Author Topic: Academic job market - spendy friend in the precariat [long...]  (Read 8888 times)

Kepler

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Academic job market - spendy friend in the precariat [long...]
« on: September 23, 2017, 02:53:38 PM »
So... somewhat long rant, more to vent than anything else, because I don't want to express the frustration I'm feeling in person to my anti-Mustachian friends...

tl;dr version up top: a friend is making increasingly resentful comments about how easy I have things, when I've been helping them for years with work, and have just realised they are on a similar income...

***

The background is: I have a secure ongoing position in a university, but some recent personnel changes have meant that I've been casting around to see whether I can move somewhere else.  We have enough FU money that, if we needed to, we could live on a single minimum-wage job across the whole household - and sometimes that's actually pretty tempting...  But the current plan is to preserve something like our current income for at least three years, which gives us enough for a modest FIRE, and then reassess when we reach that point to see whether we are happy enough to keep working a bit longer for more of a buffer.  In my current job, I'm definitely not interested in working longer than I have to, so essentially I'm on the market to see whether I can find more enjoyable work for my final stretch.

The academic job market being what it is, and our finances being what they are, I've sprayed applications pretty broadly - including applications for positions that would require a loss in rank or pay, and applications for contract positions that are much more precarious than my current role.  I have paid no attention to the perceived rank of the institution, as long as there is something in the position that looks more interesting /to me/ than my current role...  Ironically - maybe because they think I'm not serious - the positions that would involve a "demotion" haven't even given me a second look, while it's looking very likely that I'll end up with an offer from a much higher-tier institution, with higher pay and much better working conditions, in an already-tenured, secure ongoing role...  That's great if it happens - but I seriously would have been happy with any of the positions to which I applied, and we had been gearing up for either drop in pay (accompanied by a move to lower cost of living areas) or a "precarious" position that might not outlast our three-year minimum planned working period.

I have been very quiet at my institution about the fact that I'm applying elsewhere, except for my immediate manager, who knows everything, and a friend who is also on the job market.  The friend has a complicated history.  They had a good, stable, full-time position that they gave up to pursue a PhD (not in a high-demand field).  They did receive a scholarship, but it was a significant reduction in pay from what they made before, so they also needed to take on a lot of teaching to make ends meet.  I am /sure/ I must have had the "you know it's really hard to get an academic job?" conversation with them, but they are an adult - older than me, in fact - and at base it's their business what they want to do with their life.  They are an exceptional teacher, and I have been helping them get both teaching and research assistant work for many years.  This year, I also helped their partner get the first job they have had after an extended and confidence-draining period of unemployment.

My friend finished their PhD not too long ago.  I set them up with a research fellowship to help them get some more publications (and then ended up helping with the actual publications... my name's on them too, but not proportionately to the work...).  Their publication rate is not high enough, in my opinion, to be very competitive.  They are very picky about where they will live, and about the kind of position they will take.  They are putting in almost no applications - I've applied for twice as many positions in the past six months, and I'm not in any sense desperate for a job.  I've discussed my own rejection rate with them, because they seem to be feeling personally insulted by the rejections they have received so far - but I've been rejected by more places than they've even applied to - that's just the nature of the market...  I've shared my application materials, so that they can get some ideas about how to approach the market.  I've pointed them to resources for improving their application.  (To be clear, this was all after they asked for help.)  But, at base, they are approaching the market as though they are sort of offended at having to demonstrate why they are worth the hire, and, well... it's a buyer's market...   Recently, they applied for a position at my "rank" (which is... not an entry-level position) at our institution, and were expressing great confidence about at least being shortlisted, and then seemed shocked when I gently said that the position might not actually consider applicants straight out of a PhD.

They are genuinely very distressed, and it's distressing for me to see them in this position.  Some of the distress is about their very real financial precarity, and the stress from not knowing whether they will have a job in the future.  At the same time, from my point of view, they are also not being serious about their finances.  They travel overseas every year, for long periods of time - like, multiple months - and this a non-negotiable expense, from their point of view.  Again, they are adults.  This is their business.  I have never offered financial advice, although I have been helping with financial crises for years by helping them get more income through work (and they have never, ever asked for loans or anything that: they do want to earn their own way).  But they spend a lot of time offloading their stress onto me, and I then end up spending time scouting out work to help them get out of serial financial jams...

The reason I am posting, though, is that the volume of distress has gotten much greater recently and, along with it, a growing expressed resentment grounded in the perception that, because I have a secure, permanent job, I am much wealthier.  Now, I am objectively wealthier (although most of that wealth is still locked in forms that I can't access until retirement), but that's because I save more than half my income...  I had been assuming that maybe my salary was genuinely a lot higher, and so I'd been biting my tongue when these sort of resentful comments were made, but my friend recently said something about their taxes that made me realise that their household income must be almost identical to ours - and, given that a decent portion of our income is investment-related, this probably means that our household take-home pay is almost certainly lower than theirs. 

I should have worked this out sooner, because I have a rough sense of their incomes from having facilitated jobs for them, but I'd honestly never thought about it, and had sort of taken at face value the declarations about how much easier I had things because of my stable job.  But I had never really thought about it, and it's made me sort of retrospectively irritated that I've been swallowing some years of barbed comments about how much easier we have things because I've "made it" in an academic career.  I'm sure that things are intensifying because it's now looking likely that I'm going to get this offer from another institution - and this is a sufficient jump in prestige that it's being processed as another "unfair" way that I'm "making it" when they aren't.  There's also the basic material issue that the other position is far away, so I obviously won't be in anywhere near the position I have been to help them organise work.  I understand the psychology of why my friend might be resentful. 

But there is also a growing bit of me that is going, "You have a higher take-home pay and a smaller family: take a couple years off overseas travel or reduce expenses in other ways, and dig yourselves out of this mess..."  And I don't want to say that, because, again, their life priorities are not my business.  But I don't want to be resented for the benefits from my household's priorities...  So I guess this post is about depositing my irritation here, so I don't say something in person about things that are really none of my business... ;-P

marty998

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Re: Academic job market - spendy friend in the precariat [long...]
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2017, 03:17:03 PM »
Comparison is the root of all misery.

Repeatedly you say in your post that they (misquote) "are an adult, and can make their own decisions".

You've given enough help IMO, leave them be.

ixtap

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Re: Academic job market - spendy friend in the precariat [long...]
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2017, 04:29:50 PM »
... and then seemed shocked when I gently said that the position might not actually consider applicants straight out of a PhD.
I might be missing something, but in my field, you are only considered "straight out of a PhD" if you just finished your degree. If they have done a postdoc wouldn't they be an early career research?

In my field you are straight out of PhD until you have had a tenure track job.

Kepler

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Re: Academic job market - spendy friend in the precariat [long...]
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2017, 04:43:30 PM »
Hi folks - they received their doctorate last year, and haven't had anything that would be called a postdoc [edited because I think I've figured out the source of the confusion: the research fellowship was actually organised just before they had finished their doctorate, and then continued a bit after they had received it, so it wasn't a postdoc].  They've had some research assistant work and lots and lots of casual teaching.  Our system works a bit differently to the US, but they are applying mainly for positions that would already be "tenured" in the US - which isn't absolutely impossible for the right person (I have a student now who's about to submit, who I think could potentially be competitive for positions a couple ranks up - but I wouldn't regard even that person as a shoe-in for them, just as someone where I wouldn't think it's insane that they would apply).

That said, I wouldn't think many people could jump straight from a postdoc into a tenured position either...

But yeah marty998: coming to that view too...
« Last Edit: September 23, 2017, 04:45:37 PM by Kepler »

Kepler

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Re: Academic job market - spendy friend in the precariat [long...]
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2017, 05:07:59 PM »
Interesting. Mind if I ask what field since that might have a lot to do with it? I know a couple professors (EE, CE, CS) that spent a couple years in industry before going back to academia and I've heard that is actually a major plus for hiring committees.
......
In the US I think you need to be really special to get offered a tenured position, but graduating and starting a tenure track position isn't that uncommon. Depends a lot upon your specialty though.

Industry experience can be very highly valued here, and is more or less my own trajectory (I spent 10 years outside academia after getting my masters, and frankly never intended to end up back in a university, but was unexpectedly offered a PhD scholarship when I was on maternity leave with a newborn, and it seemed like a good lifestyle match for a few years...  I had actually intended to go back into industry, but ended up getting an offer for an ongoing academic position about a year before the PhD was submitted, and right on top of the financial crisis, so it seemed prudent to take it...

My friend has industry experience of a sort, although increasingly stale, but they're not interested in academic positions that could leverage those skills... 

I don't think graduating and getting a tenure /track/ position is unusual (although, given the job market, there is also no guarantee this will happen).  But my friend is applying for positions that would normally be higher-ranked than that.  Again, the system isn't quite the same as the US, so my first appointment was actually an "ongoing" position, in the sense that I couldn't have been sacked easily - but it would have been regarded as equivalent to a US tenure-track role.  I'm now a couple promotions up from there, so I would be regarded as holding a position equivalent to tenure in a US university - it's taken me basically the same amount of time to get to that status, as well - about six years post-PhD. 

I think some of the issue is that my friend is "norming" on my career progression, but they don't actually have anything like the same career.  So they think it's perfectly reasonable to go straight from a PhD into a position of the rank I hold, at the same institution, because, in their head, they've been teaching and researching across the same years that I've been at this institution, and it just feels to them like I've been disproportionately rewarded, while they still don't have an ongoing job.  There are a lot of dimensions to my job that they don't see, so they assume we are doing much more similar things than we are, and I'm generally fairly quiet in social settings about things like research productivity.  So I think they're increasingly baffled by how I keep progressing in my career, because they aren't thinking about the consequences, on the academic job market, of my completing my PhD six years before they did...

maizefolk

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Re: Academic job market - spendy friend in the precariat [long...]
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2017, 06:48:16 PM »
It sounds like a combination of a lot of things. One question I had though was whether or not your friend is likely to have a clear sense your income? Where I work this gets published once a year so everyone can see how much they make relative to everyone else and leads to no end of hurt feelings.

It's possible that if they have an unrealistic view of what jobs they are likely to be competitive for they also have an unrealistic view of the average compensation of local-equivalent-of-tenured-professor-goes-here.

Kepler

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Re: Academic job market - spendy friend in the precariat [long...]
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2017, 08:06:02 PM »
lhamo - yeah, I have pointed them at TheProfessorIsIn - you have to adapt the content for our field and market, and some of it isn't as applicable outside the US, but at the very least the advice there sort of sets a floor under how bad an application should be...  I agree about the non-gratitude too - I guess that dimension of things has sort of accelerated quite suddenly.  I have helped a lot of people find short-term work, because the period of precarity in academic careers genuinely does suck, but most people sort of attack the job market a bit more seriously - or leave academia (which often makes more sense, especially if people have any industry skills).  What's thrown me recently has been the explicitly expressed resentment about how well I'm doing, which is a bit different to not being grateful that I've been able to help out...  And I agree it probably does suggest I'll have to back away.  I'm just a bit startled by it.

maizeman - if they don't know my income, it will be from being remarkably incurious: everything is published, including the date of my personal last promotion, so it's even possible to work out exactly where I would be on the "bands" in between major steps in the salary tables.  My title indicates my rank, so there's no mystery there.  They know my partner is just a PhD candidate at the moment, and the scholarship value is also a matter of public knowledge - but they may assume my partner does more work on top of this (we have young kids, so my partner is a stay-at-home parent around doctoral studies at the moment, but my partner has held teaching and research positions in the past).  But if my partner did have a higher income, it would be through topping the scholarship up through the same kind of precarious academic work my friend is complaining about... 

I think it's more likely that my friend doesn't understand what their /own/ income is.  I was able to deduce what it must be from a casual comment about taxes, but they have made comments before that have implied that they think it is much lower than this.  I think they are looking at their bank balance and their debt, and not thinking that it might be outputs rather than inputs that are the key issue...  Both my partner and I have had periods of being the sole-wage-earner for our household on casual teaching salaries alone, and frankly, the income was fine (at least at my institution - I don't know for sure whether this is true throughout the sector here) - it's not like the US where you really can't make a living doing this.  Health care for major issues is public, so there's not an insurance trap.  There is also a decent social safety net, especially for people with kids - but their tax comment lets me know that they are too high-income to qualify for that...

I think they probably do have an unrealistic sense of compensation, but I'm not sure /why/ - although a general passivity around financial issues probably explains a lot of the elements of this...

okits

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Re: Academic job market - spendy friend in the precariat [long...]
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2017, 08:41:19 PM »
This situation brings to mind this quote:

Quote
Mark Twain — 'If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man.'

Sorry your friend sucks, Kepler.  If you want to give the friendship a chance to recover/give them your point of view in the hopes it will help them turn things around/want to call out the shitty behaviour then you can have an honest talk with them.  Otherwise, this sounds like life-sucking crap that no one needs. 

ShortInSeattle

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Re: Academic job market - spendy friend in the precariat [long...]
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2017, 09:23:00 PM »
You seem very invested in this person's struggles. As to your issue with them, I see three options.

1) Ignore the barbed comments. (maintain the status quo)
2) The next time it happens, call them on it and ask them to knock it off.
3) Decide this person is an ass, and cut back on the energy you're throwing their direction.

I like option 3, with 2 as a reasonable fallback if you value this relationship. The whole situation sounds dramatic and petty to me, I don't get why you're even engaging. Someone who is irrational and envious is the type to torpedo others, I hope you aren't using them as a reference.

Best of luck, OP. 🙂


Kepler

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Re: Academic job market - spendy friend in the precariat [long...]
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2017, 01:35:07 AM »
okits - ha! yeah, I'd heard that one before, but hadn't thought about it recently...  I guess it fits...

ShortInSeattle - yeah, I've been doing 1, but 3 is where it's heading.  To be clear, the drama is really new in this relationship.  I've known this person for over a decade - I met them originally when they were in their earlier profession, and they took one of my classes (when I was a PhD candidate myself, teaching casually), testing out whether they wanted to do a PhD.  There was a gap between that testing-the-waters class and when they later enrolled as a PhD candidate, and we started doing some things socially then.  There were no dramas at all when they were in their original profession.  Then, when they made the jump into the PhD, there were let's say annual financial crises, but never any negativity toward me.  I point lots of people toward best chances for short-term academic work, so I didn't think of pointing them toward work as anything unusual. 

For years, even though we've worked in the same place, we would catch up maybe once or twice or month - and it wasn't unusual to go a couple months here and there without catching up at all, due to our respective schedules not lining up.  Our conversations were generally about family, or hobbies, or politics, or their ongoing attempts to get me to spend money on things I wasn't going to spend money on - there were differences, but no meaningful tensions, if that makes sense.  It's really only in past six months that things have gotten weird.  They call a couple times a week, drop in on me in the office, and generally interact much more often than would have been the case.  And these interactions overwhelmingly have this distressed, resentful dimension to them - before this, I would have said they were a very calm, laid back person.  They had financial issues due to what I perceived as a kind of live-in-the-moment orientation - I never would have pegged them for professional ambition or competitiveness.

So I agree that it's dramatic and petty - but I guess I've been engaging because the whole thing strikes me as out of character for the previous decade of interaction.  I both feel like I have become somehow much much more symbolically important to them than I used to be, and that the whole interaction has become much more negative.  I guess this post was provoked by my realising this probably isn't just going to fade away and go back to "normal", so I'm going to have to deal with it...

former player

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Re: Academic job market - spendy friend in the precariat [long...]
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2017, 04:56:04 AM »
You do have the opportunity, next time they drop in on you and start complaining about money to say "I've noticed lately that you do seem distressed about money.  I suspect that as a family we earn less than you do, but we are careful about how we spend it so that we don't have to worry about it.  If you are interested I can point you in the direction of a couple of websites that explain our financial philosophy."

Either they will take you up on it or they will be so embarrassed/disgusted/ashamed that they never complain to you about finances again.

Similarly, if they start complaining about careers, say "It's a pity that your PhD is not in a high demand field, because that means that an entry level job in a less popular location is your best bet for a permanent position.  Once you get that first job, though, I am sure your talents will enable you to progress quickly."

Again, if they are offended by this, no loss.  If they don't take you up on it, the next time they start complaining about their career, just say "I'm sorry that's how it is for you" and change the subject.

andreamac

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Re: Academic job market - spendy friend in the precariat [long...]
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2017, 05:17:39 AM »
Sounds like you need a break from them and the new position elsewhere will be perfect timing. It sounds like they have been using you for a crutch for so long, they actually expect you to do these things. I'm not a confrontational person in general so I would be polite but not as helpful as you have been.

I've been in a similar situation with my sister, she is always feeling like we have it easier than her and her husband. The reason why is because I don't complain about every situation we go through (i.e. my husband was off the whole summer looking for a job) but since we are financially stable it wasn't a problem. In her case she lives paycheck to paycheck so this would of been devastating... She feels like she always get the short end of the stick but 90% of the time it's her decisions that put her there. I listen to her complain and say sorry to hear that. I stopped offering her advice since she would always have an excuse why that wouldn't work for her family.

In the end, I think it's really hard to help people when they aren't flexible to change. Since she is family, I have to listen to her somewhat, but we do choose our friends fortunately! Good luck in your new position.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2017, 05:19:46 AM by andreamac »

DirtDiva

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Re: Academic job market - spendy friend in the precariat [long...]
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2017, 07:58:55 AM »
You seem very invested in this person's struggles. As to your issue with them, I see three options.

1) Ignore the barbed comments. (maintain the status quo)
2) The next time it happens, call them on it and ask them to knock it off.
3) Decide this person is an ass, and cut back on the energy you're throwing their direction.

I like option 3, with 2 as a reasonable fallback if you value this relationship. The whole situation sounds dramatic and petty to me, I don't get why you're even engaging. Someone who is irrational and envious is the type to torpedo others, I hope you aren't using them as a reference.

Best of luck, OP. 🙂

Agree.  I would add to #2- tell them their comment makes you feel like you're being attacked, and ask them what's really on their mind or what they mean by that comment.  It might open up an interesting convo, or it might shame them into cutting that shit out.

Frankly, I would not stay in contact with a "friend" like this, unless there are fun and interesting bits to them that you didn't mention. 

Laura33

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Re: Academic job market - spendy friend in the precariat [long...]
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2017, 09:06:17 AM »
So if their behavior is out of character, why not say that directly?  I.e., what is going on with the snarky comments?  We've been friends for years, and this isn't like you.  I understand you are worried and stressed, but it is absolutely not fair to take it out on me.

And if they persist on the financial security front, I'd be even more direct (but polite):  you do realize we make less than you, right, and that we are financially secure because we have been saving half of it for many years?  Or if they persist on the job front:  I worked my ass off to get these opportunities, and I work my ass off every day to do it well, in a hundred ways that aren't visible to an outside observer.   And then I'd wrap up letting them know that you are sorry for their hardships, but that it is frankly insulting for them to assume that you just lucked into an easy life/easy job/cushy paycheck.  Especially given the (uncompensated) help and support you have made time to give them for years.

FIFoFum

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Re: Academic job market - spendy friend in the precariat [long...]
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2017, 10:08:48 AM »
In general, a friend is someone who is happy for you when good things happen in your life. Not someone who uses that as an opportunity to be jealous, cutting, or ungrateful.

There are times when people's life circumstances make it tough for them to be happy for us - for example, a friend struggling with infertility may have an especially hard time going to your baby shower. 

A 10+ year friendship should be able to survive some of these blips, especially if you have good communication about what's bothering you or what's going on. But what you're describing sounds less like friendship and more like a mentorship relationship with friendly pleasantries. As a result, the other person (the mentee) doesn't feel or act on happieness for you for your own successes and achievments. They are only viewing you through the one-sided lens of what you give them or do for them and whatever it is, it appears to not be "enough" to break through some resentment and entitlement on their side.

Hargrove

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Re: Academic job market - spendy friend in the precariat [long...]
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2017, 11:06:58 AM »
+1 to Laura's suggestion to ask about the snarky comments.

The root of this is that nobody anywhere wants to make their life's work a thing that nobody values (and which can't support their family).

That said, this person's expectations of the job market are divorced from the obligations it creates of them, and their expectations of their academic pursuits are steeped in a fear of wasted time and energy.

You can't fix these things, but to be a friend to someone who is apparently taking some of this out on you, you have to be either more willing to let the comments roll off or more willing to bring up the inappropriateness of them. You can't fix their financial situation, but you can address how you're going to be treated.

Your anecdote about the overseas travel is the sum of the problem: "my unsustainable spending is not negotiable."

Kepler

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Re: Academic job market - spendy friend in the precariat [long...]
« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2017, 11:25:42 AM »
A 10+ year friendship should be able to survive some of these blips, especially if you have good communication about what's bothering you or what's going on. But what you're describing sounds less like friendship and more like a mentorship relationship with friendly pleasantries. As a result, the other person (the mentee) doesn't feel or act on happieness for you for your own successes and achievments. They are only viewing you through the one-sided lens of what you give them or do for them and whatever it is, it appears to not be "enough" to break through some resentment and entitlement on their side.

Yeah, I think this is a good insight - I wouldn't have regarded this as a hugely close friendship, but I'm in a workplace where for various reasons most of my relationships need to remain very arms-length professional (lots of factional infighting, and the best way I've found to navigate this is to be aggressively neutral about all factional stuff, but this has meant not socialising with anyone who's factionally engaged...), so it's one of only a couple of actual friendships with people I've met at work. 

snacky - I've pointed out a couple of things along these lines that have brought them up short and gotten a situational apology - I'm from a "poor" socio-economic background, for example, with a sort of comically Dickensian family who stole thousands that I had saved for university when I was 16... and I've pushed back with that when my friend has gone on too long about my "advantages".  They've had the grace to look embarrassed and apologise - but it hasn't stopped the same thing happening again in later conversations.  I wasn't quick enough on my feet with the household income realisation - I was too startled by it at the time, and we haven't spoken since. 

I suspect, though, as others are saying, that this has gotten past the point where bluntness will "work" in the sense of resetting the dynamic in any meaningful sense.  Like Laura33 says: I find this whole situation really insulting and, while I have pushed back in a sort of factual way, I don't think I've communicated my affect around it, in part because I had been assuming that, at this particular moment in time, I really was much better off in some immediate income sense: I was orienting to the whole situation as though they really were in a currently  low-income situation, regardless of whether they'd made poor decisions in the past, and this had made their stress seem more... objective, I guess?

The next time it happens, I will see how they respond to an approach that just points out this dynamic, and explains how it makes me feel.  I will admit that one reason it's personally upsetting is that I feel like it replicates something that happened when I first got this job - not from this friend, at that time, but from a number of colleagues.  Basically, I got my job, through a competitive process with dozens of applicants; necessarily this means that lots of other people didn't get the position...  Several of those people were so furious that they filed equal opportunity complaints (I am female, in a male-dominated field: the complainants were male and argued that I only got the job do to some sort of unfair female thing - one insinuated I must have slept my way into it; one posted campus gun massacre threats on my professional website).  There were also about twelve months of juvenile, physical bullying following the hire, as well as some psychological stuff like rape threats left on my desk.  I reported it to my manager and HR, and it did eventually stop, so maybe they even did something about it...  But mainly I did my damn job, I did it really well, and I earned my promotions - which, here, are evaluated outside your hiring department, so your performance evidence has to be strictly objective.  So it kind of rankles disproportionately that someone whom I would have thought was a friend, and who knows this history, would essentially be behaving as though I somehow lucked into all of this...

I realise this is all /my/ psychological freighting, and I have no reason to assume that my friend is specifically trying to push these buttons.  But let's just say I'm feeling a bit prickly...   

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Re: Academic job market - spendy friend in the precariat [long...]
« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2017, 11:35:42 AM »
Several of those people were so furious that they filed equal opportunity complaints (I am female, in a male-dominated field: the complainants were male and argued that I only got the job do to some sort of unfair female thing - one insinuated I must have slept my way into it; one posted campus gun massacre threats on my professional website).  There were also about twelve months of juvenile, physical bullying following the hire, as well as some psychological stuff like rape threats left on my desk.
BiB  Ye gods.  Congratulations on sticking with the job through all that and coming out the winner.

Kepler

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Re: Academic job market - spendy friend in the precariat [long...]
« Reply #18 on: September 24, 2017, 11:48:56 AM »
Ye gods.  Congratulations on sticking with the job through all that and coming out the winner.

To be clear: I normally would have walked... but my (now-ex) DH had run up almost $40,000 in secret debt in my name - I discovered it when I had to front the money for a plane ticket to the job interview, and didn't have enough space for the ticket on an "emergency" credit card that I thought was never used...  This wasn't the only issue in that relationship (there was an affair - and a child from the affair!), but it certainly underscored that we weren't going to be able to salvage it... 

So I needed the income...  Divorced the partner; cleared the debt; met and married my new beau - and we have been saving happily ever after...  I found this site just as the debt was cleared, when it had dawned on me that, now that the debt was gone, the money was just going to start piling up, and I wasn't sure what to do with it, so I was googling around for financial strategies...

ElleFiji

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Re: Academic job market - spendy friend in the precariat [long...]
« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2017, 12:49:37 PM »
I think that you may have nailed it when you said that your friend doesn't understand her own income - I know a lot of complaint pants who see markers of success - like being able to temporarily manage on one income, and assume that the person is making lots. The other thing is that people in gig type economies sometimes focus on current income and expenses and don't add up for the year

maizefolk

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Re: Academic job market - spendy friend in the precariat [long...]
« Reply #20 on: September 24, 2017, 01:02:21 PM »
Basically, I got my job, through a competitive process with dozens of applicants; necessarily this means that lots of other people didn't get the position...  Several of those people were so furious that they filed equal opportunity complaints (I am female, in a male-dominated field: the complainants were male and argued that I only got the job do to some sort of unfair female thing - one insinuated I must have slept my way into it; one posted campus gun massacre threats on my professional website).  There were also about twelve months of juvenile, physical bullying following the hire, as well as some psychological stuff like rape threats left on my desk.  I reported it to my manager and HR, and it did eventually stop, so maybe they even did something about it...  But mainly I did my damn job, I did it really well, and I earned my promotions - which, here, are evaluated outside your hiring department, so your performance evidence has to be strictly objective.  So it kind of rankles disproportionately that someone whom I would have thought was a friend, and who knows this history, would essentially be behaving as though I somehow lucked into all of this...

Ye Gods indeed. So maybe the headline here is that it looks like you may get a great offer to go work a much better job in a different city and leave this toxic environment behind. Congratulations for that.

Academia can be stressful and toxic enough on its own, especially those first few years in a PI level position, I cannot imagine trying to navigate those years while also having to tolerate the behavior you describe.

akzidenz

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Re: Academic job market - spendy friend in the precariat [long...]
« Reply #21 on: September 24, 2017, 02:59:23 PM »
I imagine that—in general—it's rare to know what struggles someone had to get them to their present situation. I am enormously impressed at what you've had to weather to get where you are now, and these are surely details I wouldn't know about you if I'd met you in a professional situation.

Many people have the grace and reserve to realize there's often no reason to resent or judge someone's success—and if they do feel that resentment, they don't express it directly (especially if the person is a friend or mentor!). I've had my fair share of (probably) unfair resentments towards friends, and I try to find ways to deal with it and not hurt the other person. That looks like what you're doing here—venting to us so you don't hurt your friend.

My impression is—totally separate from the assumptions about professional ability and career trajectory—your friend just doesn't have the grace that you do when it comes to these things, and you are witnessing the results of that.

Kepler

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Re: Academic job market - spendy friend in the precariat [long...]
« Reply #22 on: September 25, 2017, 02:01:38 AM »
So, on a happier note, I met another friend for lunch today - he was a work friend too, but poached several years ago by a university in another state, so we don't get to catch up in person often.  I've always assumed he was frugal, but we've never directly discussed it.  I wasn't sure why he was in town, but during lunch he sort of looked down at the floor and sheepishly confessed that he was in a sort of strange situation where maybe he and his partner might be sort of able in a couple of years to sell off their house, and sort of... maybe something like retire? And so might be moving back to the area to live by the beach.  I laughed and said we were on a trajectory to doing the same thing in a few years.  It was like two people from the same religious cult coming out to one another... 

Laura33

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Re: Academic job market - spendy friend in the precariat [long...]
« Reply #23 on: September 25, 2017, 08:08:49 AM »
Basically, I got my job, through a competitive process with dozens of applicants; necessarily this means that lots of other people didn't get the position...  Several of those people were so furious that they filed equal opportunity complaints (I am female, in a male-dominated field: the complainants were male and argued that I only got the job do to some sort of unfair female thing - one insinuated I must have slept my way into it; one posted campus gun massacre threats on my professional website).  There were also about twelve months of juvenile, physical bullying following the hire, as well as some psychological stuff like rape threats left on my desk.

Ummm, holy shit.  Question: is your friend male?  If so, older + male + male-dominated field in which people somehow think its ok to insinuate a woman must have slept her way into a job = your friend could share some of that same entitlement feeling that those other guys did.  In which case fuck him.*

Might I also suggest not phrasing it in terms of your "feelings"?  Just because that's such a stereotypical girl thing.  The problem is that "feelings" are always subjective, whereas your friend's insulting behavior is an objective fact.  If you frame up a discussion around how it makes you feel, it gives the other guy the ability to dismiss your legitimate complaints as you being "overly sensitive."**  Don't undercut your own argument like that. 

I actually like the calm, fact-based approach you described; I just think you can expand your discussion to the implications of those specific facts.  E.g., when they say that it is unfair that you have these opportunities, it's not that you "feel" insulted -- it is insulting, because it assumes you are not qualified for the job, that you do not deserve what you have worked for, etc.  So I would say it in those terms -- complaining about the "unfairness" of my job offer is incredibly insulting; I am highly qualified and worked my ass off to earn that opportunity; you know for a fact that I did not have it "easy," because I have talked very openly with you about the sexism and hostility I faced when I first got here; and I am not going to put up with that same attitude from someone I thought was a friend.  You can be happy and supportive of me, as I have been for you for years, or you can leave.  Etc.

*Ummm, in the figurative sense.  Not literally.

**The caveat is that with a "real" friend, you do want to frame things up in terms of feelings -- in those cases, you assume obliviousness instead of bad intent, and so you want to make the friend aware than when they do/say X, it makes you feel Y, and so you'd appreciate it if they wouldn't do/say that any more.  But that's not what's going on here.  This isn't a clueless friend; you've raised the issue several times, and they have not changed anything, so you have now passed the point of honest efforts to reach understanding.  What you have now is a friendly professional relationship that has crossed the line into unacceptable behavior, and this conversation is designed to set a boundary so your "friend" understands that you are not going to put up with this behavior any more. 

spokey doke

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Re: Academic job market - spendy friend in the precariat [long...]
« Reply #24 on: September 25, 2017, 08:47:51 AM »
Repeatedly you say in your post that they (misquote) "are an adult, and can make their own decisions".

You've given enough help IMO, leave them be.

Yes, take your repeated observation seriously and let it go...

I've been through variations on this a number of times, and their are hordes of PhD's who believe that all that hard work and accomplishment ENTITLES THEM to a tenure track job, often in a part of the country they would like to live in.  Many (/most?) of them end up bitterly disappointed. They may be in that group and they may not be...accept that you have been a good colleague in assisting them (even if they have not (fully) acknowledged that...which seems to be the sticking point).

On the other front...I recently said FU to my fairly cushy but demoralizing full professorship to do something more meaningful to me...making just enough to cover some of our annual expenses as a hedge against sequence of returns risks as we move into (quasi)FIRE.  Responses were split between shock and vicarious joy.

maizefolk

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Re: Academic job market - spendy friend in the precariat [long...]
« Reply #25 on: September 25, 2017, 09:04:37 AM »
To follow up on what lhamo said, another consequence of that same pyramid shaped hierarchy is that the idea of obtaining a tenure track position becomes really idolized among grad students and postdocs. While it really can be much better position than something like a teaching adjunct or a research assistant professor, I think this tends to lead to people discounting advice they might receive on the negatives and downsides of a career in academia, even if you do land a tenure track position. After all, if it isn't such an amazing job, why are so many people trying so hard to get it?*

*To be clear, averaged over the course of a year, I like my job a lot, but there are plenty of downsides that people warned me about all through grad school and my postdoc that I shrugged off and didn't take seriously until I got a position of my own.

spokey doke

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Re: Academic job market - spendy friend in the precariat [long...]
« Reply #26 on: September 25, 2017, 09:08:34 AM »
I think it may also be worth mentioning for those who aren't up on the current political dynamics of academia (Kepler clearly is, with the mention of the precariat in the title of this post) that there is an underlying current of real socio-economic distress in the academy these days.  Higher education in the developed world, and probably most of the developing world for that matter, is an extremely steep pyramid scheme.   In order to fund the continual expansion of the scheme, including an increasingly top-heavy bureaucratic administration structure, universities are relying more and more on low-paid graduate students and adjunct/contingent faculty to do much of the day-to-day work of teaching and research.  Tenure track positions are few and far between even as graduate programs have expanded their enrollment (to get tuition dollars and free/low-cost labor) well beyond what the academy can absorb in terms of new (or even replacement) hires.  There is a growing movement on the part of those at the bottom of this pyramid to critique the system -- a critique that is I think necessary and important, but I think sometimes the systemic critique can be all too easily diverted into individual attacks.   

Kepler, it sounds to me like your interlocutor has a strong urge to set you up as a straw man representing the inequities of "the system" while not acknowledging how you had to fight that system yourself to get where you are.

I almost included in my post: "I'll spare you the lecture on the ethics of overproducing PhD's"...and I think your last comment is on track, depending on the subject in question's fortunes on the market.  If it doesn't go well, I imagine their will be many targets of their bitterness and resentment.  I also imagine some of that will be well justified, because in many cases, it is an awful scam.  Acknowledging that, I have little patience for folks who express entitlement (frustration I understand...). 



Kepler

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Re: Academic job market - spendy friend in the precariat [long...]
« Reply #27 on: September 25, 2017, 09:41:38 AM »
So much great stuff in the recent replies...

On the precariat/academic ponzi scheme issue: yes, this is exactly right.  It was why I opted out of a PhD initially: I took one look at the academic job market, sized up my odds, and went into IT...  Even when I went for the PhD, it wasn't with an intention of actually ending up in academia as a career - again, the odds are just low, regardless of talent.  It happens to be the case that I have a very unusual mix of skills and, while I wouldn't say that mix is exactly in demand, if an institution does have a position for it, there aren't as many competitors as there would be for many academic roles.  So I've sort of fallen into a niche, but when someone comes to me wanting to apply for a PhD, we have an extended series of conversations about why they want to do this, and whether and how they can use their degree outside academia.  As a result, I have a lot of candidates who are actively planning for non-academic careers (sometimes the PhD will be useful for those careers, and sometimes they just want to do a PhD - in this country, the basic cost is covered, so you don't go into debt for them, and it can therefore be a more rational thing to do just for personal fulfilment...).  But I have also inherited candidates who weren't with me from the start, but transitioned over after an earlier supervision ran into trouble, and a lot of these folks are just true believers in academic careers, and it's amazingly difficult to renorm that to a realistic set of expectations...  I have two candidates right now that I think /ought/ to make it, one of whom I think probably /will/ make it, because they are just so exuberantly mega-productive, and work in an area where there's potential practical applications and funding.  But I also have lots of people who were, in my opinion, sold a bill of goods when they were, effectively, lured into the field.  The ethics isn't /as/ bad as in the US, because at least they aren't running up debt, but they are still creating a PhD-sized hole in their potential professional careers, so there is a real financial risk... 

To be clear, I didn't supervise the person I've been talking about in this thread, but I think lhamo is right that somehow I have become "The Man", presumably because doing this kind of thing to anyone else risks burning professional bridges.  So, on L.A.S.'s point: I'm sure rationally they know I can't do anything, but I'm within reach, and what they're really angry about isn't...

maizeman - I'm constantly evaluating whether I feel like, on average across the year, the job is worth it.  On the one hand, even at my current institution, I have /so much/ flexibility - which has really been invaluable through two periods of maternity leave and then pre-school-aged kids.  I've been wondering if my internal calculus on this will change once the kids are in school...  On the other hand, the position actually specifically impacts the /intellectual/ side of what I do.  I'm quite "productive" research-wise, but I'm 90% sure that I'm less productive than I would be if I just took contract IT work for half the year, and sat at home writing for the rest...  One hesitation is that there is some lingering prejudice toward "independent scholars" - if you want to influence academic discourse specifically (influencing industry practice is another matter entirely).  But this is an area where really I've been on the fence.  Maybe the new job will be better.  But I'm not going for the job in the confidence that it will be - I just figure it's worth the attempt...  But spokey doke: I may be following you out the door pretty soon...  it's really a very close call... 

PizzaSteve - that's interesting - I didn't know that specific vocabulary, but I've been aware of the general risk.  To be clear, although this story probably suggests that I'm a bit doormatty, I'm actually a very effective negotiator in the workplace: pay is not really negotiable here, but working conditions are, and mine are exceptionally good by institutional standards, because I have been very aggressive about citing my accomplishments and pushing for what I want.  (HR must dread me - I generally get my managers on side pretty quickly, because they know my value, and they know that I know my value, but HR always try to hold the line.  Every year, something has to be fought out with them.  I always win.  But hope springs eternal I guess...)  I've managed successfully to navigate two periods of maternity leave during my period here - and you can imagine, given the other context, how well that went down initially - it took full-on self advocacy to get what I needed, so I can do that.  It /is/ important to me to mentor early career academics - particularly women but, given the gender ratios in the environment, there are mostly men - but this hasn't caused this kind of issue before. 

Laura33 - I have the same worries about "feelings", given the gender dynamics.  I tend to be a ruthlessly "them's the facts" kind of person in professional spaces.  The blurry line, as you say, is about how much this is a professional interaction, and how much it's a friendship one.  I had been "processing" it as a friendship, but it may need some recalibration...  And yeah: friend is male, although I've been trying to keep things generic (although the potential that they would lurk this forum to recognise themselves in my posts is, I think, vanishingly small, there's always some potential that someone else from the institution does...).


Kepler

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Re: Academic job market - spendy friend in the precariat [long...]
« Reply #28 on: September 25, 2017, 10:59:52 AM »
On the precariat/academic ponzi scheme issue: yes, this is exactly right.  It was why I opted out of a PhD initially: I took one look at the academic job market, sized up my odds, and went into IT...  Even when I went for the PhD, it wasn't with an intention of actually ending up in academia as a career - again, the odds are just low, regardless of talent.  It happens to be the case that I have a very unusual mix of skills and, while I wouldn't say that mix is exactly in demand, if an institution does have a position for it, there aren't as many competitors as there would be for many academic roles.  So I've sort of fallen into a niche, but when someone comes to me wanting to apply for a PhD, we have an extended series of conversations about why they want to do this, and whether and how they can use their degree outside academia.  As a result, I have a lot of candidates who are actively planning for non-academic careers (sometimes the PhD will be useful for those careers, and sometimes they just want to do a PhD - in this country, the basic cost is covered, so you don't go into debt for them, and it can therefore be a more rational thing to do just for personal fulfilment...).  But I have also inherited candidates who weren't with me from the start, but transitioned over after an earlier supervision ran into trouble, and a lot of these folks are just true believers in academic careers, and it's amazingly difficult to renorm that to a realistic set of expectations...  I have two candidates right now that I think /ought/ to make it, one of whom I think probably /will/ make it, because they are just so exuberantly mega-productive, and work in an area where there's potential practical applications and funding.  But I also have lots of people who were, in my opinion, sold a bill of goods when they were, effectively, lured into the field.  The ethics isn't /as/ bad as in the US, because at least they aren't running up debt, but they are still creating a PhD-sized hole in their potential professional careers, so there is a real financial risk...
Minor rant since I see this a lot the perpetuation of it causes a lot of problems, but you really should say what your field is when talking about the job market. There are a lot of people that think the only reason to get a PhD is because you want to go into the academic job market. While it is true that for the most part you need a PhD for an academic job, there are also a lot of fields where if you want a research position you need to have a PhD. In my case (specializations in sustainability and environmental policy modeling, as well as computational social science) I'm going to apply for TT jobs, but I'm anticipating ending up in either government policy making or a research lab, both places where the PhD is more or less mandatory to apply for the job in the US.

I want to withhold that information just for purposes of identity protection - there are probably already enough hints here for someone who knows me well, to pick me, but I don't want to make it completely obvious...  But this is in fact why I said that I have career discussions with prospective students before they apply: there are definitely ways to use PhDs outside academia - I didn't need one myself (although it's possible someone entering the area now would), but I supervise a number of candidates where the PhD is needed, or will help their career progression, in a research-oriented professional field.  In that scenario, the period spent obtaining the PhD is not necessarily a hole in the career progression (although I will often suggest that candidates in this situation try to dual-track - maybe take a /little/ longer to progress through the PhD, to leave enough breathing room to pick up some meaningful professional experience during their candidature).

However, when I have taken over supervisions initiated with other people, one commonality is that - sometimes regardless of the original intention of the candidate - people are being supervised as though academia is the only option, or the only "respectable" option, or an option where the student has somehow "failed" if they can't get a tenure-track role, or whatever.  I think /this/ is pernicious and also greatly increases the odds that people will hang around in the precariat for much longer than they should, rather than actually mobilising their PhD professionally.  There are some differences in how I supervise candidates whose first choice is academia - publication strategy needs to be different, networking during candidature needs to be different, and there are potentially some implications for research focus as well.  But I still think it's ethically important to lay out the reality of the academic job market before jumps into a doctorate while specifically and solely wanting an academic job.

Laura33

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Re: Academic job market - spendy friend in the precariat [long...]
« Reply #29 on: September 25, 2017, 02:51:56 PM »
I am now seriously girl-crushing on you, Kepler!

+1

clarkfan1979

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Re: Academic job market - spendy friend in the precariat [long...]
« Reply #30 on: September 25, 2017, 10:27:36 PM »
When I started grad school in 2004, I had a very realistic goal of getting a tenure track job at some sort of teaching institution. When in grad school, I made sure I took advantage of all teaching opportunities at the University and local community college. Pretty much 90% of my fellow grad students in my cohort said that they were going to get a tenure track job at a R-1 school.

Now 13 years later, 0% of the grad students in my cohort landed an R-1 job. I can only think of 1 grad student that was 3 years ahead of me that got a job at a R-1 institution. The weird part is they ended up quitting after 3 years. Maybe it was too much work?  They must have gotten burned out, because they didn't switch jobs. They just straight up quit.

I have a tenure track job at a community college and it's awesome. The academic prestige is low, but the work/life balance is amazing. I wouldn't even take an R-1 job if it was offered to me.

I also get frustrated with people who are not realistic about their job prospects. I think it's silly when some of them don't want to leave town after grad school. However, it's very difficult to get a job as a academic by not leaving town. If your plan was to never leave town, you should have never gone to grad school. It was a waste of time. 

 

Hargrove

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Re: Academic job market - spendy friend in the precariat [long...]
« Reply #31 on: September 25, 2017, 11:00:49 PM »
On the one hand, I totally hear the issue of people not being realistic about their job prospects. On the other, I'm curious what percentage of the population can expect good job prospects.

I'm not sure if we're more complainy-pants these days, or every field is squeezing the crap out of its aspirants, or both. There are so many graduates I wonder how many fields can hold half of the plucky newcomers they get, in and out of academia. Ok, so you didn't major in juggling, you're a lawyer, you got good grades, you did unpaid internships until you passed out, but you just... didn't land that first sweet gig. Or the second. Now rent's late. All that debt is money that doesn't circulate in the economy. Maybe you DID major in juggling and now you're teaching 30 aspirant jugglers they can all hope for the one job you have for the low price of 25k/year plus textbooks. That's toxic. It's not just in academia - it just happens that many academic jobs are purely academic jobs, so it's more visible when you don't have as many alternate paths. We're selling hope, and we're selling it for a LOT.

It's easy to say "move to where there are jobs," but you're still competing against 1/3 of the population who also may be moving "to where there are jobs" if you're a degree-holder in the US, and there's so much "I'll do anything for a foot in the door" that mills are getting rewarded for just burning people out (who can't afford to burn out).

National degree registry. Expected jobs in field vs degrees awarded. Mandatory participation for all colleges. Still can't believe this isn't a thing. "College isn't a business" my bum.

Kepler - I'm sure you can't share much given your concern for giving too much identifying information, but I really hope there were consequences for whomever left rape threats on your desk. The need for the extensive "self-advocacy" and the casually offered violence and the pathetic "sour grapes" displays are really dismaying. I was shocked to realize how much more political nonsense and unabashedly rude conduct goes on in academia. I guess I will have to be content with imagining the FBI analyzing the threatening notes. Good for you that the selfish, fearful, and violent reactions didn't (apparently) make you cynical.

Kepler

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Re: Academic job market - spendy friend in the precariat [long...]
« Reply #32 on: September 26, 2017, 06:35:36 AM »
clarkfan1979 - yeah, there are some differences here between countries.  So, for example, there's not really anything comparable to the community college system here - there are some broad rankings or 'tiers' of universities, but all universities are research-degree-offering in some sense (there is also a vocational training system, but that isn't really parallel to the US community college system).  There's also a lot less institutional specialisation here, although successive governments have tried to lure/coerce universities into becoming more differentiated - but, again, we're just fairly small, so the 'market' is very different.  At the same time, the cost of research degrees is covered by the government (unlike BA and coursework postgraduate degrees, which are usually funded by loans - the loan system is less rapacious than in the US, but it's still a hefty financial investment).  This can mean that it can be perfectly rational for people to do a research degree just for personal fulfilment - I have a couple candidates who have retired from their first career, don't really need another professional job, and are doing a research degree as a form of personal fulfilment/means of giving something back from their accumulated knowledge. 

That said, if people really want an academic job, they still need to be willing to be mobile.  Universities do tend to congregate around a small number of big cities here, so you might have multiple options for where to work in a major metropolitan area, but really you have to be very lucky to be able to stay in one place.  If you're in a low-demand specialisation, really it's safest to be willing to relocate internationally (and to strategise for this during your PhD, since the structure of degrees here can create some issues for competitiveness on the international academic job market unless candidates approach them in the right way...).

Hargrove - no, unfortunately we never worked out who did that.  The original threat was made online - and was disturbingly specific and made reference to a then-otherwise-unpublished talk I had given at a recent conference.  I was about to go overseas for a series of presentations though, I by the time I got back, I had actually forgotten about it.  I went to my office, dropped some stuff off, went to a meeting - and, by the time I got back, someone had printed out the online threat and left it on my keyboard...  A couple days later, it popped up again in my mailbox...  We never worked out who did it.

The person who threatened to go postal was less cautious, and used their professional email in a form when posting the threat to my professional website...  Those kinds of threats are not as credible here as they might be in some other places, because gun ownership is restricted.  I had more concern that they might actually commit suicide on campus, than that they were serious about taking other people with them when they did...  Their stated grievance was that they had a hallway conversation with the person who had been the most recent hire before me - who was male - and that person had discussed starting to try for a family with his wife.  This had led, I guess, to pleasant thoughts about how maybe they would be the next hire, and could get a partner and settle down themselves - which were dashed by learning I had gotten the open role...  So, basically, it was a sort of pristine rant where the logic was that they needed a job to get laid, and a woman stole that job, and this justified violence.  I emailed them to say I thought they needed counselling - and to refer them to the university staff counselling service - and to tell them that I had to report their threat for their own and others' safety.  They absolutely freaked out, but that was the end of it - the university took things over from there, and I never heard another word.

There was low-level bullying for a period - real high school stuff.  We had a printer in a central area: people would grab my printouts and shred them...  I would be walking to a lecture I needed to deliver, and people would grab the door and not let me leave the building...  I would be sitting in a coffee shop, and people would sit on either side of me in a booth to block my exit...  This stuff was just stupid, and I wasn't particularly bothered by it - I understood that it was meant to be intimidatory, and certainly they shouldn't have done it, but I wasn't /internally/ thrown by it the way I was by the more serious things.  I did report it, and I also did things like moving my office to a different location and moving to a different coffee shop...  (I will say: I became less Mustachian in one specific respect in response to this: I stopped bringing lunch to campus, because the place was just so toxic that I had to be off-campus to keep my sanity - and I also needed to be near enough to be available for meetings and such.  So I lurked coffee shops like a caffeine addict and happily paid my coffee rent just to have some place to be that wasn't in the middle of all of this...  I also negotiated telecommuting arrangements where viable, which I still do today.)

One bit of comic relief in all this was that the position was responsible for this huge undergraduate lab course, which was delivered by a team of casual academic staff who had already been hired at the point I was appointed.  They were all guys, and I knew they were among the people disgruntled by my appointment.  I had been steeling myself and sort of role playing in my head how I was going to manage interacting with them all term, when the "leader" of the group came to my office to inform me that they were all resigning in protest.  It was like a week before the term was scheduled to start, and I assume they thought this would deal a dreadful blow.  It was all I could do not to burst out laughing in relief during the meeting.  I don't like to be a prick about the academic precariat, but I had replaced all of them within three days, and it was /such/ a relief to have a fresh start with people I could interview and bring in on my own...  "Don't throw me in that briar patch boys!  No no!  Please don't quit!  However will I manage without you?"

Hargrove

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Re: Academic job market - spendy friend in the precariat [long...]
« Reply #33 on: September 26, 2017, 06:56:34 AM »
That's hilarious.

"Your reports have made us very uncomfortable. It's getting significantly more difficult to harass you all the time what with supervisors starting to get cranky with us about it. So you're going to get what's coming to you - we decided to solve this problem the best way possible."

Oh?

"Yes'm. We're all out. If we can't be curmudgeons for grossly disrespectful culture, then we don't want to play anymore, so you'll have to hand-pick subordinates who walk in knowing you're already the person in charge. Take that."

I. O... kay. Than- er... sorry to see you go.

Having dealt with useless or damaging employee culture before, I overwhelmingly prefer the "hassle" of resetting the culture that doesn't respond to several carefully delivered mandates for change vs. cajoling adults to behave properly. Only around 1 in 2, in my experience, acknowledge obnoxious behavior and cut it out just from a conversation (typically, it's when they look up to you in the first place), which is disappointing, but I think your quick answer was the miracle most people hope for.

okits

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Re: Academic job market - spendy friend in the precariat [long...]
« Reply #34 on: September 26, 2017, 08:52:53 AM »
Kepler, I'm so sorry you experienced such hostility, bullying, and criminal harrassment.  I admire your fortitude and tenacity.  Your so-called friend can shove his entitlement and jealousy up his ass.

Askel

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Re: Academic job market - spendy friend in the precariat [long...]
« Reply #35 on: September 26, 2017, 10:35:03 AM »
Interesting reading, thanks for posting from the mentor side of the relationship. 

I'm still sort of toying with an academic career (read my journal if you want the gory details). While I enjoy many parts of the PhD, I'm not sure I have the stomach for pursuing a tenure track career.

I think your posts highlight something I've always been uncomfortable with- how weirdly competitive academics can get. While nowhere near what you've had to deal with, I've been witness to all sorts of bad behavior from people who feel they deserve something somebody else got.  Add in a precarious financial state that many young academics are in, and it's just gas on the fire.

I've never understood where this motivation comes from. It's not like stabbing a colleague in the back over a post-doc is going to make you rich.

This is ultimately what drives my interest in early retirement. My research requires no resources other than time. And it would be significantly more enjoyable as a pursuit if I can do research for its own sake, not merely in the name of "academic productivity". 
 

maizefolk

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Re: Academic job market - spendy friend in the precariat [long...]
« Reply #36 on: September 26, 2017, 11:45:12 AM »
Hargrove Kepler, I agree with Lhamo, while the content of some of these stories is can be discouraging you tell them quite well and I think you'd find a surprisingly large audience in academia if you wanted to write something in a longer form someday (after FIRE?).

Askel, I will say one of the real risks is that even things you love doing can become tedious and stressful if you're worried about having a job if you don't get the right (publishable) results. If you're about to do your research just for the joy of it, you'll definitely be able to sidestep that pitfall. As to why academics fight so strongly (and sometimes so dirty) over what are really minor issues, I think part of it comes from having scarce resources (in terms of things like grants, or lab space, or even just nice offices) combined with job security. There have been studies that show as you expose people to either real resource constraints, or even just remind them of the idea of resource constraints, racism and sexism and all types of prejudice go through the roof [1]. I always make the joke that I have to be very careful to avoid offending any of my colleagues because we're probably going to be stuck working together for the next 40+ years unless one of us dies young. But it really does means that small slights (an administrator decided that your grant would be the one submitted from our university for a limited submission contest instead of mine five years ago) have the chance to fester into deeply held grudges and that behavior and those attitudes can filter down to postdocs and students.

Edit: well that was an embarrassing handle mixup.

[1] One example: Krosch, A. R., & Amodio, D. M. (2014). Economic scarcity alters the perception of race. PNAS, 111(25), 9079–9084. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4078865/
« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 12:16:45 PM by maizeman »

Kepler

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Re: Academic job market - spendy friend in the precariat [long...]
« Reply #37 on: September 26, 2017, 11:56:19 AM »
lhamo - ha! I'm not important enough for anyone to want to read about my random career...  I hadn't actually thought about this stuff in some while (these events were all concentrated in the first couple of years, after which a lot of the problem people had left, there was a general mobilisation - not led by me, but driven by people more senior - around treatment of women in the institution, and I've also had a lot of time to show what the hiring committee saw in me).  But this thread has helped me realise that this was lurking in the background of why I was feeling so irritated by my entitled friend...

Askel - I have a similar basic reaction to the environment.  I said earlier that I didn't go into academia originally because of the job market prospects, and this was right - but the basic unpleasantness of the environment was one of those "prospects".  I think some institutions are worse than others (and as clarkfan1979 has said, presumably you could sidestep this in something like the community college system, if that's an option for you).  But I think a /lot/ about how much of my time is spent on things that are completely unrelated to anything "intellectual", and my interest in early retirement is related to that too. 

I don't get any gratification out of the academic prestige economy, but for some people winning a zero sum prestige game is a direct and specific motivation: they presumably know they aren't going to get rich screwing over a postdoc, but that doesn't matter because what some people find gratifying isn't the money - it's the actual process of screwing someone over.  Most people won't be like this - but you don't need very many people to be like this for the environment to get really unpleasant, really fast.  People who survive this process tend to valorise and perpetuate it: they made it through something that was hard and painful and required a lot of self-sacrifice; it reshaped them and made them what they are today.  It can start seeming like a transformative experience that everyone should undergo - and it can appear much more integral to intellectual production than it really is.

You don't - at all - have to be a jerk to do well in the space.  But, unfortunately - and it took me a while to learn this - you can't completely disregard pursuing markers of prestige.  It's possible that this is accentuated by the specific nature of my own research, but at least in my own experience: research is very specialised; it's hard for most academics  to follow the details of what most other academics do; and prestige tokens function as a sort of proxy for research quality when people can't assess this directly themselves...  But those markers take time to pursue - and, frankly, that time is often a distraction from real, meaningful research results. 

For me, academia can sometimes be a bit like having two entirely separate careers: one in which you do the actual work, and a whole separate, parallel career in which you pursue the prestige signifiers that other people need to see, to credit the value of the actual substantive work.  I find the commercial environment refreshingly results-oriented by contrast... 

On top of this issue, I have periodic twinges of guilt because I am valued more directly than most academic staff for skills that have nothing intrinsically to do with academia: I organise things well, and (in spite of what this thread might sound like...) I am generally effective interpersonally.  But every time I use those skills to solve some completely trivial administrative problem, I find myself going: wouldn't these skills be better used, say, on supply chain logistics for some famine-stricken part of the world or something?  This is true of course for lots of careers - there's nothing academia-specific about it.  But it's a big driver for getting to the point that I can choose to spend or donate my time whatever way I want... 

Askel

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Re: Academic job market - spendy friend in the precariat [long...]
« Reply #38 on: September 27, 2017, 03:44:59 AM »
It's possible that this is accentuated by the specific nature of my own research, but at least in my own experience: research is very specialised; it's hard for most academics  to follow the details of what most other academics do; and prestige tokens function as a sort of proxy for research quality when people can't assess this directly themselves... 

This is a very helpful insight, thanks.  To meet, this relates strongly with Fisker's writing on careerism (http://earlyretirementextreme.com/are-you-suffering-from-careerism.html). I suppose this is why I find the FIRE concept so appealing anyway. My financial needs don't require that I advance my career, so I find it difficult to get excited about pursuing these prestige tokens to do so- either on the academic or non-academic side. 


maizefolk

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Re: Academic job market - spendy friend in the precariat [long...]
« Reply #39 on: September 27, 2017, 06:51:07 AM »
I've read a lot of Jacob's work but I hadn't come across the careerism post before now. Insightful as always. Thank you.

Imustacheyouaquestion

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Re: Academic job market - spendy friend in the precariat [long...]
« Reply #40 on: September 27, 2017, 09:26:18 AM »
I'd just address the next barbed comment with frank commentary: "Yup, I am very lucky to have succeeded in the tenuous gauntlet that is the academic field. And you're right, life does feel less stressful from a position of more financial security. Thank goodness we spent so many years assiduously saving and investing so that we have the freedom to pursue options instead of feeling trapped now."

Your friend can either take the hint that their comments are rude and unwelcome, and take responsibility for digging themselves out of the hole instead of feeling jealousy for others that have succeeded, or you can stop considering them a friend :)

Laura33

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Re: Academic job market - spendy friend in the precariat [long...]
« Reply #41 on: September 27, 2017, 09:28:21 AM »
As to why academics fight so strongly (and sometimes so dirty) over what are really minor issues, I think part of it comes from having scarce resources (in terms of things like grants, or lab space, or even just nice offices) combined with job security. There have been studies that show as you expose people to either real resource constraints, or even just remind them of the idea of resource constraints, racism and sexism and all types of prejudice go through the roof.

I have three cats.  They generally ignore each other; they get along, in that each-to-his-own-area-I-shall-pretend-the-others-don't-exist way cats usually do.  Each has a bowl of dry food that we leave out in the same area, and the cats eat together frequently; sometimes, one will get pushy, but the other just goes to the next bowl and resumes eating.

Last night, I had to take the food away so one cat could have a procedure done this morning.  When I came downstairs this morning after all of 10 hrs, all three were hovering around the bowls, hissing and prowling and swiping at each other.  Two literal catfights broke out over the course of 15 minutes.

People aren't really as evolved as we like to think we are.

Livingthedream55

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Re: Academic job market - spendy friend in the precariat [long...]
« Reply #42 on: September 27, 2017, 10:41:51 AM »
Sheesh, some friend.  Perhaps stop looking at this person (and others like them) as friends.  He is your colleague.  But, you are apparently in a very competitive field and funding is limited.  So he is a competitors for funding, credit, choice employment options, etc.  It's up to him to up his game to become competitive, not on those around him to lower the bar and make things easy.  There is no point in helping this guy unless you can ensure you are benefitting professionally from the arrangement as well. 

The next time he, or someone else, complains to you professionally about money, life, the universe, and everything you could ask: And what do you expect me to do?  If they don't have an answer or act like a wise-ass, you could tell them that they are welcome to think of some way you can help and bring it back to you for consideration, but otherwise you don't want to hear about any of it... If they come back with an answer of something you could do to help, the next question from you could be: Okay, and what's in it for me?  It could be anything, so long as it seems like a fair exchange: an introduction to someone they know that you've wanted to meet, setting you up with a consulting gig, them doing some grunt work on a project you are working on. 

If someone doesn't know how to, or doesn't want to, play ball then it's not your problem.

Also, at the end of the day, it sounds like your "friend" just may not be cut out for the academic route.

I disagree! Simply say: "Wow, what are you going to do?"  Disengage!  You have done plenty and they use you like a punching bag. IMHO

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!