Author Topic: ACA and Early retirement income  (Read 7038 times)

2lazy2retire

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ACA and Early retirement income
« on: May 19, 2015, 11:40:55 AM »
I know this topic has been raised before but is anyone currently massaging income in order to qualify for ACA subsidies. The available subsidies will have a significant impact on the ability to do ROTH conversions which a lot of people aspire to in FIRE when their income is lower.
I came across this article which talks about Income Bunching - basically if you are going to exceed the income level that disqualifies you in any one year then go large and reduce income in subsequent years allowing you to qualify. Anybody playing this game right now

http://thefinancebuff.com/income-bunching-under-obamacare-premium-subsidy.html

http://thefinancebuff.com/converting-to-roth-and-harvesting-capital-gains-under-obamacare-premium-subsidy.html

velocistar237

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Re: ACA and Early retirement income
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2015, 12:33:55 PM »
Does that author write about early retirement? It seems like he's looking at a higher expense level.

If you're worried about keeping retirement income low, just pay off your house before you retire. That should significantly reduce your annual expenses, forever.

kpd905

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Re: ACA and Early retirement income
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2015, 12:50:45 PM »
I like the income bunching idea. It is similar to doubling up on property tax payments in alternating years so you can itemize every other year.

forummm

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Re: ACA and Early retirement income
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2015, 02:54:31 PM »
I don't think the math works out all that well for many people near the 400% threshold. The tax credits at that level just limit you expense for premiums on the 2nd lowest cost silver plan to 9.5% of your income. And it's only as you get very close to 65 that premiums start to get that high for most locations. So we're talking maybe nothing in tax credits, up to a few grand a year in tax credits. But then bumping yourself up to the 25% bracket as suggested could easily cost thousands of dollars more. So in certain places with more expensive plans (like rural areas), maybe, and once you're 60ish.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2015, 02:57:05 PM by forummm »

brooklynguy

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Re: ACA and Early retirement income
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2015, 03:48:55 PM »
If you're worried about keeping retirement income low, just pay off your house before you retire. That should significantly reduce your annual expenses, forever.

Generally speaking, I think this would be letting the tail wag the dog.  If all the other relevant factors make carrying your mortgage into retirement the probably-optimal approach, then it will generally still be the probably-optimal approach after taking eligibility for ACA subsidies into account.

GarythePunster

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Re: ACA and Early retirement income
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2015, 07:12:00 PM »

Generally speaking, I think this would be letting the tail wag the dog.  If all the other relevant factors make carrying your mortgage into retirement the probably-optimal approach, then it will generally still be the probably-optimal approach after taking eligibility for ACA subsidies into account.

Agree with that. Subsidy levels aren't likely to be so huge in the future that they would cancel out those other factors, and could very well be the reverse (smaller).

brooklynguy

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Re: ACA and Early retirement income
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2015, 08:15:44 PM »
Agree with that. Subsidy levels aren't likely to be so huge in the future that they would cancel out those other factors, and could very well be the reverse (smaller).

No, the subsidies may very well be huge.  In my case (with my family of four residing in the expensive health insurance market that is NYC), if I retired today, my ACA subsidies would add up to north of ten grand per year, or approximately half of my entire non-mortgage living expenses.  But the impact of retaining my mortgage (rather than paying it off) on my eligibility for subsidies would be relatively minimal, because each dollar of mortgage expense that continues into retirement will translate into mere pennies of additional income that counts against ACA eligibility (at least until much later in my retirement, and potentially until I become eligible for Medicare, when ACA-eligibility is no longer relevant).  For more details, see this post (and the discussion linked to in that post).

Gin1984

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Re: ACA and Early retirement income
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2015, 08:18:50 PM »
I don't think the math works out all that well for many people near the 400% threshold. The tax credits at that level just limit you expense for premiums on the 2nd lowest cost silver plan to 9.5% of your income. And it's only as you get very close to 65 that premiums start to get that high for most locations. So we're talking maybe nothing in tax credits, up to a few grand a year in tax credits. But then bumping yourself up to the 25% bracket as suggested could easily cost thousands of dollars more. So in certain places with more expensive plans (like rural areas), maybe, and once you're 60ish.
By keeping my mom right under 400%, she will be saving $200/month this year.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: ACA and Early retirement income
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2015, 09:35:51 PM »
ACA is a primary reason to retire early (in the year).  Taxes are annual, so there are lots of trade-off's, like if you need 401k matching (calculate it, if it's worth %-wise once you're FI) or another year of SS earnings.  I still think mid-year will pay off, but health insurance tends to argue :)

TreeTired

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Re: ACA and Early retirement income
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2015, 09:52:10 PM »
I was doing Roth conversions annually until ACA.   Now I do none, and I am very careful about taking capital gains, consciously managing my MAGI downward.   The loss of ACA subsidy for me is equivalent to a tax ranging from 13% to 17%,  so that makes for a pretty high marginal tax rate if there are state and federal taxes also.  If I do a little bit of minimum wage work I pay 6.2% SS,  1.45% medicare, 5.75% state and maybe 10% federal so that's 23.4%.  Add in the ACA of 15% and I am a low income person with a marginal tax rate of 37.4%.    I am a bit older than many of you (61).   When I qualify for Medicare I may start making Roth conversions again for a few years until RMDs start.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2015, 02:00:03 PM by TreeTired »

velocistar237

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Re: ACA and Early retirement income
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2015, 06:48:33 AM »
If you're worried about keeping retirement income low, just pay off your house before you retire. That should significantly reduce your annual expenses, forever.

Generally speaking, I think this would be letting the tail wag the dog.  If all the other relevant factors make carrying your mortgage into retirement the probably-optimal approach, then it will generally still be the probably-optimal approach after taking eligibility for ACA subsidies into account.

Okay, I see it now. The alternative to paying off your mortgage is investing the payments within a taxable account. Paying off your mortgage (or other low-interest debt) on schedule will trigger very little increase in income because capital gains will be small. Or if you manage to put the savings into a Roth, there's no income on that at all.

Is anyone here going to be near the cliff? Even if I pay my mortgage from 100% income, I'll be way closer to 100% than 400%.

brooklynguy

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Re: ACA and Early retirement income
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2015, 07:23:51 AM »
Is anyone here going to be near the cliff? Even if I pay my mortgage from 100% income, I'll be way closer to 100% than 400%.

Yeah, that's the other consideration - many of us frugal early retirees could have the opposite problem of having too little income to qualify for ACA subsidies, and will need to carefully manage our income to avoid that problem.  Depleting your IRA "powder" too quickly (and too early) in a Roth conversion ladder through aggressive Roth conversions could become an issue (and carrying a mortgage and keeping the associated taxable investments can help with managing that issue too).

seattlecyclone

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Re: ACA and Early retirement income
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2015, 11:17:59 AM »
I wrote a pretty lengthy blog post about this topic, aimed at early retirees.

https://seattlecyclone.com/optimizing-the-affordable-care-act/

This stuff is complicated! Optimizing for lowest health insurance premiums can very easily lead to suboptimal results in other tax-related areas. There are lots of variables to keep track of.

forummm

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Re: ACA and Early retirement income
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2015, 01:07:15 PM »
I wrote a pretty lengthy blog post about this topic, aimed at early retirees.

https://seattlecyclone.com/optimizing-the-affordable-care-act/

This stuff is complicated! Optimizing for lowest health insurance premiums can very easily lead to suboptimal results in other tax-related areas. There are lots of variables to keep track of.

I only had time to skim parts of this, but the parts I read looked to be correct, which is a HUGE accomplishment. Almost nobody understands the nuances of this stuff. Nice job!

2lazy2retire

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Re: ACA and Early retirement income
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2015, 01:28:38 PM »
I wrote a pretty lengthy blog post about this topic, aimed at early retirees.

https://seattlecyclone.com/optimizing-the-affordable-care-act/

This stuff is complicated! Optimizing for lowest health insurance premiums can very easily lead to suboptimal results in other tax-related areas. There are lots of variables to keep track of.

I only had time to skim parts of this, but the parts I read looked to be correct, which is a HUGE accomplishment. Almost nobody understands the nuances of this stuff. Nice job!

Would be nice it they could add it to turbo taxcaster - get to play with the figures to optimize income.

Metta

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Re: ACA and Early retirement income
« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2015, 07:37:31 AM »
I wrote a pretty lengthy blog post about this topic, aimed at early retirees.

https://seattlecyclone.com/optimizing-the-affordable-care-act/

This stuff is complicated! Optimizing for lowest health insurance premiums can very easily lead to suboptimal results in other tax-related areas. There are lots of variables to keep track of.

Thank you for this! It's an amazing write-up and fascinating.

Miss Prim

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Re: ACA and Early retirement income
« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2015, 05:33:33 PM »
Thank you so much seattlecyclone!  I was trying to figure out how to get the most out of the ACA when I will be on it in January.  I am on Cobra right now until the end of the year, but it is more money monthly than the ACA would be, but only if I can get a subsidy. 

I have bookmarked your blog post for further reference.                           Miss Prim




Roland of Gilead

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Re: ACA and Early retirement income
« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2015, 07:13:11 PM »
Nice write up (although I already knew everything in it from extensive research, it is nice to have a source to point others toward).

We just retired and have some work related income this year, but with 401K max contribution, two traditional IRA, and an HSA contribution, we can sneak in $200 of subsidy, bringing our silver plan premium from $646 to $446 per month for a couple.  Next year, when we have no W2 income, we can make our MAGI pretty much anything we want.  I am thinking of shooting for around 140% of FPL, which will bring that $646 down to a more reasonable $70 per month or so.

Instead of paying off our house, we plan to sell our paid off house.   We are going to travel by RV and possibly rent small apartments or houses in certain areas of the country we want to have an extended visit.  Because the money from the sale of our house is tax free, we can use this to pay rent/food/expenses (likely set up a CD ladder to slightly combat inflation).  Our growth will come from 100% stocks in our Roth and 401K/IRA accounts.   Conversions to Roth to meet the ~$22,000 threshold to be off Medicaid.   We might need the Roth pipeline later, but likely not for a decade.

If the ACA holds, it will likely save us around $100,000 or more until we reach Medicare age.  Not insignificant.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!