Author Topic: After Years of 'Research'...  (Read 6503 times)

EscapeVelocity2020

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After Years of 'Research'...
« on: April 18, 2018, 09:37:44 PM »
...I think that the most difficult part of FIRE is getting a husband and wife to agree on exactly what the rest of their lives should look like.

Let's discuss!

For my anecdotal input, we both wanted kids and that (fortunately) went pretty well.  We liked our first house, but then had an opportunity to travel which was more tempting than settling down.  We sold the first house, eventually got a second house which incorporated some learnings from the shortcomings of the first house.  Got another international assignment, but kept our current house at a significant expense (being empty for the most part while we lived abroad). 

So here we are now, upgrading our second home a little bit.  It's not my wife's dream acreage and it's not my dream low cost foothold for future travel, but we have met in the middle.  From this base, many other details have been optimized.  For instance, having compromised on real estate, I support all the virtual / digital upgrades.  It's amazing, when thousands of dollars are saved on physical assets that are taxed, require mowing, etc. just what you can afford in terms of Netflix and even second-hand devices.

Cut to the present, we have 2 teens and most of our 'extra money' is spent on their devices (buying my son his first (super-outdated) phone, and soon a car, and then our daughter needs a phone, and then a car too...).

jlcnuke

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Re: After Years of 'Research'...
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2018, 11:31:03 AM »
Well, as a single guy I don't have to compromise with a wife. I do have to compromise with myself though. Questions for likely ones you'll go over with your spouse too though, such as "how much more time working is that more luxurious spending worth to me?" and similar thoughts.

Laura33

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Re: After Years of 'Research'...
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2018, 12:03:21 PM »
ITA.  The first part (say the first 5 years) is when you are figuring out your differences.  Each of us grow up with certain assumptions about how life is and What You Do, and it's really not until you are married (or living together) for a while that you even realize that other people don't necessarily share the same assumptions.  Like, I assumed that "budget" meant identify targets for each category, and then try to spend less than that every month; DH, OTOH, had the silly idea that if you put money in a category, that meant you could actually spend it (a/k/a "they're more like guidelines, really").  Silly, silly man.  So obviously, we had to figure out a compromise.  Multiply x1000, and you have the first X years of our marriage.

And then, once you get settled in to a normal life, and assuming everything goes well, you have to figure out how much is enough -- what lifestyle do you really want?  Kids or no?  Little house, big house, apartment?  City, burbs, rural?  SAH or WOH?  For me, the first few years of having an actual job and paying bills felt a little like playing, because I suddenly had the freedom to define myself however I wanted -- and that was a little scary, so I was almost in a rush to settle down into a life that felt comfortable.  So when you add another partner to that mix, now you're talking about meshing two sets of possibilities together, while at the same time you're learning what your money will actually get you.  And that gap between the dreams and what your money buys is where the conflict lies -- e.g., what do you do when one of you wants to upgrade to a bigger house, and the other isn't necessarily happy about the extra years of work necessary to pay for it?  But it's also not always money-related -- for ex., DH likes to go out and do different things; he wants to go out to eat multiple times a week just as entertainment, with the different settings and flavors and all of that.  I am much happier as a homebody; I mean, I like to travel, and I do get bored after say a whole week just sitting at home, but I am a nester, and I need time in my nest to recharge.  So we have had to find a balance of activities that suits both of us.

Eventually I think you reach an equilibrium, where you have figured out how to meet in the middle.  But once you get closer to FIRE, I think it all starts up again.  I mean, it's one thing to dream of telling the asshole boss to take this job and shove it; it's another to decide that it's actually time to cut all those ties permanently.  It's funny, when we were first married, DH was the one saying we should retire at 55 (I just laughed, because he also thought we'd magically have like $10MM at 55), but then @15 years later, when he actually started to look harder at the numbers, he decided that 65-ish was more realistic; and now I, the one who thought we wouldn't have enough until 65-70, have realized that we can retire right now, if we just cut the super-fancy lifestyle.  But I am also realizing that he doesn't actually want to retire -- he has a Ph.D in E.E., total geek, and his current job gives him access to equipment whose combined cost probably started with a "B."  He's not going to want to walk away from that!!!  It's like a pet.  So now we are re-evaluating what the post-FIRE vision means; we both want to do the slow-travel thing, but he is going to want some periodic tie back to all the fun equipment, so maybe a part-time consulting role or something.  And I have had to back off on the "FIRE now!" push, because he simply doesn't want to.  He's always supported me emotionally in getting what I want (both with important things, like the kids and being near family and deciding to go part-time, and with unimportant stuff, like persuading me to get my StupidCar, which I'd have never, ever sprung for without a major push, and which I adore right down to the ground).  So I need to care equally about making sure he has what is important to him, even if that's a lot more money than I think is necessary.

It is weird, because I think right now feels more fraught than any time since the beginning of our marriage, because we are looking at kids moving out in the next few years + sufficient investments to support ourselves without paid work, and so for the first time in decades, we will soon once again have the freedom to decide who we want to be when we grow up, and what kind of life we want as a couple when there are no more kids needing us to care for them.  And that is kind of terrifying in and of itself, but doubly so when there are two people who need to be happy with the result.  I am hoping that the communication skills we have developed over the past 22 years will also help us navigate this really-good-but-scary change, just like we got through much harder things in the past.

use2betrix

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Re: After Years of 'Research'...
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2018, 12:47:15 PM »
I have made about $115k so far this year and my wife and I have been living in a basement AirBnB since December lol. Normally, we live in a 42’ fifth wheel.

I feel like I’ve hit the jackpot to have a wife who is so easily content and low maintenance despite my income. She doesn’t work as I don’t find her making $10-$15/hr to be worthwhile vs all the things she can do with her down time to support me being able to work more.

So yes - I agree. A spouse can make or break a couples financial freedom. However - who you marry is YOUR choice, I can’t comprehend people that marry people who they already have obvious issues they knew about beforehand.

DreamFIRE

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Re: After Years of 'Research'...
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2018, 04:27:55 PM »
...I think that the most difficult part of FIRE is getting a husband and wife to agree on exactly what the rest of their lives should look like.

That's definitely not the most difficult part for me.  I'm single, and I don't have to compromise with anyone, assuming my luck holds out.  lol

Since I'm not FIREd yet, I can't say what is the most difficult part about that.

But for pre-FIRE, the difficult part is making it through another full year of work along with the uncertainty of ACA's future heading into FIRE.  I'm less concerned with the economy and stocks since I'm shifting to a more conservative AA.  I feel pretty low stress over-all, though.  I do dream of FIRE more these days, but I'm in no hurry for a year to fly by.

Zikoris

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Re: After Years of 'Research'...
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2018, 07:03:34 PM »
I suppose that's always been easy for us since I was living pretty close to my ideal lifestyle for many years before we even met, so it was always on full display for anyone I dates to see. Like, if I was getting to know someone and they didn't like my 250 square foot apartment, car-free lifestyle, and propensity towards home cooking, then "Well, I guess we want different things in life, good luck!". Because I've always lived a somewhat "extreme" lifestyle by modern standards, it was important to me to be on the same page with any potential partners. I simply would not have dated someone who wanted a big house or something like that.

I was actually stunned that my boyfriend took to my lifestyle so quickly, because he grew up in extreme wealth - like, 10 bedroom mansion, basically all food from restaurants, drive everywhere, buy anything, etc. He wound up greatly preferring our lifestyle over his old one, so that's never been an issue for us.

ambimammular

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Re: After Years of 'Research'...
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2018, 09:49:09 AM »
Dh and I started out with $3000 buck between us, but we both had a great education. We learned about how-to-money together. We think similarly, which is amazing and seamless most of the time. On those rare occasions we strongly disagree we're both at a loss for how to find the mid-ground.

What to do in retirement is a tough one. We agree to be FI in the next 7-10 years, but then what? Travel, yes. But sell the house? Work one semester, take the other off? Change cities? He loves his job, and I don't want to wait around for him to come home at 5.

We've got time to figure it out.

TheWifeHalf

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Re: After Years of 'Research'...
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2018, 06:51:45 PM »
TheHusbandHalf and I knew from day one, we enjoyed different things. As time went on, we found we had a few things in common. FIRE we agree will probably be more of the same.
The year before we got married, we bought a 1915 house that we've spent the last 38 years remodeling. I think that project is why we became so close. It's not finished yet, but it's close.
We have always agreed on our 'finance' philosophy, which  eliminated many disagreements.  We have NEVER argued about money. Every choice boiled down to "What's best for the marriage?"
He has said he might go to school, golf of course, visit our son in Boston. Me? I had a traumatic brain injury and really, like being home rather than go out by myself. I love our home, I love our yard, and could putz all day. I have plans for so many projects I'd have to live to 125 to get them finished, and I'm always thinking of more. He turned the original dining room into  the most fabulous sewing room, where I can be found if I can't be found digging out in the flowers.

I still have a yearning to 'give back' and have not yet found something that my injury won't hamper. I have led an 'ideal for me' life. Many doctors couldn't believe my progress, so giving back just seems the right thing.  THH retires Jan, 2019, so we'll see what happens!

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Re: After Years of 'Research'...
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2018, 08:43:13 AM »
But its not just about the finances. Its about the long term lifestyle goals and plans, and whether they continue to align as you age together.

This. 100 times this.

Larsg

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Re: After Years of 'Research'...
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2018, 06:43:38 PM »

Cut to the present, we have 2 teens and most of our 'extra money' is spent on their devices (buying my son his first (super-outdated) phone, and soon a car, and then our daughter needs a phone, and then a car too...).

The biggest gift we can give our kids is to teach them about money...now...and it's never too early. Making them a part of the daily round of caring for and doing their part around the house, helping them understand that we all work hard at life and have to pitch in. I started teaching my kids about investing as soon as they could understand the concept. Now, my son and daughter 12/8 both actively read participate in investing a portion of their allowance (earned) based upon the things they would like to have (both apple so they both have built small portfolios of shares in things they like through folioinvesting). They are already beginning to see it pay over time, they are allowed to use some dividends and capital gains when rebalancing their folio once a year to buy rewards from the hard work of their learning. They find learning about simple math much more fun when there is a reward over time. We match a portion of their earnings and this will be used for their college fund if they choose to go to college.

This is really a creative problem that you can have a lot of fun with.


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Re: After Years of 'Research'...
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2018, 06:57:43 PM »
...I think that the most difficult part of FIRE is getting a husband and wife to agree on exactly what the rest of their lives should look like.

You could probably just say "the most difficult part of FIRElife is getting a husband and wife to agree on exactly what the rest of their lives should look like."  FIRE is just one particular case of a universal challenge.

slappy

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Re: After Years of 'Research'...
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2018, 05:55:59 AM »

Cut to the present, we have 2 teens and most of our 'extra money' is spent on their devices (buying my son his first (super-outdated) phone, and soon a car, and then our daughter needs a phone, and then a car too...).

The biggest gift we can give our kids is to teach them about money...now...and it's never too early. Making them a part of the daily round of caring for and doing their part around the house, helping them understand that we all work hard at life and have to pitch in. I started teaching my kids about investing as soon as they could understand the concept. Now, my son and daughter 12/8 both actively read participate in investing a portion of their allowance (earned) based upon the things they would like to have (both apple so they both have built small portfolios of shares in things they like through folioinvesting). They are already beginning to see it pay over time, they are allowed to use some dividends and capital gains when rebalancing their folio once a year to buy rewards from the hard work of their learning. They find learning about simple math much more fun when there is a reward over time. We match a portion of their earnings and this will be used for their college fund if they choose to go to college.

This is really a creative problem that you can have a lot of fun with.

How old were they when you started to introduce the concept?

Laura33

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Re: After Years of 'Research'...
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2018, 11:55:12 AM »
I can’t comprehend people that marry people who they already have obvious issues they knew about beforehand.

I agree.  But IME, the biggest issues have been things that we absolutely never foresaw.

Example:  When we married, we wanted two hard-charging careers, both because we were ambitious and because we wanted to make a lot of money.  So we both assumed we'd follow the jobs and do so for 30+ years.  What we didn't realize was that he wanted to make a lot of money to spend it, and I wanted to make a lot of money to save it so I'd never be poor again.  Well, really, that's not even true, because we DID know that I was a saver and he was a spender.  We just assumed that our dual incomes would allow us to achieve both (and they were), and did not anticipate where those fundamental differences would lead us when we achieved those goals. 

And now here we are.  I have finally realized I will never be poor again.  Huzzah!  Mission accomplished.  But what I didn't know 20+ years ago was that much of my ambition was tied to that fear, and that once that fear went away, so would my desire to continue working in that hard-charging career.  Meanwhile, thanks to my decades of compromising on an acceptable level of spending, his hedonic treadmill is running better than ever; what he didn't know 20+ years ago was that achieving that next level of lifestyle would just lead to a new desire to move up yet another level, and that all of his work and effort and time would leave him thinking he needs more money than ever to maintain his desired lifestyle.  So my goal has been met, while his finish line seems farther away than ever.   Now what? 

We did all of the "right" things before we married.  But we still couldn't foresee who we'd be once we had another 20-30 years of experience under our belts.  So, yes, you do your due diligence, you don't overlook glaring problems on the assumption that love will make it all better.  But there is also no way that you can possibly get a full picture of what your life is going to be, or who the person you married really is, until you are years down the road.  All you can do is figure out how to communicate and keep each other's best interests at heart.

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Re: After Years of 'Research'...
« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2018, 07:38:02 PM »
 But its not just about the finances. Its about the long term lifestyle goals and plans, and whether they continue to align as you age together.
[/quote]

Yep! +1

Also, the hardest thing for me personally is not doing anything counter productive to obtaining FIRE..... Which I find gets harder and harder the closer I get. I like projects, but project require money. I like having control of my time, but work gets in the way and the closer I get to FIRE the less important work seems.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: After Years of 'Research'...
« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2018, 09:08:12 AM »

Cut to the present, we have 2 teens and most of our 'extra money' is spent on their devices (buying my son his first (super-outdated) phone, and soon a car, and then our daughter needs a phone, and then a car too...).

The biggest gift we can give our kids is to teach them about money...now...and it's never too early. Making them a part of the daily round of caring for and doing their part around the house, helping them understand that we all work hard at life and have to pitch in. I started teaching my kids about investing as soon as they could understand the concept. Now, my son and daughter 12/8 both actively read participate in investing a portion of their allowance (earned) based upon the things they would like to have (both apple so they both have built small portfolios of shares in things they like through folioinvesting). They are already beginning to see it pay over time, they are allowed to use some dividends and capital gains when rebalancing their folio once a year to buy rewards from the hard work of their learning. They find learning about simple math much more fun when there is a reward over time. We match a portion of their earnings and this will be used for their college fund if they choose to go to college.

This is really a creative problem that you can have a lot of fun with.

At the risk of making me sound like a geezer, teaching kids about money seemed a lot easier when I was a kid.  No cell phones (and plans), one video game for the neighborhood kept us entertained for months (everyone had the same console or gathered at the house with the best one).  I read a lot of books, played kick-the-can, rode my bike a lot, and spent my allowance and lawn mowing money on 25-cent video games and candy - so I had plenty left over.  Not a whole lot of temptation really.

Between or two kids, my 14 year old just wants enough to cover his monthly cell phone bill and Playstation Plus account.  He manages to save a ridiculous amount.  But our daughter really rolls up her sleeves and works.  Dishwasher, laundry, walks the dog, vacuums, dusts... you name it, she's on it.  But she also loves to go the 5 Below and the dollar stores to get stuff for her YouTube channel posts.  Apparently making slime is a big thing these days.  She's also very into her appearance.

Honestly, I'm not even sure which of the two of them will be better off in the long run!  I just do my best to be fair and offer advice, but much of their childhood experience is very different from mine.  I get excited when my son 'logs off' and rides his bike to meet friends at the park or pool, but it's unreasonable for me to force this on him if his friends all want to meet up on some new co-op Fortnite event.

SugarMountain

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Re: After Years of 'Research'...
« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2018, 01:31:29 PM »
...I think that the most difficult part of FIRE is getting a husband and wife to agree on exactly what the rest of their lives should look like.


Great topic!  We definitely have this challenge.  DW has essentially been retired for a few years, but it was never planned that way, it just sort of happened.  Same with our spending, it just sort of happens.  We don't have any grand vision for post retirement life, I just am really sick of my job and working for da man in general.  DW is more of a more "just do it, we'll figure it out" mindset whereas I want to know where grocery money in July of 2032 is going to come from.  The tricky part is a chunk of "we'll figure it out" just boils down to "stop spending money on stupid shit" which seems to be a hump that we have not yet gotten over, even though according the the various simulators and rules of thumb we have enough.

Ironically, DW is somewhat focused on what I will do if I quit.  I have no end of lists of things I want to do (although in fairness "absolutely nothing" for a month or so is also on the list).  20+ years ago I had a break in employment of about 4 months.  It was great.  I don't remember being bored. 

But the latest is a discussion on where we ultimately want to live.  We live in a HCOL area and I'm fine conceptually moving, although a couple of the ideas are even higher cost of living areas (ski towns). My current compromise is 1) we probably shouldn't do anything for a year after I retire.  Lets see how it feels first. 2) if we move, it has to cost about the same as we can sell the house for.

aceyou

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Re: After Years of 'Research'...
« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2018, 07:50:59 PM »
I hit the lottery with my wife.  We've both changed over the years, but fortunately have done so together.  Some important ones...

Wealth: We were always savers and not "fancy" people right from the get go, but not in any organized or hard-core way.  Then at age 32, we both decided to start living off 50% of our salaries and save for a sub aged 50 retirement.  We were both onboard immediately.  Both of us drive a 5k prius, loves Aldi, hardly ever goes out to eat, and don't shop just to shop.  She loves running and being outside in general. 

Religion:When we dated and for the first years of marriage we were both VERY religious (christian).  Then, a few years ago we both concluded that our religion has no more logical or empirical grounds to explain the existence of the universe than any other religion.  And poof, here we are, raising our children as agnostic atheists.  Had only one of us drawn that conclusion without the other, that'd have been an enormous strain on our marriage...very lucky to have transitioned together on that.

What will retirement look like: My wife really wants to travel, particularly to spanish speaking countries.  I'm becoming more and more excited and on board with this.  We are taking an exchange student this fall in the meantime...bring the world to us while we are still teaching:) 

 

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