Are Hybrid cars mustachian?

[FrugalFisherman10]

I recently got more acquainted with the inner workings of my 2002 Nissan Frontier and found most of the DIY work I needed to accomplish pretty straightforward. I even exclaimed at one point to my friend helping me "I think my model of this truck is the easiest, most simplified version to work on, seeing what these other scenarios could be if I had an automatic transmission, power this or that, etc."

Nonetheless, I am now slowly looking to find a new car in the next year or so. With my previous experience in mind, I have been doing some research on hybrid cars, for instance the hybrid Toyota Rav 4, the Hybrid Subaru Crosstrek, or the Hybrid Nissan Rogue. In reading about them, I see that the hybrid version of the Toyota has 4 extra motors sending power to all of its wheels, and extra battery power, accounting for an extra 325 lbs over the non-hybrid variant.
I don't know much about this, but at first glance that seems like "a lot more complexity", for starters.

I'm not knocking hybrids generally, and I'm not suggesting they aren't practical. Saving money on gas for the whole life of the car sure is practical, and paying a little premium up front to do so sure seems to pay off.
But, if DIY/insourcing is a key tenet of Mustachianism, do Hybrid cars bring additional complexity that more often stands in the way of being able to fix your own car when it breaks, maintain it as needed, etc.?
Perhaps I'm just overstating in my head how much more complex they are. Changing your brake pads for example...with a hybrid, does this involve getting around some motor or something?

So what do you think? Are hybrid cars Mustachian?

[inline five]

Tons and tons of DIY videos on the Prius series on YouTube.

[Acastus]

The answer depends on your driving habits. Hybrids are very efficient at driving around town. By reclaiming the braking energy, they keep city mpg very close to highway mpg. Especially if you do a lot of start-stop driving, they can be a good choice. If you do a lot of highway driving, then they are no better than a conventional car, and they have extra, heavy equipment that leaches off some energy.

The second consideration is that they are mostly the highest trim level, i.e. cost, for a given model. Would you buy the other high end model, or a more basic one if you did not pick the hybrid? If you would choose a cheaper model, then you will pay a lot more for the hybrid. Even at $4 gas and $ 0.10 electricity, you will probably not break even on fuel vs. added car cost for well over 100k miles.

[ixtap]

Have you considered a smaller car?

[YttriumNitrate]

When I was buying a commuter car** for my mostly highway commute I ran the numbers comparing a Mitsubishi Mirage and a Toyota Prius and a Toyota Prius C. I would have had to drive the regular Prius 750,000 miles (at $3/gal gas) to break even with the Mirage, and the Prius C was even worse. That being said, the Prius is a lot nicer car than the Mirage.

**Yeah, that statement is facepunch worthy.

[FrugalFisherman10]

I have considered a smaller car, yes, and I'm not stuck on any of these yet.  I actually really like the Prius C mentioned above. It is tiny though, and I do alot of things requiring 'gear' (kayaking, fly fishing with a long fishing rod, uneven terrain (less of an issue/concern).

But, that wasn't really what I was asking about :p

I was just asking in general if Hybrid cars are mustachian, not based on price/gas comparisons alone, but based on the idealogies of "Mustachianism". what do you think?

[HipGnosis]

I have considered a smaller car, yes, and I'm not stuck on any of these yet.  I actually really like the Prius C mentioned above. It is tiny though, and I do alot of things requiring 'gear' (kayaking, fly fishing with a long fishing rod, uneven terrain (less of an issue/concern).

But, that wasn't really what I was asking about :p

I was just asking in general if Hybrid cars are mustachian, not based on price/gas comparisons alone, but based on the idealogies of "Mustachianism". what do you think?

But... 'mustachianism' MEANS to consider the price and gas use/savings.  To ignore it is akin to doing a half knock on a door.

[RWD]

That being said, the Prius is a lot nicer car than the Mirage.

Understatement of the year. The Mirage is a Little Tikes car with a motor.

[RWD]

I was just asking in general if Hybrid cars are mustachian, not based on price/gas comparisons alone, but based on the idealogies of "Mustachianism". what do you think?

Modern cars are already too complicated for a lot of DIY stuff. So many computers and specialized tools. Hybrids don't really take that much further from what you'd be able to tackle yourself anyway. You'll still be able to do your own oil changes, brake pads, etc. You still won't be repairing the transmission.

If you want to avoid complexity you should be looking at fully electric cars and ditch the gas engine.

[Linea_Norway]

Here in Norway, many of the hybrid cars are in the expensive market segment, often with 4x4. The government gave a tax reduction on hybrid cars and most manufacturers have used that to make their expensive models more affordable. There cars can often drive a very short stretch on electric before they start using quite a bit of fuel.
From what I read, the best 4x4 chargeable Hybrid on the market last year was the Mitsubishi Outlander, which has a 50 km range for driving electric. Most other models that were compared in the test, didn't make the 50 kms in the winter.

DH and I are waiting until more brands offer cheaper models of a 4x4 chargeable hybrid. The Norwegian government is also changing their rules, that will soon require a hybrid car to be able to drive longer on electricity that many of today's fancy models do.
DH thinks that we preferable should buy a hybrid that has a total electric motor that drives the wheels and that only uses fuel to load the electric motor after it has gone empty. Some hybrid cars have 2 motors that drive the wheels, which is more maintenance than just having electro motor. DH said we should also consider buying a fully electric car when FIREd, if Tesla ever gets a competitor that makes long-range cars. His argument is that electro motors require much less maintenance than a (partly) fuel car.

[PC2K]

I would just try to calculate the cost per mile over the lifetime; including DIY on a simple are vs estimate dealer maintenance cost of a complex (hybrid) car.

As for car size; it's cheaper to make things smaller than to take a larger car. You can also use things like trailers, roof rack or cargo platform to move bulky stuff.

[elliha]

I was just asking in general if Hybrid cars are mustachian, not based on price/gas comparisons alone, but based on the idealogies of "Mustachianism". what do you think?

Modern cars are already too complicated for a lot of DIY stuff. So many computers and specialized tools. Hybrids don't really take that much further from what you'd be able to tackle yourself anyway. You'll still be able to do your own oil changes, brake pads, etc. You still won't be repairing the transmission.

If you want to avoid complexity you should be looking at fully electric cars and ditch the gas engine.

A mechanic pointed out to me that at least from the mid 80s people have said to him that you can't fix cars yourself anymore but still people do find ways to fix cars after a couple of years and many people readily fix cars that once were considered to be "unfixable" by a non mechanic when they were new. It is just that with time passing things that were super complex have turned super simple. My husband fixes a lot of things on our car from 2003. Not everything but he would not be likely to fix everything in a car from say 1975 either. I am 100% sure that cars that now are considered impossible to DIY today will be in time.

[kendallf]

I do all of my own repairs, and I think my Prii (we own 3 in my family) are the best cars we've ever had. Incredibly low maintenance needs in general.  There are a few unique items on it but as mentioned above there's a huge wealth of online DIY info for them as well.  I recently rebuilt the hybrid battery for a friend's Prius and that wasn't particularly difficult.

[Ottawa]

I have a Hybrid Prius.  I am a Mustachian.  Therefore, Hybrids are Mustachian.  :-)

[swampwiz]

I would just try to calculate the cost per mile over the lifetime; including DIY on a simple are vs estimate dealer maintenance cost of a complex (hybrid) car.

As for car size; it's cheaper to make things smaller than to take a larger car. You can also use things like trailers, roof rack or cargo platform to move bulky stuff.

This is an interesting topic.  I currently drive my very Moustachian 165K, 2003 VW Jetta Wagon ($350 wholesale value, LOL), but when I was looking to buy it in 2005 (as a replacement for my 2001 VW Beetle that got wet during that year's hurricane season), I considered this model vs. the Golf, which shared the same platform and was basically the same car minus an extra foot or so of space in the back, and as the wagon was a lot harder to find (I basically did a nationwide search for certified used cars - this model had stopped being made by then) than the Golf, it seemed that there was a differential in price of about $2K or so from the listings, which seemed a lot for that extra foot.  I figured that if I needed to haul more/bigger stuff than could fit in the Golf (i.e., both would be with the back seats folded down, which is how I always keep my wagon except for the very rare times I need to haul more people than can sit shotgun), I would simply rent a trailer.  And at that differential in price, I could have purchased my own trailer

Well, as it turned out, I ended up many, many times hauling stuff in the wagon that I would have needed to rent the trailer had I instead gotten a Golf, including a few times going somewhere and staying for a while, which would have incurred the expensive drop-off fee.  And I ended up getting a deal where the price differential between the wagon and the Golf was only about $1200, so I got the wagon.

I am definitely a fan of the wagon style; with the back seat folded down, there is A LOT of space.  One of my hobbies is pinball machines, and of course, the wagon fits a single machine wonderfully, making buying/moving them not a hassle at all.  Also, for a while after the event that made my previous car wet, I was very mobile, so I had a decent amount of stuff that I was hauling around (this was when notebook computers still were expensive), although I probably could have still stuffed it in the Golf, albeit with the back of the car too stuffed to see through.

[swampwiz]

I have a Hybrid Prius.  I am a Mustachian.  Therefore, Hybrids are Mustachian.  :-)

logic fail

[swampwiz]

If you want to avoid complexity you should be looking at fully electric cars and ditch the gas engine.

Yes, the new wave of electrical cars are going to be low/easy maintenance - for those who even continue to buy cars rather than use driverless taxis.

[RWD]

I was just asking in general if Hybrid cars are mustachian, not based on price/gas comparisons alone, but based on the idealogies of "Mustachianism". what do you think?

Modern cars are already too complicated for a lot of DIY stuff. So many computers and specialized tools. Hybrids don't really take that much further from what you'd be able to tackle yourself anyway. You'll still be able to do your own oil changes, brake pads, etc. You still won't be repairing the transmission.

If you want to avoid complexity you should be looking at fully electric cars and ditch the gas engine.

A mechanic pointed out to me that at least from the mid 80s people have said to him that you can't fix cars yourself anymore but still people do find ways to fix cars after a couple of years and many people readily fix cars that once were considered to be "unfixable" by a non mechanic when they were new. It is just that with time passing things that were super complex have turned super simple. My husband fixes a lot of things on our car from 2003. Not everything but he would not be likely to fix everything in a car from say 1975 either. I am 100% sure that cars that now are considered impossible to DIY today will be in time.

I agree, in general even as cars get more complicated the tools available to the individual have also become more powerful to match. We now can tap into the the vast knowledge database of the internet which also greatly increases what can be accomplished by non-mechanics.

My biggest worry is manufacturers deliberately locking people out with software. We're seeing it with Tesla remotely disabling supercharger functionality on select cars. Check out the Rich Rebuilds YouTube channel for examples of Tesla making it as difficult as possible for self-repair. This is why stuff like Right to Repair is so important.

[inline five]

I was just asking in general if Hybrid cars are mustachian, not based on price/gas comparisons alone, but based on the idealogies of "Mustachianism". what do you think?

Modern cars are already too complicated for a lot of DIY stuff. So many computers and specialized tools. Hybrids don't really take that much further from what you'd be able to tackle yourself anyway. You'll still be able to do your own oil changes, brake pads, etc. You still won't be repairing the transmission.

If you want to avoid complexity you should be looking at fully electric cars and ditch the gas engine.

A mechanic pointed out to me that at least from the mid 80s people have said to him that you can't fix cars yourself anymore but still people do find ways to fix cars after a couple of years and many people readily fix cars that once were considered to be "unfixable" by a non mechanic when they were new. It is just that with time passing things that were super complex have turned super simple. My husband fixes a lot of things on our car from 2003. Not everything but he would not be likely to fix everything in a car from say 1975 either. I am 100% sure that cars that now are considered impossible to DIY today will be in time.

I agree, in general even as cars get more complicated the tools available to the individual have also become more powerful to match. We now can tap into the the vast knowledge database of the internet which also greatly increases what can be accomplished by non-mechanics.

My biggest worry is manufacturers deliberately locking people out with software. We're seeing it with Tesla remotely disabling supercharger functionality on select cars. Check out the Rich Rebuilds YouTube channel for examples of Tesla making it as difficult as possible for self-repair. This is why stuff like Right to Repair is so important.

I just watched a couple of his videos, very interesting hobby he has!

[FrugalFisherman10]

I was just asking in general if Hybrid cars are mustachian, not based on price/gas comparisons alone, but based on the idealogies of "Mustachianism". what do you think?

Modern cars are already too complicated for a lot of DIY stuff. So many computers and specialized tools. Hybrids don't really take that much further from what you'd be able to tackle yourself anyway. You'll still be able to do your own oil changes, brake pads, etc. You still won't be repairing the transmission.

If you want to avoid complexity you should be looking at fully electric cars and ditch the gas engine.

A mechanic pointed out to me that at least from the mid 80s people have said to him that you can't fix cars yourself anymore but still people do find ways to fix cars after a couple of years and many people readily fix cars that once were considered to be "unfixable" by a non mechanic when they were new. It is just that with time passing things that were super complex have turned super simple. My husband fixes a lot of things on our car from 2003. Not everything but he would not be likely to fix everything in a car from say 1975 either. I am 100% sure that cars that now are considered impossible to DIY today will be in time.

I agree, in general even as cars get more complicated the tools available to the individual have also become more powerful to match. We now can tap into the the vast knowledge database of the internet which also greatly increases what can be accomplished by non-mechanics.

My biggest worry is manufacturers deliberately locking people out with software. We're seeing it with Tesla remotely disabling supercharger functionality on select cars. Check out the Rich Rebuilds YouTube channel for examples of Tesla making it as difficult as possible for self-repair. This is why stuff like Right to Repair is so important.

I just watched a couple of his videos, very interesting hobby he has!

Yes my roommate was watching that guy the other evening. Honestly it probably had something to do with this question popping in my head to begin with

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[CCCA]

The answer depends on your driving habits. Hybrids are very efficient at driving around town. By reclaiming the braking energy, they keep city mpg very close to highway mpg. Especially if you do a lot of start-stop driving, they can be a good choice. If you do a lot of highway driving, then they are no better than a conventional car, and they have extra, heavy equipment that leaches off some energy.

The second consideration is that they are mostly the highest trim level, i.e. cost, for a given model. Would you buy the other high end model, or a more basic one if you did not pick the hybrid? If you would choose a cheaper model, then you will pay a lot more for the hybrid. Even at $4 gas and $ 0.10 electricity, you will probably not break even on fuel vs. added car cost for well over 100k miles.

the statement bolded above is not true.  I have a 2007 prius and you cannot find me a non-hybrid car that can get 45-50mpg on the highway going 70mph (except maybe some diesels).  Newer hybrids are even more efficient on hte highway.

[MMMarbleheader]

This is an interesting topic.

I have been searching for a used hatchback for a while now. I was offered parking at work (downtown Boston) and may take it so I can get in earlier 6am and leave earlier as public transport has a more rigid schedule

My initial thought was a Prius but I am finding them $2k to $3k more than your versa, Elantra, Mazda 3 group of hatchbacks. I am not going to make that increase back in gas unless it jumps up in price or my commute was longer.

They seem like a big win for rural dwellers like the frugalwoods but I don't see it for me.

[inline five]

This is an interesting topic.

I have been searching for a used hatchback for a while now. I was offered parking at work (downtown Boston) and may take it so I can get in earlier 6am and leave earlier as public transport has a more rigid schedule

My initial thought was a Prius but I am finding them $2k to $3k more than your versa, Elantra, Mazda 3 group of hatchbacks. I am not going to make that increase back in gas unless it jumps up in price or my commute was longer.

They seem like a big win for rural dwellers like the frugalwoods but I don't see it for me.

A Versa and Elantra are no where near in the same class as Prius. I'm not sure about a Mazda 3 as I never drove one to try before we bought our Prius. We rented a Versa earlier this year as a rental and even a new one vs our eight year old Prius the difference was stark.

[Slow2FIRE]

This is an interesting topic.

I have been searching for a used hatchback for a while now. I was offered parking at work (downtown Boston) and may take it so I can get in earlier 6am and leave earlier as public transport has a more rigid schedule

My initial thought was a Prius but I am finding them $2k to $3k more than your versa, Elantra, Mazda 3 group of hatchbacks. I am not going to make that increase back in gas unless it jumps up in price or my commute was longer.

They seem like a big win for rural dwellers like the frugalwoods but I don't see it for me.

A Versa and Elantra are no where near in the same class as Prius. I'm not sure about a Mazda 3 as I never drove one to try before we bought our Prius. We rented a Versa earlier this year as a rental and even a new one vs our eight year old Prius the difference was stark.

We have a current gen Focus Hatchback and a newer Prius.  The comfort and ride quality of the Prius are far better than the Focus (noise, vibration, harshness, suspension, material feel, quality of workmanship).  I've rented an Elantra and I would say it isn't as good as our Focus.  No personal experience with the current gen Mazda 3 though.

[CCCA]

This is an interesting topic.

I have been searching for a used hatchback for a while now. I was offered parking at work (downtown Boston) and may take it so I can get in earlier 6am and leave earlier as public transport has a more rigid schedule

My initial thought was a Prius but I am finding them $2k to $3k more than your versa, Elantra, Mazda 3 group of hatchbacks. I am not going to make that increase back in gas unless it jumps up in price or my commute was longer.

They seem like a big win for rural dwellers like the frugalwoods but I don't see it for me.

Don't know what vintage you are looking at but we have a 2007 Prius with 150k miles on it and everything is great with it.  Should last another 50-100k no problem (which is 8-16 years of our normal driving). 


Prius also hold their value pretty well so if you don't run it into the ground, you might recoup some of that extra $2-3k if you trade up for another used vehicle.