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bugbaby

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Re: Alternative medicine and other healthcare stupidity
« Reply #50 on: February 06, 2018, 06:24:25 AM »
I'm a medical doctor. I do believe in and practice natural prevention such as diet, supplements, etc. I'm a fan of Dr Axe, Dr Blaylock, Dr Phoenix, the whole shebang...

But _my_ doctor (started seeing her last year) is a loony wackadoo naturopath type, oo la la!. I went to her for worsening back and sleep problems ...but because I was a new patient, she ordered an allergy panel which I came to find out cost $2800 that I had to pay $600 out of pocket. And repeatedly insisted I try yoga (even though I pointedly  expressed disinterest several times) and physical therapy (referred me to a therapist whose practice includes reiki, holistic massage and the like) .

So now I'm getting my prescriptions from a neurologist buddy. I love naturopathy but hello, common sense !!

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edgema

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Re: Alternative medicine and other healthcare stupidity
« Reply #51 on: February 06, 2018, 06:49:02 AM »
A quote from a doctor friend of mine - "they have a name for alternative medicine that works...... medicine"

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Re: Alternative medicine and other healthcare stupidity
« Reply #52 on: February 06, 2018, 08:22:31 AM »
I totally get all the examples of cold/uncaring/inattentive doctors in this thread. This is frustrating to encounter when you're in a position of vulnerability trying to explain your symptoms. But this the only profession where one unskilled human somehow equates to "evidence based-medicine is a sham and this uncredentialed buffoon knows what I need better!"

Surely there have been bad civil engineers in the history of construction, but no one then concludes that bridges would be better off built by people with no math/physics/architecture/engineering knowledge?

Yes, you met an unpleasant doctor. That person isn't representative of all of western medicine.

But Medicine is not completely evidence based, in fact evidence based as it relates to tradition science is a new concept in Medicine.  NPR's Freakanomics had a 3 part series on it called Bad medicine back in 2016.  Basically it talked about how a lot of medicine in fact is not evidence based but tradition based.  So guess what, I'm skeptical of Doctors because of this in that I will question any treatments that are prescribed. 

Why because I've also had not bad doctors but some bad experiences.  First I went to a Doc to verify my IT band tendonitis was in fact what I thought it was.  (and not a stress fracture or something worse).  It was but the doc decided since I was in I must feel I needed something more so he prescribed a 30 day anti-inflammatory course.  I began to follow the course even though I was no longer in enough pain to justify anything because the doctor said so, I almost developed an ulcer one of the side effects of the drug.  I didn't consult the Doc, I just stopped taking them because even the Doc when he prescribed them was not all "you need to take these." 

Second, I was in a position where the symptoms presented were likely an iron deficiency.  There were several environmental reasons why this was likely and I had to fight with my doctor in order to have a simple iron test done first.  The results, yup I was low on iron.  So yup, I want a doctor that works with me and I don't treat them like god so I'm not well like by some doctors.   

Edited to clarify what I mean by skeptical.   
« Last Edit: February 06, 2018, 08:32:40 AM by neverrun »

GuitarStv

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Re: Alternative medicine and other healthcare stupidity
« Reply #53 on: February 06, 2018, 08:42:21 AM »
I totally get all the examples of cold/uncaring/inattentive doctors in this thread. This is frustrating to encounter when you're in a position of vulnerability trying to explain your symptoms. But this the only profession where one unskilled human somehow equates to "evidence based-medicine is a sham and this uncredentialed buffoon knows what I need better!"

Surely there have been bad civil engineers in the history of construction, but no one then concludes that bridges would be better off built by people with no math/physics/architecture/engineering knowledge?

Yes, you met an unpleasant doctor. That person isn't representative of all of western medicine.

But Medicine is not completely evidence based, in fact evidence based as it relates to tradition science is a new concept in Medicine.  NPR's Freakanomics had a 3 part series on it called Bad medicine back in 2016.  Basically it talked about how a lot of medicine in fact is not evidence based but tradition based.  So guess what, I'm skeptical of Doctors because of this.

Particularly in the diagnosis of minor illness (unspecified lower back pain, runny nose, etc.) a best guess solution is often considered good enough.  It's OK to be skeptical of Doctors.  It's OK to get a second opinion.  It's OK to question what your doctor is telling you and ask for explanations.  The thing is, the field of medicine is based upon observation and evidence . . . but it's not perfect.  Mistakes get made, people aren't always the most up to date in their research.

It's not OK to abandon reason and give your trust to voodoo witch-doctors, psychics, homeopaths, clairvoyants, or any other completely disproven and debunked field of "healing".  It's like saying "I had a car, but I sold it and bought some magic beans from a guy in the alley which will grow fast enough for me to get around.  The magic beans haven't done shit so far, but my car broke down once . . . so it's effectively the same thing."  These are not equal.


NorthernBlitz

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Re: Alternative medicine and other healthcare stupidity
« Reply #54 on: February 06, 2018, 12:35:23 PM »
I totally get all the examples of cold/uncaring/inattentive doctors in this thread. This is frustrating to encounter when you're in a position of vulnerability trying to explain your symptoms. But this the only profession where one unskilled human somehow equates to "evidence based-medicine is a sham and this uncredentialed buffoon knows what I need better!"

Surely there have been bad civil engineers in the history of construction, but no one then concludes that bridges would be better off built by people with no math/physics/architecture/engineering knowledge?

Yes, you met an unpleasant doctor. That person isn't representative of all of western medicine.

But Medicine is not completely evidence based, in fact evidence based as it relates to tradition science is a new concept in Medicine.  NPR's Freakanomics had a 3 part series on it called Bad medicine back in 2016.  Basically it talked about how a lot of medicine in fact is not evidence based but tradition based.  So guess what, I'm skeptical of Doctors because of this in that I will question any treatments that are prescribed. 

Why because I've also had not bad doctors but some bad experiences.  First I went to a Doc to verify my IT band tendonitis was in fact what I thought it was.  (and not a stress fracture or something worse).  It was but the doc decided since I was in I must feel I needed something more so he prescribed a 30 day anti-inflammatory course.  I began to follow the course even though I was no longer in enough pain to justify anything because the doctor said so, I almost developed an ulcer one of the side effects of the drug.  I didn't consult the Doc, I just stopped taking them because even the Doc when he prescribed them was not all "you need to take these." 

Second, I was in a position where the symptoms presented were likely an iron deficiency.  There were several environmental reasons why this was likely and I had to fight with my doctor in order to have a simple iron test done first.  The results, yup I was low on iron.  So yup, I want a doctor that works with me and I don't treat them like god so I'm not well like by some doctors.   

Edited to clarify what I mean by skeptical.

In case someone wanted the links. I liked all of these podcasts. I think that they highlight some of the issues with western medicine. And look at how to make it better instead of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

http://freakonomics.com/podcast/bad-medicine-part-1-story-98-6/
http://freakonomics.com/podcast/bad-medicine-part-2-drug-trials-and-tribulations/
http://freakonomics.com/podcast/bad-medicine-part-3-death-diagnosis/

Here are a couple of other podcasts about medicine I thought were interesting:
http://www.radiolab.org/story/what-year-life-worth/
https://www.npr.org/programs/ted-radio-hour/572566199/rethinking-medicine?showDate=2017-12-22


Daley

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Re: Alternative medicine and other healthcare stupidity
« Reply #55 on: February 06, 2018, 01:44:26 PM »
In case someone wanted the links. I liked all of these podcasts. I think that they highlight some of the issues with western medicine. And look at how to make it better instead of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

http://freakonomics.com/podcast/bad-medicine-part-1-story-98-6/
http://freakonomics.com/podcast/bad-medicine-part-2-drug-trials-and-tribulations/
http://freakonomics.com/podcast/bad-medicine-part-3-death-diagnosis/

Here are a couple of other podcasts about medicine I thought were interesting:
http://www.radiolab.org/story/what-year-life-worth/
https://www.npr.org/programs/ted-radio-hour/572566199/rethinking-medicine?showDate=2017-12-22

Additionally, have some good reading material on how broken the system really is to compliment this list:

How We Do Harm: A Doctor Breaks Ranks About Being Sick in America by Otis Webb Brawley, M.D.
Overdiagnosed: Making People Sick in the Pursuit of Health by H. Gilbert Welch, M.D., M.P.H.

Combine it all with a society deathly afraid of... err... death...

Which is why Western and alternative medicine all falls flat in the end... they're giant financial machines frequently driven by the fear of pain and death. Improving the quality of life should be the focus, not desperately avoiding the inevitable.

The current system's clearly not great in this country. Not that a lot of the alternatives are that useful or safe, either. I don't care how effective energy medicine can be, and how much I've experienced positive results from it in the past... I've come to a place where my understanding firmly places it in the "we don't know what the heck sort of power we're channeling here, so we need to stop messing with the unknown" camp. Acupuncture, acupressure, NAET, BioSet, yoga, tai-chi, the whole schmeer. I won't touch it with a ten foot pole anymore. Of course, I have similar reservations for the modern pharmacopoeia as well, but I've simply made peace with my health and my mortality, and chosen to opt out of the system for the most part. The mortality rate for every generation is 100%, after all.

I do want to thank the medical professionals in this thread and elsewhere who have not pulled punches with their own profession. You are greatly appreciated.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2018, 01:46:52 PM by Daley »

frugledoc

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Re: Alternative medicine and other healthcare stupidity
« Reply #56 on: February 06, 2018, 03:19:27 PM »
Chronic Lyme disease is real and miserable. I can't speak for whatever program that naturopath is using, but your dismissal of a serious illness makes you sound like an asshole instead of a scientist proving a point.

Sure it is real.  However, there are a lot of people with "serology negative" chronic lyme disease, usually diagnosed by a quack.  I am guessing that is what the OP is referring to, rather than doctor diagnosed chronic lyme disease.


frugledoc

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Re: Alternative medicine and other healthcare stupidity
« Reply #57 on: February 06, 2018, 03:24:30 PM »
It's really surprising what physicians get away with.  Almost every doctor I've ever seen clearly looked at my "file" for about 30 - 90 seconds before seeing me, spent less than 5 minutes of face time with me, and then ghosted.  Few if any doctors allow their patients to email them.  The list goes on.  I like to compare it to my profession (law).  If I prepped for a client meeting for 30 seconds beforehand, and then rushed my client out of the office in 5 minutes (after making them wait in the lobby for a half hour), and then said if you want to contact me, call a receptionist at my office, I would no longer have any clients. 

That said, alternative medicine is mostly hokum.

If you want to pay a doctor $1000 dollars to spend an hour with you I'm sure you will find somebody willing.








GU

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Re: Alternative medicine and other healthcare stupidity
« Reply #58 on: February 06, 2018, 07:26:17 PM »
It's really surprising what physicians get away with.  Almost every doctor I've ever seen clearly looked at my "file" for about 30 - 90 seconds before seeing me, spent less than 5 minutes of face time with me, and then ghosted.  Few if any doctors allow their patients to email them.  The list goes on.  I like to compare it to my profession (law).  If I prepped for a client meeting for 30 seconds beforehand, and then rushed my client out of the office in 5 minutes (after making them wait in the lobby for a half hour), and then said if you want to contact me, call a receptionist at my office, I would no longer have any clients. 

That said, alternative medicine is mostly hokum.

If you want to pay a doctor $1000 dollars to spend an hour with you I'm sure you will find somebody willing.

Only the top lawyers at the most prestigious law firms in a handful of cities charge $1,000 per hour.  These lawyers are not analogous to internists/family doctors.  They would be analogous to the most talented and well-regarded surgeons in the country.

I also addressed this point above.  Many lawyers don't charge by the hour—they either charge a contingency fee or a flat fee similar to how a doctor's office charges per appointment/procedure/etc.  Even these lawyers are rarely able to spend a few rushed minutes with their clients and then foist them upon their assistants or administrative staff, withhold their email address, or otherwise assert  "you're not paying me to address your questions or concerns."

I'm sure there are many annoying aspects about practicing medicine in the 21st century.  But as someone above posted, the AMA has been "the most successful labor union" and no other profession* is more privileged when judged by its combination of compensation and working conditions.

*"Profession" in a traditional but mildly expansive sense of that word.  So think law, medicine, engineering, accounting, finance, etc.

hops

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Re: Alternative medicine and other healthcare stupidity
« Reply #59 on: February 06, 2018, 08:18:00 PM »
Working conditions for doctors are also front-loaded with uncommon misery:

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/02/doctors-long-hours-schedules/516639/

From the article:

Quote
Overall, residents typically work more than twice as many hours annually as their peers in other white-collar professions, such as attorneys in corporate law firms—a grueling schedule that potentially puts both caregivers and patients at risk.

[...]

While residency-program administrators no doubt take their educational obligations seriously, residents are also a cheap source of skilled labor that can fill gaps in coverage. They are paid a fixed, modest salary that, on an hourly basis, is on par with that paid to hospital cleaning staff—and even, on an absolute basis, about half of what nurse practitioners typically earn, while working more than twice as many hours. After adjusting for inflation, residents’ salaries have remained essentially unchanged for the last 40 years.

And residency programs violate the newer, kinder hour restrictions that are currently in place left and right, because what are the residents going to do? They're afraid to file reports because anything that is traced back to them could mean their career is over before it began (while they're still saddled with six-figure debt). And they feel a duty to their patients.

GU, I forgot to ask earlier, have you ever looked into concierge medical service? You can keep a PCP on retainer. The price can be mind-boggling:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/03/business/economy/high-end-medical-care.html

But there are also those who aim to operate on a more modest scale:

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/11/us/doctors-shun-insurance-offering-care-for-cash.html

Edited to add quotes.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2018, 08:53:18 PM by hops »

Abe

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Re: Alternative medicine and other healthcare stupidity
« Reply #60 on: February 06, 2018, 10:01:14 PM »
Working conditions for doctors are also front-loaded with uncommon misery...

And residency programs violate the newer, kinder hour restrictions that are currently in place left and right, because what are the residents going to do? They're afraid to file reports because anything that is traced back to them could mean their career is over before it began (while they're still saddled with six-figure debt). And they feel a duty to their patients.


This is anecdote and tangential to the topic, but my general surgery residency was very strict on not allowing work-hour violations since we could anonymously report them to the governing bodies. Some of the specific restrictions were ridiculous and they have been loosened for practical reasons. I was paid ~ $15/hr in residency, closer to $30/hr in fellowship now. It still sucked being on call for up to 28 hours at a time. The longest time I stayed awake without any naps was 24 hours (5am to 5am the next day - people kept getting shot that Saturday). Now I can theoretically get called any time of day or night during the weekday, but rarely need to drive in. I remember my friend, who was an Army Ranger before going to medical school, said to me: "Hey, at least none of our patients are trying to shoot us".
« Last Edit: February 06, 2018, 10:03:27 PM by Abe »

Mezzie

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Re: Alternative medicine and other healthcare stupidity
« Reply #61 on: February 07, 2018, 07:45:05 AM »
My pregnant sister just about had a fit when her doctor said, "And if you believe in vaccines..."

She managed to say fairly calmly that vaccines weren't a matter of belief and, yes, her kid would get vaccinated. I'm sure in her position, I wouldn't have even tried to be nice about it.

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I have a chronic pain condition that affects my mobility. It's fairly well regulated with prescriotion meds, but some days are worse than others. On days I can't hide my pain, I get several people telling me I'd be fine if I ate X (usually the MLM flavor) or did Y quack therapy or (the worst) just thought positively. I find all that much more annoying than the pain.

Mg doctor and rheumatologist are awesone, though. They encourage as much exercise as I can handle, a healthy diet, and stress management, all of which help along with the meds.

hops

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Re: Alternative medicine and other healthcare stupidity
« Reply #62 on: February 07, 2018, 08:54:30 AM »
Working conditions for doctors are also front-loaded with uncommon misery...

And residency programs violate the newer, kinder hour restrictions that are currently in place left and right, because what are the residents going to do? They're afraid to file reports because anything that is traced back to them could mean their career is over before it began (while they're still saddled with six-figure debt). And they feel a duty to their patients.


This is anecdote and tangential to the topic, but my general surgery residency was very strict on not allowing work-hour violations since we could anonymously report them to the governing bodies. Some of the specific restrictions were ridiculous and they have been loosened for practical reasons. I was paid ~ $15/hr in residency, closer to $30/hr in fellowship now. It still sucked being on call for up to 28 hours at a time. The longest time I stayed awake without any naps was 24 hours (5am to 5am the next day - people kept getting shot that Saturday). Now I can theoretically get called any time of day or night during the weekday, but rarely need to drive in. I remember my friend, who was an Army Ranger before going to medical school, said to me: "Hey, at least none of our patients are trying to shoot us".

Work-hour violations are common in my wife's (non-surgical) residency and others at her school; it's an accepted part of the culture. There's a common doubt, especially in smaller programs, that anonymous reporting would actually remain anonymous, although I think that's only part of what helps preserve the status quo. She and a friend calculated that during intern year, factoring in their actual hours, they earned around minimum wage. Now, in fellowship, it's $30/hr on paper, and closer to $20 if she accounts for her actual hours.

At the conclusion of her 30-hour shifts we used to talk briefly while she ate and showered before bed. Her measure of whether a shift had gone smoothly took into account whether she'd been asleep at 4:00 am and if anyone had thrown anything at her or anyone else in the ED. Abe, I'm glad things are calmer for you these days. The physical and mental stamina required for any kind of sleepless 24-hour stretch of work, but especially one spent operating, is extremely impressive.

To bring things back to the original topic, sometimes I look at the alternative medicine social media pages my aunts belong to. They regularly share bogus graphics claiming that naturopaths and chiropractors receive much more in the way of education and training than MDs and DOs. (Where is all of this hands-on training happening? Maybe in Mitchell and Webb's homeopathic ER, if anyone remembers that skit.) The claims are easily debunked, but the reality is sobering.

One examination found that the entirety of "N.D. clinical education involving primary responsibility for assessing and treating patients is the equivalent of as little as 10 days of real-world family practice. Even being extremely generous, and counting all 450 'patient interactions,' that's 20 days in a family practitioner's office."

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/twenty-days-in-primary-care-practice-or-naturopathic-residency/

In another piece, a former naturopath documents the course of her education and training and concludes:

"I think it is quite apparent that the 561 hours of what I calculated to be 'direct patient contact' in clinical training are nothing of the sort that would instill confidence in anyone that naturopathic education can produce competent primary care physicians."

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/nd-confession-part-1-clinical-training-inside-and-out/

There aren't adequate words to explain how absurd it is to compare that to the clinical training of MDs and DOs. Equally nonsensical claims are made about didactic hours and pharmacology.

That former naturopath is now being sued by a "naturopathic oncologist." (There is no such thing.) If anyone reads even one of the links in this post, this one about the self-styled oncologist will make your jaw drop:

https://respectfulinsolence.com/2017/09/07/a-naturopathic-cancer-quack-tries-to-silence-criticism-with-legal-thuggery/

Scandium

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Re: Alternative medicine and other healthcare stupidity
« Reply #63 on: February 07, 2018, 09:52:53 AM »
What do you call alternative medicine that is proven to work?

MEDICINE

In all seriousness, we have to stop treating every online idea as an equivalence to the scientific method. We should be doing better as we know more. That is not happening because someone with zero background is given equal stature to someone who has studied a topic for their entire life.

This is true of so many more areas other than just healthcare, but to remain on topic, I believe if you are not going to follow the advice of modern medicine, then by all means stop going to them. As a result of your decision, the insurance industry should no longer pay for the increased costs brought on by refusing to follow the guidelines of the professional. It is fine to disagree with the doctor, but you need to then find one that agrees you should take herbal grass weed instead of cholesterol medicine to avoid that bypass, or pay for it yourself.

Pre-ACA, the insurance industry would've been able to weed out people like this.  You have to write a letter to Congress to fix this problem now.

I completely agree congress could make things better. I disagree to the implication that things would be better going back to pre-ACA.  There are quite a few threads that discuss this in detail, so I won't really rehash those threads here.

One thought would be to take ACA even further by stating not only is it a requirement to get insurance, you also have to do certain things in order for your insurance to pay the bills. I am not sure I am in favor of this idea, but it certainly provides an interesting talking point.

Some examples:
1. Mandatory annual health checkups.
2. Mandatory following of doctors recommendations regarding things like taking prescribed medicines.

What if insurance companies were relieved of some of the liabilities if their customers did not do what they could/should have done? This would be different than not covering for preexisting conditions, since everyone would be covered as long as you do what the medical community thinks you should do. Maybe these same requirements could be a requirement of a single payer system and we could remove all for-profit aspects of healthcare, other than those that want to do whatever they want to do.

I suppose this idea would require the reversal of the Reagan decision that requires medical treatment for all in hospitals. In effect, you would need to "Earn" the right to treatment. Would outcomes be better?

I think the idea of letting an individual skip on health insurance, and then force the hospital treat them anyway is already a proven failure. I do not want to go back to that.

If we were to "mandate" medical treatment, which I find deeply uncomfortable from a liberal standpoint, it should at least be evidence based. And there is no evidence routine doctor visits when you're not sick lead to better health outcomes. It's huge waste of money and time for both doctors and patients.
https://www.salon.com/2016/10/16/skip-that-annual-physical-exam-evidence-increasingly-suggests-its-useless/
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp1507485

People have this weird fascination with hanging out with their doctors, I guess because they like the personal attention. Personally I can't stand it. And it's a very american phenomenon with it's absurdly misaligned incentives in health care. Perfectly healthy people taking time out of their day to have a doctor weigh them is extremely silly. And turns out not the best use of resources to catch illnesses. I'm healthy, so I haven't been to a doctor in ~5 years (and the last time was embarrassing as my wife made me go and turns out it was just a bad cold). I don't get my car engine taken apart routinely to check if it's broken, I take it in when it is (yes oil change is routine, but that's not a "checkup").

There is a government research database on the effectiveness of different treatments and procedures which is fascinating, but I can't find it now. I beleive it also said annual breast cancer screenings are not worthwhile, at least not before a certain age. Which of course everyone freaked out about because Feels > science


edit; a hilarious comment on one of the articles I posted. Someone lauding the annual checkout because his doctor told him to eat better and exercise and thus avoid diabetes, and also to stop smoking! Do you really need a person to go to school for 7 years, costing $250,000 and charging thousands to learn to eat healthy?? Something you learn in elementary school, and 5 min on the internet will tell you! Is this the best use of our resources?
« Last Edit: February 07, 2018, 09:59:00 AM by Scandium »

CSuzette

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Re: Alternative medicine and other healthcare stupidity
« Reply #64 on: February 07, 2018, 11:29:47 AM »
Doctors are really good at fixing something that is broken but really lousy at curing anything.   I have variously suffered from back pain - migraines - Ibs-d and high BP 

After 15 years of making the rounds I finally cured my stomach problems myself. The doctors have zero clue.

Cured my back with sit-ups and weight training.

Recently cured the BP. This am 86/58.

Working on the migraines.

The doctors could have shortcutted my recovery by actually taking an interest in some alternatives to medications. There are doctors out there that do but they are hard to find.


GuitarStv

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Re: Alternative medicine and other healthcare stupidity
« Reply #65 on: February 07, 2018, 12:05:25 PM »
What do you call alternative medicine that is proven to work?

MEDICINE
I try to stay out of these conversations, but since I have a background on the research side of things (pharmaceuticals and genomics), this trope really tends to be grating.

If you look at the history of western medicine there where a lot of practices not even 100 years ago that were "medicine" by the standards of the time and have now either been dis-proven or re-branded as "alternative medicine." One of the big ones is actual herbalism. There was a period of time when herbal training was a standard part of medical education since most of the materia medica was based upon treatments that were derived from herbs. In the modern era the biggest reason that herbalism is considered "alternative" is because we've largely moved on to having a very robust inventory of pharmaceuticals with known doses, purifies, and a better understanding of drug-drug interactions. In contrast, herbs are very difficult to work with since so many things can impact the potency of the herb. Then assuming you have a sufficiently potent herb you still need to determine the appropriate dose to administer to the patent. It gets very complicated, very fast, and it's a lot easier to work with known doses in pharmaceutical preparations.

However, if you know what you are doing, herbs are a very effective treatment for some conditions (ex., malaria can be treated using cinchona bark (aka, quinine)) which is the quintessential definition of "medicine" via the trope.

I don't believe that people in this thread are advocating that someone ignore medical history.  Absolutely - malaria can be treated using cinchona bark.  Throw it together with some carbonation, sugar, and gin and you've got yourself a tasty drink too.  What people are concerned about is that alternative medicine often advocates stuff that has never had any evidence of working (homeopathy, or magnet therapy for example), or stuff that demonstrably doesn't work (urine therapy - as advocated by naturopaths, colon cleansing, etc.).  At best, alternative medicine is advocating for things that we know to not work as well (using cinchona bark in place of Atovaquone for example you run into issues . . . many people don't tolerate quinine well, the dosing is complex, and it doesn't work as well).



The fact of the matter is that there is simply so much we don't know about how the human body actually operates. Psychogenic effects such as placebo and nocebo are well known and accounted for in double blind studies (i.e., the gold standard) but the mechanism of action really isn't well understood and that's just a common example that everyone should be familiar with. Once you start doing a deep dive you run into more areas where our understanding is limited at best.

When something is proven to work, it is added to the textbooks and then prescribed for patients.  In alternative medicine, when something is proven not to work it is dogmatically followed . . . since the foundation of the practice is based on lies.

Just because some things aren't well understood does not mean that it's OK to abandon all learning in favour of witch doctors and charlatans.

GuitarStv

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Re: Alternative medicine and other healthcare stupidity
« Reply #66 on: February 07, 2018, 01:50:39 PM »
I don't believe that people in this thread are advocating that someone ignore medical history.  Absolutely - malaria can be treated using cinchona bark.  Throw it together with some carbonation, sugar, and gin and you've got yourself a tasty drink too.  What people are concerned about is that alternative medicine often advocates stuff that has never had any evidence of working (homeopathy, or magnet therapy for example), or stuff that demonstrably doesn't work (urine therapy - as advocated by naturopaths, colon cleansing, etc.).  At best, alternative medicine is advocating for things that we know to not work as well (using cinchona bark in place of Atovaquone for example you run into issues . . . many people don't tolerate quinine well, the dosing is complex, and it doesn't work as well).

Obviously, but I think you missed the point about my comment. The trope is ridiculous if you actually know medical history.

I feel like your comment was off base to begin with.  The whole point of the trope is that it is telling people that medicine changes over time to incorporate the best known ways of treating problems.  The fact that acceptable medicine changes over time as new information comes to light is the whole point of the comment.

When something works demonstrably, it becomes medicine.



Furthermore saying that you only have "medicine" and "alternative medicine" is also misleading since there is stuff that isn't pseudo-science, but has been deprecated because we have more effective treatments. Realistically you have medicine (i.e., evidence-based medicine), deprecated medicine (e.g., herbalism), and alternative "medicine" (e.g., homeopathy).

Practicing 'deprecated medicine' as you call it is of no value since it has been superseded by better treatment.  Practicing alternative 'medicine' is of no value since it's a field based on lies and ignorance.  I tend to group them together since they're both bad decisions, if you want to draw a distinction (even though many alternative medicine practitioners will often incorporate both in their treatments) knock yourself out.  The core of what you're referring to is still bad medicine.



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When something is proven to work, it is added to the textbooks and then prescribed for patients.  In alternative medicine, when something is proven not to work it is dogmatically followed . . . since the foundation of the practice is based on lies.

Just because some things aren't well understood does not mean that it's OK to abandon all learning in favour of witch doctors and charlatans.
You're also being kind of dogmatic in your thinking though because you are falling for the line of thinking that all alternative medicine is the same as homeopathy: basically bullshit. Odds are fairly good that if you are in the United States you might have interacted with an alternative medicine practitioner and not known it.

I submit for your consideration that osteopathic manipulation is alternative medicine since there is limited evidence that it works and some of the claims made (ex., can be used to treat asthma) have been proven false. In fact Quackwatch has even gone on record stating that it's based upon pseudo-science. Despite all of this, the number of people receiving training in this has been growing the past couple years and will likely continue to do so. Of course the punch line is that osteopathic manipulation is taught as part of the training of a DO who goes on to be a fully licensed physician or surgeon along side MDs. Somewhere between 7 to 10% of medical practitioners are a DO and receive additional training in osteopathic manipulation.

Yep.  This is an existing vestigial cancer that needs to be heavily reviewed and excised from modern medicine.  I'd argue however, that these people are demonstrably not practicing medicine (regardless of what the licensing boards say) when they stop following evidence based medicine.



My point being goes back to the trope being really stupid if you actually spend time in medicine and medical research. There is a lot we don't know and there's stuff that we know works reliability, or sometimes works but we don't know how or why. In some cases we've kept dubious things on the books (i.e., osteopathic manipulation) since in some cases it appears to work, but in other cases stuff is dropped because there isn't much evidence of it's effectiveness or an understood mechanism of action. For that matter for some rare diseases you might not even have a large enough population to establish statistical significance of the intervention. Evidence based medicine (EBM) didn't even really arrive on the scene until the 1970's so there are still a lot of practitioners that didn't receive a grounding in EBM in medical school. For that matter, not everything can be placebo controlled (ex., surgical interventions - sham surgery is controversial as a control) so there are some major gaps in determining the effectiveness of a treatment.

There are difficulties with performing science in a diagnostic environment.  It's why medicine (and to a tremendously greater extent psychology) is slower to progress and more error prone than other branches of scientific study.  But things do improve and change on a regular basis.  This is no reason to accept or give credence to the lies of alternative medicine.



So the trope just kind of perpetuates this arrogant mindset that assumes that the current medical canon is 100% correct when we know that at some point some of it will be removed from the canon due to being bullshit.

Anyone who claims that the current medical cannon is 100% correct is likely to be ignorant of what science is.  Medicine is an iterative process that draws it's strength from it's failures and replacement of theories over time.  But the fact is, the trope still stands . . . because of this feature.  That's the difference between it and alternative medicine.

Abe Froman

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Re: Alternative medicine and other healthcare stupidity
« Reply #67 on: February 08, 2018, 07:43:16 AM »
And the honest truth is, Doctors really don't know everything.  I personally had to self diagnose a pregnancy condition that could have resulted in stillbirth.  This diagnosis was later confirmed by a blood test.  My OB had never heard of it.   That experience really woke me up to the limitations of the medical field.

I agree that doctors don't know everything.  They are even wrong on occasion and cause bad outcomes in patient care - even death.  You are presenting anecdotal evidence though.  Statistically the doctor is your best bet almost all the time.  It's fine to question and get a second opinion just in case, but it seems too many are using anecdotal evidence to fuel disbelief of medical science.

As is likely the case with most things - the truth is somewhere in the middle. And this balance is the hard part that my wife and I go through with ourselves and our boys. We completely agree that there are things that you know - feel - more than your doctor can - and that is when you truly need to be an advocate for yourself. At the same time one must also consider utilizing these new technologies and historical data from science to inform us about what to do and what not do. I'll give you two three examples if I may....

One - Inoculations:: I know it can be a wild topic - but wife and I took a Risk Managed approach. We researched the burdensome and scary CDC schedule - but also researched various European schedules. We constructed our own based upon a happy middle and an application schedule that we felt was more appropriate to our kids' age. At birth of one of ours - Nurse asked if Vit K and Hep B was OK for immediate injection. I said Yes to Vit K and no to Hep B - explaining that I know he is not an IV drug user (he is 2 minutes  old) and although his skills may be better than mine - he is not having illicit sex. Afterwards all 4 nurses came up to me with praise for my decision - stating that by law - they could not bias the question.

Two - A specific AutoImmune Condition :: which I will not name on purpose. Wife was feeling REALLY tired - and full body (Functional - I think?) Doc did not want to consider my wife's questions and concerns. The research animal that she is - she then asked the Doc to authorize blood tests for specific markers wife wanted - and yet Doc said no - and tried to redirect. Nevertheless we got blood test through a college buddy (Naturopath) and confirmed that my wife's self-diagnosis was dead-on. Immediately went to Doc with evidence and got Scripts which started making her feel 10000% better.

The 'ol EKG during regular physicals and etc. are important and can't be ignored - so many times they identify problematic items early. Early detection practices and regular checkups are vital - but I think weighted decisions on application of drugs is so important.

Three -  Raised Red Rash:: Noticed on 1 year old son at the time, a rash. Wife breastfeeding only. Doctor strongly suggested steroid cream. Some googling of it before we agreed to that course - scared us a little on the strength of it and possible ramifications. We decided to wait - and start wife on elimination diet - remove everything - add 1 thing back once at a time - week by week. Alas - the offender was dairy and wheat. Rash went away - all is right with the world. BUT WAIT - THERE'S MORE .. a few years later at kids soccer - lady we met had son half our son's weight, half height, not talking not conversant - but same age, on a portable feeding tube (I think). Lady had same issue with son we had - used the SAME steroid cream with F-ed up results. Wife and I looked in shock at each other feeling like we escaped a bullet.

Point being - its easy to go 100% yes in one direction - or 100% no in another. That way there is no work and effort in research and managing risk. But I have learned as a grown up - nothing is black and white and the truth is somewhere in the middle - and it takes work.

iris lily

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Re: Alternative medicine and other healthcare stupidity
« Reply #68 on: February 08, 2018, 09:07:34 AM »
It's really surprising what physicians get away with.  Almost every doctor I've ever seen clearly looked at my "file" for about 30 - 90 seconds before seeing me, spent less than 5 minutes of face time with me, and then ghosted.  Few if any doctors allow their patients to email them.  The list goes on.  I like to compare it to my profession (law).  If I prepped for a client meeting for 30 seconds beforehand, and then rushed my client out of the office in 5 minutes (after making them wait in the lobby for a half hour), and then said if you want to contact me, call a receptionist at my office, I would no longer have any clients. 

That said, alternative medicine is mostly hokum.

This made me laugh, in a “ah, TRUTH!” way.


katstache92

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Re: Alternative medicine and other healthcare stupidity
« Reply #69 on: February 08, 2018, 09:53:26 AM »
I have allergies, bad allergies.  I'm allergic to a variety of things and was completely miserable until I found the nose spray that worked for me.  I'm now on 5 allergy meds (2 nose sprays, 2 pills, and sublingual immunotherapy) under the direction of an ENT.  I have 2 coworkers who have bad allergies as well.  I recommended they consider going to an ENT.  They both did go eventually (one waited 8 months, the other over a year.)  However, both have an attitude of, "I don't want to put all that medicine in my body.  It's not natural."

I don't get it.  They feel better on this medicine.  They can breath normally on this medicine.  They can actually smell things while taking this medicine.  Why would you stop taking this medicine???  It's not even financially motivated, the medicine is cheap.

One of them willingly ingests peppermint oil that was a free sample found on an unknown coworkers desk.  The paper that came with the oil suggests "making a potion" by combining the oil with something else so you can drink it.  Some random person you don't even know says something in this tiny bottle is natural so you trust it over something that has been through the FDA's testing????

I truly cannot understand the attitude.  I'm getting to the point where I'm going to tell them they need to stop complaining to me about their allergies if they don't take the meds.

GU

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Re: Alternative medicine and other healthcare stupidity
« Reply #70 on: February 08, 2018, 03:13:47 PM »
At the conclusion of her 30-hour shifts we used to talk briefly while she ate and showered before bed. Her measure of whether a shift had gone smoothly took into account whether she'd been asleep at 4:00 am and if anyone had thrown anything at her or anyone else in the ED. Abe, I'm glad things are calmer for you these days. The physical and mental stamina required for any kind of sleepless 24-hour stretch of work, but especially one spent operating, is extremely impressive.
Resident shifts are quite frankly insane and seemingly willfully go against the body of scientific knowledge about cognitive declines after long periods of wakefulness. In someways it's appealing that we have regulations to have truckers off the road after 11 hours due to the increased risks of accidents, but are willing to place our trust in physicians who may have been up for 24 hours.

Why are residents' shifts so long? I posit that it's the extreme limitations on the supply of new doctors by the AMA/med schools. By limiting supply, the medical profession gets higher salaries while also preserving prestige (exclusivity begets prestige).

I just did a little googling and found an article complaining that the lowest paid physicians (family doctors) made an average of $209,000 a year, plus benefits. That's really astounding, especially since family docs are known for having pretty benign work hours, lots of vacation time, and since they are rarely dealing with complicated problems the way specialists do.  Now, I'm sure there's a chorus brewing: but muh student loans! but muh residency! 

But let's get some perspective here. Most professionals have student loans, and all professions have a hazing period that sucks for the noobs.  But no other profession has $200k as its salary floor. Again, I say good for the medical profession, I'm not a hater, but don't complain about it. Everyone else who has attempted to make something of themselves has had their own version of "residency," but no other profession pays $200k a year for the easiest job in the field.

Abe

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Re: Alternative medicine and other healthcare stupidity
« Reply #71 on: February 08, 2018, 07:31:40 PM »
REsidents shifts are long because there has to be at least one in house 24/7. Thus the traditional schedule was 24 hours shift every several days. This was followed by the next ~24hrs off.  Most residencies are now switching to a system where every few months you are on from 6pm-6am. This drastically reduces the number of 24hr shifts. Then overnight schedule must allow one night off, so there are still some 24hr shifts on the weekends. There was concern that the number of hand-offs of patient information (every 12 instead of every 24) would increase mistakes, but this was found to be outweighed by reduced mistakes by tired residents. It has nothing to do with a conspiracy of self-limiting residency positions.

The number of residency positions is determined by the federal government since Medicare pays all residents’ salaries. Physician groups have been asking for more funding for more residencies at least over 20 years without success.

Also primary physicians’ jobs are not the easiest in the field. That award goes to dermatologists.

hops

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Re: Alternative medicine and other healthcare stupidity
« Reply #72 on: February 08, 2018, 07:56:46 PM »
Why are residents' shifts so long? I posit that it's the extreme limitations on the supply of new doctors by the AMA/med schools. By limiting supply, the medical profession gets higher salaries while also preserving prestige (exclusivity begets prestige).

Crackpot theories about hoarding money and prestige sort of tie in with the theme of this thread -- those are some of the favorite arguments of chiropractors and naturopaths who want expanded scopes of practice while being held to lower standards than MDs and DOs.

Quote
I just did a little googling and found an article complaining that the lowest paid physicians (family doctors) made an average of $209,000 a year, plus benefits. That's really astounding, especially since family docs are known for having pretty benign work hours, lots of vacation time, and since they are rarely dealing with complicated problems the way specialists do.  Now, I'm sure there's a chorus brewing: but muh student loans! but muh residency!

For family doctors seven or fewer years post-residency, average is closer to $180k. Even $209k would be high for veterans in some parts of the country. (I'm sure this does not change your disdain for their complaints.) The other comments are so silly that I can't tell if you're being serious. 

https://www.aafp.org/about/the-aafp/family-medicine-facts/table-5.html

GU

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Re: Alternative medicine and other healthcare stupidity
« Reply #73 on: February 09, 2018, 08:29:36 AM »
Why are residents' shifts so long? I posit that it's the extreme limitations on the supply of new doctors by the AMA/med schools. By limiting supply, the medical profession gets higher salaries while also preserving prestige (exclusivity begets prestige).

Crackpot theories about hoarding money and prestige sort of tie in with the theme of this thread -- those are some of the favorite arguments of chiropractors and naturopaths who want expanded scopes of practice while being held to lower standards than MDs and DOs.

Quote
I just did a little googling and found an article complaining that the lowest paid physicians (family doctors) made an average of $209,000 a year, plus benefits. That's really astounding, especially since family docs are known for having pretty benign work hours, lots of vacation time, and since they are rarely dealing with complicated problems the way specialists do.  Now, I'm sure there's a chorus brewing: but muh student loans! but muh residency!

For family doctors seven or fewer years post-residency, average is closer to $180k. Even $209k would be high for veterans in some parts of the country. (I'm sure this does not change your disdain for their complaints.) The other comments are so silly that I can't tell if you're being serious. 

https://www.aafp.org/about/the-aafp/family-medicine-facts/table-5.html

Let's address your compensation figures first. Your own link supports exactly what I said:  the average compensation for family doctors is $209,000.  Of course people with less experience make less money, and people with more experience make more.  That doesn't change the accuracy of my comment.

Now on to my "crackpot theory" that the medical profession artificially limits the supply of physicians in order to keep salaries high and working conditions good.  Here's what Princeton economist Uwe Reinhardt, an expert on healthcare economics and not a crackpot says:  "the lamented doctor shortage in the United States is the result of an artificially constrained supply of medical school places and residency slots, which serves to inflate physician incomes above what they would be in a better functioning market without supply constraints."  https://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/05/24/debating-doctors-compensation/  His whole article is carefully written and researched, and is not at all a polemic against the medical profession.

By the way, here's a scholarly research article written in 1970 by a healthcare economics professor at the University of Chicago about the AMA and the medical profession attempting (and succeeding) at artificially restricting the supply of doctors:  https://scholarship.law.duke.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3288&context=lcp  This issue has been around for a while.  But I know, historical context is so crackpotty.

Again, I think having a uniformly talented medical profession is a good thing, and I don't besmirch physicians for making good money.  What I find galling is that people won't admit that they have it good, and further, that they have the chutzpah to flip the script and complain about it.  Some people who go into medicine probably find out, after they've jumped through all of the hoops, that they're not temperamentally suited for the profession.  That is tragic, but again, it happens in other professions all the time as well.  O.k., that's enough on this subject, crackpot out.

NorthernBlitz

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Re: Alternative medicine and other healthcare stupidity
« Reply #74 on: February 09, 2018, 09:54:23 AM »
Why are residents' shifts so long? I posit that it's the extreme limitations on the supply of new doctors by the AMA/med schools. By limiting supply, the medical profession gets higher salaries while also preserving prestige (exclusivity begets prestige).

Crackpot theories about hoarding money and prestige sort of tie in with the theme of this thread -- those are some of the favorite arguments of chiropractors and naturopaths who want expanded scopes of practice while being held to lower standards than MDs and DOs.


I don't think it's ridiculous to suggest that the AMA's primary interest is in keeping physician's salaries high. It makes sense because the AMA is a lobby group that gets paid to protect doctor's interests (not the interests of patients or the public at large).

Check out this episode of Freakonomics that talks about how Nurses in California want to be able to perform some in demand services, but are blocked by the CMA (that's the California branch of the AMA). This is literally a case of the AMA trying to control supply of health care (which has the consequence of keeping costs higher than they would be otherwise).
http://freakonomics.com/podcast/nurses-to-the-rescue/

hops

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Re: Alternative medicine and other healthcare stupidity
« Reply #75 on: February 09, 2018, 10:57:40 AM »
GU, I'm familiar with the issues you're raising. I don't disagree with some of the overall points, and wouldn't argue the system is perfect. (Or that the AMA is always right, but they do get dragged into a lot of alternative medicine conspiracies.) It needs to be improved. Some of the solutions involve doctors -- I know plenty who are trying to help change things themselves -- and others don't. I think that "hazing noobs" and a couple other points were oversimplifications and that, as the Atlantic article points out, it's hard to compare medicine with careers in law or engineering or most other white collar professions, but I'm sure I've made generalizations, too.

You seem to have had underwhelming experiences with doctors that inform your opinions. Same here. Last year I ended up in the hospital, pretty sick after a gastroenterologist continually dismissed my symptoms and screwy labs. Some of my other doctors intervened and got me an appointment with a subspecialist who turned out to be great. He had to redo two expensive procedures because the previous doctor's work was inadequate, and he found things she hadn't. She certainly wasn't billing me like she'd performed subpar work. But she was a rarity; most of my doctors really do work hard for their patients. (Funnily enough, in light of Abe's joke, I've had the most trouble with dermatologists.)

It wasn't until I was afforded a more intimate look behind the scenes, by which time I'd spent about 15 years pretty wary of doctors, that I realized how many false impressions I'd been holding on to. Not only was the reality of being a physician, especially during residency (which can last up to seven years after medical school) and during their early years as an attending (unless they're in particularly lucrative specialties), fairly different than I imagined. So was the makeup of their workload. I realized how much of their work is never seen by patients, and how it influences our feelings about them.

That's not to say anyone deserves a parade for doing their job, or that they aren't eventually rewarded (regardless of whether they're financially motivated). Just that their complaints aren't always baseless.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2018, 11:00:05 AM by hops »

Glenstache

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Re: Alternative medicine and other healthcare stupidity
« Reply #76 on: February 09, 2018, 01:40:47 PM »
I'll add this to the mix:
https://www.naturopathicdiaries.com/

I have known several people who were either classmates of the author or went through similar programs. Regardless of whether they would agree with her global message, all of the stories of their training basically corroborate the point.

Having peeked behind the curtain of both western and alternative medicine and how the practices actually work, I'll take western medicine any day, even with the terrible overlay of insurance companies, etc.

Davnasty

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Re: Alternative medicine and other healthcare stupidity
« Reply #77 on: February 09, 2018, 02:25:05 PM »
I'm a medical doctor. I do believe in and practice natural prevention such as diet, supplements, etc. I'm a fan of Dr Axe, Dr Blaylock, Dr Phoenix, the whole shebang...

But _my_ doctor (started seeing her last year) is a loony wackadoo naturopath type, oo la la!. I went to her for worsening back and sleep problems ...but because I was a new patient, she ordered an allergy panel which I came to find out cost $2800 that I had to pay $600 out of pocket. And repeatedly insisted I try yoga (even though I pointedly  expressed disinterest several times) and physical therapy (referred me to a therapist whose practice includes reiki, holistic massage and the like) .

So now I'm getting my prescriptions from a neurologist buddy. I love naturopathy but hello, common sense !!

Sent from my KIW-L24 using Tapatalk

When you say you're a fan of Dr. Axe, do you mean you have taken a few useful pieces of information from his website or you think he actually knows what he's talking about?

I ask because he is exactly the type of scammer that this thread is based on. He pushes supplements and treatments that have not been proven and may even be harmful. There may be some useful nutritional recommendations mixed in with the bullshit but anyone who recommends Himalayan sea salt lamps for their health benefits is trying to make money, not make people healthy.

mustachepungoeshere

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Re: Alternative medicine and other healthcare stupidity
« Reply #78 on: February 09, 2018, 05:11:24 PM »
A new bill in Australia means bullshit claims like "tonifies kidney essence" and "opens body orifices" would appear on alternative medicines with the approval of the TGA.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/softens-hardness-tga-under-fire-for-health-claim-list-that-endorses-pseudoscience-20180207-h0vfst.html



Cowardly Toaster

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Re: Alternative medicine and other healthcare stupidity
« Reply #79 on: February 09, 2018, 05:27:08 PM »
We have a massive heroin problem in this country caused largely by the doctor-pharmaceutical industry complex. But by all means, let's scoff at people who think that sometimes a home remedy is worth looking into. It's a mystery how doctors have any credibility at all.

And BTW eat margarine instead of butter because it is so much healthier.

GuitarStv

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Re: Alternative medicine and other healthcare stupidity
« Reply #80 on: February 09, 2018, 07:40:41 PM »
Yeah.  When they began prescribing heroin instead of lollipops I started going for checkups much more regularly.

iris lily

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Re: Alternative medicine and other healthcare stupidity
« Reply #81 on: February 10, 2018, 09:05:13 AM »
We have a massive heroin problem in this country caused largely by the doctor-pharmaceutical industry complex. But by all means, let's scoff at people who think that sometimes a home remedy is worth looking into. It's a mystery how doctors have any credibility at all.

And BTW eat margarine instead of butter because it is so much healthier.

Actually some of the newer margarines are healthier than butter.  Both should be used sparingly though. 

Doctors have plenty of credibility, it's the naturopaths that lack it.  I'm surprised there are so many that buy into it.  For me, naturopathy is to western medicine as cryptocurrency is to the stock market.
Real people made real money in bitcoin. It isnt a fantasy, but it is NOT practical for the average bloke.

By this analogy are you saying that so etimes naturopthic treatment does work?

ePalmtrees

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Re: Alternative medicine and other healthcare stupidity
« Reply #82 on: February 10, 2018, 11:32:42 AM »
I'm sorry you have some stupid family members but all you seem to be aware of is negative cases of alternative medicine. I would also take a guess that you do not know who Dr. Phil is.

Modern medicine is a mixed bag. Some doctors are great and we can do great and life saving things now. On the other hand medical errors are the third leading cause of death in the country. You can't make this stuff up. The people who are treating us to keep us well are the third leading cause of killing us.

And you have the profit driven pharmaceutical companies with plenty of examples of outright fraud putting profits over people's health.

There is a long history of modern medicine denying and fighting new evidence to the detriment of the public. Doctors used to recommend smoking cigarettes, you don't think they could be wrong about anything now? They used to do x-rays on pregnant women. Look up Alice Stewart, who discovered this was causing childhood cancer and presented evidence of it. How was she thanked? She was attacked, ostracized and ridiculed for years for no good reason but that's just how the medical community chose to react (while the medical community continued to x-ray pregnant women and cause more cases of childhood cancer).

That's how whistleblowers in medicine are treated. That's not an isolated attitude.

As for alternative medicine, I can say chiropractic cured my anxiety (not even what I went in there for). I can say alternative supplements helped my reflux greatly. Plants from the earth are known to be medicinal, that's just a fact you can't argue with. It's not mainstream because it's not big $$$.

I'm not saying all alternative medicine is good and there aren't any scams, but everything is a mixed bag. The scams aren't the real medicine. There are lots of studies that do back up alternative medicine as well. Even something as simple as high doses of vitamin C for illness and flu. But they are largely ignored unless there is money in it.

 

jim555

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Re: Alternative medicine and other healthcare stupidity
« Reply #83 on: February 10, 2018, 03:42:27 PM »
Medicine and placebo effects are real and really work.  No one knows why.

Abe

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Re: Alternative medicine and other healthcare stupidity
« Reply #84 on: February 10, 2018, 08:03:49 PM »
One comment on the medical errors is third leading cause of death statement:

I think there is a high incidence of medical errors contributing to patient deaths. There are a couple issues with the number cited by Makary in his editorial leading to this often-cited statistic.
One issue is that this was based on an estimate from tertiary-care hospitals and medicare patients. These patients are generally sicker and have more health issues, drastically increasing the risk of a medical error. It is not clear that the errors in these patients' care can be extrapolated to less sick patients.

Second issue was that the sample sizes are small for epidemiologic studies (<1000 patients for each of three studies, 2341 from one). In comparison, when we calculate death rates from cancer, the sample sizes are in the hundreds of thousands. The largest and most thorough of these studies actually found an error rate of 0.38%, 1/3 of the rate that Dr Makary used. This gives 138k deaths due to errors, which is still quite high (4th leading cause). This study was done as part of a statewide effort to reduce medical errors, and appeared to have been successful. Whether these samples are sufficient to obtain a good estimate is unclear, and one of the 3 smaller studies notes that their margin of error was >50% because of small sample size.

The third issue is that these studies examined outcomes from 2000-2007, except one that looked at a single month in 2008, and then assumed the error rate had not decreased between 2008 to 2013 (year of article) despite significant, well-researched attempts across the country to bring them down. One thing to note is that most hospitals now have electronic medical records and pharmacy systems to prevent among other things, medication errors. Also, they keep track of prescriptions to know what exactly the patient is taking.

So I do agree that medical errors leading to deaths do occur, especially in high-risk patients. Whether they occur at the 0.9% rate across all patients is unclear, and there is no recent estimate available to clarify if this rate has gone up or down. Dr Makary notes these issues in his editorial, but did not address them in calculating his estimate.

My point is that medical errors are a serious issue, but these back-of-the-envelope, poorly researched estimates do more to scare people than actually help find ways to fix it. I can't tell you how many review committees there are in every hospital evaluating everything that is done to decrease errors (which is obviously a good thing).  If we want to compare efforts in medicine vs. alternative medicine to reduce errors, I can't say it is even close.

I do agree with the issues about fraud and profits driving care rather than science - that is a big issue in both medicine and alternative medicine.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2018, 08:54:07 PM by Abe »

bacchi

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Re: Alternative medicine and other healthcare stupidity
« Reply #85 on: February 10, 2018, 09:06:37 PM »
Medicine and placebo effects are real and really work.  No one knows why.

There are some recent studies about the placebo effect and the brain releasing chemicals to combat pain. It can definitely help with certain ailments, such as chronic back pain and even IBS, but the placebo effect can't cure cancer no matter how many starch pills someone takes. (Being slightly more gullible might make for a more pain free life.)

Acupuncture is one of the most studied placebo effects. It doesn't matter where the needles are placed; it just matters that they are placed.

The placebo effect in the form of prayer also can't cure measles, as Pastor Terri Pearsons and her congregation found out.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!