Author Topic: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend  (Read 61177 times)

frugalecon

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Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« on: March 29, 2016, 10:35:14 AM »
I have a friend who has been unemployed for 18 months. He now has completely exhausted both unemployment benefits and retirement savings. He has not started collecting SS benefits yet (his FRA is 66), because he doesn't want to get locked into permanently lower benefits. He lives in a HCOL area (SF Bay Area, though he has a rent-controlled apartment.) He is continuing to seek jobs in his field, but he has a history of difficulties in the workplace, leading to a spotty work record, that would be a red flag to most employers.

I fear that he has reached the point where every month will be a scramble for him to put together sufficient funds to make it to the end. Even if he took SS, that would cover maybe half of his expenses. Frankly, he is in danger of homelessness.

Clearly many of his problems are of his own making (aargh, the reliance on astrology and "psychics" drives me CRAZY!), but I am trying to figure out what sort of advice to give to him. I have urged him to consider starting his SS, despite the hit he will take, just so that he has some income. I also have suggested that he try to find any kind of part-time work he can, just to get some money coming in, even temp type work. He hasn't indicated much interest in any of these ideas. I have considered suggesting that he explore food stamps, but he is probably aware of them. Not surprisingly, he wants me to loan him money. I gave him $1000, and I have more or less decided that I am willing to give him another $1000, but no more. It pains me, because he is not a bad person, and, in fact, he has been unreasonably generous with other people. [When he has told me what he is doing, I have wanted to repeat what they say on an airplane: "Secure your oxygen mask before helping other."] That said, I am not willing to become his primary means of support. But I want to make any practical suggestions I can to try to help him avoid homelessness.

The short version is: What advice do you give to a broke 64-year old friend who can't support himself?

tomsang

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2016, 10:39:53 AM »
Sounds like moving out of HCOL may be a good call.  If he is ready to retire, maybe retiring overseas.  He probably can live a very comfortable life in Panama and other Expat type countries.  I think the question that you need to find out is, "What is he willing to do?"  If he is not willing to work menial jobs, move, move in with relatives, etc. then you may want to stop throwing good money to help someone who is not willing to be helped.

Cassie

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2016, 10:56:36 AM »
Has he applied for low income senior housing?  AARP puts retirees to work for 20 hours/week and they pay the wage. When I worked for the state occasionally we would have one working for us.  It doesn't last forever but is for a limited time-I think 6-12 months. YOu would have to check. HOme Depot loves older workers and has been hiring nationwide like crazy for their upcoming busy times.

MrsPete

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2016, 11:04:21 AM »
Sounds like he's made some bad choices along the way, but that's water under the bridge now; aside from serving as a cautionary tale, it's done.  And it's very hard to get a good job at his age.  Age-ism in the workplace is a real thing. 

I was also going to suggest that he move out of the expensive Bay area. 

Any chance he could find a job that provided free housing?  I mean something like moving in with an elderly person who needs help with cleaning, driving, etc.?  Or I once knew a guy who lived for free in a funeral home; they needed someone to occasionally receive night-time phone calls (mainly from the hospital) to come pick up a body -- all he did was the driving, no loading or anything -- and then he'd call the morticians to come meet him and begin the embalming process right away. 

Does he have any children with whom he could  move in?  Siblings?  Friends who'd like a roommate? 

I agree with him that accepting lower SS payments doesn't sound like a good deal, but it seems to be one of his only options.  If he starts SS and works at a part time job (few enough hours that it doesn't hurt him), perhaps he could make it in a lower cost of living area.  It'd be really good if he could find a job that'd give him some perks -- like, if he were working in food service and could bring home slightly old food. 



Fishindude

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2016, 11:12:51 AM »
Must not have any family to help him?

If he has any assets like a house or spare vehicle, he should liquidate them ASAP and get moved right away to a low cost of living area.
To me, the smart thing to do would be to work any kind of job he could get like Wal Mart or Home Depot until he gets on SS, and depending upon his SS earnings may want to keep the job.  But I'm guessing he thinks that kind of work is "beneath" him.

A hard dose of reality is getting ready to smack him in the mouth.   The worst thing to do is nothing.

AZDude

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2016, 11:18:22 AM »
He should leave the bay area and start collecting SS, enjoy retirement or semi-retirement if he wants to get a part-time job. SF Bay area... you have Boise, Las Vegas, Carson City(NV), Phoenix, Tucson, and a host of smaller communities where the $1,200 a month or whatever he gets from SS would be enough.

Living in the Bay Area on just social security is probably not doable.

frugalecon

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2016, 11:18:45 AM »
Thanks so much to everyone for the constructive suggestions, please keep them coming! Unfortunately, this is someone who really has no assets he can liquidate and who has a tenuous social safety net. His relationship with his family is not great, either, though I know one of his brothers is also willing to help him. He has no children. He does have a connection to the Native American community in the Bay Area, which is important to him. I had suggested he move to southern California, where he has family, in part because I worried that he had applied to essentially all employers in his field, and they would automatically reject him as "already applied" for future jobs.

Parizade

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2016, 11:19:48 AM »
It sounds to me like he needs professional help. He is "stuck" in a self-defeating cycle, so he is not going to hear any good advice you give him. He only wants to hear magical thinking (astrology and psychics) and only wants to receive financial support -- no strings attached.

Maybe help him find a legitimate counselor who is new-age friendly, someone who will give him real psychological help but who keeps enough crystals and dream catchers in their office to feel non-threatening to the magical thinking.

Or slip his psychic a bribe, tell her to advise him to take SS and move to a LCOL area.
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iris lily

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2016, 11:22:17 AM »
I would like to live in San Francisco, too.

I can't afford it.

Matumba

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2016, 11:36:30 AM »
He should sublet his rent controlled apartment and move overseas.  Alternatively,  he can rent out a room in the apartment on airbnb.

2Birds1Stone

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2016, 11:47:06 AM »
Have him taste canned cat food, if he doesn't like the flavor he should rethink his financial priorities.
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Northwestie

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2016, 11:53:30 AM »
Sorry to hear about your friend's difficulties.  See this article that has some links to help for folks with similar situations.  I hope his family can step in a bit.

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Low-income-seniors-struggle-in-S-F-3816995.php


Drifterrider

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2016, 12:44:29 PM »
The short version is: What advice do you give to a broke 64-year old friend who can't support himself?

None whatsoever.  It won't take.  If you are a friend, lend him an ear but not a dollar.

Have you ever heard you can't help an alcoholic?  The alcoholic has to help himself.

Same applies here. 

Kris

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2016, 12:50:41 PM »
The short version is: What advice do you give to a broke 64-year old friend who can't support himself?

None whatsoever.  It won't take.  If you are a friend, lend him an ear but not a dollar.

Have you ever heard you can't help an alcoholic?  The alcoholic has to help himself.

Same applies here.

I agree.  You've given your friend good advice, but he has not wanted to listen to it.  I think at this point you have to recognize that only he can make himself change.  There are things he can do, but until he makes the decision to do them, nothing will change.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

Jack

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2016, 12:52:32 PM »
Have him taste canned cat food, if he doesn't like the flavor he should rethink his financial priorities.

FYI, cat food is expensive. Normal human food (including canned skipjack tuna) is cheaper.

Dee18

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #15 on: March 29, 2016, 01:33:25 PM »
I think he is wise to delay taking SS as long as possible.  The difference in benefits is significant.   Also, depending on how much his rent is, he may not save much by moving out of San Francisco. I would really encourage him to take any work he can.  With a $15 minimum wage, a full time worker at a fast food place will make $2400 per month.

Yaeger

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #16 on: March 29, 2016, 01:33:55 PM »
Sometimes the best thing you can do is to let people hit rock bottom. What's unfortunate is that he's learning this lesson so late in life.

CheapScholar

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #17 on: March 29, 2016, 02:15:32 PM »
He needs to move to Portland or something.

This really inspired me.  I've never had the desire to retire "early" but you can bet that when I'm 59 I will have enough in my 403(b) to retire without SS or help from anyone.

Hope this works out for your friend.

MrsDinero

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #18 on: March 29, 2016, 02:22:04 PM »
I'm assuming he didn't pay you back the $1000 you gave him why would you want to give him another $1000?

It doesn't look like your money is really helping him out and in fact might be just prolonging a decision he will ultimately have to make himself.

rweba

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #19 on: March 29, 2016, 02:53:47 PM »
I know a couple of people in roughly analogous situations (educated, older, unemployed, broke) and I just realized that the common thread among them is UNREALISTIC EXPECTATIONS.

They're simply not willing to take a job, any job, or compromise on the kind of life style that they feel they deserve. Hence they feel "stuck" and have to rely on handouts in some form to get bye. In reality they are skilled enough so that if they were to apply themselves to something different than what they are picturing they could at least bring in some income and make forward progress in their lives.

But I take this as an inspiration and a warning: I hope if I ever, God forbid, find myself in that situation, I will be open minded and flexible enough to do whatever I have to do and not cling to any idée fixe of what my life should look like.

retiringearly

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #20 on: March 29, 2016, 03:03:17 PM »
The short version is: What advice do you give to a broke 64-year old friend who can't support himself?

None whatsoever.  It won't take.  If you are a friend, lend him an ear but not a dollar.

Have you ever heard you can't help an alcoholic?  The alcoholic has to help himself.

Same applies here.

I agree 100%.  It has been a very painful lesson for me to learn that you can't help someone that does not want to help himself.

Northwestie

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #21 on: March 29, 2016, 03:26:27 PM »
The short version is: What advice do you give to a broke 64-year old friend who can't support himself?

None whatsoever.  It won't take.  If you are a friend, lend him an ear but not a dollar.

Have you ever heard you can't help an alcoholic?  The alcoholic has to help himself.

Same applies here.

I agree 100%.  It has been a very painful lesson for me to learn that you can't help someone that does not want to help himself.

The thing here that bothers me, is that what if this person, though no fault of their own, is just not capable of making rational decisions?  The pull-yourself-up by your bootstraps speech isn't going to help them.  I've a relative in a similar situation and their brain just doesn't work the way yours or mine does.

Unfortunately there are a lot of folks out there in a similar situation.  What to do?  I can't say I have the answer.  But I do sympathize.

calimom

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #22 on: March 29, 2016, 04:20:20 PM »
I think he is wise to delay taking SS as long as possible.  The difference in benefits is significant.   Also, depending on how much his rent is, he may not save much by moving out of San Francisco. I would really encourage him to take any work he can.  With a $15 minimum wage, a full time worker at a fast food place will make $2400 per month.

If he's been in his apartment for a long time, he likely has great rent control, and may not realize much in the way of savings if he were to move elsewhere. San Francisco is not a bad place to live, no car needed, and decent social services.

It's hard not to feel sympathy for people in this position, even if their problems are quite often the results of poor planning or bad choices. You sound like a caring friend, OP.


frugalecon

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #23 on: March 29, 2016, 04:38:24 PM »
I'm assuming he didn't pay you back the $1000 you gave him why would you want to give him another $1000?

It doesn't look like your money is really helping him out and in fact might be just prolonging a decision he will ultimately have to make himself.

Just to be clear, the $1000 was a gift, not a loan. He was taking IRA distributions to live on, and he needed to keep his income below a threshold to avoid losing Obamacare subsidy. That was rational, so I helped. He broached it as a loan, but I told him not to pay me back and consider it a gift. I knew his resources were dwindling.

frugalecon

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #24 on: March 29, 2016, 06:20:16 PM »

The thing here that bothers me, is that what if this person, though no fault of their own, is just not capable of making rational decisions?  The pull-yourself-up by your bootstraps speech isn't going to help them.  I've a relative in a similar situation and their brain just doesn't work the way yours or mine does.

Unfortunately there are a lot of folks out there in a similar situation.  What to do?  I can't say I have the answer.  But I do sympathize.

I think this is perceptive. He really doesn't approach situations the way I do, which makes giving advice hard. For years he asked me repeatedly to walk him through the basics of IRAs and tax deferred savings, but he didn't get around to doing anything until his late 50s. He sincerely believes that his astrological chart controls everything important in his life. A side effect of that is that he doesn't take responsibility for anything that happens to him. But he is a kind and caring person, and he has skills and insight to offer the world. It just always has to be on his terms. He told me about a job interview he had where he basically told the interviewers that they were doing everything wrong, and if he came to work there he would change everything up. Needless to say, he did not receive an offer. Trying to figure out a way to get him headed in a good direction is a tough nut to crack.

mozar

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #25 on: March 29, 2016, 06:38:01 PM »
He should be able to charge a roommate a lot of money. People will pay 900 a month to sleep on a back porch in sf (actually saw that in an article ). It would be worth it to him to sleep on the couch if its a 1 bedroom. So even if he waited 2 years for ss that still wouldn't cover his expenses?
Embracing the absurd condition of human existence while also defiantly continuing to explore and search for meaning

retired?

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #26 on: March 29, 2016, 06:45:28 PM »
What's his health like?  Delaying may not be the best choice.  Seems if he's made poor financial decisions that he might have made poor health decisions.  Help him to a break-even.

But, if he doesn't have family in SF, I cannot imagine any path that includes staying in SF.

frugalecon

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #27 on: March 29, 2016, 06:53:17 PM »
He should be able to charge a roommate a lot of money. People will pay 900 a month to sleep on a back porch in sf (actually saw that in an article ). It would be worth it to him to sleep on the couch if its a 1 bedroom. So even if he waited 2 years for ss that still wouldn't cover his expenses?

He actually lives in Berkeley, not the City. He has been letting someone in equally dire straits crash in his 1 bedroom apartment. In truth, he lives in a very depressing place (rundown, extremely untidy), so it is hard to imagine someone being willing to pay much to live there.

frugalecon

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #28 on: March 29, 2016, 07:00:27 PM »
I just sent him an email with a link to the AARP information. Seems like they could be a good resource. Hopefully he will take it in the intended spirit. Thanks to everyone for the suggestions. This is someone I have known for almost 30 years. I have "fired" him as a friend before, but he has always struck me as someone who needs a friend, even if he is frustrating at times. Hopefully he will have some sort of breakthrough.

pdxmonkey

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #29 on: March 29, 2016, 09:02:17 PM »
What month is his birthday? Is he 13 months from fra or 23? There is almost a factor of 2 difference in the gap he is trying to cover depending on the month. Strategies could differ wildly for 13 months vs 23 months

frugalecon

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #30 on: March 30, 2016, 03:44:55 AM »
What month is his birthday? Is he 13 months from fra or 23? There is almost a factor of 2 difference in the gap he is trying to cover depending on the month. Strategies could differ wildly for 13 months vs 23 months

He has a bit more than a year to go, but his intention was to delay as close to 70 as possible. That is a sensible approach for someone in his situation, but it depends on finding reasonable full-time employment. I know that the data indicate that someone in his situation has pretty low odds of getting a good job. Aside from his age, there are other warning signs that would give an employer pause.

tooqk4u22

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #31 on: March 30, 2016, 07:03:24 AM »
I'm assuming he didn't pay you back the $1000 you gave him why would you want to give him another $1000?

It doesn't look like your money is really helping him out and in fact might be just prolonging a decision he will ultimately have to make himself.

Makes me thing of scene from Rounders:

Mike McDermott:      What can you do for me? I mean five hundred isn't even enough to get me started

Joey Knish:              Five hundred won't help, what's two grand going to do? What kind of trouble you in?
.
.
.
.

Mike McDermott:      This is the one time I don't need you to tell me how I fucked up, I know I fucked up, what I need from you is money, I need whatever money you can give me

Joey Knish:               That's the thing, this time there is no money, I give you two grand what's that buy you? A day? No I give it to you I'm wasting it

Mike McDermott:       That's fucking great

tooqk4u22

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #32 on: March 30, 2016, 07:12:22 AM »
I think this is perceptive. He really doesn't approach situations the way I do, which makes giving advice hard. For years he asked me repeatedly to walk him through the basics of IRAs and tax deferred savings, but he didn't get around to doing anything until his late 50s. He sincerely believes that his astrological chart controls everything important in his life. A side effect of that is that he doesn't take responsibility for anything that happens to him. But he is a kind and caring person, and he has skills and insight to offer the world. It just always has to be on his terms. He told me about a job interview he had where he basically told the interviewers that they were doing everything wrong, and if he came to work there he would change everything up. Needless to say, he did not receive an offer. Trying to figure out a way to get him headed in a good direction is a tough nut to crack.

I know people like this...sort of float with the wind....no matter what happens good or bad, its not their fault and they believe things will work out - historically it has.   

You know what.....in some respect I am very jealous of these types of people because they seem to be happy no matter what because they don't worry about shit.   

ender

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #33 on: March 30, 2016, 07:38:02 AM »
The short version is: What advice do you give to a broke 64-year old friend who can't support himself?

None whatsoever.  It won't take.  If you are a friend, lend him an ear but not a dollar.

Have you ever heard you can't help an alcoholic?  The alcoholic has to help himself.

Same applies here.

I agree 100%.  It has been a very painful lesson for me to learn that you can't help someone that does not want to help himself.

The thing here that bothers me, is that what if this person, though no fault of their own, is just not capable of making rational decisions?  The pull-yourself-up by your bootstraps speech isn't going to help them.  I've a relative in a similar situation and their brain just doesn't work the way yours or mine does.

Unfortunately there are a lot of folks out there in a similar situation.  What to do?  I can't say I have the answer.  But I do sympathize.


The friend wants $1000 from the OP?  Tell the friend you'll match the first $1000 he makes at whatever his next job is, even if it's at a coffee shop.

It seems a common sentiment is it's somehow more loving to give money unconditionally than it is to have conditions on it. In some cases it is. In cases like this? It most certainly is not, unless you want the friend to be dependent/enabled and still not take any responsibility for his life.

MrsDinero

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #34 on: March 30, 2016, 07:44:23 AM »
I'm assuming he didn't pay you back the $1000 you gave him why would you want to give him another $1000?

It doesn't look like your money is really helping him out and in fact might be just prolonging a decision he will ultimately have to make himself.

Just to be clear, the $1000 was a gift, not a loan. He was taking IRA distributions to live on, and he needed to keep his income below a threshold to avoid losing Obamacare subsidy. That was rational, so I helped. He broached it as a loan, but I told him not to pay me back and consider it a gift. I knew his resources were dwindling.

I think it is great that you gave your friend money when he needed it.  I have done that too in the past, but there comes a point when you, OP, have to realize that just throwing more money at the problem isn't helping. 

There is another thread which has been a big eye opener for me about retirees that don't plan, http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/what-happens-to-retirees-without-a-retirement-plan/msg1023852/#msg1023852

Maybe you can print it out to him and show him what his options will be in a few years.

retiringearly

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #35 on: March 30, 2016, 08:35:36 AM »
The short version is: What advice do you give to a broke 64-year old friend who can't support himself?

None whatsoever.  It won't take.  If you are a friend, lend him an ear but not a dollar.

Have you ever heard you can't help an alcoholic?  The alcoholic has to help himself.

Same applies here.

I agree 100%.  It has been a very painful lesson for me to learn that you can't help someone that does not want to help himself.

The thing here that bothers me, is that what if this person, though no fault of their own, is just not capable of making rational decisions?  The pull-yourself-up by your bootstraps speech isn't going to help them.  I've a relative in a similar situation and their brain just doesn't work the way yours or mine does.

Unfortunately there are a lot of folks out there in a similar situation.  What to do?  I can't say I have the answer.  But I do sympathize.
I sympathize also, but I am not willing to take on the financial responsibility for that person.  I have a few people in my immediate family that fits that bill, it has been brutally painful to realize that I can't truly help them because they won't help themselves.  I do not go to work everyday so they don't have to work.

HipGnosis

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #36 on: March 30, 2016, 10:01:06 AM »
Time to send his friend to a shelter, clean up his place and take what he can get from AirBnB or take in a paying roommate.
Or find a room to rent instead of the apartment?
Does he have a car?
That makes TaskRabbit an option.
If the car is new enough, uber driving is an option.
If new enough and he no longer drives it, he can rent it via Turo  (I just rented from them when my car was in the shop for 3 days).
There's a tread on doing 'other' jobs after FIRE - you may find some options there.

Or he can move in with the astrologist and go to the psychic for meals...

frugalecon

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #37 on: March 31, 2016, 07:15:40 AM »
Thanks again to everyone for the practical suggestions. I consolidated the ones that I felt he might consider and sent them to him a couple of days ago. Haven't heard back, which makes me think that he didn't really appreciate them. I think that he is having a hard time accepting the degree to which his age is working against him. Accordingly, suggestions like reaching out to AARP and senior social service agencies might not be considered as reasonable. (As an aside, he recently dyed his hair to try to appear younger, although a quick Google search easily reveals his actual age.)

iris lily

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #38 on: March 31, 2016, 09:41:34 AM »
The short version is: What advice do you give to a broke 64-year old friend who can't support himself?

None whatsoever.  It won't take.  If you are a friend, lend him an ear but not a dollar.

Have you ever heard you can't help an alcoholic?  The alcoholic has to help himself.

Same applies here.

I agree 100%.  It has been a very painful lesson for me to learn that you can't help someone that does not want to help himself.

The thing here that bothers me, is that what if this person, though no fault of their own, is just not capable of making rational decisions?  The pull-yourself-up by your bootstraps speech isn't going to help them.  I've a relative in a similar situation and their brain just doesn't work the way yours or mine does.

Unfortunately there are a lot of folks out there in a similar situation.  What to do?  I can't say I have the answer.  But I do sympathize.
I sympathize also, but I am not willing to take on the financial responsibility for that person.  I have a few people in my immediate family that fits that bill, it has been brutally painful to realize that I can't truly help them because they won't help themselves.  I do not go to work everyday so they don't have to work.

This bolded thng is good.

Out of curiosity, I would like to know how much he pays formhis rent controlled apartment in SF?
« Last Edit: March 31, 2016, 09:43:26 AM by iris lily »

frugalecon

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #39 on: May 01, 2016, 01:05:43 PM »
Just an update, my friend borrowed enough money from family to get through May, and tomorrow he is starting a 2-day a week temp job. But then today he asked to borrow $1000 from me to go to a conference in June. He needs a vacation. Oy. He told me not to answer immediately, but rather to think about it. Oy oy.

prognastat

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #40 on: May 01, 2016, 02:03:40 PM »
Just an update, my friend borrowed enough money from family to get through May, and tomorrow he is starting a 2-day a week temp job. But then today he asked to borrow $1000 from me to go to a conference in June. He needs a vacation. Oy. He told me not to answer immediately, but rather to think about it. Oy oy.

That sounds like someone that still hasn't realized the situation they are in.

RedmondStash

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #41 on: May 01, 2016, 02:36:31 PM »
It's clear you care about this guy, and you want to help him, and that's laudable. But he is an adult with free will, and no matter how passionately you want him to see reason, he probably won't. The money you give him will probably just flow right through his hands.

I don't have advice for your friend; others here have already covered that well.

My advice is for you, OP: Don't give him more money, not now. Stop trying to change or save him. Back off a bit. Be an ear but not a wallet. Let him hit bottom. See if he figures out how to change on his own, when he has to. Then, you'll have resources to be able to help him, instead of having already exhausted everything you're willing and able to do.

Sometimes you have to separate with love. When he hits bottom, he may change, or he may not. I had a friend who spent money like he was allergic to keeping it. He hit bottom and became homeless, and he never really changed his ways. He found someone to live with who was willing to pay his rent, but he still spends his time doing whatever he likes. Kinda drives me nuts, but I've made my peace with who he is.

It could get ugly. If it does, it's not your fault. Sometimes, people choose the ugly option, and you can't stop them. Accepting that is really hard, but just as you'd tell your friend to put on his oxygen mask first, you must do the same. And if he doesn't want you to put an oxygen mask on him, you have to find a way to make peace with that.

SwordGuy

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #42 on: May 01, 2016, 06:08:00 PM »
Just an update, my friend borrowed enough money from family to get through May, and tomorrow he is starting a 2-day a week temp job. But then today he asked to borrow $1000 from me to go to a conference in June. He needs a vacation. Oy. He told me not to answer immediately, but rather to think about it. Oy oy.

He hasn't had to work for 18 months.

Now he ONLY has to work 2 days a week.

And he has the nerve to ask you for $1000 so he can have a vacation?

I like to help people.  I really do.  But if someone came to me with that proposition I would reply with:

"Fuck off.  It must suck to be you."

And slam the door in their face.


Herbert Derp

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #43 on: May 01, 2016, 06:09:05 PM »
The money you give him will probably just flow right through his hands.

Probably? Didn't he say outright that he was going to spend all the money on a vacation?

frugalecon

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #44 on: May 01, 2016, 07:18:58 PM »
The money you give him will probably just flow right through his hands.

Probably? Didn't he say outright that he was going to spend all the money on a vacation?

Yes, he does want the cash for a trip. It just puzzles me. He just borrowed from his family to tide him over. He is just starting the temp job, the longevity of which is an open question given his past work history. His 18-year old car is on its last legs, and the temp job is a one hour commute in each direction. And he is in arrears on back taxes with the IRS. I just don't get how someone in that situation asks for a loan for a vacation. I have a long history with him, and I don't want to yank the rug out from under him, but I don't get it.

He is not a bad person, just extremely clueless.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2016, 07:47:25 PM by frugalecon »

frugalecon

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #45 on: May 01, 2016, 08:15:28 PM »
The money you give him will probably just flow right through his hands.

Probably? Didn't he say outright that he was going to spend all the money on a vacation?

Yes, he does want the cash for a trip. It just puzzles me. He just borrowed from his family to tide him over. He is just starting the temp job, the longevity of which is an open question given his past work history. His 18-year old car is on its last legs, and the temp job is a one hour commute in each direction. And he is in arrears on back taxes with the IRS. I just don't get how someone in that situation asks for a loan for a vacation. I have a long history with him, and I don't want to yank the rug out from under him, but I don't get it.

He is not a bad person, just extremely clueless.

And just to finish the story, after I emailed him telling him that I wouldn't be able to help, and that based on his finances going into debt further did not make sense to me, he sent me a reply that I pissed him off by being in parental mode and he had overestimated my ability to be empathic. And that he had thought about lying about why he needed the money, so that I would have been more likely to loan it to him.

db_cooper

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #46 on: May 01, 2016, 08:40:32 PM »
Sounds like you know where the friendship stands now. 

Frankies Girl

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #47 on: May 01, 2016, 08:46:50 PM »
The money you give him will probably just flow right through his hands.

Probably? Didn't he say outright that he was going to spend all the money on a vacation?

Yes, he does want the cash for a trip. It just puzzles me. He just borrowed from his family to tide him over. He is just starting the temp job, the longevity of which is an open question given his past work history. His 18-year old car is on its last legs, and the temp job is a one hour commute in each direction. And he is in arrears on back taxes with the IRS. I just don't get how someone in that situation asks for a loan for a vacation. I have a long history with him, and I don't want to yank the rug out from under him, but I don't get it.

He is not a bad person, just and extremely clueless.

Fixed that last part for you.

Why on earth are you even friends with this guy? He sounds like he's a total nutball, and not the fun kind.

You need to let him go as a friend. Just stop taking his calls/texts or block him and let him be responsible for his own mess. He's absolutely a bad person. Maybe not an evil puppy killer, but anyone that is acting the way he is towards friends and family is not a nice person. He's refusing to do anything to improve his situation that requires real work and effort and is mooching off of friends and family that are too nice to say no to him... and when one does finally say "no," he turns on them with nastiness.

He's screwed over many people, has a spotty work history (red flag - he couldn't get along with coworkers either... any place?), and borrows money to enjoy himself (while owing back taxes? Yikes) and avoids being a real, live grown up and he'll get angry with anyone that dares to pull him out of his selfish dream life. You've already said he takes no responsibility for any of his current problems, so he'll just continue doing what he wants as long as there are people that care about him to keep giving him the means to do so (and he'll not want any advice, just money which you've just experienced, and apparently thought about lying to you - and thinks he deserves brownie points for telling the truth? He has NO shame...).

He's a user. He's an asshole. He's a selfish, deluded, kind of stupid asshole. You just didn't see it until now. Sorry, man.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2016, 10:39:41 PM by Frankies Girl »
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Dicey

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #48 on: May 01, 2016, 09:44:30 PM »
Don't know where I heard this, but it's a gem. "Don't help anyone more than they are willing to help themselves."
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Herbert Derp

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Re: Advice for Unemployed 64-year old friend
« Reply #49 on: May 01, 2016, 10:17:08 PM »
How much do you care about him? If you really, really want to show him the error of his ways, get a job at a fast food restaurant that's as close to where he lives as possible. Give him all your earnings, with the physical paystubs to back it up. Do this for as long as you feel is necessary to get your point across. If he refuses to follow your example, I don't see any way for him to possibly claim the moral high ground when you cut him off.

This would take so much effort that I would only consider doing it to a close family member, but I do think it would hit the point home when dealing with someone who refuses to support themself.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2016, 01:00:15 AM by Herbert Derp »