Post by: DadJokes on November 25, 2019, 06:17:04 AM
To start things off:
Paying for parking is for millionaires. We go to sporting events downtown a dozen or so times per year, and all of the parking near the arena costs from $15-$30, depending on the day of the week. However, we park about 3/4 of a mile from the arena in a free lot and walk (regardless of weather). Not only is it free parking, but we get a little exercise and a great view of the city as we cross a pedestrian bridge over the river.
Post by: SaucyAussie on November 25, 2019, 06:20:24 AM
Post by: Freedomin5 on November 25, 2019, 07:00:30 AM
Post by: sabanist on November 25, 2019, 07:20:16 AM
I do pretty well and have sticker shock at what mechanics charge these days. Don't know how a low income person can afford it
Post by: Arbitrage on November 25, 2019, 08:52:47 AM
Post by: fattest_foot on November 25, 2019, 09:22:50 AM
I think getting any work done on your car is for millionaires. Get some tools, watch some videos and you'll save yourself thousands per year.
I do pretty well and have sticker shock at what mechanics charge these days. Don't know how a low income person can afford it
I've seen lots of mobile car detailing around where we live lately. Like, really, you're going to pay someone to vacuum your car out? Or wash it?
Similarly, I'd say having a house cleaner is for millionaires.
Post by: solon on November 25, 2019, 09:39:10 AM
Post by: fat-johnny on November 25, 2019, 11:24:04 AM
From Wikipedia: “Known for avoiding attention, Forbes magazine once described him as "the shiest billionaire"
Post by: Monocle Money Mouth on November 25, 2019, 11:50:18 AM
The CEO/founder of my $2.5B company was known for being quite frugal. He lived in a HUUGE house in an affluent community. House was probably built in the 1930’s or so, and as such never had central air conditioning. Until he died in the late 1990’s, he never had air conditioning installed in his house. When asked why, he would simply reply “Air conditioning is for rich people.”
From Wikipedia: “Known for avoiding attention, Forbes magazine once described him as "the shiest billionaire"
My dad worked at Swagelok. He said Fred Lennon did his own yardwork too. My dad is prone to making shit up though, so that may or may not be true.
Hiring someone to mow your lawn is for millionaires. If the story about Fred Lennon is true, it's not even for billionaires. You need to be at minimum a trillionaire in order to even think about hiring someone to mow your lawn :D
On a more serious note, I have several co-workers that make less than me who hire landscapers. These guys are financial messes. They have student loan debt, car leases, and houses that are too expensive. Their lives could be so much better financially if they just made a few tweaks. They're just too short sighted to see it. If a task involves any physical discomfort, intellectual discomfort, or a change in habits, they don't want to do it.
Post by: FIRE47 on November 25, 2019, 02:19:30 PM
You can't do anything unless you make more than him now, how dare you working serfs make any decision out of convenience? I would hardly say ordering pizza is a luxury, order some pizza for $20 you have a supper and a couple lunches the next day for 2 people - there are worse financial sins.
I understand the point he is making and once you add in compound interest the cost of everything is steep, but you have to draw the line somewhere and to me that line is above the level of ordering the cheapest takeout food there is. Sometimes the juice just isnt worth the squeeze and in this case MMM has squeezed a very small glass of sour lemonade.
Post by: Bateaux on November 25, 2019, 05:08:11 PM
Putzing around on FIRE forums is for millionaires.
I guess there is lost opportunity costs there. My time here is time not searched on Amazon Prime for worthless crap.
Post by: Freedomin5 on November 25, 2019, 07:14:19 PM
I think there is a danger in this line of thinking coming off a bit snobby now that MMM makes hundreds of thousands a year and is worth what, 5-10 Million?
You can't do anything unless you make more than him now, how dare you working serfs make any decision out of convenience? I would hardly say ordering pizza is a luxury, order some pizza for $20 you have a supper and a couple lunches the next day for 2 people - there are worse financial sins.
I understand the point he is making and once you add in compound interest the cost of everything is steep, but you have to draw the line somewhere and to me that line is above the level of ordering the cheapest takeout food there is. Sometimes the juice just isnt worth the squeeze and in this case MMM has squeezed a very small glass of sour lemonade.
You know this is just for fun, right? I don't think he's trying to say you need to cut out Every. Single. Little. Luxury from your life because, as you have mentioned, you can always go cheaper. It's about developing a questioning mentality towards what you do spend, rather than just mindlessly spending because "ordering pizza is just a little thing that doesn't cost that much". And it's about realizing that having a good day and doing fun, fulfilling things do not necessarily need to cost a lot of money.
Post by: roomtempmayo on November 25, 2019, 07:37:20 PM
Post by: RWD on November 25, 2019, 07:43:58 PM
I understand the point he is making and once you add in compound interest the cost of everything is steep, but you have to draw the line somewhere and to me that line is above the level of ordering the cheapest takeout food there is. Sometimes the juice just isnt worth the squeeze and in this case MMM has squeezed a very small glass of sour lemonade.Does he sound sour? I understood the point of his post to be that the cheaper options are actually better for overall life enjoyment. Making pizza at home with family sounds way more fun to me than ordering fancy takeout.
Post by: Kazyan on November 25, 2019, 09:59:08 PM
Post by: sui generis on November 25, 2019, 10:37:03 PM
Post by: SpaceCow on November 25, 2019, 10:40:43 PM
I think there is a danger in this line of thinking coming off a bit snobby now that MMM makes hundreds of thousands a year and is worth what, 5-10 Million?
You can't do anything unless you make more than him now, how dare you working serfs make any decision out of convenience? I would hardly say ordering pizza is a luxury, order some pizza for $20 you have a supper and a couple lunches the next day for 2 people - there are worse financial sins.
I understand the point he is making and once you add in compound interest the cost of everything is steep, but you have to draw the line somewhere and to me that line is above the level of ordering the cheapest takeout food there is. Sometimes the juice just isnt worth the squeeze and in this case MMM has squeezed a very small glass of sour lemonade.
I agree. I get a sense of paternalism from the statement "X is for millionaires" which makes me feel uneasy. I'm not a millionaire, but my bills get paid on time. I'm not in debt. It is perfectly reasonable for me to choose pizza delivery over a slightly earlier retirement. "X is for millionaires" makes it sound like I don't have a right to purchase something you deem too luxurious for a sub-millionaire peon like me.
Post by: HPstache on November 25, 2019, 10:53:05 PM
Post by: Hirondelle on November 26, 2019, 12:06:33 AM
Post by: Linea_Norway on November 26, 2019, 02:46:32 AM
Post by: soccerluvof4 on November 26, 2019, 03:31:32 AM
Post by: Metalcat on November 26, 2019, 06:48:04 AM
I think there is a danger in this line of thinking coming off a bit snobby now that MMM makes hundreds of thousands a year and is worth what, 5-10 Million?
You can't do anything unless you make more than him now, how dare you working serfs make any decision out of convenience? I would hardly say ordering pizza is a luxury, order some pizza for $20 you have a supper and a couple lunches the next day for 2 people - there are worse financial sins.
I understand the point he is making and once you add in compound interest the cost of everything is steep, but you have to draw the line somewhere and to me that line is above the level of ordering the cheapest takeout food there is. Sometimes the juice just isnt worth the squeeze and in this case MMM has squeezed a very small glass of sour lemonade.
I agree. I get a sense of paternalism from the statement "X is for millionaires" which makes me feel uneasy. I'm not a millionaire, but my bills get paid on time. I'm not in debt. It is perfectly reasonable for me to choose pizza delivery over a slightly earlier retirement. "X is for millionaires" makes it sound like I don't have a right to purchase something you deem too luxurious for a sub-millionaire peon like me.
MMM has literally always been paternalistic and patronizing, it's a HUGE part of his personal brand.
Underneath that, the message is to always question these little indulgent expenses and really examine if they actually add anything into your life or if they're just habits society deems acceptable, like ordering pizza.
Pete is brilliant at agitating people into reading his content, but underneath the bluster is always the same solid content, which is that we should never stop questioning what we choose to spend on and why.
For the sake of keeping this meant-to-be-fun thread on track, I'll contribute my own content despite the fact that I don't actually judge anyone for what they choose to spend on.
Salon haircolour is for millionaires, sure colourists are experts and can do amazing things, but it's just hair colour, and doing it yourself costs at most $10/mo, while professional colour can be several hundred.
Manicures are for millionaires. Paint your own damn nails! That said, I don't judge anyone for the occasional pedicure, that's a whole other thing with the foot bath and massage chair, etc. Dammit, I want a pedicure now.
Little packets of spices from the grocery store are for millionaires who don't care about food actually tasting good. $4 for a bag of vaguely oregano flavoured sawdust? No thanks.
Designer back packs are for millionaires. I live in a building with a lot of university students and they all carry the same brand of canvas backpack. I saw one in a store and just about did a spit-take when I saw that they retail for nearly $100! For a canvas back pack!
It reminds me of those vinyl Longchamp bags, same friggin' deal.
Smoking is for millionaires. That shit is CRAZY expensive here! A pack is up to nearly $20 now. WTF???
Vaping is probably for millionaires, but I have no idea what it costs. I'm just guessing it's expensive like cigarettes.
Paying for a gym membership when you have a gym in your building that almost no one uses is for millionaires. Our gym is an ugly, windowless basement gym, but we all pay for it with condo fees, so the people who have memberships across the street at the fancy gym are paying twice.
Breakfast cereal is for millionaires. I haven't bought it in a few decades, but a coworker just told me how much it costs to keep her two teenagers fed for breakfast. I...I'm still in shock. It's almost as expensive as cigarettes.
Beef is for millionaires. Might even be more expensive than cigarettes.
Now for a few that I'm totally guilty of
Purebred pets are for millionaires. I have my reasons, mostly to do with allergies, but I've spent several thousand on cats. Ridiculous.
Elta MD sunscreen is for millionares. It's nearly $50 for a tiny bottle. Ouch.
Ice Breaker merino wool clothing is for millionaires. In "Thrift Shop" Macklemore makes fun of a t-shirt costing $50. An Ice Breaker under shirt costs over $100, and I just realized is made in China. Oof...most of my wardrobe is Ice Breaker.
Dance lessons are for millionaires.
So expensive :( but also so much fun :)
Robots are for millionaires.
Robot vacuum, robot cat litter box, Nest thermostat, etc. Between that and all of the motion sensor lights in my very dated high-rise apartment, it's kind of like living in the Jetsons, like a 70s version of futuristic.
Post by: Freedomin5 on November 26, 2019, 07:11:49 AM
I think there is a danger in this line of thinking coming off a bit snobby now that MMM makes hundreds of thousands a year and is worth what, 5-10 Million?
You can't do anything unless you make more than him now, how dare you working serfs make any decision out of convenience? I would hardly say ordering pizza is a luxury, order some pizza for $20 you have a supper and a couple lunches the next day for 2 people - there are worse financial sins.
I understand the point he is making and once you add in compound interest the cost of everything is steep, but you have to draw the line somewhere and to me that line is above the level of ordering the cheapest takeout food there is. Sometimes the juice just isnt worth the squeeze and in this case MMM has squeezed a very small glass of sour lemonade.
I agree. I get a sense of paternalism from the statement "X is for millionaires" which makes me feel uneasy. I'm not a millionaire, but my bills get paid on time. I'm not in debt. It is perfectly reasonable for me to choose pizza delivery over a slightly earlier retirement. "X is for millionaires" makes it sound like I don't have a right to purchase something you deem too luxurious for a sub-millionaire peon like me.
MMM has literally always been paternalistic and patronizing, it's a HUGE part of his personal brand.
Underneath that, the message is to always question these little indulgent expenses and really examine if they actually add anything into your life or if they're just habits society deems acceptable, like ordering pizza.
Pete is brilliant at agitating people into reading his content, but underneath the bluster is always the same solid content, which is that we should never stop questioning what we choose to spend on and why.
For the sake of keeping this meant-to-be-fun thread on track, I'll contribute my own content despite the fact that I don't actually judge anyone for what they choose to spend on.
Salon haircolour is for millionaires, sure colourists are experts and can do amazing things, but it's just hair colour, and doing it yourself costs at most $10/mo, while professional colour can be several hundred.
Manicures are for millionaires. Paint your own damn nails! That said, I don't judge anyone for the occasional pedicure, that's a whole other thing with the foot bath and massage chair, etc. Dammit, I want a pedicure now.
Little packets of spices from the grocery store are for millionaires who don't care about food actually tasting good. $4 for a bag of vaguely oregano flavoured sawdust? No thanks.
Designer back packs are for millionaires. I live in a building with a lot of university students and they all carry the same brand of canvas backpack. I saw one in a store and just about did a spit-take when I saw that they retail for nearly $100! For a canvas back pack!
It reminds me of those vinyl Longchamp bags, same friggin' deal.
Smoking is for millionaires. That shit is CRAZY expensive here! A pack is up to nearly $20 now. WTF???
Vaping is probably for millionaires, but I have no idea what it costs. I'm just guessing it's expensive like cigarettes.
Paying for a gym membership when you have a gym in your building that almost no one uses is for millionaires. Our gym is an ugly, windowless basement gym, but we all pay for it with condo fees, so the people who have memberships across the street at the fancy gym are paying twice.
Breakfast cereal is for millionaires. I haven't bought it in a few decades, but a coworker just told me how much it costs to keep her two teenagers fed for breakfast. I...I'm still in shock. It's almost as expensive as cigarettes.
Beef is for millionaires. Might even be more expensive than cigarettes.
Now for a few that I'm totally guilty of
Purebred pets are for millionaires. I have my reasons, mostly to do with allergies, but I've spent several thousand on cats. Ridiculous.
Elta MD sunscreen is for millionares. It's nearly $50 for a tiny bottle. Ouch.
Ice Breaker merino wool clothing is for millionaires. In "Thrift Shop" Macklemore makes fun of a t-shirt costing $50. An Ice Breaker under shirt costs over $100, and I just realized is made in China. Oof...most of my wardrobe is Ice Breaker.
Dance lessons are for millionaires.
So expensive :( but also so much fun :)
Robots are for millionaires.
Robot vacuum, robot cat litter box, Nest thermostat, etc. Between that and all of the motion sensor lights in my very dated high-rise apartment, it's kind of like living in the Jetsons, like a 70s version of futuristic.
When I saw that Ice Breaker is made in China, I had to look it up. It’s $40-$50 Cdn on Taobao, probably being sold by the factory that manufactures it.
Post by: SaucyAussie on November 26, 2019, 07:15:13 AM
I think there is a danger in this line of thinking coming off a bit snobby now that MMM makes hundreds of thousands a year and is worth what, 5-10 Million?
You can't do anything unless you make more than him now, how dare you working serfs make any decision out of convenience? I would hardly say ordering pizza is a luxury, order some pizza for $20 you have a supper and a couple lunches the next day for 2 people - there are worse financial sins.
I understand the point he is making and once you add in compound interest the cost of everything is steep, but you have to draw the line somewhere and to me that line is above the level of ordering the cheapest takeout food there is. Sometimes the juice just isnt worth the squeeze and in this case MMM has squeezed a very small glass of sour lemonade.
The ".... is for millionaires" part is tongue in cheek. It's just meant to make you look hard at your expenditures, not laws set in stone.
Post by: Cranky on November 26, 2019, 07:20:19 AM
Keeping up to date with fashion is for millionaires. You can wear the same clothes until they get holes in them.
Surprisingly, you can also keep wearing clothes after they get holes in them.
Post by: undercover on November 26, 2019, 07:55:00 AM
Post by: Metalcat on November 26, 2019, 07:57:12 AM
Keeping up to date with fashion is for millionaires. You can wear the same clothes until they get holes in them.
Wait... are you telling me I'm supposed to replace my clothes when they get holes in them? You must be very wealthy! :)
(EDIT: @Cranky beat me to it!)
As someone who is tall, a little clumsy, and does a lot of messing around with firewood and lumber, I need to find holes in my clothing pretty quickly. All of my "work pants" (that is, the ones I wear at home when doing physical work) have big holes in the knees. I have never had a pair of jeans last me more than a few years without wearing out.
Of course, to disagree with the above - I once bought a Honda Fit brand new. I should've kept it "forever" but I sold it (privately, not trade) after 4 years. It hadn't depreciated too terribly and it was one of my lower cost vehicles over time. I was not a millionaire then ;)
Actually, in general, I'm just around to disagree ha!
To be fair, the pp did specifically compare buying used to getting a deal on a used car. To me, that assumes that they weren't talking about buying a lightly used car that holds its value well.
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 26, 2019, 08:30:15 AM
Making lots of money and then saving/investing it in an amount that leads to at least a million dollars is for millionaires? *shrug* that’s the best I got. I must be boring, but I don’t think there are any rules on what you can and can’t spend along the way. Being cheap in general will get you there as long as you have the income though.
Yup
Brand new vehicles
This is one I agree with. Even millionaire FIRE bloggers don't buy new vehicles. MrTako ($3M and wife is working) just bought a used, dented 10k vehicle (https://www.mrtakoescapes.com/mr-octopus-gets-a-new-car/) / RoG ($2M) bought a used mini-van, etc. So my take-away is that even when FIRE folks hit millionaire status, they are the same frugal people (just with more money).
But yeah, if you want to be a millionaire as soon as possible, focus on the big stuff like cars and housing. Big wins there will buy years of ER. Little stuff like pizza vs. making your own at home is more for a psychological win (at least here in Houston where we can get take-away pizza for ~$10). Personally, we balance making our own and buying pizza because making the crust our-self is healthier and making personal pizzas is a fun sleep over activity for the kids.
Post by: Linea_Norway on November 26, 2019, 10:07:56 AM
Keeping up to date with fashion is for millionaires. You can wear the same clothes until they get holes in them.
Wait... are you telling me I'm supposed to replace my clothes when they get holes in them? You must be very wealthy! :)
(EDIT: @Cranky beat me to it!)
As someone who is tall, a little clumsy, and does a lot of messing around with firewood and lumber, I need to find holes in my clothing pretty quickly. All of my "work pants" (that is, the ones I wear at home when doing physical work) have big holes in the knees. I have never had a pair of jeans last me more than a few years without wearing out.
You are of course allowed to walk around in clothes with holes in them, or repair the holes, which I often do. It's just that I don't think a Mustachian is obligated to walk around in clothes full of holes just to save money.
Post by: DadJokes on November 26, 2019, 10:37:44 AM
Keeping up to date with fashion is for millionaires. You can wear the same clothes until they get holes in them.
Wait... are you telling me I'm supposed to replace my clothes when they get holes in them? You must be very wealthy! :)
(EDIT: @Cranky beat me to it!)
As someone who is tall, a little clumsy, and does a lot of messing around with firewood and lumber, I need to find holes in my clothing pretty quickly. All of my "work pants" (that is, the ones I wear at home when doing physical work) have big holes in the knees. I have never had a pair of jeans last me more than a few years without wearing out.
You are of course allowed to walk around in clothes with holes in them, or repair the holes, which I often do. It's just that I don't think a Mustachian is obligated to walk around in clothes full of holes just to save money.
All of my clothes have holes- that's how I get my head and limbs into the clothing.
Post by: terran on November 26, 2019, 10:50:45 AM
Making lots of money and then saving/investing it in an amount that leads to at least a million dollars is for millionaires? *shrug* that’s the best I got. I must be boring, but I don’t think there are any rules on what you can and can’t spend along the way. Being cheap in general will get you there as long as you have the income though.
YupBrand new vehicles
This is one I agree with. Even millionaire FIRE bloggers don't buy new vehicles. MrTako ($3M and wife is working) just bought a used, dented 10k vehicle (https://www.mrtakoescapes.com/mr-octopus-gets-a-new-car/) / RoG ($2M) bought a used mini-van, etc. So my take-away is that even when FIRE folks hit millionaire status, they are the same frugal people (just with more money).
But yeah, if you want to be a millionaire as soon as possible, focus on the big stuff like cars and housing. Big wins there will buy years of ER. Little stuff like pizza vs. making your own at home is more for a psychological win (at least here in Houston where we can get take-away pizza for ~$10). Personally, we balance making our own and buying pizza because making the crust our-self is healthier and making personal pizzas is a fun sleep over activity for the kids.
Counterpoint: Jim Collins, author of The Simple Path to Wealth (https://jlcollinsnh.com/2019/11/06/why-we-bought-a-brand-new-car/).
Post by: robartsd on November 26, 2019, 12:05:57 PM
Anything that involves the words "horses," "boat," and/or "towing."Unless the towing is moving things with a bike trailer.
Of course there are lots of things wrong with the article. MMM HQ is the biggest - that truly is for millionaires. Sure it's better than the vacation home he compares it to, but I imagine the capital is seriously under-performing if you look at it as an investment.
High-speed internet is for millionaires, or for businesses that depend on it. You can get the slow version and it'll be fine--any plan available these days has fast enough internet for even a junkie like me.So true. You only need 5-7 mbps for HD video, my provider's lowest tier is currently 20 mbps.
Post by: Kazyan on November 26, 2019, 12:44:29 PM
How are you defining high speed internet? I assume anything above 56.6 kbps?
I don't want to go into a full caveat-filled dissertation about an off-handed comment to fit everyone's situation, but generally, your service provider will offer internet at different speed tiers, all of which are measured in Mbps. They all do what you want, fast enough for it not to matter which one you pick.
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 26, 2019, 01:20:50 PM
Counterpoint: Jim Collins, author of The Simple Path to Wealth (https://jlcollinsnh.com/2019/11/06/why-we-bought-a-brand-new-car/).Brand new vehiclesThis is one I agree with.
Even Jim Collins seems to say that millionaires should not buy new cars. In the article, he says he's been FI since 1989 and his first new car is being bought in 2019! He goes on to talk about wanting to hand the car over to his wife when he passes on, that they are nomadic and thus rely on their car more than most, and they need the AWD for snow. There's also some weird stuff about how they must've gotten a 'deal' since they 'had to take a loan' and 'not buy the lowest cost' - but he hasn't revealed that bit yet.
For what it's worth, I bought I brand new 2015 Honda Fit for $17k (my first new car) and it's been cheaper over-all than owning the used MiniCooper my Dad sold me for $7k (but needed repairs (and started failing emissions tests because of the catalytic converter), expensive maintenance, and low resale value). But I really did love that MiniCooper, the Fit is just a lukewarm romance.
I originally was going to be really grumpy and respond to this thread that getting medical care or dental care work done is for millionaires...
Post by: RWD on November 26, 2019, 01:29:57 PM
How are you defining high speed internet? I assume anything above 56.6 kbps?
I don't want to go into a full caveat-filled dissertation about an off-handed comment to fit everyone's situation, but generally, your service provider will offer internet at different speed tiers, all of which are measured in Mbps. They all do what you want, fast enough for it not to matter which one you pick.
The ISP I chose only offers one tier and it is not measured in Mbps (1 Gbps for $80/month). Also, I work from home so internet speed and stability are extremely important. I had a slower connection (~5 Mbps?) at our previous residence and it severely impacted my work.
Post by: BicycleB on November 26, 2019, 01:52:03 PM
For the sake of keeping this meant-to-be-fun thread on track, I'll contribute my own content despite the fact that I don't actually judge anyone for what they choose to spend on.
...
Little packets of spices from the grocery store are for millionaires who don't care about food actually tasting good. $4 for a bag of vaguely oregano flavoured sawdust? No thanks.
But...but...I buy little packets of spices all the time! (Every few months).
Like this:
ETA - On second thought, you're right... I'm not a millionaire!
Post by: Kazyan on November 26, 2019, 02:05:58 PM
Hmm, so I assume that the cheapest option, which I have, is not high-speed.
(It's 100 Mbps in both directions for $40. But that's the cheapest they offer! Did I mention I'm here to cause trouble? I'm seeing how affordable it is.)
People like you are why people like me turn into rambling lunatics, who either 1) overexplain everything they say in off-putting ways or 2) don't speak at all.
Post by: robartsd on November 26, 2019, 04:04:38 PM
The ISP I chose only offers one tier and it is not measured in Mbps (1 Gbps for $80/month). Also, I work from home so internet speed and stability are extremely important. I had a slower connection (~5 Mbps?) at our previous residence and it severely impacted my work.Stability and speed are not the same thing and speed has more important factors than the download speed advertised. Up-link speed is frequently slower on residential service than download speed. This could be a problem for those uploading large files or hosting video conferences. Low-latency is important for online interaction with others, you're most likely to notice a difference between connections when video conferencing.
Bottom line is that gig speed internet isn't really what you want even though it is what the consumer sucka ads sell. It is the numbers they aren't selling that will be more important to your experience. Usually you can find the rated up-link speed of a plan in the fine print. Latency has a lot of factors, only a few of which are controlled by your ISP so your ISP can't easily sum up what they provide with a number. A provider's latency is likely the same regardless of download speed you subscribe to. You get some idea of these speed factors for your connection by visiting a speed test site (often they also have profiles of providers in your area based on speed tests others have run).
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 26, 2019, 04:43:39 PM
Post by: Sand101 on November 26, 2019, 05:04:19 PM
Post by: Cranky on November 26, 2019, 05:05:58 PM
Grubhub/Doordash is for millionaires. Not just eating out, but paying for eating out to be delivered. Burning money.
What amazes me is that people will pay to have McDonalds delivered.
Post by: Just Joe on November 26, 2019, 05:09:03 PM
I think getting any work done on your car is for millionaires. Get some tools, watch some videos and you'll save yourself thousands per year.
I do pretty well and have sticker shock at what mechanics charge these days. Don't know how a low income person can afford it
THAT!
Post by: Sand101 on November 26, 2019, 05:09:11 PM
Grubhub/Doordash is for millionaires. Not just eating out, but paying for eating out to be delivered. Burning money.
What amazes me is that people will pay to have McDonalds delivered.
100% percent chance of cold fries. Heresy!
Post by: RWD on November 26, 2019, 06:46:29 PM
My connection has stability, speed, and low latency. I've only noticed an internet hiccup once in 3.5 years and only for a few minutes. My upload speed is just as fast as my download speed (see attached speed test).The ISP I chose only offers one tier and it is not measured in Mbps (1 Gbps for $80/month). Also, I work from home so internet speed and stability are extremely important. I had a slower connection (~5 Mbps?) at our previous residence and it severely impacted my work.Stability and speed are not the same thing and speed has more important factors than the download speed advertised. Up-link speed is frequently slower on residential service than download speed. This could be a problem for those uploading large files or hosting video conferences. Low-latency is important for online interaction with others, you're most likely to notice a difference between connections when video conferencing.
Bottom line is that gig speed internet isn't really what you want even though it is what the consumer sucka ads sell. It is the numbers they aren't selling that will be more important to your experience. Usually you can find the rated up-link speed of a plan in the fine print. Latency has a lot of factors, only a few of which are controlled by your ISP so your ISP can't easily sum up what they provide with a number. A provider's latency is likely the same regardless of download speed you subscribe to. You get some idea of these speed factors for your connection by visiting a speed test site (often they also have profiles of providers in your area based on speed tests others have run).
I did not choose my ISP because of some advertisement and I don't particularly appreciate you implying that I don't know my own real connection performance. I deliberately looked for the best possible internet connection I could get in the city I currently live in. In fact, it was one of our criteria when house shopping, that the house was served by this specific ISP.
In addition in 3.5 years this ISP hasn't once tried to raise my rate or sell me other services. Not that it would matter much to me if they did, as my company pays 100% of my internet bill.
Post by: albireo13 on November 26, 2019, 06:47:43 PM
Post by: Firehazard on November 26, 2019, 08:38:18 PM
Post by: Metalcat on November 26, 2019, 08:41:14 PM
Canned beans are for rich people. We buy dry beans and cook them ourselves. And they are so much better tasting than canned.
I was actually thinking of adding this to my post.
Post by: Linea_Norway on November 27, 2019, 12:33:02 AM
Ah, I’ve got one - paying to run a 5k is for millionaires. Don’t people know running is free?
Running on a threadmill in a gym is for millionaires. You can run for free outside (after buying some spike shoes and reflexes for the winter).
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 27, 2019, 12:56:10 AM
I ran outside all through the winter in Norway - the electrically heated floor of the bathroom after the shower was heavenly!Ah, I’ve got one - paying to run a 5k is for millionaires. Don’t people know running is free?Running on a threadmill in a gym is for millionaires. You can run for free outside (after buying some spike shoes and reflexes for the winter).
Post by: damyst on November 27, 2019, 01:29:44 AM
Keeping up to date with fashion is for millionaires. You can wear the same clothes until they get holes in them.
Wait... are you telling me I'm supposed to replace my clothes when they get holes in them? You must be very wealthy! :)
(EDIT: @Cranky beat me to it!)
As someone who is tall, a little clumsy, and does a lot of messing around with firewood and lumber, I need to find holes in my clothing pretty quickly. All of my "work pants" (that is, the ones I wear at home when doing physical work) have big holes in the knees. I have never had a pair of jeans last me more than a few years without wearing out.
You are of course allowed to walk around in clothes with holes in them, or repair the holes, which I often do. It's just that I don't think a Mustachian is obligated to walk around in clothes full of holes just to save money.
All of my clothes have holes- that's how I get my head and limbs into the clothing.
Username checks out.
Post by: Just Joe on November 27, 2019, 08:25:46 AM
Eliminates the need for a pickup truck along with truck repairs, truck maintenance, higher fuel bills, truck insurance, etc. Person does not need a more expensive four door truck to act as family vehicle, can stick with four seater sedan/hatchback/wagon/CUV and still bring home all sorts of things safely. Eliminate delivery charges a few times, carry off your own garbage for a year - and that trailer is paid for.
Post by: raincoast on November 27, 2019, 09:11:57 AM
I ran outside all through the winter in Norway - the electrically heated floor of the bathroom after the shower was heavenly!Ah, I’ve got one - paying to run a 5k is for millionaires. Don’t people know running is free?Running on a threadmill in a gym is for millionaires. You can run for free outside (after buying some spike shoes and reflexes for the winter).
I ran all through the winter when I lived in Montreal and Ottawa. With spikes for your shoes, nice wool socks, and a basic knowledge of layering, it's not that difficult. I didn't have a heated bathroom floor though.
Post by: LennStar on November 27, 2019, 09:34:15 AM
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 27, 2019, 09:55:08 AM
I ran outside all through the winter in Norway - the electrically heated floor of the bathroom after the shower was heavenly!Ah, I’ve got one - paying to run a 5k is for millionaires. Don’t people know running is free?Running on a threadmill in a gym is for millionaires. You can run for free outside (after buying some spike shoes and reflexes for the winter).
I ran all through the winter when I lived in Montreal and Ottawa. With spikes for your shoes, nice wool socks, and a basic knowledge of layering, it's not that difficult. I didn't have a heated bathroom floor though.
When you hit a million, you’ll have heated floors :)
Post by: golfreak12 on November 28, 2019, 11:59:41 AM
My wife finally convinced me of this.
Perfect example. I used to do our lawn.
On my off day, I'd spent around ~3 hrs of my day cutting edging cleaning up my lawn and I always put it off until the lawn are out of control.
My wife would always say you make too much money, pay someone to do it.
If I just spent 1 extra hour working, I can make more than enough to pay for 1 lawn cut($30 for a lawn cut).
So spent 1 extra hour working which takes very little effort or 3 hours on my free time to do lawn which I don't enjoy very much.
Yeah, I'm choosing to pay for lawn care now.
Post by: SwissMiss on November 28, 2019, 01:37:13 PM
Ah, I’ve got one - paying to run a 5k is for millionaires. Don’t people know running is free?
Not if you’re fast enough to win. I paid USD 30 to participate in a Turkey Trot this morning, won in the Grandmaster category and got lots of freebies to make up for the fee.
Mustachians are speedy runners.
Post by: seattlecyclone on November 28, 2019, 01:48:37 PM
If I just spent 1 extra hour working, I can make more than enough to pay for 1 lawn cut($30 for a lawn cut).
So spent 1 extra hour working which takes very little effort or 3 hours on my free time to do lawn which I don't enjoy very much.
Yeah, I'm choosing to pay for lawn care now.
This logic can hold up if (and only if) you have the ability to take on extra work in your profession for extra pay. Many jobs don't really have that option, either because they're salaried or because the hours are pretty well fixed and the employer isn't interested in paying overtime. Do remember to consider the after-tax amount you make working, at your top marginal rate, when deciding on this trade-off.
Post by: Bloop Bloop on November 28, 2019, 06:26:20 PM
If I just spent 1 extra hour working, I can make more than enough to pay for 1 lawn cut($30 for a lawn cut).
So spent 1 extra hour working which takes very little effort or 3 hours on my free time to do lawn which I don't enjoy very much.
Yeah, I'm choosing to pay for lawn care now.
This logic can hold up if (and only if) you have the ability to take on extra work in your profession for extra pay. Many jobs don't really have that option, either because they're salaried or because the hours are pretty well fixed and the employer isn't interested in paying overtime. Do remember to consider the after-tax amount you make working, at your top marginal rate, when deciding on this trade-off.
If you're a self-employed tradesman, doctor or lawyer in an industry with good demand, this is the case. This explains why I usually don't bother to deprive myself of a small indulgence, time saving, or effort saving under say $20: if it's worthwhile, and I genuinely want it, I get it. As long as I don't mind billing an extra 6 minutes (1 unit) that day. Recurring expenses and lifestyle expenses are a different category where more caution is needed.
But that's because I don't mind working and I dislike a lot of physical tasks other than exercise. For someone who dislikes working intensely and enjoys DIY tasks, the equation would be completely different.
Post by: golfreak12 on November 28, 2019, 10:23:42 PM
If I just spent 1 extra hour working, I can make more than enough to pay for 1 lawn cut($30 for a lawn cut).
So spent 1 extra hour working which takes very little effort or 3 hours on my free time to do lawn which I don't enjoy very much.
Yeah, I'm choosing to pay for lawn care now.
This logic can hold up if (and only if) you have the ability to take on extra work in your profession for extra pay. Many jobs don't really have that option, either because they're salaried or because the hours are pretty well fixed and the employer isn't interested in paying overtime. Do remember to consider the after-tax amount you make working, at your top marginal rate, when deciding on this trade-off.
Agreed !! This does hold true with me though.
Plenty of opportunities for me to work extra hours so yeah opportunity cost is a huge factor for me.
Post by: soccerluvof4 on November 29, 2019, 03:17:27 AM
Post by: Bloop Bloop on November 29, 2019, 03:56:53 AM
If I just spent 1 extra hour working, I can make more than enough to pay for 1 lawn cut($30 for a lawn cut).
So spent 1 extra hour working which takes very little effort or 3 hours on my free time to do lawn which I don't enjoy very much.
Yeah, I'm choosing to pay for lawn care now.
This logic can hold up if (and only if) you have the ability to take on extra work in your profession for extra pay. Many jobs don't really have that option, either because they're salaried or because the hours are pretty well fixed and the employer isn't interested in paying overtime. Do remember to consider the after-tax amount you make working, at your top marginal rate, when deciding on this trade-off.
Agreed !! This does hold true with me though.
Plenty of opportunities for me to work extra hours so yeah opportunity cost is a huge factor for me.
I find it interesting that some people will question others' spending but they won't question others' earning in the same way.
On these forums you might get criticised for spending $15 on lunch instead of bringing your own - but rarely is anyone criticised for failing to pass med school so that she could become a specialist and bill $300/hour instead of $60/hour. But they're two sides of the sam coin.
Post by: Metalcat on November 29, 2019, 04:27:34 AM
If I just spent 1 extra hour working, I can make more than enough to pay for 1 lawn cut($30 for a lawn cut).
So spent 1 extra hour working which takes very little effort or 3 hours on my free time to do lawn which I don't enjoy very much.
Yeah, I'm choosing to pay for lawn care now.
This logic can hold up if (and only if) you have the ability to take on extra work in your profession for extra pay. Many jobs don't really have that option, either because they're salaried or because the hours are pretty well fixed and the employer isn't interested in paying overtime. Do remember to consider the after-tax amount you make working, at your top marginal rate, when deciding on this trade-off.
Agreed !! This does hold true with me though.
Plenty of opportunities for me to work extra hours so yeah opportunity cost is a huge factor for me.
I find it interesting that some people will question others' spending but they won't question others' earning in the same way.
On these forums you might get criticised for spending $15 on lunch instead of bringing your own - but rarely is anyone criticised for failing to pass med school so that she could become a specialist and bill $300/hour instead of $60/hour. But they're two sides of the sam coin.
You bring this up a lot, but it's simply not true.
Most case studies get a quick response of "you need to increase your income" if the person isn't earning a lot.
In the meantime, even if a thread like this is clearly for fun, it never takes long for people to start defending spending.
Overall, the forum has become quite hospitable to people talking about luxury spending.
These days, there seem to be a lot more high earner/high(er) spenders like you and me around here than low earner/very low spenders.
Post by: Bloop Bloop on November 29, 2019, 06:08:28 AM
Often I read on this forum, "There is no reason to not pack your own lunch, it's so much cheaper and healthier"/ "Why drive when you can bike, it's cheaper and healthier" or similar sentiments. There is a lot of truth in those sentiments in a lot of situations. But it is not often that I see posts saying "There is no reason not to get a scholarship, it's cheaper and more efficient".
And even where, as you say, there is a point brought up - "if you increase your income you will save more", that's not usually said in the same judgmental tone as the corollary, "if you decrease your spending you will save more".
Post by: Metalcat on November 29, 2019, 06:17:46 AM
I will agree with you when there is an (even joking) thread that criticises people for failing to maximise their income in the same way that this joking thread criticises failing to maximise frugality!
Often I read on this forum, "There is no reason to not pack your own lunch, it's so much cheaper and healthier"/ "Why drive when you can bike, it's cheaper and healthier" or similar sentiments. There is a lot of truth in those sentiments in a lot of situations. But it is not often that I see posts saying "There is no reason not to get a scholarship, it's cheaper and more efficient".
And even where, as you say, there is a point brought up - "if you increase your income you will save more", that's not usually said in the same judgmental tone as the corollary, "if you decrease your spending you will save more".
When I posted my previous reply to you, I had literally just closed two consecutive tabs of threads that had posts that very specifically and explicitly criticized people very judgementally (and justifiably) for not maximizing education and careers.
That said, this is the MMM forum, so a heavy focus on frugality is appropriate as that's the main theme of Pete's blog. In fact, he has specific posts about how decreasing spending is more beneficial than increasing income.
Post by: undercover on November 29, 2019, 07:49:28 AM
People use these forums as a way of staying accountable more than anything I think because the normal world is full of “spend spend spend” and then this community/blog is in sharp opposition to that. Why would anyone come here wanting to be encouraged to spend when literally everywhere else is already doing that? After reading and/or posting a few hundred posts here, it becomes a form of mental masturbation/maintenance (or simply entertainment) to assure yourself you’re doing the right things and/or reinforce certain themes more than anything else. It’s a great resource for information overall if you use it correctly. It’s important to realize that there’s no one correct way to live though and there are plenty of paths to success in life which is all anyone is really looking for.
But yeah, once you’ve dialed in the big things like transportation/housing/food/hobbies, making more money does become more beneficial and you should probably focus on that. There’s lots of threads about that here though so I don’t think it’s an under-represented component at all. And then there are of course blog posts about jobs without a degree over $50k. I’m sure there’s more, I haven’t read everything.
Post by: damyst on November 29, 2019, 08:21:26 AM
Now whether people on the forum particularly care about Pete's agenda, that's a different matter. Some of them do. Most of them just want to FIRE. For folks whose spending is already under control, increasing their income is usually the more realistic and palatable way to FIRE.
Post by: LennStar on November 29, 2019, 09:07:42 AM
MMM has no interest in helping people become wealthy. His primary agenda is to save the planet from the excesses of consumerism. Increasing people's income is manifestly unhelpful to that agenda.
Now whether people on the forum particularly care about Pete's agenda, that's a different matter. Some of them do. Most of them just want to FIRE. For folks whose spending is already under control, increasing their income is usually the more realistic and palatable way to FIRE.
Yeah, and don't forget that high income generally comes with high stress too. I don't earn that much (German median), but I certainly would not want to change places with a doctor who earns a lot absolutely but still has only 50% more hourly wage because she is doing 60+ hours (and possibly with night and double shifts urg).
And I certainly would not want to do the similar paid job of elderly car with really hard, often disgusting work and definitely with night shifts, and I egoistically hope they don't too.
And at that point I also want to say that not everybody can be a high earner.
Anyone can become president. But no everyone. That is error often made.
Post by: DadJokes on November 29, 2019, 09:40:44 AM
Post by: Metalcat on November 29, 2019, 10:03:38 AM
JFC can you people not just have fun in a thread? Everything has to be turned into a debate around here.
Um...no
My first post in this thread was almost
"and now starts the 20 second countdown before this thread turns into a lengthy debate about what luxuries are acceptable"
Post by: mm1970 on November 29, 2019, 10:26:07 AM
I am not a speedy runner. The best I've come in is 4th in my age group, in a very lightly attended 5k. I could have gotten a free frisbee if I'd come in third.Ah, I’ve got one - paying to run a 5k is for millionaires. Don’t people know running is free?
Not if you’re fast enough to win. I paid USD 30 to participate in a Turkey Trot this morning, won in the Grandmaster category and got lots of freebies to make up for the fee.
Mustachians are speedy runners.
Running is free, yes (except for the gear), but running alone is also pretty boring for many. Having a "goal", a "race", a "group" can be highly motivating.
Luckily for me, we are millionaires, so apparently, I can do whatever the fuck I want!
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on November 29, 2019, 02:09:17 PM
I am not a speedy runner. The best I've come in is 4th in my age group, in a very lightly attended 5k. I could have gotten a free frisbee if I'd come in third.Ah, I’ve got one - paying to run a 5k is for millionaires. Don’t people know running is free?
Not if you’re fast enough to win. I paid USD 30 to participate in a Turkey Trot this morning, won in the Grandmaster category and got lots of freebies to make up for the fee.
Mustachians are speedy runners.
Running is free, yes (except for the gear), but running alone is also pretty boring for many. Having a "goal", a "race", a "group" can be highly motivating.
Luckily for me, we are millionaires, so apparently, I can do whatever the fuck I want!
I've received knick knack trophies in races, but nothing of value. I also pay for half marathons which are expensive (and definitely am not going to place in those), but it's something I enjoy and spend a lot of time training for. Cheaper than a gym membership... But yeah, it's not cheap, especially when I sign up the family or do a pricey half marathon or 10k with my DW.
Post by: marty998 on November 29, 2019, 06:36:32 PM
JFC can you people not just have fun in a thread? Everything has to be turned into a debate around here.
Um...no
My first post in this thread was almost
"and now starts the 20 second countdown before this thread turns into a lengthy debate about what luxuries are acceptable"
I'm really surprised you called out breakfast cereal Malkynn.... surely a good bowl of cereal / oats is orders of magnitude cheaper than ordering eggs on toast or smashed avo at the local coffee shop?
What else would you have people eat in the morning?
Post by: Metalcat on November 29, 2019, 07:03:53 PM
JFC can you people not just have fun in a thread? Everything has to be turned into a debate around here.
Um...no
My first post in this thread was almost
"and now starts the 20 second countdown before this thread turns into a lengthy debate about what luxuries are acceptable"
I'm really surprised you called out breakfast cereal Malkynn.... surely a good bowl of cereal / oats is orders of magnitude cheaper than ordering eggs on toast or smashed avo at the local coffee shop?
What else would you have people eat in the morning?
Apples to oranges, anything from a local coffee shop will be more expensive than breakfast cereal. Meanwhile, making eggs at home is dirt cheap. Oats are also not the same as box cereal. I can buy a couple of kilos of oats for the same cost as a small box of cereal.
A staff member of mine recently told me that her two teenage sons devour an entire $7 box of cereal each morning, plus milk. 2 eggs costs me less than 60c.
Post by: RWD on November 29, 2019, 07:07:22 PM
A staff member of mine recently told me that her two teenage sons devour an entire $7 box of cereal each morning, plus milk. 2 eggs costs me less than 60c.
Wow, that's expensive cereal! We pay $2-5/box for brand name cereal depending on size and sales.
Post by: Metalcat on November 29, 2019, 07:10:26 PM
A staff member of mine recently told me that her two teenage sons devour an entire $7 box of cereal each morning, plus milk. 2 eggs costs me less than 60c.
Wow, that's expensive cereal! We pay $2-5/box for brand name cereal depending on size and sales.
I don't buy cereal, haven't for decades, so I have no idea, but I'm also in Canada where grocery costs are a bit different.
Also, her althlete teens like Vector, which is apparently actually closer to $10/ 850g box.
Post by: RWD on November 29, 2019, 08:13:55 PM
A staff member of mine recently told me that her two teenage sons devour an entire $7 box of cereal each morning, plus milk. 2 eggs costs me less than 60c.
Wow, that's expensive cereal! We pay $2-5/box for brand name cereal depending on size and sales.
I don't buy cereal, haven't for decades, so I have no idea, but I'm also in Canada where grocery costs are a bit different.
Also, her althlete teens like Vector, which is apparently actually closer to $10/ 850g box.
Wow, 850g is a big box. The biggest box I get is 510g (https://www.kroger.com/p/cheerios-multi-grain-cereal/0001600048771) and that lasts me like a week or maybe a few days more.
Post by: Metalcat on November 30, 2019, 04:26:21 AM
A staff member of mine recently told me that her two teenage sons devour an entire $7 box of cereal each morning, plus milk. 2 eggs costs me less than 60c.
Wow, that's expensive cereal! We pay $2-5/box for brand name cereal depending on size and sales.
I don't buy cereal, haven't for decades, so I have no idea, but I'm also in Canada where grocery costs are a bit different.
Also, her althlete teens like Vector, which is apparently actually closer to $10/ 850g box.
Wow, 850g is a big box. The biggest box I get is 510g (https://www.kroger.com/p/cheerios-multi-grain-cereal/0001600048771) and that lasts me like a week or maybe a few days more.
I don't know what normal cereal boxes are like, I haven't bought it in a few decades. I do know it's expensive here.
Post by: Freedomin5 on November 30, 2019, 05:52:12 AM
Anyway, you know what is for millionaires? Interior decorators.
Post by: Metalcat on November 30, 2019, 07:20:49 AM
Brown sugar and butter in your oatmeal is for millionaires.
Is butter in oatmeal a thing?
Post by: Dancin'Dog on November 30, 2019, 07:37:12 AM
Towing is not for millionaires - depending on what you are towing. Trailer: $350-$500 5x8 ft utility trailer, ought to last a lifetime if kept out of the weather, can be towed by literally any car.
Eliminates the need for a pickup truck along with truck repairs, truck maintenance, higher fuel bills, truck insurance, etc. Person does not need a more expensive four door truck to act as family vehicle, can stick with four seater sedan/hatchback/wagon/CUV and still bring home all sorts of things safely. Eliminate delivery charges a few times, carry off your own garbage for a year - and that trailer is paid for.
Agreed.
Trailers are a great money saver. You could easily even make some money on the side, either renting it out or hauling stuff as a side gig. Finding a place to store a trailer when it's not being used can be an issue, depending when you live.
Post by: OtherJen on November 30, 2019, 07:39:06 AM
Brown sugar and butter in your oatmeal is for millionaires.
Is butter in oatmeal a thing?
I don’t like sweet oatmeal so I put butter and sharp cheddar in mine. If brown sugar is for millionaires, cheese is probably for billionaires so I should stop.
Post by: Cranky on November 30, 2019, 10:45:14 AM
Post by: Freedomin5 on November 30, 2019, 10:52:03 AM
Brown sugar and butter in your oatmeal is for millionaires.
Is butter in oatmeal a thing?
I don’t like sweet oatmeal so I put butter and sharp cheddar in mine. If brown sugar is for millionaires, cheese is probably for billionaires so I should stop.
Cheese and butter in China is for millionaires. Cheese goes for USD $8 for a 200g block of just plain cheddar or mozzarella. Butter is $8 for 200g. And if cheese is for millionaires, then not only is pizza delivery only for millionaires, pizza itself is for millionaires - including homemade pizza.
Post by: DesertRatNomad on November 30, 2019, 11:49:17 AM
That said, I have no loans and less money in all of them together than most ‘normal’ people have in 1 car. The truck has been the biggest travel money saver since it gets about 30 mpg and I live in it on the road. I’m working on having a total of 365 nights in it. One of the motorcycles is a flip project that will hopefully make almost 1k and the other will be similar when I decide to finally sell it.
Post by: Arbitrage on November 30, 2019, 09:18:50 PM
Aldi’s cereal is cheap.
Yep - I eat some Aldi cereal as part of my post-bike commute meal (mixture of oats, cereal, milk + banana). The Aldi cereal is about $1.30 per box and lasts me a month or so. Tastes the same as name brand for 1/3 the price. The kids will eat Aldi variants as well without complaint, on the few occasions they eat cereal.
Post by: sabanist on December 02, 2019, 12:33:50 PM
I understand the point of the thread but some of these are opportunity costs.
My wife finally convinced me of this.
Perfect example. I used to do our lawn.
On my off day, I'd spent around ~3 hrs of my day cutting edging cleaning up my lawn and I always put it off until the lawn are out of control.
My wife would always say you make too much money, pay someone to do it.
If I just spent 1 extra hour working, I can make more than enough to pay for 1 lawn cut($30 for a lawn cut).
So spent 1 extra hour working which takes very little effort or 3 hours on my free time to do lawn which I don't enjoy very much.
Yeah, I'm choosing to pay for lawn care now.
I look at lawn care that i do myself as a productive use of my time where otherwise i probably wouldn't be doing much at all. Like on a sunday morning. I can either be watching tv or reading or whatnot. But instead I'm cutting the grass.
Plus I like doing my own yard. Love the smell of fresh cut grass
Post by: Hirondelle on December 03, 2019, 01:28:12 PM
I understand the point of the thread but some of these are opportunity costs.
My wife finally convinced me of this.
Perfect example. I used to do our lawn.
On my off day, I'd spent around ~3 hrs of my day cutting edging cleaning up my lawn and I always put it off until the lawn are out of control.
My wife would always say you make too much money, pay someone to do it.
If I just spent 1 extra hour working, I can make more than enough to pay for 1 lawn cut($30 for a lawn cut).
So spent 1 extra hour working which takes very little effort or 3 hours on my free time to do lawn which I don't enjoy very much.
Yeah, I'm choosing to pay for lawn care now.
I look at lawn care that i do myself as a productive use of my time where otherwise i probably wouldn't be doing much at all. Like on a sunday morning. I can either be watching tv or reading or whatnot. But instead I'm cutting the grass.
Plus I like doing my own yard. Love the smell of fresh cut grass
One could also argue that having a lawn that takes 3h to cut is for millionaires ;)
Post by: LennStar on December 03, 2019, 01:37:06 PM
I understand the point of the thread but some of these are opportunity costs.
My wife finally convinced me of this.
Perfect example. I used to do our lawn.
On my off day, I'd spent around ~3 hrs of my day cutting edging cleaning up my lawn and I always put it off until the lawn are out of control.
My wife would always say you make too much money, pay someone to do it.
If I just spent 1 extra hour working, I can make more than enough to pay for 1 lawn cut($30 for a lawn cut).
So spent 1 extra hour working which takes very little effort or 3 hours on my free time to do lawn which I don't enjoy very much.
Yeah, I'm choosing to pay for lawn care now.
I look at lawn care that i do myself as a productive use of my time where otherwise i probably wouldn't be doing much at all. Like on a sunday morning. I can either be watching tv or reading or whatnot. But instead I'm cutting the grass.
Plus I like doing my own yard. Love the smell of fresh cut grass
One could also argue that having a lawn that takes 3h to cut is for millionaires ;)
Depends how you do it.
https://youtu.be/asBo3JUWwDU?t=1920
Post by: Cranky on December 03, 2019, 03:59:59 PM
I understand the point of the thread but some of these are opportunity costs.
My wife finally convinced me of this.
Perfect example. I used to do our lawn.
On my off day, I'd spent around ~3 hrs of my day cutting edging cleaning up my lawn and I always put it off until the lawn are out of control.
My wife would always say you make too much money, pay someone to do it.
If I just spent 1 extra hour working, I can make more than enough to pay for 1 lawn cut($30 for a lawn cut).
So spent 1 extra hour working which takes very little effort or 3 hours on my free time to do lawn which I don't enjoy very much.
Yeah, I'm choosing to pay for lawn care now.
I look at lawn care that i do myself as a productive use of my time where otherwise i probably wouldn't be doing much at all. Like on a sunday morning. I can either be watching tv or reading or whatnot. But instead I'm cutting the grass.
Plus I like doing my own yard. Love the smell of fresh cut grass
One could also argue that having a lawn that takes 3h to cut is for millionaires ;)
Depends how you do it.
https://youtu.be/asBo3JUWwDU?t=1920
Scissors?
Post by: jeroly on December 03, 2019, 04:31:39 PM
So, I’ll take the liberty to reinterpret this as:
What types of activities should only be considered by very high wealth individuals (VHNWI), but which are paid for by non-VHNWIs way too often?
(In ascending order of ridiculousness)
Going out for lunch daily
Regular takeout
New cars every year or two
Maintaining two or more frequently replaced cars
Full-freight tuition at private universities
Second homes
Private primary schools
Post by: Gremlin on December 03, 2019, 06:11:40 PM
Agreed...Ah, I’ve got one - paying to run a 5k is for millionaires. Don’t people know running is free?
Not if you’re fast enough to win. I paid USD 30 to participate in a Turkey Trot this morning, won in the Grandmaster category and got lots of freebies to make up for the fee.
Mustachians are speedy runners.
I have a teenage son who is a good enough runner to win Men's events. His side-gig thru the winter months is winning prizemoney across the local fun run circuit. I never realised how well these can pay if you're good enough to be on the podium!
Post by: thurston howell iv on December 05, 2019, 10:53:33 AM
Stupid expensive cel phones and phone plans are for millionaires.
Spoke with a co-worker who make less than me. Purchased the newest iphone (something like $1200 IIRC) WTF?!?! It's a phone.. Then the $100+ a month for just one phone. Ugh. No wonder people are broke.
Eating out every day- also for millionaires. In my office, everyone goes to get coffee in the morning, possibly a light breakfast AND then either walk to buy lunch or order through door dash. Everyday dropping like $15-$20 for just lunch (and that's on the cheap end).
Just some of my pet peeves. Not because I really give a shit what people do with their money, but when they complain about having to work or being broke and then do stupid stuff, well then I'm annoyed. :)
Post by: ThriftyD on December 05, 2019, 03:02:17 PM
Post by: DadJokes on December 05, 2019, 03:13:32 PM
I'll challenge the OP in saying that going downtown to sporting events is for millionaires. I'm guilty of taking in the occasional professional sports event in my downtown too so I'm guilty as charged myself here! Also, buying beer and concessions at sporting events is for millionaires. Again, I'm too often guilty as charged here.
It's not for millionaires if you sell 75% of the tickets and end up breaking even, essentially seeing 25% of the games for free. We also don't buy anything at concessions. The arena lets you bring in an empty water bottle, which we fill up at water fountains.
Sure, we could sell all tickets and run a profit, but this is an item that brings us great joy and value, so I'm willing to sacrifice that lost income.
Post by: ThriftyD on December 05, 2019, 03:33:16 PM
It's not for millionaires if you sell 75% of the tickets and end up breaking even, essentially seeing 25% of the games for free. We also don't buy anything at concessions. The arena lets you bring in an empty water bottle, which we fill up at water fountains.
Sure, we could sell all tickets and run a profit, but this is an item that brings us great joy and value, so I'm willing to sacrifice that lost income.
Ah touche! Very nice. I know some people who make decent money on reselling tickets on some of those secondary market sites like StubHub. And absolutely. I get joy out of catching a game with my wife or some friends and just being downtown once in awhile so it's well worth it for us too.
Post by: Daisyedwards800 on December 06, 2019, 11:07:09 AM
In light of MMM's recent post (https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2019/11/18/pizza-delivery-is-for-millionaires/), I thought it would be fun to share items where a little extra work is worth the savings.
To start things off:
Paying for parking is for millionaires. We go to sporting events downtown a dozen or so times per year, and all of the parking near the arena costs from $15-$30, depending on the day of the week. However, we park about 3/4 of a mile from the arena in a free lot and walk (regardless of weather). Not only is it free parking, but we get a little exercise and a great view of the city as we cross a pedestrian bridge over the river.
This is a bit of a male privilege depending on the area you live in. Just saying!
Post by: Proud Foot on December 06, 2019, 11:15:18 AM
Agreed...Ah, I’ve got one - paying to run a 5k is for millionaires. Don’t people know running is free?
Not if you’re fast enough to win. I paid USD 30 to participate in a Turkey Trot this morning, won in the Grandmaster category and got lots of freebies to make up for the fee.
Mustachians are speedy runners.
I have a teenage son who is a good enough runner to win Men's events. His side-gig thru the winter months is winning prizemoney across the local fun run circuit. I never realised how well these can pay if you're good enough to be on the podium!
Good for him to be good enough to win prize money. However this could cause some issues and make him lose out on significantly more money if he is good enough and has the desire to run in college.
Post by: robartsd on December 06, 2019, 12:07:47 PM
Or just being part of a group doing it together. I imagine that it doesn't take all that many in a group for the gender of the group members to be a statistically insignificant safety factor. If it is easier for a male to convince a group of buddies to walk 3/4 of a mile to save on parking than for a woman to do the same thing is that still male privilege?In light of MMM's recent post (https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2019/11/18/pizza-delivery-is-for-millionaires/), I thought it would be fun to share items where a little extra work is worth the savings.
To start things off:
Paying for parking is for millionaires. We go to sporting events downtown a dozen or so times per year, and all of the parking near the arena costs from $15-$30, depending on the day of the week. However, we park about 3/4 of a mile from the arena in a free lot and walk (regardless of weather). Not only is it free parking, but we get a little exercise and a great view of the city as we cross a pedestrian bridge over the river.
This is a bit of a male privilege depending on the area you live in. Just saying!
Post by: ixtap on December 06, 2019, 03:42:46 PM
Anything that involves the words "horses," "boat," and/or "towing."
When we lived aboard our boat, one of our slip neighbors would come from his house every few months and complain about how "you have to be a millionaire to own a boat in this town!" And I heartily agreed with him that yes, if you want to live on land and keep a 35'+ boat in a slip, you really probably should be a millionaire or have a darn good income. He didn't like me agreeing with him.
I have mixed feelings about things like dance and yoga classes. They are expensive, but I know that dancing was a mental health savior when I was going through a rough patch. Learning from videos would not have helped me become a part of the community. In some areas, you can find regular, free classes, but certainly not everywhere.
Post by: ysette9 on December 06, 2019, 03:58:19 PM
Post by: partgypsy on December 06, 2019, 04:35:45 PM
1) Most things for pets. You know the excess toys, fancy leashes, even dog sweaters, canned food for healthy pets who don't need canned food. Your pet DOESN'T CARE!
2) People who order multiple drinks at a bar where it is SO expensive. Or going out/take out or drive through multiple times a week. It should be a treat, not a normal routine.
3) Bottled water. It's personal pet peeve of mine. There's nothing wrong with the tap water! Bring your own bottle with you!
4) Car washes, unless you're Walter White. (Though I have agreed to take my youngest to one of those drive-in car washes, someday).
5) Spending a lot on a car, double if you have to lease or get a loan for it. I just don't get the huge opportunity cost. People spending 40K on a truck or SUV literally blows my mind. I mean, that's a downpayment on a house. Or put that money in the stock market, walk away, and in 20 years you'll have close to150K.
I guess my pet peeve is that alot of Americans are aspirational. They WANT to do or buy the things that millionaires do, even if they can't afford it so saying this is for millionaires sounds both privileged and snobby and may backfire. It might be better for him to frame it as, hey I'm a millionaire, and even with all my money I think it's silly to spend money on X, or Smart people, smart people with money game the system by NOT doing what the majority does.
Post by: OtherJen on December 06, 2019, 06:00:12 PM
2) People who order multiple drinks at a bar where it is SO expensive. Or going out/take out or drive through multiple times a week. It should be a treat, not a normal routine.
YES. And I say this as someone who does this with her husband every once in a while, as a treat on a date night. It's fun to go to one of the fancy hipster cocktail bars and watch the fancy hipster bartenders do their thing with various bar tools, blowtorches, etc. In fact, we went to such a place for my birthday and had a couple rounds (after eating dinner at home). But that is definitely a treat.
Post by: sui generis on December 06, 2019, 06:09:47 PM
1) Most things for pets. You know the excess toys, fancy leashes, even dog sweaters, canned food for healthy pets who don't need canned food. Your pet DOESN'T CARE!
Small quibble here, adding canned food to any cat's diet specifically is pretty standard recommendation by a lot of vets and by the rescue cat org I work for. Cats often don't drink enough water in a domestic environment, they would normally get a decent amount of moisture from their wild-caught food (the blood and other bodily fluids they are ingesting when they kill animals). So they often have kidney problems later in life if they don't get some more moist food. But yeah, dunno, you could maybe soak their kibble if you wanted to do it the MMM way and keep them healthy at the same time?
Post by: partgypsy on December 07, 2019, 12:23:50 PM
1) Most things for pets. You know the excess toys, fancy leashes, even dog sweaters, canned food for healthy pets who don't need canned food. Your pet DOESN'T CARE!
Small quibble here, adding canned food to any cat's diet specifically is pretty standard recommendation by a lot of vets and by the rescue cat org I work for. Cats often don't drink enough water in a domestic environment, they would normally get a decent amount of moisture from their wild-caught food (the blood and other bodily fluids they are ingesting when they kill animals). So they often have kidney problems later in life if they don't get some more moist food. But yeah, dunno, you could maybe soak their kibble if you wanted to do it the MMM way and keep them healthy at the same time?
I never heard that, that's interesting. I have heard cats do not like drinking near their source of food. So while we always provided a bowl of water, I had one cat who only wanted to drink out of faucets, so we had the bathtub on a very slow drip. My last cat was a rescue and much of her life mostly outdoors (very much her choice). She had a bowl but preferred drinking out of puddles. The second cat did end up losing pretty much all her teeth by 18 (due to a preexisting condition), and at that point was switched to canned food. Maybe there is some credence, because she did die from kidney disease, but then again she was 20.
Post by: imadandylion on December 08, 2019, 10:46:39 AM
1) Most things for pets. You know the excess toys, fancy leashes, even dog sweaters, canned food for healthy pets who don't need canned food. Your pet DOESN'T CARE!
Small quibble here, adding canned food to any cat's diet specifically is pretty standard recommendation by a lot of vets and by the rescue cat org I work for. Cats often don't drink enough water in a domestic environment, they would normally get a decent amount of moisture from their wild-caught food (the blood and other bodily fluids they are ingesting when they kill animals). So they often have kidney problems later in life if they don't get some more moist food. But yeah, dunno, you could maybe soak their kibble if you wanted to do it the MMM way and keep them healthy at the same time?
Agree. Wet food in a cat's diet (or even a dog's) is pretty commonly acceptable as kind of a "best management practice" in terms of health. If you really want to distill it into their most basic needs, let's just say cats didn't evolve or basically not suited to solely existing on dry kibble. I believe it's important to feed animals high quality foods free of ingredients that may cause or exacerbate inflammatory conditions or unsavory *preventable* conditions such as diabetes, obesity, etc. There's a wealth of information and resources about the topic widely available. Or you can ask your vet. A healthy diet is important for cats, or any animal, just as much as it is for human. So a healthy diet for cats will obviously want to preclude junk food like Meow Mix, for example. That being said, I do prefer to feed dry food in the morning and let them 'graze' all day (since my cats are self-regulating types) and feed them wet food every evening - my cats' health always get a thumbs up from the vet. Kibble was created primarily out of convenience, not because that's just what pets should eat.
Owning pets in general is not economical, though.
Post by: Linea_Norway on December 09, 2019, 12:51:23 AM
<...>
Owning pets in general is not economical, though.
Depends on the pets. We used to have an aquarium some years ago. The aquarium was bought second hand for cheap. We found small fish in the local pond. And the fish eat one small box of fish food every year.
Okay, the aquarium requires light and a pump with bubbles, so it costs some electricity.
Post by: DadJokes on December 09, 2019, 07:27:32 AM
It's not for millionaires if you sell 75% of the tickets and end up breaking even, essentially seeing 25% of the games for free. We also don't buy anything at concessions. The arena lets you bring in an empty water bottle, which we fill up at water fountains.
Sure, we could sell all tickets and run a profit, but this is an item that brings us great joy and value, so I'm willing to sacrifice that lost income.
Ah touche! Very nice. I know some people who make decent money on reselling tickets on some of those secondary market sites like StubHub. And absolutely. I get joy out of catching a game with my wife or some friends and just being downtown once in awhile so it's well worth it for us too.
We're going to the NHL Winter Classic (an outdoor NHL game on New Year's Day). We bought tickets with our STH early access for about $160/each. I looked last weekend and saw that we could sell them for ~$350/each right now. I'm kicking myself for not buying a dozen or so to resell. If we're considering opportunity cost, we're basically paying $380 to watch the game in person since we aren't going to sell our tickets.
That's for millionaires.
Post by: robartsd on December 09, 2019, 12:09:03 PM
4) Car washes, unless you're Walter White. (Though I have agreed to take my youngest to one of those drive-in car washes, someday).I agree that they don't make sense from a personal finance perspective, but most car washes in my area are more environmentally friendly than washing the car yourself because they are more water efficient.
Post by: mm1970 on December 09, 2019, 12:13:40 PM
I'm not going to say these are for millionaires. But there are definitely things I think to myself these are silly to spend money on, regardless of net worth.When we adopted our dog, they recommended a couple of spoonfuls of wet food on top of the dry food. Our dog is 11 lb, a standard can lasts more than a week.
1) Most things for pets. You know the excess toys, fancy leashes, even dog sweaters, canned food for healthy pets who don't need canned food. Your pet DOESN'T CARE!
2) People who order multiple drinks at a bar where it is SO expensive. Or going out/take out or drive through multiple times a week. It should be a treat, not a normal routine.
3) Bottled water. It's personal pet peeve of mine. There's nothing wrong with the tap water! Bring your own bottle with you!
4) Car washes, unless you're Walter White. (Though I have agreed to take my youngest to one of those drive-in car washes, someday).
5) Spending a lot on a car, double if you have to lease or get a loan for it. I just don't get the huge opportunity cost. People spending 40K on a truck or SUV literally blows my mind. I mean, that's a downpayment on a house. Or put that money in the stock market, walk away, and in 20 years you'll have close to150K.
I guess my pet peeve is that alot of Americans are aspirational. They WANT to do or buy the things that millionaires do, even if they can't afford it so saying this is for millionaires sounds both privileged and snobby and may backfire. It might be better for him to frame it as, hey I'm a millionaire, and even with all my money I think it's silly to spend money on X, or Smart people, smart people with money game the system by NOT doing what the majority does.
Car washes - depends on where you live. I live in Coastal So Cal, and it is highly recommended to use a car wash where they recycle the water. If you wash at your house, that soapy stuff ends up in the ocean, and most people don't bother to consider the environmental impact of the cleaner they choose. (We get around this by almost never washing our cars...like 2x a year).
Post by: Bloop Bloop on December 09, 2019, 12:52:45 PM
Post by: J.R. Ewing on December 09, 2019, 12:58:41 PM
4) Car washes, unless you're Walter White. (Though I have agreed to take my youngest to one of those drive-in car washes, someday).I agree that they don't make sense from a personal finance perspective, but most car washes in my area are more environmentally friendly than washing the car yourself because they are more water efficient.
And then there's the soapy run off to consider too. Where I used to live, the gutters would drain into little creeks that went straight into a lake.
Post by: Arbitrage on December 09, 2019, 02:40:38 PM
I tow my bike trailer behind my fancy ebike every day.
Per the original comment on towing, boats, and horses -
I actually tow my boat* behind my fancy e-bike from time to time as well! No horses, though.
*inflatable kayak
Post by: Dancin'Dog on December 09, 2019, 04:37:20 PM
ATVs are for millionaires.
(That and fancy tractors!)
Getting firewood at a neighbors but there's a hill and just a little moisture; my $250 used garden tractor (and my neighbors ~$1000 new garden tractor) were struggling to get enough rear-wheel-drive traction to pull our little trailers full (or kinda full) of firewood. I (half-jokingly) asked my wife if I could get a four-wheeler for the job. She said no way, for one purpose?! What are they, $1000? I couldn't break it to her, that's the price for a beat up used one on CL. New ones are $4k!
And sheesh, tractors. Given my bumpy backyard, I wouldn't want the cheapest possible (new) tractor if my $250 one died. The beefy ones start at $2k and for the real farm-ready ones, they are easily $15k-$20k before adding a bucket. Oof. If I was a millionaire...
Tell her that they are great for clearing snow too. And they are a lot of fun. "Fun" is a purpose too, right?
Post by: Arbitrage on December 09, 2019, 09:31:21 PM
ATVs are for millionaires.
(That and fancy tractors!)
Getting firewood at a neighbors but there's a hill and just a little moisture; my $250 used garden tractor (and my neighbors ~$1000 new garden tractor) were struggling to get enough rear-wheel-drive traction to pull our little trailers full (or kinda full) of firewood. I (half-jokingly) asked my wife if I could get a four-wheeler for the job. She said no way, for one purpose?! What are they, $1000? I couldn't break it to her, that's the price for a beat up used one on CL. New ones are $4k!
And sheesh, tractors. Given my bumpy backyard, I wouldn't want the cheapest possible (new) tractor if my $250 one died. The beefy ones start at $2k and for the real farm-ready ones, they are easily $15k-$20k before adding a bucket. Oof. If I was a millionaire...
Tell her that they are great for clearing snow too. And they are a lot of fun. "Fun" is a purpose too, right?
The same weekend that my parents moved from our childhood home in the suburbs to what they planned to have as their retirement home (far outskirts of town, 10 acres of land), my father stopped by the local John Deere and bought an $18k tractor without my mom's consent - and this was 20 years ago...so $30k or so now? They were not millionaires.
Still, he definitely got his use out of that thing. He was constantly inventing things to do with it, and was on it nearly every day.
Post by: iris lily on December 11, 2019, 09:11:11 AM
Canned beans are for rich people. We buy dry beans and cook them ourselves. And they are so much better tasting than canned.We grow our own dry-type beans. So there!
Post by: Legsofsteel on December 16, 2019, 03:04:45 PM
I think there is a danger in this line of thinking coming off a bit snobby now that MMM makes hundreds of thousands a year and is worth what, 5-10 Million?
You can't do anything unless you make more than him now, how dare you working serfs make any decision out of convenience? I would hardly say ordering pizza is a luxury, order some pizza for $20 you have a supper and a couple lunches the next day for 2 people - there are worse financial sins.
I understand the point he is making and once you add in compound interest the cost of everything is steep, but you have to draw the line somewhere and to me that line is above the level of ordering the cheapest takeout food there is. Sometimes the juice just isnt worth the squeeze and in this case MMM has squeezed a very small glass of sour lemonade.
I agree. I get a sense of paternalism from the statement "X is for millionaires" which makes me feel uneasy. I'm not a millionaire, but my bills get paid on time. I'm not in debt. It is perfectly reasonable for me to choose pizza delivery over a slightly earlier retirement. "X is for millionaires" makes it sound like I don't have a right to purchase something you deem too luxurious for a sub-millionaire peon like me.
MMM has literally always been paternalistic and patronizing, it's a HUGE part of his personal brand.
Underneath that, the message is to always question these little indulgent expenses and really examine if they actually add anything into your life or if they're just habits society deems acceptable, like ordering pizza.
Pete is brilliant at agitating people into reading his content, but underneath the bluster is always the same solid content, which is that we should never stop questioning what we choose to spend on and why.
For the sake of keeping this meant-to-be-fun thread on track, I'll contribute my own content despite the fact that I don't actually judge anyone for what they choose to spend on.
Salon haircolour is for millionaires, sure colourists are experts and can do amazing things, but it's just hair colour, and doing it yourself costs at most $10/mo, while professional colour can be several hundred.
Manicures are for millionaires. Paint your own damn nails! That said, I don't judge anyone for the occasional pedicure, that's a whole other thing with the foot bath and massage chair, etc. Dammit, I want a pedicure now.
Little packets of spices from the grocery store are for millionaires who don't care about food actually tasting good. $4 for a bag of vaguely oregano flavoured sawdust? No thanks.
Designer back packs are for millionaires. I live in a building with a lot of university students and they all carry the same brand of canvas backpack. I saw one in a store and just about did a spit-take when I saw that they retail for nearly $100! For a canvas back pack!
It reminds me of those vinyl Longchamp bags, same friggin' deal.
Smoking is for millionaires. That shit is CRAZY expensive here! A pack is up to nearly $20 now. WTF???
Vaping is probably for millionaires, but I have no idea what it costs. I'm just guessing it's expensive like cigarettes.
Paying for a gym membership when you have a gym in your building that almost no one uses is for millionaires. Our gym is an ugly, windowless basement gym, but we all pay for it with condo fees, so the people who have memberships across the street at the fancy gym are paying twice.
Breakfast cereal is for millionaires. I haven't bought it in a few decades, but a coworker just told me how much it costs to keep her two teenagers fed for breakfast. I...I'm still in shock. It's almost as expensive as cigarettes.
Beef is for millionaires. Might even be more expensive than cigarettes.
Now for a few that I'm totally guilty of
Purebred pets are for millionaires. I have my reasons, mostly to do with allergies, but I've spent several thousand on cats. Ridiculous.
Elta MD sunscreen is for millionares. It's nearly $50 for a tiny bottle. Ouch.
Ice Breaker merino wool clothing is for millionaires. In "Thrift Shop" Macklemore makes fun of a t-shirt costing $50. An Ice Breaker under shirt costs over $100, and I just realized is made in China. Oof...most of my wardrobe is Ice Breaker.
Dance lessons are for millionaires.
So expensive :( but also so much fun :)
Robots are for millionaires.
Robot vacuum, robot cat litter box, Nest thermostat, etc. Between that and all of the motion sensor lights in my very dated high-rise apartment, it's kind of like living in the Jetsons, like a 70s version of futuristic.
Not the cereal I buy (Weetabix). I always buy it on sale for a start. Then I eat it at work where the milk is free. The cost of my cereal per day is less than 40 cents!
Post by: Firehazard on December 18, 2019, 04:56:18 PM
Post by: HBFIRE on December 18, 2019, 05:17:27 PM
Post by: ysette9 on December 18, 2019, 06:54:36 PM
Underwear obv. Character building to go without.You may find divergent opinions there between male and female populations
Post by: Case on December 19, 2019, 05:38:31 AM
Putzing around on FIRE forums is for millionaires.
I guess there is lost opportunity costs there. My time here is time not searched on Amazon Prime for worthless crap.
It’s a worthwhile point. I wonder how many people on these forums, back when they were/are saving up their stache, if asked what specifically do you hand to do in retirement, would say “spend a few hours a day on the forums”.
Post by: partdopy on December 19, 2019, 10:20:05 AM
Keeping up to date with fashion is for millionaires. You can wear the same clothes until they get holes in them.
Surprisingly, you can also keep wearing clothes after they get holes in them.
Sure, and I'm all for saving a dollar, but I do draw the line in some places. Having clothes/whatever else that is in what most people would consider unusable condition is not being frugal, that is being cheap. A few times a year I take a stroll to my local Ross or Goodwill and get some new clothes, as while what others think of me isn't that important, I believe it is important (and is a reflection of yourself) to appear presentable in public. Also, it sets a good example for those around you.
Post by: Cranky on December 19, 2019, 10:53:21 AM
Keeping up to date with fashion is for millionaires. You can wear the same clothes until they get holes in them.
Surprisingly, you can also keep wearing clothes after they get holes in them.
Sure, and I'm all for saving a dollar, but I do draw the line in some places. Having clothes/whatever else that is in what most people would consider unusable condition is not being frugal, that is being cheap. A few times a year I take a stroll to my local Ross or Goodwill and get some new clothes, as while what others think of me isn't that important, I believe it is important (and is a reflection of yourself) to appear presentable in public. Also, it sets a good example for those around you.
What example, exactly, does buying cheap disposable clothing set for other people?
Post by: partdopy on December 19, 2019, 03:21:29 PM
Keeping up to date with fashion is for millionaires. You can wear the same clothes until they get holes in them.
Surprisingly, you can also keep wearing clothes after they get holes in them.
Sure, and I'm all for saving a dollar, but I do draw the line in some places. Having clothes/whatever else that is in what most people would consider unusable condition is not being frugal, that is being cheap. A few times a year I take a stroll to my local Ross or Goodwill and get some new clothes, as while what others think of me isn't that important, I believe it is important (and is a reflection of yourself) to appear presentable in public. Also, it sets a good example for those around you.
What example, exactly, does buying cheap disposable clothing set for other people?
Well, you said 'Surprisingly, you can also keep wearing clothes after they get holes in them.' Wearing clothes with holes tells the world you don't care about your appearance at all and don't really care if you look like a slob.
Nobody said anything about cheap and disposable clothes. I'm wearing a pair of Levi's I got from Ross for $12 now, they look good and will continue to for years. I'll stop wearing them when they get holes
Post by: Metalcat on December 19, 2019, 03:29:43 PM
Keeping up to date with fashion is for millionaires. You can wear the same clothes until they get holes in them.
Surprisingly, you can also keep wearing clothes after they get holes in them.
Sure, and I'm all for saving a dollar, but I do draw the line in some places. Having clothes/whatever else that is in what most people would consider unusable condition is not being frugal, that is being cheap. A few times a year I take a stroll to my local Ross or Goodwill and get some new clothes, as while what others think of me isn't that important, I believe it is important (and is a reflection of yourself) to appear presentable in public. Also, it sets a good example for those around you.
What example, exactly, does buying cheap disposable clothing set for other people?
Well, you said 'Surprisingly, you can also keep wearing clothes after they get holes in them.' Wearing clothes with holes tells the world you don't care about your appearance at all and don't really care if you look like a slob.
Nobody said anything about cheap and disposable clothes. I'm wearing a pair of Levi's I got from Ross for $12 now, they look good and will continue to for years. I'll stop wearing them when they get holes
And...?
I've attended high end corporate meetings wearing clothes covered in paint. Sometimes the "I don't give a fuck about impressing you" message is *exactly* what you want to convey.
Post by: Boofinator on December 19, 2019, 03:46:45 PM
And...?
I've attended high end corporate meetings wearing clothes covered in paint. Sometimes the "I don't give a fuck about impressing you" message is *exactly* what you want to convey.
And presumably you have a good story to tell if asked.* If you're in a professional environment, and you wear tattered clothes on a daily basis, you just exude unprofessionalism and give the message of "I don't give a fuck" to your bosses and other influential people.
*Reminds me of a scene in the "Pursuit of Happyness" movie, wherein Will Smith's character is interviewing for a job in a wife beater and covered in paint following a night spent in jail; after trying to think of a good story a la Seuss's Mulberry Street, he decides to just tell the truth and ends up getting the job.
Post by: Metalcat on December 19, 2019, 04:02:12 PM
And...?
I've attended high end corporate meetings wearing clothes covered in paint. Sometimes the "I don't give a fuck about impressing you" message is *exactly* what you want to convey.
And presumably you have a good story to tell if asked.* If you're in a professional environment, and you wear tattered clothes on a daily basis, you just exude unprofessionalism and give the message of "I don't give a fuck" to your bosses and other influential people.
*Reminds me of a scene in the "Pursuit of Happyness" movie, wherein Will Smith's character is interviewing for a job in a wife beater and covered in paint following a night spent in jail; after trying to think of a good story a la Seuss's Mulberry Street, he decides to just tell the truth and ends up getting the job.
My story was "I'm painting".
My message was "my time is incredibly valuable, so get to the point."
I'm not advocating that people not dress appropriately for work, my point was that sometimes the message that a slovenly appearance sends *is* exactly the message one wants to communicate.
Post by: Cranky on December 19, 2019, 04:14:04 PM
Since stores actually sell “distressed” clothing with premade holes, and charge extra for that, I am pretty sure that some little hole in my t-shirt really does not matter.
Post by: LennStar on December 20, 2019, 09:06:15 AM
I actually stopped caring much about clothes in , oh, 1972 or so, when it occurred to me that it was a lot of bother for something that made no difference in my life.You are such a snob, you don't even buy your holes, you make them yourself!!!
Since stores actually sell “distressed” clothing with premade holes, and charge extra for that, I am pretty sure that some little hole in my t-shirt really does not matter.
Post by: Cranky on December 20, 2019, 10:20:18 AM
I actually stopped caring much about clothes in , oh, 1972 or so, when it occurred to me that it was a lot of bother for something that made no difference in my life.You are such a snob, you don't even buy your holes, you make them yourself!!!
Since stores actually sell “distressed” clothing with premade holes, and charge extra for that, I am pretty sure that some little hole in my t-shirt really does not matter.
It’s artisanal! And locally sourced!
Post by: Dancin'Dog on December 23, 2019, 08:28:16 AM
And...?
I've attended high end corporate meetings wearing clothes covered in paint. Sometimes the "I don't give a fuck about impressing you" message is *exactly* what you want to convey.
And presumably you have a good story to tell if asked.* If you're in a professional environment, and you wear tattered clothes on a daily basis, you just exude unprofessionalism and give the message of "I don't give a fuck" to your bosses and other influential people.
*Reminds me of a scene in the "Pursuit of Happyness" movie, wherein Will Smith's character is interviewing for a job in a wife beater and covered in paint following a night spent in jail; after trying to think of a good story a la Seuss's Mulberry Street, he decides to just tell the truth and ends up getting the job.
My story was "I'm painting".
My message was "my time is incredibly valuable, so get to the point."
I'm not advocating that people not dress appropriately for work, my point was that sometimes the message that a slovenly appearance sends *is* exactly the message one wants to communicate.
Some people wear, or do, whatever they want to prove the point that they're too important to fire, reprimand, or ignore. "I'm a quirky genius and you need me."
Post by: ixtap on December 23, 2019, 08:37:59 AM
And...?
I've attended high end corporate meetings wearing clothes covered in paint. Sometimes the "I don't give a fuck about impressing you" message is *exactly* what you want to convey.
And presumably you have a good story to tell if asked.* If you're in a professional environment, and you wear tattered clothes on a daily basis, you just exude unprofessionalism and give the message of "I don't give a fuck" to your bosses and other influential people.
*Reminds me of a scene in the "Pursuit of Happyness" movie, wherein Will Smith's character is interviewing for a job in a wife beater and covered in paint following a night spent in jail; after trying to think of a good story a la Seuss's Mulberry Street, he decides to just tell the truth and ends up getting the job.
My story was "I'm painting".
My message was "my time is incredibly valuable, so get to the point."
I'm not advocating that people not dress appropriately for work, my point was that sometimes the message that a slovenly appearance sends *is* exactly the message one wants to communicate.
Some people wear, or do, whatever they want to prove the point that they're too important to fire, reprimand, or ignore. "I'm a quirky genius and you need me."
This explains so much about how my husband is treated at work, no matter the bicycle under the stairs, the yoga and PT equipment in the privacy room, the remains of office parties past in his cubicle (I still don't fully understand how the US Constitution forms part of that), the daily salad that says "don't bother asking me out for lunch, especially since I am rolling in while you are rolling out to lunch."
Post by: trashtalk on December 23, 2019, 09:10:11 AM
And...?
I've attended high end corporate meetings wearing clothes covered in paint. Sometimes the "I don't give a fuck about impressing you" message is *exactly* what you want to convey.
And presumably you have a good story to tell if asked.* If you're in a professional environment, and you wear tattered clothes on a daily basis, you just exude unprofessionalism and give the message of "I don't give a fuck" to your bosses and other influential people.
*Reminds me of a scene in the "Pursuit of Happyness" movie, wherein Will Smith's character is interviewing for a job in a wife beater and covered in paint following a night spent in jail; after trying to think of a good story a la Seuss's Mulberry Street, he decides to just tell the truth and ends up getting the job.
My story was "I'm painting".
My message was "my time is incredibly valuable, so get to the point."
I'm not advocating that people not dress appropriately for work, my point was that sometimes the message that a slovenly appearance sends *is* exactly the message one wants to communicate.
Some people wear, or do, whatever they want to prove the point that they're too important to fire, reprimand, or ignore. "I'm a quirky genius and you need me."
I wonder how many of those who fit this description are prosperous white men in Western countries.
Post by: Metalcat on December 23, 2019, 11:00:26 AM
And...?
I've attended high end corporate meetings wearing clothes covered in paint. Sometimes the "I don't give a fuck about impressing you" message is *exactly* what you want to convey.
And presumably you have a good story to tell if asked.* If you're in a professional environment, and you wear tattered clothes on a daily basis, you just exude unprofessionalism and give the message of "I don't give a fuck" to your bosses and other influential people.
*Reminds me of a scene in the "Pursuit of Happyness" movie, wherein Will Smith's character is interviewing for a job in a wife beater and covered in paint following a night spent in jail; after trying to think of a good story a la Seuss's Mulberry Street, he decides to just tell the truth and ends up getting the job.
My story was "I'm painting".
My message was "my time is incredibly valuable, so get to the point."
I'm not advocating that people not dress appropriately for work, my point was that sometimes the message that a slovenly appearance sends *is* exactly the message one wants to communicate.
Some people wear, or do, whatever they want to prove the point that they're too important to fire, reprimand, or ignore. "I'm a quirky genius and you need me."
I wonder how many of those who fit this description are prosperous white men in Western countries.
Well, I'm a woman...
Post by: Cranky on December 23, 2019, 01:37:32 PM
Post by: moof on December 23, 2019, 02:35:57 PM
Normally if you are good at what you do the Peter Principle will get you promoted, often into management. A lot of engineers/scientists (and others) want to avoid this fate. It can be helpful to be seen as very good at your job (raises), but also problematic to promote to management. Goofy or sub-standard attire, and/or an oddball personality are good ways to achieve this kind of goal.
Post by: Davnasty on December 23, 2019, 02:39:43 PM
Keeping up to date with fashion is for millionaires. You can wear the same clothes until they get holes in them.
Surprisingly, you can also keep wearing clothes after they get holes in them.
Sure, and I'm all for saving a dollar, but I do draw the line in some places. Having clothes/whatever else that is in what most people would consider unusable condition is not being frugal, that is being cheap. A few times a year I take a stroll to my local Ross or Goodwill and get some new clothes, as while what others think of me isn't that important, I believe it is important (and is a reflection of yourself) to appear presentable in public. Also, it sets a good example for those around you.
Who cares what most people consider unusable? "Useable" depends on what I'm doing on any given day.
Attending a wedding or a funeral? No (obvious) holes
Working outside in cold weather? Wear layers and try not to overlap holes
Working outside in the summer? As long as you cover up the important things :)
Post by: sui generis on December 23, 2019, 02:42:21 PM
As the butcher was packaging up my meat, I saw the label - filet mignon. I was like, beef tenderloin is the same as filet mignon!?!? Yep. Now it makes a little more sense why it cost over $100. And maybe makes a little less sense to have bought enough for leftovers.
As a mostly-vegetarian nowadays, I just had no conception of how much meat costs (or which cuts are which!). And I guess it's ok since we are millionaires. But ouch, I still don't feel rich enough to have that thing in my fridge!
Post by: HBFIRE on December 23, 2019, 04:07:41 PM
When I saw that Ice Breaker is made in China, I had to look it up. It’s $40-$50 Cdn on Taobao, probably being sold by the factory that manufactures it.
Yep. Merino wool is worth it but there are much better US made options. Ice Breaker is middle of the pack quality and over priced.
Post by: Metalcat on December 23, 2019, 04:13:32 PM
When I saw that Ice Breaker is made in China, I had to look it up. It’s $40-$50 Cdn on Taobao, probably being sold by the factory that manufactures it.
Yep. Merino wool is worth it but there are much better US made options. Ice Breaker is middle of the pack quality and over priced.
Recommendations please.
I'm looking for a new brand.
Post by: markbike528CBX on December 23, 2019, 04:52:42 PM
ATVs are for millionaires.
(That and fancy tractors!)
Getting firewood at a neighbors but there's a hill and just a little moisture; my $250 used garden tractor (and my neighbors ~$1000 new garden tractor) were struggling to get enough rear-wheel-drive traction to pull our little trailers full (or kinda full) of firewood. I (half-jokingly) asked my wife if I could get a four-wheeler for the job. She said no way, for one purpose?! What are they, $1000? I couldn't break it to her, that's the price for a beat up used one on CL. New ones are $4k!
And sheesh, tractors. Given my bumpy backyard, I wouldn't want the cheapest possible (new) tractor if my $250 one died. The beefy ones start at $2k and for the real farm-ready ones, they are easily $15k-$20k before adding a bucket. Oof. If I was a millionaire...
Tell her that they are great for clearing snow too. And they are a lot of fun. "Fun" is a purpose too, right?
The same weekend that my parents moved from our childhood home in the suburbs to what they planned to have as their retirement home (far outskirts of town, 10 acres of land), my father stopped by the local John Deere and bought an $18k tractor without my mom's consent - and this was 20 years ago...so $30k or so now? They were not millionaires.
Still, he definitely got his use out of that thing. He was constantly inventing things to do with it, and was on it nearly every day.
AND you can get a Porsche https://www.porscheclubgb.com/regions-registers/registers/classic/porsche-tractor or Lamborghini in one of 24 models https://www.lamborghini-tractors.com/en-eu/tractors/full-range
The only Porsche tractor I remember seeing was in the Zuffenhausen dealership across from the Porsche Museum.
When I was in Germany, the John Deere factory/showroom was just down the street from the hotel.
Antimustachianism knows no bounds.
Post by: HBFIRE on December 23, 2019, 04:54:49 PM
ommendations please.
I'm looking for a new brand.
Sort of depends which items you buy for merino wool.
For socks, I havent found better than Darn Tough, but they are $$$. Not only is it made in the US, absolutely nothing is outsourced and they've been specializing in socks for over 40 yrs.
I've been testing out Duckworth lately which is all US made.
I just realized some of my favorites are actually made in Turkey. But I think it's of better quality than china made goods.
I use Taylor Stitch Civic Collection....unfortunately I believe they only make men's goods though that may not matter for T shirts. These are by far my favorite mernio t shirts for quality:price ratio. You can use their sign up 20% off muiltiple times.
For base layers, I prefer patagonia's capilene (capilene air hoody is really a technically amazing base layer, it combines amazing technology with merino) to anything else, though I'm not sure where its made. It's a combination of merino and polyester which is superior to 100% merino for stretch and breathability.
The above is all face punch worthy, I have accepted that. Merino Wool I think is really worth it.
Post by: OtherJen on December 23, 2019, 05:53:56 PM
Yes, merino wool is fantastic. I recently knitted myself a couple of 100% merino wool sweaters, and they are so lightweight and warm.
Post by: Fomerly known as something on December 24, 2019, 08:24:44 AM
I'll challenge the OP in saying that going downtown to sporting events is for millionaires. I'm guilty of taking in the occasional professional sports event in my downtown too so I'm guilty as charged myself here! Also, buying beer and concessions at sporting events is for millionaires. Again, I'm too often guilty as charged here.
$2 beer and hot dog nights on Friday's at my local hockey minor league team. It use to be $1 but the arena lost too much money.
Post by: DadJokes on December 24, 2019, 09:23:30 AM
I'll challenge the OP in saying that going downtown to sporting events is for millionaires. I'm guilty of taking in the occasional professional sports event in my downtown too so I'm guilty as charged myself here! Also, buying beer and concessions at sporting events is for millionaires. Again, I'm too often guilty as charged here.
$2 beer and hot dog nights on Friday's at my local hockey minor league team. It use to be $1 but the arena lost too much money.
I wish you could get $2 beer at an NHL game... I think it's like $10 here, so I drink before games if I drink at all.
Last night was a 1/2 price food night, and I got a $20 arena gift card for donating blood. It was the first time we'd actually bought food at the arena in a while.
At 1/2 price, that $20 was enough to buy 2 chicken strip baskets, a popcorn, and a bottomless soda. At normal price, that amount of food would cost as much as a ticket to the game. Freaking price gouging...
Post by: Just Joe on January 08, 2020, 10:11:07 AM
I understand the point of the thread but some of these are opportunity costs.
My wife finally convinced me of this.
Perfect example. I used to do our lawn.
On my off day, I'd spent around ~3 hrs of my day cutting edging cleaning up my lawn and I always put it off until the lawn are out of control.
My wife would always say you make too much money, pay someone to do it.
If I just spent 1 extra hour working, I can make more than enough to pay for 1 lawn cut($30 for a lawn cut).
So spent 1 extra hour working which takes very little effort or 3 hours on my free time to do lawn which I don't enjoy very much.
Yeah, I'm choosing to pay for lawn care now.
I look at lawn care that i do myself as a productive use of my time where otherwise i probably wouldn't be doing much at all. Like on a sunday morning. I can either be watching tv or reading or whatnot. But instead I'm cutting the grass.
Plus I like doing my own yard. Love the smell of fresh cut grass
One could also argue that having a lawn that takes 3h to cut is for millionaires ;)
Depends how you do it.
https://youtu.be/asBo3JUWwDU?t=1920
Are you saying it costs a fortune to maintain? I'm riding a 25 year old lawn tractor that I maintain myself (cost me half a quart of oil last year and I sharpened the blades). It uses a gallon of gas I guess per cut. Trimmer is five or more years old now. Costs half a pint of fuel, and a few cents worth of trimmer string. Leaf blower runs for about ten minutes to clean everything up. We're far enough away from everyone else that my noise doesn't bother anyone.
Bonus points: a little walking, that fresh cut grass smell, sort of cathartic to do the task. Either I think stuff out or listen to podcasts.
Post by: Just Joe on January 08, 2020, 10:27:18 AM
And...?
I've attended high end corporate meetings wearing clothes covered in paint. Sometimes the "I don't give a fuck about impressing you" message is *exactly* what you want to convey.
And presumably you have a good story to tell if asked.* If you're in a professional environment, and you wear tattered clothes on a daily basis, you just exude unprofessionalism and give the message of "I don't give a fuck" to your bosses and other influential people.
*Reminds me of a scene in the "Pursuit of Happyness" movie, wherein Will Smith's character is interviewing for a job in a wife beater and covered in paint following a night spent in jail; after trying to think of a good story a la Seuss's Mulberry Street, he decides to just tell the truth and ends up getting the job.
My story was "I'm painting".
My message was "my time is incredibly valuable, so get to the point."
I'm not advocating that people not dress appropriately for work, my point was that sometimes the message that a slovenly appearance sends *is* exactly the message one wants to communicate.
Some of us are busy engineers. Holes, burns and stains on our clothes is exactly the appearance we want to convey to our bosses. I was dressed that way yesterday while in a planning meeting with my boss's boss.
Post by: markbike528CBX on January 09, 2020, 11:40:52 AM
My old job: Cotton/jeans = worker or boss with a clueAnd...?
I've attended high end corporate meetings wearing clothes covered in paint. Sometimes the "I don't give a fuck about impressing you" message is *exactly* what you want to convey.
And presumably you have a good story to tell if asked.* If you're in a professional environment, and you wear tattered clothes on a daily basis, you just exude unprofessionalism and give the message of "I don't give a fuck" to your bosses and other influential people.
*Reminds me of a scene in the "Pursuit of Happyness" movie, wherein Will Smith's character is interviewing for a job in a wife beater and covered in paint following a night spent in jail; after trying to think of a good story a la Seuss's Mulberry Street, he decides to just tell the truth and ends up getting the job.
My story was "I'm painting".
My message was "my time is incredibly valuable, so get to the point."
I'm not advocating that people not dress appropriately for work, my point was that sometimes the message that a slovenly appearance sends *is* exactly the message one wants to communicate.
Some of us are busy engineers. Holes, burns and stains on our clothes is exactly the appearance we want to convey to our bosses. I was dressed that way yesterday while in a planning meeting with my boss's boss.
Polyester= clueless boss, some of whom should know better, but have been out of touch so long they've forgotten.
Reason: polyester is a radon sponge (electrostatic). In order to get out of a radiological facility, you have to go through a rad monitor.
Benefit: workers get to giggle at boss, who is now wearing scrubs.
Fun fact: this is how high-radon houses were discovered.
Post by: partgypsy on January 09, 2020, 01:46:16 PM
Post by: RetiredAt63 on January 09, 2020, 06:36:39 PM
Post by: OtherJen on January 09, 2020, 07:14:56 PM
Doctors and veterinarians want sparkling white lab coats. We biologists can tell stories about every stain on our lab coats. ;-)
Crystal violet is especially festive, although Coomassie blue holds its own.
Post by: markbike528CBX on January 09, 2020, 10:40:16 PM
Don't want to thread jack but curious. People who were living in high radon houses noticed they had a bunch of electrostatic electricity, or what?
Disclaimer: I was told a slighly different tale but key details are close enough.
https://www.wallingfordpahomes.com/blog/2015/01/pennsylvanias-role-in-the-discovery-of-radon-dangers/
The actual story, it is even better, because the plant was NOT operating therefore no issue with the worker or workplace procedures, the radioactivity HAD to be from offsite.
"In December 1984 Stanley J. Watras was a construction engineer at the Limerick nuclear power plant in Pottstown, Pennsylvania. Workers at the site were subject to radiation screening as they left the plant on a daily basis. One day Mr. Watras happened to enter the plant through the EXIT portal and set off the radiation alarms of the monitoring devices.
At that time the Environmental Protection Bureau (EPA) Bureau received a telephone call from the Health Physicist at the Limerick site informing the EPA that a construction worker at the plant under construction, that housed no radioactive material yet, was setting off alarms when he attempted to enter the plant. Mr Watras was indeed radioactive but it was not from exposure at the plant.
Perplexed by the fact that Mr. Watras was triggering radiation alarms as he entered the facility, representatives from the utility performed a radiation survey at the Boyertown, PA home of Mr. Watras and found excessively high levels of radon throughout his home. They measured radiation levels almost 700 times higher than the maximum level considered safe for human exposure. The Watras home tested at 2,700 picocuries per liter, the prescribed “safe” level is at or below 4 picocuries per liter. This level of exposure to radon was estimated to be the equivalent of smoking a several hundred packs of cigarettes on a daily basis.
The Watras family moved out of the house immediately, while the problem was being researched. After Mr. Watras and his family left their home the EPA and the state of Pennsylvania turned the home into a laboratory for long-term measurement of radon and evaluation of radon mitigation techniques. After many months, they reduced the radon concentration to an acceptable level, and the family was able to return. After installing a radon reduction system, radon levels in the home tested below 4 picocuries per liter.
And so began the EPA’s involvement in radon measurement and monitoring of residential dwellings. The EPA had to come up with an acceptable level for indoor radon, and settled on 4 picocuries per liter. A picocurie is a measurement of radioactivity related to the rate of decay. In 1986 it was established that at a level of 4 picocuries per liter, the vast majority of homes could economically be reduced to an acceptable level of exposure. This was not based on a “safe level of radon”, as it was a political and economic decision. In a perfect world the level would be zero.
Radon, produced by decaying uranium, is common in rock and soil. It is particularly prevalent in coastal Maine and along the Reading Prong, a geological formation rich in uranium extending through eastern Pennsylvania, northern New Jersey and parts of New York. Odorless, the gas cannot be detected except by special devices, and its occurrence is so frequent and so unpredictable that the EPA recommends that every house in America be tested.
The highest radon level ever recorded in Pennsylvania is 3,715 picocuries per liter was discovered December 2014 in a house in Upper Saucon Township, Lehigh County."
At that time the Environmental Protection Bureau (EPA) Bureau received a telephone call from the Health Physicist at the Limerick site informing the EPA that a construction worker at the plant under construction, that housed no radioactive material yet, was setting off alarms when he attempted to enter the plant. Mr Watras was indeed radioactive but it was not from exposure at the plant.
Perplexed by the fact that Mr. Watras was triggering radiation alarms as he entered the facility, representatives from the utility performed a radiation survey at the Boyertown, PA home of Mr. Watras and found excessively high levels of radon throughout his home. They measured radiation levels almost 700 times higher than the maximum level considered safe for human exposure. The Watras home tested at 2,700 picocuries per liter, the prescribed “safe” level is at or below 4 picocuries per liter. This level of exposure to radon was estimated to be the equivalent of smoking a several hundred packs of cigarettes on a daily basis.
The Watras family moved out of the house immediately, while the problem was being researched. After Mr. Watras and his family left their home the EPA and the state of Pennsylvania turned the home into a laboratory for long-term measurement of radon and evaluation of radon mitigation techniques. After many months, they reduced the radon concentration to an acceptable level, and the family was able to return. After installing a radon reduction system, radon levels in the home tested below 4 picocuries per liter.
And so began the EPA’s involvement in radon measurement and monitoring of residential dwellings. The EPA had to come up with an acceptable level for indoor radon, and settled on 4 picocuries per liter. A picocurie is a measurement of radioactivity related to the rate of decay. In 1986 it was established that at a level of 4 picocuries per liter, the vast majority of homes could economically be reduced to an acceptable level of exposure. This was not based on a “safe level of radon”, as it was a political and economic decision. In a perfect world the level would be zero.
Radon, produced by decaying uranium, is common in rock and soil. It is particularly prevalent in coastal Maine and along the Reading Prong, a geological formation rich in uranium extending through eastern Pennsylvania, northern New Jersey and parts of New York. Odorless, the gas cannot be detected except by special devices, and its occurrence is so frequent and so unpredictable that the EPA recommends that every house in America be tested.
The highest radon level ever recorded in Pennsylvania is 3,715 picocuries per liter was discovered December 2014 in a house in Upper Saucon Township, Lehigh County."
https://www.nytimes.com/1986/03/10/nyregion/radon-in-houses-is-viewed-as-wider-threat-in-3-states.html
http://hmp.lancema.us/2019docs/17%20Section%204.3.7%20-%20Radon%20Exposure%20Jan19.pdf
There are no ENTRY personel radiation monitors (why bother taking radioactive materials INTO a power plant?). If you are hot enough to be a problem then you'd set off other radiation monitors on-site.
Post by: Metalcat on January 10, 2020, 04:21:19 AM
Doctors and veterinarians want sparkling white lab coats. We biologists can tell stories about every stain on our lab coats. ;-)
Umm...no
My lab coat is black to hide all of the blood splatter.
Post by: LennStar on January 10, 2020, 09:46:50 AM
Disclaimer: I was told a slighly different tale but key details are close enough.
https://www.wallingfordpahomes.com/blog/2015/01/pennsylvanias-role-in-the-discovery-of-radon-dangers/
The actual story, it is even better, because the plant was NOT operating therefore no issue with the worker or workplace procedures, the radioactivity HAD to be from offsite."In December 1984 Stanley J. Watras was a construction engineer at the Limerick nuclear power plant in Pottstown, Pennsylvania. Workers at the site were subject to radiation screening as they left the plant on a daily basis. One day Mr. Watras happened to enter the plant through the EXIT portal and set off the radiation alarms of the monitoring devices.
[/i]
In his earlier days Terry Pratchett was a PR speaker for a nuclear power plant. One day this thing happened too - one visitor set off the alarms going in.
Turns out he had been dismantling a WWII altitude meter the day before, which, so the pilot could see in the dark, had been made with radioactive material to glow.
Now imagine the faces of the neighbors when the plants' yellow suit guys walked into his home...
Post by: Cranky on January 10, 2020, 12:27:50 PM
Post by: RetiredAt63 on January 11, 2020, 12:04:55 AM
That’s why I bought dh a festive tie dye labcoat!
Is one of the colours dried blood rust? ;-)
Post by: libertarian4321 on January 11, 2020, 04:30:22 AM
Profligate spending, and a lack of frugality, is more likely in BROKE PEOPLE (in other words, regular Americans) than it is for millionaires.
Post by: DadJokes on January 11, 2020, 07:37:00 PM
Perhaps the subject line should read "______ is for SPENDERS", not millionaires, as most millionaires are frugal (that is a large part of the reason that they are millionaires).
Profligate spending, and a lack of frugality, is more likely in BROKE PEOPLE (in other words, regular Americans) than it is for millionaires.
It was a play on MMM's blog post, "Pizza Delivery is for Millionaires," which I explained in the initial post.