Am I just being a jerk?

[tfk9164]

I posted several months ago regarding financial independence in a relationship, yet I'm still in an uneasy pickle.  I'm of the mind that each person should be able to 'pay their way', unless there are particular circumstances, such as one partner is sick or in school or the desire to be a SAHP.  As a healthy adult with grown children, I don't feel like any of those apply to me.

I quit a job and moved my life to be with my SO in a place I didn't realize I would dislike so much.  Like a dum-dum I let love overpower my judgement.  So here's the deal...I'm still grossly underpaid and sadly, because I have so much old debt (dead-beat ex husband who owes me tens of thousands and just keeps evading the law)/student loan debt (yes, yes, I know...but it's done so I can't change it now), my expenses are high.  I have not been without work since I've been here, but my salary only covers my debt and about $50 of savings a month.  Seriously.

My SO doesn't think this is a problem.  However, as I literally have no discretionary money, I feel trapped.  For instance, I have kids living in another state.  I don't have money to see them.  If I were to have an emergency, like a car repair, I don't have the money.  I would have to ask my SO for money.

For me, that is the problem.  I don't want to have to ask for money to see my kid, buy underwear, buy a mother's day gift for my mom.  I'm having difficulty feeling like the place I'm living is my home, but I don't have the money to make changes, and I don't want to have to ask for money to make changes, because, in the end, then the SO really decides whether or not I can make changes.

So I feel trapped. And I don't like it here anyway.  But my SO really wants me here and agrees we can move...in a couple of years.  Frankly, I don't know if I can hold out that long.

I look at the situation and think that this is a no-brainer and I need to leave to be able to support myself and feel like an independent person.  But I wonder if I'm a jerk for leaving a person who loves me in order to feel like I'm 'in control'

I am MORE THAN HAPPY to go somewhere and live a Mustachian life if it means I feel good about myself at the end of the day and have a secure old age.  Thanks to all for reading this!

[Optimiser]

Are you able to find another job in the area you live in that pays better? Why do you think moving would improve your financial situation?

[StockBeard]

What I read no-so-between the lines is that you are considering a divorce (or leaving your SO, not sure if you guys are married) to get your independence back. It sounds to me like this person is not really your "SO" if you are not happy with a situation where he pays for his share accordingly to the amount you both make.

The happy couples I know don't care that much about who makes what, they care more about who spends what and if it is justified for the couple. In your case, it sounds all your expenses are justified, and to me it would make sense that your SO gives you additional money to cover for your personal expenses (including gifts, travels, whatever you both feel is fair). If you hate the idea of "pocket money", then maybe you can agree on a deal such as a 0% interest loan from him, until you get out of debt and are able to repay him.

To me it makes sense that you want to "pull your own weight" in your relationship, but right now you're just in a geographical/financial position that doesn't allow it. To me it's equivalent to the examples you mentioned as "justified" (e.g. being sick). It's just another good reason IMO, and if it's because of debt it will not last forever. Because of that to me it would feel normal that your SO financially helps, for the time being.

With that being said, it sounds to me that you value your independence more than your relationship with this person at this point (maybe that wasn't the case when you moved), and at the risk of sounding bold, it sounds to me like you have already made your decision. In particular if there are no kids in the picture.

[MsPeacock]

I don't think being able to visit your children or replace underwear is about control.

Moves for relationships are hard - many times so when there is great financial disparity.

What does your honey have to say to you about the situation? I would say as you describe it this is one of those exceptional circumstances where an adult may require financial assistance. Think of it like child birth. Being in this geographical location is a mutual project, not just your project. You would not even be there if it wasn't for SO.

[tfk9164]

The drag is that I can't find a job that pays much more than I'm making now...trust me, I spend HOURS looking to find something that will cover all my debt and some discretionary money.  I get to the point where I think if I'm working two jobs (which I've done in the past without problem, but I was also single), and I'm never home, and I'm in a place I really don't like...well, what's the point of being here?  That's really the feeling behind moving

[Dicey]

Tone can be so hard to convey on the internet. Please read these questions knowing they are being asked with gentle compassion and without judgement.

How long have you been with your SO?
What were your hopes when you moved?
What was promised?
Were you happy with your old life?
What do you miss most about it?
Could you pick off where you left off in the old location if you chose to go back?
How much have you discussed these things with SO?
Are you afraid for your own mental health or personal safety?

Pulling up stakes can be terribly difficult.  It's important to know if your malaise stems from the process or the person or the new job situation.

[Zikoris]

I looked through all your posts, and I can't seem to find any numbers. I would be very interested in where your money's going, since in the last thread it seemed like you didn't have any housing or childcare expenses, and had a full time job. Even a low paying job should give you quite a bit of leeway in those circumstances.

I share your opinion that both parties should pay their own way in a relationship, 50/50. If that's a principle you strongly believe in, and want to stick with, you basically have three options for your situation: find a way to increase your income, find a way to reduce your spending, or just continue being broke and unhappy. You can't do anything without numbers though, so start there. Monthly income, and a detailed breakdown of every penny spent.

[joonifloofeefloo]

I don't hear any jerkishness.

I understand the desire for financial independence; I'm very similar. However, I think my getting over this would be one of the most helpful things for a future relationship. When a friend was struggling with her dependence on a partner's moola, despite the partner's sheer joy in sharing it, I urged her to examine this. Independence to the point that we'd leave a Loving Beloved seems unhealthy to me.

Many partners are super happy to cover both people's needs, if they have an abundance, know they are loved for who they are, are supported in other ways, etc.

The money partnership that makes most sense to me is the one in which expenses are split proportionate to earnings. Or the one that wants the fancy house or fancy trips can pay for those, with the other pitching in what she would choose outside of the relationship.

Lots of different ways to do this that are healthy.

I can also understand you not wanting to ask a partner for money as a need arises. I would hate that! But can you two work something out, like he just transfers a couple hundred bucks into your account each month for you to do whatever with? If he commented on how you spent it -e.g., complained about you visiting your kids- I'd be outta there, though.

But the very first thing I'd do is reduce the debt payment amounts. That lets you retain your independence, while giving you some cash to spend. Is that a possibility? When you have higher income -even if that's after you two move in a couple of years- you can put the difference into increased debt payments. A person has to have SOME money for regular life!

I think great love and partnership is much harder to find than money. With enough $ to survive, I'd hang on to the love.

[GrumpyPenguin]

I don't have anything to add to what the others have said, just wanted to say I don't think you're being a jerk.  That's a hard situation and I don't think there's one right answer.

[Villanelle]

I too would absolutely hate having to ask for money for those things.  It seems to me like you and your SO should set up finances so that you don't have to ask.  All money into a joint account, then each person gets a monthly allotment for personal things, for example. 

I quit my job in order to move overseas with DH.  I've been either not employed or minimally part time employed since 2010.  Never once have I felt I was "asking" for money from him or spending his money.  he acknowledged the sacrifices I made, and the fact that working at all, much less working at anywhere near the rate I used to, isn't in the cards.  We have 100% shared finances.

Clearly, that would be a huge mental shift for you, and maybe you aren't interested or able to make it.  But if you can't, it seems like there's very little longterm hope for your relationship, as you sound pretty unhappy with the status quo and it doesn't sound like there's much of a way to change the underlying finances in a way that would make things 50/50.

[tfk9164]

Thank you to all, I got some good thinking points from every response.

My salary has dropped over $30K since I got here.  In my 'old life', I always worked two jobs and I had a side gig that was fun and paid for some fun extras.  I paid my bills on time.  Here, I can't make over $47K, and that's the top pay in my field, which might sound like a lot, but my health insurance payment is huge, my student loan payment is huge (had to take out a parent plus loan for my kids college when the ex decided he wasn't going to help out), I have a car payment, my car insurance doubled in this new area, and I have huge old credit card debt from the years the ex stopped paying child support and disappeared for a year.  My side gig has bombed here and I've actually lost money on that in the process trying to get it going here.  The second job I usually had pays about half the money here and I'd have to spend so much time driving and on gas and tolls it starts to not be cost effective.

It's been so depressing!  Add to all this frustration is the frustration of not liking the area. 

Could I go back to my previous life?  Probably.  I've been putting out feelers and get positive feedback.

I guess what it comes down to is that I gave up A LOT to be here...secure job, friends, family, furniture.  I felt like my ability to earn enough and the expenses of living in this area were somewhat misrepresented to me by my SO, not in a mean way, but in his desire to have me here he misinterpreted some crucial data.

Now, feeling like I am dependent financially on this person makes me really uncomfortable.  Fact is, I don't even like what I do for a living any more, but, in the past, it paid the bills and provided insurance for me and my kids.  Now, it only pays the bills, but I don't get any 'rewards' for working all day in a job I hate.  And by rewards I don't necessarily mean tangible things, but, for instance, the ability to help my kids out, the ability to see friends, etc.

SOs job situation isn't necessarily that stable, and I suspect he is digging into his savings to have me here and I say that because of some statements he has let slip over the past few months. That makes me even more uncomfortable!

Well, again, thanks to all for your input, it has given me some food for thought!

[zarfus]

I think you need to talk to him. A strong relationship should at the very least have transparent finances. I personally don't understand separate finances in a marriage, but some people make it work.... But when you don't even know if he is digging into savings to "support you", I think that simply means to have a conversation about finances and what you need to feel fulfilled.

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[HipGnosis]

I see multiple sides of this.  But there is ambiguity.  Quite a bit.
Didn't you research your income potential and discuss money issues before you moved?
Did SO ask you to move?   Did you move farther away from your kids?
Underwear is a true basic need.  If you need underwear, you simply can't afford to save $50 that month.
You want financial independence in your relationship... but each facet of independence is a wedge in your relationship. 
Why aren't you working a 2nd job again?   Why not find another side gig?
You have me questioning your priorities in multiple elements of your life.  I'm trying to resist assuming you left out the details for personal reasons.  I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you're not aware of the real, root reasons.
I was in the military for 20 yrs.  I traveled a LOT, and lived on a small island of Japan for 3 yrs.  I learned: every location, situation, relationship and person has pros and cons.  You seem latched onto the cons.

[former player]

If you can't make a financial go of earning $47k a year while sharing living expenses, then either your living expenses are too high or your debts are unserviceable. 

If the child on whose behalf you took out student loans is in employment, you need to be looking at them making at least some of the repayment.  Apart from that, you need to look at refinancing your debt at lower interest rates, a creditors agreement or bankruptcy.

I'm getting a bit of a feeling from your posts that you have had a rather fancy-free attitude to money for quite a long time.  You earned good money from two jobs and a side-gig and spent it on fun extras rather than on paying down debt.  You think you don't have money for underwear but want to give money to your kids and spend money seeing friends rather than finding free activities to do with them.  How much of MMM's blog have you read?  Reading or re-reading his posts on attitudes to money might help to get you into the mindset you need to sort out your current situation - which I suspect is less to do with where you are living, or your SO's earnings and more to do with your own attitudes to money.

[Zikoris]

Okay, this is getting kind of crazy - a lot of American households only bring in 47K total, and pay all their expenses and support kids on that amount. They're not rolling in money, but they can afford underwear.

I think we really need a detailed breakdown of where that's going. Personally, I make 10K less than you, travel to Europe and Asia every year, live in an expensive city, and still save 60%. You should be really comfortable earning 47K with no housing or childcare expenses.

[big_slacker]

Okay, this is getting kind of crazy - a lot of American households only bring in 47K total, and pay all their expenses and support kids on that amount. They're not rolling in money, but they can afford underwear.

I think we really need a detailed breakdown of where that's going. Personally, I make 10K less than you, travel to Europe and Asia every year, live in an expensive city, and still save 60%. You should be really comfortable earning 47K with no housing or childcare expenses.

This. No real numbers other than salary. Huge isn't a number, at least not when I'm making my budget.

But budget aside I think the best advice I have is that it's ok to not like things. Living situations, jobs, locale, etc. Sit with the feelings and observe them. How does it feel physically? Mentally? Observing them like this over time without trying to fix them, they often dissipate and leave you with some clarity and root cause. You're better able to make calls after that rather than when you're feeding and fighting your feelings.  If you feel like it, give it a shot for a month and then have a discussion with your SO based on how you're doing then.

[nick663]

I share your opinion that both parties should pay their own way in a relationship, 50/50.

I disagree with that attitude when salaries are very different.  For example, I make a little over double what my wife makes.  If we paid 50/50 for everything it would create a ton of issues because I would have a ridiculous amount of disposable income while she had none.

We split finances based on the percentage of total income we bring into the house.  That means if I make double, I pay 2/3rds of the bills and she pays a 1/3rd.  I still end up with more spending money but it's not as disproportionate as it would be if we split the bills 50/50.

edit:  I should note that this is a much easier conversation to have when the person making more money is leading it.  Not sure how I would approach that if I was the one making less in the relationship.

Here, I can't make over $47K, and that's the top pay in my field, which might sound like a lot, but my health insurance payment is huge, my student loan payment is huge (had to take out a parent plus loan for my kids college when the ex decided he wasn't going to help out), I have a car payment, my car insurance doubled in this new area, and I have huge old credit card debt from the years the ex stopped paying child support and disappeared for a year.  My side gig has bombed here and I've actually lost money on that in the process trying to get it going here.  The second job I usually had pays about half the money here and I'd have to spend so much time driving and on gas and tolls it starts to not be cost effective.

Maybe focus less on salary and more on benefits when shopping for jobs?  My wife's salary went down at her new job but they pay 100% of health insurance so her take home actually went up.  When you're in the sub 50k salaries, the benefit package makes a huge difference.

I also echo what many said.  47k is nearly median household income in the US.  Figure out where your money is going and try to cut the excess where possible.  I won't beat you up over the car payment but I suspect that is one thing that you should take a hard look at if you are having financial trouble.

[Zikoris]

I share your opinion that both parties should pay their own way in a relationship, 50/50.

I disagree with that attitude when salaries are very different.  For example, I make a little over double what my wife makes.  If we paid 50/50 for everything it would create a ton of issues because I would have a ridiculous amount of disposable income while she had none.

We split finances based on the percentage of total income we bring into the house.  That means if I make double, I pay 2/3rds of the bills and she pays a 1/3rd.  I still end up with more spending money but it's not as disproportionate as it would be if we split the bills 50/50.

edit:  I should note that this is a much easier conversation to have when the person making more money is leading it.  Not sure how I would approach that if I was the one making less in the relationship.

See, I think that if your spending is so high that splitting 50/50 results in one person having no money, then it's too high PERIOD. You could always reduce it to the comfort level of the lower earner. I would never subsidize someone else's lifestyle, personally - no chance, regardless of how much money I made.

[nick663]

I share your opinion that both parties should pay their own way in a relationship, 50/50.

I disagree with that attitude when salaries are very different.  For example, I make a little over double what my wife makes.  If we paid 50/50 for everything it would create a ton of issues because I would have a ridiculous amount of disposable income while she had none.

We split finances based on the percentage of total income we bring into the house.  That means if I make double, I pay 2/3rds of the bills and she pays a 1/3rd.  I still end up with more spending money but it's not as disproportionate as it would be if we split the bills 50/50.

edit:  I should note that this is a much easier conversation to have when the person making more money is leading it.  Not sure how I would approach that if I was the one making less in the relationship.

See, I think that if your spending is so high that splitting 50/50 results in one person having no money, then it's too high PERIOD. You could always reduce it to the comfort level of the lower earner. I would never subsidize someone else's lifestyle, personally - no chance, regardless of how much money I made.

Let me clarify slightly:  By saying she would have no disposable income, I'm including our (joint) FI savings target.  Our expenses aren't excessive relative to her income... she just wouldn't have much left over relative to what I would have if we were splitting expenses 50:50 and saving for FI.

It's also worth mentioning that she was completely on board with throwing everything we own on a truck to relocate for my job.  With a less supportive spouse our incomes would be closer to 50:50 instead of 69:31 so I really don't have a problem sharing some of that wealth.

You're welcome to your opinion but I'm just sharing what works for us.

[joonifloofeefloo]

Yeah, I've yet to meet even one person whose life isn't subsidized by others -usually total strangers (e.g., original building costs of Canada's co-ops, etc)- so I would feel weird stopping short at subidizing a partner. It seems like we all receive, so makes sense to give too.

[bogart]

So, I am not of the 50/50 school of thought (not that I'm opposed to a 50/50 split, but it's really not a goal I care about, personally), and ... as others have noted, there's a lot of information missing from your posts in this thread.

Here's what I've gleaned:
You and your SO want to live together but moving to where he is to be able to do so has meant you've taken a financial (income) hit, moved farther away from your kids, and you don't really like the locale.

Your expenses equal or exceed your current (personal) income.

Your SO may not be in a much better financial situation than you are.  I'm not clear whether like you, he thinks the 50/50 split is an important principle/goal or not, but even if it's not, he may not be able to contribute more to your collective financial well-being than he already is.

--------------------

That's about all I know.  But here's what I'd do in your situation, I think.  I'd sit down with your joint financial information -- income, expenses, goals, the whole 9 yards, and I'd talk.  And I'd figure out whether there's a way you can make this work financially, or whether there's not.  Now to be clear, I personally wouldn't care whether the "this is what can work" plan that you come up with does or doesn't involve each party providing 50% of the financial resources.  But you may, and that's fine.  Regardless of how much I was or wasn't providing (for the record, I currently provide ~70% of my household's income and am happy to do so, so this isn't coming from the perspective of someone who's relying on someone else to support her), something I would care about was that I wasn't throwing away (or subtracting from) my future financial security in order to pay for what I need today.  And if you can't get to a place where the two of you can say, "OK, this is what will work and how we will jointly manage it," then I, personally, would leave. 

You're each already contributing unequally in various ways -- you've moved to a place you don't like as much as the one you've left, and detracted from your earning power to do so -- so I don't see that each of you contributing 50/50 of financial resources even necessarily makes sense.  But if it's important to you, that's fine.  You and your SO need to decide what your priorities are and how you're going to realize them, and if you can't come up with a plan that you both agree on (and are willing to implement) then ... you don't have a workable plan as a team and I don't see that it makes sense to stay "on the team."

[Mezzie]

How could he have possibly taken a financial hit by sharing his home? If you're splitting 50/50, then he should have tons of extra money.

That said, I agree with everyone else. You two need to talk, and if you want more advice from us about your financial split, you'll have to actually share numbers.

For what it's worth, I think having a 50/50 split in anything other than a roommate situation is absurd. I make about twice what my husband does, so my income covers twice as much of our expenses. If he paid half, he'd have to beg me for food and gas. That's just not healthy in a loving relationship.

[SwordGuy]

I guess I just don't understand your relationship with your SO.

Nor your attitude about 50/50.

I absolutely agree that each partner in a marriage should be able and willing to provide for themselves at need.   Otherwise, when bad things happen, one partner may end up helpless, unemployable or poverty-stricken.

If that's your fear, it's a well-founded fear.  But the 50/50 prescription is a non-optimal solution to that potential problem.

When I moved in with the woman I intended to marry, I was just out of grad school with no job, about $2k in the bank, a dying car and a pair of broken glasses.  She had a low paying job but she had a paying job with regular wages, which was more than I had.

We didn't concern ourselves about how much each one made.  We concerned ourselves with being a team and making sure out team succeeded.   She bought me a pair of glasses so I would have better job prospects.   We both drove her car as needed.   After I was employed, all our income went into the same pot.   She managed the family finances for about 6 years because (a) she knew more about them, being older and (b) I was working way more hours.   At the six year mark she quit working to go to college, which I paid for, because I was now making decent money.   I took over the family finances at that point because she did more stuff around the house and she didn't really want to do it any more than I wanted to cook.

There's never been "her money" and "my money".  There's only ever been "our money".   

When we first moved in she out earned my by 3-1.   Then I out-earned her by 10 to 1.   Then I out-earned her by 4-1.  Now it's 1.5 to 1, because I took a hit in income moving to where she would be able to get a good job.   In the 34 years we've been married, that income ratio has only ever come up in this message to you.   We never cared enough to track it because it was a meaningless number to us.

That's the finance side of it, and a bit of the relationship side, too.

Now, the really, really important point I don't understand is why you're talking to a bunch of internet strangers instead of the person you love and live with.    I think you really need to know the answer to that question because it will lead you to a solution that's consistent with your values.  (I don't need to know that answer, but you do.)

Hope that helps!

[Carless]

Different people have different perspectives on the money sharing thing.  My SO and I have completely separate finances, but that's really not the point here.  No one can (or should) argue you into tolerating a situation you're unhappy with.  There are no kids in the situation directly, so you have to decide which will make you happier; staying or going back?  You are a grown adult, and one of the privileges of this is that you can make these decisions without input.  You're allowed to say 'no, this was a bad idea' and change your mind.  Are you happier with your SO or by being more financially independent?  There's no wrong answer here, only what you can live with.

[Petunia 100]

I am wondering about your actual spending, too.   Is it that you don't want to share the numbers, or is that you don't know? 

I agree completely with the above person.  You are an adult and should do as you choose.  There is no right or wrong.  However, you should understand the truth of your own numbers before making a decision. 

[RedmondStash]

You are not being a jerk.

You sound unhappy, enough to be considering some large, difficult, and potentially painful changes. That does not make you a jerk. It makes you someone who is trying to figure out how best to take care of themselves.

I don't know what the right answer to your predicament is. But staying with someone who loves you, and whom, presumably, you also love, is not always the right answer, especially if you are miserable.

Never doubt that you have the right to draw a line in the sand and say, "This is what I must do to take care of myself." You're only being a jerk if you add, "you asshole" to the end of that. :)

[Paul der Krake]

Feeling trapped and dependent on someone else for the long term is never okay, and you should work to get yourself out of that situation. Whether that's by earning more or spending less is up to you.