Author Topic: A great article about choices - Why Poor People Buy TVs  (Read 19935 times)

FiftyIsTheNewTwenty

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A great article about choices - Why Poor People Buy TVs
« on: October 30, 2016, 11:38:15 AM »
Does real poverty, even hunger, force rational and practical choices?  Not so much - anywhere in the world:

https://medium.com/@naimilshah/why-poor-people-buy-television-45f9ebc91adb#.sbsyxjovp


scottish

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Re: A great article about choices - Why Poor People Buy TVs
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2016, 02:22:35 PM »
I wonder if this invalidates Maslow's hierarchy of needs?   Buying a phone or TV instead of food suggests it does.   Food should be in the bottom layer - physiological needs - and phone/TV should be in layer 3 or 4 (love/belonging or esteem).


Indexer

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Re: A great article about choices - Why Poor People Buy TVs
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2016, 04:24:32 PM »
I have a friend who use to work for a cable provider, and the stories he told me....

Example:
Customer, "I need my bill reduced. I can't afford it, and my power is about to be cut off."
Friend, "You already have discounts, and you are behind on your bill. I can't make it cheaper, especially if you are already behind."
Customer, "but my power will be cut off. I have children."
Friend, "Then you can't afford cable and you shouldn't have it. Having power and keeping your children warm(it's winter) is more important than cable."
Customer, "how will they watch their favorite shows?"
Friend, "if your power gets cut off the TV won't work..."
Customer, "^$%$% you!"
Friend, "Have a nice day!"

Metric Mouse

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Re: A great article about choices - Why Poor People Buy TVs
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2016, 12:20:54 AM »
I wonder if this invalidates Maslow's hierarchy of needs?   Buying a phone or TV instead of food suggests it does.   Food should be in the bottom layer - physiological needs - and phone/TV should be in layer 3 or 4 (love/belonging or esteem).

Hard to say. One could argue that since the man who bought the tv and the phone wasn't actually starving or freezing to death, he had met his basic needs, and thus was already moving up the scale.  People don't just stockpile food until they have enough for the rest of their life and then move onto the next need; once one has some food, perhaps anything after that falls under 'safety', and thus a TV could be seen to meet that need just as much as an extra bag of rice does.

HenryDavid

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Re: A great article about choices - Why Poor People Buy TVs
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2016, 07:44:29 AM »
Rational, thoughtful, enterprising poor people would say:
-we are broke
-neighbors, also broke
-kids wanna watch TV
-ok let's all buy one TV and share with 3-4 houses or apartments. Take turns watching the kids watch their TV. While the parents do batch cooking to save more cash. Or similar smart thing.

But no, people do what they think is normal, or makes them look normal. It's normal to have your own TV. Only poor people don't. And what are we . . . poor people? Who you calling poor people? We got our own TV, right?

DA

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Re: A great article about choices - Why Poor People Buy TVs
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2016, 09:56:50 AM »
Does real poverty, even hunger, force rational and practical choices?  Not so much - anywhere in the world:

https://medium.com/@naimilshah/why-poor-people-buy-television-45f9ebc91adb#.sbsyxjovp

I don't know if it's quite right to say that these truly poor people are being irrational.  The implied idea is "why aren't these poor people busting their ass and living a Spartan lifestyle in order to elevate themselves out of poverty"?  I think that's a somewhat legitimate criticism of the relatively poor--but not actually poor--people in rich countries. 

But if you live in a society with weak rule of law norms and weak property rights, you might rightfully think that investing in the future by, for instance, saving money or purchasing income-producing assets, isn't worth it because one day someone might just come along and take all your stuff.  The precariousness of life in poor countries makes it almost irrational to bootstrap out of poverty.

Mustachianism, FU money, etc. is impossible without a stable society governed by rule of law principles and property rights (as opposed to the alternative, "might makes right.").  The Anglo-American legal system and government structure does not ensure 100% fairness or just outcomes, but it's a hell of a lot better than the alternatives. 

FIRE Artist

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Re: A great article about choices - Why Poor People Buy TVs
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2016, 10:31:13 AM »
Does real poverty, even hunger, force rational and practical choices?  Not so much - anywhere in the world:

https://medium.com/@naimilshah/why-poor-people-buy-television-45f9ebc91adb#.sbsyxjovp

But if you live in a society with weak rule of law norms and weak property rights, you might rightfully think that investing in the future by, for instance, saving money or purchasing income-producing assets, isn't worth it because one day someone might just come along and take all your stuff.  The precariousness of life in poor countries makes it almost irrational to bootstrap out of poverty.


This.  I worked for a few years in Sumatra Indonesia, surrounded by intense poverty.  "Middle class" people were comfortable, but they are not actually the middle 50% of society.  The majority of people live in small one/two room, tin roof shelters, often with only one or two lights and power sockets in the whole place and a kerosene stove.  These folks either don't have bank accounts, or if they do (because forced to by employer like mine), they don't trust the institution enough to keep a lot of money building up in there.  As soon as they have enough money, they buy a rice cooker, a TV, cell phone and scooter.  The difference between being able to buy those items or not really is the dividing line between the extreme poor and the average citizen and likely means someone in the household has full time employment.  If you have steady employment, you are not as worried about where your next meal is coming from so you can justify buying a TV.  Employment laws require that an extra month's salary be paid out for Eid, saving money through the year to afford to take an annual vacation is such a foreign concept that it is mandated that the employers do this for them. 

Middle class people are a huge step above this, being able to afford housing in a secure home with a small courtyard, AC unit, hot water, cable to go along with that TV, home wireless internet and computer etc.  It wouldn't really be feasible to save up from extreme poverty or even minimum wager earning to middle class.   Minimum wage when I was there was about $110 USD/month, a fresh out local engineer would make 10x that much at $1100 USD/month.  In western society there really is no equivalent for that scenario where a fresh out engineer is making 10x minimum wage.  Think about what life would be like in the US if the barrier to entry on the middle class was a professional degree. 

Vilgan

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Re: A great article about choices - Why Poor People Buy TVs
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2016, 11:08:02 AM »
I've also heard something along the lines of "I can always find someone willing to give me food, but nobody will pay for my cable bill" as part of the reason poor people pay for and prioritize cell phones and cable tv. They pay for those things which they see as something they really want and then lean on support structures for food and other basic necessities.

FIRE Artist

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Re: A great article about choices - Why Poor People Buy TVs
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2016, 11:12:04 AM »
I've also heard something along the lines of "I can always find someone willing to give me food, but nobody will pay for my cable bill" as part of the reason poor people pay for and prioritize cell phones and cable tv. They pay for those things which they see as something they really want and then lean on support structures for food and other basic necessities.

Kind of like using Go Fund Me to pay for your kids medical bills when you have a new BMW sat in your driveway. 

Bicycle_B

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Re: A great article about choices - Why Poor People Buy TVs
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2016, 11:31:19 AM »
I've also heard something along the lines of "I can always find someone willing to give me food, but nobody will pay for my cable bill" as part of the reason poor people pay for and prioritize cell phones and cable tv. They pay for those things which they see as something they really want and then lean on support structures for food and other basic necessities.

Kind of like using Go Fund Me to pay for your kids medical bills when you have a new BMW sat in your driveway.

Maybe not the same, though.   

Arguably, a new BMW is a prestige item purchased instead of a cheaper utilitarian vehicle; it adds status, not functionality.  A cell phone is a practical tool, not having it is a substantial reduction. 

TV is a harder case to defend, but human beings learn by stories and I think it's human nature to want the excitement and connection to larger human society that comes with TV, compared to not having anything but food and a shack.  Even if you disagree that the value added by TV is real, at least adding the TV is visibly adding something (a stream of stories, devised by thousands of people) that would otherwise not present.  This is different from a BMW vs Civic status choice.

Chris22

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Re: A great article about choices - Why Poor People Buy TVs
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2016, 11:41:02 AM »
I also think, as much as this group pooh-poohs TV and cable, it is cheap entertainment.  A $500 TV might last 5-10 years, so you're talking $4-8/mo, plus an expensive cable package is $100/mo.  So say it's $108/mo, and used I dunno, 4 hours a day, that's 120 hours a month.  That's less than a dollar an hour of entertainment.  What else can you do for that money, assuming you're living in an inner city or other area where "going to the park" or "bike to the library" is not a safe or viable alternative?  Especially when a TV is scalable to as many people as you can cram in your living room?  For people who don't have any other good options than to stay holed up in their house when not at a menial, physically tasking job that tires them out, I get why they'd pay $1/hr for cheap entertainment.  Heck, given the most likely alternatives (drugs and screwing) it's a far safer, cheaper activity.

Slee_stack

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Re: A great article about choices - Why Poor People Buy TVs
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2016, 02:10:09 PM »
How did people survive before cell phones and TV?

Its impossible to imagine.   /sarcasm


I recognize cell phones are incredibly useful.

If I had a magic wand though, I'd wave them out of existence.  I suppose that would be scary though.  A billion people wouldn't know what to do with themselves.

FIRE Artist

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Re: A great article about choices - Why Poor People Buy TVs
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2016, 02:28:26 PM »
How did people survive before cell phones and TV?

Its impossible to imagine.   /sarcasm


I recognize cell phones are incredibly useful.

If I had a magic wand though, I'd wave them out of existence.  I suppose that would be scary though.  A billion people wouldn't know what to do with themselves.

For most of the developing world, cell phones are their only access to the internet.  Developing countries seem to also have more advanced banking via smart phone as well. 

Slee_stack

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Re: A great article about choices - Why Poor People Buy TVs
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2016, 02:51:13 PM »
How did people survive before cell phones and TV?

Its impossible to imagine.   /sarcasm


I recognize cell phones are incredibly useful.

If I had a magic wand though, I'd wave them out of existence.  I suppose that would be scary though.  A billion people wouldn't know what to do with themselves.

For most of the developing world, cell phones are their only access to the internet.  Developing countries seem to also have more advanced banking via smart phone as well.
If cell phones didn't exist, would there be alternative Internet conduits available?  (Yes)

The comment was obviously tongue-in-cheek.  The addiction/isolation caused by cell phone use in the developed world is concerning.

Digital Dogma

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Re: A great article about choices - Why Poor People Buy TVs
« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2016, 03:10:00 PM »
Unfortunately it seems to me as if many people substitute socialization with television, enabling them to go through life without making many meaningful connections with people which could be materially beneficial in the long run. Sit down in front of the TV for a half hour show and what do you have at the end? Nothing. A half hour of conversation with another person may just leave a lasting change in their opinion of you.

TV gives you all the physical inputs of socializing without the risk/reward of building your personality and reputation with others.

TheOldestYoungMan

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Re: A great article about choices - Why Poor People Buy TVs
« Reply #16 on: November 02, 2016, 03:38:28 PM »
To my buddy, the fact that he has a place to live and a paid up electricity bill is what makes having a TV make sense.  Without the TV, there'd be no reason to have the place with a paid electric bill.  He could just live in his car.

In his words:

"The way I see it is this, you stand in the boat and see a man drowning and tell him that he should really learn how to swim before he gets in the water.  While I appreciate and agree with the sentiment, throw the fucking life preserver."

And so you begin to realize, if you ever dive into the day to day financial decisions of the very poor, they were born drowning.  I don't know how to improve the condition though, because every time I throw a life preserver they just play in the water until it dissolves, and go back to drowning.  My metaphor is breaking down.

Rubic

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Re: A great article about choices - Why Poor People Buy TVs
« Reply #17 on: November 02, 2016, 04:58:58 PM »
If cell phones didn't exist, would there be alternative Internet conduits available?  (Yes)

Eventually, perhaps.  In the meanwhile, cell phones are doing a remarkable
job of lifting millions out of poverty.

Cellphones for Women in Developing Nations Aid Ascent From Poverty
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/02/business/dealbook/melinda-gates-cellphones-for-women-aid-ascent-from-poverty.html

How Mobile Phones Are Changing the Developing World
https://www.cta.tech/News/Blog/Articles/2015/July/How-Mobile-Phones-Are-Changing-the-Developing-Worl.aspx

How Mobile Phones Are Changing the Developing World (Unicef)
https://blogs.unicef.org/innovation/how-mobile-phones-are-changing-the-developing-world/


infogoon

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Re: A great article about choices - Why Poor People Buy TVs
« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2016, 08:04:44 AM »
"The way I see it is this, you stand in the boat and see a man drowning and tell him that he should really learn how to swim before he gets in the water.  While I appreciate and agree with the sentiment, throw the fucking life preserver."

This is what I think every time a conversation about poverty and education veers off into "Well, she should have thought of that before having kids."

Unless you've got a time machine and a box of condoms, that's not helpful. Why bother saying it aside from the brief thrill of smug superiority?

tonysemail

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Re: A great article about choices - Why Poor People Buy TVs
« Reply #19 on: November 03, 2016, 10:21:24 AM »
Interesting topic. Poverty effects psychology.

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/11/your-brain-on-poverty-why-poor-people-seem-to-make-bad-decisions/281780/

http://harvardmagazine.com/2015/05/the-science-of-scarcity

thanks for sharing that study.
I like that they controlled for learning the IQ test by having a separate set of farmers that only took the test post-harvest.


RedwoodDreams

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Re: A great article about choices - Why Poor People Buy TVs
« Reply #20 on: November 03, 2016, 10:28:33 AM »
"The way I see it is this, you stand in the boat and see a man drowning and tell him that he should really learn how to swim before he gets in the water.  While I appreciate and agree with the sentiment, throw the fucking life preserver."

This is what I think every time a conversation about poverty and education veers off into "Well, she should have thought of that before having kids."

Unless you've got a time machine and a box of condoms, that's not helpful. Why bother saying it aside from the brief thrill of smug superiority?

+1

Slee_stack

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Re: A great article about choices - Why Poor People Buy TVs
« Reply #21 on: November 03, 2016, 11:15:19 AM »
"The way I see it is this, you stand in the boat and see a man drowning and tell him that he should really learn how to swim before he gets in the water.  While I appreciate and agree with the sentiment, throw the fucking life preserver."

This is what I think every time a conversation about poverty and education veers off into "Well, she should have thought of that before having kids."

Unless you've got a time machine and a box of condoms, that's not helpful. Why bother saying it aside from the brief thrill of smug superiority?
The right answer is, yes, you save a drowning person AND you ensure the situation never repeats.

If that drowning person voluntarily put himself into that situation because of incredibly poor choices, you still facepunch the hell out of them once they are out of the water.  Is that smug?  I'm good with that.

galliver

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Re: A great article about choices - Why Poor People Buy TVs
« Reply #22 on: November 03, 2016, 11:37:20 AM »


The addiction/isolation caused by cell phone use in the developed world is concerning.



So isolated and anti-social. So different from the past.

golden1

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Re: A great article about choices - Why Poor People Buy TVs
« Reply #23 on: November 03, 2016, 11:46:30 AM »
Quote
I also think, as much as this group pooh-poohs TV and cable, it is cheap entertainment.  A $500 TV might last 5-10 years, so you're talking $4-8/mo, plus an expensive cable package is $100/mo.  So say it's $108/mo, and used I dunno, 4 hours a day, that's 120 hours a month. 

Agreed.  If you look at cost/hour, cable TV is fairly inexpensive for entertainment.  It also provides information and education if used properly.  I watch mainly documentaries and news. 

hollyluja

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Re: A great article about choices - Why Poor People Buy TVs
« Reply #24 on: November 03, 2016, 12:03:28 PM »
I just saw this article In the New York Times and thought of this thread:

3 TVs and No Food

These poor kids and their parents have bigger problems than TVs.  Not buying a TV isn't going to realistically fix any of their problems, so why not? 

Slee_stack

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Re: A great article about choices - Why Poor People Buy TVs
« Reply #25 on: November 03, 2016, 12:11:04 PM »

So isolated and anti-social. So different from the past.
Cute picture.  But we both know thats where the comparison ends.

You could have at least picked a row of phone booths.....

chesebert

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Re: A great article about choices - Why Poor People Buy TVs
« Reply #26 on: November 03, 2016, 08:08:54 PM »
I have a friend who use to work for a cable provider, and the stories he told me....

Example:
Customer, "I need my bill reduced. I can't afford it, and my power is about to be cut off."
Friend, "You already have discounts, and you are behind on your bill. I can't make it cheaper, especially if you are already behind."
Customer, "but my power will be cut off. I have children."
Friend, "Then you can't afford cable and you shouldn't have it. Having power and keeping your children warm(it's winter) is more important than cable."
Customer, "how will they watch their favorite shows?"
Friend, "if your power gets cut off the TV won't work..."
Customer, "^$%$% you!"
Friend, "Have a nice day!"
Tell me this conversation so did not happen IRL

kite

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Re: A great article about choices - Why Poor People Buy TVs
« Reply #27 on: November 04, 2016, 06:02:58 AM »
I just saw this article In the New York Times and thought of this thread:

3 TVs and No Food

These poor kids and their parents have bigger problems than TVs.  Not buying a TV isn't going to realistically fix any of their problems, so why not?

Terrible headline on a fascinating column.  The televisions aren't why those families are poor.  The causes are in that article, however. 
What I want to know is if the 28 year old who knocked up a 7th grader is still in possession of the weapons with which he committed that crime?  Access to birth control for young women is one useful tool, but we should be taking the testicles off the men who impregnate children. 
The welfare reforms discussed in the 90s included talk of cutting off benefits for women beyond their second child as a means of discouraging more children born in poverty, but mention of tackling the problem from the root cause was completely omitted.  Every child living in poverty has a father who put him or her there. 

patchyfacialhair

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Re: A great article about choices - Why Poor People Buy TVs
« Reply #28 on: November 05, 2016, 03:59:17 PM »
I have a friend who use to work for a cable provider, and the stories he told me....

Example:
Customer, "I need my bill reduced. I can't afford it, and my power is about to be cut off."
Friend, "You already have discounts, and you are behind on your bill. I can't make it cheaper, especially if you are already behind."
Customer, "but my power will be cut off. I have children."
Friend, "Then you can't afford cable and you shouldn't have it. Having power and keeping your children warm(it's winter) is more important than cable."
Customer, "how will they watch their favorite shows?"
Friend, "if your power gets cut off the TV won't work..."
Customer, "^$%$% you!"
Friend, "Have a nice day!"
Tell me this conversation so did not happen IRL

I believe it. Used to be in auto/property insurance sales...we'd often get calls from folks financing/leasing brand new cars yet they were a day or two from cancellation due to nonpayment. Then they'd cry about the price of their insurance and say they can't afford it.


Indexer

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Re: A great article about choices - Why Poor People Buy TVs
« Reply #29 on: November 05, 2016, 07:25:26 PM »
I have a friend who use to work for a cable provider, and the stories he told me....

Example:
Customer, "I need my bill reduced. I can't afford it, and my power is about to be cut off."
Friend, "You already have discounts, and you are behind on your bill. I can't make it cheaper, especially if you are already behind."
Customer, "but my power will be cut off. I have children."
Friend, "Then you can't afford cable and you shouldn't have it. Having power and keeping your children warm(it's winter) is more important than cable."
Customer, "how will they watch their favorite shows?"
Friend, "if your power gets cut off the TV won't work..."
Customer, "^$%$% you!"
Friend, "Have a nice day!"
Tell me this conversation so did not happen IRL

Actually it is worse...

Trade the word "power" for rent, and he told me that story too.

Cathy

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Re: A great article about choices - Why Poor People Buy TVs
« Reply #30 on: November 07, 2016, 08:22:26 AM »
What I want to know is if the 28 year old who knocked up a 7th grader is still in possession of the weapons with which he committed that crime?  Access to birth control for young women is one useful tool, but we should be taking the testicles off the men who impregnate children.

The rape mentioned in the New York Times article is certainly disturbing, as is the way the article discusses the problem of rape as "helping at-risk teenagers avoid pregnancy", which makes it sound like rape is something that girls and young women should "avoid", as opposed to something that men should not commit. The article even then proceeds to assert that "[i]f she had had early sex education and access to birth control, she said, she probably would not have become pregnant", even though the real problem in this case is rape, not access to birth control or sex education.

That said, I think your suggestion of physical castration has no place in a civilised society, and also does not solve the problem of rape. Men can still assault and batter women regardless of what genitals those men have; those attacks might not lead to pregnancy but they can still be vicious. There are a range of criminal justice reforms that might help with this problem, but I don't think barbaric corporal punishments should be among the reforms considered.


Unless you've got a time machine and a box of condoms, that's not helpful. Why bother saying it aside from the brief thrill of smug superiority?

Some pregnancies are the result of rape. The potential societal options for avoiding or mitigating that are very complicated and not necessarily effective. It's a very sad and serious problem.

However, many pregnancies are the result of consensual sex. In this latter case, not even "condoms" are necessary to avoid procreation. There is an even simpler solution: namely, not having sex (at any age). The popular culture, including the popular news media, teaches everybody from a young age that sex is super important and super desirable. Sex is treated by the popular culture simultaneously both as a big deal and as something so special and secretive that it's sometimes discussed in euphemisms and veiled references, the effect of which is to create and pique interest in it. Contrary to the message of the news media, the truth is that there's nothing special about sex, and it's really not noteworthy in any way, either to experience or to read about or watch. I wish we could reform the message in the popular culture to reflect that reality. The positive effects might be significant.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2016, 08:26:20 AM by Cathy »

Cathy

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Re: A great article about choices - Why Poor People Buy TVs
« Reply #31 on: November 07, 2016, 07:42:52 PM »
Also, why the scare quotes around condoms?

I used quotation marks around "condoms" because I was quoting another poster. Using quotation marks to mark a quote is a very standard use of that particular form of punctuation.

I also disagree with your various assertions, but I don't feel like responding to them at the moment.

hoping2retire35

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Re: A great article about choices - Why Poor People Buy TVs
« Reply #32 on: November 07, 2016, 08:21:14 PM »
Someone at work did this. $2000 curved 60inch screen.( I immediately pointed out that Walmart has 50 in for $328) I know they don't make much, have kids, lots of recent medical bills. I can only guess it was either for short term gratification or because they despaired about their money problems and just decided 'why not'. Really confused.

As Chris22 alluded, they too live away from free amenities, good place for kids to bike, so in a sense it might have been a natural progression. Idk

GetItRight

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Re: A great article about choices - Why Poor People Buy TVs
« Reply #33 on: November 08, 2016, 02:46:52 PM »
Yes poor people having fancy TVs and cable is nuts. You can get a tube TV or old/small flatscreen for free or darn near it, and have OTA TV.

A smartphone is perhaps the most valuable posession for a poor person, particularly with an unstable living situation. It is a cheap and small all in one gateway to communication, entertainment, transportation, jobs, buying stuff (CL), barter/trade, etc. Even if it's turned off, it works on wifi. A smartphone is pretty close to a necessity if you're poor as it fills the role of many separate and more costly devices that you can't fit in your pocket and take anywhere at a moments notice. The fallacy I often but not always see, is when poor people want to have the latest expensive smartphone as a status symbol.

srob

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Re: A great article about choices - Why Poor People Buy TVs
« Reply #34 on: November 08, 2016, 03:59:21 PM »
"Contrary to the message of the news media, the truth is that there's nothing special about sex, and it's really not noteworthy in any way, either to experience or to read about or watch. I wish we could reform the message in the popular culture to reflect that reality. The positive effects might be significant."

 Not noteworthy in any way? I would assume many on here (including my wife ;) would respectfully disagree.

Metric Mouse

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Re: A great article about choices - Why Poor People Buy TVs
« Reply #35 on: November 09, 2016, 11:50:29 PM »
"Contrary to the message of the news media, the truth is that there's nothing special about sex, and it's really not noteworthy in any way, either to experience or to read about or watch. I wish we could reform the message in the popular culture to reflect that reality. The positive effects might be significant."

 Not noteworthy in any way? I would assume many on here (including my wife ;) would respectfully disagree.

So many 'sex with the wife' jokes I want to throw your way. :D

kite

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Re: A great article about choices - Why Poor People Buy TVs
« Reply #36 on: November 10, 2016, 07:54:14 AM »
What I want to know is if the 28 year old who knocked up a 7th grader is still in possession of the weapons with which he committed that crime?  Access to birth control for young women is one useful tool, but we should be taking the testicles off the men who impregnate children.

The rape mentioned in the New York Times article is certainly disturbing, as is the way the article discusses the problem of rape as "helping at-risk teenagers avoid pregnancy", which makes it sound like rape is something that girls and young women should "avoid", as opposed to something that men should not commit. The article even then proceeds to assert that "[i]f she had had early sex education and access to birth control, she said, she probably would not have become pregnant", even though the real problem in this case is rape, not access to birth control or sex education.

That said, I think your suggestion of physical castration has no place in a civilised society, and also does not solve the problem of rape. Men can still assault and batter women regardless of what genitals those men have; those attacks might not lead to pregnancy but they can still be vicious. There are a range of criminal justice reforms that might help with this problem, but I don't think barbaric corporal punishments should be among the reforms considered.


Unless you've got a time machine and a box of condoms, that's not helpful. Why bother saying it aside from the brief thrill of smug superiority?

Some pregnancies are the result of rape. The potential societal options for avoiding or mitigating that are very complicated and not necessarily effective. It's a very sad and serious problem.

However, many pregnancies are the result of consensual sex. In this latter case, not even "condoms" are necessary to avoid procreation. There is an even simpler solution: namely, not having sex (at any age). The popular culture, including the popular news media, teaches everybody from a young age that sex is super important and super desirable. Sex is treated by the popular culture simultaneously both as a big deal and as something so special and secretive that it's sometimes discussed in euphemisms and veiled references, the effect of which is to create and pique interest in it. Contrary to the message of the news media, the truth is that there's nothing special about sex, and it's really not noteworthy in any way, either to experience or to read about or watch. I wish we could reform the message in the popular culture to reflect that reality. The positive effects might be significant.

Barbaric?  My dog doesn't think so, and he was gentle beforehand.
As I pointed out, we've had decades of discussion of public policy around sterilizing poor women as a means of reducing number of children born in poverty.  Large swaths of polite society would employ abortion to eliminate the child born into poverty.  The horse is long out of the barn on employing barbaric responses.  But the group we completely exempt from actual responsibility for inflicting multigenerational poverty on citizens are fathers.  We need to fix this problem. 
Fear of losing your most cherished thing is an excellent deterrent. 

FiftyIsTheNewTwenty

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Re: A great article about choices - Why Poor People Buy TVs
« Reply #37 on: November 10, 2016, 08:13:05 PM »
Yes poor people having fancy TVs and cable is nuts. You can get a tube TV or old/small flatscreen for free or darn near it, and have OTA TV.

A smartphone is perhaps the most valuable posession for a poor person, particularly with an unstable living situation. It is a cheap and small all in one gateway to communication, entertainment, transportation, jobs, buying stuff (CL), barter/trade, etc. Even if it's turned off, it works on wifi. A smartphone is pretty close to a necessity if you're poor as it fills the role of many separate and more costly devices that you can't fit in your pocket and take anywhere at a moments notice. The fallacy I often but not always see, is when poor people want to have the latest expensive smartphone as a status symbol.

I agree with all of this.

Smartphones were often finger-wagged at as indulgent luxuries, but in fact they're a lifeline for the poor, especially for employment and transportation.  A lot of lower-income folks are sort of odd-jobbing their way along, week to week or even day to day.

I see a lot of the cheapest tablet phones ($50 or even less) among the workin' folk.

scottish

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Re: A great article about choices - Why Poor People Buy TVs
« Reply #38 on: January 02, 2017, 02:37:07 PM »
I thought lots of Americans were against abortion?    The next paragraph is pretty controversial.

In the book Freakonomics, an economist, Steven Levitt, made an argument that youth crime dropped in the 90's because abortion had been legalized in 70's, i.e. unwanted children/children born to young mothers with no father, etc., were responsible for much crime.

Updated blog posting here

http://freakonomics.com/2005/05/15/abortion-and-crime-who-should-you-believe/

However, I don't think sterilizing people is a good solution to social problems.   This will just increase the anger and bitterness everywhere.    IIRC Alberta tried this about 70 years ago and it didn't end well.   It also sounds a little bit unconstitutional doesn't it?   

This whole topic strikes me as a classic left/right debate.    The 'left' wants to 'help' those people so they can become productive members of society.    The 'right' thinks they've had their chance and should be removed from society.    The nanny versus the authoritarian.

Milizard

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Re: A great article about choices - Why Poor People Buy TVs
« Reply #39 on: January 02, 2017, 05:27:19 PM »
You know, I've been thinking about these type of stories lately, and someone in another thread said something along the lines of, "entertainment is not important."   Well, lately, I've come to the realization that entertainment is incredibly important to humans.  Being entertained by something such as coding or investing could be hugely lucrative, while being entertained by gambling or drugs could ruin you.  The best tack seems to be to seek entertainment that at the least, does little to no harm, such as tv.   Better to be entertained by books, however. 

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MrsPete

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Re: A great article about choices - Why Poor People Buy TVs
« Reply #41 on: January 02, 2017, 09:02:52 PM »
I've also heard something along the lines of "I can always find someone willing to give me food, but nobody will pay for my cable bill" as part of the reason poor people pay for and prioritize cell phones and cable tv. They pay for those things which they see as something they really want and then lean on support structures for food and other basic necessities.
Oh, I'm certain some people hold this mentality.  I've heard students (and a few of my family members) express this thought. 

"The way I see it is this, you stand in the boat and see a man drowning and tell him that he should really learn how to swim before he gets in the water.  While I appreciate and agree with the sentiment, throw the fucking life preserver."

And so you begin to realize, if you ever dive into the day to day financial decisions of the very poor, they were born drowning.  I don't know how to improve the condition though, because every time I throw a life preserver they just play in the water until it dissolves, and go back to drowning.  My metaphor is breaking down.
No, I get the metaphor.  I'm thinking of my ner-do-well cousin.  He's had SO MUCH HELP in his life ... and every time someone bails him out, he does better for a matter of months, then goes back to drowning.  He has a strong body, his parents sent him to a private high school but he didn't manage to graduate, he has started a GED program so many times, his father even bought him a house! ... yet he keeps making bad choices. 

I have a friend who use to work for a cable provider, and the stories he told me....

Example:
Customer, "I need my bill reduced. I can't afford it, and my power is about to be cut off."
Friend, "You already have discounts, and you are behind on your bill. I can't make it cheaper, especially if you are already behind."
Customer, "but my power will be cut off. I have children."
Friend, "Then you can't afford cable and you shouldn't have it. Having power and keeping your children warm(it's winter) is more important than cable."
Customer, "how will they watch their favorite shows?"
Friend, "if your power gets cut off the TV won't work..."
Customer, "^$%$% you!"
Friend, "Have a nice day!"
Tell me this conversation so did not happen IRL
Um, yeah, the same thing happened with my above-mentioned ner-do-well cousin.  He'd been out of work for a while (self-inflicted at-work accident; if I posted the details, you'd call me a liar), and he fell behind in all his bills.  Which one did he pay FIRST?  Cable TV because the kids like to fall asleep while watching Nick at Night. 

Going back to the comment from above, I also suspect he knew his father would "catch up" and pay the electricity bill ... but he wouldn't have cable turned on for them.  So, from his standpoint, I can see why he'd choose to pay what his father wouldn't.   

I think what you said about about "why not" is correct. People come to me in private at work to discuss money matters. Several of these folks said they felt so underwater that they just say "screw it" and buy whatever they want; thinking they are stuck anyway due to tons of existing debt, so adding more debt won't matter.
To add to the "just say screw it" concept, keep in mind that some of these on-the-edge people are doing the right thing, doing the right thing, doing the right thing -- and we all know that we are offered this and that "deal" constantly ... but then just once they say "screw it", and then they're saddled with a payment for something they never should've bought.  I can see that's tough. 

chasesfish

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Re: A great article about choices - Why Poor People Buy TVs
« Reply #42 on: January 03, 2017, 05:52:35 AM »
I remember taking a business trip early in my career to Philadelphia and seeing real housing "projects" for the first time on the cab ride from the hotel.  I was amazed, every one of them had a dish attached.

MrsPete

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Re: A great article about choices - Why Poor People Buy TVs
« Reply #43 on: January 03, 2017, 08:06:58 AM »
Some seem to think that poverty causes poor decision making, but can't seem to fathom that the cause & effect runs the other direction.

However, poor decision making isn't the only cause of poverty. There isn't a single cause.  And that's the most overlooked point in all the programs intended to "solve" poverty.  The causes are as diverse as causes of cancer.  There are a boatload of pitfalls to avoid, some of them completely unavoidable despite one's best efforts.  Other times, quite clearly, the damage is self inflicted.  And like certain cancers, the most we'll be able to do is alleviate suffering.  You can believe the words of Jesus: "the poor you will always have with you" or you can simply believe mathematics.  Either way, there is always a bottom quintile.  We can't all be middle class.   
Yes, poverty is rarely caused by one single thing.  I grew up poor, and I can identify multiple causes for our situation:  My parents married young, they began having children immediately, and ended with five children, one with special needs; my dad started drinking, lost his job, then purposefully went out of state to avoid paying child support; my mom had been at home for more than a decade and had no marketable job skills.  If any ONE of those things had happened, our situation wouldn't have been nearly so dire.  I suspect most poor families are the same:  they aren't stymied by a single issue; rather, multiple problems beat them down ... and, as in my parents' situation, most of those issues were avoidable. 

Yet I think poor people sometimes BLAME one single item.  I'm thinking of a student of mine -- she's out of high school, yet I run into her all the time.  She says that she's in a difficult situation because of a speeding ticket she received in her last semester of high school.  She says that because of that ticket she couldn't go to college and is doomed to a life of poverty like her parents.  Okay, I know it was a $450 ticket (it involved a school bus and was in a neighborhood; yeah, I was surprised too), but it was two years ago.  The world is now impossible because of that one ticket two years ago.  The reality is that she got the ticket, which was a set-back for her ... but she ALSO she lived with a single parent who couldn't help pay it; AND she wouldn't listen to me when I tried to help her with FAFSA and told her that she could have literally gone to community college without paying anything; AND since she was going to work right after high school to pay for the ticket, she bought a new-new car and went into debt, which means she's now working two jobs; AND she keeps moving in with that or that guy, and every time she switches guys, he ends up stealing her stuff.  But every time I see her she laments that she "just can't get ahead", and -- in her mind -- it's all because of that ticket. 



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Re: A great article about choices - Why Poor People Buy TVs
« Reply #44 on: January 03, 2017, 10:15:35 AM »
This is an interesting topic, like so many things in life, it’s a simple problem. At the root of the issue you have some people in life that, for whatever reason, don’t actively seek to improve their situation. Some are complacent and/or are happy with where they are in life. Some are only interested in doing the bare minimum to get by. A big part of me wonders, who are we to judge? If all they want is to sit and watch TV, great then let them sit and watch TV. No skin off my back, in fact it puts me at an advantage, because I now have 1 less person to compete with for the things I want. I hope they are happy and achieve the goals that are important to them, and I mean that sincerely… I'm not going to judge, but don’t come whining to me when you suffer the consequences of your own bad decisions. On the other hand we also have some that desperately want a better life, but either cant, wont, or don’t achieve it because of negative influences beyond their own control. For those people, I hope they find the right people in their own life that can help them realize the dreams.

little_brown_dog

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Re: A great article about choices - Why Poor People Buy TVs
« Reply #45 on: January 03, 2017, 10:45:41 AM »
My 2c after working with the US urban poor…
Yes, a lot of impoverished people make poor financial planning choices. It’s kindof this thing many of us in public health/social services don’t like to talk about because it can seem like victim blaming, even though it is painfully obvious. But it is true to a certain extent – I have met people who would rather wear fancy jewelry than save what little money they have to make sure the rent is paid next month.

For those of us who didn’t grow up like this, this behavior seems stupid, irrational, selfish, pathetic. And it is in many ways, but in my experience, it isn’t because these people are lacking character or willpower or intelligence. Poverty breeds impulsive/stupid behavior and sets people up for it way before they actually have any say in how they spend money. Honestly, it was like the people I worked with were constantly being set up by fate/society/circumstances to always be vulnerable to making poor financial choices. A smattering of a few influences I remember:

Cognitive impacts – poor mothers in the US often suffer from unhealthy diets, malnutrition, lack of prenatal care, certain drug addictions, and increased pregnancy and birth complications. All of these things can have serious effects on babies, including cognitive development. Many kids born into poverty are starting out with potential cognitive/analytical processing handicaps on day 1. And since their families lack resources, these issues are rarely appropriately identified and/or treated and managed appropriately to set the child up for success. So kids with impulse control problems and learning disabilities are just left to a struggling school to handle...never getting the time, attention, and resources they need to mitigate the problem. These kids then become adults themselves, having babies and trying to survive.

Role modeling and dysfunctional environment – Wealthier kids are in general, surrounded by good role models when it comes to learning how to think through consequences, plan long term, delay gratification and control impulsivity, etc. They learn from their parents, siblings, extended families, teachers, peers, schools, etc all day every day that they need to be patient, wait their turn, think things through, plan for the future, and be responsible. Sure there might be a black sheep or two who is a dysfunctional wreck, but by and large I’d hazard to guess their environments and social contacts generally foster a sense of responsibility and long term planning. For many poor people, the scenario is exactly reversed. They may have a couple role models who are good at long term planning but their environments just don’t foster that practice nearly as much. Their parents are often products of the same types of environments and may be mediocre at best when it comes to finances or planning, and their schools are poorly resourced and full of disruptions/distractions/problems. You can’t become experienced at something as nuanced as effective prioritization if you are rarely shown it…it works best if you are immersed in it for a long time.

Exposures – poor kids in the US are at heightened risk for certain exposures like lead that also have measurable effects on cognition and behavior.

Respect culture – in many urban poor cultures, respect is a huge deal. Looking like you aren’t poor (or your kids aren’t poor) is often just as socially important if not more important than not actually being poor. Sure you would save money by shopping at goodwill and not putting your kid in a brand hoodie, but then that is a public admission that you can’t clothe your kids the way they deserve. With teens and young adults, respect culture can be so powerful it can turn violent.

Add all of this stuff up and it becomes easier to see why someone would do something as silly as prioritize a TV over a modicum of financial stability. If you are vulnerable to cognitive problems from in utero issues, exacerbated by an unhealthy living environment, and reinforced by a social environment that rarely gives you the opportunity to practice effective prioritization while encouraging showmanship, anyone can easily make questionable decisions. That's why its so awesome when people do manage to get out of these situations on their own....it's a small miracle in many ways.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2017, 10:50:43 AM by little_brown_dog »

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Re: A great article about choices - Why Poor People Buy TVs
« Reply #46 on: January 03, 2017, 12:31:23 PM »
Just so no one jumps on me, I know that the legal system/capitalism etc can be confusing, unjust and unfair. I also know that there is a cycle of poverty and generational poverty.

But I remember a passage in Walden where Mr. Thoreau says: "Often the poor man is not so cold and hungry as he is dirty and ragged and gross. It is partly his taste, and not merely his misfortune."

Many people are poor because they (often subconsciously) enforce poverty on themselves. Heck, I've made my share of bad financial decisions. This doesn't just apply to the poor. It applies to middle class and upper classes as well. Middle class people tend to stay middle class because they place blocks on themselves from entering the higher classes, often by thwarting themselves financially.

little_brown_dog

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Re: A great article about choices - Why Poor People Buy TVs
« Reply #47 on: January 03, 2017, 12:51:55 PM »
Just so no one jumps on me, I know that the legal system/capitalism etc can be confusing, unjust and unfair. I also know that there is a cycle of poverty and generational poverty.

But I remember a passage in Walden where Mr. Thoreau says: "Often the poor man is not so cold and hungry as he is dirty and ragged and gross. It is partly his taste, and not merely his misfortune."

Many people are poor because they (often subconsciously) enforce poverty on themselves. Heck, I've made my share of bad financial decisions. This doesn't just apply to the poor. It applies to middle class and upper classes as well. Middle class people tend to stay middle class because they place blocks on themselves from entering the higher classes, often by thwarting themselves financially.

Yes I think this is true…just because one is vulnerable or at high risk of making questionable financial decisions due to life circumstances, does not automatically mean that you MUST make said decisions. Having the odds stacked against you does not mean that you can’t make financially sound choices, it just means it will probably be a lot harder and require far more trial and error than someone who didn’t experience such difficulties. The whole thing is both depressing and empowering all at the same time. I think that is why so many of us love hearing rags to riches stories...

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Re: A great article about choices - Why Poor People Buy TVs
« Reply #48 on: January 03, 2017, 01:07:10 PM »
But I remember a passage in Walden where Mr. Thoreau says: "Often the poor man is not so cold and hungry as he is dirty and ragged and gross. It is partly his taste, and not merely his misfortune."

Good quote, good book too... I wish I could finish it, I've been trying for at least 4 years now. Every time I pick it up(I read before bed), I can only get through 1 page  before falling asleep lol. It isn't that I don't like the book, but it is mentally relaxing I guess : )

Classical_Liberal

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Re: A great article about choices - Why Poor People Buy TVs
« Reply #49 on: January 03, 2017, 01:15:41 PM »
Many people are poor because they (often subconsciously) enforce poverty on themselves. Heck, I've made my share of bad financial decisions. This doesn't just apply to the poor. It applies to middle class and upper classes as well. Middle class people tend to stay middle class because they place blocks on themselves from entering the higher classes, often by thwarting themselves financially.

I think this is true; the same way 99% of middle classers think about buying cars with credit, 99% of lower economic classes think about what they can get in the present.  It's also wanting to be like your social group and social positioning.  Yes, there is a "bad" side of the trailer park, I had friends who grew up on that side!

Another behavior that may be perplexing to the  middle class is the profound generosity between friends and family in the poorer economic classes.  It is very common place for a friend, sibling, etc to help you out if you're coming up short on rent (or offer a couch because it's already too late) thanks to a bad weekend at the casino... It's kind of expected, a form of insurance, next time it'll be your turn to help.  There is very much a mentality of "spend your money while you can", and this in the US with very stable institutions. Thoughts of the future are too grim and are avoided or glamorized (when I hit the jackpot, I'll...), so Carpe Diem.