Author Topic: Accountants - am I a bad client?  (Read 5934 times)

GreenSheep

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Accountants - am I a bad client?
« on: November 06, 2016, 10:27:14 AM »
I've had two accountants go south on me in the past year or so, and I'm beginning to wonder if the problem is me.

(Yes, I pay an accountant. And a bookkeeper. I'm an independent contractor, and I work in several states. I'm planning to retire in 4 years, and it's just not worth it to me to learn all this stuff for the next 4 years. I'll do my own taxes post-FIRE.)

The first one just completely disappeared not long before my quarterly taxes were due. I had worked with him for several years, and I thought I was pretty easy to work with. I sent him all required information as soon as I got it, and I asked maybe 4-5 questions via email over the course of each year. The only slightly sour point in our relationship was when I expressed my irritation with him for doing my taxes so late that I had to rush to the post office on April 14 despite having given him all of my information by early February. He was very apologetic, never did it again, and things went smoothly for the next few years. Until he disappeared. I emailed him a couple of times, a few days apart. Then I called his office a couple of times, a few days apart. Nothing crazy or obsessive, and of course I kept my emails and voicemails professional and polite. Even his secretary didn't answer. Then I started checking obituaries. Then I asked my bookkeeper for a recommendation for a new accountant.

The new accountant has been great until recently. He was able to give me a quarterly tax estimate at the last minute after the other accountant bailed on me. (I still have not heard from him, almost a year later.) In September, he said he wanted to touch base in October to make sure I'm on target for taxes, etc. for 2016. So I emailed him about a week into October to remind him, and he said he'd like to discuss it at the end of October because he was working on quarterly taxes for other people and then would be out of town for a week. So I emailed him in the last 2-3 days of October (because I take a quarterly distribution and wanted to be able to get that money and invest it on October 31 rather than having it sit around not earning interest... which is what is happening now), and he said he'd probably be able to get to it "early next week," which was early last week now. I left him alone all this past week and didn't hear a word. Now I suppose I'll have to try to get in touch with him tomorrow.

Am I being too much of a pest? I feel like he should be more proactive. I don't mind if things need to be delayed a bit, but I'd appreciate a quick email just to say he hasn't forgotten about me and will get back to me by X date. Is there something I'm doing that's very irritating to accountants that I'm just unaware of? I don't want to burn bridges without even realizing what I'm doing wrong.

On the other hand, in case he doesn't resurface, or when I move in about a year and need a new accountant anyway, what should I look for to improve my odds of finding a good one?

fredbear

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Re: Accountants - am I a bad client?
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2016, 12:44:05 PM »
I'm the treasurer of a non-profit club where the members do a workday a year.  A CPA who is a member did our taxes for his workday.  Except he didn't, and we incurred a penalty.  And during the year before, he answered no email and returned no phone calls.  (I didn't think 2 calls in a year was an excess, and I still don't.  And like you, I got the stuff in months early.)   Later I was told that he was having a bad year.  My thought was, "Shit.  We all have bad years from time to time.  Unhappiness, divorce, ingrate kids, dying parents; in the midst of life....  But sometime, even in my worst years, I managed to return phone calls."  So I got us a paid accountant.

In college I always thought that the people majoring in accounting were placid.  Even kind of dull, at least compared to the psychology majors.  I must have been way wrong.  I guess for at least some of them their lives are filled with drama which spills over, drama I never suspected.  I thought ours was a problem, so I can hardly imagine that yours actually went dark!  Perhaps he or she was a closet FIRE?  I don't see anything in what you wrote to indicate you are a bad client, and I don't think we can posit some weird form of halitosis transmitted by voicemail or email.  Hire a third one.  For the matter of that, Quickbooks is not that hard, and neither are the Business versions of H&R Block and Turbotax.  Go for it.

Cpa Cat

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Re: Accountants - am I a bad client?
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2016, 02:56:00 PM »
I don't know if you're a bad client. But I disagree with the previous poster who thinks you should do all this with Quickbooks and TurboTax on your own time. Accounting is a chore for most business owners and when they get busy, it tends to be the chore that falls to the bottom of the To-Do list. There's nothing wrong with paying someone to do these things and expecting them to be done in a timely fashion.

It sounds like your first accountant was a reasonably good fit for you and there weren't any major problems that weren't promptly addressed until he mysteriously disappeared. The fact that he disappeared can hardly be blamed on you. You're not his stalker ex-girlfriend. If he wanted to get rid of you, then he could just send you a letter saying you're not his client anymore. So let's assume that some kind of personal issue caused a disruption in his career.

How long have you been with the second accountant? Is this only the second quarter that he's been around? It's possible that he's just not a good fit for you. One problem that many accountants run into is that they get too successful for their own good and fail to either cut  their business off to new clients or hire appropriate help to keep things running smoothly.  Maybe he's just too busy for you. Probably, his vacation is getting in the way here. I'm guessing he booked his vacation for immediately after the Oct 17 extended deadline for individual tax returns and ended up getting behind on non-urgent matters. Your situation does sound fairly non-urgent. I know that it might feel urgent to you, but from your accountant's perspective, nothing is actually due, and it's not clear that he knows you're waiting on his answer before taking your distribution and that he's interfering with your investment plans.

So here's my suggestion - try to get in touch with him this week (assuming he's not out of town, still). If he's unresponsive, then start shopping for another accountant. When you find that new accountant, go into it with a list of "Here's what I'm expecting and the dates that I'm expecting it." If this accountant answers, try to be more clear about your quarterly distribution schedule and the fact that you want to make estimated taxes when you take distributions and need him to be engaged on that schedule.

It's not unreasonable for you to want a specific schedule and a specific turnaround time for your accounting matters. I think your best course of action is getting it added to your engagement letter with him:

Client will provide tax information by XX/XX/XXXX.
Provided information is complete, Accountant will have tax return completed by XX/XX/XXXX.
Estimated taxes will be discussed on the following schedule ... ... ... ...

Sometimes it's hard to figure out who is going to be a responsive, competent accountant, who shields you from their personal-life drama. Cost does not always demonstrate a good accountant. There are some very expensive accountants who have the same issues you're having with these accountants. Years self-employed doesn't really seem to be a great measure, either. Although, I tend to think you should be wary of accountants that are at the end of their career (just anecdotally... they seem to fall behind more... I'm hesitant to say it, because one day I won't be so fresh, but there it is), newly self-employed accountants experience growing pains with figuring out how to be self-employed, but also have more time to deal with issues.

I'm of the opinion that clients should just keep trying until they hit a winner. And always ask for your basis worksheets - every year.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2016, 02:58:08 PM by Cpa Cat »

Kyle Schuant

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Re: Accountants - am I a bad client?
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2016, 05:27:14 PM »
What you are encountering is the truth that most businesses are run quite badly. A very basic level of competence and reliability is unusual and makes a business stand out. This is why businesses exist by referrals and reputations.

Optimiser

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Re: Accountants - am I a bad client?
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2016, 05:52:26 PM »
I'm an accountant, and I didn't see anything that you did wrong.  I've only been doing it for about a year and a half, so I don't have many of my own clients, but I know the partners at my office are usually super busy. I often overhear them saying to clients, "sorry I meant to call you last week, but I just had too much going on."

protostache

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Re: Accountants - am I a bad client?
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2016, 05:53:07 PM »
What you are encountering is the truth that most businesses are run quite badly. A very basic level of competence and reliability is unusual and makes a business stand out. This is why businesses exist by referrals and reputations.

Yep. Good accountants don't necessarily run good businsses.

I am on my third accountant. The first one did an ok job th first year and then ghosted me. The second did the same, doing great and being responsive for the first year and then disappearing. Thankfully I had chosen a firm with multiple people. The president of the firm called me to apogize and say my accountant got fired for unspecified reasons. I've since been transferred to a very good enrolleed agent who responds to my wack-a-doo questions. I have 100% faith that he'll do my taxes with no problems this coming year.


KT's Stache

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Re: Accountants - am I a bad client?
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2016, 07:24:34 PM »
As an Accountant, I would consider you to be an above average client. You certainly are not demanding too much from your accountant. From what you wrote about your first accountant, it sounds like he was overwhelmed with either too much work, or something outside of work taking his attention away (taking too long to get returns completed, and slow response time). Accountants are human too,and often struggle with managing their workload and workflow. I would give the second accountant a couple more reminders in the next week. With the second reminder, I would set a reasonable deadline (3-4 working days) to get a response or an appointment set and inform him that you are planning on leaving if the issue is not resolved in the timeline you set.

Based on your description below, it sounds like you have a balance between being a pest (emailing/calling frequently with short timelines to respond) and a distant client who we only hear from once a year in March, and their business activity is a surprise to both the accountant and the business owner. If you want to find another accountant, I would chat with other business owners you know and find out who is happy with their accountant. Finding accountants is difficult. I have a lot of clients who have been through several frustrating experiences before finding someone they can trust. Good Luck!

arebelspy

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Re: Accountants - am I a bad client?
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2016, 07:30:09 PM »
I've had the same issue, with multiple accountants.  =/

Following to see if anyone has good suggestions, but I think it's just a matter of... it's hard to find a good one. :)
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Cpa Cat

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Re: Accountants - am I a bad client?
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2016, 08:26:12 PM »
If it makes anyone feel any better... I was actually inspired to become a CPA after dealing with a series of incompetent accountants in my husband's company. We even had to sue one of them for damages. After I became a CPA, I ended up working at the same firm, in the same job, as our last accountant (that we did not sue) and had to fix issues in my own taxes that she'd made errors with - because I had her job two years after she'd prepared our returns*, so if I was going to complain to anyone, I would only end up complaining to myself.

Wait... that probably makes no one feel better.

*Even though she told us she was personally preparing our tax returns, when I dug up the files, it turned out that she had delegated the task to a person who had a well-known reputation as "The Most Incompetent Tax Associate Ever To Work At This Firm." I seriously thought about calling her up and yelling at her. I should have recorded my EIGHTEEN calls to the California Franchise Tax Board and sent them to her as a form of sick hate mail.

LeRainDrop

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Re: Accountants - am I a bad client?
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2016, 08:49:33 PM »
I'm president of my condo board.  For tax year 2015, we were underwhelmed by the accounting firm who prepared our taxes and performed our audit.  Our property management company recommended another small firm with an accountant who's supposed to be "the best" for condo associations.  So, for tax year 2015, we accepted her proposals in January 2016, for her to prepare our tax forms and prepare our audit that, under the terms of our condo docs, had to be completed no later than April 30.

Our manager periodically checks in with the firm for updates.  Tax forms were done on time, but still no audit come June.  We had to fire that management company for unrelated reasons and started with a new company on July 1, so the new manager checked in with the accountant.  Accountant said she wanted to talk to me and our treasurer.  So, we had a call with the accountant at the very beginning of July.  She said she had not yet started our audit and needed to come to our property to look through the hard copies of invoices.  We stressed that this audit was due by April 30, under the terms of our agreement and under our condo declaration.  She was just like, "Yeah, that's a guideline but not really necessary."  Uh, no, I am a lawyer, and it is contractually required.  Anyway...

We finally received the audit at the end of August.  Our treasurer quickly noted an error and emailed the accountant.  Accountant responded back that she had "mistakenly attached an earlier draft" when she emailed us before and attached the "final version" now -- the only difference between them was the corrected number that our treasurer had pointed out.

Then it's time to schedule for her face-to-face meeting with our board.  We set up a date.  Then she wants to shift the time so that she can fit in a meeting with another client.  We agree.  Then she cancels.  We reschedule.  She cancels.  Finally, we say F-it and get her to email us the answers to all our questions.

Yeah, totally "the best" accountant, not.  She told us that this year took so much longer because we were a new client and next year will be much faster.  "Next year" we will not be working with her!

Metric Mouse

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Re: Accountants - am I a bad client?
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2016, 12:52:10 AM »
In college I always thought that the people majoring in accounting were placid.  Even kind of dull, at least compared to the psychology majors.  I must have been way wrong.  I guess for at least some of them their lives are filled with drama which spills over, drama I never suspected. 

This thought made me smile. Thank you!

marty998

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Re: Accountants - am I a bad client?
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2016, 05:05:14 AM »
In college I always thought that the people majoring in accounting were placid.  Even kind of dull, at least compared to the psychology majors.  I must have been way wrong.  I guess for at least some of them their lives are filled with drama which spills over, drama I never suspected. 

This thought made me smile. Thank you!

Made me smile too. We're people! With feelings! We're not inhumane robots... yet.

GreenSheep

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Re: Accountants - am I a bad client?
« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2016, 07:13:41 AM »
Thank you all for your reassurance and suggestions. It's nice to know I'm not alone... although it's frustrating to know this has happened to so many other people. (Regarding the comment about referrals and reputations, both of these accountants came highly recommended!) I'll try to get in touch today and see what happens.

Spitfire

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Re: Accountants - am I a bad client?
« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2016, 07:32:34 AM »
You aren't doing anything wrong. If any service provider says they will do something on X date and you don't hear from them by that date, there is nothing wrong with following up. I'm a CPA and when I worked for a firm I noticed that we always did things just before the deadline. Even if I felt we were far along on the project early, it would get slowed up somewhere until a day or two before it was due.

Sorry to hear you're having trouble finding someone decent, I didn't realize decent service was so hard to come by in my industry, maybe I should start my own business. 

BoonDogle

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Re: Accountants - am I a bad client?
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2016, 10:01:48 AM »
Doesn't sound like a good way to do business to me.  Your accountants should keep you updated on the things they are working on for you and contact you as needed to revise the timeline or fill you in on what they have accomplished.

You will have your best chance of finding someone that is competent and reliable by asking other people who they use and what they like / don't like about their accountant.  I good conversation face-to-face with your potential next accountant may give you a feel for whether they will value the relationship.  Ask them pointed questions about how they keep clients informed, methods of contact they prefer, their workload, when you need to have your stuff to them in order to ensure that you don't go on extension, etc.

Like other business relationships, there are no guarantees.  But try to get to know who you are dealing with ahead of time and you improve your odds.

mm1970

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Re: Accountants - am I a bad client?
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2016, 10:41:15 AM »
What you are encountering is the truth that most businesses are run quite badly. A very basic level of competence and reliability is unusual and makes a business stand out. This is why businesses exist by referrals and reputations.
Yes.  I was having a conversation with a friend about work.  We live in So Cal.  He grew up in NM.  We have friends who got married in the small town he grew up in.

He pointed out how hard it was to make a living in that town, and how our town is "So great!  There is so much work.  Literally all you have to do is show up and people are stoked!"

He's a contractor.  I hear that he and his crew do great work.  But more importantly than they, they show up.  That is HUGE.  So many contractors, plumbers, pest control people...just don't show up.

RJCPA614

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Re: Accountants - am I a bad client?
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2016, 12:15:03 PM »
I think CPA Cat's earlier reply sums up my thoughts as well.  Even if there is some complication or problem regarding your situation that doesn't come through in your original post, you should at least receive a returned phone call or email response in a reasonable time frame.
 


CareCPA

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Re: Accountants - am I a bad client?
« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2016, 10:10:05 AM »
I'm way late to this, but I'm also way bored at work.
I don't think you're being demanding. I think accountants in general are bad at customer service: we are numbers people, not necessarily people-people. Keep looking until you find one that meets your needs.
That being said, it really bothers me when anyone in a service industry does not respond to inquiries timely. I always do mine right away, even if it is just to let the client know I am looking further into it. If I'm not getting responses from someone, I move on (I'm doing this right now with a lawyer for a property transfer - he said he could do it and gave me a quote, I submitted the info, and haven't heard back). I just don't have time to waste on people who can't be bothered to respond - they must not need the business that badly.