Author Topic: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend  (Read 94819 times)

Frankies Girl

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #200 on: July 25, 2018, 07:43:23 PM »
Well, I can't say I'm surprised at him ending up couch surfing at this point, but that's lovely that he didn't immediately ask you for more money. And good for you for not offering any after hearing about his situation.

I don't think you're a soft touch or a doormat. I think you are a deeply empathetic person that makes it difficult for you not feel pain when someone you like and consider a friend is in trouble. It makes you more susceptible to jerks taking advantage of you, but it also means you're a more open and caring person than your average human. Good for you for wanting to continue helping where you can in general and not letting this guy's douchery prevent you from being a good and generous soul.


LeRainDrop

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #201 on: July 25, 2018, 08:03:08 PM »
Thanks very much for checking in and providing us an update.

I don't think you're a soft touch or a doormat. I think you are a deeply empathetic person that makes it difficult for you not feel pain when someone you like and consider a friend is in trouble. It makes you more susceptible to jerks taking advantage of you, but it also means you're a more open and caring person than your average human. Good for you for wanting to continue helping where you can in general and not letting this guy's douchery prevent you from being a good and generous soul.

Yes, that's my take, too :-)

partgypsy

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #202 on: July 26, 2018, 10:11:32 AM »
Thanks again to everyone who was so patient on this thread and offered sensible advice. There was a mild breach of ZCP, but I held firm in a way that protected my integrity by not being a jerk, but rather by offering a constructive solution that was of course rejected out of hand.

If people put as much effort into actually working as they did on manipulating people, they would have an easier time of it.

Too true

People do what works. Like for my older brother, pushing people's emotional buttons is what gets him the rewards. Now he doesn't know any other way to live.

Thank you for the updates.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2018, 10:16:37 AM by partgypsy »

frugalecon

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #203 on: July 26, 2018, 10:49:08 AM »
Thanks again to everyone who was so patient on this thread and offered sensible advice. There was a mild breach of ZCP, but I held firm in a way that protected my integrity by not being a jerk, but rather by offering a constructive solution that was of course rejected out of hand.

If people put as much effort into actually working as they did on manipulating people, they would have an easier time of it.

Too true

People do what works. Like for my older brother, pushing people's emotional buttons is what gets him the rewards. Now he doesn't know any other way to live.

Thank you for the updates.

There was an interesting set of posts in another thread (Overheard at Work) that talked about how some people create "strategic crises," and play a game called "YesBut" in which every constructive solution is rejected until the crisis is upon them. (The GrimSqueaker had an awesome post in that conversation.) I have certainly seen these strategies implemented by this person, and others.

partgypsy

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #204 on: July 26, 2018, 11:43:59 AM »
Thanks again to everyone who was so patient on this thread and offered sensible advice. There was a mild breach of ZCP, but I held firm in a way that protected my integrity by not being a jerk, but rather by offering a constructive solution that was of course rejected out of hand.

If people put as much effort into actually working as they did on manipulating people, they would have an easier time of it.

Too true

People do what works. Like for my older brother, pushing people's emotional buttons is what gets him the rewards. Now he doesn't know any other way to live.

Thank you for the updates.

There was an interesting set of posts in another thread (Overheard at Work) that talked about how some people create "strategic crises," and play a game called "YesBut" in which every constructive solution is rejected until the crisis is upon them. (The GrimSqueaker had an awesome post in that conversation.) I have certainly seen these strategies implemented by this person, and others.

What was scary to me, is that my mom, who was codependent with my brother, personality changed the longer she lived with him. She's a smart, capable person. But slowly like him, she started to view the world like a victim, that it's always other people's fault,  that issues are la la la fingers in ears ignored until oops their a crisis and everyone should drop everything to help me deal with my crisis! A classic example is my lil brother who CAN draw boundaries, has the rule no drinking around his kids. One of his kids was having a birthday party. My Mom and black sheep brother came over to celebrate the birthday. Naturally bsbrother found the booze, started drinking and also saying antagonistic passive aggressive things to little brother. So no scene, brother says, you need to go. Mom had to leave birthday party to drive him home. Instead of driving back to party I get a phone call from her about how TERRIBLE lil brother is, that they came to celebrate the birthday, bsbrother just wanted to relax and enjoy himself and and he kicked his own brother AND mother out, not allowing them to celebrate birthday! When it is a clear, simple, known in advance rule that no one else has a problem following.
Like invasion of the body snatchers. 

LeRainDrop

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #205 on: July 27, 2018, 01:33:32 PM »
What was scary to me, is that my mom, who was codependent with my brother, personality changed the longer she lived with him. She's a smart, capable person. But slowly like him, she started to view the world like a victim, that it's always other people's fault,  that issues are la la la fingers in ears ignored until oops their a crisis and everyone should drop everything to help me deal with my crisis!

Same dynamic in my family between my mom and my first brother.  It is so sad the way it ends up impacting all the relationships, and then mom acts like she's powerless to change anything, she just needs to help brother because he needs her, and the rest of us are at fault for being mean or not understanding.  :-(

swampwiz

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #206 on: July 27, 2018, 04:12:37 PM »
He should be able to charge a roommate a lot of money. People will pay 900 a month to sleep on a back porch in sf (actually saw that in an article ). It would be worth it to him to sleep on the couch if its a 1 bedroom. So even if he waited 2 years for ss that still wouldn't cover his expenses?

Do you have a link to that article?

frugalecon

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #207 on: July 28, 2018, 08:15:15 PM »
He should be able to charge a roommate a lot of money. People will pay 900 a month to sleep on a back porch in sf (actually saw that in an article ). It would be worth it to him to sleep on the couch if its a 1 bedroom. So even if he waited 2 years for ss that still wouldn't cover his expenses?

Do you have a link to that article?

The post that mentioned the article is > 2 years old, so the poster might not have a link. My fault for keeping this tale going for so long.

Dicey

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #208 on: July 28, 2018, 09:57:30 PM »
He should be able to charge a roommate a lot of money. People will pay 900 a month to sleep on a back porch in sf (actually saw that in an article ). It would be worth it to him to sleep on the couch if its a 1 bedroom. So even if he waited 2 years for ss that still wouldn't cover his expenses?

Do you have a link to that article?

The post that mentioned the article is > 2 years old, so the poster might not have a link. My fault for keeping this tale going for so long.
Hell, no, not your "fault"! I love it when older threads update. @frugalecon, you have learned from this experience and that's what counts.

better late

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #209 on: July 28, 2018, 10:51:20 PM »
He should be able to charge a roommate a lot of money. People will pay 900 a month to sleep on a back porch in sf (actually saw that in an article ). It would be worth it to him to sleep on the couch if its a 1 bedroom. So even if he waited 2 years for ss that still wouldn't cover his expenses?

Do you have a link to that article?

The post that mentioned the article is > 2 years old, so the poster might not have a link. My fault for keeping this tale going for so long.
Hell, no, not your "fault"! I love it when older threads update. @frugalecon, you have learned from this experience and that's what counts.

I just read this thread start to finish--there's a ton of great insight here. And the part where the "friend" kept escalating the drama when the OP said no and held firm... just incredible. I have a manipulative relative that escalates to try and get what she wants (or what she wants to get away with) but she's an amateur compared to the friend.

frugalecon

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #210 on: August 03, 2018, 06:06:02 PM »
He should be able to charge a roommate a lot of money. People will pay 900 a month to sleep on a back porch in sf (actually saw that in an article ). It would be worth it to him to sleep on the couch if its a 1 bedroom. So even if he waited 2 years for ss that still wouldn't cover his expenses?

Do you have a link to that article?

The post that mentioned the article is > 2 years old, so the poster might not have a link. My fault for keeping this tale going for so long.
Hell, no, not your "fault"! I love it when older threads update. @frugalecon, you have learned from this experience and that's what counts.

Thanks, @Dicey!

frugalecon

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #211 on: September 27, 2020, 07:16:06 PM »
I probably shouldn’t necropost, but I thought that the folks who commented on this thread might be interested in an update. In truth, it isn’t a sad tale. The dude in question has been occasionally employed, more typically (as currently) unemployed, but has found a way to manage without cash infusions from me. I talk to him about every 3 months or so, but he seems to have accepted that my teat has run dry. At the same time, he is living exactly the life he wants. He has published a book that will never have significant commercial success, but which was meaningful in its own way, and he has been working on another project. He lives in what I would consider poverty, but he seems ok with that. Very much living in the moment. Makes me wonder sometimes what I am doing still working with a seven figure net worth.

So what is the lesson I have learned as of today? People are pretty resilient? Have a little more remove from people who are trying to manipulate me? Pause and say, “well, I’ll need to think about that?” “I’m not willing to do X, but I will do Y.” Or just that I really shouldn’t think that someone else approaches situations the way I would, at all. Maybe all of the above. As The Doors sang years ago, “people are strange.”

Dicey

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #212 on: September 27, 2020, 11:17:15 PM »
I love necroposts! I think what you have learned is a LOT! Kudos!

mozar

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #213 on: September 28, 2020, 02:11:08 PM »
I assume you're still working because you want a different lifestyle than your friend. I would find it very stressful to be in a situation where I regularly had to ask other people for money. I also need stable housing for my mental health and there are a lot of hoops to go through to get a mortgage.

Seeing that your friend is so happy with so little though, it is worthwhile to consider how much money is enough.
Congrats on drying up the teat!

NorthernMonkey

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #214 on: September 29, 2020, 09:18:51 AM »
I probably shouldn’t necropost, but I thought that the folks who commented on this thread might be interested in an update. In truth, it isn’t a sad tale. The dude in question has been occasionally employed, more typically (as currently) unemployed, but has found a way to manage without cash infusions from me. I talk to him about every 3 months or so, but he seems to have accepted that my teat has run dry. At the same time, he is living exactly the life he wants. He has published a book that will never have significant commercial success, but which was meaningful in its own way, and he has been working on another project. He lives in what I would consider poverty, but he seems ok with that. Very much living in the moment. Makes me wonder sometimes what I am doing still working with a seven figure net worth.

So what is the lesson I have learned as of today? People are pretty resilient? Have a little more remove from people who are trying to manipulate me? Pause and say, “well, I’ll need to think about that?” “I’m not willing to do X, but I will do Y.” Or just that I really shouldn’t think that someone else approaches situations the way I would, at all. Maybe all of the above. As The Doors sang years ago, “people are strange.”

I've just read the thread from beginning to end. It's a story that everyone can learn from.

Just Joe

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #215 on: October 02, 2020, 10:25:56 AM »
Its been an interesting and worthwhile read. Frugalecon you are an incredibly patient person. Most people would have gone no-contact long ago. Sometimes that is the best choice. You made low-contact work. Good luck to you.

ericrugiero

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #216 on: October 06, 2020, 12:36:31 PM »
OP, you are obviously a person who cares a lot about his friends.  It's easy to sit on the internet and comment about what someone else should do when you aren't emotionally involved.  It's much different when you need to have those tough conversations yourself. 

Sounds like you reached a workable solution that doesn't involve you enabling someone else but you can still have contact and maybe help them.  Plus, you preserved your friendship (even though it's somewhat one sided.)  Bonus points for learning some things along the way.  Overall, it seems like close to the best case scenario short of your friend changing drastically. 

Loren Ver

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #217 on: October 11, 2020, 09:20:29 AM »
Yes an update!  I love it when people actually come back and let us know how things changed and what they learned (since they are the only part of the equation they can control).

Good job OP.

Ladychips

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #218 on: October 11, 2020, 09:22:17 AM »
Yes an update!  I love it when people actually come back and let us know how things changed and what they learned (since they are the only part of the equation they can control).

Good job OP.

+1

frugalecon

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #219 on: August 25, 2023, 06:10:34 AM »
I probably shouldn’t necropost, but I thought that the folks who commented on this thread might be interested in an update. In truth, it isn’t a sad tale. The dude in question has been occasionally employed, more typically (as currently) unemployed, but has found a way to manage without cash infusions from me. I talk to him about every 3 months or so, but he seems to have accepted that my teat has run dry. At the same time, he is living exactly the life he wants. He has published a book that will never have significant commercial success, but which was meaningful in its own way, and he has been working on another project. He lives in what I would consider poverty, but he seems ok with that. Very much living in the moment. Makes me wonder sometimes what I am doing still working with a seven figure net worth.

So what is the lesson I have learned as of today? People are pretty resilient? Have a little more remove from people who are trying to manipulate me? Pause and say, “well, I’ll need to think about that?” “I’m not willing to do X, but I will do Y.” Or just that I really shouldn’t think that someone else approaches situations the way I would, at all. Maybe all of the above. As The Doors sang years ago, “people are strange.”

For any who are interested, here is another short update about this acquaintance of mine. In the three years since I last posted, he has managed to be employed just enough to make ends meet, and he has actually published a second book! We speak occasionally, but never about money. I think overall he has figured out a way to make things work, but that will probably be more difficult now that he is in his 70s. The challenge for him will be to transition to a situation where he is relying on resources for low-income seniors.

I am now getting very close to my retirement date (I am in the 2025 Cohort thread), and he keeps asking whether my spouse and I might move to his city. Even setting things with him aside, that would be very unlikely (moving to the Bay Area in retirement is the opposite of geoarbitrage!), but I am pretty sure that if I lived near him the demands would be so great that it would lead to a ZCP rupture. So it is actually better for him if I live far away, since I will be in a position to maintain some sort of contact with him.

Anyway, I view this whole saga to have been a good learning experience for me, and a way to develop strategies for managing a difficult person. Much of the advice in this thread is gold-plated!

Cassie

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #220 on: August 25, 2023, 08:53:16 AM »
The Bay Area is one of the most expensive places to live in the country. In the 26 years that I have been in Nevada unfortunately the Bay Area has greatly deteriorated. I used to visit but the last time I was there in 2018 it was disgustingly dirty.  Hopefully your friend is on a list for low income senior housing because it can take years. Between SS and so many free or discounted items for poor seniors your friend should be fine.

Catbert

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #221 on: August 25, 2023, 10:38:20 AM »
I'm glad to hear an update.  These are the kind of sagas I remember and wonder about.  I'm glad your friend is doing fine by his standards.

mistymoney

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #222 on: August 25, 2023, 12:54:21 PM »
this was very interesting! thanks for updating through the years. I think it is very useful as people can see the boundary violation and inappropriate expectation very clearly in other peoples' situations, and that can help them see in their own, so likely helped people.

Seemed he took soc sec at 66. Did you know about how much he had? You had mentioned a potential 6 figure job he was looking for so he wasn't a super low waage earner for his career, even if jobs were a bit spotty?

I think like many, he will need to find a way to design a life to live on his social security. If he does get hooked up with the right spot, this could work well.

I know there are senior housing facilities where if you can't afford anything else they just take your soc sec check, give you 50/month spending, and there is cafeteria so you have your 3 hots and cots - without the criminal past.

Ladychips

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #223 on: August 25, 2023, 01:04:59 PM »
I'm glad to hear an update.  These are the kind of sagas I remember and wonder about.  I'm glad your friend is doing fine by his standards.

+1

frugalecon

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #224 on: August 25, 2023, 01:50:54 PM »
this was very interesting! thanks for updating through the years. I think it is very useful as people can see the boundary violation and inappropriate expectation very clearly in other peoples' situations, and that can help them see in their own, so likely helped people.

Seemed he took soc sec at 66. Did you know about how much he had? You had mentioned a potential 6 figure job he was looking for so he wasn't a super low waage earner for his career, even if jobs were a bit spotty?

I think like many, he will need to find a way to design a life to live on his social security. If he does get hooked up with the right spot, this could work well.

I know there are senior housing facilities where if you can't afford anything else they just take your soc sec check, give you 50/month spending, and there is cafeteria so you have your 3 hots and cots - without the criminal past.

I think you are right that ultimately he will need to define a life where his expenses match up to what will be low income. Absent financial infusions from someone else, there really is no other way. (I have an uncle who is also very low income, with limited social security. My sisters and I decided we would each send him a monthly check for a few hundred dollars to help him live a more comfortable life. I am happy to do it. He is very important to my mother, and he was my grandmother’s principal caregiver for many years.)

I don’t know how much this friend’s Social Security is. I estimate it is about $20k/year, based on what he has said. Clearly it is difficult to live in the Bay Area on that. I think he has roughly earned about the same amount of money (i.e., another $20k to supplement Social Security) on a yearly basis, maybe a little more, but that is the average. He tends to be in a “feast or famine” state, where he will get a gig that pays well, but then it ends in maybe 6 months, and he doesn’t work until he runs his savings down to zero. I couldn’t live like that, but it has worked for him longer than I would have thought it would!
« Last Edit: August 25, 2023, 03:58:39 PM by frugalecon »

mistymoney

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #225 on: August 25, 2023, 03:40:11 PM »
this was very interesting! thanks for updating through the years. I think it is very useful as people can see the boundary violation and inappropriate expectation very clearly in other peoples' situations, and that can help them see in their own, so likely helped people.

Seemed he took soc sec at 66. Did you know about how much he had? You had mentioned a potential 6 figure job he was looking for so he wasn't a super low waage earner for his career, even if jobs were a bit spotty?

I think like many, he will need to find a way to design a life to live on his social security. If he does get hooked up with the right spot, this could work well.

I know there are senior housing facilities where if you can't afford anything else they just take your soc sec check, give you 50/month spending, and there is cafeteria so you have your 3 hots and cots - without the criminal past.

I think you are right that ultimately he will need to define a life where his expenses match up to what will be low income. Absent financial infusions from someone else, there really is no other way. (I have an uncle who is also very low income, with limited social security. My sisters and I decided we would each send him a monthly check for a few hundred dollars to help him live a more comfortable life. I am happy to do it. He is very important to my mother, and he was my grandmother’s principal caregiver for many years.)

I don’t know how much this friend’s Social Security is. I estimate it is about $20k/year, based on what he has said. Clearly it is difficult to live in the Bay Area on that. I think he has roughly earned about the same amount of money on a yearly basis, maybe a little more, but that is the average. He tends to be in a “feast or famine” state, where he will get a gig that pays well, but then it ends in maybe 6 months, and he doesn’t work until he runs his savings down to zero. I couldn’t live like that, but it has worked for him longer than I would have thought it would!

Different strokes for different folks!

Dicey

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #226 on: August 27, 2023, 02:18:50 PM »
Thanks for the update. It seems the only one who has been changed by this process is you. Keep sticking to your guns, er, hard-earned boundaries; you're doing great!

Metalcat

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #227 on: August 27, 2023, 02:51:05 PM »
FTR, updates aren't necroposts, they're very welcome, we love a good, unexpected update.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!