25% of my income goes to taxes

[Ricky]

I never really added if all up... But wow.

13.02% effective federal.
7.5% employee tax
3.9% effective state income.

~25%

That's crazy. I know most of the time most of us are so focused on reducing federal liability but I guess we can never escape the 7.5% employee tax.

The bad thing is I'm only estimating on about a $35k income.

[Lkxe]

This probably isn't all of it either, as the average state tax load (sales, property, ect.) is 9.6%. 

[Ricky]

Yeah I'm just looking at my income and realize how low amount of spending power I really have.

I live in NC so $35k is really $26k. Which is nothing!

[stuckinmn]

You're paying 13% effective on 35k income?  Assuming you're single and using round numbers, you get 10k deduction ( standard deduction plus personal exemption) for taxable income of 25.  10% on the first 10k, plus 15% on the next 15k puts you around 3250 in total taxes for an effective rate under 10%.  Plus that assumes you have no deductions for insurance or 401k.

The great thing about FIRE is you do finally escape that 7.5 payroll tax.

[MDM]

I never really added it all up... But wow.

Yup, good point.  More people should do this.  All too often they "start" with "take home" pay - and some even think a tax refund is "getting money from the IRS."

[franklin w. dixon]

I never really added if all up... But wow.

13.02% effective federal.
7.5% employee tax
3.9% effective state income.

~25%

That's crazy. I know most of the time most of us are so focused on reducing federal liability but I guess we can never escape the 7.5% employee tax.

The bad thing is I'm only estimating on about a $35k income.

Wanna see that tax return because that federal rate makes no sense whatsoever.

[Ricky]

You're paying 13% effective on 35k income?  Assuming you're single and using round numbers, you get 10k deduction ( standard deduction plus personal exemption) for taxable income of 25.  10% on the first 10k, plus 15% on the next 15k puts you around 3250 in total taxes for an effective rate under 10%.  Plus that assumes you have no deductions for insurance or 401k.

The great thing about FIRE is you do finally escape that 7.5 payroll tax.

You're right. I definitely forgot the $3950 personal exemption. It actually came out to effective just under 10%, you're right.

Still a total tax liability of 21% which is still hard to stomach. It was worse last year though because NC just made a flat tax and lowered the rate.

Where I work doesn't offer 401k (stupid I know) and I didn't have insurance this year but will next year.

[GizmoTX]

The great thing about FIRE is you do finally escape that 7.5 payroll tax.

Not all of it, if you have taxable investment income over a threshold amount for your filing status.
IRS: "If you are an individual who is exempt from Medicare taxes, you still may be subject to the Net Investment Income Tax (3.8%) if you have Net Investment Income and also have modified adjusted gross income over the applicable thresholds."

[mxt0133]

Still a total tax liability of 21% which is still hard to stomach. It was worse last year though because NC just made a flat tax and lowered the rate.

I hate to pile on here but your employer also pays half of your employment and Medicare taxes so technically that is part of your pay so that 21% + 7.5% = 28.5%.  Also take into account property tax, and if you rent yes you are paying it in directly, gasoline tax, cell phone taxes, cable taxes, sales taxes, well you get the point.  Aggregate all that up and the average person is paying around 35-40% in taxes.  The up side is you get to live in a first world country with working public services.

[austin]

I only pay 25% of my income towards taxes.

I get a lot out of it, though.

[stuckinmn]

The great thing about FIRE is you do finally escape that 7.5 payroll tax.

Not all of it, if you have taxable investment income over a threshold amount for your filing status.
IRS: "If you are an individual who is exempt from Medicare taxes, you still may be subject to the Net Investment Income Tax (3.8%) if you have Net Investment Income and also have modified adjusted gross income over the applicable thresholds."

Fair point, but if I have modified AGI of 250k (125k if I were single) post FIRE then a 3.8 % tax is the least of my worries. For all intents and purposes FIRE means the end of FICA and Medicare taxes, at least until they change the law.

[sol]

There are so many things wrong with this I'm not even sure where to begin.

Just for starters, the maximum federal taxes due by a single person making $35k is only $3278, or 9.36%.  Ask any tax calculator you can find.  Seriously, any one at all.

Second, the 7.5% "employee tax" you mentioned is a mystery to me.  Do you mean your 7.65% OASDI deduction?  Because that's a payment, not a tax.  You're buying health insurance, disability insurance, unemployment insurance, and an old-age pension known as social security.   And you're getting them at 50% off, because your employer is paying the other half of your premiums.

These first two points don't give a lot of confidence that you've figured your state tax correctly, but I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt on that one.

But why stop there?  North Carolina also has a sales tax which could be as high as 8%.  And even if you're renting you're still paying property taxes to your county.  And I guarantee your utility bill has some hidden taxes and fees built into your monthly bill, too.  Add it all up and it's almost like 50% of your paycheck is just disappearing without you getting anything at all in return. 

I suggest you consider moving to one the countries that does not have an income tax.  Here's a list for you to choose from:  http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2014/01/04/10-countries-with-zero-income-taxes.aspx  Except don't forget most of those countries still make paycheck deductions for disability unemployment and health insurance, and your social security equivalent national pension scheme.

Or, as a friendly alternative, I suggest you consider all of these taxes as repayment of the loans your government has already made to you, by providing you with a free public education, free protection from criminals, free postal delivery, free national defense, free transportation infrastructure, free fire suppression, free environmental protections, free banking and currency regulation, free use of the judiciary and penal systems, free internet and electricity infrastructure, and the free scientific and medical research that has made your life the amazing bounty of easy awesomeness that is today.  You're welcome.

Oliver Wendell Holmes once said "I like to pay taxes. With them I buy civilization."

[stuckinmn]

Sol.  Chill out.  The guy is venting about paying taxes which is a pretty common pasttime worldwide.

You're on other threads dreaming up unique ways to avoid early IRA withdrawal penalties in order to minimize your taxes.  Nothing wrong with your using every legal loophole to minimize taxes, but it seems a bit disingenuous to at the same time be lecturing him about why he should thank his lucky stars for the taxes he pays.

 All of us know taxes are necessary, yet none of us like paying them, including you.  No need to jump his ass about it.

[sol]

No need to jump his ass about it.

But ass-jumping is like, my thing.  Wait, that came out wrong.

I'm not so upset about his desire to pay less taxes.  I am pretty annoyed that his understanding of the tax system he's complaining about is so poor.  Where did he get 13% effective fed tax from?

[Norioch]

I tried running my own numbers just for curiosity's sake, but it's difficult to define the correct way to do the calculation. Should I count tax-deferred contributions to my 401k as income, even though I'll probably pay taxes on that money in later years? What about unrealized capital gains? Realized capital gains that were actually acquired in earlier years? Tax-free gift income? My employers' contribution to my payroll taxes? My health benefits?

In the end I don't think the number would be that useful. I largely don't notice or miss the money automatically deducted from my paycheck, and I consider it a fair price to pay to live in a first world country. I would gladly see my tax rates raised to reduce the deficit. My total marginal tax rate should actually go down next year because I'll be capping out social security for the first time. I'm hardly hurting.

[goodlife]

Yes....this was one of the first things I figured out while still in school...taxes eat up so much of my earnings. So I moved to countries where there is no income tax or very very low ones...and I will stay here until I FIRE.

Yes, of course your tax dollars are not all wasted, yes of course we need tax dollars to fund public goods...but there is also a lot of tax waste which in my opinion does not get reported on enough.

[sol]

In the end I don't think the number would be that useful.

In that sense, it's very much like the comparisons of savings rate that members here like to do.  Unless you're very clear about how you're arriving at your number, it's impossible to do any meaningful comparisons.  My tax rate somewhere between 10% and 100%, depending on how you count it. 

After all, every time I spend my "after-tax" money they government is going to get another cut, by taxing the corporation or the income of the employee, who is going to spend it again where it will get taxed again.  Except in my case I work for the feds, so my salary is paid out of taxes, even though I then turn around and pay taxes right back.  Taxes are really best measured in aggregate as percentage of all economic productivity, because measuring them in dollars quickly devolves into nonsense.

[kpd905]

You can cut down on the employee tax if you have access to an HSA.  You won't pay FICA on HSA contributions if you are able to contribute via paycheck contributions.

[Gin1984]

You can cut down on the employee tax if you have access to an HSA.  You won't pay FICA on HSA contributions if you are able to contribute via paycheck contributions.

Same for a FSA if you don't have access to a high deductible plan.

[SporeSpawn]

The USA does have crazily high taxes. Before moving to California, I lived in Alberta, Canada, which has dramatically lower taxes than the USA. To put it in perspective: the combined Alberta and Canada tax burden is less than the US federal tax burden alone, not even considering California's taxes.

...

Complaining about taxes is a classic example of something outside our circle of control, but let's not kid ourselves -- taxes in the USA are oppressive. Canada (and especially Alberta) has lower taxes and delivers more benefits.

"Oppressive"? I mean, maybe if you're used to paying no taxes at all, but the US is pretty middle of the road on taxes. There are first world countries with higher taxes that get along just fine, there are first world countries with lower taxes that get along just fine. I wouldn't go so far as to call our tax rate "oppressive" just because we're not all paying 1% to the government and nothing more.

I WOULD, however, argue that the US's handling of those taxes is no so much "oppressive" as "ineffective," and that is, honestly, worse.

[lithy]

Second, the 7.5% "employee tax" you mentioned is a mystery to me.  Do you mean your 7.65% OASDI deduction?  Because that's a payment, not a tax.  You're buying health insurance, disability insurance, unemployment insurance, and an old-age pension known as social security.   And you're getting them at 50% off, because your employer is paying the other half of your premiums.

So if it is a payment I can opt out right?

Except in my case I work for the feds, so my salary is paid out of taxes

Oh, now I see.  ;)

[AgileTurtle]

The USA does have crazily high taxes. Before moving to California, I lived in Alberta, Canada, which has dramatically lower taxes than the USA. To put it in perspective: the combined Alberta and Canada tax burden is less than the US federal tax burden alone, not even considering California's taxes.

Complaining about taxes is a classic example of something outside our circle of control, but let's not kid ourselves -- taxes in the USA are oppressive. Canada (and especially Alberta) has lower taxes and delivers more benefits.

Are you sure that Canada has lower taxes? I live across the boarder and know plenty of Canadians who all joke that they are willing to pay higher taxes than us because they get healthcare out of it. I never compared the numbers myself. i wouldn't say that the US has crazy high taxes, that is absurd.

[LalsConstant]

It gets really crazy when you consider the built in taxes for gas phone service etc. That you know exist but don't consciously think about.

On top of that, built into the price of anything you buy are all the taxes of the business you bought it from.  Mom and pop little shops and huge corporations alike are merely pass thru entities, whose customers bear their tax burden.

[nereo]

The USA does have crazily high taxes. Before moving to California, I lived in Alberta, Canada, which has dramatically lower taxes than the USA. To put it in perspective: the combined Alberta and Canada tax burden is less than the US federal tax burden alone, not even considering California's taxes.

that's funny, because I've had exactly the opposite experience; moving from California to Quebec my taxes paid have gone up both federally and provincially.  I also don't entirely understand what you mean that the 'combined Alberta and Canada tax burden is less than the US federal tax burden alone" - are we comparing per capita or per dollar or per what?  I've never lived in Alberta but last year I paid more in taxes to Quebec than I did when I lived in California, despite having very similar base salaries.  YMMV

[BPA]

I don't mind paying taxes.  I get a lot out of paying them.

But like sol, I am paid by taxes, so that might just make me selfish.

Gotta love when people tell me that I owe them money because, "I pay your salary."  Dude, I pay my salary too.

[Raay]

In Germany you'd pay >33% on 100K USD income. So maybe stop bitching?

[lielec11]

Yes....this was one of the first things I figured out while still in school...taxes eat up so much of my earnings. So I moved to countries where there is no income tax or very very low ones...and I will stay here until I FIRE.

For those that didn't look here is the list of the 10 countries:

• United Arab Emirates
• Oman
• Bahrain
• Qatar
• Saudi Arabia
• Kuwait
• Bermuda
• Cayman Islands
• The Bahamas
• Brunei

Going to play devil's advocate here... as you and Sol seem to be recommending how easy is it for most to get up and move to a place like Qatar or Kuwait? And then on top of that, find a decent paying job so you can keep up with your expenses and maintain a savings rate? Also, make sure you can speak and write in Arabic!

[lithy]

I have always found the suggestion to leave the country or the 'be thankful it isn't worse' sentiment implied a couple posts up to be pretty distasteful.

Didn't we already go through this with the whole Iraq war deal with people telling detractors that they could just leave the country if they didn't like it?

I like a lot of things about my country.  I dislike things about my country.  I like enough things to stay.  I dislike enough things to try to change them.

[jka468]

Between federal, state and local I pay 25%, not counting FICA, so stop whining. This isn't even counting secondary taxes likes tolls and sales tax. It's getting absurd in the country, and I can see why people lose incentive to work harder. At my current income, any additional raises or bonuses will be taxed at damn near 45% which is basically robbery.

[larmando]

I'm happy to pay my ~44% taxes. It's part of life and I get free education for children, good public transport, good support for unemployed etc. Generally make a nice society to live in. :) (basically it's like charity, in a more fair manner) :)

[lielec11]

I have always found the suggestion to leave the country or the 'be thankful it isn't worse' sentiment implied a couple posts up to be pretty distasteful.

Didn't we already go through this with the whole Iraq war deal with people telling detractors that they could just leave the country if they didn't like it?

I like a lot of things about my country.  I dislike things about my country.  I like enough things to stay.  I dislike enough things to try to change them.

+1

[Gone Fishing]

Ricky,

Did you fund an IRA?  This will help reduce your tax burden either now (Traditional) or later (Roth).  All you need is earned income, your employer is not involved.

[Lia-Aimee]

In regards to US vs. Canada taxation,  it all depends on the state or province.  Alberta is the lowest-taxed province, and I believe California is your highest-taxed state.  Now compare Québec with say, Texas or Washington, and you've got a very different story. 

My marginal rate is 28% on a 92k income in Alberta. I have no problem paying that. I have more than some problems with the way the governments manage it, however; I wish I could pay tax to non-profits instead.

[nereo]

In regards to US vs. Canada taxation,  it all depends on the state or province.  Alberta is the lowest-taxed province, and I believe California is your highest-taxed state.  Now compare Québec with say, Texas or Washington, and you've got a very different story. 

My marginal rate is 28% on a 92k income in Alberta. I have no problem paying that. I have more than some problems with the way the governments manage it, however; I wish I could pay tax to non-profits instead.

thanks for clarifying that up slightly.  It seems Québec is at the high end while Alberta is the lowest.  I don't understand the sentiment when people say they wish they could give their tax to non-profits instead of to the government though.  That's not taxation, it's charity.  Two separate things that are both necessary at some level in modern society.  I support any money you give to a charity as being non-taxable (is that what you meant?) but not the idea that if my tax burden is $12k that I should be able to choose whether my money goes to the federal government or to groups that rescue wild animals and rehabilitate them.  Particularly during the last presidential cycle in the US there was a strong vocal minority that advocated a choice of giving your tax money to the government or to charities.

[Cromacster]

If you include Federal, FICA, and State income taxes my wife and I pay around 22% in taxes on 130k gross income and I live in what is considered a high tax state.

I personally feel this is relatively a small amount of tax compared to the income we make.  I still fail to believe income tax rates disincentivize working/trying to earn more*.  In my current position I will do whatever I can to stay in the 15% marginal bracket for federal, but I would never turn down a opporunity due to it pushing me over the edge into the 25% bracket.

*The only valid cases I have seen of tax cliffs have been the ACA subsidy.  I can imagine there are other scenarios in retirement/old age where you would want to keep your income under a certain level as well.  These situations are largely related to other benefits not tax rates.

[Gin1984]

If you include Federal, FICA, and State income taxes my wife and I pay around 22% in taxes on 130k gross income and I live in what is considered a high tax state.

I personally feel this is relatively a small amount of tax compared to the income we make.  I still fail to believe income tax rates disincentivize working/trying to earn more*.  In my current position I will do whatever I can to stay in the 15% marginal bracket for federal, but I would never turn down a opporunity due to it pushing me over the edge into the 25% bracket.

*The only valid cases I have seen of tax cliffs have been the ACA subsidy.  I can imagine there are other scenarios in retirement/old age where you would want to keep your income under a certain level as well.  These situations are largely related to other benefits not tax rates.

EITC or saver's credit, which are credits not rates could be seen that way, IMO.

[Lia-Aimee]

@Nereo,

What I meant was that I wish I could give the 28% of my income to non-profits and not pay taxes at all, since having been a public sector employee and being actively involved with some non-profits, I feel the latter are far better at managing money and using it for it's intended purpose. Of course, this would be an absolute nightmare to manage and at best would lead to a myriad of problems if all registered non-profits were eligible, so I'd never politically advocate for it.  I'll just b*tch about it from an ideological standpoint.

[Cromacster]

If you include Federal, FICA, and State income taxes my wife and I pay around 22% in taxes on 130k gross income and I live in what is considered a high tax state.

I personally feel this is relatively a small amount of tax compared to the income we make.  I still fail to believe income tax rates disincentivize working/trying to earn more*.  In my current position I will do whatever I can to stay in the 15% marginal bracket for federal, but I would never turn down a opporunity due to it pushing me over the edge into the 25% bracket.

*The only valid cases I have seen of tax cliffs have been the ACA subsidy.  I can imagine there are other scenarios in retirement/old age where you would want to keep your income under a certain level as well.  These situations are largely related to other benefits not tax rates.

EITC or saver's credit, which are credits not rates could be seen that way, IMO.

Ah yes, forgot about those.  But I feel my point still holds.

[Gin1984]

@Nereo,

What I meant was that I wish I could give the 28% of my income to non-profits and not pay taxes at all, since having been a public sector employee and being actively involved with some non-profits, I feel the latter are far better at managing money and using it for it's intended purpose. Of course, this would be an absolute nightmare to manage and at best would lead to a myriad of problems if all registered non-profits were eligible, so I'd never politically advocate for it.  I'll just b*tch about it from an ideological standpoint.

So you don't think the roads, EPA, research funding, schools, any of those are worth funding? Wow

[Chuck]

I don't have an exact idea of what my total effective tax rate is, since so many of the taxes I pay can be written off to reduce Federal taxes (car tax and property tax, for instance) and my federal liability is further reduced by many writeoffs and credits. My federal liability could very well end up <10%. I will know when I file my taxes early next year.

I pay the same 7.65% that everyone else does in payroll taxes, and I've also had my salary reduced (in theory) by that same 7.65%, so that ~15% tax is inescapable. Also I will pay property taxes to the tune of 3,500 this year- which is about 3% of my gross income. All consumptive spending is subject to the 6% sales tax where I live, including raw food, so that probably amounts to a further 2%. On top of this, I do drive my car like a clown at the circus, and the state/federal gas tax comes into play each time I'm at the pump. Then there is the car tax, which in VA is outragous (2.3% of car value per annum). Combined these consumptive and property taxes add ~1%.

All told, BEFORE whatever my (greatly reduced) federal tax liability is factored in, I pay approx. 21% of my income to state and local government. Best case scenario, I pay just over 25% of my income to taxes. This is remarkable when you consider just how many "pay less tax" boxes I check: Married, Mortgage, Active College Student, etc. If I were single, appartment living and not in school my effective tax rate would be over 40%.

That 40% would actually have been higher if I made less than the ~100k that I make, because many of the taxes above are regressive. That is insane.

 

[lemanfan]

The USA does have crazily high taxes.

Ha!

/Living in Sweden.

[Undecided]

I'm happy to pay my ~44% taxes. It's part of life and I get free education for children, good public transport, good support for unemployed etc. Generally make a nice society to live in. :) (basically it's like charity, in a more fair manner) :)

I pay that rate in income, payroll and supplemental federal taxes (to say nothing of property taxes) and either weak versions of those things or don't get them at all, and I still consider the deal to be good enough not to renounce my citizenship or state residency.

[Eric]

By contrast, Social Security is not an actual investment program, and the FICA contributions are not an investment. FICA is more in the nature of a transfer payment between me and people receiving the benefits. If the FICA contributions stop, all benefits have to stop. In a way, the FICA system is like "living paycheck to paycheck", while the Canadian system is Mustachian.

I think you're slightly confused about how taxes work.  Yes, FICA contributions help fund FICA payments, but no more or less than fuel taxes, income taxes, and every other tax does.  All taxes go into a big pot, and all spending comes out of that pot.  There is no separate account for FICA or any other tax.  So if FICA contributions stop, in no way would benefits have to stop any more than would we have to cut all military operations or stop funding the National Endowment for the Arts.  The fact that you pay a separate tax labeled as FICA doesn't actually mean anything other than you're paying money to the government for them to use as we (collectively) decide.

[Lia-Aimee]

@Roads yes, schools yes (well, ideally I'd like to see wealthy parents pay a user fee so that taxpayer dollars of non-parents could go specifically to improving low-income schools, creating free before and after school care, subsidizing meals and tutoring if necessary etc.) EPA spending (Environmental Protection, right? I'm not American) should come from corporate taxation and research should be funded through non-profits and industry.

But unless everyone else wants a political discussion, PM me to continue. :)

[Spork]

so... as much as I bitch about taxes (and I do!)... I'm feeling all smug now.

Assuming my homemade graphs are correct and everything is categorized correctly... I'm at just under 15%.  And we're tracking (in theory) **EVERYTHING**:  income tax, fica, sales tax, property tax, etc.   This is from actual receipts/expenses vs actual incomes -- not a calculation of theoretical taxes from IRS, etc.   And... I often find where I've miscalculated or miscategorized stuff in gnucash.

[ketchup]

@Nereo,

What I meant was that I wish I could give the 28% of my income to non-profits and not pay taxes at all, since having been a public sector employee and being actively involved with some non-profits, I feel the latter are far better at managing money and using it for it's intended purpose. Of course, this would be an absolute nightmare to manage and at best would lead to a myriad of problems if all registered non-profits were eligible, so I'd never politically advocate for it.  I'll just b*tch about it from an ideological standpoint.

So you don't think the roads, EPA, research funding, schools, any of those are worth funding? Wow

All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh-water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?

[Spork]

@Nereo,

What I meant was that I wish I could give the 28% of my income to non-profits and not pay taxes at all, since having been a public sector employee and being actively involved with some non-profits, I feel the latter are far better at managing money and using it for it's intended purpose. Of course, this would be an absolute nightmare to manage and at best would lead to a myriad of problems if all registered non-profits were eligible, so I'd never politically advocate for it.  I'll just b*tch about it from an ideological standpoint.

So you don't think the roads, EPA, research funding, schools, any of those are worth funding? Wow

All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh-water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?

Splitter!

[Guses]

All told, BEFORE whatever my (greatly reduced) federal tax liability is factored in, I pay approx. 21% of my income to state and local government. Best case scenario, I pay just over 25% of my income to taxes. This is remarkable when you consider just how many "pay less tax" boxes I check: Married, Mortgage, Active College Student, etc. If I were single, appartment living and not in school my effective tax rate would be over 40%.

That 40% would actually have been higher if I made less than the ~100k that I make, because many of the taxes above are regressive. That is insane.

You think this is insane?

How about paying an average rate of 31.84% on that same 100K for Federal and Provincial? Don't forget to add 2-5% in municipal taxes* and 15% sale taxe on anything that you buy with the leftovers.

*Federal governments are downloading responsibilities to provinces and provinces to municipalities which are already debt ridden. Expect to pay 5-10% in the future.

Ohh, we also tax gas, alcohol and other things, but this is all extra. Enjoy! :)
 

[AgileTurtle]

@Roads yes, schools yes (well, ideally I'd like to see wealthy parents pay a user fee so that taxpayer dollars of non-parents could go specifically to improving low-income schools, creating free before and after school care, subsidizing meals and tutoring if necessary etc.) EPA spending (Environmental Protection, right? I'm not American) should come from corporate taxation and research should be funded through non-profits and industry.

But unless everyone else wants a political discussion, PM me to continue. :)

EPA budget is less than revenue from Corporate taxes. So it is in a way paid for by corporate taxes.

[Gin1984]

@Roads yes, schools yes (well, ideally I'd like to see wealthy parents pay a user fee so that taxpayer dollars of non-parents could go specifically to improving low-income schools, creating free before and after school care, subsidizing meals and tutoring if necessary etc.) EPA spending (Environmental Protection, right? I'm not American) should come from corporate taxation and research should be funded through non-profits and industry.

But unless everyone else wants a political discussion, PM me to continue. :)

There have been serious issues with funding being from industry and the results from them.  So you don't think basic science (industry and non-profits don't fund those) should be funded?