Author Topic: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?  (Read 14123 times)

Adam Zapple

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13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« on: February 12, 2018, 10:28:52 AM »
I have my own theories on this, but what are yours?  I recognize that within this figure are many who are taking an anti-depressant for an off-label use.

http://time.com/4900248/antidepressants-depression-more-common/

Emerald

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2018, 10:33:40 AM »
They are clinically depressed and seeking appropriate treatment.

wenchsenior

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2018, 10:40:44 AM »
I also suspect there are many additional people who might benefit from antidepressants who are not taking them. 

Beard N Bones

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2018, 10:44:38 AM »
I have my own theories on this, but what are yours?  I recognize that within this figure are many who are taking an anti-depressant for an off-label use.

http://time.com/4900248/antidepressants-depression-more-common/

Simple answer:  They are physically, or mentally, or both physically & mentally unhealthy.

Mezzie

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2018, 10:47:13 AM »
The stigma of mental illness has decreased, so I imagine more people are willing to get help.

v8rx7guy

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2018, 10:53:32 AM »
I think social media has a lot to do with it.  Constantly seeing everyone's "highlight reel" can make you feel depressed about your own life.

scissorbill

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2018, 10:56:12 AM »
I wonder if our lives are too easy.  We have to make an effort to get enough exercise.  Cheap, processed, addictive foods are all around us and they can't help one's mental health. 

netskyblue

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2018, 10:58:52 AM »
The stigma of mental illness has decreased, so I imagine more people are willing to get help.

This.  I'm finally going to see my Dr. next week for what I suspect may be an anxiety disorder after suffering sporadically most of my adult life.  I've finally gotten to the point of "maybe I don't HAVE to be this way." 

GuitarStv

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2018, 11:01:22 AM »
The field of clinical psychology is not a science (although it's sold to many as such).  The DSM-5 is a listing used for diagnosis of commonly accepted mental illnesses, and entries/omissions from it are not scientifically backed . . . they change based upon social norms and popular trend.  When you cannot clearly define what a 'normal' state is, it's difficult to know when the drugs you're using to treat someone for being abnormal have run their course and the patient is healed.

undercover

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2018, 11:09:54 AM »
The field of clinical psychology is not a perfect * science (although it's sold to many as such).

*The way I see it, though I agree it is more of an art at this point. We simply don't know enough enough about the brain to confidently predict how to give the proper treatments and then how long those treatments would take. I think we're at an awkward time in history where we realize basically everything is fixable but we just don't know enough yet to properly fix it, so we put band-aids on for now.

dougules

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2018, 11:11:51 AM »
I think it is partly that more people are getting the help they've needed all along, but it may also be another one of the many diseases that are being worsened by bad diet, lack of exercise, and stress. 

mm1970

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2018, 11:14:41 AM »
Sleep and peri-menopause?  I went to the dr last year complaining of some typical per-menopause symptoms, like insomnia and other issues.

He gave me a list of several things that could help it.  I don't remember them all. 
- hormones (I went back on the pill)
- low dose of anti-depressents
- marathon training (burns off the available adrenaline)

As I had been on the pill before and was already half-marathon training (with zero interest in a full), I chose the pill.

big_slacker

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2018, 11:22:46 AM »
I think there are a bunch of issues why people today are dealing with low/mid level depression:

Poor diet
Poor sleep (subcategories-Screens before bed, cultural bragging about sleeping less, mega caffeine use)
Lack of connection with the environment we're evolved to AKA being in a box instead of outside (subcategories-Lack of physical activity, vitamin D deficiency)
Media (subcategories-Social media highlight reels, FOMO, negative 'news')
The constantly moving target consumerist lifestyle vs real purpose
Lack of human connection

Add in that many family doctors and psychologists just put people on drugs as a first step and it's not surprising to see this.

damnedbee

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2018, 11:30:05 AM »
They are clinically depressed and seeking appropriate treatment.

This. It's time we started treating mental illnesses with the same importance we assign to physical illness. The stigma has got to end.

Nate R

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2018, 11:34:23 AM »
I think there are a bunch of issues why people today are dealing with low/mid level depression:

Poor diet
Poor sleep (subcategories-Screens before bed, cultural bragging about sleeping less, mega caffeine use)
Lack of connection with the environment we're evolved to AKA being in a box instead of outside (subcategories-Lack of physical activity, vitamin D deficiency)
Media (subcategories-Social media highlight reels, FOMO, negative 'news')
The constantly moving target consumerist lifestyle vs real purpose
Lack of human connection

Add in that many family doctors and psychologists just put people on drugs as a first step and it's not surprising to see this.

I agree with much of the above.

Zikoris

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2018, 11:34:51 AM »
I suspect they're probably over-prescribed. I think there are a lot of people who have actual depression and need them, but I also think there are a lot of people who feel shitty because their lives just suck, who would be better off working towards making their lives not suck.

kimmarg

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2018, 11:38:18 AM »
I also think there are a lot of people who feel shitty because their lives just suck, who would be better off working towards making their lives not suck.

Turns out it's really really hard to make your life not suck when you're crying all the time. Anti-depressants can help get you to a point where you can function well enough to make other changes.

startingsmall

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2018, 11:47:51 AM »
Honestly, I'm surprised the number is that low! I guess my perception is skewed due to working in a field with a lot of mental health issues (veterinary medicine), but >50% of my coworkers admit to being on antidepressants +/- anxiolytics.

Beard N Bones

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2018, 11:50:20 AM »
I have my own theories on this, but what are yours?  I recognize that within this figure are many who are taking an anti-depressant for an off-label use.

http://time.com/4900248/antidepressants-depression-more-common/

Simple answer:  They are physically, or mentally, or both physically & mentally unhealthy.

Furthermore, low level antidepressants are also used to treat chronic pain or "nerve pain." And nerve pain/chronic pain is common. Therefore, antidepressants are often prescribed.

But the best answer to the OPs original post is... People are physically and mentally unhealthy. That folks, is the bottom line.

netskyblue

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2018, 11:59:09 AM »
The thing is - a lot of people aren't depressed because their life sucks.  They sought treatment because they experience overwhelming depression or anxiety DESPITE their life NOT sucking.  It's the doctor's job to determine whether their condition is chemical or situational. 

I have a great life.  MOST of the time I'm happy or at least content.  Every now and then I have a crippling anxiety episode that renders me unable to function normally for days at a time.  It comes out of nowhere, and to the best of my knowledge isn't triggered by any specific thing. 

Why haven't I sought treatment?  Because most of the time I feel normal.  Unless I'm in the middle of an episode (where I'm functionally unable to make an appointment anyway), I feel perfectly fine.  I guess I've always felt stupid and ashamed to make an appointment to talk to my doctor about "something that sometimes happens, but isn't happening right now."

After enough pushing from friends and acquaintances that this is a thing that doctors are used to dealing with, that I'm not going to be labeled a fraud or a freak, I've decided to take that step and consult with my GP about whether a psychiatrist referral, and potentially medication, would be the right step.

KMMK

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2018, 12:03:38 PM »
I suspect they're probably over-prescribed. I think there are a lot of people who have actual depression and need them, but I also think there are a lot of people who feel shitty because their lives just suck, who would be better off working towards making their lives not suck.

This point is a reason I finally went on meds for anxiety. I had done all the life changing things, and I was still having difficulty. So then it was clear that it wasn't just my environment.

Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2018, 12:08:37 PM »
Atomized communities
Less cohesive families
Make work jobs
Soul killing commutes
Financial pressure/keeping up with the Jones
Bad environments (too little greenery, too much ugly architecture)
Too much TV
Pervasive nihilism of the 21st century
Processed food
Not enough exercise
Pollutants
Not enough, poor quality sleep

Those all spring to mind as factors for depression. It's surprising more people aren't turning to anti-depressants to cope. Also, just spitballing here, not sure what Europe or Asia are like in this regard, but it seems to be an American cultural thing that you have to be a mother fucking Pollyanna all the time, otherwise you're considered dysfunctional somehow.

Mezzie

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2018, 12:20:58 PM »
My life absolutely does not suck, but I still have MDD and GAD. I also have chronic pain. The anti-depressant I'm on was actually prescribed to treat the chronic pain, but it had the nice side effect of stabilizing my mood a bit. I did well with CBT pre-meds and still trust that treatment.

The problem with the word "depression" is that it can refer to both situational depression (grief, loss, life sucks... actual events that it makes sense to be bummed about) and the more pernicious kind that, despite some effective treatments, is still baffling in many ways. I think "melancholy" is a better word for the latter (it is what it used to be called), but I have no power over that.

partgypsy

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2018, 12:42:58 PM »
I can def think of people who need to be on something, who are not. Then there are some people who feel that taking a pills is easier, than other behavioral, therapeutic strategies that may be more beneficial over the long term.
I also feel that the US culture is not a psychologically very "healthy" one, for reasons mentioned above.

I went on an antidepressant for less than a year when I was dealing with marriage implosion. It really helps if you have a problem say that you might burst into tears at work. It also made me realize I am not a naturally depressed person. Once I got over the crisis I got off them as soon as I could. My body just doesn't process medications well (I'm allergic to 4 meds, including one that sent me to the hospital), and for me managing things non-medication wise works much better.

MrThatsDifferent

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2018, 12:51:10 PM »
Because the drug companies own Americans. If you watch commercial tv, youíre bombarded with drug commercials, there is a fix for everything. Americans are a drug obsessed nation because there is money drugs. Itís only worse now as there are generations of kids who have been put on drugs to get them to comply and so that becomes there only way to function. Now everyone needs pot to manage life. And weíre shocked at the opioid crisis? Anyways, Iím sure there will be a flooding of, but I need this to fix me! responses.  Many Americans are functioning drug-addicts. But itís ok, their doctor said you need it.

alanB

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2018, 01:01:32 PM »
Millions of dogs on psychiatric medication too:
http://www.slate.com/blogs/wild_things/2014/03/17/prozac_for_pets_an_anxious_dog_improves_on_antidepressant_medication.html

I know that doesn't answer the question, but somehow it feels insightful....

FIRE Artist

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2018, 01:08:16 PM »
I don't see a problem with it as long as there is some kind of therapy going along with it, so ideally it isn't a full time/permanent thing.

I am not a "happy" person, and certainly have many times that I feel blue/melancholic about life in general, but I know that is best managed by action - get out of the house, get fresh air, go be social doing anything at all. 

I have only once in my life had what I know would be classified as depression and that was last fall when we found out my dad has stage 4 brain cancer.  I found myself in tears or on the brink of tears for about 6 weeks, pre-grieving the unavoidable.  I managed it by deciding to tell no one at work but my manager (so he knew why I was booking so much vacation, and that I may have to leave town with no notice), I didn't want to ever be put in a situation I had no control over, you know the "well meaning, nosey co-worker" who has to greet you with a head tilted  "how's it going?" every time they see, you.  Nope, wasn't doing that.  I happened to have my annual physical with my doctor 3 weeks into it and broke down in her office, she told me we could explore antidepressants but if we went that route, she wanted to also refer me to a therapist.  We agreed to wait, I took a prescription for some sleep aid, and the whole thing passed a few weeks later.  My peers all know now, I can face a question without any fear of breaking down.

If I was living my life day to day with no end in sight like I was in the fall, I absolutely would be on medication and in therapy.  That is no way to live. 

big_owl

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #27 on: February 12, 2018, 01:12:54 PM »
If I was living my life day to day with no end in sight like I was in the fall, I absolutely would be on medication and in therapy.  That is no way to live.

This is the way for chronic pain too.  The never-ending life suck of pain that you either know will never get better or don't know if it will ever get better!  Or even worse if it's degenerative and you know it's only going to get worse!  Bring on the meds lol.


Hula Hoop

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2018, 01:19:20 PM »
One of my best friends is clinically depressed and anti-depressants have literally saved her life.  She has been hospitalized twice and I never want to see her in the state she was in when admitted to hospital ever again.  i see a lot of minimizing and misunderstanding of clinical depression on this thread.  Antidepressants have saved many, many lives and having seen my friend's experience, I think they're wonderful.  My friend is a wonderful mother and I shudder to think of her kids having to deal with the loss of their mother at a young age if she had not had access to these drugs and good psychiatric care.

GuitarStv

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #29 on: February 12, 2018, 01:36:10 PM »
The field of clinical psychology is not a science (although it's sold to many as such).
I'm going to stop you right there. While there are a lot of critiques that can be levied at clinical psychology due to the application of the scientific method, the field is a science that applies the scientific method.

Psychology has failed to provide a body of knowledge with a clear, unified core of beliefs.  Information (that is often gained by painstakingly following the scientific method) is of little or no value without this.

A behavioral psychologist operating today has different expectations, will look for different problems, and will use different treatments than a Freudian psychologist operating fifty years ago. . . but these differences are not rooted in proof that Freudian psychoanalysis is wrong - they're not rooted in any proof that behavioral psychology is right.  The core of what psychology is is ruled by fad, societal whim, and not by scientific rigor.  The DSM is just one a symptom of this problem.  Another is that you can go with the same symptom to ten different psychologists and get ten different diagnosis.  There's the failure to use clear terminology and quantifiability in results generated.  Another is that it cannot describe what 'normal' is . . . the very state that it is attempting to return it's subjects to.  This list goes on and on.

It's a fixable problem, and I hope that it gets fixed.  Some fields of psychology really seem to be working on it.  In the clinical sense though, we're miles away from being scientific.



Note - I'm not arguing that seeing a psychologist is a bad idea, or that taking antidepressants is wrong.  If you feel that it's going to make you happier and healthier, it may well do just that.  If it's not working for you, then don't put unfounded faith in the practice.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2018, 02:01:52 PM by GuitarStv »

fuzzy math

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #30 on: February 12, 2018, 01:42:25 PM »
Depression (and other mental illnesses) have been around a long time. Back in the day before there were reliable meds, people got electro shock therapy, lobotomies or perhaps they simply just laid down on the train tracks leaving their infant son without a father (as my husband's great grandpa did).
Not sure we can know whether the medication statistics reflect the true population subset, or whether there are increases in depressed people, or whether seeking treatment is just easier now. But let's not pretend that the medicine is unnecessary, or depression is a made up modern construct. 

Lance Burkhart

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mathlete

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #32 on: February 12, 2018, 02:03:21 PM »
They are clinically depressed and seeking appropriate treatment.

Mods, lock this thread. Nailed it on the first try.

Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #33 on: February 12, 2018, 02:24:31 PM »
They are clinically depressed and seeking appropriate treatment.

Mods, lock this thread. Nailed it on the first try.

Because when 13% of people are on antidepressants, that's a problem with people, not society.

mathlete

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #34 on: February 12, 2018, 02:29:41 PM »
Because when 13% of people are on antidepressants, that's a problem with people, not society.

Not sure I follow.

Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #35 on: February 12, 2018, 02:42:52 PM »
Because when 13% of people are on antidepressants, that's a problem with people, not society.

Not sure I follow.

If our society was a healthy one, we wouldn't have 13% of people suffering from depression. Psychiatric drugs are wonderful things, but not if they are used as a band aid for a society that is fundamentally disordered, per my post above.

netskyblue

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #36 on: February 12, 2018, 02:44:22 PM »
Nearly 30% of Americans have high blood pressure.  Source

8% of Americans had asthma in 2009.  Source

9.4% of Americans are diabetic. Source

5 million (1.5%) of Americans have Alzheimer's. Source

It's disingenuous to state that nothing we humans are doing is affecting our health, of course it does, but the answer to "why are so many people taking prescription medication?" is "because so many people have health conditions that can be treated and improved with medication."

GuitarStv

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #37 on: February 12, 2018, 02:47:26 PM »
Not to go all holistic on everyone here . . . but that 30% of people with high blood pressure might be better off exercising more rather than taking medication.  If there are structural, societal reasons why they don't feel that they can spend the time exercising that might suggest a problem to be solved unrelated to the availability (or even quality of) medication.

mathlete

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #38 on: February 12, 2018, 02:54:49 PM »
If our society was a healthy one, we wouldn't have 13% of people suffering from depression. Psychiatric drugs are wonderful things, but not if they are used as a band aid for a society that is fundamentally disordered, per my post above.

I don't know. Your brain can just get all wonky for seemingly no reason at all. We used to have limited ways of dealing with that.


WhiteTrashCash

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #39 on: February 12, 2018, 02:57:47 PM »
I take anti-depressants because I have a chemical imbalance in my brain caused by severe childhood trauma which has caused me to suffer from Major Depressive Disorder. Luckily, I didn't listen to the well-meaning but completely incorrect hippie flower children and I got the medication that allows me to live a normal and very successful life.

Walks in the park are pleasant, though, so the hippies are right about that.

FireHiker

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #40 on: February 12, 2018, 03:16:00 PM »
I don't think the various answers here are mutually exclusive. Yes, more people are seeking appropriate treatment for conditions that were previously stigmatized (depression and anxiety in this case), and thank goodness for that. On the flip side, there are definitely elements of modern society that contribute to an increase in depression: lack of physical activity, unhealthy diet/environment, etc. Taking an anti-depressant won't fix everything, but for some people it can give them the ability to get to a healthy enough place mentally that they are able to start making other changes in their lives. I think it's better to risk potential over-prescribing of anti-depressants as opposed to leaving depression untreated; I've seen the aftermath from suicide. The people I have personally known (who have been open to talking about it) who've had the best results in treating depression have been the people who take an anti-depressant in conjunction with seeing a therapist to work out personal issues that may be contributing to the depression. I have had a few friends who have then been able to go off of anti-depressants successfully; everyone is different.

dougules

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #41 on: February 12, 2018, 03:50:20 PM »
Just curious how many of the folks here are practicing psychiatrists.

Malkynn

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #42 on: February 12, 2018, 04:12:57 PM »
13% seems actually pretty reasonable. My guess is that the depression rates are a lot higher and a lot of people are unmedicated.

As for why so many people are depressed, well, i see a lot of reasons in this thread suggesting that the rates are worse now, but I seriously doubt people are more depressed now on average than they were in the 50s, 30s, 1800s, whatever.

And no, Iím not a practicing psychiatrist. Iím just an ex neuroscientist with a degree in psychology who happens to have lived with a psychologist for several years. Oh, and Iíve been in therapy on and off for decades, but I think everyone needs therapy.

golden1

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #43 on: February 12, 2018, 04:24:55 PM »
Quote
I don't think the various answers here are mutually exclusive. Yes, more people are seeking appropriate treatment for conditions that were previously stigmatized (depression and anxiety in this case), and thank goodness for that. On the flip side, there are definitely elements of modern society that contribute to an increase in depression: lack of physical activity, unhealthy diet/environment, etc. Taking an anti-depressant won't fix everything, but for some people it can give them the ability to get to a healthy enough place mentally that they are able to start making other changes in their lives.

This.  I am not sure it has to be all or nothing

I have dysthymia (mild chronic depression) that has turned into major depressive disorder, usually under moments of extreme stress.  The way I like to think of it is that my baseline happiness is just a tick lower than the average.  If the average mood is a 5 out of 10 for the general public, mine is more like a 3.  I can manage on a day to day level just fine, but things are just sort of washed out and drab.  When I am fighting major depression, I will start crying for no reason at all and have trouble functioning.  After years of trying to fight it without meds due to stigma, I took some anti depressants for the first time about 10 years ago during a bad period.  Holy shit, did that make things easier!  I was able to function, and then start using other therapeutic methods like meditation, exercise, and CBT, which allowed me to wean off the meds when the crisis had passed.  I donít particularly like the side effects.

I definitely think that depression is partly and evolutionary mismatch disease, similar to heart disease, and blood pressure, tooth decay etc....  We didnít evolve to live the way we are currently living, and our lifestyles have changed faster than we can adapt to them. 

SC93

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #44 on: February 12, 2018, 05:55:13 PM »
Our family is so happy I forget others have these types of problems. We are lucky I guess....

tipster350

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #45 on: February 12, 2018, 06:11:22 PM »
13% does seem like a high number for taking anti-depressants. Aside from those with chemical imbalances or situational depression, I think a lot of people are not happy in their lives. One of the manifestations of their unhappiness is overspending, which we all know turns into a vicious cycle.

irresistible1kh

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #46 on: February 12, 2018, 06:33:42 PM »
I personally could not live anything close to a normal life without my anti anxiety meds.

SnackDog

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #47 on: February 12, 2018, 06:36:13 PM »
Mostly because large drug companies are essentially bribing physicians to prescribe them.

TheWifeHalf

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #48 on: February 12, 2018, 07:02:40 PM »
I'm going to come back and respond to this in depth, but wanted to get this out there:

I am 59 and it's suggested to get a DEXA scan - tests bone density. I made my appointment then did a bit of research into whatever I was going in for.

Everything I read said that antidepressants are one of the causes of bone thinning. Oh no! I've been on an antidepressant for 30 years! But if I kept reading whatever article I was reading, they all said "except for the tricyclic antidepressants."  I take a tricyclic antidepressant. Phew.

So, any women here, on an antidepressant, might want to keep this in mind.

PDXTabs

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Re: 13% of Americans take anti-depressants, why?
« Reply #49 on: February 12, 2018, 07:44:48 PM »
I'm believer (because of experience with my own body) that depression is a symptom of generalized Inflammation (at least some of the cases). Separately, the developed world has more and more cases of immune and autoimmune disease. These two things could be linked (I have both autoimmune disease and depression, and when my autoimmune disease flares so does my depression).

As for why the developed world has more immune and autoimmune disease, I'm a big fan of the hygiene hypothesis.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2018, 07:47:46 PM by PDXTabs »