Author Topic: America on the precipice: What are you doing?  (Read 16608 times)

mathlete

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #50 on: January 11, 2021, 08:34:37 AM »
I cannot accept "both sides"ing on this. That is also intellectually lazy IMO.

What "Both sides"-ing? I agree that people were objectively wrong in this case. My point is not who is wrong or not on this specific issue. My point is that we don't come back from this unless we all work at it. There will always be another divisive issue brought to the forefront, and we need to do a better job of diffusing these types of conflict or it will tear us apart.
I guess if suggesting that we could all be more empathetic boils down to "both sides"-ing, then I'm guilty of that.

Myself and millions of others compromised on a more progressive policy agenda to unite behind the "unity and decency" candidate. Listen to Joe Biden's victory speech and weigh it against Trump's Jan 6th speech. Consider that he and his enablers have actively sought to disenfranchise tens of millions of people over the last two months while also completely dropping the ball on vaccine distribution as 10K-20K people a week die of COVID.

I fail to see how "everyone needs to be more empathetic" is the way out here. I agree that it is the pacification route. "Turning the temperature down" will get us through the next few weeks and allow us to focus on more fun things knowing that the country won't burn down. It will also embolden the more Trumpy right to continue trying to delegitimize elections results moving forward. Making peace so we can all watch the NFL playoffs for a couple of weeks is short sighted when I know these people are going to try to take my vote away at some point.

The way out is for anti-democracy people to stop being anti-democracy.

Kris

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #51 on: January 11, 2021, 08:40:00 AM »
I hear you @jehovasfitness23  -- I too have family members that are Trump supporters.  ...

I talked with them after the mob violence last week, and they don't think Trump is to blame for it.  But -- they think what the rioters did was terrible.  OK, there's a tiny bit of common ground.  Let's all stay calm and try to build on that.   

I live in an area with tons of Trumps supporters.  I've talked to a few and this is representative of what they think.  NOBODY I've talked to thinks it was OK to break into the capitol.  They think it's equivalent to the violence that happened in the BLM protests and are opposed to both.  I even know one person who was at the rally but not near the capitol building.  He said the overall vibe was extremely peaceful and respectful.  I honestly believe the folks who broke in or support that type of action are a very small minority of the Trump supporters.

Well, then, I hope they are no longer supporting Trump. Considering Trump incited them to do it.

Paper Chaser

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #52 on: January 11, 2021, 08:47:41 AM »
I cannot accept "both sides"ing on this. That is also intellectually lazy IMO.

What "Both sides"-ing? I agree that people were objectively wrong in this case. My point is not who is wrong or not on this specific issue. My point is that we don't come back from this unless we all work at it. There will always be another divisive issue brought to the forefront, and we need to do a better job of diffusing these types of conflict or it will tear us apart.
I guess if suggesting that we could all be more empathetic boils down to "both sides"-ing, then I'm guilty of that.

Myself and millions of others compromised on a more progressive policy agenda to unite behind the "unity and decency" candidate. Listen to Joe Biden's victory speech and weigh it against Trump's Jan 6th speech. Consider that he and his enablers have actively sought to disenfranchise tens of millions of people over the last two months while also completely dropping the ball on vaccine distribution as 10K-20K people a week die of COVID.

I fail to see how "everyone needs to be more empathetic" is the way out here. I agree that it is the pacification route. "Turning the temperature down" will get us through the next few weeks and allow us to focus on more fun things knowing that the country won't burn down. It will also embolden the more Trumpy right to continue trying to delegitimize elections results moving forward. Making peace so we can all watch the NFL playoffs for a couple of weeks is short sighted when I know these people are going to try to take my vote away at some point.

The way out is for anti-democracy people to stop being anti-democracy.

I'm speaking of any divisive issue more than just Trump. There are many conflicts in the US that beget Trump in the first place, and they'll continue after he's gone. Those conflicts also have the potential to incite violence, danger and major conflict the way that Trump has. And people that are upset about one of those conflicts are often upset about more than one.
The general path is always the same: select a portion of society that feels disenfranchised, find "the others" to blame, De-humanize "the others", focus more on the differences than the commonalities, start shouting, violence. That cycle is pretty clear throughout history. If you're trying to prevent the Nazis again, everybody (Potential nazis included of course) needs to understand that path and how it can be avoided.

mathlete

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #53 on: January 11, 2021, 08:52:28 AM »
I don't know I feel like we're at the point where aggressively combating misinformation is seen as dehumanizing.

use2betrix

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #54 on: January 11, 2021, 08:56:35 AM »
I was a victim of BLM violence while I sat innocently at a restaurant in Charleston last year (broken windows, massive explosion mere feet from where I stood).

Personally, I have enough powerful, high capacity guns, that I am not concerned.. Even during the BLM issues I did not feel unsafe at home.

I also have a fully contained 17’ camping trailer that I could easily hit the road for weeks/months if needed. We just spent several weeks in it over Christmas.

maizefolk

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #55 on: January 11, 2021, 09:09:44 AM »
Myself and millions of others compromised on a more progressive policy agenda to unite behind the "unity and decency" candidate. Listen to Joe Biden's victory speech and weigh it against Trump's Jan 6th speech. Consider that he and his enablers have actively sought to disenfranchise tens of millions of people over the last two months while also completely dropping the ball on vaccine distribution as 10K-20K people a week die of COVID.

I fail to see how "everyone needs to be more empathetic" is the way out here. I agree that it is the pacification route. "Turning the temperature down" will get us through the next few weeks and allow us to focus on more fun things knowing that the country won't burn down. It will also embolden the more Trumpy right to continue trying to delegitimize elections results moving forward. Making peace so we can all watch the NFL playoffs for a couple of weeks is short sighted when I know these people are going to try to take my vote away at some point.

The way out is for anti-democracy people to stop being anti-democracy.

I and millions of others voted for Joe Biden in part because he was the unity and decency candidate, and his victory speech bore out that confidence.

I agree with you that the way out is for the anti-democracy people to stop being anti-democracy. However, in my experience the more people are convinced that "the other side" hates them and could never forgive them, the less likely they are to re-evaluate their current beliefs. Which makes sense when you think about it. If one side is going to hate you no matter what, it is extremely risky to start questioning beliefs that could lead to the other side hating you too.

I cannot force anyone to change their beliefs, but there are actions I can take in my personal and public life to either lower or raise the barriers to others choosing to do so as the evidence that their beliefs were wrong continues to accumulate.

mathlete

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #56 on: January 11, 2021, 09:18:47 AM »
Myself and millions of others compromised on a more progressive policy agenda to unite behind the "unity and decency" candidate. Listen to Joe Biden's victory speech and weigh it against Trump's Jan 6th speech. Consider that he and his enablers have actively sought to disenfranchise tens of millions of people over the last two months while also completely dropping the ball on vaccine distribution as 10K-20K people a week die of COVID.

I fail to see how "everyone needs to be more empathetic" is the way out here. I agree that it is the pacification route. "Turning the temperature down" will get us through the next few weeks and allow us to focus on more fun things knowing that the country won't burn down. It will also embolden the more Trumpy right to continue trying to delegitimize elections results moving forward. Making peace so we can all watch the NFL playoffs for a couple of weeks is short sighted when I know these people are going to try to take my vote away at some point.

The way out is for anti-democracy people to stop being anti-democracy.

I and millions of others voted for Joe Biden in part because he was the unity and decency candidate, and his victory speech bore out that confidence.

I agree with you that the way out is for the anti-democracy people to stop being anti-democracy. However, in my experience the more people are convinced that "the other side" hates them and could never forgive them, the less likely they are to re-evaluate their current beliefs. Which makes sense when you think about it. If one side is going to hate you no matter what, it is extremely risky to start questioning beliefs that could lead to the other side hating you too.

I cannot force anyone to change their beliefs, but there are actions I can take in my personal and public life to either lower or raise the barriers to others choosing to do so as the evidence that their beliefs were wrong continues to accumulate.

Jesus I wish that's where we were. That they wanted forgiveness. But we're 250 miles down the road from even admitting that Trump was a mistake, let alone thinking anything was done that requires forgiveness. This is why I'm against "we need to be more empathetic" right now. It's just a bandaid so that we can watch the superbowl together and forget about our problems.

The right incited a mob to beat a cop to death and over one hundred congresspeople to vote to throw out millions of legally cast votes. They failed this time, but the specter of impropriety will 10,000% be used to make it harder to vote in the next election. We haven't even begun to untangle the mess we're in.

maizefolk

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #57 on: January 11, 2021, 09:20:25 AM »
Jesus I wish that's where we were. That they wanted forgiveness. But we're 250 miles down the road from even admitting that Trump was a mistake, let alone thinking anything was done that requires forgiveness. This is why I'm against "we need to be more empathetic" right now. It's just a bandaid so that we can watch the superbowl together and forget about our problems.

What is your proposed solution to get the people we are discussing to change their political positions, mathlete?

Edit: And specifically what actions to you believe that you and I take to move towards achieve that solution?
« Last Edit: January 11, 2021, 09:24:18 AM by maizefolk »

mathlete

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #58 on: January 11, 2021, 09:24:14 AM »
The only tools I have to combat this are my education and fact-based reporting. This has been characterized by the President as stuff of, "The enemy of the people." Countless times. Including last Wednesday.

These people are completely lost in the woods right now and first and foremost, they need to get out and figure out why they were led astray. For my part, I've spent hours this past week writing and calling the congress people who I believe are knowingly leading them astray and imploring them to stop it.

If that qualifies as empathy, then maybe I am being empathetic. But I don't know.

maizefolk

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #59 on: January 11, 2021, 09:25:28 AM »
The only tools I have to combat this are my education and fact-based reporting. This has been characterized by the President as stuff of, "The enemy of the people." Countless times. Including last Wednesday.

These people are completely lost in the woods right now and first and foremost, they need to get out and figure out why they were led astray. For my part, I've spent hours this past week writing and calling the congress people who I believe are knowingly leading them astray and imploring them to stop it.

If that qualifies as empathy, then maybe I am being empathetic. But I don't know.

Okay, that sounds like a quite reasonable approach. Do you feel like anyone in this thread is telling you not to do that? Or saying that it isn't worth doing so?

DrinkCoffeeStackMoney

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #60 on: January 11, 2021, 09:31:18 AM »
The majority of my big and extended family are conservative Trump supporters and they have very vocally condemned what happened at the Capitol. So all MAGA's/conservatives/republicans can't be lumped into the same pool as the crazy bastards who incite violence.

With that being said, my wife and I have guns and are trained to use them, cash, plenty of food, etc.
We are as prepared as we can be for anything without being crazy about it. No one is going to overthrow this country at this time, especially a bunch of untrained (for the most part) wanna-be solder militia boys. If there were actually a civil war started a bunch of rednecks with AR-15's would be no match to our military or any military brought in as support, and that's a fact. So everyone preaching "give me liberty or give me death', death is what you would receive.
I have zero worries about these guys.

As far as our money; we're making no changes and staying the course. Even if something crazy did happen it won't last long and the market will come back as it always does.

Just my two cents.

mathlete

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #61 on: January 11, 2021, 09:31:43 AM »
The only tools I have to combat this are my education and fact-based reporting. This has been characterized by the President as stuff of, "The enemy of the people." Countless times. Including last Wednesday.

These people are completely lost in the woods right now and first and foremost, they need to get out and figure out why they were led astray. For my part, I've spent hours this past week writing and calling the congress people who I believe are knowingly leading them astray and imploring them to stop it.

If that qualifies as empathy, then maybe I am being empathetic. But I don't know.

Okay, that sounds like a quite reasonable approach. Do you feel like anyone in this thread is telling you not to do that? Or saying that it isn't worth doing so?

I feel like calls for "empathy on all sides" is pretty ambiguous solution that is more likely to lead to temporary pacification, with long term consequences being paid for mostly by people who aren't privileged enough to pursue FIRE.

maizefolk

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #62 on: January 11, 2021, 09:34:28 AM »
Okay, that sounds like a quite reasonable approach. Do you feel like anyone in this thread is telling you not to do that? Or saying that it isn't worth doing so?

I feel like calls for "empathy on all sides" is pretty ambiguous solution that is more likely to lead to temporary pacification, with long term consequences being paid for mostly by people who aren't privileged enough to pursue FIRE.

It would help me if you could point to a specific post or posts that you're referring to. One of mine? Someone elses?

Do you feel like calls for empathy and fact-based education are inherently in conflict with each other? I certainly don't, but I am interested to hear your take on it.

Rhinodad

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #63 on: January 11, 2021, 09:50:07 AM »
I find one of the dumbest statements is the "I'm going to unite the country." No, no you are not. You are going to try and pass your agenda, whether the other side agrees with you or not. If I think $15/hr minimum wage is a terrible policy, or agree with the wall, or think our corporate tax structure, or environmental standards are fine...how is he going to unite me? He's not, so I would wish all politicians would stop saying that non-sense, and those that vote for them wouldn't say such pablum. If you vote, you vote for the politician you mostly agree with, and you want the agenda they espoused,  passed. It's really that simple. You may have voted for them because you found them the most ELECTABLE, but not due to unity.

CodingHare

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #64 on: January 11, 2021, 09:54:28 AM »
Regarding investments: No change.  The stock market will be fine, as usual.

Regarding the country: I don't know.  We live in a solid blue state, so I can't help vote out dangerous disinformation (a word I hate, we already have a perfectly good word for spreading "disinformation", it's called LYING) spreading senators like Hawley and Cruz.  I will continue donating money to the DNC to unseat them and their like.  I think we need enough Democrats in the government to actually start passing agenda instead of sitting on bills ala McConnell.  Our only way forward is to make the lives of all American's better--no matter how much they scream about hating Obamacare (but they like their ACA plan.)

"Bipartisan government."  "Unity."  "Have empathy for the other side."  Sounds good, when are the Republicans going to start?  We scrapped the public option and passed Romney's healthcare nationally. We were called communists for it, and the other side ran on REPEAL AND REPLACE.  Replace with what?  They never told us.  Replace with nothing, it turned out.  And they couldn't even do that with a Republican majority.  When are the Republicans going to apologize for calling us radical socialist?  When are they going to commit to not smearing the Democrats with their "Leftist" agenda?

Remember when Republicans said that gay marriage would destroy the family and cause more child rape?  I do.  But I don't remember them coming out after it was passed to say, "Oh... that never happened... guess we were wrong about that and the Democrats were right."  That's pretty damn easy to verify as incorrect based on years of data since Obergefell v Hodges, what's the hold up?  Don't Republican's want unity and empathy?

Hey, do you remember when Republicans said, "Oh my gosh, an unarmed sleeping woman was murdered in her own home and her partner was jailed for trying to defend his home from plainclothes invaders?  They had the right to stand their ground, let's get justice for them!"  Oh wait, no, they continued trying to press charges against the survivor and protect Breonna Taylor's murderers.  But a couple of yahoos waving guns at people not even on their property? McCloskeys need to speak at the RNC!  Seems pretty empathetic of the Republicans huh? /s

Where in the middle should we meet these people?  They hate us.  They lie about anyone further left than Mitt Romney (and a little about him, too.)  They call us communists, socialists, radicals, and extremists no matter what policy we put out.  Here's my idea, how about the right meet us in the middle.  How about they promise to stop lying to the public, for a start.  How about they admit that they were wrong to lie about the election, providing fuel for Trump's rioters.  How about they debate legislation on its merits instead of calling its organizers unpatriotic communists.

Democrats have tried empathy.  It doesn't work.  Let's try consequences instead.

"Meet me in the middle," said the dishonest man. "Ok," said his friend, and took one step towards the dishonest man.  The dishonest man takes two steps backwards.  "Meet me in the middle."
« Last Edit: January 11, 2021, 09:58:27 AM by CodingHare »

jehovasfitness23

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #65 on: January 11, 2021, 09:57:00 AM »
Regarding investments: No change.  The stock market will be fine, as usual.

Regarding the country: I don't know.  We live in a solid blue state, so I can't help vote out dangerous disinformation (a word I hate, we already have a perfectly good word for spreading "disinformation", it's called LYING) spreading senators like Hawley and Cruz.  I will continue donating money to the DNC to unseat them and their like.  I think we need enough Democrats in the government to actually start passing agenda instead of sitting on bills ala McConnell.  Our only way forward is to make the lives of all American's better--no matter how much they scream about hating Obamacare (but they like their ACA plan.)

"Bipartisan government."  "Unity."  "Have empathy for the other side."  Sounds good, when are the Republicans going to start?  We scrapped the public option and passed Romney's healthcare nationally. We were called communists for it, and the other side ran on REPEAL AND REPLACE.  Replace with what?  They never told us.  Replace with nothing, it turned out.  And they couldn't even do that with a Republican majority.  When are the Republicans going to apologize for calling us radical socialist?  When are they going to commit to not smearing the Democrats with their "Leftist" agenda?

Remember when Republican's said that gay marriage would destroy the family and cause more child rape?  I do.  But I don't remember them coming out after it was passed to say, "Oh... that never happened... guess we were wrong about that and the Democrats were right."  That's pretty damn easy to verify as incorrect based on years of data since Obergefell v Hodges, what's the hold up?  Don't Republican's want unity and empathy?

Hey, do you remember when Republicans said, "Oh my gosh, an unarmed sleeping woman was murdered in her own home and her partner was jailed for trying to defend his home from plainclothes invaders?  They had the right to stand their ground, let's get justice for them!"  Oh wait, no, they continued trying to press charges against the survivor and protect Breonna Taylor's murderers.  But a couple of yahoos waving guns at people not even on their property? McCloskeys need to speak at the RNC!  Seems pretty empathetic of the Republicans huh? /s

Where in the middle should we meet these people?  They hate us.  They lie about anyone further left than Mitt Romney (and a little about him, too.)  They call us communists, socialists, radicals, and extremists no matter what policy we put out.  Here's my idea, how about the right meet us in the middle.  How about they promise to stop lying to the public, for a start.  How about they admit that they were wrong to lie about the election, providing fuel for Trump's rioters.  How about they debate legislation on its merits instead of calling its organizers unpatriotic communists.

Democrats have tried empathy.  It doesn't work.  Let's try consequences instead.

"Meet me in the middle," said the dishonest man. "Ok," said his friend, and took one step towards the dishonest man.  The dishonest man takes two steps backwards.  "Meet me in the middle."

Not sure this forum has a like button, but here's a like for your whole comment. Anything less is intellectually lazy or dishonest to call for otherwise.

mathlete

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #66 on: January 11, 2021, 10:00:44 AM »
Okay, that sounds like a quite reasonable approach. Do you feel like anyone in this thread is telling you not to do that? Or saying that it isn't worth doing so?

I feel like calls for "empathy on all sides" is pretty ambiguous solution that is more likely to lead to temporary pacification, with long term consequences being paid for mostly by people who aren't privileged enough to pursue FIRE.

It would help me if you could point to a specific post or posts that you're referring to. One of mine? Someone elses?

Do you feel like calls for empathy and fact-based education are inherently in conflict with each other? I certainly don't, but I am interested to hear your take on it.

Yourself and Paper Chaser seem to be poking in that direction. I'm not trying to call you guys out because I think you're both great and I appreciate the perspective.

But what does unity and empathy mean right now? In the national discussion, right now it means forgive and forget. I think that's a horrible idea. I think removing Trump and censuring the representatives who voted for disenfranchisement is a good start but I'm willing to entertain other consequences as long as they aren't, "no consequences."

Joe Biden is the defacto leader of the Democratic party. I see a lot of allusions to violence around BLM protests (93% of Summer protests were non violent, but that's neither here nor there). Joe Biden didn't incite violence. The violence happened as a result of civil unrest driven by bias in the justice system. Even so, destroying property and becoming violent is bad. You can google around and find countless statements of Biden condemning the violence and the rioting from the Summer. His policing reform platform is very explicitly not ACAB or defund the police. In fact, he calls for more police funding. Here's a good article on Biden's (and thus, the Democratic party's) plan to unify on the issue of policing and make progress.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/01/11/biden-police-reform/

Unlike violence at BLM protests, the violence at the capitol was very explicitly incited by a political party leader. He made one or two very impotent calls to end the rioting, but also called the rioters patriots and special people. (Contrast this with Colin Kaepernick, who is a "son of a bitch" who got run out of the NFL by the President for kneeling during the anthem.) He also spoke out of both sides of his mouth by repeating the lies that incited the violence in the first place and made excuses for the violence,

Quote
These are the things and events that happen when a sacred landslide election victory is so unceremoniously & viciously stripped away from great patriots who have been badly & unfairly treated for so long. Go home with love & peace. Remember this day forever!

And while Biden at least tries to thread the needle of supporting the need for police reform while condemning tangential violence that happens during protests, please note that Officer Sicknick was beaten to death by rioters incited by the president 5 days ago, and the President has yet to make a statement on it.

In the simplest terms, much of the country has lined up behind the approaches of one of these two men. I think it's a mistake to say that lack of empathy from those trying to adhere to the Biden approach even makes the shortlist of issues here.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2021, 10:08:09 AM by mathlete »

Kris

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #67 on: January 11, 2021, 10:10:42 AM »
Accountability first.

Then empathy.

Still waiting on #1.

mathlete

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #68 on: January 11, 2021, 10:28:42 AM »
I am not an unreasonable person. I expressly feel bad for the misguided people who stormed the capitol. I don't go around in my everyday life trying to scream at and shame Trump supporters.  I was terse with fattest_foot earlier, because that's my posting style. Maybe I should do better, but anyone who followed that conversation can see that the facts were clearly on my side. I'm not going to pretend that someone else's argument has equal merit when it's clear that I've outread them by a factor of ten on the issue.

My father is a Trump supporter and I have a good relationship with him. I have coworkers who are Trump supporters, including one who rather obnoxiously brings irrelevant Fox News talking points into almost every meeting, and yet I do my job and engage with them professionally.

My rough choices for president during the primary were, Warren-Sanders-Mayor Pete-Harris-Biden. Warren bombed. Part of it was sexism, but a lot of it was just plain bad campaigning. I sucked it up and backed Sanders who got C R U S H E D by Biden, whom I very enthusiastically voted for in November. So I'm more than willing to compromise on a lot of my progressive ideas.

I have a republican congressperson. And though I very strongly support raising taxes on the rich, protecting abortion rights, and guaranteeing healthcare for poor people, I have never once contacted his office about those things. Because those issues were on the ballot. I voted for the candidate who supported those things and I lost because my fellow voters disagreed with me. I accept that. So it would be unreasonable to call my rep and start expecting him to sing the praises of planned parenthood.

That said, I've contacted his office probably a dozen times over the past two years. Each time was about truth or democratic norms. Things we should all agree on.

But I can't compromise to the point where lies are truth and that trying to disenfranchise people is something a healthy democracy can look the other way on.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2021, 10:31:07 AM by mathlete »

maizefolk

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #69 on: January 11, 2021, 10:54:50 AM »
Yourself and Paper Chaser seem to be poking in that direction. I'm not trying to call you guys out because I think you're both great and I appreciate the perspective.

But what does unity and empathy mean right now? In the national discussion, right now it means forgive and forget. I think that's a horrible idea. I think removing Trump and censuring the representatives who voted for disenfranchisement is a good start but I'm willing to entertain other consequences as long as they aren't, "no consequences."

I disagree with you that empathy means forgive and forget for the perpetrators (both the ones who stormed congress and the congresspeople and president who encouraged them). I'm sad to read that my posts have made you view me as leaning in the direction of no consequences. If it helps, I can honestly state: the people who broke into congress should be arrested, given trials, convicted (which should be quite easy with the wealth of evidence they themselves collected, streamed, and posted) and sent to prison. The leaders in congress (people like Hawley and Cruz) should be expelled.

But at the same time, I am happy to read stories of people like those described up thread who took down Trump or MAGA flags in the wake of the capitol occupation, even knowing that they likely voted for Trump in '16 and '20 yes. I do intend to forgive and forget when it comes to voters who change their minds, even if we still disagree on genuine political issues, if we agree on the fundamental truth that the outcome of elections need to be honored in this country. I think the way Biden framed that in his victory speech was very effective.

But let's get back to your post:

Quote
And while Biden at least tries to thread the needle of supporting the need for police reform while condemning tangential violence that happens during protests, please note that Officer Sicknick was beaten to death by rioters incited by the president 5 days ago, and the President has yet to make a statement on it.

In the simplest terms, much of the country has lined up behind the approaches of one of these two men. I think it's a mistake to say that lack of empathy from those trying to adhere to the Biden approach even makes the shortlist of issues here.

Here I feel a bit like we are talking in circles. I am in complete agreement with you about what a bad president (and person) Trump is. I am in complete agreement with you that people who beat a police officer to death deserve to be in prison. But once we expand from the people who perpetrated these acts, and the leaders who encouraged these acts to the what, 80M people who still approve of Trump* we do need to wean many of them off their current, false, understanding of the world. We cannot send tens of millions of people to prison. Short of an actual civil war with people dying, the sole options I see are 1) reintegrate them into society 2) give in to their demands. I'm not willing to accept either an actual civil war, or living in the world Trump/Hawley/Cruz would create if allowed to continue unchecked. So persuading is the only option I see open to me. Do you see a 4th option? If so, what does it look like?

I agree with you that fact based education and fact based news reporting helps in working towards that goal.

What I don't see is how calling out what it appears to me that you see as an excessive focus on empathy rather than condemnation for these voters gets us closer to reducing that number. I have at least explained why I believe that it actually makes it harder for us to shrink their number over time. But even if I'm wrong and it doesn't help, I still don't understand how someone could believe that it would hurt.

*If I'm doing the math from opinion polling right. If you'd rather look at voters rather than the US population as a whole, maybe it's closer to 40M? The number who approve of storming the capital is perhaps 20 or 10 million using the same math and opinion polls, which is a frighteningly large number.

Paper Chaser

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #70 on: January 11, 2021, 10:56:39 AM »
Lots of angry posts focused on national level politics, who should be blamed, and how they should be punished. I get anger. But is that productive on a personal level? How does being angry about this thing help us prevent the next one, or the one that is actually the root of all of this? Sure, you can punish people, and I'm on board with that. But is being angry making your life better, or is it just affecting the way you see other Americans? How does that change the likelihood of some disenfranchised faction of society becoming militarized again in the future? Getting one half of the country to ram legislation or politicians through that the other half doesn't want hasn't worked at any point, and it isn't going to solve this. The real issue at the root of all of these conflicts is that neither side is trying to find common ground. We're trying to break "the other guy's" will. Guess what, if you go looking for enemies, you'll probably find them. But taking the time to learn a bit about your enemy makes them less likely to be your enemy in the first place.

What can you control, and what can you not control? I cannot control the number of people in Washington whose politics most closely resemble mine. All I can do is vote, and hope to get lucky for my direct representation. I cannot control what politicians do after they're voted in. All I can do is vote them out or vote to keep them in. I can focus on my own circle of influence. I can work to avoid the spreading of lies, and I can speak out against violence. I can try to actively spread the truth without preaching. I can run for local political office if I were so inclined. I can control how I view the people that I interact with every day, and I can work to avoid stereotyping them or viewing them as anything other than humans. I can be kind to them (or at least civil), regardless of our differences (whatever they may be). I can try to strengthen relationships that have gotten strained or gone absent in recent months due to lack of social outlets, constant exposure to negative news, and plenty of external stress. That's my plan. Control what I can control, and try to make my life better by being a decent person to those around me rather than an antagonist.

jehovasfitness23

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #71 on: January 11, 2021, 11:02:07 AM »
In the words of Josh Holmes, former chief of staff to Mitch McConnell: If you're not in a white hot rage over what happened by now you're not paying attention.

https://twitter.com/HolmesJosh/status/1348338328232464384

ericrugiero

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #72 on: January 11, 2021, 11:21:51 AM »
The scary thing right now is that there is such a large number of people on both sides who have such a level of righteous indignation they are willing to do things that they wouldn't normally do.  It's a mixture of "they started it" and "they are so evil that the ends justify the means". 

The right thinks that the left just stole an election by perpetrating mass voter fraud. 

The left thinks Trump is an evil racist Nazi who is willing to do anything to stay in power and his followers MIGHT be marginally better. 

Both sides are very disenfranchised with the other.  I don't think we will have civil war because it's to hard to line up the other side and be clear who "THEY" are long enough to fight.  But, we are reaching the point where some on both sides would be willing to pull the trigger if they knew who to target.  The current government is so corrupt that many don't have any faith in them to fix the issues. 

jehovasfitness23

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #73 on: January 11, 2021, 11:29:13 AM »
The scary thing right now is that there is such a large number of people on both sides who

stop with the both sides crap. full stop

maizefolk

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #74 on: January 11, 2021, 11:50:00 AM »
In the words of Josh Holmes, former chief of staff to Mitch McConnell: If you're not in a white hot rage over what happened by now you're not paying attention.

Did you ever read Dune? Weird book. I like some parts of it but not others. Anyway, in Dune one of the marks of a human being is the ability to restrain our instinctive reactions when we know at an intellectual level that our instictive reactions will produce outcomes we don't desire.

I assure you I am extremely angry about what happened on Wednesday. That anger just doesn't absolve me of the responsibility to act in ways that work towards the outcomes I desire in the world.

seattlecyclone

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #75 on: January 11, 2021, 12:01:58 PM »
Okay, that sounds like a quite reasonable approach. Do you feel like anyone in this thread is telling you not to do that? Or saying that it isn't worth doing so?

I feel like calls for "empathy on all sides" is pretty ambiguous solution that is more likely to lead to temporary pacification, with long term consequences being paid for mostly by people who aren't privileged enough to pursue FIRE.

It would help me if you could point to a specific post or posts that you're referring to. One of mine? Someone elses?

Do you feel like calls for empathy and fact-based education are inherently in conflict with each other? I certainly don't, but I am interested to hear your take on it.

I'm all for fact-based education and empathy and reintegration too. We need to be clear about who needs to do the work to reintegrate. Without that clarity, the assumption is that we all need to do work and meet in the middle somewhere. On some issues that is perfectly reasonable. On others it is not.

When one side says "accept the certified election results" and the other side says "reject the certified election results," the correct thing is not to compromise on "sometimes accept the certified election results." No. The people who have worked to overrule the voters need to come to the realization that their behavior is unacceptable and change. The onus is on them in this regard. If there's anything I can do to point them to a resource that will help them on that path I'm happy to do so, but I feel like at some point everyone has had ample opportunity to read about whether elections are a good thing or not and any of my efforts to explain this will be in vain.


maizefolk

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #77 on: January 11, 2021, 12:10:28 PM »
When one side says "accept the certified election results" and the other side says "reject the certified election results," the correct thing is not to compromise on "sometimes accept the certified election results." No. The people who have worked to overrule the voters need to come to the realization that their behavior is unacceptable and change. The onus is on them in this regard. If there's anything I can do to point them to a resource that will help them on that path I'm happy to do so, but I feel like at some point everyone has had ample opportunity to read about whether elections are a good thing or not and any of my efforts to explain this will be in vain.

This is a fair point, but I do want to clarify that empathy is not the same thing as compromise. Compromising is saying it's sometimes okay to reject the results of an election. Empathy is saying:

"The best way we can show respect for the voters who are upset is by telling them the truth. That's the burden. That's the duty of leadership. The truth is President-elect Biden won the election. President Trump lost. I've had that experience myself. it's no fun."

It is not compromising on the facts or the outcomes. It is simply acknowledging that it's no fun to lose, and that is can be comforting to cling to falsehoods. It doesn't tell voters who believe these things that they are bad people, simply that they are wrong.

I understand it can be satisfying to point out how in the wrong those voters are, and say things like "the onus is on them." In a fair world that would be true. But if the onus is on them and they don't take it, what outcome are we looking at? For me, the outcomes if the people who should be doing the work don't do it are bad enough that I'm willing to do more work than is really fair to make it easier and less scary for people to abandon false ideas.

CodingHare

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #78 on: January 11, 2021, 12:11:59 PM »
The scary thing right now is that there is such a large number of people on both sides who have such a level of righteous indignation they are willing to do things that they wouldn't normally do.  It's a mixture of "they started it" and "they are so evil that the ends justify the means". 

The right thinks that the left just stole an election by perpetrating mass voter fraud. 

The left thinks Trump is an evil racist Nazi who is willing to do anything to stay in power and his followers MIGHT be marginally better. 

Both sides are very disenfranchised with the other.  I don't think we will have civil war because it's to hard to line up the other side and be clear who "THEY" are long enough to fight.  But, we are reaching the point where some on both sides would be willing to pull the trigger if they knew who to target.  The current government is so corrupt that many don't have any faith in them to fix the issues.

Ah yes, like that time BLM and the women's marches stormed the Capital to out a candidate they didn't like... Oh wait, that was when the women's marchers peacefully knit pink hats to march and BLM has met with the national guard already pre deployed.

The right believes a lie based on liars lying to them, therefore they are encouraging people with guns to overthrow a democratic election based on no evidence.

The left believes the right is becoming overtly radicalized and violent based on... the right's own actions.  They are calling for the legal procedures to censure and respond to domestic terrorism and sedition to be enforced.

Totally the same, those leftists must need to back off on that "righteous indignation."  Why ever are those on the left pointing out the clear sequence of events that means the right started it?

This is a great example of the double standards I think the left as a whole is really tired of.  It's the equivalent of two kids, one breaks the family vase, and going to mom, "Well, sibling shouldn't have tattled on me, doesn't she share the blame?"  The "moderate" compromise outcome of punishing both kids for one's behavior is unfair.  It will not result in unity.  It will result in resentment at the uneven treatment.  It already has.  To use the Bible, this is equivalent to the story of slicing the baby in half to satisfy both mothers.  The real mom is going to be horrified at the compromise.

But as people here are saying, being angry alone doesn't produce outcomes.  Anger is useful when it motivates you to achieve outcomes.

So I will contact my representatives to ask them to impeach Trump.  I will donate to political causes I agree with.  I will engage in debate so long as it looks like the people I am talking to are willing to change their minds.  I will continue disengaging from people who use ad hominum attacks against me for my political view (no one in this thread, but IRL.)  I will continue voting in every election I can.  And I will keep pointing out hypocrisy when I see it, including both-sides-isms.

dreadmoose

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #79 on: January 11, 2021, 12:37:27 PM »
@maizefolk

I'm impressed with how you've tackled this thread.

I don't have much to add outside that kudos. Focussing on moving past the Us vs Them argument is a noble cause, and one I wish more people would try and tackle. The divisiveness of always identifying an Other to hate and blame seems lost on way too many people, and the admittedly harder steps it takes to empathize with "them" in any avenue should be applauded.

If anyone knows for sure they are 100% right about something then they should have a good footing to understand how frustrated the other side is when they think they're 100% right. The world works in shades of grey, not absolutes.

Caveat for those that need it: The attack on the capital was insane, wrong and unprecedented. I am Canadian so have less invested in the exact topic but know that from the outside lots of the world is lumping America into its own "Them" category, which includes everyone there... Seems a bit unfair no?


mathlete

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #80 on: January 11, 2021, 12:42:58 PM »
Lots of angry posts focused on national level politics, who should be blamed, and how they should be punished. I get anger. But is that productive on a personal level? How does being angry about this thing help us prevent the next one, or the one that is actually the root of all of this? Sure, you can punish people, and I'm on board with that. But is being angry making your life better, or is it just affecting the way you see other Americans? How does that change the likelihood of some disenfranchised faction of society becoming militarized again in the future? Getting one half of the country to ram legislation or politicians through that the other half doesn't want hasn't worked at any point, and it isn't going to solve this. The real issue at the root of all of these conflicts is that neither side is trying to find common ground. We're trying to break "the other guy's" will. Guess what, if you go looking for enemies, you'll probably find them. But taking the time to learn a bit about your enemy makes them less likely to be your enemy in the first place.

Anger, or more accurately, concern is useful because it motivates me to participate in electoral politics. I've made two calls to the offices of Republican officials just today trying to establish if we have common ground on the idea that people should be able to vote and have their votes counted.

That's a pretty basic thing but thus far, the answer appears to be "no", we don't have common ground on this. I'll keep trying, but my next step is to convince the rest of the electorate that around 50% of the Federal Republican caucus (and many state officials) are rabidly anti democracy and should not be considered for re-election.

Early on in this thread, some posters were stressing the, "unplug and tune it out" approach. A MMM style glorification of ignorance. MY first post was actually one that pushed back against that. Everyone is free to choose how they respond to stuff like this, but as I mentioned earlier, a stable and just democracy is not an immutable fact of nature. There is no law that says that general human welfare always gets better over time. It takes work. If one chooses to ignore major issues like this because it likely won't affect VTI or VGSAX all that much and change your FIRE date, that's one's prerogative. But I'll never be shy about saying that those who do that represent massive deadweight that must be carried by informed and engaged citizens.

Pigeon

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #81 on: January 11, 2021, 12:44:00 PM »
I'm not really doing anything other than contacting my elected officials.  I don't believe guns lead anywhere positive, so I'm not arming myself to the teeth.  I'm not changing my investment strategy.  I have plenty of food in the house, but I'm not going all prepper any time soon.

I'm done with believing people who support Trump are good people.  They aren't.  I have one or two in my family and have come to the point where I don't think anyone who supports him is a good person, whether or not I happen to love the person in question.  We have already engaged in enough political conversation where I know they will never recognize the systemic racism and inequality that exists in this country.  We exchange polite, occasional pleasantries via text or email, and that's as much contact as I can stand, because they make me sick to my stomach.  In my case, the Trump lovers aren't poor, disadvantaged or uneducated.  They aren't even the type to have participated in the insurrection themselves.  But we're done as far as I'm concerned.  I'm not interested in discussing what they think about it because I don't want to hear the "both side" crap again.

Re all the people mentioning neighbors taking down Trump signs, call me cynical.  I think they are just laying low for now.  I don't believe for a minute they've learned a thing or are really taking the armed insurrection to heart.  Sure, it's probably a little embarrassing for the moment, but they'll be shuffling right back in line behind Ted Cruz or whatever viper takes Trump's place.

alcon835

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #82 on: January 11, 2021, 12:49:36 PM »
@
The scary thing right now is that there is such a large number of people on both sides who have such a level of righteous indignation they are willing to do things that they wouldn't normally do.  It's a mixture of "they started it" and "they are so evil that the ends justify the means". 

The right thinks that the left just stole an election by perpetrating mass voter fraud. 

The left thinks Trump is an evil racist Nazi who is willing to do anything to stay in power and his followers MIGHT be marginally better. 

Both sides are very disenfranchised with the other.  I don't think we will have civil war because it's to hard to line up the other side and be clear who "THEY" are long enough to fight.  But, we are reaching the point where some on both sides would be willing to pull the trigger if they knew who to target.  The current government is so corrupt that many don't have any faith in them to fix the issues.

Ah yes, like that time BLM and the women's marches stormed the Capital to out a candidate they didn't like... Oh wait, that was when the women's marchers peacefully knit pink hats to march and BLM has met with the national guard already pre deployed.

The right believes a lie based on liars lying to them, therefore they are encouraging people with guns to overthrow a democratic election based on no evidence.

The left believes the right is becoming overtly radicalized and violent based on... the right's own actions.  They are calling for the legal procedures to censure and respond to domestic terrorism and sedition to be enforced.

Totally the same, those leftists must need to back off on that "righteous indignation."  Why ever are those on the left pointing out the clear sequence of events that means the right started it?

This is a great example of the double standards I think the left as a whole is really tired of.  It's the equivalent of two kids, one breaks the family vase, and going to mom, "Well, sibling shouldn't have tattled on me, doesn't she share the blame?"  The "moderate" compromise outcome of punishing both kids for one's behavior is unfair.  It will not result in unity.  It will result in resentment at the uneven treatment.  It already has.  To use the Bible, this is equivalent to the story of slicing the baby in half to satisfy both mothers.  The real mom is going to be horrified at the compromise.

But as people here are saying, being angry alone doesn't produce outcomes.  Anger is useful when it motivates you to achieve outcomes.

So I will contact my representatives to ask them to impeach Trump.  I will donate to political causes I agree with.  I will engage in debate so long as it looks like the people I am talking to are willing to change their minds.  I will continue disengaging from people who use ad hominum attacks against me for my political view (no one in this thread, but IRL.)  I will continue voting in every election I can.  And I will keep pointing out hypocrisy when I see it, including both-sides-isms.

Careful with revisionist history. Kenosha and Minneapolis were literally burned down. Cities all over the US had businesses broken into, robbed, and destroyed.

Yes, I am clear on the difference between the BLM protests and the BLM riots, but to say the left has been completely peaceful over the last 12 months while the right has been violent and destructive is just wrong. The destruction and rioting was promoted by people who are currently condemning the riots on the right.

The President should absolutely be condemned, impeached, and prosecuted. The crazies who attacked Congress to stop the counts should, 100% be condemned and prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Everything done last week was terrible and should be responded to with the full force of the law. But taking action against and agreeing on the horrors on the right does not mean the horrors on the left are non-existent.

kite

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #83 on: January 11, 2021, 01:02:03 PM »
I'm still trying to avoid catching or inadvertently spreading Covid.  There were 4000 other people who died on Wednesday from the virus. That's absolutely the bigger threat to me by every metric.
I worked in 1 WTC twenty years ago and was on my way into the building when a bunch of terrorists, angry with the way things were going in my country, killed some of my colleagues and friends. I saw the planes, the bodies of my coworkers, and witnessed the buildings collapse with my own eyes. Live, in person. Not on television.  It's something of a random fluke that I wasn't already inside and doomed to die like so many people I knew. It sticks with me.  In the years since, I've learned was that there is no purpose to sitting and viewing it all on-screen, over and over, endlessly debating and fomenting anger at those responsible or at those who share similar viewpoints with those responsible.
The events of Wednesday aren't unprecedented.  Violent acts of terrorism have happened before.  And even if that mob had succeeded in the most devastating of their plans, the certification of the electoral votes would still have happened.  Terrorism never achieves support for the terrorists' objectives.  It gets near universal condemnation and a backlash. 
America is not on the precipice.  We've just had an election. The people have spoken and the will of the people is being carried out. 
Wear your mask. Keep your distance. Get your vaccines.
 

Kris

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #84 on: January 11, 2021, 01:22:09 PM »
@
The scary thing right now is that there is such a large number of people on both sides who have such a level of righteous indignation they are willing to do things that they wouldn't normally do.  It's a mixture of "they started it" and "they are so evil that the ends justify the means". 

The right thinks that the left just stole an election by perpetrating mass voter fraud. 

The left thinks Trump is an evil racist Nazi who is willing to do anything to stay in power and his followers MIGHT be marginally better. 

Both sides are very disenfranchised with the other.  I don't think we will have civil war because it's to hard to line up the other side and be clear who "THEY" are long enough to fight.  But, we are reaching the point where some on both sides would be willing to pull the trigger if they knew who to target.  The current government is so corrupt that many don't have any faith in them to fix the issues.

Ah yes, like that time BLM and the women's marches stormed the Capital to out a candidate they didn't like... Oh wait, that was when the women's marchers peacefully knit pink hats to march and BLM has met with the national guard already pre deployed.

The right believes a lie based on liars lying to them, therefore they are encouraging people with guns to overthrow a democratic election based on no evidence.

The left believes the right is becoming overtly radicalized and violent based on... the right's own actions.  They are calling for the legal procedures to censure and respond to domestic terrorism and sedition to be enforced.

Totally the same, those leftists must need to back off on that "righteous indignation."  Why ever are those on the left pointing out the clear sequence of events that means the right started it?

This is a great example of the double standards I think the left as a whole is really tired of.  It's the equivalent of two kids, one breaks the family vase, and going to mom, "Well, sibling shouldn't have tattled on me, doesn't she share the blame?"  The "moderate" compromise outcome of punishing both kids for one's behavior is unfair.  It will not result in unity.  It will result in resentment at the uneven treatment.  It already has.  To use the Bible, this is equivalent to the story of slicing the baby in half to satisfy both mothers.  The real mom is going to be horrified at the compromise.

But as people here are saying, being angry alone doesn't produce outcomes.  Anger is useful when it motivates you to achieve outcomes.

So I will contact my representatives to ask them to impeach Trump.  I will donate to political causes I agree with.  I will engage in debate so long as it looks like the people I am talking to are willing to change their minds.  I will continue disengaging from people who use ad hominum attacks against me for my political view (no one in this thread, but IRL.)  I will continue voting in every election I can.  And I will keep pointing out hypocrisy when I see it, including both-sides-isms.

Careful with revisionist history. Kenosha and Minneapolis were literally burned down.

As someone who lives in Minneapolis, I think you might need a refresher on the definition of “literally.”

Also, much of the destruction in those riots was fomented by alt-right people.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/07/29/umbrella-man-white-supremacist-minneapolis/?fbclid=IwAR09ARP4H2tP7q9gYa-2JVJ9GxSiVj2n3XbdMjjrUiqpFhXfUj-4rAj06rY

https://www.wsls.com/news/virginia/2020/07/27/police-richmond-riots-instigated-by-white-supremacists-disguised-as-black-lives-matter/?fbclid=IwAR2IsY36sl27EuXETyvDsST7-weSOVWW4P-PbXP88_hYSl1AohVmf06xpqM

https://thehill.com/homenews/news/522509-feds-say-far-right-group-coordinated-attack-on-minneapolis-police-precinct

mathlete

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #85 on: January 11, 2021, 01:31:16 PM »
Revisionist history, huh?

President Elect Joe Biden condemns rioting;

Quote
There’s no place for violence, no place for looting or destroying property or burning churches or destroying businesses […] we need to distinguish between legitimate peaceful protest and opportunistic violent destruction

VP Elect Kamala Harris condemns rioting;

Quote
It’s no wonder people are taking to the streets and I support them. We must always defend peaceful protest and peaceful protestors. We should not confuse them with those looting and committing acts of violence, including the shooter who was arrested for murder. And make no mistake, we will not let these vigilantes and extremists derail the path to justice.

Rep Ilhan Omar of Minneapolis condemns arson;

Quote
In Minneapolis, we have marched, we have protested, we have organized. And when we see people setting our buildings and our businesses ablaze, we know those are not people who are interested in protecting black lives. They might say they care about black lives, but they’re not interested in protecting black lives, because when you set a fire, you risk -- you risk the community that you are saying you are standing out for.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi condemns riots and calls for prosecution;

Quote
We support peaceful demonstrations. We participate in them. They are part of the essence of our democracy. That does not include looting, starting fires, or rioting. They should be prosecuted. That is lawlessness.

Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer introduced a resolution during the BLM protests that condemned the horrific way in which the BLM protests were handled across the country, where peaceful protestors were further antagonized by police, but also stated that "violence and looting are unlawful, unacceptable and contrary to the 7 purpose of peaceful protests." It's neither here nor there, but McConnell blocked this resolution.

Those are the four most prominent leaders in the Democratic party + the rep from Minneapolis, all condemning rioting. But here's the major difference.

The violence over the summer was sparked by the confluence of three things;

1.) The empirically verifiable fact that persons of color are treated lesser by the justice system
2.) The lived experience of millions of black americans which cosigns item #1
3.) Horrific video footage of police slowly killing an emotionally distraught man over an alleged petty crime while he begs for his life and cries out for his dead mother

At no point did any prominent member of Democratic leadership or even BLM leadership say, "We need to smash windows and burn buildings if we're ever going to get equitable justice."

Conversely

The grievances that led pro trump activists to storm and vandalize the capital, mortally threaten elected officials, trample one of their own to death, and beat an officer to death had

no basis in reality and were completely made of whole cloth by the defacto leader of the Republican party, President Donald J. Trump.

These lies were egged on and cosigned by hundreds of elected Republican officials. The morning of the event, the President told his people that they had to fight or else they'd lose their country. The President's lawyer talked of trial by combat. This is not unexpected either. Fueled by the crazy rhetoric of the president, a Militia group was recently busted by the FBI for plotting to kidnap Gretchen Whitmer. These types of reactions to his rhetoric have been a known quantity for a while.

This is why I have almost no patience for accusations of both-sides or boilerplate calls for unity or empathy or whatever from people who clearly done a fraction of the reading and research on this stuff that I have. If someone wants to act like they're above it all to avoid critical thinking, they're welcome to do that. But I'll push back every time.

joe189man

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #86 on: January 11, 2021, 01:37:59 PM »
to the OP's question, i wasn't going to do much of anything but, after reading this post i may do a little prepping now.

i think my suburbia area should be insulated from most/any action, unless armed folks were standing in front of grocery stores or going door to door questioning allegiances.

stocking up with necessary items to get through the next month or so might be prudent, maybe withdraw some cash, no changes to investments

chemistk

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #87 on: January 11, 2021, 01:38:40 PM »
This is a wonderful answer:

I'm still trying to avoid catching or inadvertently spreading Covid.  There were 4000 other people who died on Wednesday from the virus. That's absolutely the bigger threat to me by every metric.
I worked in 1 WTC twenty years ago and was on my way into the building when a bunch of terrorists, angry with the way things were going in my country, killed some of my colleagues and friends. I saw the planes, the bodies of my coworkers, and witnessed the buildings collapse with my own eyes. Live, in person. Not on television.  It's something of a random fluke that I wasn't already inside and doomed to die like so many people I knew. It sticks with me.  In the years since, I've learned was that there is no purpose to sitting and viewing it all on-screen, over and over, endlessly debating and fomenting anger at those responsible or at those who share similar viewpoints with those responsible.
The events of Wednesday aren't unprecedented.  Violent acts of terrorism have happened before.  And even if that mob had succeeded in the most devastating of their plans, the certification of the electoral votes would still have happened.  Terrorism never achieves support for the terrorists' objectives.  It gets near universal condemnation and a backlash. 
America is not on the precipice.  We've just had an election. The people have spoken and the will of the people is being carried out. 
Wear your mask. Keep your distance. Get your vaccines.
 

I'm so sorry you had to witness that, kite. Thank you for sharing this.

-----

I'm doing nothing. Nothing, except helping my kids understand what's going on around them.

Freedom, democracy, and the betterment of society absolutely aren't things that will materialize out of thin air, but I'm still doing 'nothing'.

Most of my family is Republican and many still believe in the ideology of the Trump movement. Not the "burn antifa" movement (or however you choose to characterize it), but more toward the "Drain the Swamp" approach that he took earlier in his first campaign and first year of his term.

I won't burn bridges with them, nor coworkers who hold the same views, nor friends. I won't sabotage the entire network of relationships in my life over something that will eventually fade and heal. I don't engage, I don't argue, I don't refute. I actively deflect, play Devil's advocate, shed doubt on dubious claims, and poke holes in arguments where holes can be poked.

Otherwise, I'm raising my kids. I'm working. We're looking to buy a house. We're avoiding Covid. Life moves on for us. 


jehovasfitness23

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #88 on: January 11, 2021, 01:47:31 PM »
This is a wonderful answer:

I'm still trying to avoid catching or inadvertently spreading Covid.  There were 4000 other people who died on Wednesday from the virus. That's absolutely the bigger threat to me by every metric.
I worked in 1 WTC twenty years ago and was on my way into the building when a bunch of terrorists, angry with the way things were going in my country, killed some of my colleagues and friends. I saw the planes, the bodies of my coworkers, and witnessed the buildings collapse with my own eyes. Live, in person. Not on television.  It's something of a random fluke that I wasn't already inside and doomed to die like so many people I knew. It sticks with me.  In the years since, I've learned was that there is no purpose to sitting and viewing it all on-screen, over and over, endlessly debating and fomenting anger at those responsible or at those who share similar viewpoints with those responsible.
The events of Wednesday aren't unprecedented.  Violent acts of terrorism have happened before.  And even if that mob had succeeded in the most devastating of their plans, the certification of the electoral votes would still have happened.  Terrorism never achieves support for the terrorists' objectives.  It gets near universal condemnation and a backlash. 
America is not on the precipice.  We've just had an election. The people have spoken and the will of the people is being carried out. 
Wear your mask. Keep your distance. Get your vaccines.
 

I'm so sorry you had to witness that, kite. Thank you for sharing this.

-----

I'm doing nothing. Nothing, except helping my kids understand what's going on around them.

Freedom, democracy, and the betterment of society absolutely aren't things that will materialize out of thin air, but I'm still doing 'nothing'.

Most of my family is Republican and many still believe in the ideology of the Trump movement. Not the "burn antifa" movement (or however you choose to characterize it), but more toward the "Drain the Swamp" approach that he took earlier in his first campaign and first year of his term.

I won't burn bridges with them, nor coworkers who hold the same views, nor friends. I won't sabotage the entire network of relationships in my life over something that will eventually fade and heal. I don't engage, I don't argue, I don't refute. I actively deflect, play Devil's advocate, shed doubt on dubious claims, and poke holes in arguments where holes can be poked.

Otherwise, I'm raising my kids. I'm working. We're looking to buy a house. We're avoiding Covid. Life moves on for us.

I asked this question to my therapist months ago, "what's the line? when people are rounded up into box cars?"

extreme but it poses a question, where's the line where people cut ties? For me it was Weds 6th after years of struggling to find that line.

FIRE Artist

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #89 on: January 11, 2021, 01:48:41 PM »
I am Canadian, so have no dog in this race, but what I really, really hope for my American friends is that they stay away from all government buildings and really any public place people congregate for the next year, at least. 

Sure, there will be right wing protests and probably some riots running up to the inauguration, but those things are easy to choose to avoid.  What I am worried about for my friends is an uptick in domestic terrorism - more bombings, more lone wolf snipers, that kind of shit that angry white men get up to at the best of times but will likely become far more prevalent in the coming year. 

Michael in ABQ

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #90 on: January 11, 2021, 02:06:43 PM »
Trying to ignore the news and social media for the next couple of weeks.

I have zero control over any of this and so I don't plan on wasting any of my time or mental energy on it.

dignam

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #91 on: January 11, 2021, 02:25:01 PM »
Well, they started boarding up the first floor windows on our state capitol building today.

kenmoremmm

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #92 on: January 11, 2021, 03:46:59 PM »
my 'less than 1 year' plan is to immigrate to canada. i've decided long ago that my home country is not a place that i actually support on the whole. hoping we can make it out before the SHTF, bigly.

the entirety of my family is dialed into the conspiracy theories and trump worship. queue up: HRC, soros, gates, hunter biden, etc.  for example, did you know that it was the libs' fault for the capitol building riots last week (poor trump is the victim).

fortunately, after years of trying to convince my wife that we need to leave, this year really brought home the reality that the US is fucked. she's pretty heartbroken about accepting that realization; i have long made my peace. for me, it really started with sandy hook.

Sid Hoffman

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #93 on: January 11, 2021, 03:55:02 PM »
Ahh yes, we should be friendly to traitors of this country and bargain with the terrorists.

Did you call the people who drove the police out of a neighborhood in Seattle for three weeks to create the CHAZ/CHOP traitors and terrorists as well? There were killings there too and yet the traitors and terrorists still would not allow police to return or investigate, even days after a young boy was shot to death. Please answer, it will tell us if you truly care about terrorists or if you're just political posturing on the internet. There's radical nutjobs that have driven keepers of law and order out of all kinds of places before. If you only call them traitors and terrorists when you disagree with them and call them freedom fighters when you agree with them, then you're not truly in favor of equality and law and order.

To me, all breakdown of law and order is bad. It's bad when its leftists in Seattle and bad with its rightists in D.C. It's all bad because the breakdown of law and order is bad in a nation like the USA which is supposed to be trying for equality and the rule of law. Not mob rule and advancement of whoever's got the biggest show of power.

Cranky

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #94 on: January 11, 2021, 03:55:12 PM »
Well, they started boarding up the first floor windows on our state capitol building today.

I am guessing that that will be all state capitals in the next few days.

I feel - stuff might happen, but probably won’t affect me directly, but is extremely concerning.

Sometimes there is no middle place to work towards, and honestly, it’s not clear to me what terrible things the right wing people think might happen, so I dunno how we can compromise or reassure them about.

jehovasfitness23

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #95 on: January 11, 2021, 04:19:07 PM »
Ahh yes, we should be friendly to traitors of this country and bargain with the terrorists.

Did you call the people who drove the police out of a neighborhood in Seattle for three weeks to create the CHAZ/CHOP traitors and terrorists as well? There were killings there too and yet the traitors and terrorists still would not allow police to return or investigate, even days after a young boy was shot to death. Please answer, it will tell us if you truly care about terrorists or if you're just political posturing on the internet. There's radical nutjobs that have driven keepers of law and order out of all kinds of places before. If you only call them traitors and terrorists when you disagree with them and call them freedom fighters when you agree with them, then you're not truly in favor of equality and law and order.

To me, all breakdown of law and order is bad. It's bad when its leftists in Seattle and bad with its rightists in D.C. It's all bad because the breakdown of law and order is bad in a nation like the USA which is supposed to be trying for equality and the rule of law. Not mob rule and advancement of whoever's got the biggest show of power.

false equivalency is false

CodingHare

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #96 on: January 11, 2021, 04:31:52 PM »
Ahh yes, we should be friendly to traitors of this country and bargain with the terrorists.

Did you call the people who drove the police out of a neighborhood in Seattle for three weeks to create the CHAZ/CHOP traitors and terrorists as well? There were killings there too and yet the traitors and terrorists still would not allow police to return or investigate, even days after a young boy was shot to death. Please answer, it will tell us if you truly care about terrorists or if you're just political posturing on the internet. There's radical nutjobs that have driven keepers of law and order out of all kinds of places before. If you only call them traitors and terrorists when you disagree with them and call them freedom fighters when you agree with them, then you're not truly in favor of equality and law and order.

To me, all breakdown of law and order is bad. It's bad when its leftists in Seattle and bad with its rightists in D.C. It's all bad because the breakdown of law and order is bad in a nation like the USA which is supposed to be trying for equality and the rule of law. Not mob rule and advancement of whoever's got the biggest show of power.

All breakdown of law and order is bad, but not equally bad.  I live in Seattle, I shook my head when CHAZ went up and figured it would end up being a distraction from the main focus of the protests.  And I was right, it was a stupid idea that lead to several shootings and deaths.  The shootings were all unconnected, with multiple motives (some were black people being shot by racists, as I recall.)  That's a far cry from a terrorist attack--violence aimed at causing a desired political outcome.  So while I condemn the violence (certainly not calling any shooters freedom fighters), I find this to be a false equivalency.  I truly care about terrorists. But living in Kirkland, Wa with friends in Green Lake and surrounding areas?  CHAZ wasn't terrorism.  I'm glad its gone, it shouldn't have existed, I'm glad the shooters were arrested.  But not terrorism.

Also the BLM protests in Seattle were to raise awareness of the racist policing we have here, inform voters, and propose policy for lawmakers.  Last I checked, the DC Riot was to throw away the votes of millions of people.  So again, one protest's stated goals were peaceful change, the other was "Hang Mike Pence" and "Overthrow the election."  Not equivalent, so again I won't call BLM protestors "traitors and terrorists."

Note: I said I lived in both Seattle and Kirkland, to clarify, I lived in Kirkland at the time of the protest.  We have a bad habit of calling anything within an hours driving distance Seattle around here. Just thought I'd explain that inconsistency.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2021, 05:37:59 PM by CodingHare »

mathlete

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #97 on: January 11, 2021, 04:45:24 PM »
I don't live in Seattle and CHAZ to me seemed very much like local issue that got nationalized. I don't know the whole story, but the CHAZ people seem kinda sucky to me. I agree with CodingHare that they seemed more of a distraction than anything.

If the CHAZ was the result of months of lies sowed by the President and enabled by over one hundred members of Congress, I'd feel much different. As it is, I saw the story as local dipshits being dipshits. I didn't see a national movement around it. I didn't see it happening all around the country. And I didn't see any leaders of prominence supporting it.

So I don't see how this is relevant.

MoseyingAlong

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #98 on: January 11, 2021, 04:53:01 PM »

..... a terrorist attack--violence aimed at causing a desired political outcome...

Also the BLM protests in Seattle were to raise awareness of the racist policing we have here, inform voters, and propose policy for lawmakers.... 
 I won't call BLM protestors "traitors and terrorists."

@CodingHare Thanks for your post. It helped explain some of what I've thought of as a disconnect.
Would you expand on this?
 
Are you saying the BLM protests were "aimed at causing a desired political outcome" but were not planned to be violent and that is why you won't call them terrorists?

That makes sense to me but then I struggle with thinking that some (a minuscule minority maybe) of the BLM protestors were planning violence to ensure attention was paid. So maybe a few were terrorists?

I know quite a truck drivers were afraid to drive thru big cities for fear of the violence taking place. Do you distinguish that violence as a side effect, not an intention?

I understand if you don't want to get into it here but your post is enlightening.

Sid Hoffman

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #99 on: January 11, 2021, 04:59:14 PM »
I guess I just see the breakdown of law & order as a bad thing, regardless of how it happens. After Minneapolis cops murdered George Floyd we had protests in something like 100+ cities but only in a few of them did we see law & order truly break down. In those places (the CHAZ is an example) it is very much comparable to the nutjobs that managed to get a breakdown of law & order in the capital as well.

It's not going to last long though. Joe Biden has made it clear that although he's seeking healing and an advancement of progressive ideals, he's absolutely a president of law & order. Look at the mayor of Portland. After literally having rioters drive him out of his own home, he got re-elected on the promise that he'll take a tougher stand against rioters than his opponent and that's what we've seen in Portland now. The pendulum swings. It swung hard against law & order this summer and we're going to see it swing back hard towards law & order under Biden. There will be peace because it's the only way to move forward.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!