Author Topic: 2019 fire cohort  (Read 104566 times)

sui generis

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Re: 2019 fire cohort
« Reply #700 on: May 07, 2018, 10:25:00 AM »
I have a love-hate relationship with the time flying and simultaneously taking forever.  Because of course it takes forever in the work realm.  I swear I've been stuck between 9 and 10 months left for at least 3 months so far.  But it flies in my personal life. I have NO TIME to research all the things I want to have researched before the day comes.  I mean, hopefully I have 4 or more decades of FIRE, so I should have plenty of time *after* but I want to try to get organized for a smoother transition and I feel like I have no time to pay attention to doing that.

In the meantime, my "Sunday blues" is getting worse and worse.  I wake up most mornings - even Saturday and Sunday mornings!, with a hot lead ball in the pit of my stomach.  And way too early, too!  I thought I'd be free of this dread now that I now I'll be physically free of work in less than a year, but it's worse than ever as I feel like I am wasting each day right now.  I'm just too impatient. 

Canadian Ben

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Re: 2019 fire cohort
« Reply #701 on: May 07, 2018, 10:38:54 AM »
430 days for me...

Not counting at all.

exit2019

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Re: 2019 fire cohort
« Reply #702 on: May 07, 2018, 09:25:34 PM »
278 for me.  tick tock.

I have started alleviating my senioritis by adding different kinds of milestones.  Each month has a milestone.  I have a milestone per 50 days down to the last 100 days.  I have 100 day milestones (two left) and a t-2week milestone.  These are all in Countdown+ on my phone.  I count absolute days, not work days.

Weekends are nice because I don't check it on weekends.  So monday is a jump.


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Re: 2019 fire cohort
« Reply #703 on: May 07, 2018, 09:29:54 PM »
Still pondering 2019.  We're 96% of the way to the FI number and 77% of the way to the FIRE number.    I really want to hike the AT in 2019.  I had originally planned for this year but I decided to up the FIRE amount and to cover my youjg adult children with my employer health care.  Dire conditions would need to develop for me to extend beyond 2020.   Good luck with the countdown.
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2Birds1Stone

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Re: 2019 fire cohort
« Reply #704 on: May 08, 2018, 04:23:36 AM »
Things are so incredibly crazy at work right now, I have a feeling I might end up losing my job long before my Nov 1st 2019 goal.

I'm paring down my spending dramatically over the coming months to get my trailing 12 month spending <4% of net worth asap, the projected intersection point is still in the fall of 2019, but work can vaporize at any time.

itchyfeet

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Re: 2019 fire cohort
« Reply #705 on: May 08, 2018, 12:48:26 PM »
I have been having evil thoughts.

Currently DW and I can almost save 2 years of post FIRE spending every year we work.... this got me thinking....

I we worked just 3 more years the funds earned in those 3 years would fund us 9 years (3 years working, then 6 spending the savings), well actually letís say 10 years given the savings from the 3 working years work would earn some returns.

This means not touching our current stash for the next 10years.

If We didnít touch the stash We have already saved for 10 more years it would most likely be worth double what it is today at the end of 10years. DOUBLE 🤑

3 years more work to double our already decent wealth and retirement income, and Iíd still retire before I turn 50.... hmmm...

Doubling the stash by working 3 years would mean never even thinking about money again, and most likely dying very rich.

This compares to FIREing in December with a high probability that we should be able to afford to do the things most important to us in retirement, with some chance of having to wind back the spending later if stocks perform particularly badly over the next 20years.

Sigh, I donít know how much more of this mental abuse I can dish out on myself.

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Re: 2019 fire cohort
« Reply #706 on: May 08, 2018, 03:38:48 PM »
I have been having evil thoughts.

Currently DW and I can almost save 2 years of post FIRE spending every year we work.... this got me thinking....

I we worked just 3 more years the funds earned in those 3 years would fund us 9 years (3 years working, then 6 spending the savings), well actually letís say 10 years given the savings from the 3 working years work would earn some returns.

This means not touching our current stash for the next 10years.

If We didnít touch the stash We have already saved for 10 more years it would most likely be worth double what it is today at the end of 10years. DOUBLE 🤑

3 years more work to double our already decent wealth and retirement income, and Iíd still retire before I turn 50.... hmmm...

Doubling the stash by working 3 years would mean never even thinking about money again, and most likely dying very rich.

This compares to FIREing in December with a high probability that we should be able to afford to do the things most important to us in retirement, with some chance of having to wind back the spending later if stocks perform particularly badly over the next 20years.

Sigh, I donít know how much more of this mental abuse I can dish out on myself.

I've suffered a bit from those same calculations.   Rounding that first million makes things very interesting.   The follow on millions come easier and easier.  The problem is every year worked past 50 puts you at greater risk of having some disease wipe out your future.  My employer has all the benefit packages set up based on retirement no earlier than 55.  I'll be 50 next month and would certainly be able to retire pretty nicely right now.    It's health care that will push me further and further down the OMY path.  The other 800 pound gorilla is there has to be a looming economic slowdown.  It would be nice to ride that out still employed and buy up those lower priced and portfolio multiplying goodies before pulling the plug.
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dresden

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Re: 2019 fire cohort
« Reply #707 on: May 08, 2018, 09:14:28 PM »
I am looking at either March 2019 or October 2019 @ 52.   I would like to work longer, but just didn't recover from an auto accident 14 months ago and multiple fractured vertebrae and head injury.   I am hoping 12-18 months completely off with less sitting will help me and then I might work part-time some as I had really planned to slow down/reduce hours rather than just retire entirely.

The recent stock market performance made this possible a few years ahead of schedule, but I guess that can change in a hurry.

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Re: 2019 fire cohort
« Reply #708 on: May 09, 2018, 12:26:13 AM »
327 days left for me. Not that I'm counting. Not that I have thoughts of giving notice now and leaving before the end of the summer.

I've booked a vacation for next April. I wondered if it was too early to book the time off from work, then realised that I wouldn't need to, though I will, as a token gesture and because I live in perpetual hope that something will happen to make my job satisfying and enjoyable again and I'll want to go on working.

Stumbling from one weekend to the next, or sometimes from one bedtime to the next. It could be worse. Twenty years ago I worked nights and weekends too. I don't know how I did it. I do know that if I had my time over again I'd spend those nights and weekends with my family, not at work.






Linda_Norway

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Re: 2019 fire cohort
« Reply #709 on: May 09, 2018, 01:15:42 AM »
327 days left for me. Not that I'm counting. Not that I have thoughts of giving notice now and leaving before the end of the summer.

I've booked a vacation for next April. I wondered if it was too early to book the time off from work, then realised that I wouldn't need to, though I will, as a token gesture and because I live in perpetual hope that something will happen to make my job satisfying and enjoyable again and I'll want to go on working.

Stumbling from one weekend to the next, or sometimes from one bedtime to the next. It could be worse. Twenty years ago I worked nights and weekends too. I don't know how I did it. I do know that if I had my time over again I'd spend those nights and weekends with my family, not at work.

We are somehow financially on schedule to go part-time from 2019 and FIRE completely in 2020. The thought behind is that we would have gathered the sum to FIRE in 2020 already at the end of 2018. That would mean that we only have to work enough in 2019 to cover for the cost of 2019.

I am really looking forward to taking a mini sabbatical in 2019, like from May to half October. I hope my job will accept that. Another alternative would be to work 1 or 2 days a week less during that period. I think that they would have to allow that, by law.

TartanTallulah

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Re: 2019 fire cohort
« Reply #710 on: May 09, 2018, 03:02:13 AM »
We are somehow financially on schedule to go part-time from 2019 and FIRE completely in 2020. The thought behind is that we would have gathered the sum to FIRE in 2020 already at the end of 2018. That would mean that we only have to work enough in 2019 to cover for the cost of 2019.

I am really looking forward to taking a mini sabbatical in 2019, like from May to half October. I hope my job will accept that. Another alternative would be to work 1 or 2 days a week less during that period. I think that they would have to allow that, by law.

I'm hoping to work one or two days a week less for as long as I can. My colleague who is retiring this summer plans to keep working for us two days a week on a freelance basis until January 2020. I think he'll be gone long before then, but even if he only holds out till the end of August it will make my summer a lot more bearable. We have another freelancer who's keen to work two days a week for us and has just started, and I'm hoping that one works out, and we're interviewing for an associate within the next few weeks. My remaining colleagues have quibbled about how much this will cost, which is ironic because their workload and income will be unaffected; while I've put my life on hold to keep providing a high standard of service, they've continued to drift along doing their three days a week apiece and I'll be the one reducing my workload and income so that we can afford extra pairs of hands. My aim is to bring about a situation in which I won't be missed much when I go.

If everything falls through and it looks as if we'll be short-handed again over the winter, I'll be pulling the plug early rather than waiting until the end of the financial year.



DreamFIRE

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Re: 2019 fire cohort
« Reply #711 on: May 10, 2018, 08:05:39 PM »

My stash hit a new record today despite the fact that stocks are still down a ways from the high in January.  Looks like I'm at about 63X FIRE barebones as of today.  That will give me a nice cushion for fun/entertainment/travel/discretionary.  I'm still on-track for June 2019.

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Re: 2019 fire cohort
« Reply #712 on: May 11, 2018, 07:19:34 AM »
I have been having evil thoughts.

Currently DW and I can almost save 2 years of post FIRE spending every year we work.... this got me thinking....

I we worked just 3 more years the funds earned in those 3 years would fund us 9 years (3 years working, then 6 spending the savings), well actually letís say 10 years given the savings from the 3 working years work would earn some returns.

This means not touching our current stash for the next 10years.

If We didnít touch the stash We have already saved for 10 more years it would most likely be worth double what it is today at the end of 10years. DOUBLE 🤑

3 years more work to double our already decent wealth and retirement income, and Iíd still retire before I turn 50.... hmmm...

Doubling the stash by working 3 years would mean never even thinking about money again, and most likely dying very rich.

This compares to FIREing in December with a high probability that we should be able to afford to do the things most important to us in retirement, with some chance of having to wind back the spending later if stocks perform particularly badly over the next 20years.

Sigh, I donít know how much more of this mental abuse I can dish out on myself.
That sounds very familiar.  I planned to do 3 years @ 2/3rds savings rate past my FI point to give a huge cushion and the possibility to significantly increase spending.  I'm just coming up to the 2 year point, but will be bailing 8 months early as the utility of extra money is diminishing at such a rate.  That's why I defected to the 2018 cohort (but still cheering you guys on).
The really eye-opening thing from having worked on so that I can increase my spending is the discovery that I really don't want to.

Canadian Ben

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Re: 2019 fire cohort
« Reply #713 on: May 11, 2018, 07:29:26 AM »
There's also the tax optimization of working part-time. Since you will have a much lower income, your $/Hr rate might be closer than you expect to the amount you are making while full-time when you add in taxes.

itchyfeet

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Re: 2019 fire cohort
« Reply #714 on: May 12, 2018, 12:09:38 PM »
I have been having evil thoughts.

Currently DW and I can almost save 2 years of post FIRE spending every year we work.... this got me thinking....

I we worked just 3 more years the funds earned in those 3 years would fund us 9 years (3 years working, then 6 spending the savings), well actually letís say 10 years given the savings from the 3 working years work would earn some returns.

This means not touching our current stash for the next 10years....
That sounds very familiar.  I planned to do 3 years @ 2/3rds savings rate past my FI point to give a huge cushion and the possibility to significantly increase spending.  I'm just coming up to the 2 year point, but will be bailing 8 months early as the utility of extra money is diminishing at such a rate.  That's why I defected to the 2018 cohort (but still cheering you guys on).
The really eye-opening thing from having worked on so that I can increase my spending is the discovery that I really don't want to.

Yeah, I really donít want to stay in my current job either.

But we have worked so hard to get to this point it just seems a bit foolish to stop climbing when there is a small risk of sliding back down the hill.

Weíll get past this summer and then take it week by week.

2Birds1Stone

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Re: 2019 fire cohort
« Reply #715 on: May 12, 2018, 01:49:52 PM »
As of last week my net worth cracked 25X bare bones expenses ($15,300)......so my plan to pull the plug next year does not have any margin of safety built in, other than the fact that I know I will have to return to work for a few more years at some point in the future.

Still a cool milestone to hit =)

My ability to be at 25X actual expenses will from this point on be largely up to market returns/declines.

sui generis

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Re: 2019 fire cohort
« Reply #716 on: May 12, 2018, 03:49:28 PM »
As of last week my net worth cracked 25X bare bones expenses ($15,300)......so my plan to pull the plug next year does not have any margin of safety built in, other than the fact that I know I will have to return to work for a few more years at some point in the future.

Still a cool milestone to hit =)

My ability to be at 25X actual expenses will from this point on be largely up to market returns/declines.

Congrats!  A great milestone to hit in the FI journey!

edgema

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Re: 2019 fire cohort
« Reply #717 on: May 14, 2018, 06:10:58 AM »
PhilB - I wouldn't be so hard on yourself as I suspect many on this forum are constantly doing similar calculations and certainly I am. This is only natural given the magnitude of the decision to stop working and a non scientific 'review' of this forum would indicate that few are stopping at 25x bare-bones, so any discussion is really over what life you want to live and what cushion you want to have.

Obviously the decision depends on your own personality (conservative), risk tolerance (low) and what lifestyle you want (pretty high).

As evidenced by all the threads on OMY (and yours is essentially a 3xOMY argument), most people lean toward conservatism (such at DreamFires's 63x number). Greed is a powerful emotion though so I try very hard not to dress up greed as conservatism though!

Personally, you could argue that I am now 14 months into 2xOMY. Probably wouldn't have wanted to admit it at the time but as I approached the obvious dates for me to hit the button, I clearly knew my stash wasn't big enough for me for me to be comfortable doing it. I am now comfortable in knowing that I want my cushion to be large as I am in a high paying job that I certainly cannot return to in five years and have two young children. I haven't really calculated it but I will be probably 50x bare bones and comfortably 30x a very easy 'budget'. 

Good luck.

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Re: 2019 fire cohort
« Reply #718 on: May 14, 2018, 06:22:26 AM »
Is anyone considering buying a second home this year to move to once you retire?

I'm debating doing that late this year.  Current plan is to move there for at least eighteen months and detox from the corporate world.
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PhilB

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Re: 2019 fire cohort
« Reply #719 on: May 14, 2018, 06:35:40 AM »
PhilB - I wouldn't be so hard on yourself as I suspect many on this forum are constantly doing similar calculations and certainly I am. This is only natural given the magnitude of the decision to stop working and a non scientific 'review' of this forum would indicate that few are stopping at 25x bare-bones, so any discussion is really over what life you want to live and what cushion you want to have.

Obviously the decision depends on your own personality (conservative), risk tolerance (low) and what lifestyle you want (pretty high).

As evidenced by all the threads on OMY (and yours is essentially a 3xOMY argument), most people lean toward conservatism (such at DreamFires's 63x number). Greed is a powerful emotion though so I try very hard not to dress up greed as conservatism though!

Personally, you could argue that I am now 14 months into 2xOMY. Probably wouldn't have wanted to admit it at the time but as I approached the obvious dates for me to hit the button, I clearly knew my stash wasn't big enough for me for me to be comfortable doing it. I am now comfortable in knowing that I want my cushion to be large as I am in a high paying job that I certainly cannot return to in five years and have two young children. I haven't really calculated it but I will be probably 50x bare bones and comfortably 30x a very easy 'budget'. 

Good luck.
There's a significant additional factor in my case to make the calculations even more complicated.  DW and I have pensions coming into payment in 2029 and then state pensions in 2031 and 2033 that, between them, would more than cover our basic needs.  The stash therefore doesn't have to be 25x, it just needs to fill the gap and then any left over can be used to provide an income stream for 'extras'.  This is a great position to be in, but it means that whilst someone on a standard 25x plan would go into retirement expecting that their investment growth is most likely going to keep pace with withdrawals, I'm going in knowing I am going to actually SPEND a big chunk of the capital I've worked so hard to amass.
This means that doing OMY has a real double-whammy.  Not only have you taken out a year of capital burn, but that capital (and the OMY earnings) can be added to the permament drawdown pot which reduces the capital burnt in all the other years too.  As I have a strong desire to leave plenty of money to my kids when I kick the bucket, the idea of intentionally spending several hundred thousand pounds of my capital has been a very hard one to reconcile with!

itchyfeet

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Re: 2019 fire cohort
« Reply #720 on: May 14, 2018, 12:47:56 PM »
PhilB - I wouldn't be so hard on yourself as I suspect many on this forum are constantly doing similar calculations and certainly I am. This is only natural given the magnitude of the decision to stop working and a non scientific 'review' of this forum would indicate that few are stopping at 25x bare-bones, so any discussion is really over what life you want to live and what cushion you want to have.

Obviously the decision depends on your own personality (conservative), risk tolerance (low) and what lifestyle you want (pretty high).

As evidenced by all the threads on OMY (and yours is essentially a 3xOMY argument), most people lean toward conservatism (such at DreamFires's 63x number). Greed is a powerful emotion though so I try very hard not to dress up greed as conservatism though!

Personally, you could argue that I am now 14 months into 2xOMY. Probably wouldn't have wanted to admit it at the time but as I approached the obvious dates for me to hit the button, I clearly knew my stash wasn't big enough for me for me to be comfortable doing it. I am now comfortable in knowing that I want my cushion to be large as I am in a high paying job that I certainly cannot return to in five years and have two young children. I haven't really calculated it but I will be probably 50x bare bones and comfortably 30x a very easy 'budget'. 

Good luck.

Bare bones.
- is barebones the minimum you would be happy to live on; or
- is barebones the minimum you could live on... presumably whilst maintaining some semblance of your current life.

Like everyone, we could live on very little. But that is pretty irrelevant to me. I want a bit more than the absolute bare minimum no matter what.

Sure, we could just scrape by on government handouts, others do, but at this point Iíd deem that outcome as a massive failure in my management of my finances. We are just not going there.

So, for me, bare bones is an amount Iíd be ok with if things dont play out as Iíd wish. My definition of bare bones would include a modest house I like, a modest used car I like, a little spending money for meals out and domestic travel, enough money to buy family gifts on their birthdays, and enough to eat what I want at home. Iíd say we are about 50x that kind of bare bones today.

This is a good place to be, but unfortunately I have a good imagination and can dream of what Iíd do with more money. Substantially more money. If my stash was 50% bigger, so 75x comfy barebones we could still spend it.... or at least have a big chunk tied up in non income producing real estate.

At some point one just has to call enough. I am finding this extraordinarily difficult.

I am really thinking I wonít hand my notice in during September as I had planned. DW is not happy with me.


Trifele

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Re: 2019 fire cohort
« Reply #721 on: May 14, 2018, 07:10:01 PM »
For me, 'barebones' is the bare minimum to live on -- eat, pay taxes, buy health insurance and gas for the car -- but not extras like travel.

DreamFIRE

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Re: 2019 fire cohort
« Reply #722 on: May 14, 2018, 09:11:50 PM »
Bare bones.
- is barebones the minimum you would be happy to live on; or
- is barebones the minimum you could live on... presumably whilst maintaining some semblance of your current life.

Like everyone, we could live on very little. But that is pretty irrelevant to me. I want a bit more than the absolute bare minimum no matter what.

Sure, we could just scrape by on government handouts, others do, but at this point Iíd deem that outcome as a massive failure in my management of my finances. We are just not going there.

So, for me, bare bones is an amount Iíd be ok with if things dont play out as Iíd wish. My definition of bare bones would include a modest house I like, a modest used car I like, a little spending money for meals out and domestic travel, enough money to buy family gifts on their birthdays, and enough to eat what I want at home. Iíd say we are about 50x that kind of bare bones today.

This is a good place to be, but unfortunately I have a good imagination and can dream of what Iíd do with more money. Substantially more money. If my stash was 50% bigger, so 75x comfy barebones we could still spend it.... or at least have a big chunk tied up in non income producing real estate.

Barebones is for necessities.  That excludes vacations and eating out.   Those are luxuries.  Reasonable gifts are still included in my barebones.

Some people only include shorter term expenses for barebones to get them by on a temporary basis, but I include both short term and long term expenses in my barebones - the things that I must account for if I was living on barebones for years.  I don't plan to get by on just barebones, but I like to track my barebones for a couple reasons.  One, it lets me calculate how much my stash can deliver for discretionary spending beyond my basic expenses, so I'll know how much extra money I'll have just for having fun during FIRE.  (Stash * 4% - (BB+taxes) = FUN).  And two, it lets me know what I could cut my drawdown back to if needed and still get by as I currently do minus the extras/luxuries.  I would hope to never be in a position to have to deal with that second reason, but at least I know all the numbers.

While I'm at 63X "FIRE" barebones (closer to 80X my current barebones), I don't plan on a <2% WR.  I still plan to have a flexible 4% WR barring a crash of my investments.  The amount beyond barebones is for entertainment/travel/discretionary and to cut back if I feel the need.    So sitting at 63X BB is just more gravy - close to $30K/yr extra beyond necessary expenses - not bad for a single person.  My FIRE date is set a year off for a few other reasons, not because I'm trying to increase my stash at this point.  If I OMY it beyond 2019, it may be more stash/spending related at that point.  I'm not used to spending a lot of dough on luxuries, so I'm not sure if I'll really spend 4%, but who knows what all I'll feel like doing when I FIRE when I finally have the freedom for it.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 09:31:56 PM by DreamFIRE »

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Re: 2019 fire cohort
« Reply #723 on: May 15, 2018, 04:24:58 AM »
The way I define my barebones ($15,300/yr) spending is covering the bare necessities, plus some luxuries like a gym membership, a beater car, adequate insurance, and some misc spending.

In my case it breaks down like this

$550 Rent + Utilities (my half)
$150 Food
$150 Health + Hygiene
$150 Transportation
$100 Entertainment
$50 Cell Phone
$50 Gym/Sport
$75 Misc
$1,275/month

If my landlord sold the house we rent this basement apartment in, we would likely not find such a good deal again.

Healthcare could be much higher than $150/month, given that I am not confident in the ACA subsidies being around forever (though Medicaid is an option I suppose).

I could live a modest lifestyle, and if I were to supplement with even a minimum wage job 2-3 days a week, pretty darn comfortably. So while I'm not at the spending level I intend to live on the rest of my life, I consider myself barebones FI at this point.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2018, 04:27:26 AM by 2Birds1Stone »

edgema

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Re: 2019 fire cohort
« Reply #724 on: May 15, 2018, 04:50:40 AM »
Hi itchyfeet.

That is why I haven't calculated a true bare bones multiple (however one defines it) as it is quite irrelevant to how we want to live our lives unless it was forced on us. My focus has been much more on solving for the life we want to live and having a good financial buffer on that.

That said, our approach is pretty mustachian-lite, if it is even that, solving for big things like house and car but quite relaxed on the rest. Our version of setting up for FIRE has been essentially structural in that we moved from HCOL area (near London) to a L/MCOL (Devon) and this has led to a change in the people we spend time with and what they do with their time/money. From high earning, high spending Londoners, to people with good but lower earnings and spending. Conversations with friends is now generically of going camping in Cornwall versus the colour of Range Rovers (a little harsh but true!).

I am far more comfortable with this 'natural' lowering of the lifestyle bar through the place you live and the people you hang out with, versus having to constantly exclude ourselves from activities things your friends are doing. Threads lamenting that 'I couldn't believe my sister forced us to go to a fancy restaurant and spend $300 on dinner for our parents anniversary' I can get intellectually but feel like a hard way to live, and not what I want to FIRE to.

Specific to you (if I can presume to provide an opinion) but if your imagination has a load of plans for what you would do with a larger stash then I would evaluate those plans with a realistic view of what you would get out of them (appreciating that gold Rolex's tend to only provide fleeting joy) and if that is more than what you would have to put in with extra work - then keep going.

My original RE date was Mar 17 but realised powerfully that this risked missing out on lots of things I genuinely believe will enhance our lives so I pushed this to Mar 19.  We want to go sailing for a year+. Mustachian? Clearly not. Would I regret not doing it? Definitely. Will it be an incredible experience for the family? I certainly hope so!

It is obviously hard as there is no magic number which deals with all the uncertainties inherent in financial planning over long periods. That said, you say you are at 50x a pretty comfortable life by your own definition so without understanding all the complexities, it would seem like that is a pretty big buffer... we could all spend more. What also sounds great for your situation is that DW sound supportive of the plan ("DW is not happy"). Hopefully I am reading that right. I suspect it is more common the other way round with a spouse fearful of some crazy plan to RE ("I think they might be having a mid-life crisis..."). 

I would also encourage you to step back and maintain perspective (I also sometimes lose this - definitely not trying to shame you). You are contemplating how 'luxurious' your imminent retirement might be. We all can wrap ourselves in knots, but "extraordinarily difficult" is something entirely different even if it can feel that way.

We are all grappling with these issues so you are not alone. Good luck!


 



PhilB

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Re: 2019 fire cohort
« Reply #725 on: May 15, 2018, 06:43:54 AM »
I too don't find the term 'bare bones' very useful in the context of choosing when to FIRE, primarily because it just doesn't sound like a lot of fun!
I like to turn things round the other way.  I have a 'default' lifestyle in mind that costs very little, but sholud be very enjoyable indeed.  Pottering around the garden, curling up with a book, cooking delicious food, cycling, walking, etc, etc.  I also have a lot of things I'd like to do that are more expensive - domestic and foreign travel, kayaking trips, home improvements, etc.  Given that my stash more than covers my default lifestyle, I have two potential ways to save up money for the more expensive things - I could work for longer, or I could spend a higher proportion of my days in 'default' mode.
When you're only just above 'default' level, it takes a lot of days in default to save as much as one extra day working.  It probably then makes sense to think 'I'd rather work an extra day for x than have to save up for it for a month'.  The more you stash away though, the more you can 'save' per default day and the equation changes.  I've worked on longer than I probably should have and so for me the equation is now that the money I'd earn from an extra work day I could instead save in 3 or 4 default days.  Thought about like that it becomes very clear indeed which I'd rather do.

sui generis

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Re: 2019 fire cohort
« Reply #726 on: May 15, 2018, 12:02:24 PM »
9 months from today for me! 

I don't find the barebones concept useful to me in terms of FIRE, either - because I would never RE on barebones.  But, still can be useful in terms of just FI.  I think it's a serious milestone on the FI journey and can be really meaningful depending on one's current situation/employment vs. desired and risk tolerance if they are considering a move.

itchyfeet

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Re: 2019 fire cohort
« Reply #727 on: May 15, 2018, 01:23:26 PM »
Hi Edgema

Thanks for your input.

No gold Rolex for me. I have never had a taste for fancy stuff thankfully.

The reason why I am maybe 50x what Iíd accept as a barebones life and not yet 25x my desired post Fire Budget really comes down to a few big elements

1. Housing - I could find something acceptable at a bare bones level, but if we have the money (and we will) then we will live in a more expensive location in a nicer place (not bigger, we donít like big houses). I am budgeting double for housing compared to barebones, so we have plenty of choice over the next 50 years. We have never lived anywhere for more than 5 years so expect we will continue to move around a bit,

2. Travel - We have travelled a lot. We have travelled cheap and we have travelled expensively. I donít disagree with anyone who says you can backpack for a year on $20K, but sometimes travel is even better if you spend more. I could give many examples from my experiences. Not always mind you. Some times spending more is just a waste of money. But for retirement, because we have the option, we want to be able to afford to continue to do some expensive travel for any adventures that take our interest. I will budget 10x barebones travel for desired post fire travel.

3, Eating out - The extra we put in our budget here is just so we can eat out whenever the mood takes us and not have to worry about it. These days we normally have breakfast out once on the weekend, and will eat out prob 2 nights a week. Far from moustachian, but we like to get out with friends, or even just by ourselves.

4. Barebones allows for 1 car. Weíll probably have one car, but I am budgeting for 2. So again doubling the cost.

5. Home remodelling, I assume we will replace kitchen and bathroom every 15 years, and also continue to refit the house periodically. Barebones would allow for older kitchens and bathrooms, being replaced maybe after 30 years.

Our budget will also allow for other luxuries such as gym memberships, theatre/ sports/ concert tickets, sporting equipment, electronic gadgets, pets etc.

Suddenly my FIRE number is big.

DreamFIRE

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Re: 2019 fire cohort
« Reply #728 on: May 15, 2018, 08:01:43 PM »
I too don't find the term 'bare bones' very useful in the context of choosing when to FIRE, primarily because it just doesn't sound like a lot of fun!

Fun was actually part of my formula in my previous post that used barebones to help determine the fun amount.
Stash * 4% - (BB+taxes) = FUN  :)
Keeping track of your BB multiple doesn't mean limiting yourself to BB spending, but it's an important variable (that is somewhat constant) in the equation.  I don't know how much I'm really going to end up spending in FIRE, so I don't have a specific dollar amount goal for spending, but at least I know what my BB is, so it's an important piece of the formula.  That makes 63X BB very useful as a single metric.  The extra is for discretionary/fun/vacations.  BB itself is my minimum for FI to get by comfortably with no thrills.  I have a spreadsheet that breaks everything down in various time ranges for more specifics by year and month for all the key amounts, which is where it calculates the $30K/yr discretionary spending for vacations and such.  That's where the truly important figures are when it comes to my FIRE planning and considerations.  But it's a lot easier to just say I'm at 63X BB on here for consistency, and BB is what my 25X original yardstick was based on for FI.  As the stash grows, the multiple grows.

Quote
I have a 'default' lifestyle in mind that costs very little, but sholud be very enjoyable indeed.  Pottering around the garden, curling up with a book, cooking delicious food, cycling, walking, etc, etc.

That "default" sounds a lot like barebones to me, assuming the food isn't too outrageously expensive.  I would just call it barebones to keep things simple.

Quote
I have two potential ways to save up money for the more expensive things - I could work for longer, or I could spend a higher proportion of my days in 'default' mode.  When you're only just above 'default' level, it takes a lot of days in default to save as much as one extra day working.  It probably then makes sense to think 'I'd rather work an extra day for x than have to save up for it for a month'.

I've reread that a few times, but I must be misunderstanding.  For me,  I'm living just a little above barebones (aka default), but I still save 80% by working today with that budget, and I save 80% at the most if I work one day more.  If I don't keep my spending close to barebones, the one more day of work would allow me to save less, not more, than when I'm sticking to barebones.  I don't save any faster by working tomorrow vs. working today.  So it doesn't take me a lot of days with a BB budget to equal one extra day of work.  Each day is the same.  That's where I'm having trouble comparing my situation to your "lot of days in default saving" or "3 or 4 days of saving" vs "one extra day of saving."  I don't see how these days differ for saving if you're still earning the same income and spending about the same.  And "default"/BB spending with the same income should allow you to save more, not less, than ramping up spending and working another day, if that's the alternative to "default" spending.  I'm assuming by one extra day, that you wouldn't reduce spending to LESS than default.  Hmmm

Quote
The more you stash away though, the more you can 'save' per default day and the equation changes.

Regardless of the size of my stash, I still save in the 70% to 80% range of my take home pay.  The equation does change, I might have dropped to 62X BB today with the drop in stocks, plus my homeowners insurance and property tax just went up.  I guess I could always change my living situation to cut on housing costs.

« Last Edit: May 15, 2018, 08:16:24 PM by DreamFIRE »

PhilB

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Re: 2019 fire cohort
« Reply #729 on: May 16, 2018, 01:45:30 AM »
I too don't find the term 'bare bones' very useful in the context of choosing when to FIRE, primarily because it just doesn't sound like a lot of fun!

Fun was actually part of my formula in my previous post that used barebones to help determine the fun amount.
Stash * 4% - (BB+taxes) = FUN  :)
Keeping track of your BB multiple doesn't mean limiting yourself to BB spending, but it's an important variable (that is somewhat constant) in the equation.  I don't know how much I'm really going to end up spending in FIRE, so I don't have a specific dollar amount goal for spending, but at least I know what my BB is, so it's an important piece of the formula.  That makes 63X BB very useful as a single metric.  The extra is for discretionary/fun/vacations.  BB itself is my minimum for FI to get by comfortably with no thrills.  I have a spreadsheet that breaks everything down in various time ranges for more specifics by year and month for all the key amounts, which is where it calculates the $30K/yr discretionary spending for vacations and such.  That's where the truly important figures are when it comes to my FIRE planning and considerations.  But it's a lot easier to just say I'm at 63X BB on here for consistency, and BB is what my 25X original yardstick was based on for FI.  As the stash grows, the multiple grows.

Quote
I have a 'default' lifestyle in mind that costs very little, but sholud be very enjoyable indeed.  Pottering around the garden, curling up with a book, cooking delicious food, cycling, walking, etc, etc.

That "default" sounds a lot like barebones to me, assuming the food isn't too outrageously expensive.  I would just call it barebones to keep things simple.
I think that depends a lot on how you define 'barebones' - which doesn't seem to be consistent.  Some people would deem it as the minimum they would be happy with, others the minimum they could survive on.  That latter interpretation is what gives it the negative connotations for me and why I avoid it.

Quote
Quote
I have two potential ways to save up money for the more expensive things - I could work for longer, or I could spend a higher proportion of my days in 'default' mode.  When you're only just above 'default' level, it takes a lot of days in default to save as much as one extra day working.  It probably then makes sense to think 'I'd rather work an extra day for x than have to save up for it for a month'.

I've reread that a few times, but I must be misunderstanding.  For me,  I'm living just a little above barebones (aka default), but I still save 80% by working today with that budget, and I save 80% at the most if I work one day more.  If I don't keep my spending close to barebones, the one more day of work would allow me to save less, not more, than when I'm sticking to barebones.  I don't save any faster by working tomorrow vs. working today.  So it doesn't take me a lot of days with a BB budget to equal one extra day of work.  Each day is the same.  That's where I'm having trouble comparing my situation to your "lot of days in default saving" or "3 or 4 days of saving" vs "one extra day of saving."  I don't see how these days differ for saving if you're still earning the same income and spending about the same.  And "default"/BB spending with the same income should allow you to save more, not less, than ramping up spending and working another day, if that's the alternative to "default" spending.  I'm assuming by one extra day, that you wouldn't reduce spending to LESS than default.  Hmmm

Quote
The more you stash away though, the more you can 'save' per default day and the equation changes.

Regardless of the size of my stash, I still save in the 70% to 80% range of my take home pay.  The equation does change, I might have dropped to 62X BB today with the drop in stocks, plus my homeowners insurance and property tax just went up.  I guess I could always change my living situation to cut on housing costs.
I think I understand your confusion.  I'm not talking about spending more or less whilst working to alter my savings rate, I'm talking about the choice between accruing an extra £x to spend on something specific by a) retiring 1 day later, or b) spending a few post-retirement days very cheaply. 
If your full FIRE budget was only $5 a day more than your default / bare bones, then you would have to spend 40 cheap days post retirement to save up $200.  If retiring 1 day later would earn you that $200, then I would lean strongly towards working the extra day.  OTOH, if your full budget was $50 a day more than your default, then it would only take 4 days to save that $200.  To me, four minimal spend days sounds like a holiday and much preferable to an extra day working.  40 sounds like a bit of a penance.

DreamFIRE

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Re: 2019 fire cohort
« Reply #730 on: May 16, 2018, 08:03:12 PM »
I think I understand your confusion.  I'm not talking about spending more or less whilst working to alter my savings rate, I'm talking about the choice between accruing an extra £x to spend on something specific by a) retiring 1 day later, or b) spending a few post-retirement days very cheaply. 
If your full FIRE budget was only $5 a day more than your default / bare bones, then you would have to spend 40 cheap days post retirement to save up $200.  If retiring 1 day later would earn you that $200, then I would lean strongly towards working the extra day.  OTOH, if your full budget was $50 a day more than your default, then it would only take 4 days to save that $200.  To me, four minimal spend days sounds like a holiday and much preferable to an extra day working.  40 sounds like a bit of a penance.

Yes, that's it.  I was one word away from realizing you were talking about "FIRE" saving / spending.

That actually is similar to some calculations I've done on the OMY (working to 2020 vs 2019) scenario.  I have a OMY document where I figured out how much I'm likely to add to my investments during the OMY on the job plus the amount of money I won't have to drawdown from stash since I'll being paying bills from my job for OMY.  Combining those, I estimate there's a range of my stash differential of $90K to $115K vs. not working OMY.  $115K would be the differential vs. FIREing in 2019 with a 4% FIRE drawdown while $90K would the differential vs. FIREing in 2019 with a drawdown just $350/mo more than my barebones.   The actual number is probably somewhere in between.  I discount investment performance for this comparison since it's an unknown and would benefit or hurt the bulk of my stash in the same way whether I OMY or not.  That differential is approaching 10% of my current stash by working OMY, which will make it difficult to walk away from if I have any increased concerns or if there are any signs of trouble over the next year, and maybe even if there aren't.  I'm trying to take comfort in the fact that my goal is to FIRE sooner (2019) rather than later (2020).

2Birds1Stone

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Re: 2019 fire cohort
« Reply #731 on: May 17, 2018, 10:38:03 AM »
@markbike528CBX, when you repost an updated list I am moving up to June 1, 2019.

If I'm going to pull the plug in 2019, may as well enjoy the damn summer :)

By June 1, I will have maxed out 401k, Roth IRA, and gotten my remaining 4 SS credits (40 total).

SpareChange

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Re: 2019 fire cohort
« Reply #732 on: May 20, 2018, 06:39:46 PM »
Hello all!! I've enjoyed perusing this thread. I'd like to squeeze in here, though I must admit, I'm a poser :). I don't currently plan to FIRE completely, just downshift to PT and keep work simmering on the back burner.   

My workplace and career are very flexible on the number of shifts worked. There's an app we can use to add/trade shifts. Employer doesn't care who works as long as there's coverage, and it's not overtime. I currently plan to continue working FT (at 5-6 days/wk) until my net worth hits at least 300k, and then drop down to a scheduled 16hrs/wk...the minimum needed for health insurance and other bennies. I estimate I'll hit the mark sometime in the spring of 2019. I should be earning 6 wks paid time off a year by then, with 50-60 days sitting in my pto bank. I can easily live on that with room to spare without touching the stash. I can then add shifts occassionally if/when needed for fun stuff. I'll still contribute enough to the 403b to get the match.

No particular desire (yet) to leave career or employer, so I don't perceive working another 10-15 years as a problem. Both are very stable. Also, I don't think I'll be able to do the slow travel thing so much with aging parents. It would take a minimum 5 more years FT to get FIREd, and I don't think that would be the optimal way to go. Just very tired of working FT, and I'm not getting any younger. :).

Anyway, the point of all that is to say that next year is going to be a huge milestone. Probably bigger for me than going from PT to FIREd honestly.

2Birds1Stone

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Re: 2019 fire cohort
« Reply #733 on: May 20, 2018, 08:15:58 PM »
@SpareChange , what do you do?

SpareChange

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Re: 2019 fire cohort
« Reply #734 on: May 20, 2018, 10:32:08 PM »
@SpareChange , what do you do?

I'm an xray tech in a medium-sized hospital.

markbike528CBX

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Re: 2019 fire cohort
« Reply #735 on: Today at 08:03:51 AM »
Most Righteous Alias    Age@fire  Target DateOLY/OMY notes and eventually Date Confirmed
MoneyStacher51Jan-19
PhilB53Jan-19
sui generis41Feb-15-19
zinnie35Feb-19
MissNancyPryor50Mar-19
Roboturner30Mar-19
exit201940Mar-15-19
TartanTallulah55March-31-19moved to 2018 and is back again
EdgemaMar-19
Trifele52April-1-19 WIGLO
HalfStached41Apr-1-19
Luck1241Apr-19
albireo1361May-1-19
Livingthedream5559May-19
cerat0n1aMay-19summer 2018 planned
dude53May-19
SamIAm3829May-19
FIRE 20/20May-19
Pylortes42May-31-19
Odiedog859062May-31-19
DreamFIREJun-1-19
oldtoyotaJun-19
Itchyfeet47Jun-19
Bateaux50Jun-19
Parizade62Jun-21-19
CryingInThePool44Jun-19
powersuitrecall47Jul-19
Enigma39Jul-19
Thedividebyzero45Jul-19
Cornbread OMalley42Aug-19
RetirementDreamingSep-19
Spreadsheet ManSep-27-19
VoteCthulu39Oct-19
trix7643Oct-19
MoMan55Oct-19
2Birds1Stone32Jun-1-19
markbike528CBX55Dec-19 OLY 6-1-2018 at 53.5 but checking in as OP
HBFI38Dec-19
luckyme1345Dec-19
moxieDec-27-19
madamwitty36TBD
Lowerbills40TBD
Chrissy42TBD
GerardTBD
getoutsoon52TBD
ysette938late-19TBD
elaine amj40TBD
IplawyerTBD
ChairmanTBDSemiFire 2018
exit2019TBD-2019

markbike528CBX

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Re: 2019 fire cohort
« Reply #736 on: Today at 08:13:22 AM »
@markbike528CBX, when you repost an updated list I am moving up to June 1, 2019.

If I'm going to pull the plug in 2019, may as well enjoy the damn summer :)

By June 1, I will have maxed out 401k, Roth IRA, and gotten my remaining 4 SS credits (40 total).

@2Birds1Stone, the mention method got my attention.
You might also note that my date is June 1 for the exactly that reason.    I've also taken my vacation (no payout), so I've been off since May 14th, with a two office days left.   

If anyone would like changes or have seen other changes buried in the thread text,  please mention (@) or PM me.

PhilB

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Re: 2019 fire cohort
« Reply #737 on: Today at 10:22:44 AM »
@markbike528CBX I've just noticed that I'm still on the list for Jan 2019.  I pulled my date forward to Oct 2018 a few months ago - but I may end up doing some consulting or 1 day a week part time through most of 2019 if they make me a good enough offer!

Canadian Ben

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Re: 2019 fire cohort
« Reply #738 on: Today at 11:04:01 AM »
@markbike528CBX I'm Aug 12th.