Author Topic: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?  (Read 12842 times)

Beard N Bones

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #100 on: February 14, 2018, 07:46:15 AM »
Americans, so brainwashed that they need drugs, like people thinking they need guns. Youíre only lining the pockets of the drug industry. Human civilization has existed for thousands of years without anti-depressants but now everyone needs them to make it through the day. FFS! Youíve been hoodwinked and most people are too weak and too complicit to admit it.
So we should go back to the old days of just locking people in an insane asylum then? Lobotomy? Just let them kill themselves? Spoiler: no.

Anyone who thinks depression/anxiety=sad/weak and not depressed=happy/strong should probably educate themselves before opening their mouths (or keyboards) on this subject. You have no clue what you are talking about. This is the equivalent of someone up to their eyeballs in consumer debt saying you should buy a new fully loaded F-150.

Okay I'll bite.  You are keeping us all hanging here!  Please enlighten and educate us about depression and anxiety:  its symptomology (how do you define it?), causation (what causes it?), the most effective treatment (what treatments deals with its causation? is it the most cost effective?  what is the long term success rate of it?), and most importantly, how do we best prevent depression/anxiety?!

I'm finding this whole thread cathartic.  I'm sure I'm not the only one!

Jouer

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #101 on: February 14, 2018, 07:54:55 AM »
I said educated *yourself*. I'm not your teacher/doctor.

SimpleCycle

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #102 on: February 14, 2018, 08:05:52 AM »
Americans, so brainwashed that they need drugs, like people thinking they need guns. You’re only lining the pockets of the drug industry. Human civilization has existed for thousands of years without anti-depressants but now everyone needs them to make it through the day. FFS! You’ve been hoodwinked and most people are too weak and too complicit to admit it.
So we should go back to the old days of just locking people in an insane asylum then? Lobotomy? Just let them kill themselves? Spoiler: no.

Anyone who thinks depression/anxiety=sad/weak and not depressed=happy/strong should probably educate themselves before opening their mouths (or keyboards) on this subject. You have no clue what you are talking about. This is the equivalent of someone up to their eyeballs in consumer debt saying you should buy a new fully loaded F-150.

Okay I'll bite.  You are keeping us all hanging here!  Please enlighten and educate us about depression and anxiety:  its symptomology (how do you define it?), causation (what causes it?), the most effective treatment (what treatments deals with its causation? is it the most cost effective?  what is the long term success rate of it?), and most importantly, how do we best prevent depression/anxiety?!

I'm finding this whole thread cathartic.  I'm sure I'm not the only one!

I find your insistence that treatments must deal with a clear causal mechanism to be very naive.  That is not how most of medicine works.  Take high blood pressure - we don't really know what "causes" it, although we do know risk and aggravating factors.  And we have multiple classes of blood pressure medications that are all effective treatments even though they work in different physiological ways, most of which are not related to the "cause" for most patients.

So to insist something is only a treatment if it deals directly with a causal mechanism assumes that a) we know the causal mechanism and b) there aren't effective ways of treating diseases that don't deal directly with the cause.  Neither of those things are true for depression nor for many other medical illnesses.

There is an entire scientific literature on depression and despite claims to the contrary in this thread, much of it is based on randomized controlled trials, the gold standard in medical research.  Rehashing that is outside the scope of anything but like, getting a medical degree or writing a PhD dissertation, so I'm not going to even try since I doubt it would satisfy you anyway.  And the questions you ask have very little to do with whether the depression = weak and non-depression = strong trope is a helpful way to discuss depression.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 08:14:18 AM by SimpleCycle »

SimpleCycle

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #103 on: February 14, 2018, 08:07:22 AM »
Americans, so brainwashed that they need drugs, like people thinking they need guns. Youíre only lining the pockets of the drug industry. Human civilization has existed for thousands of years without anti-depressants but now everyone needs them to make it through the day. FFS! Youíve been hoodwinked and most people are too weak and too complicit to admit it.

There is a respectful way to discuss these issues and this...is not it.  Forum rules still apply.

Zoot

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #104 on: February 14, 2018, 08:11:01 AM »
Quote from: Beard N Bones link=topic=87847.msg1898103#msg1898103
Please enlighten and educate us about depression and anxiety:  its symptomology (how do you define it?), causation (what causes it?), the most effective treatment (what treatments deals with its causation? is it the most cost effective?  what is the long term success rate of it?), and most importantly, how do we best prevent depression/anxiety?!

Here is an article that may help:

https://www.health.harvard.edu/mind-and-mood/what-causes-depression


zoltani

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #105 on: February 14, 2018, 08:19:39 AM »
Isn't over a third of the US population now obese? If only a third of those people suffered from depression as an effect of being obese that practically meets your 13% number right there.

Yeah, only obese people are depressed, alert the medical community you have it figured out!
That's not what I said.

That may be, but I have no idea what you're actually trying to say with that inane post.

The Happy Philosopher

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #106 on: February 14, 2018, 08:26:04 AM »
The answer to this question is probably quite complicated. I think at the core, there are incentives at multiple levels to put people on these drugs, in addition to more off label use.

1. We are a society that likes pills. When we go to the doctor for something we want a treatment.
2. Physicians and other providers are spending less time with patients due to economic pressures (go faster, be more efficient, see more patients). They simply have less time to treat, and depression takes time to work through. It is faster to write a script than to justify to the patient that you are not going to give them a medication and instead try these things.
3. As these medications become more popular docs become more comfortable prescribing them.
4. As more are prescribed people start noticing they work for other things (anxiety, chronic pain, etc.)

These are life saving drugs to many, and there are also many people taking them inappropriately (in my opinion). For many people these drugs get them to a place were they can start doing the real work of managing their emotions in a healthy way, but as many have pointed out, you have to get to some place of reasonable stability before you can start other therapies.

MrDelane

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #107 on: February 14, 2018, 08:26:26 AM »
Americans, so brainwashed that they need drugs, like people thinking they need guns. You’re only lining the pockets of the drug industry. Human civilization has existed for thousands of years without anti-depressants but now everyone needs them to make it through the day. FFS! You’ve been hoodwinked and most people are too weak and too complicit to admit it.

I couldn't agree more.

Human civilization has existed for thousands of years without antibiotics but now everyone needs them just to get over an infection.

Human civilization has existed for thousands of years without anesthetic but now everyone needs them to make it through basic surgery.

Human civilization has existed for thousands of years without Xrays and CT scans but now everyone needs them, not to fix something, but just to figure out what might be wrong with them!

Human civilization has existed for thousands of years without vaccines but now everyone needs them to avoid something they don't even suffer from!  Ridiculous!

We’ve truly been hoodwinked and most people are too weak and too complicit to admit it.





EDITED TO ADD:
Just to be clear, this was meant to be sarcastic.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 10:35:47 AM by MrDelane »

PDXTabs

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #108 on: February 14, 2018, 08:39:35 AM »
MrDelane,

You missed clean drinking water, antimalarials, modern oncology, and antivirals.

Mr. Green

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #109 on: February 14, 2018, 08:52:31 AM »
Isn't over a third of the US population now obese? If only a third of those people suffered from depression as an effect of being obese that practically meets your 13% number right there.

Yeah, only obese people are depressed, alert the medical community you have it figured out!
That's not what I said.

That may be, but I have no idea what you're actually trying to say with that inane post.
I thought it was fairly obvious. Obesity causes a whole raft of health issues. Not only could one be depressed due to his weight, depression can stem from other conditions that arise from obesity.

wenchsenior

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #110 on: February 14, 2018, 08:56:57 AM »
Huh.

Certain threads are just irresistible to the assholes on this board, but I have to admit I didn't expect this thread to be one of them.

Jouer

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #111 on: February 14, 2018, 08:59:37 AM »
Americans, so brainwashed that they need drugs, like people thinking they need guns. Youíre only lining the pockets of the drug industry. Human civilization has existed for thousands of years without anti-depressants but now everyone needs them to make it through the day. FFS! Youíve been hoodwinked and most people are too weak and too complicit to admit it.

I couldn't agree more.

Human civilization has existed for thousands of years without antibiotics but now everyone needs them just to get over an infection.

Human civilization has existed for thousands of years without anesthetic but now everyone needs them to make it through basic surgery.

Human civilization has existed for thousands of years without Xrays and CT scans but now everyone needs them, not to fix something, but just to figure out what might be wrong with them!

Human civilization has existed for thousands of years without vaccines but now everyone needs them to avoid something they don't even suffer from!  Ridiculous!

Weíve truly been hoodwinked and most people are too weak and too complicit to admit it.

And life expectancy has fucking doubled.

Also, we didn't have refrigeration either. I can't believe the sheeple have succumbed to the Big-Fridge lobby and all purchased their own personal refrigeration device. Too weak to salt their fish down on the pier like a real man, amiright? (this is what you sound like)
 

MrDelane

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #112 on: February 14, 2018, 09:02:23 AM »
Too weak to salt their fish down on the pier like a real man, amiright?

This is now my favorite thing I've ever read on this forum.

Warlord1986

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #113 on: February 14, 2018, 09:10:24 AM »
Huh.

Certain threads are just irresistible to the assholes on this board, but I have to admit I didn't expect this thread to be one of them.

The board of shame and comedy is slow so the smug self-righteousness and assholery has to find an outlet somewhere.

It is very obvious some of y'all here have never lived with depression or witnessed anyone else living with depression. You really are lucky.

I'm a red panda

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #114 on: February 14, 2018, 09:21:37 AM »
Americans, so brainwashed that they need drugs, like people thinking they need guns. Youíre only lining the pockets of the drug industry. Human civilization has existed for thousands of years without anti-depressants but now everyone needs them to make it through the day. FFS! Youíve been hoodwinked and most people are too weak and too complicit to admit it.

I couldn't agree more.

Human civilization has existed for thousands of years without antibiotics but now everyone needs them just to get over an infection.

Human civilization has existed for thousands of years without anesthetic but now everyone needs them to make it through basic surgery.

Human civilization has existed for thousands of years without Xrays and CT scans but now everyone needs them, not to fix something, but just to figure out what might be wrong with them!

Human civilization has existed for thousands of years without vaccines but now everyone needs them to avoid something they don't even suffer from!  Ridiculous!

Weíve truly been hoodwinked and most people are too weak and too complicit to admit it.

Civilization may have existed, but individuals haven't survived.  I'm pretty happy for antibiotics, anesthesia, and vaccines.

Of course without being hoodwinked by modern medicine I would have died a few minutes after my birth (from which my mother would have died)- so it all would have been moot for me.


(For the record- I'm not on anti-depressants or anti-anxiety meds. I probably should be, but won't take them since I'm breastfeeding. But even when I stop, I'm not sure I want that diagnosis on my medical records. I don't trust our government or healthcare system.)


« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 09:38:05 AM by iowajes »

MrDelane

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #115 on: February 14, 2018, 09:29:31 AM »
MrDelane,

You missed clean drinking water, antimalarials, modern oncology, and antivirals.

Ha.
What's funny is antimalarials and antivirals were originally on my list, and I deleted before posting bc I felt like it was getting too repetitive.

zoltani

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #116 on: February 14, 2018, 09:52:04 AM »
MrDelane,

You missed clean drinking water, antimalarials, modern oncology, and antivirals.

Ha.
What's funny is antimalarials and antivirals were originally on my list, and I deleted before posting bc I felt like it was getting too repetitive.

Apparently you needed /s on your post

pigpen

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #117 on: February 14, 2018, 09:55:39 AM »
Too weak to salt their fish down on the pier like a real man, amiright?

This is now my favorite thing I've ever read on this forum.

Seconded.

Beard N Bones

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #118 on: February 14, 2018, 10:24:36 AM »
Okay I'll bite.  You are keeping us all hanging here!  Please enlighten and educate us about depression and anxiety:  its symptomology (how do you define it?), causation (what causes it?), the most effective treatment (what treatments deals with its causation? is it the most cost effective?  what is the long term success rate of it?), and most importantly, how do we best prevent depression/anxiety?!

I'm finding this whole thread cathartic.  I'm sure I'm not the only one!

I find your insistence that treatments must deal with a clear causal mechanism to be very naive.  That is not how most of medicine works.  Take high blood pressure - we don't really know what "causes" it, although we do know risk and aggravating factors.  And we have multiple classes of blood pressure medications that are all effective treatments even though they work in different physiological ways, most of which are not related to the "cause" for most patients.

So to insist something is only a treatment if it deals directly with a causal mechanism assumes that a) we know the causal mechanism and b) there aren't effective ways of treating diseases that don't deal directly with the cause.  Neither of those things are true for depression nor for many other medical illnesses.

There is an entire scientific literature on depression and despite claims to the contrary in this thread, much of it is based on randomized controlled trials, the gold standard in medical research.  Rehashing that is outside the scope of anything but like, getting a medical degree or writing a PhD dissertation, so I'm not going to even try since I doubt it would satisfy you anyway.  And the questions you ask have very little to do with whether the depression = weak and non-depression = strong trope is a helpful way to discuss depression.

@SimpleCycle  You are right on the money.  You have quite nicely explained how it is quite uncommon for a medical condition to be fully "cured" or "treated" with one treatment/medicine.  I also hold to that same assumption.  I also agree, treatments don't need to be solely used for dealing with a conditions causation.  Treatments that deal with symptoms can vastly improve a person's quality of life (or in some cases, "save" their life).  And that is great - take advantage of such treatments! 

A few huge issues in healthcare though:
-  unfortunately, in general, people are more concerned about dealing with their symptoms, than deal with the root of their problem
- as previously mentioned, most people have expectations when they see their MD - usually they want a pill/quick fix
- as previously mentioned, most healthcare professionals are happy to give their patients what they are looking for (MD - prescription, oncologist - radiation & chemo, pharmacist - medication, ob-gyn - a c-section, etc)
- it is a ton of work to try to educate people about their bodies and health. 
- Most people don't want to listen to health solutions that take work - they'd rather an easy "fix."  So that encourages a healthcare professional to take the road that is easier - giving the patient what they want even though it may not be the best option for them.
- Many people on this forum will hate hearing this because they think it is conspiracy theory territory - but there is some truth to this:  medications are produced by Big Pharma.  Big Pharma is held accountable to two groups of individuals: 1. their shareholders and 2. the individuals that use their medication.  What drives Big Pharma?  I lean towards - money.  I've never heard of a Big Pharma company research how exercise, or an apple, etc is beneficial to those that partake in it.  Why?  Cause spending a billion dollars on a vegetable or fruit, or on an exercise program, etc. doesn't pay.
- Most people who preach that medication is the only option, are also the ones that insist on double-blind randomized control trials and refuse to listen to anything/anyone else that might question their dogmatic beliefs.  (The opposite is true as well - people who question medication are also going to refuse to listen to "reasonable" or the Medicine-is-the-only-answer group.)  It's hard to find people that have reasonable views - as this thread so eloquently shows!  The pro-medicine likes to shoot arrows at the holistic/alternative medicine, and vice versa.  The anti-vaxxers like to shoot arrows at the pro-vaxxers, and vice versa.  The index-investors like to shoot arrows at the active investors, and vice versa.  The pro-captial punishment crowd shoots arrows at the pro-criminal-rehabers and vice versa.  The pro-gun crowd shoots arrows at the anti-gun group, and vice versa.  People too easily lose their minds and become unreasonable.

Flame away!
FYI: I've got a really good idea of how the medical system and medicine works.  I've worked in the health industry for 10 years.  My brother is a practicing MD.  My mother is a pharmacist.  I've got 5 6 others in my family that work in the healthcare field (from oncology professor, to emergency care nurse, to ob-gyn, to anesthesiologist, etc etc.)   
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 10:41:39 AM by Beard N Bones »

MrDelane

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #119 on: February 14, 2018, 10:32:59 AM »
MrDelane,

You missed clean drinking water, antimalarials, modern oncology, and antivirals.

Ha.
What's funny is antimalarials and antivirals were originally on my list, and I deleted before posting bc I felt like it was getting too repetitive.

Apparently you needed /s on your post

Apologies - I thought it was obvious, but I shouldn't assume.

(I just edited my original post to make it clear)
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 10:36:19 AM by MrDelane »

wenchsenior

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #120 on: February 14, 2018, 10:41:23 AM »
MrDelane,

You missed clean drinking water, antimalarials, modern oncology, and antivirals.

Ha.
What's funny is antimalarials and antivirals were originally on my list, and I deleted before posting bc I felt like it was getting too repetitive.

Apparently you needed /s on your post

Apologies - I thought it was obvious, but I shouldn't assume.

(I just edited my original post to make it clear)

I was annoyed at myself that I posted so close after you, which implied I didn't get your sarcasm.  I did, and it was beautiful.

GuitarStv

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #121 on: February 14, 2018, 10:41:38 AM »
There's a little too much polarization going on in this conversation.

It's possible to question the validity of research/conclusions drawn in psychology without believing that people who are struggling with problems are somehow weak/inferior . . . and without arguing that they don't need help.  You can also do so without romanticizing ancient times.

Antidepressants (for example) help some people, and help them a lot.  However, for an awful lot of people they don't seem to do anything at all (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0087089/), and many come with some serious side effects.  It's important that we don't vilify medication that can help people, but also that we don't deify something that won't work for an awful lot of people in need.

I'm a red panda

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #122 on: February 14, 2018, 10:48:49 AM »
MrDelane,

You missed clean drinking water, antimalarials, modern oncology, and antivirals.

Ha.
What's funny is antimalarials and antivirals were originally on my list, and I deleted before posting bc I felt like it was getting too repetitive.

Apparently you needed /s on your post

Apologies - I thought it was obvious, but I shouldn't assume.

(I just edited my original post to make it clear)

I figured it out after I replied.  I'm tired.

SimpleCycle

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #123 on: February 14, 2018, 10:56:51 AM »
People too easily lose their minds and become unreasonable.

Well, that's for sure.  I think you and I are on the same page though, I just was reading some of your responses with an antagonism that may not have been there.

This is an area of both personal and professional interest for me, so I tend to take it a bit personally, even if I try not to.

wenchsenior

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #124 on: February 14, 2018, 11:17:21 AM »
There's a little too much polarization going on in this conversation.

It's possible to question the validity of research/conclusions drawn in psychology without believing that people who are struggling with problems are somehow weak/inferior . . . and without arguing that they don't need help.  You can also do so without romanticizing ancient times.

Antidepressants (for example) help some people, and help them a lot.  However, for an awful lot of people they don't seem to do anything at all (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0087089/), and many come with some serious side effects.  It's important that we don't vilify medication that can help people, but also that we don't deify something that won't work for an awful lot of people in need.

I agree.  As someone with actual biological (incurable) problems that heighten my risk of depression, and who has experienced 3 major depressive episodes in my lifetime, I have experience with both 'helping myself' by changing diet, exercise, sunlight exposure, therapy which helped me change coping mechanisms AND changed my hormone levels to some degree, and experience with needing real help when my depression was too severe for 1) those types of actions to help ENOUGH for me to live normally; and/or 2) I was too nonfunctional to take action to help myself in any way.

Full disclosure:  I actually have never taken anti-ds, though I suspect they would have greatly helped me when I was experiencing my first 2 depressive episodes in my teens and twenties.   By my third depression, my initial interventions (treating the hormone imbalance directly) allowed me to take additional self help steps and then I climbed out of 'the pit' on my own.  But that was just how my particular body and mind worked on that occasion.  I don't pretend that my 'greater willpower fixed my depression', that would be offensive bullshit.

 I would try antidepressants in a hot second if I ever experience another bad depressive episode, and my usual approach doesn't work.  I also have chronic soft tissue pain (myofascial/fibro type) and I have seriously considered trying anti-ds for that, if not actual depression.  My point is, No one who hasn't experienced severe depression can understand how horrible it is.  No one should have to live like that, and if antidepressants can help, people should by all means try them.  And for many people, 'fixing yourself' is either not possible, or requires major intervention prior to becoming a possibility.

However, I also have experience on the other side of the argument, which is that (unlike when I was young and possibly could have used antidepressants) in the last 5 years or so it seems like EVERY SINGLE DOCTOR wants to hand out prescriptions for antidepressants like fucking candy, even when I see them for physical symptoms that are most likely an unusual presentation of autoimmune disease (of which I have two confirmed already and suspect others may be lurking).

So, despite having two confirmed endocrine disorders AND two confirmed autoimmune diseases, any new physical symptoms I present inevitably result in most doctors offering me antidepressants, which is crazy and frustrating. So far, I've had two regular GPs, a neurologist, and an endo offer these within 15 minutes of meeting me, when I wasn't clinically depressed and was there about physical symptoms. 

My suspicion is that there is indeed SOME percent of anti-ds that are needlessly prescribed, for the following reasons:

1)  straight up sexism...I doubt doctors offer anti-ds so quickly to male patients presenting with mysterious physical ailments;

2) autoimmune diseases are increasing, and most are mysterious and frustrating for doctors and patients, and doctors want to be able to offer SOMETHING when they have no idea how to diagnose or treat;

3) big pharma pushes docs to prescribe them;

4)  doctors figure that since patients suffering from challenging physical symptoms probably are depressed, or at least anxious, why not prescribe them?;

5) doctors are used to patients wanting a 'quick fix' in a pill (unlike me, who has been/is willing to make a lot of lifestyle changes to try to improve my condition).

On the other hand, I think depression that really could benefit from anti-ds is actually underdiagnosed, or the patients refuse to try anti-ds because of weird ideas about 'toughness' or some of the stone age attitudes expressed in this thread.  I can think of several people right off the top of my head in  my family and friend circle who might greatly benefit from trying them, but who deny that they struggle with depression or just don't recognize that how they feel isn't normal.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 11:20:59 AM by wenchsenior »

Beard N Bones

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #125 on: February 14, 2018, 01:07:48 PM »
People too easily lose their minds and become unreasonable.

Well, that's for sure.  I think you and I are on the same page though, I just was reading some of your responses with an antagonism that may not have been there.

This is an area of both personal and professional interest for me, so I tend to take it a bit personally, even if I try not to.

On the same page... I have no doubt.  I also have professional interest in this area (certainly more than 13% of my practice deal with depression/anxiety)- a personal one, not as much.

As far as antagonism, I have plenty.  Antagonism toward:
- lazy patients/clients that don't care about their health (Over 75% of Canadians are considered inactive, over 60% have an unhealthy diet, more than 50% are sedentary [have more than 2hr of screen time/day].  I consider this unacceptable.)
- lazy patients that don't take expert advice (I still give advice/education they don't want to hear, even with 10 years of talking to many deaf ears)
- healthcare professionals of all sorts that don't care (bad/lazy diagnostic skills, poor treatment, poor collaboration & poor communication)
- a society that embraces lazy, quick and instant.  Many of the best things in life require significant time & energy (physical strength, long lasting meaningful relationships, a FIRE money stache, expert knowledge, a healthy family, personal health, etc)
- conflict of interests in the health care system that negatively influences patient care - at an individual practice level, all the way to larger, systemic COIs.
- and finally (as a typical Canadian) arguments/discussions that bring very little value because everyone is screaming they are 100% correct in what they are saying, but very few are listening, learning and changing for the better.  Why yell at someone "you are wrong!" when you don't put any weight behind what you are saying through the presentation of 1. a large body of evidence 2. an individuals expert advice  3. personal experience that the majority can relate to and understand.  (this is Evidence Based Care as described by David Sackett).  Why not have an adult conversation that we are all capable of?

damnedbee

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #126 on: February 14, 2018, 01:40:33 PM »
Part of my work involves fighting to reduce the stigma surrounding mental health conditions, which too often prevents people from seeking appropriate treatment. Based on some of the misinformed, stigmatizing drivel in this thread, I'm feeling pretty good about going to sleep tonight knowing that my job has purpose.

aceyou

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #127 on: February 14, 2018, 01:43:29 PM »
I am currently on one.  Here is my story:

I'm a teacher and coach and husband and parent of a 2 and five year old.  Like I imagine a large % of the members on this forum, I set very high standards for myself and tend to be a workaholic.  But I also want to be a super-dad, and a super-husband. 

It was too much to be awesome at at one time. 

On top of that I've had health issues.  I've always had terrific foot pain, and I pull muscles easily in general...always have.  This fall I started pulling a new muscle every single day.  My body killed.  I couldn't sleep.  I was so anxious that I was having a difficult time functioning. 

Here's what my mind was telling myself:  "You are in trouble.  You are only 34, and you are developing the body of an old man.  You are staching money like crazy, and will be a multimillionaire by age 50...too bad your body will be a piece of shit by that time.  Oh, and you are so busy trying to be an awesome dad/husband/teacher/coach, that YOU CURRENTLY SUCK AT ALL OF THEM". 

One day I went to Aldi to get groceries for the week and I came home with 6 items.  I was too anxious to pick items off the shelf and make decisions, and I came home with basically nothing.  That scared me.

I went to the doctor and told him exactly how I was feeling physically, mentally, and emotionally.  He said that my anxiety and stress were through the roof, and that I had obsessive compulsive tendencies based on what I was telling him.  He suggested a particular medication, and I took it. 

Within a day of taking the medication, my anxiety dropped instantly.  Because I wasn't wound up as tight as a drum, I stopped pulling muscles doing simple things like mowing the lawn. 

In the subsequent months I've started to be more honest about what my priorities are, and have paired down my coaching to reflect my new reality as a dad.  I do yoga now.  I keep my phone/computer out of my bedroom to sleep better.  I drink a smoothie for breakfast and have large salads at lunch.  I am happier and calmer than I've been in a very long time.  I visit my friends more.  I'm more present with my wife and kids.

Now I'm considering calling the doctor and asking him to slowly ramp down the dosage of my medication.  My hope is that by summer, I'll have reached a new normal, will be off medication, and will be happier and healthier than ever. 

I have no desire to stay on medication long term, but I appreciate the benefit that it's been for me. 

Johnez

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #128 on: February 14, 2018, 02:04:10 PM »
Americans, so brainwashed that they need drugs, like people thinking they need guns. Youíre only lining the pockets of the drug industry. Human civilization has existed for thousands of years without anti-depressants but now everyone needs them to make it through the day. FFS! Youíve been hoodwinked and most people are too weak and too complicit to admit it.

When you are born and are able to go through life intact and without malady, it is natural to feel everyone should experience the same. May you never meet the black dog of depression.

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #129 on: February 14, 2018, 06:15:21 PM »
Quote
I couldn't agree more.

Human civilization has existed for thousands of years without antibiotics but now everyone needs them just to get over an infection.

Human civilization has existed for thousands of years without anesthetic but now everyone needs them to make it through basic surgery.

Human civilization has existed for thousands of years without Xrays and CT scans but now everyone needs them, not to fix something, but just to figure out what might be wrong with them!

Human civilization has existed for thousands of years without vaccines but now everyone needs them to avoid something they don't even suffer from!  Ridiculous!

Weíve truly been hoodwinked and most people are too weak and too complicit to admit it.



This was beautiful....



thenextguy

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #130 on: February 14, 2018, 06:47:38 PM »
May you never meet the black dog of depression.

Amen to that. Despite how disrespectful some people are being, I still wouldn't wish depression on anyone.

startingsmall

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #131 on: February 14, 2018, 07:15:38 PM »
I am currently on one.  Here is my story:

I'm a teacher and coach and husband and parent of a 2 and five year old.  Like I imagine a large % of the members on this forum, I set very high standards for myself and tend to be a workaholic.  But I also want to be a super-dad, and a super-husband. 

It was too much to be awesome at at one time. 

On top of that I've had health issues.  I've always had terrific foot pain, and I pull muscles easily in general...always have.  This fall I started pulling a new muscle every single day.  My body killed.  I couldn't sleep.  I was so anxious that I was having a difficult time functioning. 

Here's what my mind was telling myself:  "You are in trouble.  You are only 34, and you are developing the body of an old man.  You are staching money like crazy, and will be a multimillionaire by age 50...too bad your body will be a piece of shit by that time.  Oh, and you are so busy trying to be an awesome dad/husband/teacher/coach, that YOU CURRENTLY SUCK AT ALL OF THEM". 

One day I went to Aldi to get groceries for the week and I came home with 6 items.  I was too anxious to pick items off the shelf and make decisions, and I came home with basically nothing.  That scared me.

I went to the doctor and told him exactly how I was feeling physically, mentally, and emotionally.  He said that my anxiety and stress were through the roof, and that I had obsessive compulsive tendencies based on what I was telling him.  He suggested a particular medication, and I took it. 

Within a day of taking the medication, my anxiety dropped instantly.  Because I wasn't wound up as tight as a drum, I stopped pulling muscles doing simple things like mowing the lawn. 

In the subsequent months I've started to be more honest about what my priorities are, and have paired down my coaching to reflect my new reality as a dad.  I do yoga now.  I keep my phone/computer out of my bedroom to sleep better.  I drink a smoothie for breakfast and have large salads at lunch.  I am happier and calmer than I've been in a very long time.  I visit my friends more.  I'm more present with my wife and kids.

Now I'm considering calling the doctor and asking him to slowly ramp down the dosage of my medication.  My hope is that by summer, I'll have reached a new normal, will be off medication, and will be happier and healthier than ever. 

I have no desire to stay on medication long term, but I appreciate the benefit that it's been for me.

Ummm.... wow. Thank you for this post. My life is pretty much the "before" picture you painted.... work 40 hrs/wk at my FT job, 10ish hrs/wk on my side hustle, lead my daughter's Girl Scout troop, involved in church (some by choice and some for appearance's sake - husband is a pastor), and try to be a decent mom/wife.

I'm like a ticking timebomb these days. The slightest delay or disruption makes me lose my temper. I know the big fix is probably to take something (or a few things) off my plate, but maybe I should consider meds in the meantime.

Thank you for sharing your story. Sometimes it helps to see your own life through a different perspective.

palebluedot

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #132 on: February 14, 2018, 08:34:32 PM »
Interesting topic Ė

+1 to a lot of what other posters mentioned: decreased stigma/increased willingness to seek treatment for mental illness, unique and new psychosocial stressors like social media/cyberbullying/etc, and lifestyle patterns that exacerbate illness and poor health such as poor diet (and itís associated chronic illness, which in an of itself can cause depression) and terrible sleep health (sleep deprivation/poor sleep habits are one of the top risk factors for depression).  But I would also add systemic social isolation to the list. Social isolation is often talked about by psychologists and researchers as a big contributor to poor health and depression but we rarely think about it in our own lives because it is the new normal.

Many middle class Americans are more socially isolated than ever before. This is due to huge social shifts in how we live our lives, including but not limited to: the breakup of the multigenerational family unit into separate households, the globalization of family and family members routinely moving far away from each other and their hometown friends/community, young adults attending colleges far from home and making great friendships there Ė only to watch all those friends scatter around the globe upon graduation, frequent job hopping in young professionals so that they never make long lasting friendships/communities in their workplaces, two-career couple lifestyles which leave entire neighborhoods vacant during the daylight hoursÖthe list goes on and on. Worse, all of these things frequently occur simultaneously for many of us. It isnít uncommon to live far from family, have few friends locally, not really have anyone at work you can socialize with, AND live in a neighborhood where no one ever seems to be around, all at the same time. Parents have it really rough because they are expected to raise children in almost completely isolated nuclear units most of the time. There are no longer grandparents and aunties and uncles living in the same house or neighborhood to help ease the burden of childcare or just be there to talk and provide much needed adult interaction on a daily basis. Making friends as an adult in this environment can feel damn near impossible too, and you will hear many people lament that making friends as an adult is harder and more awkward than dating.

I am a SAHM and because of that, I find that I notice social isolation a lot more than other people might. It used to be the norm to live your daily life Ė hour by hour Ė surrounded by friends, family, neighbors, extended relatives, etc. The idea of privacy was a joke. Everyone was always up in each otherís business because everyone lived in the same place and rarely left (which also caused its own huge mess of societal problems/poor treatment of anyone who was different/etc). But now the norm is to live your daily life by yourself and with your partner and kids, with occasional visits/playdates/holiday gatherings/etc as stand ins for ďappropriate socialization.Ē Most of us have only a "wave hello" relationship with our neighbors, rather than anything resembling a real friendship. We might have a few good friends, but too often they move away for new educational or career opportunities elsewhere, and Face-timing with them every now and then just isn't going to replace day to day interaction.

Humans were not meant to live alone...it messes with us, deeply.I frequently wonder if many of the people nowadays with mild-moderate clinical depression are actually just feeling the effects of this systemic loneliness and isolation, but because this type of life is considered normal, no one identifies it as the problem and instead describe their moods as sadness/numbness/lack of fulfillment/etc. So they go to the doctor and the doctor confirms that yes, they are not happy and yes, they need help. But since there is no obvious social problem to hone in on as the reason for their disorder (like a death, divorce, job loss, etc), they are given a pill to help control their moods better because the reason why the person is sad is a mystery. Systemic problems frequently manifest as individual ďmysteriesĒ when in reality they are just the effects of a wide scale problem that is so all-encompassing no one actually even realizes it is a problem.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I've never dealt with severe depression (slight depression as a teen and early 20s when I was dealing with skin issues and socializing) so learning from each side has been helpful. I recently watched this video by someone who talks about his experience with depression:

http://bigthink.com/videos/johann-hari-the-best-science-says-depression-is-a-social-ill-not-an-individual-flaw

MrThatsDifferent

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #133 on: February 15, 2018, 03:54:00 AM »
Americans, so brainwashed that they need drugs, like people thinking they need guns. Youíre only lining the pockets of the drug industry. Human civilization has existed for thousands of years without anti-depressants but now everyone needs them to make it through the day. FFS! Youíve been hoodwinked and most people are too weak and too complicit to admit it.
So we should go back to the old days of just locking people in an insane asylum then? Lobotomy? Just let them kill themselves? Spoiler: no.

Anyone who thinks depression/anxiety=sad/weak and not depressed=happy/strong should probably educate themselves before opening their mouths (or keyboards) on this subject. You have no clue what you are talking about. This is the equivalent of someone up to their eyeballs in consumer debt saying you should buy a new fully loaded F-150.

I never said that depression equals weak. I said weak people canít admit that they have been duped and turned into drug addicts by drug companies who care only about your money. How different are anit-depressants from alcohol or cigarette self-medication? Those companies have pumped billions into making people addicts who believe there is no other way to treat problems. And people are getting defensive because no one wants to admit they have been turned into an addict. There are a myriad number of ways to treat depression without turning to drugs. Odd though that countries without such strong drug lobbies donít seem to see the same levels of anti-depressant use. Are those people less depressed? Is there something about living in the greatest country on earth that cause higher levels of depression that necessitate drugs?  No different than all the kids now put on drugs to deal with ADHD.  This isnít about sick people needing drugs, itís about rich drug companies doing everything in there power to feel vital to people. Drugs, guns and sugaróthe great con killing America. You wanna know why your health insurance is so high, drug companies. And we keep taking the pills and attack anyone who holds up the mirror.

MrThatsDifferent

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #134 on: February 15, 2018, 04:06:27 AM »
Americans, so brainwashed that they need drugs, like people thinking they need guns. Youíre only lining the pockets of the drug industry. Human civilization has existed for thousands of years without anti-depressants but now everyone needs them to make it through the day. FFS! Youíve been hoodwinked and most people are too weak and too complicit to admit it.

When you are born and are able to go through life intact and without malady, it is natural to feel everyone should experience the same. May you never meet the black dog of depression.

What? Really? What human on earth hasnít experienced depression? Do I need to talk about the awful things that happened to me at age 5 and continued for 8 years or the multiple suicide attempts or withdrawalimg from friends and family after various tragedies? We could hang a list of why our lives have been utter shit at one point or another, does that mean I have to take anti-depressants to deal with it all? Sorry. I donít do those drugs. To many itís a money trap and endless pit of addiction that Iím not interested in. Doesnít make me happier per se but if I did start using Iíd just admit Iíd become a drug addict to numb my pain and Someone else is getting rich off my unhappiness.

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #135 on: February 15, 2018, 05:07:57 AM »
Quote from: MrThatsDifferent link=topic=87847.msg1899231#msg1899231
What? Really? What human on earth hasnít experienced depression? Do I need to talk about the awful things that happened to me at age 5 and continued for 8 years or the multiple suicide attempts or withdrawalimg from friends and family after various tragedies? We could hang a list of why our lives have been utter shit at one point or another, does that mean I have to take anti-depressants to deal with it all? Sorry. I donít do those drugs. To many itís a money trap and endless pit of addiction that Iím not interested in. Doesnít make me happier per se but if I did start using Iíd just admit Iíd become a drug addict to numb my pain and Someone else is getting rich off my unhappiness.

Clinical depression isn't the same as being sad, or as experiencing grief, or as working through trauma.  You are right--probably every human on earth has experienced sadness or grief or trauma.  But not every human on earth has experienced true clinical depression.

Traumatic experiences do not always lead to clinical depression, and clinical depression does not always result from traumatic experiences. 

I have experienced sadness and grief and the aftermath of traumatic experiences, and I have also experienced what was probably un-diagnosed clinical depression.  The difference for me was that when I was sad or grieving, I knew why I was crying or experiencing painful emotions, and could rationally see a way to work through those and get to the other side of the sadness.  When I was experiencing clinical depression, I would start crying for no reason at all, and there seemed to be no end in sight, no way out of the darkness.  I remember one experience during that time when I had to excuse myself from a grad school seminar classroom because the world was a black hole and I had tears streaming down my face, which I could not stop and for which I could identify no discernible reason. 

Anti-depressants do not turn sadness into happiness.  They help with the chemical imbalance in the brain that leads to experiences like the one above.



FrugalToque

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #137 on: February 15, 2018, 06:49:53 AM »
Americans, so brainwashed that they need drugs, like people thinking they need guns. Youíre only lining the pockets of the drug industry. Human civilization has existed for thousands of years without anti-depressants but now everyone needs them to make it through the day. FFS! Youíve been hoodwinked and most people are too weak and too complicit to admit it.

It's one thing to argue that anti-depressants are over-prescribed, that trying to get someone in a depressive state to a good hard workout involving dumbbells and barbells (MMM's go-to prescription for all medical problems) is a good idea.

It's another to suggest all people suffering from mental problems are weak and brainwashed.  People used to suffer from mental problems all the time.  We just dismissed and ignored them and told their families not to get them so angry.

Toque.

aceyou

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #138 on: February 15, 2018, 07:43:42 AM »
Americans, so brainwashed that they need drugs, like people thinking they need guns. Youíre only lining the pockets of the drug industry. Human civilization has existed for thousands of years without anti-depressants but now everyone needs them to make it through the day. FFS! Youíve been hoodwinked and most people are too weak and too complicit to admit it.
So we should go back to the old days of just locking people in an insane asylum then? Lobotomy? Just let them kill themselves? Spoiler: no.

Anyone who thinks depression/anxiety=sad/weak and not depressed=happy/strong should probably educate themselves before opening their mouths (or keyboards) on this subject. You have no clue what you are talking about. This is the equivalent of someone up to their eyeballs in consumer debt saying you should buy a new fully loaded F-150.

I never said that depression equals weak. I said weak people canít admit that they have been duped and turned into drug addicts by drug companies who care only about your money. How different are anit-depressants from alcohol or cigarette self-medication? Those companies have pumped billions into making people addicts who believe there is no other way to treat problems. And people are getting defensive because no one wants to admit they have been turned into an addict. There are a myriad number of ways to treat depression without turning to drugs. Odd though that countries without such strong drug lobbies donít seem to see the same levels of anti-depressant use. Are those people less depressed? Is there something about living in the greatest country on earth that cause higher levels of depression that necessitate drugs?  No different than all the kids now put on drugs to deal with ADHD.  This isnít about sick people needing drugs, itís about rich drug companies doing everything in there power to feel vital to people. Drugs, guns and sugaróthe great con killing America. You wanna know why your health insurance is so high, drug companies. And we keep taking the pills and attack anyone who holds up the mirror.

I've found them to be quite different.  While I was going through my very difficult time this fall, I would have a drink after dinner...which has been my routine for many years.  It did NOT reduce my anxiety, it did not help me sleep better, it did not make me feel more calm, it did not do any of the things necessary to bring me to baseline of "normal functioning". 

I have not been duped and this is not turning me into a drug addict.   It's a short-term way for me to hit the reset button so I can more easily make long-term lifestyle changes. 

The medication I took helped me sleep, helped me be more calm, reduced my anxiety.  Once the anxiety levels were reduced and my sleep increased, I could more easily make positive changes that would be LONG TERM SOLUTIONS.  Improved diet, bedtime routines, exercise, etc. 

aceyou

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #139 on: February 15, 2018, 07:58:58 AM »
I am currently on one.  Here is my story:

I'm a teacher and coach and husband and parent of a 2 and five year old.  Like I imagine a large % of the members on this forum, I set very high standards for myself and tend to be a workaholic.  But I also want to be a super-dad, and a super-husband. 

It was too much to be awesome at at one time. 

On top of that I've had health issues.  I've always had terrific foot pain, and I pull muscles easily in general...always have.  This fall I started pulling a new muscle every single day.  My body killed.  I couldn't sleep.  I was so anxious that I was having a difficult time functioning. 

Here's what my mind was telling myself:  "You are in trouble.  You are only 34, and you are developing the body of an old man.  You are staching money like crazy, and will be a multimillionaire by age 50...too bad your body will be a piece of shit by that time.  Oh, and you are so busy trying to be an awesome dad/husband/teacher/coach, that YOU CURRENTLY SUCK AT ALL OF THEM". 

One day I went to Aldi to get groceries for the week and I came home with 6 items.  I was too anxious to pick items off the shelf and make decisions, and I came home with basically nothing.  That scared me.

I went to the doctor and told him exactly how I was feeling physically, mentally, and emotionally.  He said that my anxiety and stress were through the roof, and that I had obsessive compulsive tendencies based on what I was telling him.  He suggested a particular medication, and I took it. 

Within a day of taking the medication, my anxiety dropped instantly.  Because I wasn't wound up as tight as a drum, I stopped pulling muscles doing simple things like mowing the lawn. 

In the subsequent months I've started to be more honest about what my priorities are, and have paired down my coaching to reflect my new reality as a dad.  I do yoga now.  I keep my phone/computer out of my bedroom to sleep better.  I drink a smoothie for breakfast and have large salads at lunch.  I am happier and calmer than I've been in a very long time.  I visit my friends more.  I'm more present with my wife and kids.

Now I'm considering calling the doctor and asking him to slowly ramp down the dosage of my medication.  My hope is that by summer, I'll have reached a new normal, will be off medication, and will be happier and healthier than ever. 

I have no desire to stay on medication long term, but I appreciate the benefit that it's been for me.

Ummm.... wow. Thank you for this post. My life is pretty much the "before" picture you painted.... work 40 hrs/wk at my FT job, 10ish hrs/wk on my side hustle, lead my daughter's Girl Scout troop, involved in church (some by choice and some for appearance's sake - husband is a pastor), and try to be a decent mom/wife.

I'm like a ticking timebomb these days. The slightest delay or disruption makes me lose my temper. I know the big fix is probably to take something (or a few things) off my plate, but maybe I should consider meds in the meantime.

Thank you for sharing your story. Sometimes it helps to see your own life through a different perspective.

Hang in there.  Do consider speaking with a doctor.  One thing that helped me was tracking things like my moods, my sleep patterns each night, my habits, etc.  I believe that helped the doctor prescribe the correct medication to help me out.  From conversations I've now had with several other individuals, it appears I got a bit lucky that my first medication helped so much.  Often it takes a few times to find the right med and dosage.  So hang in there if you go that route and it doesn't immediately help.

And regardless of what you do, good luck to you and never hesitate to seek help and tell others how you feel.  I am a prideful person, and it took a long time for me to admit that I'm not superman.  I've likely had unhealthy levels of anxiety for much of my adult life, and just plowed through it.  Now it's to the point where I'm actually THANKFUL that I got so bad.  I thought my anxiety levels for the last 10 years were just normal, because it's how I always felt.  Boy was I wrong...there's a whole world of calmness out there and I had no idea.  Did you know that it's actually not normal to have 7 different thoughts racing through your had simultaneously all day and night long?!?!  As it turns out, it's possible to just focus on one thing at a time calmly and work through the day happily, and it's really nice:)

Good luck!

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #140 on: February 15, 2018, 08:52:49 AM »
Aceyou, thanks for sharing your story. I've found that meditation has helped me with racing thoughts and ruminating. The thoughts don't necessarily go away but they do just sort of become background noise.

I like to spend some time sitting still and doing nothing, it's a lost art these days. If you don't spend some time not thinking everyday all you can think are thoughts.

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #141 on: February 15, 2018, 09:02:12 AM »
Americans, so brainwashed that they need drugs, like people thinking they need guns. Youíre only lining the pockets of the drug industry. Human civilization has existed for thousands of years without anti-depressants but now everyone needs them to make it through the day. FFS! Youíve been hoodwinked and most people are too weak and too complicit to admit it.

It's one thing to argue that anti-depressants are over-prescribed, that trying to get someone in a depressive state to a good hard workout involving dumbbells and barbells (MMM's go-to prescription for all medical problems) is a good idea.

It's another to suggest all people suffering from mental problems are weak and brainwashed.  People used to suffer from mental problems all the time.  We just dismissed and ignored them and told their families not to get them so angry.

Toque.

Interestingly, there is evidence that exercise is a good treatment for depression.  Since I wasn't willing to take medication, that is what I am doing. But like taking a pill everyday, I have to exercise 3-4 days a week. I log it and show it to my therapist. I have to show compliance with the treatment. It has to be regimented. And when I miss workouts, I can tell in my mood and ability to function. 

Someone in a much worse depressive state (mine is a weird mix of grief turned depression and severe anxiety) might not be able to DO that. It takes motivation to want to fix the problem. It also takes a lot of time, time that I can't spend with my daughter which is already extremely limited, and for me, it costs more than the medication would (because I wasn't sticking to it at home; I need to show up at a gym where someone is expecting me).  Which is why pills are more popular.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2018, 09:08:18 AM by iowajes »

mm1970

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #142 on: February 15, 2018, 10:13:25 AM »
May you never meet the black dog of depression.

Amen to that. Despite how disrespectful some people are being, I still wouldn't wish depression on anyone.
I watched my mother deal with depression in an ever-worsening spiral for over 10 years.  She tried to get help, tried some drugs, but didn't really "believe" in them.  In my rural Catholic home town, you deal with your own issues and she was ashamed.

So instead she started self-medicating with alcohol and it killed her in her 60s.  She never met my younger son, died before I could tell her I was pregnant.  Yay.

(Also: the depression seemed to start coinciding with menopause, so yeah, it's making me very nervous.)

MrThatsDifferent

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #143 on: February 15, 2018, 10:31:49 AM »
You guys are right and Iím being way too flippant for this topic and Iím obviously not getting my point across, most likely due to anger at how Iíve seen anti-depressants and the over prescribing affect too many close to me. Clearly, anti depressants have intrinsic value, they arenít placebos. My point is that for many, they have been prescribed as a knee jerk reaction and as the easiest solution, as well as a profitable one. A large number, around a third continue taking the pills without seeing a health professional to determine if they should continue taking them. Many are prescribed without spending time in therapy or counseling to work through their depression. And yes, I get he chemical imbalance side, but sometimes this overused as a justification. Compare two societies, one that has a high use of these drugs, one that doesnít: are we saying that the one that doesnít has a population that does not have chemical imbalances on the scale of the former? If so, whatís causing the higher rates of chemical imbalances? Diet, air or water? There are so many factors to look at and itís challenging because there are legitimate cases of need and there are people who present, but are given the easy way by lazy medical professionals. Clearly this cuts to close to the bone for many of us and my sincere apologies to those Iíve offended.

dougules

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #144 on: February 15, 2018, 11:20:38 AM »
I think people are getting wrapped up in two separate sides of this argument. 

Are drug companies having way more influence on the FDA than they should?  Definitely.  Are doctors too quick to go to medication?  Quite possibly.

But you could say the same for several conditions like diabetes, high cholesterol, infections, high blood pressure, etc., etc. Calling out antidepressants specifically means you are not treating depression as something equal to those issues. 

It's hard for people to wrap their mind around mental disorders.  We really want to believe we're in total control of our own minds, but anybody that's learning to manage a mental disorder can tell you it's much more complicated than that. 

golden1

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #145 on: February 15, 2018, 12:17:12 PM »
Quote
How different are anit-depressants from alcohol or cigarette self-medication?

This is so fucking ignorant I donít know where to start.

Alcohol is a depressant. Nicotine is a stimulant.  SSRIís are neither.  They block the serotonin receptors in the brain.  This does not make you euphoric or alter your judgement. 

Do SSRIís have their problems? Yes, of course.  But they arenít addictive.  I have gone on and off Prozac several times in my life.  It helped me get out of a depression and continue to function, and allowed me to develop good habits in order to improve my mental health in the longer term.


aceyou

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #146 on: February 15, 2018, 01:02:28 PM »
You guys are right and Iím being way too flippant for this topic and Iím obviously not getting my point across, most likely due to anger at how Iíve seen anti-depressants and the over prescribing affect too many close to me. Clearly, anti depressants have intrinsic value, they arenít placebos. My point is that for many, they have been prescribed as a knee jerk reaction and as the easiest solution, as well as a profitable one. A large number, around a third continue taking the pills without seeing a health professional to determine if they should continue taking them. Many are prescribed without spending time in therapy or counseling to work through their depression. And yes, I get he chemical imbalance side, but sometimes this overused as a justification. Compare two societies, one that has a high use of these drugs, one that doesnít: are we saying that the one that doesnít has a population that does not have chemical imbalances on the scale of the former? If so, whatís causing the higher rates of chemical imbalances? Diet, air or water? There are so many factors to look at and itís challenging because there are legitimate cases of need and there are people who present, but are given the easy way by lazy medical professionals. Clearly this cuts to close to the bone for many of us and my sincere apologies to those Iíve offended.

Yup, when worded that way I definitely agree.  And don't worry about getting flippant...I have a tendency to do the same thing, just over different topics:)

Prescription medication, in general, is overridden with misuse in this country in ways that are costly to tax payers, and harmful for millions of americans. 

I'm glad it's available for us when we NEED it, but I wish there were a better way to regulate it and identify what the true needs are.

aceyou

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #147 on: February 15, 2018, 01:05:24 PM »
Aceyou, thanks for sharing your story. I've found that meditation has helped me with racing thoughts and ruminating. The thoughts don't necessarily go away but they do just sort of become background noise.

I like to spend some time sitting still and doing nothing, it's a lost art these days. If you don't spend some time not thinking everyday all you can think are thoughts.

I'm so glad meditation has been helpful for you also.  Yeah, I take things much slower lately, but I am more productive then ever.  Interesting how slowing down creating space for yourself helps things fall into place. 

PeteD01

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #148 on: February 16, 2018, 04:25:06 AM »
Lots of strong opinions in this thread.
Here is an article about clinical trials of depression treatment which may help to calm things down a bit:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4592645/

Pay attention to Figure 1.:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4592645/figure/fig01/

The closest to patients not seeking help is the "waiting list" bar.
The difference between the placebo and treatment effects is the specific effect of what was in the pills or the disease specific content of the psychotherapy.

The conclusions one can draw from this are the following:


1) Seeking help and receiving a sugar pill is not much inferior to medication or psychotherapy  - but this option is not available outside randomized clinical trials.

2) Psychotherapy alone is as effective as medication - but, given the actual availability and affordability of state of the art psychotherapy, is not an option for many patients

3) Medication alone is as effective as psychotherapy - this is the only economically feasible option for many patients

4) Combination therapy (medication and psychotherapy) is marginally more effective than each treatment alone - but suffers from the the same constraints as psychotherapy alone


I wish to emphasize that the data was compiled from non-industry clinical trials, and yet, the interpretation leaves little room to a physician but to prescribe antidepressant medication to the vast majority of depression sufferers - no need to invoke a conspiracy of any sort.


Of course, things are a lot more complicated the closer one looks; particularly modern types of cognitive behavioral therapy appear to have an edge in preventing relapse. Which is not really a surprise.

I am a retired physician but none of this is medical advice. If you suffer from depression, the first thing to do is seeking professional help. If there is anything that we know for sure, it is that seeking professional help is vastly superior to suffering alone.

« Last Edit: February 16, 2018, 11:47:03 PM by PeteD01 »

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #149 on: February 16, 2018, 05:48:22 AM »
I think a lot of folks have a problem with people taking medication to control depressive disorders, because 1.) We've been told that chemicals are evil, even though everything in the world except for energy is made from chemicals and 2.) People with depression show no physical symptoms of the disorder since it's an illness of the mind and not of the body. As I've struggled with major depressive disorder throughout my life, people usually told me to just get over it and then tell me I was lazy, which is kind of like telling someone with diabetes that they should get over their illness and stop making excuses.

I can tell you anecdotally that taking medication has changed my life dramatically, which people who've read my journal have probably noticed. I wish I had been able to get the help I needed earlier in my life, but unfortunately the healthcare system in the USA is woefully inadequate.