AM
Lots of angry posts focused on national level politics, who should be blamed, and how they should be punished. I get anger. But is that productive on a personal level? How does being angry about this thing help us prevent the next one, or the one that is actually the root of all of this? Sure, you can punish people, and I'm on board with that. But is being angry making your life better, or is it just affecting the way you see other Americans? How does that change the likelihood of some disenfranchised faction of society becoming militarized again in the future? Getting one half of the country to ram legislation or politicians through that the other half doesn't want hasn't worked at any point, and it isn't going to solve this. The real issue at the root of all of these conflicts is that neither side is trying to find common ground. We're trying to break "the other guy's" will. Guess what, if you go looking for enemies, you'll probably find them. But taking the time to learn a bit about your enemy makes them less likely to be your enemy in the first place.

What can you control, and what can you not control? I cannot control the number of people in Washington whose politics most closely resemble mine. All I can do is vote, and hope to get lucky for my direct representation. I cannot control what politicians do after they're voted in. All I can do is vote them out or vote to keep them in. I can focus on my own circle of influence. I can work to avoid the spreading of lies, and I can speak out against violence. I can try to actively spread the truth without preaching. I can run for local political office if I were so inclined. I can control how I view the people that I interact with every day, and I can work to avoid stereotyping them or viewing them as anything other than humans. I can be kind to them (or at least civil), regardless of our differences (whatever they may be). I can try to strengthen relationships that have gotten strained or gone absent in recent months due to lack of social outlets, constant exposure to negative news, and plenty of external stress. That's my plan. Control what I can control, and try to make my life better by being a decent person to those around me rather than an antagonist.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: jehovasfitness23 on January 11, 2021, 11:02:07 AM
In the words of Josh Holmes, former chief of staff to Mitch McConnell: If you're not in a white hot rage over what happened by now you're not paying attention.

https://twitter.com/HolmesJosh/status/1348338328232464384
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: ericrugiero on January 11, 2021, 11:21:51 AM
The scary thing right now is that there is such a large number of people on both sides who have such a level of righteous indignation they are willing to do things that they wouldn't normally do.  It's a mixture of "they started it" and "they are so evil that the ends justify the means". 

The right thinks that the left just stole an election by perpetrating mass voter fraud. 

The left thinks Trump is an evil racist Nazi who is willing to do anything to stay in power and his followers MIGHT be marginally better. 

Both sides are very disenfranchised with the other.  I don't think we will have civil war because it's to hard to line up the other side and be clear who "THEY" are long enough to fight.  But, we are reaching the point where some on both sides would be willing to pull the trigger if they knew who to target.  The current government is so corrupt that many don't have any faith in them to fix the issues. 
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: jehovasfitness23 on January 11, 2021, 11:29:13 AM
The scary thing right now is that there is such a large number of people on both sides who

stop with the both sides crap. full stop
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: maizefolk on January 11, 2021, 11:50:00 AM
In the words of Josh Holmes, former chief of staff to Mitch McConnell: If you're not in a white hot rage over what happened by now you're not paying attention.

Did you ever read Dune? Weird book. I like some parts of it but not others. Anyway, in Dune one of the marks of a human being is the ability to restrain our instinctive reactions when we know at an intellectual level that our instictive reactions will produce outcomes we don't desire.

I assure you I am extremely angry about what happened on Wednesday. That anger just doesn't absolve me of the responsibility to act in ways that work towards the outcomes I desire in the world.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: seattlecyclone on January 11, 2021, 12:01:58 PM
Okay, that sounds like a quite reasonable approach. Do you feel like anyone in this thread is telling you not to do that? Or saying that it isn't worth doing so?

I feel like calls for "empathy on all sides" is pretty ambiguous solution that is more likely to lead to temporary pacification, with long term consequences being paid for mostly by people who aren't privileged enough to pursue FIRE.

It would help me if you could point to a specific post or posts that you're referring to. One of mine? Someone elses?

Do you feel like calls for empathy and fact-based education are inherently in conflict with each other? I certainly don't, but I am interested to hear your take on it.

I'm all for fact-based education and empathy and reintegration too. We need to be clear about who needs to do the work to reintegrate. Without that clarity, the assumption is that we all need to do work and meet in the middle somewhere. On some issues that is perfectly reasonable. On others it is not.

When one side says "accept the certified election results" and the other side says "reject the certified election results," the correct thing is not to compromise on "sometimes accept the certified election results." No. The people who have worked to overrule the voters need to come to the realization that their behavior is unacceptable and change. The onus is on them in this regard. If there's anything I can do to point them to a resource that will help them on that path I'm happy to do so, but I feel like at some point everyone has had ample opportunity to read about whether elections are a good thing or not and any of my efforts to explain this will be in vain.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: jehovasfitness23 on January 11, 2021, 12:09:14 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/11/trump-protests-us-states-fbi-alert-state-capitols

Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: maizefolk on January 11, 2021, 12:10:28 PM
When one side says "accept the certified election results" and the other side says "reject the certified election results," the correct thing is not to compromise on "sometimes accept the certified election results." No. The people who have worked to overrule the voters need to come to the realization that their behavior is unacceptable and change. The onus is on them in this regard. If there's anything I can do to point them to a resource that will help them on that path I'm happy to do so, but I feel like at some point everyone has had ample opportunity to read about whether elections are a good thing or not and any of my efforts to explain this will be in vain.

This is a fair point, but I do want to clarify that empathy is not the same thing as compromise. Compromising is saying it's sometimes okay to reject the results of an election. Empathy is saying:

"The best way we can show respect for the voters who are upset is by telling them the truth. That's the burden. That's the duty of leadership. The truth is President-elect Biden won the election. President Trump lost. I've had that experience myself. it's no fun."

It is not compromising on the facts or the outcomes. It is simply acknowledging that it's no fun to lose, and that is can be comforting to cling to falsehoods. It doesn't tell voters who believe these things that they are bad people, simply that they are wrong.

I understand it can be satisfying to point out how in the wrong those voters are, and say things like "the onus is on them." In a fair world that would be true. But if the onus is on them and they don't take it, what outcome are we looking at? For me, the outcomes if the people who should be doing the work don't do it are bad enough that I'm willing to do more work than is really fair to make it easier and less scary for people to abandon false ideas.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: CodingHare on January 11, 2021, 12:11:59 PM
The scary thing right now is that there is such a large number of people on both sides who have such a level of righteous indignation they are willing to do things that they wouldn't normally do.  It's a mixture of "they started it" and "they are so evil that the ends justify the means". 

The right thinks that the left just stole an election by perpetrating mass voter fraud. 

The left thinks Trump is an evil racist Nazi who is willing to do anything to stay in power and his followers MIGHT be marginally better. 

Both sides are very disenfranchised with the other.  I don't think we will have civil war because it's to hard to line up the other side and be clear who "THEY" are long enough to fight.  But, we are reaching the point where some on both sides would be willing to pull the trigger if they knew who to target.  The current government is so corrupt that many don't have any faith in them to fix the issues.

Ah yes, like that time BLM and the women's marches stormed the Capital to out a candidate they didn't like... Oh wait, that was when the women's marchers peacefully knit pink hats to march and BLM has met with the national guard already pre deployed.

The right believes a lie based on liars lying to them, therefore they are encouraging people with guns to overthrow a democratic election based on no evidence.

The left believes the right is becoming overtly radicalized and violent based on... the right's own actions.  They are calling for the legal procedures to censure and respond to domestic terrorism and sedition to be enforced.

Totally the same, those leftists must need to back off on that "righteous indignation."  Why ever are those on the left pointing out the clear sequence of events that means the right started it?

This is a great example of the double standards I think the left as a whole is really tired of.  It's the equivalent of two kids, one breaks the family vase, and going to mom, "Well, sibling shouldn't have tattled on me, doesn't she share the blame?"  The "moderate" compromise outcome of punishing both kids for one's behavior is unfair.  It will not result in unity.  It will result in resentment at the uneven treatment.  It already has.  To use the Bible, this is equivalent to the story of slicing the baby in half to satisfy both mothers.  The real mom is going to be horrified at the compromise.

But as people here are saying, being angry alone doesn't produce outcomes.  Anger is useful when it motivates you to achieve outcomes.

So I will contact my representatives to ask them to impeach Trump.  I will donate to political causes I agree with.  I will engage in debate so long as it looks like the people I am talking to are willing to change their minds.  I will continue disengaging from people who use ad hominum attacks against me for my political view (no one in this thread, but IRL.)  I will continue voting in every election I can.  And I will keep pointing out hypocrisy when I see it, including both-sides-isms.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: dreadmoose on January 11, 2021, 12:37:27 PM
@maizefolk

I'm impressed with how you've tackled this thread.

I don't have much to add outside that kudos. Focussing on moving past the Us vs Them argument is a noble cause, and one I wish more people would try and tackle. The divisiveness of always identifying an Other to hate and blame seems lost on way too many people, and the admittedly harder steps it takes to empathize with "them" in any avenue should be applauded.

If anyone knows for sure they are 100% right about something then they should have a good footing to understand how frustrated the other side is when they think they're 100% right. The world works in shades of grey, not absolutes.

Caveat for those that need it: The attack on the capital was insane, wrong and unprecedented. I am Canadian so have less invested in the exact topic but know that from the outside lots of the world is lumping America into its own "Them" category, which includes everyone there... Seems a bit unfair no?

Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: mathlete on January 11, 2021, 12:42:58 PM
Lots of angry posts focused on national level politics, who should be blamed, and how they should be punished. I get anger. But is that productive on a personal level? How does being angry about this thing help us prevent the next one, or the one that is actually the root of all of this? Sure, you can punish people, and I'm on board with that. But is being angry making your life better, or is it just affecting the way you see other Americans? How does that change the likelihood of some disenfranchised faction of society becoming militarized again in the future? Getting one half of the country to ram legislation or politicians through that the other half doesn't want hasn't worked at any point, and it isn't going to solve this. The real issue at the root of all of these conflicts is that neither side is trying to find common ground. We're trying to break "the other guy's" will. Guess what, if you go looking for enemies, you'll probably find them. But taking the time to learn a bit about your enemy makes them less likely to be your enemy in the first place.

Anger, or more accurately, concern is useful because it motivates me to participate in electoral politics. I've made two calls to the offices of Republican officials just today trying to establish if we have common ground on the idea that people should be able to vote and have their votes counted.

That's a pretty basic thing but thus far, the answer appears to be "no", we don't have common ground on this. I'll keep trying, but my next step is to convince the rest of the electorate that around 50% of the Federal Republican caucus (and many state officials) are rabidly anti democracy and should not be considered for re-election.

Early on in this thread, some posters were stressing the, "unplug and tune it out" approach. A MMM style glorification of ignorance. MY first post was actually one that pushed back against that. Everyone is free to choose how they respond to stuff like this, but as I mentioned earlier, a stable and just democracy is not an immutable fact of nature. There is no law that says that general human welfare always gets better over time. It takes work. If one chooses to ignore major issues like this because it likely won't affect VTI or VGSAX all that much and change your FIRE date, that's one's prerogative. But I'll never be shy about saying that those who do that represent massive deadweight that must be carried by informed and engaged citizens.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: Pigeon on January 11, 2021, 12:44:00 PM
I'm not really doing anything other than contacting my elected officials.  I don't believe guns lead anywhere positive, so I'm not arming myself to the teeth.  I'm not changing my investment strategy.  I have plenty of food in the house, but I'm not going all prepper any time soon.

I'm done with believing people who support Trump are good people.  They aren't.  I have one or two in my family and have come to the point where I don't think anyone who supports him is a good person, whether or not I happen to love the person in question.  We have already engaged in enough political conversation where I know they will never recognize the systemic racism and inequality that exists in this country.  We exchange polite, occasional pleasantries via text or email, and that's as much contact as I can stand, because they make me sick to my stomach.  In my case, the Trump lovers aren't poor, disadvantaged or uneducated.  They aren't even the type to have participated in the insurrection themselves.  But we're done as far as I'm concerned.  I'm not interested in discussing what they think about it because I don't want to hear the "both side" crap again.

Re all the people mentioning neighbors taking down Trump signs, call me cynical.  I think they are just laying low for now.  I don't believe for a minute they've learned a thing or are really taking the armed insurrection to heart.  Sure, it's probably a little embarrassing for the moment, but they'll be shuffling right back in line behind Ted Cruz or whatever viper takes Trump's place.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: alcon835 on January 11, 2021, 12:49:36 PM
@
The scary thing right now is that there is such a large number of people on both sides who have such a level of righteous indignation they are willing to do things that they wouldn't normally do.  It's a mixture of "they started it" and "they are so evil that the ends justify the means". 

The right thinks that the left just stole an election by perpetrating mass voter fraud. 

The left thinks Trump is an evil racist Nazi who is willing to do anything to stay in power and his followers MIGHT be marginally better. 

Both sides are very disenfranchised with the other.  I don't think we will have civil war because it's to hard to line up the other side and be clear who "THEY" are long enough to fight.  But, we are reaching the point where some on both sides would be willing to pull the trigger if they knew who to target.  The current government is so corrupt that many don't have any faith in them to fix the issues.

Ah yes, like that time BLM and the women's marches stormed the Capital to out a candidate they didn't like... Oh wait, that was when the women's marchers peacefully knit pink hats to march and BLM has met with the national guard already pre deployed.

The right believes a lie based on liars lying to them, therefore they are encouraging people with guns to overthrow a democratic election based on no evidence.

The left believes the right is becoming overtly radicalized and violent based on... the right's own actions.  They are calling for the legal procedures to censure and respond to domestic terrorism and sedition to be enforced.

Totally the same, those leftists must need to back off on that "righteous indignation."  Why ever are those on the left pointing out the clear sequence of events that means the right started it?

This is a great example of the double standards I think the left as a whole is really tired of.  It's the equivalent of two kids, one breaks the family vase, and going to mom, "Well, sibling shouldn't have tattled on me, doesn't she share the blame?"  The "moderate" compromise outcome of punishing both kids for one's behavior is unfair.  It will not result in unity.  It will result in resentment at the uneven treatment.  It already has.  To use the Bible, this is equivalent to the story of slicing the baby in half to satisfy both mothers.  The real mom is going to be horrified at the compromise.

But as people here are saying, being angry alone doesn't produce outcomes.  Anger is useful when it motivates you to achieve outcomes.

So I will contact my representatives to ask them to impeach Trump.  I will donate to political causes I agree with.  I will engage in debate so long as it looks like the people I am talking to are willing to change their minds.  I will continue disengaging from people who use ad hominum attacks against me for my political view (no one in this thread, but IRL.)  I will continue voting in every election I can.  And I will keep pointing out hypocrisy when I see it, including both-sides-isms.

Careful with revisionist history. Kenosha and Minneapolis were literally burned down. Cities all over the US had businesses broken into, robbed, and destroyed.

Yes, I am clear on the difference between the BLM protests and the BLM riots, but to say the left has been completely peaceful over the last 12 months while the right has been violent and destructive is just wrong. The destruction and rioting was promoted by people who are currently condemning the riots on the right.

The President should absolutely be condemned, impeached, and prosecuted. The crazies who attacked Congress to stop the counts should, 100% be condemned and prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Everything done last week was terrible and should be responded to with the full force of the law. But taking action against and agreeing on the horrors on the right does not mean the horrors on the left are non-existent.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: kite on January 11, 2021, 01:02:03 PM
I'm still trying to avoid catching or inadvertently spreading Covid.  There were 4000 other people who died on Wednesday from the virus. That's absolutely the bigger threat to me by every metric.
I worked in 1 WTC twenty years ago and was on my way into the building when a bunch of terrorists, angry with the way things were going in my country, killed some of my colleagues and friends. I saw the planes, the bodies of my coworkers, and witnessed the buildings collapse with my own eyes. Live, in person. Not on television.  It's something of a random fluke that I wasn't already inside and doomed to die like so many people I knew. It sticks with me.  In the years since, I've learned was that there is no purpose to sitting and viewing it all on-screen, over and over, endlessly debating and fomenting anger at those responsible or at those who share similar viewpoints with those responsible.
The events of Wednesday aren't unprecedented.  Violent acts of terrorism have happened before.  And even if that mob had succeeded in the most devastating of their plans, the certification of the electoral votes would still have happened.  Terrorism never achieves support for the terrorists' objectives.  It gets near universal condemnation and a backlash. 
America is not on the precipice.  We've just had an election. The people have spoken and the will of the people is being carried out. 
Wear your mask. Keep your distance. Get your vaccines.
 
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: Kris on January 11, 2021, 01:22:09 PM
@
The scary thing right now is that there is such a large number of people on both sides who have such a level of righteous indignation they are willing to do things that they wouldn't normally do.  It's a mixture of "they started it" and "they are so evil that the ends justify the means". 

The right thinks that the left just stole an election by perpetrating mass voter fraud. 

The left thinks Trump is an evil racist Nazi who is willing to do anything to stay in power and his followers MIGHT be marginally better. 

Both sides are very disenfranchised with the other.  I don't think we will have civil war because it's to hard to line up the other side and be clear who "THEY" are long enough to fight.  But, we are reaching the point where some on both sides would be willing to pull the trigger if they knew who to target.  The current government is so corrupt that many don't have any faith in them to fix the issues.

Ah yes, like that time BLM and the women's marches stormed the Capital to out a candidate they didn't like... Oh wait, that was when the women's marchers peacefully knit pink hats to march and BLM has met with the national guard already pre deployed.

The right believes a lie based on liars lying to them, therefore they are encouraging people with guns to overthrow a democratic election based on no evidence.

The left believes the right is becoming overtly radicalized and violent based on... the right's own actions.  They are calling for the legal procedures to censure and respond to domestic terrorism and sedition to be enforced.

Totally the same, those leftists must need to back off on that "righteous indignation."  Why ever are those on the left pointing out the clear sequence of events that means the right started it?

This is a great example of the double standards I think the left as a whole is really tired of.  It's the equivalent of two kids, one breaks the family vase, and going to mom, "Well, sibling shouldn't have tattled on me, doesn't she share the blame?"  The "moderate" compromise outcome of punishing both kids for one's behavior is unfair.  It will not result in unity.  It will result in resentment at the uneven treatment.  It already has.  To use the Bible, this is equivalent to the story of slicing the baby in half to satisfy both mothers.  The real mom is going to be horrified at the compromise.

But as people here are saying, being angry alone doesn't produce outcomes.  Anger is useful when it motivates you to achieve outcomes.

So I will contact my representatives to ask them to impeach Trump.  I will donate to political causes I agree with.  I will engage in debate so long as it looks like the people I am talking to are willing to change their minds.  I will continue disengaging from people who use ad hominum attacks against me for my political view (no one in this thread, but IRL.)  I will continue voting in every election I can.  And I will keep pointing out hypocrisy when I see it, including both-sides-isms.

Careful with revisionist history. Kenosha and Minneapolis were literally burned down.

As someone who lives in Minneapolis, I think you might need a refresher on the definition of “literally.”

Also, much of the destruction in those riots was fomented by alt-right people.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/07/29/umbrella-man-white-supremacist-minneapolis/?fbclid=IwAR09ARP4H2tP7q9gYa-2JVJ9GxSiVj2n3XbdMjjrUiqpFhXfUj-4rAj06rY

https://www.wsls.com/news/virginia/2020/07/27/police-richmond-riots-instigated-by-white-supremacists-disguised-as-black-lives-matter/?fbclid=IwAR2IsY36sl27EuXETyvDsST7-weSOVWW4P-PbXP88_hYSl1AohVmf06xpqM

https://thehill.com/homenews/news/522509-feds-say-far-right-group-coordinated-attack-on-minneapolis-police-precinct
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: mathlete on January 11, 2021, 01:31:16 PM
Revisionist history, huh?

President Elect Joe Biden condemns rioting;

Quote
There’s no place for violence, no place for looting or destroying property or burning churches or destroying businesses […] we need to distinguish between legitimate peaceful protest and opportunistic violent destruction

VP Elect Kamala Harris condemns rioting;

Quote
It’s no wonder people are taking to the streets and I support them. We must always defend peaceful protest and peaceful protestors. We should not confuse them with those looting and committing acts of violence, including the shooter who was arrested for murder. And make no mistake, we will not let these vigilantes and extremists derail the path to justice.

Rep Ilhan Omar of Minneapolis condemns arson;

Quote
In Minneapolis, we have marched, we have protested, we have organized. And when we see people setting our buildings and our businesses ablaze, we know those are not people who are interested in protecting black lives. They might say they care about black lives, but they’re not interested in protecting black lives, because when you set a fire, you risk -- you risk the community that you are saying you are standing out for.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi condemns riots and calls for prosecution;

Quote
We support peaceful demonstrations. We participate in them. They are part of the essence of our democracy. That does not include looting, starting fires, or rioting. They should be prosecuted. That is lawlessness.

Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer introduced a resolution during the BLM protests that condemned the horrific way in which the BLM protests were handled across the country, where peaceful protestors were further antagonized by police, but also stated that "violence and looting are unlawful, unacceptable and contrary to the 7 purpose of peaceful protests." It's neither here nor there, but McConnell blocked this resolution.

Those are the four most prominent leaders in the Democratic party + the rep from Minneapolis, all condemning rioting. But here's the major difference.

The violence over the summer was sparked by the confluence of three things;

1.) The empirically verifiable fact that persons of color are treated lesser by the justice system
2.) The lived experience of millions of black americans which cosigns item #1
3.) Horrific video footage of police slowly killing an emotionally distraught man over an alleged petty crime while he begs for his life and cries out for his dead mother

At no point did any prominent member of Democratic leadership or even BLM leadership say, "We need to smash windows and burn buildings if we're ever going to get equitable justice."

Conversely

The grievances that led pro trump activists to storm and vandalize the capital, mortally threaten elected officials, trample one of their own to death, and beat an officer to death had

no basis in reality and were completely made of whole cloth by the defacto leader of the Republican party, President Donald J. Trump.

These lies were egged on and cosigned by hundreds of elected Republican officials. The morning of the event, the President told his people that they had to fight or else they'd lose their country. The President's lawyer talked of trial by combat. This is not unexpected either. Fueled by the crazy rhetoric of the president, a Militia group was recently busted by the FBI for plotting to kidnap Gretchen Whitmer. These types of reactions to his rhetoric have been a known quantity for a while.

This is why I have almost no patience for accusations of both-sides or boilerplate calls for unity or empathy or whatever from people who clearly done a fraction of the reading and research on this stuff that I have. If someone wants to act like they're above it all to avoid critical thinking, they're welcome to do that. But I'll push back every time.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: joe189man on January 11, 2021, 01:37:59 PM
to the OP's question, i wasn't going to do much of anything but, after reading this post i may do a little prepping now.

i think my suburbia area should be insulated from most/any action, unless armed folks were standing in front of grocery stores or going door to door questioning allegiances.

stocking up with necessary items to get through the next month or so might be prudent, maybe withdraw some cash, no changes to investments
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: chemistk on January 11, 2021, 01:38:40 PM
This is a wonderful answer:

I'm still trying to avoid catching or inadvertently spreading Covid.  There were 4000 other people who died on Wednesday from the virus. That's absolutely the bigger threat to me by every metric.
I worked in 1 WTC twenty years ago and was on my way into the building when a bunch of terrorists, angry with the way things were going in my country, killed some of my colleagues and friends. I saw the planes, the bodies of my coworkers, and witnessed the buildings collapse with my own eyes. Live, in person. Not on television.  It's something of a random fluke that I wasn't already inside and doomed to die like so many people I knew. It sticks with me.  In the years since, I've learned was that there is no purpose to sitting and viewing it all on-screen, over and over, endlessly debating and fomenting anger at those responsible or at those who share similar viewpoints with those responsible.
The events of Wednesday aren't unprecedented.  Violent acts of terrorism have happened before.  And even if that mob had succeeded in the most devastating of their plans, the certification of the electoral votes would still have happened.  Terrorism never achieves support for the terrorists' objectives.  It gets near universal condemnation and a backlash. 
America is not on the precipice.  We've just had an election. The people have spoken and the will of the people is being carried out. 
Wear your mask. Keep your distance. Get your vaccines.
 

I'm so sorry you had to witness that, kite. Thank you for sharing this.

-----

I'm doing nothing. Nothing, except helping my kids understand what's going on around them.

Freedom, democracy, and the betterment of society absolutely aren't things that will materialize out of thin air, but I'm still doing 'nothing'.

Most of my family is Republican and many still believe in the ideology of the Trump movement. Not the "burn antifa" movement (or however you choose to characterize it), but more toward the "Drain the Swamp" approach that he took earlier in his first campaign and first year of his term.

I won't burn bridges with them, nor coworkers who hold the same views, nor friends. I won't sabotage the entire network of relationships in my life over something that will eventually fade and heal. I don't engage, I don't argue, I don't refute. I actively deflect, play Devil's advocate, shed doubt on dubious claims, and poke holes in arguments where holes can be poked.

Otherwise, I'm raising my kids. I'm working. We're looking to buy a house. We're avoiding Covid. Life moves on for us. 

Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: jehovasfitness23 on January 11, 2021, 01:47:31 PM
This is a wonderful answer:

I'm still trying to avoid catching or inadvertently spreading Covid.  There were 4000 other people who died on Wednesday from the virus. That's absolutely the bigger threat to me by every metric.
I worked in 1 WTC twenty years ago and was on my way into the building when a bunch of terrorists, angry with the way things were going in my country, killed some of my colleagues and friends. I saw the planes, the bodies of my coworkers, and witnessed the buildings collapse with my own eyes. Live, in person. Not on television.  It's something of a random fluke that I wasn't already inside and doomed to die like so many people I knew. It sticks with me.  In the years since, I've learned was that there is no purpose to sitting and viewing it all on-screen, over and over, endlessly debating and fomenting anger at those responsible or at those who share similar viewpoints with those responsible.
The events of Wednesday aren't unprecedented.  Violent acts of terrorism have happened before.  And even if that mob had succeeded in the most devastating of their plans, the certification of the electoral votes would still have happened.  Terrorism never achieves support for the terrorists' objectives.  It gets near universal condemnation and a backlash. 
America is not on the precipice.  We've just had an election. The people have spoken and the will of the people is being carried out. 
Wear your mask. Keep your distance. Get your vaccines.
 

I'm so sorry you had to witness that, kite. Thank you for sharing this.

-----

I'm doing nothing. Nothing, except helping my kids understand what's going on around them.

Freedom, democracy, and the betterment of society absolutely aren't things that will materialize out of thin air, but I'm still doing 'nothing'.

Most of my family is Republican and many still believe in the ideology of the Trump movement. Not the "burn antifa" movement (or however you choose to characterize it), but more toward the "Drain the Swamp" approach that he took earlier in his first campaign and first year of his term.

I won't burn bridges with them, nor coworkers who hold the same views, nor friends. I won't sabotage the entire network of relationships in my life over something that will eventually fade and heal. I don't engage, I don't argue, I don't refute. I actively deflect, play Devil's advocate, shed doubt on dubious claims, and poke holes in arguments where holes can be poked.

Otherwise, I'm raising my kids. I'm working. We're looking to buy a house. We're avoiding Covid. Life moves on for us.

I asked this question to my therapist months ago, "what's the line? when people are rounded up into box cars?"

extreme but it poses a question, where's the line where people cut ties? For me it was Weds 6th after years of struggling to find that line.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: FIRE Artist on January 11, 2021, 01:48:41 PM
I am Canadian, so have no dog in this race, but what I really, really hope for my American friends is that they stay away from all government buildings and really any public place people congregate for the next year, at least. 

Sure, there will be right wing protests and probably some riots running up to the inauguration, but those things are easy to choose to avoid.  What I am worried about for my friends is an uptick in domestic terrorism - more bombings, more lone wolf snipers, that kind of shit that angry white men get up to at the best of times but will likely become far more prevalent in the coming year. 
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: Michael in ABQ on January 11, 2021, 02:06:43 PM
Trying to ignore the news and social media for the next couple of weeks.

I have zero control over any of this and so I don't plan on wasting any of my time or mental energy on it.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: dignam on January 11, 2021, 02:25:01 PM
Well, they started boarding up the first floor windows on our state capitol building today.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: kenmoremmm on January 11, 2021, 03:46:59 PM
my 'less than 1 year' plan is to immigrate to canada. i've decided long ago that my home country is not a place that i actually support on the whole. hoping we can make it out before the SHTF, bigly.

the entirety of my family is dialed into the conspiracy theories and trump worship. queue up: HRC, soros, gates, hunter biden, etc.  for example, did you know that it was the libs' fault for the capitol building riots last week (poor trump is the victim).

fortunately, after years of trying to convince my wife that we need to leave, this year really brought home the reality that the US is fucked. she's pretty heartbroken about accepting that realization; i have long made my peace. for me, it really started with sandy hook.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: Sid Hoffman on January 11, 2021, 03:55:02 PM
Ahh yes, we should be friendly to traitors of this country and bargain with the terrorists.

Did you call the people who drove the police out of a neighborhood in Seattle for three weeks to create the CHAZ/CHOP traitors and terrorists as well? There were killings there too and yet the traitors and terrorists still would not allow police to return or investigate, even days after a young boy was shot to death. Please answer, it will tell us if you truly care about terrorists or if you're just political posturing on the internet. There's radical nutjobs that have driven keepers of law and order out of all kinds of places before. If you only call them traitors and terrorists when you disagree with them and call them freedom fighters when you agree with them, then you're not truly in favor of equality and law and order.

To me, all breakdown of law and order is bad. It's bad when its leftists in Seattle and bad with its rightists in D.C. It's all bad because the breakdown of law and order is bad in a nation like the USA which is supposed to be trying for equality and the rule of law. Not mob rule and advancement of whoever's got the biggest show of power.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: Cranky on January 11, 2021, 03:55:12 PM
Well, they started boarding up the first floor windows on our state capitol building today.

I am guessing that that will be all state capitals in the next few days.

I feel - stuff might happen, but probably won’t affect me directly, but is extremely concerning.

Sometimes there is no middle place to work towards, and honestly, it’s not clear to me what terrible things the right wing people think might happen, so I dunno how we can compromise or reassure them about.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: jehovasfitness23 on January 11, 2021, 04:19:07 PM
Ahh yes, we should be friendly to traitors of this country and bargain with the terrorists.

Did you call the people who drove the police out of a neighborhood in Seattle for three weeks to create the CHAZ/CHOP traitors and terrorists as well? There were killings there too and yet the traitors and terrorists still would not allow police to return or investigate, even days after a young boy was shot to death. Please answer, it will tell us if you truly care about terrorists or if you're just political posturing on the internet. There's radical nutjobs that have driven keepers of law and order out of all kinds of places before. If you only call them traitors and terrorists when you disagree with them and call them freedom fighters when you agree with them, then you're not truly in favor of equality and law and order.

To me, all breakdown of law and order is bad. It's bad when its leftists in Seattle and bad with its rightists in D.C. It's all bad because the breakdown of law and order is bad in a nation like the USA which is supposed to be trying for equality and the rule of law. Not mob rule and advancement of whoever's got the biggest show of power.

false equivalency is false
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: CodingHare on January 11, 2021, 04:31:52 PM
Ahh yes, we should be friendly to traitors of this country and bargain with the terrorists.

Did you call the people who drove the police out of a neighborhood in Seattle for three weeks to create the CHAZ/CHOP traitors and terrorists as well? There were killings there too and yet the traitors and terrorists still would not allow police to return or investigate, even days after a young boy was shot to death. Please answer, it will tell us if you truly care about terrorists or if you're just political posturing on the internet. There's radical nutjobs that have driven keepers of law and order out of all kinds of places before. If you only call them traitors and terrorists when you disagree with them and call them freedom fighters when you agree with them, then you're not truly in favor of equality and law and order.

To me, all breakdown of law and order is bad. It's bad when its leftists in Seattle and bad with its rightists in D.C. It's all bad because the breakdown of law and order is bad in a nation like the USA which is supposed to be trying for equality and the rule of law. Not mob rule and advancement of whoever's got the biggest show of power.

All breakdown of law and order is bad, but not equally bad.  I live in Seattle, I shook my head when CHAZ went up and figured it would end up being a distraction from the main focus of the protests.  And I was right, it was a stupid idea that lead to several shootings and deaths.  The shootings were all unconnected, with multiple motives (some were black people being shot by racists, as I recall.)  That's a far cry from a terrorist attack--violence aimed at causing a desired political outcome.  So while I condemn the violence (certainly not calling any shooters freedom fighters), I find this to be a false equivalency.  I truly care about terrorists. But living in Kirkland, Wa with friends in Green Lake and surrounding areas?  CHAZ wasn't terrorism.  I'm glad its gone, it shouldn't have existed, I'm glad the shooters were arrested.  But not terrorism.

Also the BLM protests in Seattle were to raise awareness of the racist policing we have here, inform voters, and propose policy for lawmakers.  Last I checked, the DC Riot was to throw away the votes of millions of people.  So again, one protest's stated goals were peaceful change, the other was "Hang Mike Pence" and "Overthrow the election."  Not equivalent, so again I won't call BLM protestors "traitors and terrorists."

Note: I said I lived in both Seattle and Kirkland, to clarify, I lived in Kirkland at the time of the protest.  We have a bad habit of calling anything within an hours driving distance Seattle around here. Just thought I'd explain that inconsistency.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: mathlete on January 11, 2021, 04:45:24 PM
I don't live in Seattle and CHAZ to me seemed very much like local issue that got nationalized. I don't know the whole story, but the CHAZ people seem kinda sucky to me. I agree with CodingHare that they seemed more of a distraction than anything.

If the CHAZ was the result of months of lies sowed by the President and enabled by over one hundred members of Congress, I'd feel much different. As it is, I saw the story as local dipshits being dipshits. I didn't see a national movement around it. I didn't see it happening all around the country. And I didn't see any leaders of prominence supporting it.

So I don't see how this is relevant.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: MoseyingAlong on January 11, 2021, 04:53:01 PM

..... a terrorist attack--violence aimed at causing a desired political outcome...

Also the BLM protests in Seattle were to raise awareness of the racist policing we have here, inform voters, and propose policy for lawmakers.... 
 I won't call BLM protestors "traitors and terrorists."

@CodingHare Thanks for your post. It helped explain some of what I've thought of as a disconnect.
Would you expand on this?
 
Are you saying the BLM protests were "aimed at causing a desired political outcome" but were not planned to be violent and that is why you won't call them terrorists?

That makes sense to me but then I struggle with thinking that some (a minuscule minority maybe) of the BLM protestors were planning violence to ensure attention was paid. So maybe a few were terrorists?

I know quite a truck drivers were afraid to drive thru big cities for fear of the violence taking place. Do you distinguish that violence as a side effect, not an intention?

I understand if you don't want to get into it here but your post is enlightening.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: Sid Hoffman on January 11, 2021, 04:59:14 PM
I guess I just see the breakdown of law & order as a bad thing, regardless of how it happens. After Minneapolis cops murdered George Floyd we had protests in something like 100+ cities but only in a few of them did we see law & order truly break down. In those places (the CHAZ is an example) it is very much comparable to the nutjobs that managed to get a breakdown of law & order in the capital as well.

It's not going to last long though. Joe Biden has made it clear that although he's seeking healing and an advancement of progressive ideals, he's absolutely a president of law & order. Look at the mayor of Portland. After literally having rioters drive him out of his own home, he got re-elected on the promise that he'll take a tougher stand against rioters than his opponent and that's what we've seen in Portland now. The pendulum swings. It swung hard against law & order this summer and we're going to see it swing back hard towards law & order under Biden. There will be peace because it's the only way to move forward.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: mm1970 on January 11, 2021, 05:09:07 PM
Ahh yes, we should be friendly to traitors of this country and bargain with the terrorists.

LOL man some of you.

I'm not saying I want to fight with my fam/friends, I just don't want them in my life if they still support this president. Full stop.

I think if you've made an honest effort to communicate with them, and understand why they hold different views than you do, it's fine to avoid contact. But I think as a society, we've pretty much failed to properly communicate for the last few decades, and simply started shouting at each other because taking an empathetic approach to civil disagreement and trying to understand a different viewpoint is a lot more work than just shouting.
The people that stormed the Capitol saw themselves as patriots defending their democracy from traitors. You see yourself as a patriot defending your democracy from traitors. Everybody thinks they're the good guy.
Reconciliation doesn't fall solely on the shoulders of the people who were right about Trump's cruelty and fascist tendencies from the beginning.

Even after insurrectionists were wound up by Trump, broke into the Capitol, and killed people, congress reconvened and over 100 congressmen voted to disenfranchise tens of millions of votes and overturn the results of a legitimate election in order to cater to Trump's baseless tin foil conspiracy theories.

Their constituents can, at any point, start pressuring those congressmen to admit fault and change course.

This.  As an example, I have a cousin-through-marriage who married a big Trumper.  Several months ago, we got into it on FB on our aunt's page.  I pointed out that he really DOESN'T understand how his aunt feels, and her positions - and that's partly because he hasn't TRIED.  (She's gay, she's lived all over.  He's white, middle class, in lives in our very white home town.)

He attacked me with "oh, poor baby have I hurt your feelings."  My response was less than nice with "oh please, I'm 50 years old and was in the military, you can't hurt my feelings because I literally don't give a shit what you think."  (He's maybe 30 years old.  It's my much younger cousin.)

Within a day his wife was all boo-hooing on FB about how people keep "attacking" her husband and if you don't like them, then just unfriend us.  So...I did.  I mean, if that's what you want, fine with me!

Well apparently yesterday, she posted in the private family group how people are "attacking" her husband and she loves us and doesn't feel mean towards us for our beliefs and we need to respect hers!  So, I went to her public fb page, didn't see anything, and then went to his.  Well, he posts a lot of the horrible things that you'd expect from a trump supporter and I saw our aunts and uncles interacting with him and his opinions...quite respectfully.  And he basically "yelled" in return, as much as you can yell on facebook.

So, respectfully questioning your opinions is attacking?  Well fuck that.  I have no need to keep these nutcases in my life (I mean, I already unfriended her and we live on opposite coasts anyway.  And I have like 70 cousins anyway.)
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: CodingHare on January 11, 2021, 05:45:08 PM

..... a terrorist attack--violence aimed at causing a desired political outcome...

Also the BLM protests in Seattle were to raise awareness of the racist policing we have here, inform voters, and propose policy for lawmakers.... 
 I won't call BLM protestors "traitors and terrorists."

@CodingHare Thanks for your post. It helped explain some of what I've thought of as a disconnect.
Would you expand on this?
 
Are you saying the BLM protests were "aimed at causing a desired political outcome" but were not planned to be violent and that is why you won't call them terrorists?

That makes sense to me but then I struggle with thinking that some (a minuscule minority maybe) of the BLM protestors were planning violence to ensure attention was paid. So maybe a few were terrorists?

I know quite a truck drivers were afraid to drive thru big cities for fear of the violence taking place. Do you distinguish that violence as a side effect, not an intention?

I understand if you don't want to get into it here but your post is enlightening.

Sure, happy to!  I guess we go back to definitions.  Both protests and terrorism try to effect change, often political.  Protests don't say, Do what we want or we will hang you.  They are saying, this group of people are unhappy and want x.  We will vote for x, we will disrupt people's lives and cost money (via blocking roads and the like) to make sure people are listening to us.  Often protests happen when lobbying through normal channels fails.  A small protest might be ignored.  A large one commands attention.

Terrorism seeks to force an immediate change via violence.  Bomb the Pentagon so they can't organize strikes in the Middle East against insurgents, to use 9/11 as an example.  Threaten to hang Pence if he doesn't overthrow the vote of the people.


That's why I characterize BLM and the Capitol riots differently.

Ednt: Missed the question about your truck driver's example, hazard of replying on mobile.  I guess to me, I draw the line between inconveniencing society and harming its members.  So I don't think individuals should ever face violence against their person, and the ideal purpose of law enforcement is to prevent that.  On the flip side, in America money talks.  Block a highway and impct shipments?  No people harmed and not listening to the issue costs society in a real way.  I think racial justice and the murders of innocent people merit that level of reaction.

IIRC, at least in Seattle the protestors explicitly let ambulences and fire trucks through.

Sorry if that was a ramble, I had an upfront view last year and thought a lot about what the George Floyd and Breonna Taylor marches meant in terms of economic impact locally, and how the events were heavily spun my national media.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: John Galt incarnate! on January 11, 2021, 06:13:43 PM
I guess I just see the breakdown of law & order as a bad thing, regardless of how it happens. After Minneapolis cops murdered George Floyd we had protests in something like 100+ cities but only in a few of them did we see law & order truly break down. In those places (the CHAZ is an example) it is very much comparable to the nutjobs that managed to get a breakdown of law & order in the capital as well.

It's not going to last long though. Joe Biden has made it clear that although he's seeking healing and an advancement of progressive ideals, he's absolutely a president of law & order. Look at the mayor of Portland. After literally having rioters drive him out of his own home, he got re-elected on the promise that he'll take a tougher stand against rioters than his opponent and that's what we've seen in Portland now. The pendulum swings. It swung hard against law & order this summer and we're going to see it swing back hard towards law & order under Biden. There will be peace because it's the only way to move forward.

I heard Portland's  mayor bluntly state  his new, hard-line  policy; he didn't mince words.

I will  not go so far as to say that the protracted looting/vandalism/arson and other criminality in Portland and other cities "set the table" for the insurrectionists' storming of the Capitol building.

  The laxity on the part of  governors, mayors, and other officials  protracted the lawlessness in Portland and elsewhere so I think  the insurrectionists' awareness  of it may have influenced their behavior.

The law teaches by  its application AND  inapplication.

Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: Abe on January 11, 2021, 08:54:52 PM
To clarify - people who have crazy beliefs with no basis on reality and blindly support a lunatic are “idiots”. People who then attack others to get said beliefs accepted by a government and over-rule that government’s standard process of representation are “terrorists”. If some people shoot up a courthouse or burned down businesses in an attempt to force people into accepting their beliefs and over-ruling lawfully created justice systems, they are also “terrorists”. If they do it by electing lawmakers who reform the justice system, they are “good citizens”. The lunatics are not good citizens because they are trying to overthrow the rights of other citizens, so even if they elect lawmakers who suggest violating the constitution and disenfranchising millions of people is OK, they are still “bad citizens”.

All of the above is irrelevant except for the violence part, which should be prosecuted. I do agree that a bunch of my fellow citizens are gullible. They are also adults and need to accept some responsibility. More to others’ point, yelling at gullible people that they are dopes will not make them agree with you. Making their society not suck will. Economic initiatives that they will probably whine about yet hypocritically accept for themselves tends to work, because over time the whining decreases as their lives suck less. Eventually it may be even worth living in reality instead of a loser-filled internet barn of wannabe terorrists. This will likely work for both sides of the political spectrum, avoids ascribing degrees of fault/shame, and as this forum’s existence notes: everyone likes more money. Maybe not for their neighbor, but definitely for themselves.

Yes it’s not fair, but life isn’t. We spend lots of money on conveniences, and a big thing that makes a stable country convenient is not getting shot up by some moron at the store because he read the inter webs in a Monster-fueled all-nighter. If he had a job to go to, maybe he’d not do that.

Other than that I don’t have any ideas. Not going to legitimize crazy nonsense by pretending it’s anything other than crazy nonsense. That doesn’t mean we can’t throw the non-violent people a bone. As much as it sucks, we have to be the better people always, because two belligerent factions don’t make a stable country.  Refer to Jesus and all that stuff he said. Think of your children. Not mine, because we can easily peace out if this country can’t hold it together (parents did that when I was a kid, so think of it as a family tradition).

Ok, done ranting. Had to get that off my chest.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: Paper Chaser on January 12, 2021, 03:54:16 AM
As much as it sucks, we have to be the better people always, because two belligerent factions don’t make a stable country.  Refer to Jesus and all that stuff he said.

If I were going to summarize my posts in this thread, I think it would be similar to what you've posted here Abe. I know there aren't a ton of religious people that post here, but regardless of how religious a person is/isn't, I think most people agree that "The Golden Rule" is a pretty worthy objective for how we interact with others. That's what I'm going to focus on moving forward. When the opportunity comes for me to take action and vote, I'll do that as well but until then it's "love thy neighbor" stuff for me. It takes both sides working together (Not sure why people seem to think that anyone is suggesting one side compromise while the other doesn't), or we end up in an arms race.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: Fomerly known as something on January 12, 2021, 04:06:43 AM
Ahh yes, we should be friendly to traitors of this country and bargain with the terrorists.

LOL man some of you.

I'm not saying I want to fight with my fam/friends, I just don't want them in my life if they still support this president. Full stop.

I think if you've made an honest effort to communicate with them, and understand why they hold different views than you do, it's fine to avoid contact. But I think as a society, we've pretty much failed to properly communicate for the last few decades, and simply started shouting at each other because taking an empathetic approach to civil disagreement and trying to understand a different viewpoint is a lot more work than just shouting.
The people that stormed the Capitol saw themselves as patriots defending their democracy from traitors. You see yourself as a patriot defending your democracy from traitors. Everybody thinks they're the good guy.
Reconciliation doesn't fall solely on the shoulders of the people who were right about Trump's cruelty and fascist tendencies from the beginning.

Even after insurrectionists were wound up by Trump, broke into the Capitol, and killed people, congress reconvened and over 100 congressmen voted to disenfranchise tens of millions of votes and overturn the results of a legitimate election in order to cater to Trump's baseless tin foil conspiracy theories.

Their constituents can, at any point, start pressuring those congressmen to admit fault and change course.

This.  As an example, I have a cousin-through-marriage who married a big Trumper.  Several months ago, we got into it on FB on our aunt's page.  I pointed out that he really DOESN'T understand how his aunt feels, and her positions - and that's partly because he hasn't TRIED.  (She's gay, she's lived all over.  He's white, middle class, in lives in our very white home town.)

He attacked me with "oh, poor baby have I hurt your feelings."  My response was less than nice with "oh please, I'm 50 years old and was in the military, you can't hurt my feelings because I literally don't give a shit what you think."  (He's maybe 30 years old.  It's my much younger cousin.)

Within a day his wife was all boo-hooing on FB about how people keep "attacking" her husband and if you don't like them, then just unfriend us.  So...I did.  I mean, if that's what you want, fine with me!

Well apparently yesterday, she posted in the private family group how people are "attacking" her husband and she loves us and doesn't feel mean towards us for our beliefs and we need to respect hers!  So, I went to her public fb page, didn't see anything, and then went to his.  Well, he posts a lot of the horrible things that you'd expect from a trump supporter and I saw our aunts and uncles interacting with him and his opinions...quite respectfully.  And he basically "yelled" in return, as much as you can yell on facebook.

So, respectfully questioning your opinions is attacking?  Well fuck that.  I have no need to keep these nutcases in my life (I mean, I already unfriended her and we live on opposite coasts anyway.  And I have like 70 cousins anyway.)

Part of it is social media.  I know through my job many people who lean more like Trumpers while I’m a centrist  politically for the most part and on the left in what is currently going on.  I’m not friends with any of them on social media.  I can have a conversation with them that brings in politics and we do fine and can remain civil.  I believe it’s because we are actually face to face and can see both the spoken and body language of the person.  We can also literally walk away (which you can’t on social media) which allows the parties to not escalate.  Plus what had caused us to stop and walk away isn’t written down somewhere so we don’t keep getting whatever ticked us off brought back up because somebody else commented.

With family, there is only one I dropped from FB and I dropped her before 2016.  There are others that I only interact with on a limited basis.  FB’s algorithm no longer shows me much of them, I see way more from the disapproving cats group.

Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: chemistk on January 12, 2021, 05:50:04 AM
I asked this question to my therapist months ago, "what's the line? when people are rounded up into box cars?"

extreme but it poses a question, where's the line where people cut ties? For me it was Weds 6th after years of struggling to find that line.

If that happens, I am at peace with my Maker.

Otherwise, life moves forward.

I was bullied for a significant portion of elementary/middle school. The single most important thing I learned and the same thing that I have been teaching our oldest child now that he's in Kindergarten, is that bullies can only be bullies if you let them.

When you don't give them what they want, whatever it is, you take all their power away from them. If I am shot point blank, in the back, or through my bedroom window because I chose not to give these people the attention they crave, then see my first sentence in this reply.

These people are bullies. They crave attention because they're angry about things that other people aren't and they're taking it out in the way they think will rile up those they hate the most. It's the same reason one of my bullies told me my Mom died in a car crash during class when I was 9. It was the same reason I was pushed off the playground when I was 10. It was the same reason I was kicked when I was crying over another name calling.

Perhaps this reaction is viewed as cowardly. I know and am at peace with the fact that it's not.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: ericrugiero on January 12, 2021, 06:48:37 AM

..... a terrorist attack--violence aimed at causing a desired political outcome...

Also the BLM protests in Seattle were to raise awareness of the racist policing we have here, inform voters, and propose policy for lawmakers.... 
 I won't call BLM protestors "traitors and terrorists."

@CodingHare Thanks for your post. It helped explain some of what I've thought of as a disconnect.
Would you expand on this?
 
Are you saying the BLM protests were "aimed at causing a desired political outcome" but were not planned to be violent and that is why you won't call them terrorists?

That makes sense to me but then I struggle with thinking that some (a minuscule minority maybe) of the BLM protestors were planning violence to ensure attention was paid. So maybe a few were terrorists?

I know quite a truck drivers were afraid to drive thru big cities for fear of the violence taking place. Do you distinguish that violence as a side effect, not an intention?

I understand if you don't want to get into it here but your post is enlightening.

Sure, happy to!  I guess we go back to definitions.  Both protests and terrorism try to effect change, often political.  Protests don't say, Do what we want or we will hang you.  They are saying, this group of people are unhappy and want x.  We will vote for x, we will disrupt people's lives and cost money (via blocking roads and the like) to make sure people are listening to us.  Often protests happen when lobbying through normal channels fails.  A small protest might be ignored.  A large one commands attention.

Terrorism seeks to force an immediate change via violence.  Bomb the Pentagon so they can't organize strikes in the Middle East against insurgents, to use 9/11 as an example.  Threaten to hang Pence if he doesn't overthrow the vote of the people.


That's why I characterize BLM and the Capitol riots differently.

Ednt: Missed the question about your truck driver's example, hazard of replying on mobile.  I guess to me, I draw the line between inconveniencing society and harming its members.  So I don't think individuals should ever face violence against their person, and the ideal purpose of law enforcement is to prevent that.  On the flip side, in America money talks.  Block a highway and impct shipments?  No people harmed and not listening to the issue costs society in a real way.  I think racial justice and the murders of innocent people merit that level of reaction.

IIRC, at least in Seattle the protestors explicitly let ambulences and fire trucks through.

Sorry if that was a ramble, I had an upfront view last year and thought a lot about what the George Floyd and Breonna Taylor marches meant in terms of economic impact locally, and how the events were heavily spun my national media.

@CodingHare Thank you for the explanation of the differences you see.  Please allow me to push back a little. 

In the BLM protests, most people were peaceful and were legitimately there to draw attention to a problem so that our society could change for the better.  I totally get that and agree that in large part the intentions were good.  But, there were groups of people who perpetrated violence/vandalism and/or were holding signs or chanting "No Justice, No Peace" or "Know Justice, Know Peace".  I take that to mean that they will continue to prevent peace until there is justice.  That seems a lot like your definition of terrorism "Terrorism seeks to force an immediate change via violence". 

In the capitol protests, most of the people were peaceful and were there because they legitimately believe that the election was stolen (they may be wrong but they have the right to a peaceful protest).  A small percentage of them turned violent and did terrible acts of terrorism.  Condemn the terrorists, prosecute them, throw the book at them.  I will be right there with you.  Just don't lump all conservatives in with them. 
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: jehovasfitness23 on January 12, 2021, 06:55:44 AM
Stop comparing BLM to traitors. This is a false equivalency, god.

1. BLM was for a legit cause that had some buildings damaged
2. The 6th was a conspiracy theory built on lies of a fraudulent election that had plans of executing members of congress to overthrow the gov't, with the help of some in law enforcement

they are NOT the same
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: ericrugiero on January 12, 2021, 07:23:12 AM
Stop comparing BLM to traitors. This is a false equivalency, god.

1. BLM was for a legit cause that had some buildings damaged
2. The 6th was a conspiracy theory built on lies of a fraudulent election that had plans of executing members of congress to overthrow the gov't, with the help of some in law enforcement

they are NOT the same

Nobody is comparing BLM (the bigger movement with good intentions) to the terrorists on the 6th.  Some of us are comparing the people who used violence for an end during the BLM riots and the people who used violence for an end on the 6th.  I consider them both terrorists and don't understand why there is so much more outcry against one than the other.  Also, people were injured and killed during the BLM protests, it wasn't just "some buildings damaged"  https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/09/us/dallas-police-shooting.html
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: maizefolk on January 12, 2021, 07:32:05 AM
1. BLM was for a legit cause that had some buildings damaged
2. The 6th was a conspiracy theory built on lies of a fraudulent election that had plans of executing members of congress to overthrow the gov't, with the help of some in law enforcement

they are NOT the same

While I agree that the two events were not the same, allow me to suggest that frame the difference being that the Floyd protests were for "a legit cause" (e.g. one that you agree with), is not a productive way to advance the discussion.

While I understand that this is not your intention, it ends up sounding like you have a problem with the occupation of the capitol because it was done in the name of a cause you do not support, rather than because occupying the capitol in order to try to overturn the results of democratic elections is unacceptable regardless of the cause the occupiers support.

People who disagree politically can agree that some tactics or actions are out of bounds regardless of the cause. Once you bring whether you agree with the position behind the tactics or action to the equation things rapidly degenerate to "the ends justify the means" and terrorism and treason become whatever the current party in power doesn't want people doing.

As someone who has spent the last four years in a country run by a government I fundamentally disagree with on a whole host of issues, I'd really rather we didn't go down that road in this country (more than we already have).
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: maizefolk on January 12, 2021, 07:47:17 AM
Nobody is comparing BLM (the bigger movement with good intentions) to the terrorists on the 6th.  Some of us are comparing the people who used violence for an end during the BLM riots and the people who used violence for an end on the 6th.  I consider them both terrorists and don't understand why there is so much more outcry against one than the other.  Also, people were injured and killed during the BLM protests, it wasn't just "some buildings damaged"  https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/09/us/dallas-police-shooting.html

ericrugiero, my view is that the biggest difference between the two is that violence specifically directed at people by some attendee of the BLM protests seemed to mostly be not pre-meditated (and so not aimed at achieving political ends) but the result of putting lots of angry young people together in an environment where the rule of law wasn't being enforced, whereas the occupation of the capitol appears to have involved more planning and organization.

In our society, the same crime is almost always worse when it is premeditated. If two people commit murder, one getting in a fight at a bar and breaking their opponent's neck, and one person plans for weeks where and when they can shoot a person who they don't like, the latter generally receives a harsher sentence than the former.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: ericrugiero on January 12, 2021, 07:59:03 AM
Nobody is comparing BLM (the bigger movement with good intentions) to the terrorists on the 6th.  Some of us are comparing the people who used violence for an end during the BLM riots and the people who used violence for an end on the 6th.  I consider them both terrorists and don't understand why there is so much more outcry against one than the other.  Also, people were injured and killed during the BLM protests, it wasn't just "some buildings damaged"  https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/09/us/dallas-police-shooting.html

ericrugiero, my view is that the biggest difference between the two is that violence specifically directed at people by some attendee of the BLM protests seemed to mostly be not pre-meditated (and so not aimed at achieving political ends) but the result of putting lots of angry young people together in an environment where the rule of law wasn't being enforces, whereas the occupation of the capitol appears to have involved more planning and organization.

In our society, the same crime is almost always worse when it is premeditated. If two people commit murder, one getting in a fight at a bar and breaking their opponent's neck, and one person plans for weeks where and when they can shoot a person who they don't like, the latter generally receives a harsher sentence than the former.

This makes sense and I hadn't thought of it that way.  Thanks

I also like your post above about the importance of separating the discussion of "legit cause" vs the specific actions which are not OK no matter what the cause is.  We should all be able to agree that some actions are not OK no matter what cause the people are supporting.   
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: mathlete on January 12, 2021, 08:04:01 AM
I take "no justice, no peace" to mean that we're going to be out here loud and marching until there is justice.

I also think people who burn down Targets under the cover of a BLM protest suck. Are they as bad as the Capitol rioters? It's hard to tell. The Capitol rioters fought cops and killed one. And we're probably lucky they didn't kill elected officials.

Either way though, they're both bad.

The way to stop violence at BLM protests is,

1. Marchers police each other. They mostly do this. There's lots of great video of this happening from over the Summer and over 90% of protests were peaceful.
2. Cops stop killing unarmed black people.
3. More equitable treatment overall. i.e., if you go to a good school or have a good job or live in a nice home, you're probably less likely to feel like burning your city down.

The way to stop the violence at the Capitol was much simpler: Trump concedes on November 7th, when it was clear he would lose the election. No lies about election integrity. No cowardly congresspeople enabling him.

This is what makes the comparison fall flat IMO. Racial equity is a real issue. Election integrity is a made up issue.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: CodingHare on January 12, 2021, 08:24:59 AM
@CodingHare Thank you for the explanation of the differences you see.  Please allow me to push back a little. 

In the BLM protests, most people were peaceful and were legitimately there to draw attention to a problem so that our society could change for the better.  I totally get that and agree that in large part the intentions were good.  But, there were groups of people who perpetrated violence/vandalism and/or were holding signs or chanting "No Justice, No Peace" or "Know Justice, Know Peace".  I take that to mean that they will continue to prevent peace until there is justice.  That seems a lot like your definition of terrorism "Terrorism seeks to force an immediate change via violence". 

In the capitol protests, most of the people were peaceful and were there because they legitimately believe that the election was stolen (they may be wrong but they have the right to a peaceful protest).  A small percentage of them turned violent and did terrible acts of terrorism.  Condemn the terrorists, prosecute them, throw the book at them.  I will be right there with you.  Just don't lump all conservatives in with them.

I think others have beaten the dead horse on why BLM vs the Capitol riots are different.  I just wanted to respond to lumping all conservatives in with them, since I think maybe that is at the heart of why not condemning both groups might feel unfair.

I do not think every single person at DC on the 5th was a traitor and a terrorist personally.  I do not think all conservatives are traitors and terrorists.  What I know is that the following conservative leadership in particular whipped up the lies that lead to the 5th:


So the people I think are traitors (and I use that word to mean traitors to the democratic process our country is founded on) are up above.  The terrorists are the people who broke into the capital building.  I'm seeing some on the right call out this behavior (Mitt Romney and Arnold Schwarzenegger, in particular.)  I think in the interests of unity, bipartisanship, and empathy, conservatives need to clean out their own trash.  I want to see official censure.  I want to see bipartisan impeachment.  I don't want consequences for insurrection at the capital and lying to court your base to be a left versus right issue.  We'll see how that pans out over the next few days.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: former player on January 12, 2021, 08:25:52 AM
I am scared to death. I know enough about the runup to the Nazis and other nasty things in history. I don't know what I can do though. My husband thinks I am being foolish.  I've had a rough year.

 I don't think it would help to hoard things or change my asset allocation. I keep a pretty low profile and only talk politics with certain close friends, never on social media.  The area where I live is fairly buttoned up. We had a very peaceful BLM protest in June.

 I/ my family wouldn't be a first target by a long shot, but I worry about friends who would. I have British citizenship but it's not much better there right now.

I don't watch the news too closely. I keep an eye on the headlines and my dad sends me an article sometimes. I don't watch video news at all because seeing Trump is an anxiety trigger for me.

I am not religious but I am praying in my foxhole for a peaceful next ten days. Maybe even an impeachment.
BiB (I added the bold): for sure we have 99 problems here in the UK but insurrection plotted by our elected leaders isn't one of them.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: ctuser1 on January 12, 2021, 08:27:41 AM
This is what makes the comparison fall flat IMO. Racial equity is a real issue. Election integrity is a made up issue.

There's still enough voter suppression laws and policies on the book in many states. So maybe there are some ways to channel the "election integrity" discussion to make sure that a "downtown Atlanta black single mom" has the same access to voting as a rural farmer, and of course to make sure nobody else can vote in her name. :-D

Perhaps some sort of amendment to the federal voter rights laws that state "Any valid citizen of the US, who is resident in a specific state should not be turned away from voting either absentee or in-person, and should have a voting booth present within X minutes on foot. The burden of proof is on the state officials to prove he is not eligible as long as the voter in question can provide basic information (SSN, Address etc)".   
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: mathlete on January 12, 2021, 08:34:25 AM
This is what makes the comparison fall flat IMO. Racial equity is a real issue. Election integrity is a made up issue.

There's still enough voter suppression laws and policies on the book in many states. So maybe there are some ways to channel the "election integrity" discussion to make sure that a "downtown Atlanta black single mom" has the same access to voting as a rural farmer, and of course to make sure nobody else can vote in her name. :-D

I am of course, incredibly sympathetic to issues like that. But for as wild as this election was with COVID, it seems like it was about as secure as it ever was. So I'm reticent to even indulge questions about integrity (even to try to expand access and up voter participation) because it's a dangerous road to go down when there's just no evidence.

My reading of history is that indulging "election integrity" usually means making it harder to vote. More hoops to jump through. No same day registration. Voter ID. That stuff.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: Cool Friend on January 12, 2021, 08:39:30 AM
1. BLM was for a legit cause that had some buildings damaged
2. The 6th was a conspiracy theory built on lies of a fraudulent election that had plans of executing members of congress to overthrow the gov't, with the help of some in law enforcement

they are NOT the same

While I agree that the two events were not the same, allow me to suggest that frame the difference being that the Floyd protests were for "a legit cause" (e.g. one that you agree with), is not a productive way to advance the discussion.

While I understand that this is not your intention, it ends up sounding like you have a problem with the occupation of the capitol because it was done in the name of a cause you do not support, rather than because occupying the capitol in order to try to overturn the results of democratic elections is unacceptable regardless of the cause the occupiers support.

People who disagree politically can agree that some tactics or actions are out of bounds regardless of the cause. Once you bring whether you agree with the position behind the tactics or action to the equation things rapidly degenerate to "the ends justify the means" and terrorism and treason become whatever the current party in power doesn't want people doing.

As someone who has spent the last four years in a country run by a government I fundamentally disagree with on a whole host of issues, I'd really rather we didn't go down that road in this country (more than we already have).

jehovasfitness: one is legitimate because it is based on well-documented, observable reality, and the other is illegitimate because it is based on well-documented, observable lies.
maizefolk: wow so one is illegitimate simply because you disagree with it??


Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: ctuser1 on January 12, 2021, 08:39:34 AM
My reading of history is that indulging "election integrity" usually means making it harder to vote. More hoops to jump through. No same day registration. Voter ID. That stuff.

Just because "election integrity" has been framed in a way so as to advance Apartheid doe snot mean it has to always be that way.

The non-crazy people can steal their framing and use that against the crazy ones :-D.

--------------------------------------

I think the Dems need to learn to use the Right's rhetoric against them. Even though I am apprehensive of Big Tech's powers, I am loving every bit of the a*se-whopping that the "corporations are people" gang are getting with de-platforming. I hope it extends all the way to RNC being de-platformed.

More than any good arguments, I think real consequences may convince a small fraction of crazies to become less crazy.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: jehovasfitness23 on January 12, 2021, 08:40:36 AM
@CodingHare Thank you for the explanation of the differences you see.  Please allow me to push back a little. 

In the BLM protests, most people were peaceful and were legitimately there to draw attention to a problem so that our society could change for the better.  I totally get that and agree that in large part the intentions were good.  But, there were groups of people who perpetrated violence/vandalism and/or were holding signs or chanting "No Justice, No Peace" or "Know Justice, Know Peace".  I take that to mean that they will continue to prevent peace until there is justice.  That seems a lot like your definition of terrorism "Terrorism seeks to force an immediate change via violence". 

In the capitol protests, most of the people were peaceful and were there because they legitimately believe that the election was stolen (they may be wrong but they have the right to a peaceful protest).  A small percentage of them turned violent and did terrible acts of terrorism.  Condemn the terrorists, prosecute them, throw the book at them.  I will be right there with you.  Just don't lump all conservatives in with them.

I think others have beaten the dead horse on why BLM vs the Capitol riots are different.  I just wanted to respond to lumping all conservatives in with them, since I think maybe that is at the heart of why not condemning both groups might feel unfair.

I do not think every single person at DC on the 5th was a traitor and a terrorist personally.  I do not think all conservatives are traitors and terrorists.  What I know is that the following conservative leadership in particular whipped up the lies that lead to the 5th:

  • Trump
  • Cruz
  • Hawley
  • 139 House GOP members who voted to object to the electors from Arizona and/or Pennsylvania after the riots, despite seeing the same evidence of no election fraud as the rest of us.

So the people I think are traitors (and I use that word to mean traitors to the democratic process our country is founded on) are up above.  The terrorists are the people who broke into the capital building.  I'm seeing some on the right call out this behavior (Mitt Romney and Arnold Schwarzenegger, in particular.)  I think in the interests of unity, bipartisanship, and empathy, conservatives need to clean out their own trash.  I want to see official censure.  I want to see bipartisan impeachment.  I don't want consequences for insurrection at the capital and lying to court your base to be a left versus right issue.  We'll see how that pans out over the next few days.

100%
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: mathlete on January 12, 2021, 08:43:25 AM
My reading of history is that indulging "election integrity" usually means making it harder to vote. More hoops to jump through. No same day registration. Voter ID. That stuff.

Just because "election integrity" has been framed in a way so as to advance Apartheid doe snot mean it has to always be that way.

The non-crazy people can steal their framing and use that against the crazy ones :-D.

--------------------------------------

I think the Dems need to learn to use the Right's rhetoric against them. Even though I am apprehensive of Big Tech's powers, I am loving every bit of the a*se-whopping that the "corporations are people" are getting. More than any good arguments, I think real consequences may convince some crazies to become less crazy.

You like to live dangerously, huh? :)
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: maizefolk on January 12, 2021, 08:49:29 AM
jehovasfitness: one is legitimate because it is based on well-documented, observable reality, and the other is illegitimate because it is based on well-documented, observable lies.
maizefolk: wow so one is illegitimate simply because you disagree with it??

@Cool Friend  hat is a mischaracterization of my post (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/america-on-the-precipice-what-are-you-doing/msg2771980/#msg2771980), which you quoted alongside this statement.

If you're prefer the TL;DR version:

The illegitimacy or legitimacy of a cause shouldn't have to be a factor in condemning the occupation of the capitol building. That action, in of itself, is and should be out of bounds.

Politically, focusing on the tactic being out of bounds gets something like 7/8 americans to agree with you (making it easier to impose consequences on those responsible).

If you focus on whether or not they both agree with the justifications for the black lives matters protests AND disagree with the justifications given for storming the capitol you end up with a lot less and make it more likely people like Cruz and Hawley get off scot-free.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: ctuser1 on January 12, 2021, 08:54:41 AM
My reading of history is that indulging "election integrity" usually means making it harder to vote. More hoops to jump through. No same day registration. Voter ID. That stuff.

Just because "election integrity" has been framed in a way so as to advance Apartheid doe snot mean it has to always be that way.

The non-crazy people can steal their framing and use that against the crazy ones :-D.

--------------------------------------

I think the Dems need to learn to use the Right's rhetoric against them. Even though I am apprehensive of Big Tech's powers, I am loving every bit of the a*se-whopping that the "corporations are people" are getting. More than any good arguments, I think real consequences may convince some crazies to become less crazy.

You like to live dangerously, huh? :)

Think about it.

"Election Integrity" has two legs:
1. All valid voters can vote without any undue barriers and their vote is counted.
2. No invalid votes are counted.

The "Right" gets all wound up on the fictitious issues they perceive with #2, while intentionally screwing up #1. Rather than trying to badmouth the phrase "election integrity" itself, I think the Dems should just rhetorically support it with the clarification that they want both of the issues with election integrity addressed. Simple.

You will, of course, suddenly see the right dislike "election integrity", because they love their Apartheid. But in the confusion some good laws might get passed that addresses #1.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: mathlete on January 12, 2021, 08:57:37 AM
jehovasfitness: one is legitimate because it is based on well-documented, observable reality, and the other is illegitimate because it is based on well-documented, observable lies.
maizefolk: wow so one is illegitimate simply because you disagree with it??

@Cool Friend  hat is a mischaracterization of my post (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/america-on-the-precipice-what-are-you-doing/msg2771980/#msg2771980), which you quoted alongside this statement.

If you're prefer the TL;DR version:

The illegitimacy or legitimacy of a cause shouldn't have to be a factor in condemning the occupation of the capitol building. That action, in of itself, is and should be out of bounds.

Politically, focusing on the tactic being out of bounds gets something like 7/8 americans to agree with you (making it easier to impose consequences on those responsible).

If you focus on whether or not they both agree with the justifications for the black lives matters protests AND disagree with the justifications given for storming the capitol you end up with a lot less and make it more likely people like Cruz and Hawley get off scot-free.

I actually disagree. If the election had actually been stolen, then we no longer live in a legitimate or functional democracy and violent revolution is probably justified.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: maizefolk on January 12, 2021, 09:01:26 AM
I actually disagree. If the election had actually been stolen, then we no longer live in a legitimate or functional democracy and violent revolution is probably justified.

Fair enough. In that case I agree you have no choice but to argue that the occupation of the capital was wrong only because the cause the occupiers were acting in support of is wrong.

It's a tougher row to hoe, but it is the option open to you. Good luck!
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: Cool Friend on January 12, 2021, 09:04:11 AM
jehovasfitness: one is legitimate because it is based on well-documented, observable reality, and the other is illegitimate because it is based on well-documented, observable lies.
maizefolk: wow so one is illegitimate simply because you disagree with it??

@Cool Friend  hat is a mischaracterization of my post (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/america-on-the-precipice-what-are-you-doing/msg2771980/#msg2771980), which you quoted alongside this statement.

If you're prefer the TL;DR version:

The illegitimacy or legitimacy of a cause shouldn't have to be a factor in condemning the occupation of the capitol building. That action, in of itself, is and should be out of bounds.

Politically, focusing on the tactic being out of bounds gets something like 7/8 americans to agree with you (making it easier to impose consequences on those responsible).

If you focus on whether or not they both agree with the justifications for the black lives matters protests AND disagree with the justifications given for storming the capitol you end up with a lot less and make it more likely people like Cruz and Hawley get off scot-free.

You mischaracterized jehovaswitness post by presuming "legit" meant "agreed on," giving the belief in the verifiable lie that the election was stolen from Trump an unmerited respectability.

As Mathlete pointed out, unfortunately the legitimacy of that belief is very important to the people who believe it.

Nobody is focusing on the above underlined because the BLM protests (or riots, if that's how you see them) are totally irrelevant to the topic.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: mathlete on January 12, 2021, 09:20:40 AM
I actually disagree. If the election had actually been stolen, then we no longer live in a legitimate or functional democracy and violent revolution is probably justified.

Fair enough. In that case I agree you have no choice but to argue that the occupation of the capital was wrong only because the cause the occupiers were acting in support of is wrong.

It's a tougher row to hoe, but it is the option open to you. Good luck!

We live in a country that fetishizes merchants and landowners from the 1700s who rioted and threw tea in a harbor and then took up arms against the government over governing and tax disputes. We live in a country that is armed to the teeth under the justification that weapons are needed to rise up against a tyrannical government.

I don't think it's a tough argument to make at all. For Americans, this is what is expected of them in the face of a subversion of the will of the people.

I can blame them for being incredibly stupid and emotionally leveraged. And I do. I can want them held legally accountable for bashing Officer Sicknick's head in. And I do. But I think most of the blame should go higher.

Just a random statement from one of over 100 congressmen who supported this nonsense. On Jan 4th;

Quote
January 6th is fast approaching, the future of this Republic hinges on the actions of a solitary few.

Get ready, the fate of a nation rests on our shoulders, yours and mine. Let’s show Washington that our backbones are made of steel and titanium.

It’s time to fight.

When the context is accusations of a stolen election, and the audience is Americans, an occupation of the Capitol is exactly what this is asking for.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: maizefolk on January 12, 2021, 09:32:24 AM
You mischaracterized jehovaswitness post by presuming "legit" meant "agreed on," giving the belief in the verifiable lie that the election was stolen from Trump an unmerited respectability.

No. I said that jehovasfitness23 agreed with the BLM protests (based on him or her described them as legit). <-- note "fitness" not "witness."

I said the legitimacy of the cause people use to justify occupying the capitol shouldn't matter, the action should be off bounds regardless. In conversations with people on the right where the BLM protests come up, I have explicitly said that if protestors supporting that cause broke into the capitol and occupied it, that would also be wrong, and the people who did it (and the people who encouraged it) should be arrested and held accountable. But they didn't do that, so let's focus on holding accountable the people who did. And you know what? ... it works. The whole side tangent about BLM goes away and we can focus on what actually did happen and what should be done about it.

I also, in a separate post admittedly (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/america-on-the-precipice-what-are-you-doing/msg2771993/#msg2771993), articulated why I don't think even the violence that occurred during some of those protests should be -- or are being -- considered comparable to what happened in DC on Wednesday. I've given my view (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/america-on-the-precipice-what-are-you-doing/msg2771399/#msg2771399) that "the people who broke into congress should be arrested, given trials, convicted (which should be quite easy with the wealth of evidence they themselves collected, streamed, and posted) and sent to prison. The leaders in congress (people like Hawley and Cruz) should be expelled."


Quote

Nobody is focusing on the above underlined because the BLM protests (or riots, if that's how you see them) are totally irrelevant to the topic.

From the underlined it sounds like you are perceiving me as a right winger. For what it is worth, based on polling, election outcomes vs my own voting history, and personal observations my own guess is I'm somewhere around the 65th to 70th percentile for liberalness in our country. But obviously you can come to your own conclusions.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: John Galt incarnate! on January 12, 2021, 09:42:46 AM


 I know there aren't a ton of religious people that post here, but regardless of how religious a person is/isn't, I think most people agree that "The Golden Rule" is a pretty worthy objective for how we interact with others.

I enthusiastically agree.

The incorporation  of  The Golden Rule  in the secular sphere consists of institutions of justice that seek equitable treatment of all who come before them.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: CodingHare on January 12, 2021, 09:46:37 AM
maizefolk, I actually feel like this might be a great example of talking past each other?  I actually think we have a lot of common ground.

* We agree that violence isn't good for our democracy
* We agree that the perpetrators at the capitol need to be held accountable
* We agree that shootings that happen at any protest are bad and need to be prosecuted

Sometimes internet threads like this, it's easy to focus on what we disagree on.  Certainly, it's a big concern of mine that BLM and the Capital riots not be falsely equivocated.  My reason for worrying about it is that police response to BLM, even the peaceful protestors doing everything right, was to teargas and rubber bullet them.  Meanwhile they opened the barricades for the right wing protestors at the capital.  That is why equivalence feels dangerous to me--because enforcement of these two protest groups is NOT equal.

But overall, it seems to me like we agree more than we disagree.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: Cool Friend on January 12, 2021, 09:51:00 AM
You mischaracterized jehovaswitness post by presuming "legit" meant "agreed on," giving the belief in the verifiable lie that the election was stolen from Trump an unmerited respectability.

No. I said that jehovasfitness23 agreed with the BLM protests (based on him or her described them as legit). <-- note "fitness" not "witness."



It makes no difference. The legitimacy of either does not hinge on their support/agreement.

Quote
I said the legitimacy of the cause people use to justify occupying the capitol shouldn't matter, the action should be off bounds regardless.

Perhaps it shouldn't matter, but it does. You're not going to convince the people who stormed the Capitol or approve of doing so that it's off bounds. It already happened, remember? They did it. It was on January 6th. Remember? And they're organizing to do it again. In light of of the lies they bought into, it is justifiable resistance. You're not going to convince them that it's wrong to take back the government from a hostile power that illegally stole an election from the President. Because that's what they believe and what you have to contend with.

Quote
From the underlined it sounds like you are perceiving me as a right winger.

Another false presumption. "If" was not a word I put in there for fun.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: maizefolk on January 12, 2021, 09:58:29 AM
Perhaps it shouldn't matter, but it does. You're not going to convince the people who stormed the Capitol or approve of doing so that it's off bounds. It already happened, remember? They did it. It was on January 6th. Remember? And they're organizing to do it again. In light of of the lies they bought into, it is justifiable resistance. You're not going to convince them that it's wrong to take back the government from a hostile power that illegally stole an election from the President. Because that's what they believe and what you have to contend with.

No, but I'm having a fair bit of success at convincing people who otherwise support Trump that they don't support the people who stormed the capitol and that those who did, and those who encouraged it should be held accountable.

From the folks posting on this thread, it sounds like people who argue from the point of view that it was wrong because the cause behind it was wrong (rather than because the action was wrong) are having less success. But that is indeed an assumption on my part. Are you having much success at convincing people (edit: who didn't already vote for Biden) using that strategy?
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: mathlete on January 12, 2021, 10:05:56 AM
Perhaps it shouldn't matter, but it does. You're not going to convince the people who stormed the Capitol or approve of doing so that it's off bounds. It already happened, remember? They did it. It was on January 6th. Remember? And they're organizing to do it again. In light of of the lies they bought into, it is justifiable resistance. You're not going to convince them that it's wrong to take back the government from a hostile power that illegally stole an election from the President. Because that's what they believe and what you have to contend with.

No, but I'm having a fair bit of success at convincing people who otherwise support Trump that they don't support the people who stormed the capitol and that those who did, and those who encouraged it should be held accountable.

From the folks posting on this thread, it sounds like people who argue from the point of view that it was wrong because the cause behind it was wrong (rather than because the action was wrong) are having less success. But that is indeed an assumption on my part. Are you having much success at convincing people (edit: who didn't already vote for Biden) using that strategy?

Good on you. But this is just smoothing things over.

If the lies aren't also acknowledged as wrong, all we've done is set a precedent. One crisis of democracy and one dead cop every four years is totally acceptable now.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: jehovasfitness23 on January 12, 2021, 10:07:43 AM
Perhaps it shouldn't matter, but it does. You're not going to convince the people who stormed the Capitol or approve of doing so that it's off bounds. It already happened, remember? They did it. It was on January 6th. Remember? And they're organizing to do it again. In light of of the lies they bought into, it is justifiable resistance. You're not going to convince them that it's wrong to take back the government from a hostile power that illegally stole an election from the President. Because that's what they believe and what you have to contend with.

No, but I'm having a fair bit of success at convincing people who otherwise support Trump that they don't support the people who stormed the capitol and that those who did, and those who encouraged it should be held accountable.

From the folks posting on this thread, it sounds like people who argue from the point of view that it was wrong because the cause behind it was wrong (rather than because the action was wrong) are having less success. But that is indeed an assumption on my part. Are you having much success at convincing people (edit: who didn't already vote for Biden) using that strategy?

Supporting Trump led to this. They were warned for 4 yrs, of course they agree with it, they're just too chickenshit to admit to it. They sat idly by for 4 yrs slowly letting it all lead to it b/c they silently watched it all unfold.

At least 45% of republicans agree with it. That's a massive and sad amount, but not shocking
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: CodingHare on January 12, 2021, 10:13:54 AM
No, but I'm having a fair bit of success at convincing people who otherwise support Trump that they don't support the people who stormed the capitol and that those who did, and those who encouraged it should be held accountable.

That's good!  Being able to accept actions as wrong regardless of side is a good step for those people.  Thanks for doing that work.

From the folks posting on this thread, it sounds like people who argue from the point of view that it was wrong because the cause behind it was wrong (rather than because the action was wrong) are having less success. But that is indeed an assumption on my part. Are you having much success at convincing people using that strategy?
Given that the only Trump supporter in my family/friend group's response to gently questioning the validity of the election fraud claims was to yell, "I LOVE TRUMP, 4 MORE YEARS", no, not really.  When asking questions (not jumping to accusations) is taken as a personal attack, dialogue is dead.

I live in Western WA, so the number of Trump supporters I encounter is very low.  My parents are conservative, but neither of them voted for Trump and have been horrified through all of his Presidency.  They are Mitt Romney conservatives, who I disagree with but can have some discussion with.

I've had good success calling the election fraud claims baseless lies based on the evidence.   The line I've seen is this: People interested in dialogue based on verifiable facts respond to sourcing the many Republican nominated judges who found no evidence of election fraud across several states.  People who are emotionally attached to Trump get angry when facts are presented.  They are the ones saying the people at the capitol were actually antifa plants to make conservatives look bad.  They may condemn the violence, but they refuse to say that their side is responsible for it or even did it.

Those people, I have no idea how to make inroads with.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: maizefolk on January 12, 2021, 10:16:34 AM
If the lies aren't also acknowledged as wrong, all we've done is set a precedent. One crisis of democracy and one dead cop every four years is totally acceptable now.

I agree. But if there aren't consequences for the people who provoked the crisis that lead to the deaths. (And I count the blame for Howard Liebengood's death in addition to Brian Sicknick's) we've set an even worse precedent:

That you can attempt to overthrow the outcome of an election, and either it works or it doesn't and you can go on about your life, wait, and try again in four years.

At least 45% of republicans agree with it. That's a massive and sad amount, but not shocking

Where are you seeing 45%? The number I found was 18% of republicans.  Source: https://thehill.com/homenews/news/533452-poll-18-percent-of-republicans-support-capitol-riots
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: CodingHare on January 12, 2021, 10:18:02 AM
Does the "off topic" section not exist anymore?

It does seem like most of this thread is now focused on arguing over how to classify what happened.  90% arguing, 10% what we are doing.  A small microcosm of the human condition?  ;)  Anyway, it does seem like it now belongs in Off Topic.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: former player on January 12, 2021, 10:21:28 AM
@maizefolk

I'm impressed with how you've tackled this thread.

I don't have much to add outside that kudos. Focussing on moving past the Us vs Them argument is a noble cause, and one I wish more people would try and tackle. The divisiveness of always identifying an Other to hate and blame seems lost on way too many people, and the admittedly harder steps it takes to empathize with "them" in any avenue should be applauded.

If anyone knows for sure they are 100% right about something then they should have a good footing to understand how frustrated the other side is when they think they're 100% right. The world works in shades of grey, not absolutes.

Caveat for those that need it: The attack on the capital was insane, wrong and unprecedented. I am Canadian so have less invested in the exact topic but know that from the outside lots of the world is lumping America into its own "Them" category, which includes everyone there... Seems a bit unfair no?
I agree with a lot of this, but I am 100% sure that Trump lost an honestly held election and then he and some ambitious and weak-willed politician lied about it to millions of poor fools in order to incite insurrection.  I'm not seeing the shades of grey on that one.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: mathlete on January 12, 2021, 10:24:53 AM
Personally, I think it’s okay for communities to occasionally talk about stuff other than payoff vs mortgage or VTI vs VOO.

Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: CodingHare on January 12, 2021, 10:29:14 AM
Personally, I think it’s okay for communities to occasionally talk about stuff other than payoff vs mortgage or VTI vs VOO.

I agree.  It's precisely because I respect this community and find a lot of thoughtful posters here that I've engaged here on this topic (as well as the payoffs and Gauntlet threads.)  There's lots of good ideas here, and the general idea that intelligent people can never hope to agree on politics and shouldn't discuss them for politeness's sake has done a lot of damage to our discourse.  My understanding of the forum norms was that political content does get moved to Off Topic.  But that's a mods decision, not mine.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: maizefolk on January 12, 2021, 10:30:13 AM
Personally, I think it’s okay for communities to occasionally talk about stuff other than payoff vs mortgage or VTI vs VOO.

Yes, but that's why we have the off topic section. FWIW, I agree the thread should probably move there at this point. Which is too bad, I was really interested in the original premise, although I acknowledge contributing substantially to the derailment.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: jehovasfitness23 on January 12, 2021, 10:31:27 AM
If the lies aren't also acknowledged as wrong, all we've done is set a precedent. One crisis of democracy and one dead cop every four years is totally acceptable now.

I agree. But if there aren't consequences for the people who provoked the crisis that lead to the deaths. (And I count the blame for Howard Liebengood's death in addition to Brian Sicknick's) we've set an even worse precedent:

That you can attempt to overthrow the outcome of an election, and either it works or it doesn't and you can go on about your life, wait, and try again in four years.

At least 45% of republicans agree with it. That's a massive and sad amount, but not shocking

Where are you seeing 45%? The number I found was 18% of republicans.  Source: https://thehill.com/homenews/news/533452-poll-18-percent-of-republicans-support-capitol-riots

the hill piece should read 18% of all or something like that

https://www.news10.com/news/us-capitol-coverage/poll-one-fifth-of-voters-almost-half-of-republicans-agree-with-storming-of-us-capitol/

that also tracks with this:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/tommybeer/2020/09/02/majority-of-republicans-believe-the-qanon-conspiracy-theory-is-partly-or-mostly-true-survey-finds/
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: John Galt incarnate! on January 12, 2021, 10:32:51 AM



I actually disagree. If the election had actually been stolen, then we no longer live in a legitimate or functional democracy and violent revolution is probably justified.


Politics is a  rife with corruption because politics  and its practitioners are intrinsically Machiavellian.

 Understanding this, a stolen election alone would not suffice for me to justify violent revolution.

Only if Judge Kozinski's doomsday contingency eventuated, "where all other rights have failed," would I advocate and participate  in violent revolution.


Silveira v. Lockyer (2003)

The Second Amendment is a doomsday provision, one designed for those exceptionally rare circumstances where all other rights have failed — where the government refuses to stand for reelection and silences those who protest; where courts have lost the courage to oppose, or can find no one to enforce their decrees. However improbable these contingencies may seem today, facing them unprepared is a mistake a free people get to make only once. Judge Kozinski (Dissent)
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: maizefolk on January 12, 2021, 10:41:19 AM
the hill piece should read 18% of all or something like that

https://www.news10.com/news/us-capitol-coverage/poll-one-fifth-of-voters-almost-half-of-republicans-agree-with-storming-of-us-capitol/

that also tracks with this:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/tommybeer/2020/09/02/majority-of-republicans-believe-the-qanon-conspiracy-theory-is-partly-or-mostly-true-survey-finds/

I don't think it can be mistake in the sentence. The same number is present, using different words, at the original source: http://maristpoll.marist.edu/pbs-newshour-marist-poll-results-analysis-insurrection-at-the-capitol/#sthash.AYe9ptLF.dpbs

"Most Americans 88% either oppose or strongly oppose Wednesday's insurgency. Partisan consensus exists. Though, 18% of the GOP say they support the riots."

If 18% of all americans supported the insurgency, it wouldn't be possible for 88% of all americans to oppose or strongly oppose it.

Here is how the question was worded:

"Trump supporters broke into the U.S. Capitol to disrupt the process of certifying the results of the presidential election that showed Joe Biden won. From what you've read or heard, do you strongly support, support, oppose, or strongly oppose the actions of the Trump supporters who broke into the U.S. Capitol?"

96% of democrats, 86% of independents and 80% of republicans answered oppose or strongly oppose. (It's on page 10 of the PDF report).

Edit: After reading through the link you posted, the higher percent of total voters approving (21\%) traces back to a YouGov poll which is based on online responses. Marist/PBS has historically been much better at predicting the outcomes of elections than YouGov. It's up to you whether you feel that same accuracy translates into accuracy for more opinion based polls like this one.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: FrugalToque on January 12, 2021, 10:42:44 AM
Re: discussing the Jan 6th insurrection and trying to decide whether or not it was terrorism.

Like Chomsky, I'm going to use the US definition of terrorism: violence or the threat of violence against civilians for the purpose of changing political views.

When you blow up the WTC becuase you don't like U.S. foreign policy, you're killing civilians to change politics -> terrorism
When you blow up the USS Cole for the same reason -> act of war (those aren't civilans)

I don't know that attacking the Capitol with the recorded, stated intent to "Hang Mike Pence", capture others with plastic handcuffs and execute/ransom them, is precisely terrorism.  Do top politicians count as "civilians" in the sense we mean it?  It's more accurately insurrection and/or an act of war.

Note that it gets you on the same No-Fly List, though.

As for BLM. That's a protest movement.  Is it violent?  Violence was involved but it's always a question of who started it.  Was it using violence, explicitly, for the purpose of effecting political change?  In the same way that the Jan 6th insurrection planned to hang Mike Pence?  Not really.  There's the vague connection between, "Hey, if you'd stop murdering black people over a bag of skittles, maybe we won't burn down so many department stores."  But the movement doesn't use that in some kind of manifesto, published on the Internet, like the insurrectionists do.

My reaction to BLM is, "It's unforunate that violence is involved, but the primary issue is centuries of mistreating African Americans."

My reaction to the Capitol insurrection is, "These people are a bunch of white supremacists who are clearly misinformed, willfully and aggressively ignorant, and were allowed to do horribly violent things that anyone in the BLM movement would have been murdered for before they even got into the Capitol building."

I can't see equating them.  The BLM people are factually correct about mistreatment.  The Trump supporters are factually incorrect and wave racist symbols around.  Pretending that we can divide or equate them by assigning/not-assigning them the label "terrorist" is probably missing a lot of facts in order to assign labels.

Labels, I've been reliably told, are the opposite of understanding.

My purpose is understanding (that and making sure white supremacists and other assholes don't use this forum for their views.)

Toque.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: dreadmoose on January 12, 2021, 11:15:39 AM
@maizefolk

I'm impressed with how you've tackled this thread.

I don't have much to add outside that kudos. Focussing on moving past the Us vs Them argument is a noble cause, and one I wish more people would try and tackle. The divisiveness of always identifying an Other to hate and blame seems lost on way too many people, and the admittedly harder steps it takes to empathize with "them" in any avenue should be applauded.

If anyone knows for sure they are 100% right about something then they should have a good footing to understand how frustrated the other side is when they think they're 100% right. The world works in shades of grey, not absolutes.

Caveat for those that need it: The attack on the capital was insane, wrong and unprecedented. I am Canadian so have less invested in the exact topic but know that from the outside lots of the world is lumping America into its own "Them" category, which includes everyone there... Seems a bit unfair no?
I agree with a lot of this, but I am 100% sure that Trump lost an honestly held election and then he and some ambitious and weak-willed politician lied about it to millions of poor fools in order to incite insurrection.  I'm not seeing the shades of grey on that one.

I agree.

The people who stormed the capital were led there by lies and deceit they should have seen it coming. The shades get added when people start expanding that out to everyone at Trumps rally, then to everyone that voted Trump, then to every Republican. Creating groups to hate causes more division, but because it's the simplest way to tackle a topic and feel good (I'm right, and they're wrong) it's hard to move past.

Not a reply to you: I recommend anyone that repeatedly thinks that they are more learned and have read way more about a topic without having even asked others how much they have to take a good look at how radicalized they sound. "I know more so your opinion doesn't matter" is a feeble argument. We know you agree with yourself, but justifying that your opinion is the only one that deserves any light is kind of how this mess got started.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: seattlecyclone on January 12, 2021, 11:47:26 AM
My reading of history is that indulging "election integrity" usually means making it harder to vote. More hoops to jump through. No same day registration. Voter ID. That stuff.

Just because "election integrity" has been framed in a way so as to advance Apartheid doe snot mean it has to always be that way.

The non-crazy people can steal their framing and use that against the crazy ones :-D.

--------------------------------------

I think the Dems need to learn to use the Right's rhetoric against them. Even though I am apprehensive of Big Tech's powers, I am loving every bit of the a*se-whopping that the "corporations are people" are getting. More than any good arguments, I think real consequences may convince some crazies to become less crazy.

You like to live dangerously, huh? :)

Think about it.

"Election Integrity" has two legs:
1. All valid voters can vote without any undue barriers and their vote is counted.
2. No invalid votes are counted.

The "Right" gets all wound up on the fictitious issues they perceive with #2, while intentionally screwing up #1. Rather than trying to badmouth the phrase "election integrity" itself, I think the Dems should just rhetorically support it with the clarification that they want both of the issues with election integrity addressed. Simple.

You will, of course, suddenly see the right dislike "election integrity", because they love their Apartheid. But in the confusion some good laws might get passed that addresses #1.


This. When the choices presented are #1 or #2, I tend to agree with the Democrats that #1 is more important given the rarity of invalid votes happening in practice. However I am somewhat angry that both parties seem to accept the or framing rather than trying to achieve #1 and #2. I'd be really happy to see us move to a system where there's a little bit more verification of voter eligibility, and we also go out of our way to make sure every eligible voter has easy access to the documents they need to prove their eligibility.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: former player on January 12, 2021, 11:57:08 AM
My reading of history is that indulging "election integrity" usually means making it harder to vote. More hoops to jump through. No same day registration. Voter ID. That stuff.

Just because "election integrity" has been framed in a way so as to advance Apartheid doe snot mean it has to always be that way.

The non-crazy people can steal their framing and use that against the crazy ones :-D.

--------------------------------------

I think the Dems need to learn to use the Right's rhetoric against them. Even though I am apprehensive of Big Tech's powers, I am loving every bit of the a*se-whopping that the "corporations are people" are getting. More than any good arguments, I think real consequences may convince some crazies to become less crazy.

You like to live dangerously, huh? :)

Think about it.

"Election Integrity" has two legs:
1. All valid voters can vote without any undue barriers and their vote is counted.
2. No invalid votes are counted.

The "Right" gets all wound up on the fictitious issues they perceive with #2, while intentionally screwing up #1. Rather than trying to badmouth the phrase "election integrity" itself, I think the Dems should just rhetorically support it with the clarification that they want both of the issues with election integrity addressed. Simple.

You will, of course, suddenly see the right dislike "election integrity", because they love their Apartheid. But in the confusion some good laws might get passed that addresses #1.


This. When the choices presented are #1 or #2, I tend to agree with the Democrats that #1 is more important given the rarity of invalid votes happening in practice. However I am somewhat angry that both parties seem to accept the or framing rather than trying to achieve #1 and #2. I'd be really happy to see us move to a system where there's a little bit more verification of voter eligibility, and we also go out of our way to make sure every eligible voter has easy access to the documents they need to prove their eligibility.
Given the rabid search by Republicans for evidence of fraud in the 2020 Presidential election and its complete and utter failure, #2 has already been achieved.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: FrugalToque on January 12, 2021, 12:03:25 PM
My reading of history is that indulging "election integrity" usually means making it harder to vote. More hoops to jump through. No same day registration. Voter ID. That stuff.

Just because "election integrity" has been framed in a way so as to advance Apartheid doe snot mean it has to always be that way.

The non-crazy people can steal their framing and use that against the crazy ones :-D.

--------------------------------------

I think the Dems need to learn to use the Right's rhetoric against them. Even though I am apprehensive of Big Tech's powers, I am loving every bit of the a*se-whopping that the "corporations are people" are getting. More than any good arguments, I think real consequences may convince some crazies to become less crazy.

You like to live dangerously, huh? :)

Think about it.

"Election Integrity" has two legs:
1. All valid voters can vote without any undue barriers and their vote is counted.
2. No invalid votes are counted.

The "Right" gets all wound up on the fictitious issues they perceive with #2, while intentionally screwing up #1. Rather than trying to badmouth the phrase "election integrity" itself, I think the Dems should just rhetorically support it with the clarification that they want both of the issues with election integrity addressed. Simple.

You will, of course, suddenly see the right dislike "election integrity", because they love their Apartheid. But in the confusion some good laws might get passed that addresses #1.


This. When the choices presented are #1 or #2, I tend to agree with the Democrats that #1 is more important given the rarity of invalid votes happening in practice. However I am somewhat angry that both parties seem to accept the or framing rather than trying to achieve #1 and #2. I'd be really happy to see us move to a system where there's a little bit more verification of voter eligibility, and we also go out of our way to make sure every eligible voter has easy access to the documents they need to prove their eligibility.
Given the rabid search by Republicans for evidence of fraud in the 2020 Presidential election and its complete and utter failure, #2 has already been achieved.
Yeah, how many hundreds of thousands of people - maybe millions - have been unable to vote because they're supposedly worried about the 4 or 5 people who stole their grandmother's mail-in ballot or whatever?  It's getting a little silly, tbh.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: mathlete on January 12, 2021, 12:24:53 PM
Wondering how "off topic" this is when a core part of the MMM philosophy is, "Herp derp, why doesn't everyone just be a rich white guy who is completely and totally insulated from current events?"
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: seattlecyclone on January 12, 2021, 12:27:54 PM
This. When the choices presented are #1 or #2, I tend to agree with the Democrats that #1 is more important given the rarity of invalid votes happening in practice. However I am somewhat angry that both parties seem to accept the or framing rather than trying to achieve #1 and #2. I'd be really happy to see us move to a system where there's a little bit more verification of voter eligibility, and we also go out of our way to make sure every eligible voter has easy access to the documents they need to prove their eligibility.
Given the rabid search by Republicans for evidence of fraud in the 2020 Presidential election and its complete and utter failure, #2 has already been achieved.
Yeah, how many hundreds of thousands of people - maybe millions - have been unable to vote because they're supposedly worried about the 4 or 5 people who stole their grandmother's mail-in ballot or whatever?  It's getting a little silly, tbh.

What I would say to both of you is this: Trump's presidency has been a prime example of how weaknesses in the system can and will be exploited eventually. Before Trump there was never a president who tried to profit off the presidency by granting favor to foreign dignitaries who would spend money staying at his properties. Before Trump there was never a president who pardoned people who were convicted of felonies related to his own bad behavior. These things, and so many others, never had any organized system put in place to prevent them, because they were just Not Done and we trusted our presidents to act within certain bounds of propriety. I think it's great that we've had no evidence of any significant quantities of illegitimate votes...yet. I also would like to see existing weaknesses in the system addressed in a way that does not prevent legitimate voters from casting ballots.

As I stated in my previous post, I agree with you that the evidence points toward #1 being a much bigger issue at present than #2, and yet I'd like to stop with the framing that we can only do one or the other. Let's find a way to make both happen.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: former player on January 12, 2021, 12:33:48 PM
This. When the choices presented are #1 or #2, I tend to agree with the Democrats that #1 is more important given the rarity of invalid votes happening in practice. However I am somewhat angry that both parties seem to accept the or framing rather than trying to achieve #1 and #2. I'd be really happy to see us move to a system where there's a little bit more verification of voter eligibility, and we also go out of our way to make sure every eligible voter has easy access to the documents they need to prove their eligibility.
Given the rabid search by Republicans for evidence of fraud in the 2020 Presidential election and its complete and utter failure, #2 has already been achieved.
Yeah, how many hundreds of thousands of people - maybe millions - have been unable to vote because they're supposedly worried about the 4 or 5 people who stole their grandmother's mail-in ballot or whatever?  It's getting a little silly, tbh.

What I would say to both of you is this: Trump's presidency has been a prime example of how weaknesses in the system can and will be exploited eventually. Before Trump there was never a president who tried to profit off the presidency by granting favor to foreign dignitaries who would spend money staying at his properties. Before Trump there was never a president who pardoned people who were convicted of felonies related to his own bad behavior. These things, and so many others, never had any organized system put in place to prevent them, because they were just Not Done and we trusted our presidents to act within certain bounds of propriety. I think it's great that we've had no evidence of any significant quantities of illegitimate votes...yet. I also would like to see existing weaknesses in the system addressed in a way that does not prevent legitimate voters from casting ballots.

As I stated in my previous post, I agree with you that the evidence points toward #1 being a much bigger issue at present than #2, and yet I'd like to stop with the framing that we can only do one or the other. Let's find a way to make both happen.
The weakness in the system that Trump exploited was not weaknesses in the electoral system, it was weaknesses in social media that allowed him to spread lies and sedition.  It was weaknesses in the mainstream media that did not call out his lies.  It was weaknesses in the Republican Party that enabled and supported his lies and sedition.  The electoral system held firm.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: FrugalToque on January 12, 2021, 12:50:50 PM
Wondering how "off topic" this is when a core part of the MMM philosophy is, "Herp derp, why doesn't everyone just be a rich white guy who is completely and totally insulated from current events?"
There's always a concern, when one maintains a focus on one aspect of existence, that one is doing this to the exclusion of all else.

It shouldn't be the case that having a "Low Information Diet", which refers mostly to ignoring 24 hour cable news and celebrity gossip, means that one believes racism and classism don't exist.

There's an effort here by we moderators, on this forum, to evict the worst racists, moderate where infringements occur, and make sure we're a positive force - all while making sure this stays an Early Retirement Forum.

As the same time, we are aware of the way Early Retirement has a "(White) Boys' Club" feel to it and I toss out sexist pricks occasionally, too and try to keep the language here as accessible as possible in this free-for-all of hundreds of thousands of messages.

Toque.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: ericrugiero on January 12, 2021, 01:06:00 PM
My reading of history is that indulging "election integrity" usually means making it harder to vote. More hoops to jump through. No same day registration. Voter ID. That stuff.

Just because "election integrity" has been framed in a way so as to advance Apartheid doe snot mean it has to always be that way.

The non-crazy people can steal their framing and use that against the crazy ones :-D.

--------------------------------------

I think the Dems need to learn to use the Right's rhetoric against them. Even though I am apprehensive of Big Tech's powers, I am loving every bit of the a*se-whopping that the "corporations are people" are getting. More than any good arguments, I think real consequences may convince some crazies to become less crazy.

You like to live dangerously, huh? :)

Think about it.

"Election Integrity" has two legs:
1. All valid voters can vote without any undue barriers and their vote is counted.
2. No invalid votes are counted.

The "Right" gets all wound up on the fictitious issues they perceive with #2, while intentionally screwing up #1. Rather than trying to badmouth the phrase "election integrity" itself, I think the Dems should just rhetorically support it with the clarification that they want both of the issues with election integrity addressed. Simple.

You will, of course, suddenly see the right dislike "election integrity", because they love their Apartheid. But in the confusion some good laws might get passed that addresses #1.


This. When the choices presented are #1 or #2, I tend to agree with the Democrats that #1 is more important given the rarity of invalid votes happening in practice. However I am somewhat angry that both parties seem to accept the or framing rather than trying to achieve #1 and #2. I'd be really happy to see us move to a system where there's a little bit more verification of voter eligibility, and we also go out of our way to make sure every eligible voter has easy access to the documents they need to prove their eligibility.

YES!  When each party is focused on one of the two legs we end up not doing a good job of either.  Why can't we do both well? 

We need to do a better job of making sure all areas of the country have places to vote that are accessible without traveling long distances or waiting in long lines.  Tons of people voted early here.  If we allow that in the areas with long lines, it should spread out the crowds and shorten the lines. 

At the same time, is it really that big a deal to prove who you are in order to vote?  I know some people don't have state issued ID's.  Let's figure out a way around that problem.  What does everyone have?  Birth Certificate?  SS card?  It can't be that hard to figure out.  Maybe we issue a voter ID card for people who register and don't already have a gov issued ID.  You couldn't do that the same day but I'm not sure we should allow someone to register to vote the day of the election.  It's not like the election date isn't known years ahead of time.  Publicize the last day to register and then vote two weeks later (or however long we need).  If someone isn't willing to register ahead of time (and we don't make it difficult) they aren't very motivated to vote. 

If we do a better job of providing places to vote and allow more early in-person voting then there doesn't need to be so much mail in voting.  (especially since most elections won't take place in a pandemic)  Reducing/eliminating mail in ballots would reduce the risk of fraud.  We need absentee ballots for military and others who are away for long times, but outside of a pandemic, is there really a need for mail in voting from people who live within 15 minutes of a polling place? 
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: maizefolk on January 12, 2021, 01:14:56 PM
I agree.

The people who stormed the capital were led there by lies and deceit they should have seen it coming. The shades get added when people start expanding that out to everyone at Trumps rally, then to everyone that voted Trump, then to every Republican. Creating groups to hate causes more division, but because it's the simplest way to tackle a topic and feel good (I'm right, and they're wrong) it's hard to move past.

This summarizes things really well dreadmoose. And I really appreciate posters like CodingHare who have made a similar distinction of holding accountable the people responsible without sabotaging ourselves by trying to expand out our definition of those responsible to too large a group. If we can stay focused on imposing severe consequences on the people who stormed the capital and the people who lead them there, we line up most of the country (well 88% of us) on the same side.

It is interesting to me that there are two natural human instincts at play here about how to deal with people who do bad things. And the two instincts are in direct contradiction to each other.

-One strategy to hold people accountable is ostracism. You (the person who did the bad thing) are cut out of our life, and so is anyone who continues to talk to you or help you.

-Another strategy is to get together big group of people who all agree it was bad (forming a posse*) and go after the person who did the bad thing.

Ostracism works well as a punishment when the vast majority of people are all in agreement about imposing the punishment and only a small number of people or a single individual is being punished. Otherwise, the strategy either fizzles out, or degenerates into two warring tribes which punishes everyone, the bad and the good. Forming a posse to go after the bad people can work even when agreement is less complete or the group to be punished is larger. But it specifically requires bringing as many people as possible together while also trying to peal as many people away from the bad side as possible so you'll outnumber the bad people you are going after by a lot. This necessity (build up the number of people on my side, while pealing away people on theirs) is in conflict with the ostracism approach where anyone who has any connection with the same bad people is also bad and should also be punished.

I wonder is some of the big disagreements we see with regard to strategy in threads like this one are the result of different people's subconsciouses having very different senses of how common Trump supporters/republican voters are in our day to day lives.

*I'm using this term here, but this strategy is the same one you see employed in anything from trying to win local elections to world wars. It's not an ideal term, since, while for many people it'll bring with it the idea of westerns, for others they'll think of the role of some posse's in lynchings in the south. If someone has a better term for this strategy, I'm all for renaming it. The problem with both strategies is that they work equally well when the majority of society is focused on punishing a thing that is genuinely bad, and when they are focused on punishing a thing that is not. I've yet to see any approach to punishing bad people that only works when the people being punished really are bad.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: former player on January 12, 2021, 01:21:34 PM
My reading of history is that indulging "election integrity" usually means making it harder to vote. More hoops to jump through. No same day registration. Voter ID. That stuff.

Just because "election integrity" has been framed in a way so as to advance Apartheid doe snot mean it has to always be that way.

The non-crazy people can steal their framing and use that against the crazy ones :-D.

--------------------------------------

I think the Dems need to learn to use the Right's rhetoric against them. Even though I am apprehensive of Big Tech's powers, I am loving every bit of the a*se-whopping that the "corporations are people" are getting. More than any good arguments, I think real consequences may convince some crazies to become less crazy.

You like to live dangerously, huh? :)

Think about it.

"Election Integrity" has two legs:
1. All valid voters can vote without any undue barriers and their vote is counted.
2. No invalid votes are counted.

The "Right" gets all wound up on the fictitious issues they perceive with #2, while intentionally screwing up #1. Rather than trying to badmouth the phrase "election integrity" itself, I think the Dems should just rhetorically support it with the clarification that they want both of the issues with election integrity addressed. Simple.

You will, of course, suddenly see the right dislike "election integrity", because they love their Apartheid. But in the confusion some good laws might get passed that addresses #1.


This. When the choices presented are #1 or #2, I tend to agree with the Democrats that #1 is more important given the rarity of invalid votes happening in practice. However I am somewhat angry that both parties seem to accept the or framing rather than trying to achieve #1 and #2. I'd be really happy to see us move to a system where there's a little bit more verification of voter eligibility, and we also go out of our way to make sure every eligible voter has easy access to the documents they need to prove their eligibility.

YES!  When each party is focused on one of the two legs we end up not doing a good job of either.  Why can't we do both well? 

We need to do a better job of making sure all areas of the country have places to vote that are accessible without traveling long distances or waiting in long lines.  Tons of people voted early here.  If we allow that in the areas with long lines, it should spread out the crowds and shorten the lines. 

At the same time, is it really that big a deal to prove who you are in order to vote?  I know some people don't have state issued ID's.  Let's figure out a way around that problem.  What does everyone have?  Birth Certificate?  SS card?  It can't be that hard to figure out.  Maybe we issue a voter ID card for people who register and don't already have a gov issued ID.  You couldn't do that the same day but I'm not sure we should allow someone to register to vote the day of the election.  It's not like the election date isn't known years ahead of time.  Publicize the last day to register and then vote two weeks later (or however long we need).  If someone isn't willing to register ahead of time (and we don't make it difficult) they aren't very motivated to vote. 

If we do a better job of providing places to vote and allow more early in-person voting then there doesn't need to be so much mail in voting.  (especially since most elections won't take place in a pandemic)  Reducing/eliminating mail in ballots would reduce the risk of fraud.  We need absentee ballots for military and others who are away for long times, but outside of a pandemic, is there really a need for mail in voting from people who live within 15 minutes of a polling place?
My understanding is that the long lines, the limited places to vote and the difficulty in getting an appropriate ID have been deliberate, racist, tactics to reduce the Black vote.  Which is why those pictures of long lines to vote, and long waiting times, whether for early voting or voting on the day, show long lines of people of colour not long lines of wealthy white suburbanites.

And the risk of fraud is negligible, as demonstrated by the 60 Republican legal challenges to the 2020 Presidential election, not one of which alleged fraud.

At this point in the discussion I'm not clear why you are still being so deliberately obtuse - and that's me being polite.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: GuitarStv on January 12, 2021, 01:35:02 PM
It's kinda embarrassing how difficult the US makes voting for it's citizens.  I can't think of any other democratic country that does it worse.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: ctuser1 on January 12, 2021, 02:04:52 PM
You couldn't do that the same day but I'm not sure we should allow someone to register to vote the day of the election.  It's not like the election date isn't known years ahead of time.  Publicize the last day to register and then vote two weeks later (or however long we need).  If someone isn't willing to register ahead of time (and we don't make it difficult) they aren't very motivated to vote. 

Just because an 18-year-old teen mom in Detroit, or a homeless in NYC is less motivated to vote, it does not necessarily follow that their voice is less important than that of a landed white farmer in a rural area.

There are many ways to get around the "integrity" objections about same-day registrations. make them vote provisionally perhaps, which will only count if the race is close. If the provisional votes are being counted, then make the burden of proof reside with the election officials and the partisan poll-watchers in order to discard the vote.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: ericrugiero on January 12, 2021, 02:18:41 PM
My understanding is that the long lines, the limited places to vote and the difficulty in getting an appropriate ID have been deliberate, racist, tactics to reduce the Black vote.  Which is why those pictures of long lines to vote, and long waiting times, whether for early voting or voting on the day, show long lines of people of colour not long lines of wealthy white suburbanites.
I know that's the perception and there may be some truth to it.  Regardless, I think we should change it because everyone should have the option to vote. 

And the risk of fraud is negligible, as demonstrated by the 60 Republican legal challenges to the 2020 Presidential election, not one of which alleged fraud.
I don't agree that it's negligible.  Whether it happened this past election there is still the possibility.  All American's should want to reduce the instances of fraud. 

At this point in the discussion I'm not clear why you are still being so deliberately obtuse - and that's me being polite.
I'm not being deliberately obtuse.  My political views are different than most on this board but I can assure you I want nothing more than a fair democratic election in which everyone has the opportunity to vote and only legal votes are counted.  I will live with the results whether I like them or not.   
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: kei te pai on January 12, 2021, 02:21:58 PM
https://www.mediadesignschool.com/news/mds-creative-advertising-alumni-are-encouraging-overseas-kiwis-vote

In NZ the Russians helped enrol voters (its a joke just in case some find it not funny!)
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: ericrugiero on January 12, 2021, 02:23:10 PM
You couldn't do that the same day but I'm not sure we should allow someone to register to vote the day of the election.  It's not like the election date isn't known years ahead of time.  Publicize the last day to register and then vote two weeks later (or however long we need).  If someone isn't willing to register ahead of time (and we don't make it difficult) they aren't very motivated to vote. 

Just because an 18-year-old teen mom in Detroit, or a homeless in NYC is less motivated to vote, it does not necessarily follow that their voice is less important than that of a landed white farmer in a rural area.

Their vote is absolutely 100% as important as mine, yours or anyone else's.  I never said or meant to imply anything different.  But, I am very willing to spend an hour registering to vote to ensure a fair election and I would expect anyone who cares about democracy to do the same. 
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: GuitarStv on January 12, 2021, 02:30:01 PM
You couldn't do that the same day but I'm not sure we should allow someone to register to vote the day of the election.  It's not like the election date isn't known years ahead of time.  Publicize the last day to register and then vote two weeks later (or however long we need).  If someone isn't willing to register ahead of time (and we don't make it difficult) they aren't very motivated to vote. 

Just because an 18-year-old teen mom in Detroit, or a homeless in NYC is less motivated to vote, it does not necessarily follow that their voice is less important than that of a landed white farmer in a rural area.

Their vote is absolutely 100% as important as mine, yours or anyone else's.  I never said or meant to imply anything different.  But, I am very willing to spend an hour registering to vote to ensure a fair election and I would expect anyone who cares about democracy to do the same.

Not true at all.  In the American system, rural votes are more important than the 18 year old mom in Detroit, or the guy in NYC.  Rural votes count for more and are not equal.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: ctuser1 on January 12, 2021, 02:30:31 PM
And the risk of fraud is negligible, as demonstrated by the 60 Republican legal challenges to the 2020 Presidential election, not one of which alleged fraud.
I don't agree that it's negligible.  Whether it happened this past election there is still the possibility.  All American's should want to reduce the instances of fraud. 

Yes, all American's should want to reduce real fraud.

Has widespread occurrence of "real fraud" been proven? I can cite quite a few studies detailing real disenfranchisement.

Fraud and disenfranchisement are both bad - right? 1 vote of fraud <=just as bad as> 1 disenfranchised voter. So perhaps we should take the same approach banks take with signature verification for checks. If measure A reduces possibility of fraud by X%, but increases disenfranchisement by Y%, then the value of (X - Y) adjusted for the cost of implementing A should determine whether that particular measure should be implemented or not - no?

The problem most people have with the right is that they want to do real, intentional disenfranchisement and voter suppression in order to chase fictitious fraud that hasn't ever been proven anywhere.

You couldn't do that the same day but I'm not sure we should allow someone to register to vote the day of the election.  It's not like the election date isn't known years ahead of time.  Publicize the last day to register and then vote two weeks later (or however long we need).  If someone isn't willing to register ahead of time (and we don't make it difficult) they aren't very motivated to vote. 

Just because an 18-year-old teen mom in Detroit, or a homeless in NYC is less motivated to vote, it does not necessarily follow that their voice is less important than that of a landed white farmer in a rural area.

Their vote is absolutely 100% as important as mine, yours or anyone else's.  I never said or meant to imply anything different.  But, I am very willing to spend an hour registering to vote to ensure a fair election and I would expect anyone who cares about democracy to do the same.

Certain groups of people are underrepresented, per voter turnout data, and their votes count less.
Anyone who cares about democracy would want to reduce that discrepancy.

Voter turnout data till 2018 (could not find reputable source for 2020 data in my 5 minutes of google):
http://www.electproject.org/home/voter-turnout/demographics
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: American GenX on January 12, 2021, 05:21:11 PM
Yeah, if you don't vote, your vote doesn't count for much.  Imagine that.  lol

Voting was very easy for me - in and out in a few minutes.  I'm not sure why anyone would say that's "difficult"  They didn't ask to see any ID, but I did have to sign a paper.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: Kris on January 12, 2021, 05:29:20 PM
Yeah, if you don't vote, your vote doesn't count for much.  Imagine that.  lol

Voting was very easy for me - in and out in a few minutes.  I'm not sure why anyone would say that's "difficult"  They didn't ask to see any ID, but I did have to sign a paper.

If you were in and out in a few minutes, you are likely not part of the demographic that Republicans are trying to suppress.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: ctuser1 on January 12, 2021, 05:31:35 PM
Yeah, if you don't vote, your vote doesn't count for much.  Imagine that.  lol

Voting was very easy for me - in and out in a few minutes.  I'm not sure why anyone would say that's "difficult"  They didn't ask to see any ID, but I did have to sign a paper.

Yeah! A Gen-X white (?) mustachian living in a blue state (?) did not have his vote suppressed. Take that!! lol..
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: Sid Hoffman on January 12, 2021, 08:23:11 PM
It's kinda embarrassing how difficult the US makes voting for it's citizens.  I can't think of any other democratic country that does it worse.
The problem is the generalizations. The "US" doesn't do voting at all. There's no such thing as a US election. What happens is 3142 county elections take place among all the states and D.C., each with its own rules and people running their local show. That's 3142 different voting authorities reporting up through a minimum of 51 state governments plus various other places like Guam, PR, and others that hold elections, just not for federal offices.

I've noticed a lot of people seem to not understand that the US is a lot like the EU in terms of just how much autonomy each individual state has, separate from the overall governing body. The US has more cohesion than the EU, but there's still a very clear separation between states in the same way that nations within the EU are clearly separate as well.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: Travis on January 12, 2021, 08:29:42 PM
It's kinda embarrassing how difficult the US makes voting for it's citizens.  I can't think of any other democratic country that does it worse.
The problem is the generalizations. The "US" doesn't do voting at all. There's no such thing as a US election. What happens is 3142 county elections take place among all the states and D.C., each with its own rules and people running their local show. That's 3142 different voting authorities reporting up through a minimum of 51 state governments plus various other places like Guam, PR, and others that hold elections, just not for federal offices.

I've noticed a lot of people seem to not understand that the US is a lot like the EU in terms of just how much autonomy each individual state has, separate from the overall governing body. The US has more cohesion than the EU, but there's still a very clear separation between states in the same way that nations within the EU are clearly separate as well.

Don't give them too much grief, there's a sizeable part of Congress that doesn't understand this either.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: MilesTeg on January 12, 2021, 08:58:39 PM
Wondering how "off topic" this is when a core part of the MMM philosophy is, "Herp derp, why doesn't everyone just be a rich white guy who is completely and totally insulated from current events?"
There's always a concern, when one maintains a focus on one aspect of existence, that one is doing this to the exclusion of all else.

It shouldn't be the case that having a "Low Information Diet", which refers mostly to ignoring 24 hour cable news and celebrity gossip, means that one believes racism and classism don't exist.

There's an effort here by we moderators, on this forum, to evict the worst racists, moderate where infringements occur, and make sure we're a positive force - all while making sure this stays an Early Retirement Forum.

As the same time, we are aware of the way Early Retirement has a "(White) Boys' Club" feel to it and I toss out sexist pricks occasionally, too and try to keep the language here as accessible as possible in this free-for-all of hundreds of thousands of messages.

Toque.

I fully approve of the move as this thread has gone a direction I did not intend. I had hoped to spark some discussion about how people like us would evaluate our current life and financial strategy in light of the current events but that's not what happened. Oh well.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: Davnasty on January 12, 2021, 10:13:28 PM
Yeah, if you don't vote, your vote doesn't count for much.  Imagine that.  lol

Voting was very easy for me - in and out in a few minutes.  I'm not sure why anyone would say that's "difficult"  They didn't ask to see any ID, but I did have to sign a paper.

Not all polling locations are created equal.

https://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2020-54240651

Quote from:  bbc
In Georgia, thousands of voters waited hours just to cast their ballot during early voting. Many attribute the long wait to voter enthusiasm, but other factors - like a limited number of polls, understaffing or computer glitches - have also been blamed.

Here are some personal accounts of people who waited as long as 11 hours

https://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2020-54532189

Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: ctuser1 on January 12, 2021, 11:06:12 PM
Yeah, if you don't vote, your vote doesn't count for much.  Imagine that.  lol

Voting was very easy for me - in and out in a few minutes.  I'm not sure why anyone would say that's "difficult"  They didn't ask to see any ID, but I did have to sign a paper.

Not all polling locations are created equal.

https://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2020-54240651

Quote from:  bbc
In Georgia, thousands of voters waited hours just to cast their ballot during early voting. Many attribute the long wait to voter enthusiasm, but other factors - like a limited number of polls, understaffing or computer glitches - have also been blamed.

Here are some personal accounts of people who waited as long as 11 hours

https://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2020-54532189

The examples you show are all "undesirable" voters.

Why do you think an upstanding, 'conservative', 'real American' like American GenX should have to care about their issues with voting?

I'm sure the delays turned many people off voting, as intended and should be!
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: Khaetra on January 13, 2021, 05:20:44 AM
I fully approve of the move as this thread has gone a direction I did not intend. I had hoped to spark some discussion about how people like us would evaluate our current life and financial strategy in light of the current events but that's not what happened. Oh well.

To get back on track here...

While I don't think much will happen in my neck of the woods, I did cancel my doctor's appointment that was on the 20th.  The office is right next to a Govt building and if I don't have to put myself near where a situation might happen, then it's best to stay away.

Money-wise, I am leaving everything where it is and have a small amount of emergency cash (small bills) on hand, but I always have that just in case. 

As far as food, sadly due to my diet 99% of all the things folks usually stock up on are off my eat list but I do have a freezer full of chicken and a way to cook it, but I really doubt things are going to get that bad.

I just plan on staying home until after the inauguration, keeping an eye on the news (especially local) and either working on some of my crafts/play video games/putter around the house.  Hopefully thing will calm down soon.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: cerat0n1a on January 13, 2021, 06:23:14 AM
I've noticed a lot of people seem to not understand that the US is a lot like the EU in terms of just how much autonomy each individual state has, separate from the overall governing body. The US has more cohesion than the EU, but there's still a very clear separation between states in the same way that nations within the EU are clearly separate as well.

Nevertheless, the EU is able to organise elections for the European Parliament in a way that doesn't lead to any difficulties whatsoever (400 million people eligible to vote, higher participation rates than the US, even though the thing is largely a rubber stamping body). India, a country of 1 billion people, with hundreds of languages, multiple ethnic groups and religions, way higher levels of illiteracy, and arguably more at stake seems to be able to organise elections that have a result available the next day and without any tangible claims of elections being stolen, problems with a peaceful transition and power and so on.

To vote here, I have to annually confirm (online, or by post) my address. That gets me on the electoral register and takes seconds. When there's an election, I can vote by post, online, or (what most people do), I can walk a couple of minutes to a local school, government building, or in my case, our village hall, and vote in person. If I wanted to drive there, I could do. If I want to have someone cast my vote for me, I can appoint someone to do that. If I stand in line, it's for a minute at most. The whole process of selecting your president doesn't exactly give a favourable view of the country, to say to the least.

This does mean there are things that users of this forum can *do*. The US has a uniquely participatory democratic system in comparison to the above places. You're voting for plenty of other things, not just a President. You all have the chance to influence one of those 3142 electoral systems. You all have an opportunity to do something about voter registration. In the most talked about presidential election ever, fewer than half of the US population voted. Of course, plenty of the population is too young, or too foreign, but there's still a sizeable proportion who couldn't or wouldn't vote.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: maizefolk on January 13, 2021, 06:39:47 AM
In the most talked about presidential election ever, fewer than half of the US population voted. Of course, plenty of the population is too young, or too foreign, but there's still a sizeable proportion who couldn't or wouldn't vote.

In the 2019 UK general election 67.3% of registered voters voted. This was the election with Brexit on the line wasn't it? So it seems like folks should have been pretty motivated to turn out and vote.

In the 2020 US presidential election 66.7% of potentially eligible voters (including both registered voters and people who could have registered to vote and hadn't) voted.

That's not to discount that some states make it much harder to vote than others, and that we should have some sort of national minimum standard for voting access (right now we don't so some people wait in line for hours, and other people are in and out in 5-10 minutes). But it doesn't seem like we're actually lagging that far behind you folks on the other side the the Atlantic in terms of how many of us actually do vote.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: maizefolk on January 13, 2021, 06:54:35 AM
A bit closer to being back on topic:

I work at a university and some of the people I work with will be teaching on Tuesday during the inauguration. They're worried enough about violence and unexpected outcomes that they're trying to come up with plans for what to do at what level. How bad can things get and you keep teaching class like nothing is happening? Is there a window where you acknowledge something is happening but go on with the lecture? When do you just cancel class entirely?

It's probably good planning to do anyway, better than trying to make the decision in the spur of the moment.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: GuitarStv on January 13, 2021, 07:21:55 AM
It's kinda embarrassing how difficult the US makes voting for it's citizens.  I can't think of any other democratic country that does it worse.
The problem is the generalizations. The "US" doesn't do voting at all. There's no such thing as a US election. What happens is 3142 county elections take place among all the states and D.C., each with its own rules and people running their local show. That's 3142 different voting authorities reporting up through a minimum of 51 state governments plus various other places like Guam, PR, and others that hold elections, just not for federal offices.

I've noticed a lot of people seem to not understand that the US is a lot like the EU in terms of just how much autonomy each individual state has, separate from the overall governing body. The US has more cohesion than the EU, but there's still a very clear separation between states in the same way that nations within the EU are clearly separate as well.

I'm fully aware of the Byzantine and totally unnecessary set of rules that have been implemented around voting - and have the temerity to argue that it's still stupid.  Elections should be standardized and held in the same manner across the country.  The current system is an embarrassment - and results are worse than basically every other democratic country I can think of.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: ctuser1 on January 13, 2021, 08:18:31 AM
It's kinda embarrassing how difficult the US makes voting for it's citizens.  I can't think of any other democratic country that does it worse.
The problem is the generalizations. The "US" doesn't do voting at all. There's no such thing as a US election. What happens is 3142 county elections take place among all the states and D.C., each with its own rules and people running their local show. That's 3142 different voting authorities reporting up through a minimum of 51 state governments plus various other places like Guam, PR, and others that hold elections, just not for federal offices.

I've noticed a lot of people seem to not understand that the US is a lot like the EU in terms of just how much autonomy each individual state has, separate from the overall governing body. The US has more cohesion than the EU, but there's still a very clear separation between states in the same way that nations within the EU are clearly separate as well.

I'm fully aware of the Byzantine and totally unnecessary set of rules that have been implemented around voting - and have the temerity to argue that it's still stupid.  Elections should be standardized and held in the same manner across the country.  The current system is an embarrassment - and results are worse than basically every other democratic country I can think of.

I actually like the lack of standardization part of the system design.

I think of it as microservices architecture pattern in system design. https://martinfowler.com/articles/microservices.html

You have a set of very loosely coupled, cooperating modules (=election process in individual counties) that eventually report using the same interface (=election results and counts).

The benefit of this type of architecture is security and maintainability. It would be maddeningly difficult for a bad actor to effective sabotage the process in a meaningful way.

It also makes things much easier to be replaced/updated.

---------------------------

As an aside, this pattern is the polar opposite of how blockchains work. Blockchain algorithms are impossible to update once they have been distributed everywhere. I once saw a jargon enthusiast on TV advocating for "blockchain based election security", and wanted to scream at the TV set.

Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: Morning Glory on January 13, 2021, 08:21:57 AM
A bit closer to being back on topic:

I work at a university and some of the people I work with will be teaching on Tuesday during the inauguration. They're worried enough about violence and unexpected outcomes that they're trying to come up with plans for what to do at what level. How bad can things get and you keep teaching class like nothing is happening? Is there a window where you acknowledge something is happening but go on with the lecture? When do you just cancel class entirely?

It's probably good planning to do anyway, better than trying to make the decision in the spur of the moment.

I was in college for 9/11. Heard about it in the radio while driving to school. They didn't cancel any classes, just carried on as normal but with an endless loop of CNN on the TVs in the common areas.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: maizefolk on January 13, 2021, 08:27:44 AM
A bit closer to being back on topic:

I work at a university and some of the people I work with will be teaching on Tuesday during the inauguration. They're worried enough about violence and unexpected outcomes that they're trying to come up with plans for what to do at what level. How bad can things get and you keep teaching class like nothing is happening? Is there a window where you acknowledge something is happening but go on with the lecture? When do you just cancel class entirely?

It's probably good planning to do anyway, better than trying to make the decision in the spur of the moment.

I was in college for 9/11. Heard about it in the radio while driving to school. They didn't cancel any classes, just carried on as normal but with an endless loop of CNN on the TVs in the common areas.

I was in high school. We had an all school assembly in the morning (I remember it was something about non-violent conflict resolution of all things) and then went back to our classrooms and heard what had happened. Class schedule went as normal the rest of the day, but with TVs tuned to news channels on in every classroom, so not a lot of instruction happened.

I guess I never really knew how much the "adult" work stopped or carried on that same day.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: ericrugiero on January 13, 2021, 08:44:37 AM
You couldn't do that the same day but I'm not sure we should allow someone to register to vote the day of the election.  It's not like the election date isn't known years ahead of time.  Publicize the last day to register and then vote two weeks later (or however long we need).  If someone isn't willing to register ahead of time (and we don't make it difficult) they aren't very motivated to vote. 

Just because an 18-year-old teen mom in Detroit, or a homeless in NYC is less motivated to vote, it does not necessarily follow that their voice is less important than that of a landed white farmer in a rural area.

Their vote is absolutely 100% as important as mine, yours or anyone else's.  I never said or meant to imply anything different.  But, I am very willing to spend an hour registering to vote to ensure a fair election and I would expect anyone who cares about democracy to do the same.

Not true at all.  In the American system, rural votes are more important than the 18 year old mom in Detroit, or the guy in NYC.  Rural votes count for more and are not equal.

That's not exactly how it works.  Votes in states with low total populations tend to be worth more.  The system doesn't discriminate based on rural vs urban. 
Votes in DC (no rural areas at all) are worth more than any state besides Wyoming.  Votes in rural Texas or California (there are lots or rural areas in Texas and California) are worth less than your mom in Detroit or guy in NYC just because of the large total number of voters in the state.  As a general rule, states with low populations do tend to be more rural but it's not really a rural vs urban thing.  Reference:  https://www.fairvote.org/population_vs_electoral_votes
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: OtherJen on January 13, 2021, 09:40:00 AM
A bit closer to being back on topic:

I work at a university and some of the people I work with will be teaching on Tuesday during the inauguration. They're worried enough about violence and unexpected outcomes that they're trying to come up with plans for what to do at what level. How bad can things get and you keep teaching class like nothing is happening? Is there a window where you acknowledge something is happening but go on with the lecture? When do you just cancel class entirely?

It's probably good planning to do anyway, better than trying to make the decision in the spur of the moment.

Given the frequency of school shootings and the general contempt (I'm understating here) for higher education in the Trump cult, it's smart to plan for this.

I worked at a university in Detroit on 9/11. We screwed up our experimental setup that morning because we were glued to the radio (no TV, internet was overloaded). I went home for the day when the skyscrapers near my building were ordered to evacuate (as per the radio station based in one of those skyscrapers).
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: MilesTeg on January 13, 2021, 10:30:35 AM
One thing that I will definitely be changing going forward is how much of a cash emergency fund I keep. I've always been in the camp of keeping a very small cash fund (on the order of a couple weeks) and saying that I would rely on credit cards to cover other emergencies because it's not like the world's gunna end and my credit cards would no longer work right?

Well, within the last month we've had a terrorist attack against telecommunications infrastructure and a terrorist attack/insurrection against the U.S. Goverment. With a bit more competence and scale its possible that those events could have caused both a major disruption in banking and a major disruption in government operation simultaneously. Not exactly the world ending but a lot closer to a major social upheaval than I had previously considered likely.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: cerat0n1a on January 13, 2021, 11:44:43 AM
In the most talked about presidential election ever, fewer than half of the US population voted. Of course, plenty of the population is too young, or too foreign, but there's still a sizeable proportion who couldn't or wouldn't vote.

In the 2019 UK general election 67.3% of registered voters voted. This was the election with Brexit on the line wasn't it? So it seems like folks should have been pretty motivated to turn out and vote.

In the 2020 US presidential election 66.7% of potentially eligible voters (including both registered voters and people who could have registered to vote and hadn't) voted. .

I certainly wouldn't hold the UK system up as an example to copy. It's comically archaic and unfit for purpose. Our first past the post system, means that in most places, there's not much point voting, as people have suggested about your vote counting for less in e.g. California. As this was the third general election in 4 years plus an extremely divisive referendum, most people were (and still are) pretty fed up of the whole thing and engagement with politics is at an all time low. Well under 10% of people watched the tv candidates' debate. No-one is going to be storming the Houses of Parliament to protest an election result here, that's for sure. The only saving grace of our system is that it was all done in a month.

The turnout figures are not like for like, in any case, as we have odd rules about who can vote in which election and you are allowed to be on the roll in multiple places (quite common for university students) but still only vote once. It's estimated that up to 4 million people could be on the roll in a particular constituency but not legally able to vote. It's not like Australia where turnout is typically well over 90%.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: dang1 on January 13, 2021, 11:49:57 AM
One thing that I will definitely be changing going forward is h
....
 upheaval than I had previously considered likely.

https://www.ready.gov/kit
After an emergency, you may need to survive on your own for several days.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: SachaFiscal on January 13, 2021, 01:13:52 PM
I'm not really changing anything except like others have mentioned I'm keeping more cash than I used to (but I started doing that after the pandemic hit). After the pandemic I may make some trips up to Canada to see what life is like there in case we need to make a move up there in the future, but not seriously considering moving there yet.

The attack on the Capitol is very serious and eye opening to how misinformation has been used to manipulate a large number of people in this country to believe falsehoods (like election fraud, virus hoax, anti-mask, etc.). Social media as a tool has been used malevolently for political influence and power. 

But for me, things aren't so bad that I would consider relocating to a different country. I live in a blue state but in a neighborhood with some trump supporters.  I saw some Trump/Pence campaign signs up as I was walking around an adjacent neighborhood a couple weeks ago before the riots.  It made me nervous that so many people still believed in the election fraud conspiracy.  But this week walking around, I saw all those signs had been taken down.

I think the tide is turning on Trump. He's been banned from so many sites online. Many major corporations are cutting off contributions to him and congress members who support him. He is losing influence in the Republican party. Also Parler has been taken offline.  These things make me think things are going in the right direction.

It's important, though, that Trump and his violent followers must be made accountable for their crimes. To deter others from committing acts of violence against the government in the future.

I really think that it's gonna be okay, guys :)  Go outside, breathe some fresh air, spend some time with the insects and animals that have no clue about all this human drama.  May you be happy and healthy!
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: Cranky on January 13, 2021, 01:25:53 PM
A bit closer to being back on topic:

I work at a university and some of the people I work with will be teaching on Tuesday during the inauguration. They're worried enough about violence and unexpected outcomes that they're trying to come up with plans for what to do at what level. How bad can things get and you keep teaching class like nothing is happening? Is there a window where you acknowledge something is happening but go on with the lecture? When do you just cancel class entirely?

It's probably good planning to do anyway, better than trying to make the decision in the spur of the moment.

I was in college for 9/11. Heard about it in the radio while driving to school. They didn't cancel any classes, just carried on as normal but with an endless loop of CNN on the TVs in the common areas.

My Dh was teaching and they actually closed the university and made everyone go home. I can’t think of any other time they’ve shut down like that.

The good news, such as it is, is that both of his classes right now are online anyway, and they’ll probably just shut the labs down.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: John Galt incarnate! on January 13, 2021, 02:16:14 PM
It's kinda embarrassing how difficult the US makes voting for it's citizens.  I can't think of any other democratic country that does it worse.
The problem is the generalizations. The "US" doesn't do voting at all. There's no such thing as a US election. What happens is 3142 county elections take place among all the states and D.C., each with its own rules and people running their local show. That's 3142 different voting authorities reporting up through a minimum of 51 state governments plus various other places like Guam, PR, and others that hold elections, just not for federal offices.

I've noticed a lot of people seem to not understand that the US is a lot like the EU in terms of just how much autonomy each individual state has, separate from the overall governing body. The US has more cohesion than the EU, but there's still a very clear separation between states in the same way that nations within the EU are clearly separate as well.

I'm fully aware of the Byzantine and totally unnecessary set of rules that have been implemented around voting - and have the temerity to argue that it's still stupid.  Elections should be standardized and held in the same manner across the country.  The current system is an embarrassment - and results are worse than basically every other democratic country I can think of.

AMENDMENT X [1791]

The powers not delegated to the United States  by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the  States respectively, or to the people.



The Framers dreaded  concentrations of power so they designed a government   consisting of a sovereign national government (federal government) and sovereign State governments.

 Under the Supremacy Clause all States must comply with federal law but under the 10th Amendment each State has  sovereignty over all other matters including the rules and administration of elections.

Each State's political subdivisions also have power to establish election procedures and how they are administrated.

My favorite explication of federalism is Justice Hugo Black's reverential embrace of it  in Younger.



Younger v. Harris (1971)

This underlying reason for restraining courts of equity from interfering with criminal prosecutions is reinforced by an even more vital consideration, the notion of "comity," that is, a proper respect for state functions, a recognition of the fact that the entire country is made up of a Union of separate state governments, and a continuance of the belief that the National Government will fare best if the States and their institutions are left free to perform their separate functions in their separate ways.


This, perhaps for lack of a better and clearer way to describe it, is referred to by many as "Our Federalism," and one familiar with the profound debates that ushered our Federal Constitution into existence is bound to respect those who remain loyal to the ideals and dreams of "Our Federalism."

The concept does not mean blind deference to "States' Rights" any more than it means centralization of control over every important issue in our National Government and its courts.

The Framers rejected both these courses.

What the concept does represent is a system in which there is sensitivity to the legitimate interests of both State and National Governments, and in which the National Government, anxious though it may be to vindicate and protect federal rights and federal interests, always endeavors to do so in ways that will not unduly interfere with the legitimate activities of the States.

It should never be forgotten that this slogan, "Our Federalism," born in the early struggling days of our Union of States, occupies a highly important place in our Nation's history and its future.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: Travis on January 13, 2021, 02:57:21 PM
It's kinda embarrassing how difficult the US makes voting for it's citizens.  I can't think of any other democratic country that does it worse.
The problem is the generalizations. The "US" doesn't do voting at all. There's no such thing as a US election. What happens is 3142 county elections take place among all the states and D.C., each with its own rules and people running their local show. That's 3142 different voting authorities reporting up through a minimum of 51 state governments plus various other places like Guam, PR, and others that hold elections, just not for federal offices.

I've noticed a lot of people seem to not understand that the US is a lot like the EU in terms of just how much autonomy each individual state has, separate from the overall governing body. The US has more cohesion than the EU, but there's still a very clear separation between states in the same way that nations within the EU are clearly separate as well.

I'm fully aware of the Byzantine and totally unnecessary set of rules that have been implemented around voting - and have the temerity to argue that it's still stupid.  Elections should be standardized and held in the same manner across the country.  The current system is an embarrassment - and results are worse than basically every other democratic country I can think of.

Byzantine may be accurate and our lack of standardization frustrating, but worth noting that despite adding even more complexity this year with COVID, every state government reported a successful election with record turnouts.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: Morning Glory on January 13, 2021, 07:39:58 PM
I just looked and I will be teaching on inauguration day, but it's clinical at a hospital so I'm in more danger from Covid than terrorists 🙂. Too bad I won't get to watch the whole thing live 😟.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: marble_faun on January 13, 2021, 11:25:44 PM
It will take more than a MAGA mob to dismantle the the US.  We've had all kinds of domestic unrest over the years, including an actual civil war, and we're still here. 

As citizens of a democracy, we need to pay attention and to be ready to challenge authoritarian dictator-type rule.  But so far, at the highest level, the process is working.  Trump was voted out of office and will leave. 

It does seem like some of the MAGA rioters were part of organized extremist or domestic terror groups (Vanilla ISIS as we call them), but they are still very fringe-y and nothing new (Timothy McVeigh, Ammon Bundy, etc.).

To me, stockpiling ammo and awaiting a cataclysm just feeds the weird energy, like all the people who hoarded toilet paper back in March.  So I'm keeping informed, but otherwise just going about daily life.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: marble_faun on January 13, 2021, 11:40:42 PM
P.S. Since we are on the MMM forum, I feel compelled to point out that there are survivalist businesses that prey on peoples' fears in order to sell stuff. 

Who are these consuma-suckers buying $$$ long guns?  An aluminum baseball bat is sufficient for most riot-defense needs. Plus you can play baseball with it! :-)
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: Travis on January 14, 2021, 12:11:45 AM

Who are these consuma-suckers buying $$$ long guns?  An aluminum baseball bat is sufficient for most riot-defense needs. Plus you can play baseball with it! :-)

How else will I express my self validation at Starbucks without a $2000 rifle and $800 worth of attachments?
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: Just Joe on January 14, 2021, 08:38:13 AM
Is it accurate to say that the USA is strong b/c the government survived the Civil War 158 years ago? That was very different time, very different knowledge levels, very different levels of technology, very different sensibilities.

I'm not sure anything before the 1950s is a good yardstick.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: OzzieandHarriet on January 14, 2021, 09:18:44 AM
Well, FWIW, the feds announced this morning that they are closing the National Mall entirely on Inauguration Day.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/national-mall-closed-inaugruation-day/2021/01/14/1ca4e540-561c-11eb-a817-e5e7f8a406d6_story.html
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: maizefolk on January 14, 2021, 09:46:42 AM
Is it accurate to say that the USA is strong b/c the government survived the Civil War 158 years ago? That was very different time, very different knowledge levels, very different levels of technology, very different sensibilities.

I'm not sure anything before the 1950s is a good yardstick.

What's interesting is many modern systems of governments in the developed world don't have histories that stretch much past the 1950s. Germany is currently operating under a government that came into being in 1949, France in 1958 and so on.

Having an older system of government is both a good and a bad thing. It is bad because people are reluctant to fiddle with something that (mostly) works and has for centuries. I don't think the present government of the USA is likely to ever repeal the electoral college. Heck we couldn't even convince enough states to pass the ERA. It is good because people are reluctant to throw away something that mostly works and has for centuries and even if they should want to, they are also less likely to think they'd succeed when countless other attempts have failed over those same centuries of history.

It's worth remembering that at the time of the US civil war, there were still plenty of people alive who could remember the adoption of the US's system of government which made it a lot easier to think about getting rid of that system and putting a new one in its place.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: OtherJen on January 14, 2021, 10:22:35 AM
Well, FWIW, the feds announced this morning that they are closing the National Mall entirely on Inauguration Day.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/national-mall-closed-inaugruation-day/2021/01/14/1ca4e540-561c-11eb-a817-e5e7f8a406d6_story.html

Cue screaming from the Radical Right about "my property/my freeedom" in 3...2...1...
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: marble_faun on January 14, 2021, 11:37:11 AM
Is it accurate to say that the USA is strong b/c the government survived the Civil War 158 years ago? That was very different time, very different knowledge levels, very different levels of technology, very different sensibilities.

I'm not sure anything before the 1950s is a good yardstick.

The Civil War helped make the central government as strong as it is now. 

But you don't have to look that far back.  In the 1960s we had tons of riots, assassinations, bombings, and major divisions between right and left, but eventually the situation normalized. 

Apart from a small minority of idealists, most Americans are not going to engage in any form of radical activity so long as they feel like their lives are stable and they have food on the table and a roof over their heads. So to me, the growing gulf between rich and poor is the most worrisome trend, beyond anything specifically to do with Trump right now (though he may be harnessing some of the anger). It's a slow-moving change, and we aren't in a situation of mass poverty and desperation yet, but if we keep going down this path, we could be heading into true revolution territory.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: RetiredAt63 on January 14, 2021, 11:47:28 AM
I'm in no way a political scientist, and this is from an admittedly small sample. I have seen a lot of reform over the past half century when there was a peaceable civil protest movement, that also had a small but violent extreme group not necessarily endorsed by the peaceable side.  Basically people in power found it was safer to accede to the reasonable requests because otherwise the radical violent group would become stronger.  Think Black Panthers in the US, FLQ in Quebec/Canada, IRA in Northern Ireland, and I am sure people can come up with many more.

Right now, the US has the collision of the BLM and related issues (brown, First Nations, etc.) and the issue of blue collar jobs disappearing and people seeing their lives being worse than their parents'.  Plus the added social issues of environmental issues including but not limited to global climate change, Big Ag, and just general pollution, and the various social changes with changes in gender roles (I am lumping all the rainbow issues, gay marriage, access to abortion, access to social support [maternity leave, welfare, job protection, minimum wage laws, labour protection laws, etc. etc.], etc.).  It is a lot to handle all at once.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: GuitarStv on January 14, 2021, 02:31:20 PM
Is it accurate to say that the USA is strong b/c the government survived the Civil War 158 years ago? That was very different time, very different knowledge levels, very different levels of technology, very different sensibilities.

I'm not sure anything before the 1950s is a good yardstick.

The Civil War helped make the central government as strong as it is now. 

But you don't have to look that far back.  In the 1960s we had tons of riots, assassinations, bombings, and major divisions between right and left, but eventually the situation normalized. 

Many of what you're describing was actually caused by the government though.  At least the CIA certainly did (and probably still are).  They did things like infiltrate pseudo-socialist group The Weathermen with their own people with the goal of making the group more radical and likely to perform terrorist attacks against citizens of the US . . . the reasoning being that this would reduce support for socialism.  And it worked great.  After the CIA radicalized the group the Weathermen started bombing stuff and lost public support.  It also helped lead to the tensions that caused the Kent State shooting.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: marble_faun on January 14, 2021, 06:25:40 PM
Is it accurate to say that the USA is strong b/c the government survived the Civil War 158 years ago? That was very different time, very different knowledge levels, very different levels of technology, very different sensibilities.

I'm not sure anything before the 1950s is a good yardstick.

The Civil War helped make the central government as strong as it is now. 

But you don't have to look that far back.  In the 1960s we had tons of riots, assassinations, bombings, and major divisions between right and left, but eventually the situation normalized. 

Many of what you're describing was actually caused by the government though.  At least the CIA certainly did (and probably still are).  They did things like infiltrate pseudo-socialist group The Weathermen with their own people with the goal of making the group more radical and likely to perform terrorist attacks against citizens of the US . . . the reasoning being that this would reduce support for socialism.  And it worked great.  After the CIA radicalized the group the Weathermen started bombing stuff and lost public support.  It also helped lead to the tensions that caused the Kent State shooting.

Oh, I know, I'm not an apologist for the US government (just a left-leaning person who happens to love America and our democratic traditions like the peaceful transfer of power).

Just pointing out that the country has been in tumult before, but the forces of stability (and social torpor even) are strong. 

I don't see any reason to cower in fear from pro-fa or make plans to leave the US.  I'm looking forward to the future.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: Milizard on January 15, 2021, 05:50:36 PM
You couldn't do that the same day but I'm not sure we should allow someone to register to vote the day of the election.  It's not like the election date isn't known years ahead of time.  Publicize the last day to register and then vote two weeks later (or however long we need).  If someone isn't willing to register ahead of time (and we don't make it difficult) they aren't very motivated to vote. 
DC has a larger  population  than Vermont  as well. (Same # of electoral  votes)
https://simple.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_population


Just because an 18-year-old teen mom in Detroit, or a homeless in NYC is less motivated to vote, it does not necessarily follow that their voice is less important than that of a landed white farmer in a rural area.

Their vote is absolutely 100% as important as mine, yours or anyone else's.  I never said or meant to imply anything different.  But, I am very willing to spend an hour registering to vote to ensure a fair election and I would expect anyone who cares about democracy to do the same.

Not true at all.  In the American system, rural votes are more important than the 18 year old mom in Detroit, or the guy in NYC.  Rural votes count for more and are not equal.

That's not exactly how it works.  Votes in states with low total populations tend to be worth more.  The system doesn't discriminate based on rural vs urban. 
Votes in DC (no rural areas at all) are worth more than any state besides Wyoming.  Votes in rural Texas or California (there are lots or rural areas in Texas and California) are worth less than your mom in Detroit or guy in NYC just because of the large total number of voters in the state.  As a general rule, states with low populations do tend to be more rural but it's not really a rural vs urban thing.  Reference:  https://www.fairvote.org/population_vs_electoral_votes
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: Milizard on January 15, 2021, 06:02:10 PM
As to the question,  I'm not doing much differently.  Wondering if the market will finally take a hit, but thats neither here nor there.   I unfriended most Trumpers on Facebook after the act of  war happened on the 6th. I was passed, and did not think I could continue to remain civil if I encountered any more of their bullshit on Facebook.  Its been a lot--much of my DH's family.  Thats it. I could not continue biting my tongue like I had been for years. I blame them for contributing to the echo chamber. I blame them for their "Christian " hypocrisy. I did not cut them out of my life completely, just out of my social media.

  Its the cult of lies that frightens and angers me, and reminds me of Hitler's rise in power. The basket of deplorables will always be there. The echo chamber emboldens those deplorables, adding the delusional into their numbers.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: Freedom2016 on January 15, 2021, 06:05:41 PM
As to the question,  I'm not doing much differently.  Wondering if the market will finally take a hit, but thats neither here nor there.   I unfriended most Trumpers on Facebook after the act of  war happened on the 6th. I was passed, and did not think I could continue to remain civil if I encountered any more of their bullshit on Facebook.  Its been a lot--much of my DH's family.  Thats it. I could not continue biting my tongue like I had been for years. I blame them for contributing to the echo chamber. I blame them for their "Christian " hypocrisy. I did not cut them out of my life completely, just out of my social media.

  Its the cult of lies that frightens and angers me, and reminds me of Hitler's rise in power. The basket of deplorables will always be there. The echo chamber emboldens those deplorables, adding the delusional into their numbers.

It sucks so bad that Hillary Clinton was right this entire time, and she was punished for pointing it out. Reminds me of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAhF8tPqafQ


Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: John Galt incarnate! on January 15, 2021, 06:26:13 PM
Is it accurate to say that the USA is strong b/c the government survived the Civil War 158 years ago?

Without question, yes it is accurate to say so.

The bestial carnage of the Civil War resulted in the   reification of the organizing principle  that the United States of America is an indivisible union of States though each has reserved, sovereign powers under the Tenth Amendment.



Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: maizefolk on January 15, 2021, 06:26:42 PM
Was supposed to have some people come out to the house on Monday to do some work. Just got a phone call that the company involved is cancelling and rescheduling all appointments all next week out of concern for the safety of their employees. I sure hope that simply reflects an overabundance of caution/allergy to potential liability on the part of large publicly traded companies. We'll know soon enough. Ugh.

For those of you who think Clinton was right all along, please do remember she put only one half of Trump supporters in her metaphorical basket of deplorables while in the same speech she said that the other half of the people supporting Trump "... are people who feel that the government has let them down, the economy has let them down, nobody cares about them, nobody worries about what happens to their lives and their futures, and they’re just desperate for change. It doesn’t really even matter where it comes from. They don’t buy everything he says, but he seems to hold out some hope that their lives will be different. They won’t wake up and see their jobs disappear, lose a kid to heroine, feel like they’re in a dead-end. Those are people we have to understand and empathize with as well."
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: Milizard on January 15, 2021, 06:45:07 PM
As to the question,  I'm not doing much differently.  Wondering if the market will finally take a hit, but thats neither here nor there.   I unfriended most Trumpers on Facebook after the act of  war happened on the 6th. I was passed, and did not think I could continue to remain civil if I encountered any more of their bullshit on Facebook.  Its been a lot--much of my DH's family.  Thats it. I could not continue biting my tongue like I had been for years. I blame them for contributing to the echo chamber. I blame them for their "Christian " hypocrisy. I did not cut them out of my life completely, just out of my social media.

  Its the cult of lies that frightens and angers me, and reminds me of Hitler's rise in power. The basket of deplorables will always be there. The echo chamber emboldens those deplorables, adding the delusional into their numbers.

It sucks so bad that Hillary Clinton was right this entire time, and she was punished for pointing it out. Reminds me of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAhF8tPqafQ
Politicians are punished for telling too much truth. That comment likely cost her the election.  Obamas  "cling to their guns and religion" cost democrats a lot of support as well.

I was saying this on another message board recently: Democrats really have to work on their marketing of ideas.  They are mostly terrible at it.  I didn't used to get the draw of the whole "Hope and Change" motto, either, but I get it now.  Short, simple feel-good ideas.  Those other things aren't.  They make people feel bad about themselves, and those people will reject in turn.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: Bloop Bloop Reloaded on January 15, 2021, 10:06:28 PM
Kinda weird that liberals can't call hardcore conservatives "Deplorables" but conservatives can get away with calling liberals ivory tower elites, pussies, and even worse words.

Says something I think about the mentality of a lot of social conservatives. A very "us against the world" view which is a little sad.

Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: markbike528CBX on January 15, 2021, 11:27:23 PM
While I disagree with the premise of the thread  "America on the precipice: "
I will answer "What are you doing?"

I wrote my congressman, a Republican, via mail and Facebook.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: Trifle on January 16, 2021, 03:11:54 AM
While I disagree with the premise of the thread  "America on the precipice: "
I will answer "What are you doing?"

I wrote my congressman, a Republican, via mail and Facebook.

Same here.  And he wrote back, denouncing the riot but doubling down on the "steal" lie.  OK, dude -- if that's the strategy you're pursuing here -- sticking with the ProFa far right -- I'm not just voting against you in two years, I'm going to make it my damned mission to see you're not reelected and we flip this district.   
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: former player on January 16, 2021, 04:06:24 AM
While I disagree with the premise of the thread  "America on the precipice: "
I will answer "What are you doing?"

I wrote my congressman, a Republican, via mail and Facebook.

Same here.  And he wrote back, denouncing the riot but doubling down on the "steal" lie.  OK, dude -- if that's the strategy you're pursuing here -- sticking with the ProFa far right -- I'm not just voting against you in two years, I'm going to make it my damned mission to see you're not reelected and we flip this district.
Did you write back asking him to state on what facts he believes this racist Big Lie?  Or is it just prejudice on his part?
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: Trifle on January 16, 2021, 04:21:55 AM
While I disagree with the premise of the thread  "America on the precipice: "
I will answer "What are you doing?"

I wrote my congressman, a Republican, via mail and Facebook.

Same here.  And he wrote back, denouncing the riot but doubling down on the "steal" lie.  OK, dude -- if that's the strategy you're pursuing here -- sticking with the ProFa far right -- I'm not just voting against you in two years, I'm going to make it my damned mission to see you're not reelected and we flip this district.
Did you write back asking him to state on what facts he believes this racist Big Lie?  Or is it just prejudice on his part?

Not yet but I will!  His office hasn't heard the last of me.  I don't have much hope of my letters doing any good -- he was one of the speakers at the rally before the riot [shudder] -- but at the very least I want him to be hearing from reasonable people who are calling him out.  And then I will organize/do what I can to make sure he is OUT in two years. 

ETA:  There are some current calls and petitions for him to resign, but I don't think that's going to happen
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: ctuser1 on January 16, 2021, 04:40:44 AM
Kinda weird that liberals can't call hardcore conservatives "Deplorables" but conservatives can get away with calling liberals ivory tower elites, pussies, and even worse words.

Says something I think about the mentality of a lot of social conservatives. A very "us against the world" view which is a little sad.

It is an economic class issue.

Calling out the poorer "working class" based on some generic markers is seen to be in bad taste. Nobody bats an eyelid calling the white collar class (="coastal liberals") names.

To me it just seems like the common human dislike of kicking someone when he/she is down.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: former player on January 16, 2021, 05:27:58 AM
Kinda weird that liberals can't call hardcore conservatives "Deplorables" but conservatives can get away with calling liberals ivory tower elites, pussies, and even worse words.

Says something I think about the mentality of a lot of social conservatives. A very "us against the world" view which is a little sad.

It is an economic class issue.

Calling out the poorer "working class" based on some generic markers is seen to be in bad taste. Nobody bats an eyelid calling the white collar class (="coastal liberals") names.

To me it just seems like the common human dislike of kicking someone when he/she is down.
I just wish that dislike were more common that it seems to be.  Or that people refrained from acting because of that dislike.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: Just Joe on January 16, 2021, 10:04:48 AM
Kinda weird that liberals can't call hardcore conservatives "Deplorables" but conservatives can get away with calling liberals ivory tower elites, pussies, and even worse words.

Says something I think about the mentality of a lot of social conservatives. A very "us against the world" view which is a little sad.

And libtards... I really hate that one. 
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: Kris on January 16, 2021, 10:10:12 AM
Kinda weird that liberals can't call hardcore conservatives "Deplorables" but conservatives can get away with calling liberals ivory tower elites, pussies, and even worse words.

Says something I think about the mentality of a lot of social conservatives. A very "us against the world" view which is a little sad.

And libtards... I really hate that one.

Demonrats is the one that gets me. It's just so... laughable.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: ctuser1 on January 16, 2021, 10:35:56 AM
Name calling is only as effective as you let it be.

If you let it affect you what others think of you, then that is a weakness that will be exploited in any competitive field in life.

Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: former player on January 16, 2021, 10:40:40 AM
Name calling is only as effective as you let it be.

If you let it affect you what others think of you, then that is a weakness that will be exploited in any competitive field in life.
I don't think the problem is that we "left-wingers" think of ourselves as "demon rats", it's that the Trumpists think of us as "demon rats" - and they are not going to be able to talk or compromise with people they think of as "demon rats".  That's the problem, not our hurt feelings.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: markbike528CBX on January 16, 2021, 10:44:20 AM
While I disagree with the premise of the thread  "America on the precipice: "
I will answer "What are you doing?"

I wrote my congressman, a Republican, via mail and Facebook.

Same here.  And he wrote back, denouncing the riot but doubling down on the "steal" lie.  OK, dude -- if that's the strategy you're pursuing here -- sticking with the ProFa far right -- I'm not just voting against you in two years, I'm going to make it my damned mission to see you're not reelected and we flip this district.
Did you write back asking him to state on what facts he believes this racist Big Lie?  Or is it just prejudice on his part?

Not yet but I will!  His office hasn't heard the last of me.  I don't have much hope of my letters doing any good -- he was one of the speakers at the rally before the riot [shudder] -- but at the very least I want him to be hearing from reasonable people who are calling him out.  And then I will organize/do what I can to make sure he is OUT in two years. 

ETA:  There are some current calls and petitions for him to resign, but I don't think that's going to happen

My Republican Congressman was one of the ten who voted for impeachment. His second letter back to me specified some timeline on Trumps anti-Pence tweets and the mobs shouting "Hang Pence" shortly thereafter. 

Edit to add, yes, he is getting a lot of  "your career is over" hate on his Facebook page.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: John Galt incarnate! on January 16, 2021, 10:56:28 AM
Kinda weird that liberals can't call hardcore conservatives "Deplorables" but conservatives can get away with calling liberals ivory tower elites, pussies, and even worse words.

Says something I think about the mentality of a lot of social conservatives. A very "us against the world" view which is a little sad.

And libtards... I really hate that one.

Demonrats is the one that gets me. It's just so... laughable.

The bellicose shouters such as Levin, Limbaugh, et al. say "Democrat Party."

How  many people know that this use of "Democrat" is a pejorative?
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: John Galt incarnate! on January 16, 2021, 11:03:02 AM
As to the question,  I'm not doing much differently.  Wondering if the market will finally take a hit, but thats neither here nor there.   I unfriended most Trumpers on Facebook after the act of  war happened on the 6th. I was passed, and did not think I could continue to remain civil if I encountered any more of their bullshit on Facebook.  Its been a lot--much of my DH's family.  Thats it. I could not continue biting my tongue like I had been for years. I blame them for contributing to the echo chamber. I blame them for their "Christian " hypocrisy. I did not cut them out of my life completely, just out of my social media.

  Its the cult of lies that frightens and angers me, and reminds me of Hitler's rise in power. The basket of deplorables will always be there. The echo chamber emboldens those deplorables, adding the delusional into their numbers.

It sucks so bad that Hillary Clinton was right this entire time, and she was punished for pointing it out. Reminds me of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAhF8tPqafQ
Politicians are punished for telling too much truth.

"In Washington, telling the truth is a gaffe."


That comment likely cost her the election.  Obamas  "cling to their guns and religion" cost democrats a lot of support as well.

I was saying this on another message board recently: Democrats really have to work on their marketing of ideas.  They are mostly terrible at it.  I didn't used to get the draw of the whole "Hope and Change" motto, either, but I get it now.  Short, simple feel-good ideas.  Those other things aren't.  They make people feel bad about themselves, and those people will reject in turn.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: Just Joe on January 16, 2021, 12:00:22 PM
Name calling is only as effective as you let it be.

If you let it affect you what others think of you, then that is a weakness that will be exploited in any competitive field in life.
I don't think the problem is that we "left-wingers" think of ourselves as "demon rats", it's that the Trumpists think of us as "demon rats" - and they are not going to be able to talk or compromise with people they think of as "demon rats".  That's the problem, not our hurt feelings.

Its the lack of respect going back and forth between the two groups. The left (as I know it) wants to discuss and plan and the right (as I know it) wants to call names and repeat rumors...
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: dang1 on January 16, 2021, 12:58:07 PM
The U.S. Capitol Riot Was Years in the Making. Here's Why America Is So Divided

https://time.com/5929978/the-u-s-capitol-riot-was-years-in-the-making-heres-why-america-is-so-divided/

white Americans—many of them white rural—are seeing their status in society threatened as a result of demographics and the recent racial reckoning

rise of inequality of opportunity as well. And this latter form is more devastating—when people feel that they never even got a shot to compete, let alone to succeed, they get angry.

media ways of communicating that over time fragmented into more and more niche offerings until consumers could “enjoy” only those viewpoints that reinforced their own
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: Bloop Bloop Reloaded on January 16, 2021, 06:21:54 PM
I have very little sympathy for the white (overwhelmingly male) Americans who benefited from America's cultural and military imperialism (and slavery, obviously) for two centuries and are now revolting because those "blacks" and "women" now have equal rights and they can't ride roughshod over them any more. Or heaven forfend all those coloured people can migrate to the US now and get good jobs as doctors and pharmacists and consign the dumb majority to more menial work. Welcome to not having unjustified privilege. Population: You.

You're not guaranteed any status in society - not any more. Now you know how all them minorities have felt for centuries.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: Morning Glory on January 16, 2021, 06:28:26 PM
"'I’m facing a prison sentence': US Capitol rioters plead with Trump for pardons | US Capitol breach | The Guardian" https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/16/us-capitol-rioters-donald-trump-pardons

Then you have this woman who insists that she deserves a pardon. What did she think would happen?
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: OtherJen on January 16, 2021, 06:35:02 PM
I have very little sympathy for the white (overwhelmingly male) Americans who benefited from America's cultural and military imperialism (and slavery, obviously) for two centuries and are now revolting because those "blacks" and "women" now have equal rights and they can't ride roughshod over them any more. Or heaven forfend all those coloured people can migrate to the US now and get good jobs as doctors and pharmacists and consign the dumb majority to more menial work. Welcome to not having unjustified privilege. Population: You.

You're not guaranteed any status in society - not any more. Now you know how all them minorities have felt for centuries.

Preach. Neither of my Mexican immigrant grandparents had a formal education, and they picked crops to make ends meet. Neither of my white grandparents finished high school, and one of them was an immigrant. Both of my parents barely finished high school. I worked my ass off to do very well in high school, undergrad, and grad school to become the first doctor (PhD) in my family. And yet the assumption was often that I got in solely because of my minority status and took a place from a (supposedly deserving) white kid. Fuck that. They could have worked as hard as I did and then they would have been viable competition.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: RetiredAt63 on January 17, 2021, 08:05:40 AM
I have very little sympathy for the white (overwhelmingly male) Americans who benefited from America's cultural and military imperialism (and slavery, obviously) for two centuries and are now revolting because those "blacks" and "women" now have equal rights and they can't ride roughshod over them any more. Or heaven forfend all those coloured people can migrate to the US now and get good jobs as doctors and pharmacists and consign the dumb majority to more menial work. Welcome to not having unjustified privilege. Population: You.

You're not guaranteed any status in society - not any more. Now you know how all them minorities have felt for centuries.

Preach. Neither of my Mexican immigrant grandparents had a formal education, and they picked crops to make ends meet. Neither of my white grandparents finished high school, and one of them was an immigrant. Both of my parents barely finished high school. I worked my ass off to do very well in high school, undergrad, and grad school to become the first doctor (PhD) in my family. And yet the assumption was often that I got in solely because of my minority status and took a place from a (supposedly deserving) white kid. Fuck that. They could have worked as hard as I did and then they would have been viable competition.

Like the Ecole Polytechnique shooter who thought female engineering students were taking places guys should have had.  Last I looked young women were the vast majority of students at Quebec's veterinary school.  Because they are doing the work once they were allowed in at all.  Gender, colour, the young white men used to have easy access to the good degrees and now they don't.  The competent hard-working ones will do fine, but the slackers can't slide by any more.

I find reading older literature can be interesting for changes in social norms.  Gaudy Night is so eye-opening.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: maizefolk on January 17, 2021, 08:28:51 AM
...The competent hard-working ones will do fine, but the slackers can't slide by any more....

Do you really think so? There are all sorts of reasons we could have different frames of reference: from living in different countries to having different ideas of what it means to be doing fine (or what it means to be competent for that matter). But I think back the the folks I went to high school with, and many, not all of them but many, where intelligent and motivated and hard working. ...and yet.... The better part of two decades later many of those same people have been struggling and are still struggling.

At least in my observation, at least for my part of one country and at least for my definitions of competent and hard working and "doing fine", being competent and hard working isn't enough anymore. At least in my part of this one country I see a move more and more towards a winner take all society where  the absolute smartest* and hardest working** do increasingly well while the vast majority of people who are still competent and still willing to work hard are less and less likely to be able to earn some security and stability of their own. I know it can be easier and more comfortable to blame any struggles on personal failures and that people should just work harder to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Yet that is simply not what I see around me, nor what I see from the trajectories of my high school cohort.

*Where smartest means having both the gift of native intelligence and the advantage of a childhood and young adulthood where one can work on refining and credentialing their talents instead of needed to focus simply on earning enough money to just get by.

**Where hardest working means not only motivation and drive, but also a life that allows then to focus on work during the workweek, log long hours at work, and ideally have a spouse who puts their own career ambitions aside to help propel them forward, or no spouse/no children.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: OtherJen on January 17, 2021, 09:51:18 AM
...The competent hard-working ones will do fine, but the slackers can't slide by any more....

Do you really think so? There are all sorts of reasons we could have different frames of reference: from living in different countries to having different ideas of what it means to be doing fine (or what it means to be competent for that matter). But I think back the the folks I went to high school with, and many, not all of them but many, where intelligent and motivated and hard working. ...and yet.... The better part of two decades later many of those same people have been struggling and are still struggling.

At least in my observation, at least for my part of one country and at least for my definitions of competent and hard working and "doing fine", being competent and hard working isn't enough anymore. At least in my part of this one country I see a move more and more towards a winner take all society where  the absolute smartest* and hardest working** do increasingly well while the vast majority of people who are still competent and still willing to work hard are less and less likely to be able to earn some security and stability of their own. I know it can be easier and more comfortable to blame any struggles on personal failures and that people should just work harder to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Yet that is simply not what I see around me, nor what I see from the trajectories of my high school cohort.

*Where smartest means having both the gift of native intelligence and the advantage of a childhood and young adulthood where one can work on refining and credentialing their talents instead of needed to focus simply on earning enough money to just get by.

**Where hardest working means not only motivation and drive, but also a life that allows then to focus on work during the workweek, log long hours at work, and ideally have a spouse who puts their own career ambitions aside to help propel them forward, or no spouse/no children.

What's the answer, then? Because going backwards to a period when someone like me (who has the brains, ability, and tenacity) would have been shut out of opportunities offered to white men simply because I am female and of minority ethnicity isn't the answer, either.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: maizefolk on January 17, 2021, 10:04:21 AM
What's the answer, then? Because going backwards to a period when someone like me (who has the brains, ability, and tenacity) would have been shut out of opportunities offered to white men simply because I am female and of minority ethnicity isn't the answer, either.

I completely agree with you on that. On two different levels.

-First, what happened in the past was unjust.
-Second, even if someone didn't care about treating each other justly, the fact more people have opportunities today is not the main reason it's harder to get ahead.

If you go the auto factories you don't see a lot of women and people of color who have jobs that used to go to white men, you see a lot of robots and automation. If you goal into the coal mines you don't see a lot of women and people of color that have jobs that used to go to white men, you see some robots and automation but also fewer mines because we're shifting to a power grid that is less dependent on coal.

The leaders on the right like to blame the pool of "secure" jobs shrinking on immigration or opportunities for people who wouldn't have had them in the past. That's not a true answer. But denying that there is a problem, pretending that everything is going well and the only problem is many people aren't willing to work hard enough or aren't competent isn't a true answer either.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: RetiredAt63 on January 17, 2021, 10:17:34 AM
...The competent hard-working ones will do fine, but the slackers can't slide by any more....

Do you really think so? There are all sorts of reasons we could have different frames of reference: from living in different countries to having different ideas of what it means to be doing fine (or what it means to be competent for that matter). But I think back the the folks I went to high school with, and many, not all of them but many, where intelligent and motivated and hard working. ...and yet.... The better part of two decades later many of those same people have been struggling and are still struggling.

At least in my observation, at least for my part of one country and at least for my definitions of competent and hard working and "doing fine", being competent and hard working isn't enough anymore. At least in my part of this one country I see a move more and more towards a winner take all society where  the absolute smartest* and hardest working** do increasingly well while the vast majority of people who are still competent and still willing to work hard are less and less likely to be able to earn some security and stability of their own. I know it can be easier and more comfortable to blame any struggles on personal failures and that people should just work harder to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Yet that is simply not what I see around me, nor what I see from the trajectories of my high school cohort.

*Where smartest means having both the gift of native intelligence and the advantage of a childhood and young adulthood where one can work on refining and credentialing their talents instead of needed to focus simply on earning enough money to just get by.

**Where hardest working means not only motivation and drive, but also a life that allows then to focus on work during the workweek, log long hours at work, and ideally have a spouse who puts their own career ambitions aside to help propel them forward, or no spouse/no children.

I was referring to doing fine in terms of being able to compete on a level playing field.*  Of course there are so many other factors, that everyone may be doing badly.  But who will be doing least badly?

*and even our metaphors are from sports that used to be all male.  Gah.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: maizefolk on January 17, 2021, 10:23:47 AM
Now you posted up thread about grad school and research which is a field I know both of us have firsthand experience with. And I've seen the same comments you describe "so-and-so is only here because she's a woman, he's only here because he's black" and so on over and over. When people are competing over scarce resources, or even thinking about needing to compete for scarce resources, all these markers of racism and sexism go through the roof. And life in academia is a constant competition over scarce resources. But honestly, even there, I don't believe the fact that woman and people of color have a better shot than they would in the past is a primary driver of that resource scarcity.

We're operating in an academic system that worked really well when the college age population of the USA was growing rapidly and at the same time the proportion of college age students who end to college was growing. Those conditions held for decades, but now they don't. So we admit lots of PhD students who must fight over too few funding opportunities. And the ones who make it through then fight for too few faculty positions. And the ones who manage to get hired for a faculty position turn around and fight for funding so they can keep paying their grad students and that grad students can make rent. That's a situation that breeds a resource scarcity mindset which, in turn, in all too many people, produces racism and sexism about women and people of color having opportunities. But giving more people more opportunities isn't what caused the competition for scarce resources in the first place.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: Kris on January 17, 2021, 10:24:33 AM
Was supposed to have some people come out to the house on Monday to do some work. Just got a phone call that the company involved is cancelling and rescheduling all appointments all next week out of concern for the safety of their employees. I sure hope that simply reflects an overabundance of caution/allergy to potential liability on the part of large publicly traded companies. We'll know soon enough. Ugh.

For those of you who think Clinton was right all along, please do remember she put only one half of Trump supporters in her metaphorical basket of deplorables while in the same speech she said that the other half of the people supporting Trump "... are people who feel that the government has let them down, the economy has let them down, nobody cares about them, nobody worries about what happens to their lives and their futures, and they’re just desperate for change. It doesn’t really even matter where it comes from. They don’t buy everything he says, but he seems to hold out some hope that their lives will be different. They won’t wake up and see their jobs disappear, lose a kid to heroine, feel like they’re in a dead-end. Those are people we have to understand and empathize with as well."

We know, and we do remember. It was Trump and his surrogates who worked so hard to make conservatives forget that part.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: maizefolk on January 17, 2021, 10:34:56 AM
I was referring to doing fine in terms of being able to compete on a level playing field.*  Of course there are so many other factors, that everyone may be doing badly.  But who will be doing least badly?

*and even our metaphors are from sports that used to be all male.  Gah.

Fair enough. I'd say that falls into the bucket of having different definitions of "doing fine." Suspected it might be something like that.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: Morning Glory on January 17, 2021, 10:41:59 AM
Now you posted up thread about grad school and research which is a field I know both of us have firsthand experience with. And I've seen the same comments you describe "so-and-so is only here because she's a woman, he's only here because he's black" and so on over and over. When people are competing over scarce resources, or even thinking about needing to compete for scarce resources, all these markers of racism and sexism go through the roof. And life in academia is a constant competition over scarce resources. But honestly, even there, I don't believe the fact that woman and people of color have a better shot than they would in the past is a primary driver of that resource scarcity.

We're operating in an academic system that worked really well when the college age population of the USA was growing rapidly and at the same time the proportion of college age students who end to college was growing. Those conditions held for decades, but now they don't. So we admit lots of PhD students who must fight over too few funding opportunities. And the ones who make it through then fight for too few faculty positions. And the ones who manage to get hired for a faculty position turn around and fight for funding so they can keep paying their grad students and that grad students can make rent. That's a situation that breeds a resource scarcity mindset which, in turn, in all too many people, produces racism and sexism about women and people of color having opportunities. But giving more people more opportunities isn't what caused the competition for scarce resources in the first place.

More funding for education and research is what can actually make America great!!!! Maybe we can throw in single payer healthcare and housing-first social policies and more public transportation and libraries too. Tax the rich and quit wasting money on walls and private prisons.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: dang1 on January 17, 2021, 10:44:30 AM
Economic mobility differs geographically
https://www.huduser.gov/portal/pdredge/pdr_edge_featd_article_071414.html

"do not just “move up” but also generally “move out.” "
so move https://inequality.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/SOTU_2015_economic-mobility.pdf


Again:
"a huge swath of people in the U.S. have been left behind is because our politics written by race, written by regionalism long before Trump, has made us have the weakest welfare state and the weakest worker protections in the world for a rich country. And so, go across the border of Canada, go across the Atlantic to any Western European country, go the other direction to Australia or Singapore or Japan and workers have not been left behind as much."
https://ritholtz.com/2020/11/transcript-adam-posen/


It would help to vote for politicians that promote pro-worker policies
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: maizefolk on January 17, 2021, 10:57:46 AM
More funding for education and research is what can actually make America great!!!! Maybe we can throw in single payer healthcare and housing-first social policies and more public transportation and libraries too. Tax the rich and quit wasting money on walls and private prisons.

I completely agree we need more funding for education and research. But that along won't solve the resource scarcity problem in academia long term. The number of college students in the USA peaked in 2010 and has been on a gentle downward drift since. There is only so many professors we need to teach those students. Now if we could come up with a new approach to public sector R&D which produced many more "grown up" jobs that involved working in research but didn't necessarily depend on recruiting and training new graduate students, we'd have a better shot at both addressing the resource scarcity mindset in academia AND we'd probably get more research done per dollar. The current system has most of the hands on research done by people who are explicitly still learning how to do it, and if they are really REALLY good at it (and lucky) we promote them to the job of supervising new trainees while running around trying to teach classes and write grants to secure funding so much they don't use a lot of the skills they got so good at turning graduate school.

Fixing housing, absolutely. That one is much simpler. Tackle local zoning to encourage densification, particularly around public transit. You get a double win with the public transit making it possible to live without a car (allowing further densification because houses/apartment complexes don't need garages) AND having high density housing around each train/subway stop makes the economics of running and even expanding public transit networks a lot more practical. I'm completely on your side on this.

I just think it's a lot easier to line up the political support we need to make changes like these happen if we don't buy into the right wing narrative that the reason non-college educated white people are doing worse in this country is because black and brown people are doing better and those same worse off white people are slackers who aren't willing to work hard.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: Morning Glory on January 17, 2021, 11:36:08 AM


I just think it's a lot easier to line up the political support we need to make changes like these happen if we don't buy into the right wing narrative that the reason non-college educated white people are doing worse in this country is because black and brown people are doing better and those same worse off white people are slackers who aren't willing to work hard.

I'm totally with you on this one. I think the reason so many believe this narrative is that the republicans and rich white dudes have a much better marketing team and better stealth funding.   The Koch brothers et al. had a huge incentive to get people to believe that immigrants were the reason why their quality of life had diminished, not wealth inequality.  I had high hopes for Occupy Wall Street but it fizzled out.  Citizens United needs to go. So does the electoral college.

 I like the idea of more funding for basic sciences: It can create good jobs for educated people, do something good for society, and make the world respect the United States again.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: SunnyDays on January 17, 2021, 11:57:46 AM
Economic mobility differs geographically
https://www.huduser.gov/portal/pdredge/pdr_edge_featd_article_071414.html

"do not just “move up” but also generally “move out.” "
so move https://inequality.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/SOTU_2015_economic-mobility.pdf


Again:
"a huge swath of people in the U.S. have been left behind is because our politics written by race, written by regionalism long before Trump, has made us have the weakest welfare state and the weakest worker protections in the world for a rich country. And so, go across the border of Canada, go across the Atlantic to any Western European country, go the other direction to Australia or Singapore or Japan and workers have not been left behind as much."
https://ritholtz.com/2020/11/transcript-adam-posen/


It would help to vote for politicians that promote pro-worker policies

As a Canadian, I am repeatedly amazed and disappointed that Americans tend to see "socialism" as a bad thing.  It is not a synonym for "Communism," but helps create a leveler playing field for all people.  When your basic needs are guaranteed (at least more so that in the US), you can focus on making the most of your potential, whatever that may be, which in turn benefits the rest of society.  Everybody wins.  I don't understand how that is so difficult to see, except that there has been generations of brainwashing leading to reflexive fear and rejection of the concept.  Unfortunately, often by those who would benefit the most by it.  But maybe that's the goal of the brainwashing - keep the perks in the hands of a relative few and let the rest suffer.  Which is so short-sighted.  That's exactly the cause of social revolutions, and I fear that one is brewing in the USofA.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: maizefolk on January 17, 2021, 12:03:47 PM
I had high hopes for Occupy Wall Street as well. I was still in grad school at the time. Went to the first day of the local one on campus. What struck me at the time was that four out of every five people I ran into that day and night were people who weren't particularly politically engaged but just had this sense that what was happening in the country was wrong and we needed to go down a different track. The fifth out of five fit much more into the conventional "activist" mold and had a long list of specific issues and grievances some of which appeared linked to the Occupy movement and many others which were the regular grab bag of things that might have been protested on a college campus in any given year.

One of the many things that made "we are the 99%" a great rallying cry was that it simply was simply incompatible with movement being coopted into pitting the protestors against the people who had voted for or against any particular group of politicians. It kept the protests focused on the politicians who were making the decisions themselves and the wealthy interests that financed those same politician's campaigns and seemed to have much more influence over their decision making than the people who voted for them. I suspect that's why the Occupy protests also seem to have created the highest ratio of police violence directed at the protestors to violence acts committed by protestors of any I can remember (that's purely a personal impression, I don't have any stats to back it up).

Protests focused on the people making decisions are much scarier for those in power than protests that pit one large fraction of the country against another.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: lukebuz on January 17, 2021, 03:48:34 PM
I live in one of those funny states where almost everyone in state government is a Republican... except for the governor. I'm not concerned about that kind of violence here. Drug and domestic violence is far more common.

While we have plenty of people out there with revolutionary hero fantasies, they're also quite lazy. It's easier to complain on Facebook than to take up arms.

What city in KY do you live in?   :P
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: ericrugiero on January 18, 2021, 02:18:03 PM
Economic mobility differs geographically
https://www.huduser.gov/portal/pdredge/pdr_edge_featd_article_071414.html

"do not just “move up” but also generally “move out.” "
so move https://inequality.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/SOTU_2015_economic-mobility.pdf


Again:
"a huge swath of people in the U.S. have been left behind is because our politics written by race, written by regionalism long before Trump, has made us have the weakest welfare state and the weakest worker protections in the world for a rich country. And so, go across the border of Canada, go across the Atlantic to any Western European country, go the other direction to Australia or Singapore or Japan and workers have not been left behind as much."
https://ritholtz.com/2020/11/transcript-adam-posen/


It would help to vote for politicians that promote pro-worker policies

As a Canadian, I am repeatedly amazed and disappointed that Americans tend to see "socialism" as a bad thing.  It is not a synonym for "Communism," but helps create a leveler playing field for all people.  When your basic needs are guaranteed (at least more so that in the US), you can focus on making the most of your potential, whatever that may be, which in turn benefits the rest of society.  Everybody wins.  I don't understand how that is so difficult to see, except that there has been generations of brainwashing leading to reflexive fear and rejection of the concept.  Unfortunately, often by those who would benefit the most by it.  But maybe that's the goal of the brainwashing - keep the perks in the hands of a relative few and let the rest suffer.  Which is so short-sighted.  That's exactly the cause of social revolutions, and I fear that one is brewing in the USofA.

I'm one of the Americans who sees "socialism" as bad thing overall.  The USA became a great and successful country because of the opportunity for individuals to start with nothing and work their way up to become a success.  Both immigrants and native born Americans have been successful for hundreds of years through their hard work and perseverance.  This has led to a country which has been widely acknowledged as the economic leader of the world.  It's also the easiest place in the world to FIRE. 

See the definition of socialism below:

Definition of socialism from Meriam Webster:
1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property
2b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3 : a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

My problem with socialism is that when the government owns and controls the property, goods and wealth there is a much less direct tie between how good a job someone does or how hard they work and how well they are paid (or rewarded).  This results in much less incentive for individuals to work hard and be successful.  The more each person can see a path to be rewarded for doing constructive things the more a society will flourish. 

Now, I'm not such a hard core capitalist that I don't think we should have some government intervention that could be considered socialism. 
-  Social security is needed in our country because so many people don't save adequately for retirement.  But, most of us won't get nearly what we should from it because the government has mis-managed and raided the funds. 
-  Welfare is needed in our country.  Some people have major challenges and need support. (challenges like poor health, mental illness, extreme lack or privilege, etc)  However, we should set it up so it's designed to be a short term solution as much as possible.  Right now, people are penalized for working and rewarded for having kids who are raised to stay on welfare. 
-  I don't pretend to have the answer for healthcare.  Simplified billing and transparency of costs prior to care would help.  We may still need government intervention.  Our system is clearly broken.  Government run healthcare doesn't seem to be all sunshine and roses either. 

Basically, I want to keep a system where an individual can work hard, "pull themselves up by their bootstraps" and be successful.  Capitalism has a better track record of that than socialism.  I recognize that not everyone has the same starting point and we need to help the underprivileged.  We just need to be sure we keep a system that rewards hard work, innovation and creativity while we help them. 

edit:  I recognize that socialism at it's roots has good intentions.  We all want (or should want) everyone to have shelter, food, medicine, clothing, etc.  The difference comes in what we think is the most effective way to accomplish this.  Socialism taken too far can bring the standard of living of everyone down in an effort to be "fair". 
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: GuitarStv on January 18, 2021, 02:40:04 PM
Economic mobility differs geographically
https://www.huduser.gov/portal/pdredge/pdr_edge_featd_article_071414.html

"do not just “move up” but also generally “move out.” "
so move https://inequality.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/SOTU_2015_economic-mobility.pdf


Again:
"a huge swath of people in the U.S. have been left behind is because our politics written by race, written by regionalism long before Trump, has made us have the weakest welfare state and the weakest worker protections in the world for a rich country. And so, go across the border of Canada, go across the Atlantic to any Western European country, go the other direction to Australia or Singapore or Japan and workers have not been left behind as much."
https://ritholtz.com/2020/11/transcript-adam-posen/


It would help to vote for politicians that promote pro-worker policies

As a Canadian, I am repeatedly amazed and disappointed that Americans tend to see "socialism" as a bad thing.  It is not a synonym for "Communism," but helps create a leveler playing field for all people.  When your basic needs are guaranteed (at least more so that in the US), you can focus on making the most of your potential, whatever that may be, which in turn benefits the rest of society.  Everybody wins.  I don't understand how that is so difficult to see, except that there has been generations of brainwashing leading to reflexive fear and rejection of the concept.  Unfortunately, often by those who would benefit the most by it.  But maybe that's the goal of the brainwashing - keep the perks in the hands of a relative few and let the rest suffer.  Which is so short-sighted.  That's exactly the cause of social revolutions, and I fear that one is brewing in the USofA.

I'm one of the Americans who sees "socialism" as bad thing overall.  The USA became a great and successful country because of the opportunity for individuals to start with nothing and work their way up to become a success.  Both immigrants and native born Americans have been successful for hundreds of years through their hard work and perseverance.  This has led to a country which has been widely acknowledged as the economic leader of the world.  It's also the easiest place in the world to FIRE. 

See the definition of socialism below:

Definition of socialism from Meriam Webster:
1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property
2b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3 : a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

My problem with socialism is that when the government owns and controls the property, goods and wealth there is a much less direct tie between how good a job someone does or how hard they work and how well they are paid (or rewarded).  This results in much less incentive for individuals to work hard and be successful.  The more each person can see a path to be rewarded for doing constructive things the more a society will flourish. 

Now, I'm not such a hard core capitalist that I don't think we should have some government intervention that could be considered socialism. 
-  Social security is needed in our country because so many people don't save adequately for retirement.  But, most of us won't get nearly what we should from it because the government has mis-managed and raided the funds. 
-  Welfare is needed in our country.  Some people have major challenges and need support. (challenges like poor health, mental illness, extreme lack or privilege, etc)  However, we should set it up so it's designed to be a short term solution as much as possible.  Right now, people are penalized for working and rewarded for having kids who are raised to stay on welfare. 
-  I don't pretend to have the answer for healthcare.  Simplified billing and transparency of costs prior to care would help.  We may still need government intervention.  Our system is clearly broken.  Government run healthcare doesn't seem to be all sunshine and roses either. 

Basically, I want to keep a system where an individual can work hard, "pull themselves up by their bootstraps" and be successful.  Capitalism has a better track record of that than socialism.  I recognize that not everyone has the same starting point and we need to help the underprivileged.  We just need to be sure we keep a system that rewards hard work, innovation and creativity while we help them.

I feel like you're really massively ignoring the socialist things that the government does which made America great.  Some super basic and simple stuff necessary for a society to thrive is socialist.

Public roads are socialist (the government is the only one allowed to build these roads on public land so it's a monopoly).  Traffic laws are socialist.  Hell, all laws are socialist . . . they're a government run monopoly and enforced by a special government run monopoly - police departments.  Fire departments are socialist too.  Public schools are socialist and government owned/run services . . . even though the majority of businesses rely on a steady stream of educated employees.

All environmental protections, all food/safety protections, drug regulations, water regulations - those are socialist government rules, enforced by socialist agencies.  Banning slavery or instituting child labor laws are just a few of many examples of socialist interference in the free market.  Time and again private business with a capitalist motive has proven themselves incapable of providing this sort of necessity for people.

Hell, even banking in the US is socialist at it's roots - the federal reserve is a government run monopoly with the goal of maintaining control the nation's currency.  The means of production and the distribution of goods by the central bank is government owned/run - because every economist knows that a market allowed to run truly free is terrible for a country.

Socialism is bad when it's uncontrolled and unchecked by capitalism - it destroys motivation to work and becomes laden down with inefficiencies.  Capitalism is equally as bad when it's uncontrolled and unchecked by socialism because it concentrates wealth and power into the hands of very few - eventually causing stagnation and revolution.  But socialism vs capitalism is a false dichotomy.  There exist zero successful countries in the world who have got there by following pure capitalism or pure socialism.  Every successful nation in the world has a combination of both.  They work hand in hand and are both equally necessary.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: John Galt incarnate! on January 18, 2021, 05:24:58 PM



I'm one of the Americans who sees "socialism" as bad thing overall.  The USA became a great and successful country because of the opportunity for individuals to start with nothing and work their way up to become a success.  Both immigrants and native born Americans have been successful for hundreds of years through their hard work and perseverance.  This has led to a country which has been widely acknowledged as the economic leader of the world.  It's also the easiest place in the world to FIRE. 

See the definition of socialism below:

Definition of socialism from Meriam Webster:
1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property
2b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3 : a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

My problem with socialism is that when the government owns and controls the property, goods and wealth there is a much less direct tie between how good a job someone does or how hard they work and how well they are paid (or rewarded).  This results in much less incentive for individuals to work hard and be successful.  The more each person can see a path to be rewarded for doing constructive things the more a society will flourish. 

Now, I'm not such a hard core capitalist that I don't think we should have some government intervention that could be considered socialism. 
-  Social security is needed in our country because so many people don't save adequately for retirement.  But, most of us won't get nearly what we should from it because the government has mis-managed and raided the funds. 
-  Welfare is needed in our country.  Some people have major challenges and need support. (challenges like poor health, mental illness, extreme lack or privilege, etc)  However, we should set it up so it's designed to be a short term solution as much as possible.  Right now, people are penalized for working and rewarded for having kids who are raised to stay on welfare. 
-  I don't pretend to have the answer for healthcare.  Simplified billing and transparency of costs prior to care would help.  We may still need government intervention.  Our system is clearly broken.  Government run healthcare doesn't seem to be all sunshine and roses either. 

Basically, I want to keep a system where an individual can work hard, "pull themselves up by their bootstraps" and be successful.  Capitalism has a better track record of that than socialism.  I recognize that not everyone has the same starting point and we need to help the underprivileged.  We just need to be sure we keep a system that rewards hard work, innovation and creativity while we help them. 

edit:  I recognize that socialism at it's roots has good intentions.  We all want (or should want) everyone to have shelter, food, medicine, clothing, etc.  The difference comes in what we think is the most effective way to accomplish this.  Socialism taken too far can bring the standard of living of everyone down in an effort to be "fair".

I agree that America is an optimal nation in which to pursue FIRE.

Socialism homogenizes mediocrity, especially in the public-sector workforce.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: Morning Glory on January 18, 2021, 06:00:23 PM
Almost 400k dead from Covid now. 500k predicted dead by mid February. Vaccine rollout bungled. Second pandemic of mental health issues rising. Homeless numbers growing. Healthcare workers burned out. No end in sight.

I'm doing my best to stay sane

Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: ericrugiero on January 20, 2021, 08:44:08 AM
I feel like you're really massively ignoring the socialist things that the government does which made America great.  Some super basic and simple stuff necessary for a society to thrive is socialist.

Public roads are socialist (the government is the only one allowed to build these roads on public land so it's a monopoly).  Traffic laws are socialist.  Hell, all laws are socialist . . . they're a government run monopoly and enforced by a special government run monopoly - police departments.  Fire departments are socialist too.  Public schools are socialist and government owned/run services . . . even though the majority of businesses rely on a steady stream of educated employees.

All environmental protections, all food/safety protections, drug regulations, water regulations - those are socialist government rules, enforced by socialist agencies.  Banning slavery or instituting child labor laws are just a few of many examples of socialist interference in the free market.  Time and again private business with a capitalist motive has proven themselves incapable of providing this sort of necessity for people.

Hell, even banking in the US is socialist at it's roots - the federal reserve is a government run monopoly with the goal of maintaining control the nation's currency.  The means of production and the distribution of goods by the central bank is government owned/run - because every economist knows that a market allowed to run truly free is terrible for a country.

Socialism is bad when it's uncontrolled and unchecked by capitalism - it destroys motivation to work and becomes laden down with inefficiencies.  Capitalism is equally as bad when it's uncontrolled and unchecked by socialism because it concentrates wealth and power into the hands of very few - eventually causing stagnation and revolution.  But socialism vs capitalism is a false dichotomy.  There exist zero successful countries in the world who have got there by following pure capitalism or pure socialism.  Every successful nation in the world has a combination of both.  They work hand in hand and are both equally necessary.

Sure, the government is involved in lots of things and we need them to provide roads, oversee electric infrastructure, oversee banking, etc.  I'm not at all saying we can have a pure capitalist society with no government oversite.  Some of that oversite is socialism.  But, from my experience, the things the government runs are less efficient than the things that are done in a free market. 

I do not equate banning slavery, child labor or most other laws with socialism.  Anything the government does is not automatically socialism. 

In my opinion, we should have socialistic policies where it's truly needed.  When we have a choice, we should favor capitalism because it rewards hard work and ingenuity which makes for a more successful society. 
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: former player on January 20, 2021, 08:53:26 AM
I feel like you're really massively ignoring the socialist things that the government does which made America great.  Some super basic and simple stuff necessary for a society to thrive is socialist.

Public roads are socialist (the government is the only one allowed to build these roads on public land so it's a monopoly).  Traffic laws are socialist.  Hell, all laws are socialist . . . they're a government run monopoly and enforced by a special government run monopoly - police departments.  Fire departments are socialist too.  Public schools are socialist and government owned/run services . . . even though the majority of businesses rely on a steady stream of educated employees.

All environmental protections, all food/safety protections, drug regulations, water regulations - those are socialist government rules, enforced by socialist agencies.  Banning slavery or instituting child labor laws are just a few of many examples of socialist interference in the free market.  Time and again private business with a capitalist motive has proven themselves incapable of providing this sort of necessity for people.

Hell, even banking in the US is socialist at it's roots - the federal reserve is a government run monopoly with the goal of maintaining control the nation's currency.  The means of production and the distribution of goods by the central bank is government owned/run - because every economist knows that a market allowed to run truly free is terrible for a country.

Socialism is bad when it's uncontrolled and unchecked by capitalism - it destroys motivation to work and becomes laden down with inefficiencies.  Capitalism is equally as bad when it's uncontrolled and unchecked by socialism because it concentrates wealth and power into the hands of very few - eventually causing stagnation and revolution.  But socialism vs capitalism is a false dichotomy.  There exist zero successful countries in the world who have got there by following pure capitalism or pure socialism.  Every successful nation in the world has a combination of both.  They work hand in hand and are both equally necessary.

Sure, the government is involved in lots of things and we need them to provide roads, oversee electric infrastructure, oversee banking, etc.  I'm not at all saying we can have a pure capitalist society with no government oversite.  Some of that oversite is socialism.  But, from my experience, the things the government runs are less efficient than the things that are done in a free market. 

I do not equate banning slavery, child labor or most other laws with socialism.  Anything the government does is not automatically socialism. 

In my opinion, we should have socialistic policies where it's truly needed.  When we have a choice, we should favor capitalism because it rewards hard work and ingenuity which makes for a more successful society.
Efficiency is not the only criterion, or even the most important for many areas of society.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: Unique User on January 20, 2021, 08:56:59 AM
Sure, the government is involved in lots of things and we need them to provide roads, oversee electric infrastructure, oversee banking, etc.  I'm not at all saying we can have a pure capitalist society with no government oversite.  Some of that oversite is socialism.  But, from my experience, the things the government runs are less efficient than the things that are done in a free market.

In my opinion, we should have socialistic policies where it's truly needed.  When we have a choice, we should favor capitalism because it rewards hard work and ingenuity which makes for a more successful society.

I feel like there is this myth that has persisted since Reagan that government and public entities do not do a good job and promote mediocrity.  I am constantly amazed by the dysfunction, mediocrity, favoritism and cronyism found in corporations DH and I have found in the last ten years working for large corporations - regardless of industry.  Also, healthcare is a big one where government does a better job than the free market.  Our ACA premiums will be $1,500 a month for three and I don't expect Cobra to be any better. 
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: GuitarStv on January 20, 2021, 09:13:52 AM
I feel like you're really massively ignoring the socialist things that the government does which made America great.  Some super basic and simple stuff necessary for a society to thrive is socialist.

Public roads are socialist (the government is the only one allowed to build these roads on public land so it's a monopoly).  Traffic laws are socialist.  Hell, all laws are socialist . . . they're a government run monopoly and enforced by a special government run monopoly - police departments.  Fire departments are socialist too.  Public schools are socialist and government owned/run services . . . even though the majority of businesses rely on a steady stream of educated employees.

All environmental protections, all food/safety protections, drug regulations, water regulations - those are socialist government rules, enforced by socialist agencies.  Banning slavery or instituting child labor laws are just a few of many examples of socialist interference in the free market.  Time and again private business with a capitalist motive has proven themselves incapable of providing this sort of necessity for people.

Hell, even banking in the US is socialist at it's roots - the federal reserve is a government run monopoly with the goal of maintaining control the nation's currency.  The means of production and the distribution of goods by the central bank is government owned/run - because every economist knows that a market allowed to run truly free is terrible for a country.

Socialism is bad when it's uncontrolled and unchecked by capitalism - it destroys motivation to work and becomes laden down with inefficiencies.  Capitalism is equally as bad when it's uncontrolled and unchecked by socialism because it concentrates wealth and power into the hands of very few - eventually causing stagnation and revolution.  But socialism vs capitalism is a false dichotomy.  There exist zero successful countries in the world who have got there by following pure capitalism or pure socialism.  Every successful nation in the world has a combination of both.  They work hand in hand and are both equally necessary.

Sure, the government is involved in lots of things and we need them to provide roads, oversee electric infrastructure, oversee banking, etc.  I'm not at all saying we can have a pure capitalist society with no government oversite.  Some of that oversite is socialism.  But, from my experience, the things the government runs are less efficient than the things that are done in a free market.

This is a problematic argument.  When you say 'efficiency' I think you mean 'cost efficiency/profitability'.  The thing is, many things that the government does aren't done for cost efficiency purposes . . . so that becomes a shit metric to use.

Take the USPS.  Part of the mandate of the USPS is to provide mailing service (within certain standards) to every American for set rates.  This includes remote or small places where for profit companies cannot provide profitable service.  That means that from a purely cost perspective the USPS will be less 'efficient' than UPS or FedEx.  But that's not a failure and an example of 'inefficiency of government', it's by design.

Another example would be the government monopoly of building of public roads on public lands.  They're crucial components of our societies infrastructure.  A tremendous amount of the wealth that little capitalists run around and make is dependent on this infrastructure.  The government doesn't collect anywhere near the cost of building and maintenance through gas and transportation taxes from people for the use of these roads . . . does that make them a failure?

Now if you want to argue that there are government areas of inefficiencies . . . absolutely true.  In some instances there are ways to use the profit motive of capitalism to improve these areas - and I support those where it makes sense to do so.  But you have to realize that the capitalist model of optimizing for short term profit fails society when applied in many instances.



I do not equate banning slavery, child labor or most other laws with socialism.  Anything the government does is not automatically socialism. 

Anything the government does is not automatically socialism - true.  But any time the government exerts control over the means of exchange to prevent the market from operating freely it is a socialist act.  Slavery and child labor are both permitted and allowed in a free market.  The same is true of pollution controls

Collectively we've decided we don't want the market to allow this though, so as a society have decided to prevent capitalists from having the choice.  This is a good thing - but it's certainly not capitalist.  The US had a whole civil war trying to prevent it's southern states from operating their capitalist slavery system.



In my opinion, we should have socialistic policies where it's truly needed.  When we have a choice, we should favor capitalism because it rewards hard work and ingenuity which makes for a more successful society.

It's my opinion that socialism and capitalism should be considered by the merits of their approach.  The choice of which direction to go in shouldn't be a default pre-set . . . it should be based upon what will be the best for society as a whole.  Sometimes that means socialist approach and sometimes that means capitalist.  Assuming that one is always better than the other by default smacks of zealotry.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: Davnasty on January 20, 2021, 09:21:52 AM
I feel like you're really massively ignoring the socialist things that the government does which made America great.  Some super basic and simple stuff necessary for a society to thrive is socialist.

Public roads are socialist (the government is the only one allowed to build these roads on public land so it's a monopoly).  Traffic laws are socialist.  Hell, all laws are socialist . . . they're a government run monopoly and enforced by a special government run monopoly - police departments.  Fire departments are socialist too.  Public schools are socialist and government owned/run services . . . even though the majority of businesses rely on a steady stream of educated employees.

All environmental protections, all food/safety protections, drug regulations, water regulations - those are socialist government rules, enforced by socialist agencies.  Banning slavery or instituting child labor laws are just a few of many examples of socialist interference in the free market.  Time and again private business with a capitalist motive has proven themselves incapable of providing this sort of necessity for people.

Hell, even banking in the US is socialist at it's roots - the federal reserve is a government run monopoly with the goal of maintaining control the nation's currency.  The means of production and the distribution of goods by the central bank is government owned/run - because every economist knows that a market allowed to run truly free is terrible for a country.

Socialism is bad when it's uncontrolled and unchecked by capitalism - it destroys motivation to work and becomes laden down with inefficiencies.  Capitalism is equally as bad when it's uncontrolled and unchecked by socialism because it concentrates wealth and power into the hands of very few - eventually causing stagnation and revolution.  But socialism vs capitalism is a false dichotomy.  There exist zero successful countries in the world who have got there by following pure capitalism or pure socialism.  Every successful nation in the world has a combination of both.  They work hand in hand and are both equally necessary.

Sure, the government is involved in lots of things and we need them to provide roads, oversee electric infrastructure, oversee banking, etc.  I'm not at all saying we can have a pure capitalist society with no government oversite.  Some of that oversite is socialism.  But, from my experience, the things the government runs are less efficient than the things that are done in a free market. 

I do not equate banning slavery, child labor or most other laws with socialism.  Anything the government does is not automatically socialism. 

In my opinion, we should have socialistic policies where it's truly needed.  When we have a choice, we should favor capitalism because it rewards hard work and ingenuity which makes for a more successful society.

Where is it truly needed and when do we have a choice? I think those distinctions are subjective.

Primary education could be privatized so we do have a choice, in fact they already are to an extent and some people are pushing for them to be more privatized. Would that be more efficient? Same goes for roads and other transportation infrastructure. Really anything could be privatized if you have enough imagination.

And even if some of these aspects of society were more efficient privately owned, efficiency isn't everything. There's also the question of equality and social mobility. An efficient privatized school system for example would serve to further increase inequality. Same for privatized roads.

I think the reality is anything can be socialized and anything can be privatized and there are pros and cons to either choice. We should be able to discuss those pros and cons without demonizing the terminology.

ETA: That's a good way to put it GuitarStv, we should not default to one being better than the other. Every situation is different.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: ctuser1 on January 20, 2021, 10:08:15 AM
I do not equate banning slavery, child labor or most other laws with socialism.  Anything the government does is not automatically socialism. 

Southern thinkers *did* equate abolition with "socialism". Google "Louisa McCord". She loved using Proudhon as a socialist foil to prop up her inhumane ideas.

And she was not alone!

If you are an "originalist" in the same mold of the judges that conservatives like to get in the court, then arguing the exact point that you did is - let's say - inconsistent.

It is quite common-sense to see why southerners thought that way. Blacks were property to them, and a means of production, in the same manner goats and cows are today. If you take that property away from them for "common good", that IS a textbook definition of socialism.

If you wanted to extend the same line of thinking to todays world (without equating the horrors of slavery to today's social malaise), then it is easy to see why some people think that their "right" to a private healthcare or guns is more important than common goods like preventing Sandy Hook, or providing healthcare for uninsured, etc.

Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: ericrugiero on January 20, 2021, 10:25:15 AM
It is quite common-sense to see why southerners thought that way. Blacks were property to them, and a means of production, in the same manner goats and cows are today. If you take that property away from them for "common good", that IS a textbook definition of socialism.

Sure, if you view blacks as property then outlawing slavery is socialism.  I can totally see how some misguided slave owners would call it socialism.  You and I view them as humans that are just as worthy as us anyone else.  That's why I view abolition as something we ethically had to do and not socialism. 
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: ericrugiero on January 20, 2021, 10:31:33 AM
I do not equate banning slavery, child labor or most other laws with socialism.  Anything the government does is not automatically socialism. 

If you are an "originalist" in the same mold of the judges that conservatives like to get in the court, then arguing the exact point that you did is - let's say - inconsistent.


I'm not following this argument.  Can you elaborate? 
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: former player on January 20, 2021, 10:39:14 AM
It is quite common-sense to see why southerners thought that way. Blacks were property to them, and a means of production, in the same manner goats and cows are today. If you take that property away from them for "common good", that IS a textbook definition of socialism.

Sure, if you view blacks as property then outlawing slavery is socialism.  I can totally see how some misguided slave owners would call it socialism.  You and I view them as humans that are just as worthy as us anyone else.  That's why I view abolition as something we ethically had to do and not socialism.
Logically, given the then existing legal premise of slave ownership, sanctioned by the Constitution, abolition was both something that had to be done and socialism.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: ctuser1 on January 20, 2021, 10:44:14 AM
I do not equate banning slavery, child labor or most other laws with socialism.  Anything the government does is not automatically socialism. 

If you are an "originalist" in the same mold of the judges that conservatives like to get in the court, then arguing the exact point that you did is - let's say - inconsistent.


I'm not following this argument.  Can you elaborate?

Originalists come in a couple of flavors. Some tell us we have to use the original meaning extant at the time of writing laws/constitution. Some tell us we have to use the "intent" of the lawmakers over and above the textual meaning.

The second variety is more extremist. Scalia was of this type (despite whatever protestations he may have made). This is why he dictated he alone could decide the true intent over and above the text ("militia") of the second amendment in Heller and over and above other precedents - some of which were unanimous - for decades and centuries preceding him. 

Then of course there is a third group of judges who are textualists, and I consider that to be an honest and consistent thought process and hence respect that point of view even when I may not always agree. But they are not relevant for this discussion.

There was a specific legal "meaning" of the word "socialism" back in the day when much of the laws/constitution was written. If you are an originalist, you would be compelled to use that meaning in any legal context discussing those laws. If the context is "Civil Rights" laws, then the word "socialism" would not include abolition, per originalist logic. For much of the rest of the constitution and legal jurisprudence (e.g. "corporations are people", decided in early 1800's), it would.

Hence, if you make a blanket argument without nuance like you did, you would run afoul of Originalist dogma.

At least that is my - layman's, non-lawyer - reading.

Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: ericrugiero on January 20, 2021, 11:43:44 AM
I do not equate banning slavery, child labor or most other laws with socialism.  Anything the government does is not automatically socialism. 

If you are an "originalist" in the same mold of the judges that conservatives like to get in the court, then arguing the exact point that you did is - let's say - inconsistent.


I'm not following this argument.  Can you elaborate?

Originalists come in a couple of flavors. Some tell us we have to use the original meaning extant at the time of writing laws/constitution. Some tell us we have to use the "intent" of the lawmakers over and above the textual meaning.

The second variety is more extremist. Scalia was of this type (despite whatever protestations he may have made). This is why he dictated he alone could decide the true intent over and above the text ("militia") of the second amendment in Heller and over and above other precedents - some of which were unanimous - for decades and centuries preceding him. 

Then of course there is a third group of judges who are textualists, and I consider that to be an honest and consistent thought process and hence respect that point of view even when I may not always agree. But they are not relevant for this discussion.

There was a specific legal "meaning" of the word "socialism" back in the day when much of the laws/constitution was written. If you are an originalist, you would be compelled to use that meaning in any legal context discussing those laws. If the context is "Civil Rights" laws, then the word "socialism" would not include abolition, per originalist logic. For much of the rest of the constitution and legal jurisprudence (e.g. "corporations are people", decided in early 1800's), it would.

Hence, if you make a blanket argument without nuance like you did, you would run afoul of Originalist dogma.

At least that is my - layman's, non-lawyer - reading.

OK.  I haven't done enough research on that to say I'm an originalist or textualist and have never claimed to be either.  I also don't know the specific legal meaning of socialism when the constitution was written.  I'm was using the modern merriam webster definition I posted above.  My basic point is that most of our laws (do not murder, do not steal, etc) aren't based on either socialism or capitalism.  They are based on some combination of the Bible and a more pragmatic approach of treating people well/fairly in order to have a stable society.  An example was given of abolition being socialism which makes sense if you consider black people property.  As I said above, they are not property so abolition is not socialism.  In general, I'm thinking we start with our laws and then choose capitalism, socialism, or some combination.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: cerat0n1a on January 20, 2021, 12:32:31 PM
Sure, the government is involved in lots of things and we need them to provide roads, oversee electric infrastructure, oversee banking, etc.  I'm not at all saying we can have a pure capitalist society with no government oversite.  Some of that oversite is socialism.  But, from my experience, the things the government runs are less efficient than the things that are done in a free market. 

I do not equate banning slavery, child labor or most other laws with socialism.  Anything the government does is not automatically socialism. 

In my opinion, we should have socialistic policies where it's truly needed.  When we have a choice, we should favor capitalism because it rewards hard work and ingenuity which makes for a more successful society.

While I generally agree with what you say here, it's quite difficult to make the case that the US health system is anything like as efficient as the government run healthcare systems in other rich Western nations. If you measure healthcare spending as a percentage of GDP, the US spends almost double what places like New Zealand and the UK do, and at least 60-70% more than every EU country, in order to achieve overall health outcomes that are worse than just about every other Western country. You do have a lot more shiny offices and high-paid executives in insurance companies though.

Overall, US government spending is around 38% of GDP. That means the overall size of the government as a proportion of the economy wouldn't look wildly out of line in 'socialist' Europe - Netherlands & Spain are at 42%, UK at 39%, Ireland at 25%, Switzerland at 32% to pick a few at random. It's just that spending priorities are different - a government budget of $700 billion per year on defence isn't considered to be 'socialism'.

Also interesting to compare which things are run by governments and which are not. In the US, for example, you have a quasi-government corporation running railroads, same thing is done by private companies in many other countries. You have the government heavily involved in farm and home mortgage lending, which I don't believe happens anywhere in Europe. You have a government owned organisation which delivers letters and parcels, where many European equivalents are now just regular quoted public companies. I suspect if someone were to propose a government agency to do that today, it would be laughed away pretty quickly, but the United States Postal Service is one of the few government agencies mentioned in the original constitution.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: ctuser1 on January 20, 2021, 12:37:43 PM
Overall, US government spending is around 38% of GDP. That means the overall size of the government as a proportion of the economy wouldn't look wildly out of line in 'socialist' Europe - Netherlands & Spain are at 42%, UK at 39%, Ireland at 25%, Switzerland at 32% to pick a few at random. It's just that spending priorities are different - a government budget of $700 billion per year on defence isn't considered to be 'socialism'.

US GDP is much higher, per capita, than most of those "socialist" countries. So 38% of US GDP is not equal to 38% of France's GDP, e.g.

This further strengthens your overall argument. I just wanted to point this out because you were short selling it.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: GuitarStv on January 20, 2021, 12:41:04 PM
An example was given of abolition being socialism which makes sense if you consider black people property.  As I said above, they are not property so abolition is not socialism.  In general, I'm thinking we start with our laws and then choose capitalism, socialism, or some combination.

You're cheating here.

so·cial·ism - a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

The laws that ban slavery are created by the community as a whole to regulate and prevent free exchange (of slaves).  It exactly meets the definition of socialism.  It's weird to say that 'people aren't property' without getting back to the socialist roots of why they're not considered property any more by law.  It's important to remember that free market capitalism fully condoned and supported the enslavement of others to generate wealth for the few.

But look, slavery is a really powerful hot button topic.  I get it.  If that's getting you riled up then by the same token, environmental regulation is clearly socialist.  We're telling the free market what to do regarding negative externalities.  A good capitalist gold mining company may well choose to create holding pools of heavy metals while they're extracting gold and making great profit.  But the problem is, when that company goes out of business (maybe a hundred or a hundred and fifty years later) those holding pools still exist.  And as time goes on, they tend to leech chemicals into waterways and damage the surrounding land.  There exists no capitalist way to address the problem.  We need these socialist laws that meddle with what companies can freely do to force a policy for long term environmental care.

Current environmental laws are still very much overly permissive when it comes to negative externalities.


Socialism is certainly not the cure to all woes . . . but it's also not a boogeyman to be afraid of, and (applied judiciously) has caused tremendous good through history.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: cerat0n1a on January 20, 2021, 12:53:07 PM
Overall, US government spending is around 38% of GDP. That means the overall size of the government as a proportion of the economy wouldn't look wildly out of line in 'socialist' Europe - Netherlands & Spain are at 42%, UK at 39%, Ireland at 25%, Switzerland at 32% to pick a few at random. It's just that spending priorities are different - a government budget of $700 billion per year on defence isn't considered to be 'socialism'.

US GDP is much higher, per capita, than most of those "socialist" countries. So 38% of US GDP is not equal to 38% of France's GDP, e.g.

This further strengthens your overall argument. I just wanted to point this out because you were short selling it.

Using %age of GDP rather than absolute amounts lets us avoid the argument "of course our health spending is higher, our doctors, nurses and janitors get paid more."

If you take the absolute spend per capita rather than as a GDP %age, the US spends 2-3 times as much on healthcare as European countries or Canada. If you adjust the amounts to take into account purchasing power, the US still spends more than double on healthcare what other rich countries do, yet still comes bottom of wealthy countries for most healthcare outcomes. Now you can argue why that is - more obesity, higher rates of extreme poverty and so on, but it's difficult to come up with any data that says private US healthcare is anywhere near as efficient as government run services elsewhere.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: Samuel on January 20, 2021, 01:02:12 PM
Abolition was "socialist" in roughly the same way that imminent domain laws are. If the government decides the greater good requires you to be forced to sell your house in order to build a new freeway they can force you to sell your property for something approximating market value. Most European powers ended their slavery eras by compensating slave owners. Lincoln proposed the same in the US but the South was already in rebellion and not interested in negotiating. Interestingly, Lincoln DID pay slave owners in the District of Columbia compensation when he made slavery illegal there.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: ericrugiero on January 20, 2021, 01:13:46 PM
An example was given of abolition being socialism which makes sense if you consider black people property.  As I said above, they are not property so abolition is not socialism.  In general, I'm thinking we start with our laws and then choose capitalism, socialism, or some combination.

You're cheating here.

so·cial·ism - a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

The laws that ban slavery are created by the community as a whole to regulate and prevent free exchange (of slaves).  It exactly meets the definition of socialism.  It's weird to say that 'people aren't property' without getting back to the socialist roots of why they're not considered property any more by law.  It's important to remember that free market capitalism fully condoned and supported the enslavement of others to generate wealth for the few.

But look, slavery is a really powerful hot button topic.  I get it.  If that's getting you riled up then by the same token, environmental regulation is clearly socialist.  We're telling the free market what to do regarding negative externalities.  A good capitalist gold mining company may well choose to create holding pools of heavy metals while they're extracting gold and making great profit.  But the problem is, when that company goes out of business (maybe a hundred or a hundred and fifty years later) those holding pools still exist.  And as time goes on, they tend to leech chemicals into waterways and damage the surrounding land.  There exists no capitalist way to address the problem.  We need these socialist laws that meddle with what companies can freely do to force a policy for long term environmental care.

Current environmental laws are still very much overly permissive when it comes to negative externalities.


Socialism is certainly not the cure to all woes . . . but it's also not a boogeyman to be afraid of, and (applied judiciously) has caused tremendous good through history.

OK, so if your definition of socialism is that ANY restriction on free market for ANY reason is socialism then doing away with slavery is socialism.  That's not what most people view as socialism.  The definition above specifically calls out ECONOMIC theory.  If the North had told the South they couldn't have slaves because it was ECONOMICALLY unfair, I would agree it was socialism.  When it's for moral reasons, that doesn't fit my, (and I think most people's) definition of socialism.  Same thing for environmental regulations.  Establish some regulations to limit the damage companies can do the environment (for moral reasons or the greater good, not for the economy) and then let the free market go to work.  I'm in favor of that whether we call it socialism or not. 

Clearly America has several socialist policies (some of which I like and some I don't). 

The part of socialism that I'm not in favor of, and that many American's dislike, is when we limit free market economy because "it's not fair".  When we take away the reward for hard work, very few people work hard.  As I said before, we need safety nets and programs to help the under-privileged.  Those are socialism.  I think we should limit them, but we do need them.  The goal should be to help people get off those socialistic programs. 
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: GuitarStv on January 20, 2021, 01:57:05 PM
OK, so if your definition of socialism is that ANY restriction on free market for ANY reason is socialism then doing away with slavery is socialism.  That's not what most people view as socialism.  The definition above specifically calls out ECONOMIC theory.  If the North had told the South they couldn't have slaves because it was ECONOMICALLY unfair, I would agree it was socialism.  When it's for moral reasons, that doesn't fit my, (and I think most people's) definition of socialism.  Same thing for environmental regulations.  Establish some regulations to limit the damage companies can do the environment (for moral reasons or the greater good, not for the economy) and then let the free market go to work.  I'm in favor of that whether we call it socialism or not.

Clearly America has several socialist policies (some of which I like and some I don't).

The part of socialism that I'm not in favor of, and that many American's dislike, is when we limit free market economy because "it's not fair".  When we take away the reward for hard work, very few people work hard.  As I said before, we need safety nets and programs to help the under-privileged.  Those are socialism.  I think we should limit them, but we do need them.  The goal should be to help people get off those socialistic programs.

There's a lot to unpack here.


I can buy your argument that ending slavery was done for moral reasons, not economic (slaves were great for the economy, that's why capitalists loved them!).  We enforce societies morality by our rules and laws - which are inherently political.  If you closely read the dictionary definition I provided, you'll see that it specifically refers to 'political and economic' organization.  Not just economic.

I have some trouble with your arguing that capitalism should be limited based upon 'morality' though.  Morality is a meaningless concept that changes over time, culture, and place.  Obviously, slavery wasn't considered immoral for most of the bible (there are many passages that support and condone it).  200 years ago the British would have argued that allowing Indian people to govern themselves was immoral . . . and that without the firm hand of a white man governing terrible chaos would ensue.  100 years ago, most people in the US would argue that being gay was fundamentally immoral.  Under some branches of Islamic thinking it's immoral to make interest on a loan.  This is a morass of constantly shifting quicksand.

It's also incredibly hard to decide.  We limit the ability of a company to damage the environment, because we're afraid that it will damage the home of some wildlife that's endangered.  Is preventing the company from doing this fair?  Is it moral to allow the company to damage the environment?

But leaving that for a moment . . . The United States has a long history of limiting the free market when things aren't fair.  Look up market allocation, bid rigging, price fixing, and monopolies.  These have all been limited by law because they're fundamentally unfair business practice.  Do you believe that ensuring fair competition is a bad idea?

As far as getting people off of 'socialistic programs' . . . I think what you mean here is stuff like welfare and food stamps, right?  We're in agreement that the goal should be to get people to a situation where they're able to break free of these programs and better themselves.  The thing is, often times it's social programs that have the best track record of doing this.

To take a case in point . . . criminal reform.  Nordic countries consistently do better than we do here in North America with the reformation and reintegration of prisoners into society and reducing recidivism.  The reason for this is that they have far more social programs to cover mental health problems, education, job training, etc.  Here in North America we often provide the bare minimum . . . and get bare minimum results, including people who learn that it's too hard to succeed so simply give up entirely.    Counterintuitively, providing more and better social programs can often reduce reliance on social programs.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: ericrugiero on January 20, 2021, 02:09:36 PM
But leaving that for a moment . . . The United States has a long history of limiting the free market when things aren't fair.  Look up market allocation, bid rigging, price fixing, and monopolies.  These have all been limited by law because they're fundamentally unfair business practice.  Do you believe that ensuring fair competition is a bad idea?
Maybe I worded that poorly.  No, I don't believe that fair competition is a bad idea.  On the contrary, I want nothing more than a fair competition.  I just want there to be competition so that people are pushed to improve and rewarded when they do well. 

As far as getting people off of 'socialistic programs' . . . I think what you mean here is stuff like welfare and food stamps, right?  We're in agreement that the goal should be to get people to a situation where they're able to break free of these programs and better themselves.  The thing is, often times it's social programs that have the best track record of doing this.

To take a case in point . . . criminal reform.  Nordic countries consistently do better than we do here in North America with the reformation and reintegration of prisoners into society and reducing recidivism.  The reason for this is that they have far more social programs to cover mental health problems, education, job training, etc.  Here in North America we often provide the bare minimum . . . and get bare minimum results, including people who learn that it's too hard to succeed so simply give up entirely.    Counterintuitively, providing more and better social programs can often reduce reliance on social programs.
I don't disagree with this.  I would absolutely support programs that help prisoners to be successful again.  I'm big on second chances and giving people the opportunity to succeed. 
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: maizefolk on January 20, 2021, 02:17:29 PM
Morality is a meaningless concept that changes over time, culture, and place. 

This is something you've asserted repeatedly on the forum. You're certainly welcome to continue to believe this is true (obviously, after all there is no way for one person to control another's believes). You and I have debated this belief at length, and I don't seek to convince you to change your viewpoint.

But in my observation, your belief that morality is a meaningless concept is one which is not shared with most people. Which again, is perfectly okay. I bring it up only because generally, arguments about other topics where your position is derived from this particular belief will you are likely going to be unproductive ones that just end in frustration on both sides if the person you are arguing or discussing with disagrees on this core point.

Anyway, carry on.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: GuitarStv on January 20, 2021, 03:11:24 PM
But leaving that for a moment . . . The United States has a long history of limiting the free market when things aren't fair.  Look up market allocation, bid rigging, price fixing, and monopolies.  These have all been limited by law because they're fundamentally unfair business practice.  Do you believe that ensuring fair competition is a bad idea?
Maybe I worded that poorly.  No, I don't believe that fair competition is a bad idea.  On the contrary, I want nothing more than a fair competition.  I just want there to be competition so that people are pushed to improve and rewarded when they do well. 

As far as getting people off of 'socialistic programs' . . . I think what you mean here is stuff like welfare and food stamps, right?  We're in agreement that the goal should be to get people to a situation where they're able to break free of these programs and better themselves.  The thing is, often times it's social programs that have the best track record of doing this.

To take a case in point . . . criminal reform.  Nordic countries consistently do better than we do here in North America with the reformation and reintegration of prisoners into society and reducing recidivism.  The reason for this is that they have far more social programs to cover mental health problems, education, job training, etc.  Here in North America we often provide the bare minimum . . . and get bare minimum results, including people who learn that it's too hard to succeed so simply give up entirely.    Counterintuitively, providing more and better social programs can often reduce reliance on social programs.
I don't disagree with this.  I would absolutely support programs that help prisoners to be successful again.  I'm big on second chances and giving people the opportunity to succeed.

We seem to be mostly in agreement then.  :P
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: RetiredAt63 on January 20, 2021, 05:10:53 PM
Morality is a meaningless concept that changes over time, culture, and place. 

This is something you've asserted repeatedly on the forum. You're certainly welcome to continue to believe this is true (obviously, after all there is no way for one person to control another's believes). You and I have debated this belief at length, and I don't seek to convince you to change your viewpoint.

But in my observation, your belief that morality is a meaningless concept is one which is not shared with most people. Which again, is perfectly okay. I bring it up only because generally, arguments about other topics where your position is derived from this particular belief will you are likely going to be unproductive ones that just end in frustration on both sides if the person you are arguing or discussing with disagrees on this core point.

Anyway, carry on.

Morality does change.  Different cultures have different moralities at the same time, and one culture's morality can change over time.  Morality only seems unchanging if other times and cultures are ignored.

Scenario/moral dilemma:
If I am living in a society with very scarce food resources, and women in my society breastfeed until a child is 3 because otherwise children don't get enough protein in their diet, what do I do if I have another baby when my previous baby is only 2 and needs breastfeeding for another year minimum?  I don't have enough food myself to make enough milk to feed 2 babies at once.  No other woman in my group has milk for my baby.  What is the moral thing to do?
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: maizefolk on January 20, 2021, 05:21:04 PM
Scenario/moral dilemma:
If I am living in a society with very scarce food resources, and women in my society breastfeed until a child is 3 because otherwise children don't get enough protein in their diet, what do I do if I have another baby when my previous baby is only 2 and needs breastfeeding for another year minimum?  I don't have enough food myself to make enough milk to feed 2 babies at once.  No other woman in my group has milk for my baby.  What is the moral thing to do?

I agree that this is a moral dilemma. Essentially it is a version of the trolley problem.

I disagree that the existence this or other ethical dilemmas validate the statement "morality is a meaningless concept".
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: RetiredAt63 on January 20, 2021, 05:53:56 PM
Scenario/moral dilemma:
If I am living in a society with very scarce food resources, and women in my society breastfeed until a child is 3 because otherwise children don't get enough protein in their diet, what do I do if I have another baby when my previous baby is only 2 and needs breastfeeding for another year minimum?  I don't have enough food myself to make enough milk to feed 2 babies at once.  No other woman in my group has milk for my baby.  What is the moral thing to do?

I agree that this is a moral dilemma. Essentially it is a version of the trolley problem.

I disagree that the existence this or other ethical dilemmas validate the statement "morality is a meaningless concept".

Somewhere back in the discussion was the implication that morality is consistent.  It isn't, it is based on a society's circumstances.  That wasn't a restatement of the trolley problem, that was a real life situation for many societies.  And the morality those societies generally developed was that if you can't find a wet nurse for the new baby, it is exposed to die or never allowed to breathe.  Because a society that tight on resources cannot afford to lose the 3 years of investment (pregnancy plus nursing) put into the older child.  And if the mother tries to nurse both children they will lose both children, and possibly her as well.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: ctuser1 on January 20, 2021, 05:55:28 PM
Scenario/moral dilemma:
If I am living in a society with very scarce food resources, and women in my society breastfeed until a child is 3 because otherwise children don't get enough protein in their diet, what do I do if I have another baby when my previous baby is only 2 and needs breastfeeding for another year minimum?  I don't have enough food myself to make enough milk to feed 2 babies at once.  No other woman in my group has milk for my baby.  What is the moral thing to do?

I agree that this is a moral dilemma. Essentially it is a version of the trolley problem.

I disagree that the existence this or other ethical dilemmas validate the statement "morality is a meaningless concept".

Any non-trivial and absolute statement like "morality is a meaningless concept" is Godel-incomplete. This is a mathematically provable truth; so I am allowed to make such an absolute statement with only a few trivial axioms without self-contradicting.

The above also cuts the other way, and generally cuts much further against the essentialist philosophical strands (which - AFAIK - encompasses most conservative thought, possibly with some tiny exceptions w.r.t. classical liberalism) than it does against the existentialist thought.

Anyone claiming that they alone have the key to the definition of morality based on their holy book, or their pasta and meatballs or their theory of evolution,  and that everyone else must follow their definition alone and nothing else, is generally BSing. In practical terms, such BS can be seen in the manner in which most proselytizing faiths (including the kind practiced by the wokest of the woke cancel culture warriors) are conducted day to day, or "pro-life" rhetoric flung about, etc.

Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: maizefolk on January 20, 2021, 06:13:59 PM
Somewhere back in the discussion was the implication that morality is consistent.  It isn't, it is based on a society's circumstances.  That wasn't a restatement of the trolley problem, that was a real life situation for many societies.  And the morality those societies generally developed was that if you can't find a wet nurse for the new baby, it is exposed to die or never allowed to breathe.  Because a society that tight on resources cannot afford to lose the 3 years of investment (pregnancy plus nursing) put into the older child.  And if the mother tries to nurse both children they will lose both children, and possibly her as well.

I seems to me that you may potentially be confounding questions of pragmatism with questions of ethics based on the bolded bit. But this is extraordinarily far outside my area of expertise. Setting that aside:

If we take it as a given that the moral solution, not just the pragmatic solution, was to prioritize the two year old over the newborn infant and that you state that many independent societies converged on the same answer to the same moral dilemma, that certainly sounds less like ethics and morality being meaningless or arbitrary and more like there being general trends of common answers to moral questions across history and geography.

Do you think that today we'd view the moral solution to be to abandon the two year old to their fate and try to save the newborn? Or would we converge on the same solution (whether through moral reasoning or pragmatic reasoning) if we were actually faced with the same choice and the same constraints?

Moral dilemmas are hard. The ones where there are recent precedents in our social circles are easier because we feel less bad about reaching the same resolution that was reached by our peers. Moral dilemmas without recent precedent, as the scenario you describe would be for someone who grew up in most of the world today, are even harder because we cannot even comfort ourselves by telling ourselves we resolved the problem in the same way as others so it was probably the right decision in the end.
Title: Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
Post by: RetiredAt63 on January 20, 2021, 09:07:00 PM
Somewhere back in the discussion was the implication that morality is consistent.  It isn't, it is based on a society's circumstances.  That wasn't a restatement of the trolley problem, that was a real life situation for many societies.  And the morality those societies generally developed was that if you can't find a wet nurse for the new baby, it is exposed to die or never allowed to breathe.  Because a society that tight on resources cannot afford to lose the 3 years of investment (pregnancy plus nursing) put into the older child.  And if the mother tries to nurse both children they will lose both children, and possibly her as well.

I seems to me that you may potentially be confounding questions of pragmatism with questions of ethics based on the bolded bit. But this is extraordinarily far outside my area of expertise. Setting that aside:

If we take it as a given that the moral solution, not just the pragmatic solution, was to prioritize the two year old over the newborn infant and that you state that many independent societies converged on the same answer to the same moral dilemma, that certainly sounds less like ethics and morality being meaningless or arbitrary and more like there being general trends of common answers to moral questions across history and geography.

Do you think that today we'd view the moral solution to be to abandon the two year old to their fate and try to save the newborn? Or would we converge on the same solution (whether through moral reasoning or pragmatic reasoning) if we were actually faced with the same choice and the same constraints?

Moral dilemmas are hard. The ones where there are recent precedents in our social circles are easier because we feel less bad about reaching the same resolution that was reached by our peers. Moral dilemmas without recent precedent, as the scenario you describe would be for someone who grew up in most of the world today, are even harder because we cannot even comfort ourselves by telling ourselves we resolved the problem in the same way as others so it was probably the right decision in the end.

In a modern context, I think it is both moral and pragmatic for a "first world" society to have universal healthcare*.  I know this is not a universal view.

* Note I did not say free health care.  It's  not free, it is a public resource funded by our taxes, just as roads are funded by our taxes.