Author Topic: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend  (Read 52334 times)

frugalecon

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #50 on: May 02, 2016, 04:12:59 AM »
How much do you care about him? If you really, really want to show him the error of his ways, get a job at a fast food restaurant that's as close to where he lives as possible. Give him all your earnings, with the physical paystubs to back it up. Do this for as long as you feel is necessary to get your point across. If he refuses to follow your example, I don't see any way for him to possibly claim the moral high ground when you cut him off.

This would take so much effort that I would only consider doing it to a close family member, but I do think it would hit the point home when dealing with someone who refuses to support themself.

This would be quite the flourish, and with the right person it might break through, but I doubt it would in this case. Thanks for thinking creatively, though.

I think the idea of cutting off communication makes the most sense. This episode makes it pretty clear how he views me. He seems to have forgotten that I gave him $1000 with no strings attached just a little over four months ago.

Sorry that this devolved into an Antimustachian Shame and Comedy thread. I really was trying to brainstorm ways to help him, because he is in a very precarious position, and I actually am empathetic and don't want him to end up in homelessness. But I guess I will just let others bail him out in the future.

BlueHouse

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #51 on: May 02, 2016, 05:19:26 AM »

I think the idea of cutting off communication makes the most sense. This episode makes it pretty clear how he views me. He seems to have forgotten that I gave him $1000 with no strings attached just a little over four months ago.

Sorry that this devolved into an Antimustachian Shame and Comedy thread. I really was trying to brainstorm ways to help him, because he is in a very precarious position, and I actually am empathetic and don't want him to end up in homelessness. But I guess I will just let others bail him out in the future.

I would cut off communication, but before I did, I would send a written message so it's clear why you are cutting him off. Tell him you care about him, but you can't stand by and watch him crash and burn, not after you've given him tools to help himself.   Say something to the effect that you cannot afford to take care of him and yourself and that you hope he won't put you or anyone else he cares about in a similar situation.
That may help him see what he's doing, or he may not care at all. Honestly, that behavior sounds like someone hiding a substance abuse problem. Does he drink or dabble in anything that you know of?
Sometimes nothing can be a real cool hand

frugalecon

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #52 on: May 02, 2016, 06:51:49 AM »

I think the idea of cutting off communication makes the most sense. This episode makes it pretty clear how he views me. He seems to have forgotten that I gave him $1000 with no strings attached just a little over four months ago.

Sorry that this devolved into an Antimustachian Shame and Comedy thread. I really was trying to brainstorm ways to help him, because he is in a very precarious position, and I actually am empathetic and don't want him to end up in homelessness. But I guess I will just let others bail him out in the future.

I would cut off communication, but before I did, I would send a written message so it's clear why you are cutting him off. Tell him you care about him, but you can't stand by and watch him crash and burn, not after you've given him tools to help himself.   Say something to the effect that you cannot afford to take care of him and yourself and that you hope he won't put you or anyone else he cares about in a similar situation.
That may help him see what he's doing, or he may not care at all. Honestly, that behavior sounds like someone hiding a substance abuse problem. Does he drink or dabble in anything that you know of?

He doesn't drink or dabble in anything at all, other than the magical thinking of astrology and psychics. (He was just turned down for a job last week, and he immediately went to see his psychic to find out why. I shudder to think of the cash that he has flushed down the toilet there.)

I appreciate that sending a final message might be the best thing with some people, but it would just escalate into a back and forth on how I am in the wrong. That has happened between us in the past, and I know that it has happened with other people.

I know it must seem strange that I have remained friends with this person, when he is so difficult to manage. But even though he doesn't recognize this, it is because I am empathetic and know that he has needed someone to turn to for support. He just has a narcissistic personality disorder. I think I am over it.

MrsDinero

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #53 on: May 02, 2016, 07:36:38 AM »


And just to finish the story, after I emailed him telling him that I wouldn't be able to help, and that based on his finances going into debt further did not make sense to me, he sent me a reply that I pissed him off by being in parental mode and he had overestimated my ability to be empathic. And that he had thought about lying about why he needed the money, so that I would have been more likely to loan it to him.

If he was considering lying to you in order to just get money from you then he clearly doesn't value the friendship like you do. 

I think you should take a cooling off period for a while.  Not break up the friendship exactly, but you should go into a "not communicating" mode to give yourself sometime to think and give him sometime to figure things out without you acting as his personal cheerleader/coach.

RedmondStash

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #54 on: May 02, 2016, 08:17:37 AM »
I know it must seem strange that I have remained friends with this person, when he is so difficult to manage. But even though he doesn't recognize this, it is because I am empathetic and know that he has needed someone to turn to for support. He just has a narcissistic personality disorder. I think I am over it.

It's a rough situation. It's hard when someone you're trying to help lashes out at you, especially when you care as much as you seem to here. I hope you're doing what you can to keep your own oxygen mask well secured right now.

Some people just won't be helped. It's good to take a few steps back so that when they crash and burn, you don't get hit with the shrapnel.

LeRainDrop

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #55 on: May 02, 2016, 09:10:58 AM »
I appreciate that sending a final message might be the best thing with some people, but it would just escalate into a back and forth on how I am in the wrong. That has happened between us in the past, and I know that it has happened with other people.

I know it must seem strange that I have remained friends with this person, when he is so difficult to manage. But even though he doesn't recognize this, it is because I am empathetic and know that he has needed someone to turn to for support. He just has a narcissistic personality disorder. I think I am over it.

I really feel for you, frugalecon.  This situation reminds me of my middle brother.  He had already received a number of small loans from me and youngest brother in fairly quick succession during the course of him moving across the country.  After trying to make his "dreams" work -- on which financially it was obviously not possible to support himself -- he came back to us asking for a significant chunk of money so that he could continue pursuing the dream job.  When he realized simple asking wasn't getting him far, he resorted to anger, insults, and threats of "what might happen" to him if he can't deal with the stress.  So, under lots of pressure from my parents, youngest brother and I eventually offered him a slightly larger loan in exchange for very specific steps he would need to take towards getting a stable job on which he could support himself (e.g., spend X hours per day actively searching, apply for Y jobs per week), and if he did not follow those requirements, then the loan would be immediately due and payable one month later.  Middle brother then played along nicely about how great this was of us and how he absolutely would not let us down.  Anyhow, as soon as the money transfer went through middle brother essentially said f-you and disappeared for months while he continued doing whatever the hell he wanted to do.

Not to completely depress you, about a year or two later, middle brother started paying us back and eventually did pay off the full principal amount.  Plus he found a way to make his "dream job" work -- which he now hates -- after grossly manipulating my mom to send him thousands out of her retirement account.  Allegedly, he will pay that back at some point.  He has agreed to "talk to her about it" in June.  The most annoying thing is that middle brother now talks about how he turns down jobs and only takes what jobs he needs to in order to pay his bills and take care of himself -- he says this openly even to my mom who is waiting to schedule her cataracts surgeries until she gets her money back from him, and he knows it.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2016, 09:15:00 AM by LeRainDrop »

prognastat

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #56 on: May 02, 2016, 10:47:52 AM »
I appreciate that sending a final message might be the best thing with some people, but it would just escalate into a back and forth on how I am in the wrong. That has happened between us in the past, and I know that it has happened with other people.

I know it must seem strange that I have remained friends with this person, when he is so difficult to manage. But even though he doesn't recognize this, it is because I am empathetic and know that he has needed someone to turn to for support. He just has a narcissistic personality disorder. I think I am over it.

I really feel for you, frugalecon.  This situation reminds me of my middle brother.  He had already received a number of small loans from me and youngest brother in fairly quick succession during the course of him moving across the country.  After trying to make his "dreams" work -- on which financially it was obviously not possible to support himself -- he came back to us asking for a significant chunk of money so that he could continue pursuing the dream job.  When he realized simple asking wasn't getting him far, he resorted to anger, insults, and threats of "what might happen" to him if he can't deal with the stress.  So, under lots of pressure from my parents, youngest brother and I eventually offered him a slightly larger loan in exchange for very specific steps he would need to take towards getting a stable job on which he could support himself (e.g., spend X hours per day actively searching, apply for Y jobs per week), and if he did not follow those requirements, then the loan would be immediately due and payable one month later.  Middle brother then played along nicely about how great this was of us and how he absolutely would not let us down.  Anyhow, as soon as the money transfer went through middle brother essentially said f-you and disappeared for months while he continued doing whatever the hell he wanted to do.

Not to completely depress you, about a year or two later, middle brother started paying us back and eventually did pay off the full principal amount.  Plus he found a way to make his "dream job" work -- which he now hates -- after grossly manipulating my mom to send him thousands out of her retirement account.  Allegedly, he will pay that back at some point.  He has agreed to "talk to her about it" in June.  The most annoying thing is that middle brother now talks about how he turns down jobs and only takes what jobs he needs to in order to pay his bills and take care of himself -- he says this openly even to my mom who is waiting to schedule her cataracts surgeries until she gets her money back from him, and he knows it.

Sorry to say this and I generally don't use the word lightly, but your brother sounds like scum. It's bad enough to be using you and the younger brother, but to make your mom withdraw her retirement savings early and not only to turn down work that would allow him to pay her back money he knows she is in need of, but to brag about it to you all is just the worst behavior.

frugalecon

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #57 on: May 02, 2016, 11:08:00 AM »
I appreciate that sending a final message might be the best thing with some people, but it would just escalate into a back and forth on how I am in the wrong. That has happened between us in the past, and I know that it has happened with other people.

I know it must seem strange that I have remained friends with this person, when he is so difficult to manage. But even though he doesn't recognize this, it is because I am empathetic and know that he has needed someone to turn to for support. He just has a narcissistic personality disorder. I think I am over it.

I really feel for you, frugalecon.  This situation reminds me of my middle brother.  He had already received a number of small loans from me and youngest brother in fairly quick succession during the course of him moving across the country.  After trying to make his "dreams" work -- on which financially it was obviously not possible to support himself -- he came back to us asking for a significant chunk of money so that he could continue pursuing the dream job.  When he realized simple asking wasn't getting him far, he resorted to anger, insults, and threats of "what might happen" to him if he can't deal with the stress.  So, under lots of pressure from my parents, youngest brother and I eventually offered him a slightly larger loan in exchange for very specific steps he would need to take towards getting a stable job on which he could support himself (e.g., spend X hours per day actively searching, apply for Y jobs per week), and if he did not follow those requirements, then the loan would be immediately due and payable one month later.  Middle brother then played along nicely about how great this was of us and how he absolutely would not let us down.  Anyhow, as soon as the money transfer went through middle brother essentially said f-you and disappeared for months while he continued doing whatever the hell he wanted to do.

Not to completely depress you, about a year or two later, middle brother started paying us back and eventually did pay off the full principal amount.  Plus he found a way to make his "dream job" work -- which he now hates -- after grossly manipulating my mom to send him thousands out of her retirement account.  Allegedly, he will pay that back at some point.  He has agreed to "talk to her about it" in June.  The most annoying thing is that middle brother now talks about how he turns down jobs and only takes what jobs he needs to in order to pay his bills and take care of himself -- he says this openly even to my mom who is waiting to schedule her cataracts surgeries until she gets her money back from him, and he knows it.

Sorry to say this and I generally don't use the word lightly, but your brother sounds like scum. It's bad enough to be using you and the younger brother, but to make your mom withdraw her retirement savings early and not only to turn down work that would allow him to pay her back money he knows she is in need of, but to brag about it to you all is just the worst behavior.

I think that the clinical term for people like this is "narcissistic personality disorder." Me, me, me, me, me, me, me, no, not you, me, me, me, me, me...but enough about me, what are YOU going to do for me, me, me, me, me, me...


green daisy

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #58 on: May 02, 2016, 11:34:36 AM »
I think he gave you a gift by lashing out at you like that.  It will be easier for you now to cut ties without guilt.  Not that you had anything to feel guilty about in the first place, but I know I tend to feel guilty easily even if I shouldn't.  It's easier when the other person acts like a jerk. 

honeybbq

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #59 on: May 02, 2016, 01:10:41 PM »
I think he gave you a gift by lashing out at you like that.  It will be easier for you now to cut ties without guilt.  Not that you had anything to feel guilty about in the first place, but I know I tend to feel guilty easily even if I shouldn't.  It's easier when the other person acts like a jerk.

+1

Made your decision easy if you ask me.

Josiecat

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #60 on: May 02, 2016, 04:59:56 PM »
He isn't working and still has money for psychics?  WTF?  Where is this money coming from?  He is playing you.

LeRainDrop

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #61 on: May 02, 2016, 05:31:50 PM »
I think he gave you a gift by lashing out at you like that.  It will be easier for you now to cut ties without guilt.  Not that you had anything to feel guilty about in the first place, but I know I tend to feel guilty easily even if I shouldn't.  It's easier when the other person acts like a jerk.

+1

Made your decision easy if you ask me.

I agree.  That's a much more succinct way of summarizing the moral of my story with middle brother.  Had youngest brother and I listened to our guts when middle brother lashed out, we would not have made that final loan to him.  Begging for a loan for one thing, all while intending to use it for another purpose, is fraudulent inducement, immoral, etc.  Be glad you see the warning signs from your "friend" now -- heed them!

Capsu78

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #62 on: May 02, 2016, 05:53:15 PM »
He isn't working and still has money for psychics?  WTF?  Where is this money coming from?  He is playing you.

Silly Rabbit, the astrology is the drug and the psychic is the pusherman.  I would have to tell my friend his line of credit with the Age of Aquarius Bank has been reached its limit.   

I think you may be dealing with a friend with mental health issues, whose actions are a byproduct of illness...but just like you can't rescue a drowning person by letting them sit on your shoulders, you need to establish some new boundries that allow you to at least feel empathy.  I have had to "bottom line" a family member and it was very, very painful...but she moved on to other saps once she knew I was serious.  My own empathy was a pledge to myself I would not cut off all social contact forever- but after a couple of years she came back around without the drama. 

frugalecon

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #63 on: May 02, 2016, 06:34:37 PM »
He isn't working and still has money for psychics?  WTF?  Where is this money coming from?  He is playing you.

Well, his exact words were: "I don't need you to tell me whether I am planning wisely or not." The part he left off was, "I just need no-strings-attached cash."

The annoying thing is that this interaction ruined my night of sleep, and I had to spend the day at work operating on fumes.

The_Dude

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #64 on: May 02, 2016, 06:57:28 PM »
frugelcon, why do you feel the need to maintain this friendship and provide monetary support to this person?  If this is a meaningful relationship where you have things in common and enjoy each other's company then a full cessation of communications shouldn't be necessary.  If you have these things then keep the friendship focused on those and avoid the other areas.  Also, please realize that not everyone can be helped.  Whether from mental illness or pure narcissism, I don't see how your financial advice or $1K would actually provide any sort of lasting help for this person given the history you describe.

The one word that came to mind reading this thread is "enabler."  I don't mean to insult you as most enablers have their heart in the right place but can actually do a disservice to the enabled in the long run. 

ender

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #65 on: May 03, 2016, 05:44:24 AM »
frugelcon, why do you feel the need to maintain this friendship and provide monetary support to this person?  If this is a meaningful relationship where you have things in common and enjoy each other's company then a full cessation of communications shouldn't be necessary.  If you have these things then keep the friendship focused on those and avoid the other areas.  Also, please realize that not everyone can be helped.  Whether from mental illness or pure narcissism, I don't see how your financial advice or $1K would actually provide any sort of lasting help for this person given the history you describe.

Not everyone either wants or is willing to just cut ties with friends/family so completely.

It's quite common on MMM forums to see a situation and get tons of responses like, "get out! this person/relationship is horrible" but oftentimes there are many more constraints or factors affecting the decision. It is not always the best to just leave every situation like this.

frugalecon

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #66 on: May 03, 2016, 07:02:21 AM »
frugelcon, why do you feel the need to maintain this friendship and provide monetary support to this person?  If this is a meaningful relationship where you have things in common and enjoy each other's company then a full cessation of communications shouldn't be necessary.  If you have these things then keep the friendship focused on those and avoid the other areas.  Also, please realize that not everyone can be helped.  Whether from mental illness or pure narcissism, I don't see how your financial advice or $1K would actually provide any sort of lasting help for this person given the history you describe.

The one word that came to mind reading this thread is "enabler."  I don't mean to insult you as most enablers have their heart in the right place but can actually do a disservice to the enabled in the long run.

This is a fair question, and I sort of addressed it above. I have known this person for a long time, and, not surprisingly, he does not have a very robust social network as a result of his behavior. I view him as someone who needs a friend, even if he his maddeningly frustrating at times. I initiated the thread to learn more about what sorts of practical options might be available to him, and there were some good suggestions. He is only getting older, and I am not optimistic that his work life is really going to turn around, so some of those options will become necessary at some point.

I have made monetary gifts to him at times, when I was satisfied that there was a genuine need and limited other options. In the current instance, he wants money for a trip even though he just started a temp assignment in his field. I probably shouldn't have posted about it, but I really needed to blow off some steam after the unreasonable email he sent me in response to my decision not to send him no-strings-attached cash. I haven't responded to his email, and I don't intend to. I shared my perspective (someone deep in debt to multiple creditors, including the IRS, who is just starting to work after close to 2 years of unemployment and couldn't scrape up the money to pay his rent on June 1, shouldn't go deeper into debt for an optional trip), and he shared his perspective (that he doesn't need my financial advice and he overestimated my ability to empathize with his situation). Not much to talk about there.

The broader issue here that no doubt affects many Mustachians is that the people around us figure out that we have significant assets and a high degree of financial resilience. That makes us natural targets for those who have somewhat sketchier financial lives. It seems important to have a default strategy for dealing with uncomfortable conversations.

tipster350

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #67 on: May 03, 2016, 11:09:36 AM »
I have one friend that I worry about. He has the ability to make good money and usually does, but has no concept of frugality, makes poor decisions, and takes big risks. Oddly the risk taking usually works out for him, but his luck might not hold out forever. He's playing against the odds. I know that if he were to hit it big, he would throw some money my way because he would want to share his good fortune with his loyal friend. If I needed money and he had it, he would give it no questions asked. But I worry that when we are old and I most likely have the safe, stable place to live and enough funds, he will be in a bad way, and I will have a hard time seeing him suffer. Yet I am the one making all the hard decisions and putting in all the sweat to make it there while he is going out to eat daily. I think my focusing and worrying about him and wanting to take care of him despite his poor decisions is actually more of an issue with myself than anything. I fight against my over-responsible nature and wanting to function for other people instead of letting them function for themselves and letting them feel their consequences. I am generally successful at my behavior if not my emotions.

My coping mechanism is to step outside myself and say: what would a sane person do in this situation? Or, what would I say to a friend asking me advice about the same type of situation? That helps me step back and determine if I am in that over functioning mode again.

So if you were to step back and advise a friend in your shoes, what would you say to them?

I know what I would say: For whatever reason, your "friend" chooses to put himself in a perilous situation. Unless he is truly ready to change, you cannot help him. It will be hard to watch but you are powerless to save him from himself. Either give the money with no expectations or don't give the money. Anything else will put you into a situation where you are trying to control the outcome and can't.

Frankies Girl

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #68 on: May 03, 2016, 11:52:43 AM »
frugelcon, why do you feel the need to maintain this friendship and provide monetary support to this person?  If this is a meaningful relationship where you have things in common and enjoy each other's company then a full cessation of communications shouldn't be necessary.  If you have these things then keep the friendship focused on those and avoid the other areas.  Also, please realize that not everyone can be helped.  Whether from mental illness or pure narcissism, I don't see how your financial advice or $1K would actually provide any sort of lasting help for this person given the history you describe.

The one word that came to mind reading this thread is "enabler."  I don't mean to insult you as most enablers have their heart in the right place but can actually do a disservice to the enabled in the long run.

This is a fair question, and I sort of addressed it above. I have known this person for a long time, and, not surprisingly, he does not have a very robust social network as a result of his behavior. I view him as someone who needs a friend, even if he his maddeningly frustrating at times. I initiated the thread to learn more about what sorts of practical options might be available to him, and there were some good suggestions. He is only getting older, and I am not optimistic that his work life is really going to turn around, so some of those options will become necessary at some point.

I have made monetary gifts to him at times, when I was satisfied that there was a genuine need and limited other options. In the current instance, he wants money for a trip even though he just started a temp assignment in his field. I probably shouldn't have posted about it, but I really needed to blow off some steam after the unreasonable email he sent me in response to my decision not to send him no-strings-attached cash. I haven't responded to his email, and I don't intend to. I shared my perspective (someone deep in debt to multiple creditors, including the IRS, who is just starting to work after close to 2 years of unemployment and couldn't scrape up the money to pay his rent on June 1, shouldn't go deeper into debt for an optional trip), and he shared his perspective (that he doesn't need my financial advice and he overestimated my ability to empathize with his situation). Not much to talk about there.

The broader issue here that no doubt affects many Mustachians is that the people around us figure out that we have significant assets and a high degree of financial resilience. That makes us natural targets for those who have somewhat sketchier financial lives. It seems important to have a default strategy for dealing with uncomfortable conversations.


(not intending to sound mean or anything, just really concerned for YOU rather than your so-called friend)

Based off what you've posted here and earlier, you're still fitting the classification of enabler. You've posted nothing about what you're getting from him in regards to this relationship - no "he's a great friend, we enjoy doing X activity together, love talking to him, he's been supportive of me during bad times..." nothing.

The only things you've posted are that he has a very poor work history because he can't get along with coworkers, he has few friends and family because he can't get along with people, he is very poor with money, selfish, vain, careless, believes in astrology and psychics (points to a low intellect/intelligence level), and he's become demanding and rude when the money stops running from the few people that still talk to him.

You are frustrated and annoyed with his actions and there is even some contempt coming through when I read your posts about the guy, and even trying to help him, he literally bites the hand that feeds him.

Saying that you're still friends with him strictly because you've known him a long time and he has no one else speaks to you being more of a martyr/enabler than anything. If you aren't getting good vibes and happiness hanging out or talking to this guy, then you have to think about your deeper motives and what the payoff is for you. Is it to feel better about yourself (because you're not a crazy, worthless mooch)? Is it to feel superior? Is there some sense of him being your charity case through a misguided belief that you can somehow save him?

Please do think about what you're saying about yourself when you keep a person like this in your life. And what real friendship means. It's not a one way street. You should have a dozen wonderful reasons for being friends with a person that don't sound like obligations or penance.

I frequently have no idea what I'm talking about. Like now.

FIREd as of: March 6th, 2015!

Cassie

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #69 on: May 03, 2016, 12:40:43 PM »
When I was young I would hang onto friends even once they no longer were enjoyable. As I aged I realized that some friendships have a season and it is fine to let go when done. He has few friends and you feel sorry for him but he abuses you when you won't give him $ by being shitty.  The season of this friendship is done. sorry you are going through this.

Josiecat

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #70 on: May 03, 2016, 06:40:54 PM »
Sounds like this friendship has run its course and it's time to let it go.

mjones1234

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #71 on: May 09, 2016, 01:00:31 PM »
My daughter exhibited some of the characteristics you've described here. Excuse after excuse. No one will hire me. I don't have enough experience. I put in a ton of applications online
but never hear anything back. Honestly, she was just in a cycle of self-pity along with a big dose of laziness. It was easier to "chill" as she liked to put it, then to get out there and look.
Why not? We've been covering all of her needs. Like a career welfare recipient, she was given just enough to get by, with no incentive to do better. Especially sense all of her friends were
had the same mindset. I was about to send her packing for her own good, but did tell her if she could find a job and work it for one month with no absences, I would give her $500 as a
congratulatory gift. And, as long as she kept working, she would have free room/board until she could save enough for an apartment. That was the carrot she needed. She went over to
Target, picked up a job and at the end of the month, she was given her cash. The day she was hired, she came gleaming with pride. She finally saw that society legitimately found value in
what she could provide. She spent a year there, but I encouraged her to consider waiting tables as minimum wage just wasn't cutting it. She now makes $200 a night at an Italian restaurant
and wants more. She's now thinking about college classes to be a dental assistant. If you knew my daughter 2 years ago, you'd wonder how she was every going to get motivated.
Maybe you could say "hey, i want to help you. I want to be a friend, but I don't want to be taken advantage of. I have $1000 bucks with your name on it, if you'll spend 90 days at just one
job. No strings attached. If after that time, you don't want to keep working, then let's remove the money from the equation going forward and be friends." Down deep, he has to appreciate
what you're doing for him, but he can't be rationale right now. His mind is not working correctly. Good luck.

Warlord1986

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #72 on: May 09, 2016, 01:22:03 PM »
My daughter exhibited some of the characteristics you've described here. Excuse after excuse. No one will hire me. I don't have enough experience. I put in a ton of applications online
but never hear anything back. Honestly, she was just in a cycle of self-pity along with a big dose of laziness. It was easier to "chill" as she liked to put it, then to get out there and look.
Why not? We've been covering all of her needs. Like a career welfare recipient, she was given just enough to get by, with no incentive to do better. Especially sense all of her friends were
had the same mindset. I was about to send her packing for her own good, but did tell her if she could find a job and work it for one month with no absences, I would give her $500 as a
congratulatory gift. And, as long as she kept working, she would have free room/board until she could save enough for an apartment. That was the carrot she needed. She went over to
Target, picked up a job and at the end of the month, she was given her cash. The day she was hired, she came gleaming with pride. She finally saw that society legitimately found value in
what she could provide. She spent a year there, but I encouraged her to consider waiting tables as minimum wage just wasn't cutting it. She now makes $200 a night at an Italian restaurant
and wants more. She's now thinking about college classes to be a dental assistant. If you knew my daughter 2 years ago, you'd wonder how she was every going to get motivated.
Maybe you could say "hey, i want to help you. I want to be a friend, but I don't want to be taken advantage of. I have $1000 bucks with your name on it, if you'll spend 90 days at just one
job. No strings attached. If after that time, you don't want to keep working, then let's remove the money from the equation going forward and be friends." Down deep, he has to appreciate
what you're doing for him, but he can't be rationale right now. His mind is not working correctly. Good luck.

There's a big difference between a teenager who needs someone to point them in the right direction and help them get started, and someone with 6+ decades on this earth demanding free money. This dude is not frugalecon's kid, and it's not anyone else's job to motivate him to find employment.

RedmondStash

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #73 on: May 09, 2016, 05:36:49 PM »
My daughter exhibited some of the characteristics you've described here. Excuse after excuse. No one will hire me. I don't have enough experience. I put in a ton of applications online
but never hear anything back. Honestly, she was just in a cycle of self-pity along with a big dose of laziness. It was easier to "chill" as she liked to put it, then to get out there and look.
Why not? We've been covering all of her needs. Like a career welfare recipient, she was given just enough to get by, with no incentive to do better. Especially sense all of her friends were
had the same mindset. I was about to send her packing for her own good, but did tell her if she could find a job and work it for one month with no absences, I would give her $500 as a
congratulatory gift. And, as long as she kept working, she would have free room/board until she could save enough for an apartment. That was the carrot she needed. She went over to
Target, picked up a job and at the end of the month, she was given her cash. The day she was hired, she came gleaming with pride. She finally saw that society legitimately found value in
what she could provide. She spent a year there, but I encouraged her to consider waiting tables as minimum wage just wasn't cutting it. She now makes $200 a night at an Italian restaurant
and wants more. She's now thinking about college classes to be a dental assistant. If you knew my daughter 2 years ago, you'd wonder how she was every going to get motivated.
Maybe you could say "hey, i want to help you. I want to be a friend, but I don't want to be taken advantage of. I have $1000 bucks with your name on it, if you'll spend 90 days at just one
job. No strings attached. If after that time, you don't want to keep working, then let's remove the money from the equation going forward and be friends." Down deep, he has to appreciate
what you're doing for him, but he can't be rationale right now. His mind is not working correctly. Good luck.

There's a big difference between a teenager who needs someone to point them in the right direction and help them get started, and someone with 6+ decades on this earth demanding free money. This dude is not frugalecon's kid, and it's not anyone else's job to motivate him to find employment.

I tend to agree. A teenager is still learning how to be an adult. Someone in his 60s is often pretty calcified in his ways. This sounds like a lifelong habit for him, one he's had decades to settle into, and one he is fighting hard against changing.

At a certain point, with adults, you have to let people fail in their lives. It doesn't mean you don't care. It's just tough love. Otherwise, they'll drag you down with them, and they still won't change.

LeRainDrop

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #74 on: May 09, 2016, 05:44:37 PM »
My daughter exhibited some of the characteristics you've described here. Excuse after excuse. No one will hire me. I don't have enough experience. I put in a ton of applications online
but never hear anything back. Honestly, she was just in a cycle of self-pity along with a big dose of laziness. It was easier to "chill" as she liked to put it, then to get out there and look.
Why not? We've been covering all of her needs. Like a career welfare recipient, she was given just enough to get by, with no incentive to do better. Especially sense all of her friends were
had the same mindset. I was about to send her packing for her own good, but did tell her if she could find a job and work it for one month with no absences, I would give her $500 as a
congratulatory gift. And, as long as she kept working, she would have free room/board until she could save enough for an apartment. That was the carrot she needed. She went over to
Target, picked up a job and at the end of the month, she was given her cash. The day she was hired, she came gleaming with pride. She finally saw that society legitimately found value in
what she could provide. She spent a year there, but I encouraged her to consider waiting tables as minimum wage just wasn't cutting it. She now makes $200 a night at an Italian restaurant
and wants more. She's now thinking about college classes to be a dental assistant. If you knew my daughter 2 years ago, you'd wonder how she was every going to get motivated.
Maybe you could say "hey, i want to help you. I want to be a friend, but I don't want to be taken advantage of. I have $1000 bucks with your name on it, if you'll spend 90 days at just one
job. No strings attached. If after that time, you don't want to keep working, then let's remove the money from the equation going forward and be friends." Down deep, he has to appreciate
what you're doing for him, but he can't be rationale right now. His mind is not working correctly. Good luck.

There's a big difference between a teenager who needs someone to point them in the right direction and help them get started, and someone with 6+ decades on this earth demanding free money. This dude is not frugalecon's kid, and it's not anyone else's job to motivate him to find employment.

I tend to agree. A teenager is still learning how to be an adult. Someone in his 60s is often pretty calcified in his ways. This sounds like a lifelong habit for him, one he's had decades to settle into, and one he is fighting hard against changing.

At a certain point, with adults, you have to let people fail in their lives. It doesn't mean you don't care. It's just tough love. Otherwise, they'll drag you down with them, and they still won't change.

Also, it's kind of a parent's job to help their children develop into independent, self-supporting adults.  How ibdfan did that with his daughter is a great success story.  However, the OP's situation is very different in my opinion -- he has no responsibility whatsoever to support his friend or to teach his friend how to support himself.  It doesn't sound like the friend is actually open to learning anyway, but just wants the cash.

frugalecon

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #75 on: August 24, 2016, 06:45:53 PM »
Just in case anyone is interested in the continuing story of my friend, he is still unemployed, alas, though he has had two temporary jobs in the interim. He quit one because he thought he had landed a six-figure position, but it turned out to be a possibly criminal enterprise. (Medicare and Medicaid fraud) He got another temporary gig that lasted a week before he was let go. It sounded like there were personality conflicts. I did end up contributing $1k so that he could make his August rent, but then two weeks later he texted me asking about another $1k so that he could start putting together money for his Seotember bills. I declined because of bills I had to pay and made some suggestions, which were not well received. He has some irons in the fire, but I am not terribly optimistic. I really can't fathom an employer taking a chance on him given how he presents. It is very sad to watch someone fall into poverty.

iris lily

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #76 on: August 24, 2016, 06:56:00 PM »
Just in case anyone is interested in the continuing story of my friend, he is still unemployed, alas, though he has had two temporary jobs in the interim. He quit one because he thought he had landed a six-figure position, but it turned out to be a possibly criminal enterprise. (Medicare and Medicaid fraud) He got another temporary gig that lasted a week before he was let go. It sounded like there were personality conflicts. I did end up contributing $1k so that he could make his August rent, but then two weeks later he texted me asking about another $1k so that he could start putting together money for his Seotember bills. I declined because of bills I had to pay and made some suggestions, which were not well received. He has some irons in the fire, but I am not terribly optimistic. I really can't fathom an employer taking a chance on him given how he presents. It is very sad to watch someone fall into poverty.
How much more money do you thnk you would give him?

frugalecon

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #77 on: August 24, 2016, 07:00:12 PM »
Just in case anyone is interested in the continuing story of my friend, he is still unemployed, alas, though he has had two temporary jobs in the interim. He quit one because he thought he had landed a six-figure position, but it turned out to be a possibly criminal enterprise. (Medicare and Medicaid fraud) He got another temporary gig that lasted a week before he was let go. It sounded like there were personality conflicts. I did end up contributing $1k so that he could make his August rent, but then two weeks later he texted me asking about another $1k so that he could start putting together money for his Seotember bills. I declined because of bills I had to pay and made some suggestions, which were not well received. He has some irons in the fire, but I am not terribly optimistic. I really can't fathom an employer taking a chance on him given how he presents. It is very sad to watch someone fall into poverty.
How much more money do you thnk you would give him?

I have decided that I won't give him any more money, other than small amounts for Xmas and birthday.

MrsDinero

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #78 on: August 24, 2016, 07:10:56 PM »
Just in case anyone is interested in the continuing story of my friend, he is still unemployed, alas, though he has had two temporary jobs in the interim. He quit one because he thought he had landed a six-figure position, but it turned out to be a possibly criminal enterprise. (Medicare and Medicaid fraud) He got another temporary gig that lasted a week before he was let go. It sounded like there were personality conflicts. I did end up contributing $1k so that he could make his August rent, but then two weeks later he texted me asking about another $1k so that he could start putting together money for his Seotember bills. I declined because of bills I had to pay and made some suggestions, which were not well received. He has some irons in the fire, but I am not terribly optimistic. I really can't fathom an employer taking a chance on him given how he presents. It is very sad to watch someone fall into poverty.
How much more money do you thnk you would give him?

I have decided that I won't give him any more money, other than small amounts for Xmas and birthday.

So that means you decided you will give him more money. What is a small amount? 

Also you are not watching someone fall into poverty.  You are watching someone make a deliberate decision to GO into poverty.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2016, 07:12:48 PM by MrsDinero »

frugalecon

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #79 on: August 24, 2016, 07:32:13 PM »
Just in case anyone is interested in the continuing story of my friend, he is still unemployed, alas, though he has had two temporary jobs in the interim. He quit one because he thought he had landed a six-figure position, but it turned out to be a possibly criminal enterprise. (Medicare and Medicaid fraud) He got another temporary gig that lasted a week before he was let go. It sounded like there were personality conflicts. I did end up contributing $1k so that he could make his August rent, but then two weeks later he texted me asking about another $1k so that he could start putting together money for his Seotember bills. I declined because of bills I had to pay and made some suggestions, which were not well received. He has some irons in the fire, but I am not terribly optimistic. I really can't fathom an employer taking a chance on him given how he presents. It is very sad to watch someone fall into poverty.
How much more money do you thnk you would give him?

I have decided that I won't give him any more money, other than small amounts for Xmas and birthday.


So that means you decided you will give him more money. What is a small amount? 

Also you are not watching someone fall into poverty.  You are watching someone make a deliberate decision to GO into poverty.

When he has been unemployed in the past I have given him enough to be able to go out for a decent meal or buy a piece of clothing on occasions like birthday or Christmas. Like $50.

I get your point about his choice.

socalteacher

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #80 on: August 24, 2016, 08:38:46 PM »
If he has a college degree he can go teach English in Korea. He would make about 2K a month and they would pay his housing costs. The COL is quite cheap for food, utilities, healthcare etc..

Dicey

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #81 on: August 24, 2016, 08:53:11 PM »
If he has a college degree he can go teach English in Korea. He would make about 2K a month and they would pay his housing costs. The COL is quite cheap for food, utilities, healthcare etc..
Very interesting...

Thanks for the update!
I did it! I have a journal!
http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/a-lot-like-this/
And hell yes, I am still moving confidently in the direction of my dreams...

With This Herring

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #82 on: August 24, 2016, 10:01:58 PM »
It sounds like you've found quite the money pit.  This thread would benefit from the addition of TheGrimSqueaker.
Because your toaster got hacked because you tried to watch porn on your blender.

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Go soak your beans.  You know you keep forgetting.

Erica

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #83 on: August 24, 2016, 10:06:08 PM »
I'm assuming he didn't pay you back the $1000 you gave him why would you want to give him another $1000?

It doesn't look like your money is really helping him out and in fact might be just prolonging a decision he will ultimately have to make himself.

Just to be clear, the $1000 was a gift, not a loan. He was taking IRA distributions to live on, and he needed to keep his income below a threshold to avoid losing Obamacare subsidy. That was rational, so I helped. He broached it as a loan, but I told him not to pay me back and consider it a gift. I knew his resources were dwindling.
Is your friend Native American? It's possible he could live on a reservation. Does he have HUD Housing or Section 8? If it's section 8, he cannot pay more than 30% of his monthly income for rent. Having section 8 is a blessing. I'd give him the $1000 but insist he get a job. Say it nicely of course :)  These types of jobs are usually in demand and have varying hours. Either a few hours here or there or 24 hr shifts. https://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/npo/5738982001.html. He can take SS now and be building his SS up while working until FRA. It won't stay the same amount each month. He needs to make less than $15,720 per year though or SS keeps $1 for every $2 earned beyond that $15,720. They give it back at FRA. Sounds like he is battling clinical depression yet covering it up pretty well in front of others. You are a great friend

« Last Edit: August 24, 2016, 10:09:49 PM by Erica »

yuka

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #84 on: August 24, 2016, 10:17:53 PM »
It sounds like you've found quite the money pit.  This thread would benefit from the addition of TheGrimSqueaker.

I second this. Frugalecon, if you'd like a precise taxonomy of your particular species of parasitic relationship, we can PM GrimSqueaker. She'll sort you out in a hurry.

Slee_stack

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #85 on: August 25, 2016, 11:27:12 AM »
Yikes, this is a horror story of a read.

I feel very bad....for the OP.

It sucks reading about good-hearted people getting treated like a doormat.


Rosy

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #86 on: August 25, 2016, 12:22:16 PM »
OP - it sux watching a train wreck in motion. I can see why you want to help a friend, but in truth he has many options of living well. What he lacks is the will and the gumption and most likely the mental capacity at least at present, to carry it out.

Obviously there is some social disorder and personality disorder in play, unless he's simply a nasty person. Allowing someone else to crash at his place shows that he can be decent - a thrashed place shows that he has issues.
Even with a spotty work history, he has managed to hold down decent jobs in the past.
It is tough and depressing and demoralizing to see that noone has any use for you any longer. Aging is not easy, when it impacts your job prospects. The interview in which he acted so arrogantly clearly shows that he has totally lost touch with reality and the RL working world.


Giving him money will not fix any of his problems. You have done what you felt was the right thing to do for a friend, although I've read nothing about him ever doing even one nice thing for you:), but surely your friendship was not entirely one sided?

The only thing that would help him is both a kick in the pants and a counselor-life coach who is used to and has experience with people who are stuck in self destructive mode due to mental issues. 

If his brother could help him take advantage of some of the help available, that might be a solution - who knows once the ball is rolling, he may get on board - as long as he is still capable of securing his future.

Yes, do stay away and accept that for the present, nothing you do is helping. Stop stressing yourself out over him.
Perhaps family can help, perhaps he will still come to his senses, before it is too late. Any further financial support will only enable him on the road to destruction.

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #87 on: August 25, 2016, 12:43:45 PM »
It sounds like you've found quite the money pit.  This thread would benefit from the addition of TheGrimSqueaker.

[in my best Lurch voice] You rang?

There's a problem, gang: I recently exhausted my monthly supply of F-bombs on a different thread. I'll do my best but the simple fact is that it's no laughing matter.

Unlike PencilThinStache's mooch-tastic roommate, this aging gentleman isn't able-bodied with lots of future potential. He's in the twilight of his career, at a stage where most people his age have already built or otherwise earned the social, financial, and physical infrastructure that will support them as their bodies and minds slip into the inevitable decline known as old age. All that he has to work with, is what he's got right now. Which isn't much.

Nip, tuck, and supplement as we will, old age comes for all of us. Like Kenny Rogers famously said: "the best that you can hope for is to die in your sleep." For most people in an industrialized country, death comes at the end of an illness or long decline. You gradually set things aside or even lose them outright. Maybe one year it's a high-impact sport. Maybe another year it's a hobby that requires fine motor control and good eyesight, because you can't see as well as you used to. Eventually it's your driver's license. During this process, our physical labor becomes less valuable than it used to be. Our technical skills eventually become obsolete. Our knowledge of human nature, or of institutional memory, may still be sharp but a department or company only needs so many sages. So our economic productivity as income earners must necessarily peak, and then taper off.

Many societies revere the elderly and have room for them as caregivers for children or repositories of knowledge, however eventually it gets to the point where such people require ongoing care and resources from others just to stay alive. At that point, the elder must rely on whatever family, church, or government system is available, along with the resources he or she created earlier in life. For some, the support comes from the family and friends who are repaying favors done and sacrifices made during previous years. Others set aside financial resources. Still others have businesses or income producing assets that they own, which are administered for them by others for their benefit. It comes down to having some legitimate claim on others, and cashing in that claim. There is no other mechanism for human survival in old age, and there never has been.

This is a natural process. We make our beds, and then we lie in them. It has never been otherwise.

Let us now shift our focus from the general to the specific, and consider the plight of this 64-year-old. The critical forks in the path-- the opportunity to develop the kind of character and social skills that would allow him to be employable in the long term, for example-- are long behind him. He lacks a strong social support network because he did not plug into a healthy, supportive group of people and interact with them for years in a positive way, thereby earning the kind of social capital that leads to job offers, shared accommodation, or other help. In fact, he drains the people around him. The more people he drains, the more they pull away in self-defense; the more people pull away, the more he drains the ones who remain. Of course he's got some things going for him: that's how he lures people in close enough to... well, not take a bite, but get them to open a vein for a while.

Barring some last-minute introduction of a codependent willing to serve as a meal ticket for a while, this man truly has few legal options if he wants to continue at his present standard of living. He's been able to live above his real means for quite some time to allow for his present standard of living, which has been unsustainable for quite some time based on his work history and level of social skills.

A person who actually quits a job or is fired over a personality conflict or a bad fit a couple weeks in... is a person who hasn't learned to work with others or who lacks other basic pre-employment skills. By "pre-employment skills" I mean showing up on time, following instructions, interacting with other people in a way that is not belligerent, accepting feedback, taking responsibility for their actions, and following basic cultural expectations about appearance and hygiene. You see the problem a lot more in the teenage-to-early-20's set because people eventually grow out of it. They realize what is expected of them, start doing that thing, get rewarded for it, and learn how to function as an adult. Unless, of course, something interrupts this process which sounds like what happened to the 64-year-old many years ago.

(When I talk about quitting over a personality conflict, I'm not talking about quitting due to unsafe work conditions, illegal activity, or some misrepresentation in the offer, because that's a legitimate response to bad employer behavior. Bad employers do exist. However, they're not the norm. If this 64-year-old has had a series of "bad" employers, then chances are he's the problem.)

So, Frugalecon, my advice to you is this: your 64-year-old buddy is a vampire. Not the Count Dracula predatory kind... I'm talking about the kind of vampire that's created when someone is bitten, drained, and rises from the dead to drain others. He's been, in your words, "unreasonably generous" with other people. So he's opened his own veins, and been bled to the point where he no longer has enough for himself. There's a predictable consequence for this behavior, and you're seeing it play out in front of your own eyes.

Don't open a vein for this guy. You've given him the $1000, but you can see for yourself that it hasn't helped him. All it's done is create a precedent such that "no" will become harder. If you were to give him another thousand dollars, or even ten thousand dollars, a few months from now his problems will still exist, and you've surely realized that he's not going to pay you back. In fact, money you give to him is very likely going to be spewed out his other wounds, to nourish those for whom he's opened a vein in the past. The second you get his blood pressure up above, say, 90/60, he's going to feel strong enough to look around for someone else to share with. This is in his nature. When that recipient in turn begins to feed, your friend's blood pressure will drop again. The more you transfuse, the more he'll allow to be drained. He's a conduit to an infinite resource sink that can and will suck in all available resources, and then some. Your resources are finite, noble Frugalecon. So turn off the blood supply while you can unless you too wish to become a vampire. That would suck.

Your friend's problems will still exist a year from now, or even ten years from now, because he hasn't addressed their root cause and now it's probably too late. The root cause of this man's problem is a set of decisions made and habits developed so far in the past he'd need a time machine to correct them. Have you a time machine? Most likely not. (If you do, please let me borrow it, because I want to go back in time and hang out with Attila the Hun, Vlad the Impaler, and some other persons of interest.) So you don't have the power to help this man long-term unless you're willing to be his meal ticket and subsidize what sounds like some very poor life choices. But if you invite him into your home, especially to stay, you're going to be drained.

My advice to you is to understand and accept the limits of your power and take a massive step back. You don't have to drive a stake through his heart, but you do have to steer clear especially since he's pegged you as a source of money. Also, he's got some teeth: when you offered advice instead of the specific thing he wanted (money), he criticized you for being too "parental" and not "empathic" enough, and suggested that you had a lack of ability in the empathy department because any reasonable empathic person would have shelled out. This is not accurate, of course. It's just some punishment dished out to get you to comply. Standard behavior in parasites whose hosts are escaping: apply a bit of negative reinforcement to get them back in line so as to latch on again. If you allow it, you'll basically be agreeing with your friend that he, and not you, is the authority on how much and how often you ought to give to him. Which is bunk.

Your friend's only viable options for living mooch-free involve a large, voluntary, permanent reduction in his standard of living. He may have to take the Social Security early, and accept the permanent smaller checks. Or he could try for some other means-tested sources of help. Depending on the size of his apartment, he may be able to sublet or split the lease with a paying roommate (instead of someone who's mooching off of him). This of course will require him to be, or become, the sort of person who's worth paying to share accommodations with. He'll have to make some hard decisions and cut loose his existing couch surfer in order to make room for someone who really can help to pay the bills. But the evidence suggests that this guy doesn't make hard decisions. He just takes the path of least resistance and then blames astrology. ("The fault is not in our stars, dear Brutus, but in us, that we are underlings.") So he's most likely going to have to give up the apartment (rent-controlled or otherwise) and move to a place where housing is cheaper and he can cobble together a standard of living proportionate to his income.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2016, 02:59:13 PM by TheGrimSqueaker »
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frugalecon

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #88 on: August 25, 2016, 05:48:21 PM »
As usual, TheGrimSqueaker hits many nails on the head.

I started this thread because I truly was interested in getting some ideas for my friend, who likely faces a difficult life going forward. He has rejected every suggestion that I passed on (after sharing some he texted me that it was "tedious" to justify his strategy...which after two years and eight months has not led to a full-time job...I had earlier misstated the length of his spell of unemployment), so the more useful bits will be the suggestions about strategies I take for setting limits with him.

LeRainDrop

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #89 on: August 25, 2016, 07:57:44 PM »
I agree -- TheGrimSqueaker is very perceptive and wise.  Frugalecon, your heart is obviously in the right place, and I know it's hard to not feel bad about enforcing your boundaries when you see a friend suffering, but it's something that you really are entitled to do and should do.  I hope you will take her advice.

frugalecon

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #90 on: December 28, 2016, 07:58:23 AM »
Just for anyone who is interested in how this story has evolved, my friend was able to find about a month of temp work before landing the elusive full-time job in his field, a feat for someone of his age who has been out of work for almost three years. Unfortunately, that job lasted six weeks before he was let go. I had hoped it would work out for him, but I was concerned after he shared stories of his conflicts with co-workers.

He asked me for help making his January rent, which I did in lieu of the charitable donations I had planned for the end of the year. But it is clear that he hasn't really figured out how to make it work at a job. My strategy for 2017 is going to be to lend an ear, and draw the line at that.

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #91 on: December 28, 2016, 08:17:53 AM »
Thanks for the update.

I'm sorry your friend is still not in a good place, but I'm glad you have realized that his situation is beyond your control.


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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #92 on: December 28, 2016, 08:19:48 AM »
I've been following along without comment, but I'm de-lurking to say it makes me very, very sad that you paid his January rent. You've been given lots of excellent advice, particularly from the awesome GS, yet you have apparently failed to take it. Who does that sound like?
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frugalecon

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #93 on: December 28, 2016, 11:11:08 AM »
I've been following along without comment, but I'm de-lurking to say it makes me very, very sad that you paid his January rent. You've been given lots of excellent advice, particularly from the awesome GS, yet you have apparently failed to take it. Who does that sound like?

I interpreted the GS's message as one of, be realistic and have appropriate and realistic expectations.

In this instance, I decided to direct some end of the year charity to this friend. At the holidays, I thought it would be humane to ease his mind temporarily.

I probably should stop chronicling the saga,  because it probably won't have a happy ending.

Cassie

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #94 on: December 28, 2016, 12:32:12 PM »
Why doesn't he apply for SS and low income senior housing?

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #95 on: December 28, 2016, 12:42:14 PM »
I've been following along without comment, but I'm de-lurking to say it makes me very, very sad that you paid his January rent. You've been given lots of excellent advice, particularly from the awesome GS, yet you have apparently failed to take it. Who does that sound like?

I interpreted the GS's message as one of, be realistic and have appropriate and realistic expectations.

In this instance, I decided to direct some end of the year charity to this friend. At the holidays, I thought it would be humane to ease his mind temporarily.

I probably should stop chronicling the saga,  because it probably won't have a happy ending.

If this was money you were already planning to donate to charity, then I can understand why you chose to give it to him.

however you should really review this thread from beginning to end to see how your giving him more money has not helped.  In the time this thread has existed his situation has not improved.

I don't know what you mean by this won't have a happy ending.  Do you mean for you or for him? 

If you mean for you then I think your view is misplaced because this is not your story there is no "ending" for you.  You can realize there are some people you can help and others you can't, but there is not "ending" for you.

Everything else is his story, it is 100% up to him to decide if he will have a happy ending or not. His responsibility, his story, not yours.


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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #96 on: December 28, 2016, 01:04:44 PM »
I've been following along without comment, but I'm de-lurking to say it makes me very, very sad that you paid his January rent. You've been given lots of excellent advice, particularly from the awesome GS, yet you have apparently failed to take it. Who does that sound like?

I interpreted the GS's message as one of, be realistic and have appropriate and realistic expectations. Um, I'd gently suggest you read it again. It's pure gold.

In this instance, I decided to direct some end of the year charity to this friend. At the holidays, I thought it would be humane to ease his mind temporarily. Key word here is "temporary". FWIW, I give a LOT to charity. I try to make sure it goes to places where it will be well utilized. I work(ed) damn hard for my money. I don't want to see it wasted.

I probably should stop chronicling the saga,  because it probably won't have a happy ending. It already does. You really, really tried to help. You cannot give him your own life jacket or you will both drown. The happy ending is that you lived.
In addition to my thoughts in blue above, I'll second lines 2-5 of what MrsDinero said. Good food for thought there.
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LeRainDrop

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #97 on: December 28, 2016, 05:01:18 PM »
Thanks for the update.

I'm sorry your friend is still not in a good place, but I'm glad you have realized that his situation is beyond your control.

+1

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #98 on: December 28, 2016, 06:21:40 PM »
I have to say, anyone who's been out of work for that length of time but managed to get canned after six weeks at a new job is beyond help.

I know someone with a similar life story. He had a union job paying over $100,000 a year but he never got past what they call "shaping" in all his years at the job. They finally fired him when he was in his mid-fifties.

He decided to buy a bread route with his savings. That lasted a few months, but he lost all his customers because he couldn't wake up early enough to deliver bread.

He's now 68 and living on SS.

I've been watching the train wreck that is his life since 1985, and besides the fact that he's actually still alive, there have been no surprises.

It sucks to see someone go down the toilet, but when they're the one who keeps pulling the flush handle, all you can do is watch.

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #99 on: December 28, 2016, 08:02:55 PM »
I've been following along without comment, but I'm de-lurking to say it makes me very, very sad that you paid his January rent. You've been given lots of excellent advice, particularly from the awesome GS, yet you have apparently failed to take it. Who does that sound like?

What Diane C said. 

Please honestly examine why you can't stop finding excuses to give this guy substantial money.  Paying his January rent isn't $50 for his birthday.  You're empathetic, which is wonderful, but there are lots of people who are productively working to help themselves that could use your empathy. You obviously feel some dissatisfaction in subsidizing your friend's living expenses when the biggest factor in his unemployment seems to be his unwillingness to try to get along with his employer and co-workers.

In May you said (below) that you might be over this merry-go-round of handouts.  Yet, almost nine months later, you're still giving the guy money.


I think the idea of cutting off communication makes the most sense. This episode makes it pretty clear how he views me. He seems to have forgotten that I gave him $1000 with no strings attached just a little over four months ago.

Sorry that this devolved into an Antimustachian Shame and Comedy thread. I really was trying to brainstorm ways to help him, because he is in a very precarious position, and I actually am empathetic and don't want him to end up in homelessness. But I guess I will just let others bail him out in the future.

I would cut off communication, but before I did, I would send a written message so it's clear why you are cutting him off. Tell him you care about him, but you can't stand by and watch him crash and burn, not after you've given him tools to help himself.   Say something to the effect that you cannot afford to take care of him and yourself and that you hope he won't put you or anyone else he cares about in a similar situation.
That may help him see what he's doing, or he may not care at all. Honestly, that behavior sounds like someone hiding a substance abuse problem. Does he drink or dabble in anything that you know of?

He doesn't drink or dabble in anything at all, other than the magical thinking of astrology and psychics. (He was just turned down for a job last week, and he immediately went to see his psychic to find out why. I shudder to think of the cash that he has flushed down the toilet there.)

I appreciate that sending a final message might be the best thing with some people, but it would just escalate into a back and forth on how I am in the wrong. That has happened between us in the past, and I know that it has happened with other people.

I know it must seem strange that I have remained friends with this person, when he is so difficult to manage. But even though he doesn't recognize this, it is because I am empathetic and know that he has needed someone to turn to for support. He just has a narcissistic personality disorder. I think I am over it.

You've said you fear he will end up homeless.  He is months away from being able to take Social Security.  I suggest you let him do so and not shell out more money so he can delay being locked into lower benefits.  The way to delay taking SS is to get a job and support himself. 

What month is his birthday? Is he 13 months from fra or 23? There is almost a factor of 2 difference in the gap he is trying to cover depending on the month. Strategies could differ wildly for 13 months vs 23 months

He has a bit more than a year to go, but his intention was to delay as close to 70 as possible. That is a sensible approach for someone in his situation, but it depends on finding reasonable full-time employment. I know that the data indicate that someone in his situation has pretty low odds of getting a good job. Aside from his age, there are other warning signs that would give an employer pause.

It sounds like he's escaped having to make the choices and trade offs regular people must make because magical, free money always appears to save the day.  He can make choices that will lead to poverty because he won't really be poor, you'll save him!  One of you needs to be a grown up and stop perpetuating this cycle.  I re-read The Grim Squeaker's post and she clearly lays out the futility of your cash donations trying to make this guy's situation any better.  You can stop updating this thread if you no longer want people's comments, but the happy ending I'm hoping for is that you'll learn to say no, actually do it, and stick to it.
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