Author Topic: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth  (Read 29702 times)

HawkeyeNFO

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1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« on: November 14, 2017, 02:21:58 PM »

soccerluvof4

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2017, 02:29:55 PM »
Well maybe there doing the right things. The more you have invested the chances are you will have more wealth. The article is to simplistic.

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2017, 02:41:13 PM »
I read another article today where restaurant corporations are getting scared because Millennials refuse to eat out. It's not all doom and gloom.

SC93

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2017, 02:44:36 PM »
Let's go back to the several years that I had $0, was homeless at times and I was so dang happy when I could just get my hands on a Dr. Pepper every now and then, let alone some food...... I never had an attitude about people with money. I just don't understand why people worry or even think about anyone else's money situation. Why does it matter if others have $1 or $1 billion? What is it anyone else's business? If those that worry about others would worry about their own bank account they might have a little more money. Spend that time selling something instead of thinking about what others have that you don't.

Here is how I changed my bank account, I hung out with people that had money and they never knew I was homeless. I started doing the things they did, worked my (*) off and here I am today, one of the top few! I didn't make them feel sorry for me or ask them for things.... I rode my bike to work or walked and worked 120+ hour weeks. The first 3 years I owned my cleaning business I worked 365 days a year and on Christmas I had to clean a church 2 times instead of having one of my workers do it so they could have the day off. I worked hard then so I don't have to now.

YttriumNitrate

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2017, 02:47:29 PM »
I'm somewhat surprised it isn't higher than half. As a worldwide 1%er, I'm doing what I can to get that number higher.

You are probably a worldwide 1%er too:
https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/050615/are-you-top-one-percent-world.asp

Jrr85

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2017, 02:53:36 PM »
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/14/richest-1-percent-now-own-half-the-worlds-wealth.html

Yep.  No surprise here.  The rich get richer....

Hard to say because there is as far as I can tell no cite or link to the report, but the "report" may just be playing games with net worth and the fact that a lot of high income people still have low or negative net worth.  So in a society of 100 people where 99 people made $1,000,000,000 a year and spent $1,000,000,000 per year, the one guy making $50,000 a year and spending $49,999 a year owns more wealth than the other 99 people in his society, combined!!1!1!!


tooqk4u22

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2017, 03:16:43 PM »
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/14/richest-1-percent-now-own-half-the-worlds-wealth.html

Yep.  No surprise here.  The rich get richer....

Context matter a bunch here and more likely than not most people on this forum are part of the guilty 1%....

Global top 1% for income in US$ - $32,400.
Global Top 1% for net worth - $770,000 (includes home equity)

So really not that high of a bar.

VoteCthulu

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2017, 05:25:49 PM »
Good for us 1%ers!

Hopefully I'll make it into the millionaire club too someday.

mm1970

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2017, 05:39:12 PM »
Let's go back to the several years that I had $0, was homeless at times and I was so dang happy when I could just get my hands on a Dr. Pepper every now and then, let alone some food...... I never had an attitude about people with money. I just don't understand why people worry or even think about anyone else's money situation. Why does it matter if others have $1 or $1 billion? What is it anyone else's business? If those that worry about others would worry about their own bank account they might have a little more money. Spend that time selling something instead of thinking about what others have that you don't.

Here is how I changed my bank account, I hung out with people that had money and they never knew I was homeless. I started doing the things they did, worked my (*) off and here I am today, one of the top few! I didn't make them feel sorry for me or ask them for things.... I rode my bike to work or walked and worked 120+ hour weeks. The first 3 years I owned my cleaning business I worked 365 days a year and on Christmas I had to clean a church 2 times instead of having one of my workers do it so they could have the day off. I worked hard then so I don't have to now.

It matters if they use that money to buy laws, lawmakers, preferential treatment...

aceyou

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2017, 06:08:14 PM »
Let's go back to the several years that I had $0, was homeless at times and I was so dang happy when I could just get my hands on a Dr. Pepper every now and then, let alone some food...... I never had an attitude about people with money. I just don't understand why people worry or even think about anyone else's money situation. Why does it matter if others have $1 or $1 billion? What is it anyone else's business? If those that worry about others would worry about their own bank account they might have a little more money. Spend that time selling something instead of thinking about what others have that you don't.

Here is how I changed my bank account, I hung out with people that had money and they never knew I was homeless. I started doing the things they did, worked my (*) off and here I am today, one of the top few! I didn't make them feel sorry for me or ask them for things.... I rode my bike to work or walked and worked 120+ hour weeks. The first 3 years I owned my cleaning business I worked 365 days a year and on Christmas I had to clean a church 2 times instead of having one of my workers do it so they could have the day off. I worked hard then so I don't have to now.

It matters if they use that money to buy laws, lawmakers, preferential treatment...

This. 

Just to give one example, the Indian subcontinent wasn't conquered by the British Empire.  It was conquered by a corporation called the British East India Company.  That corporation, owned by private individuals, had so much power and wealth, they were able to own a hundred million people and all their resources for generations. 

We dang well should and better care that 50% of the worlds wealth is owned by 1% of the people, especially when the most powerful country in that world is currently enacting tax policies and laws to further increase the wealth of that very small group of individuals. 

It's not about jealousy.  It's not about envy for the cool yachts they own.  It it was just relatively benign shit like that, it wouldn't be a problem.  The problem is that that money allows them to control public policy...in other words, our democracy...in other words, our ability to live in an actually free society.  And this isn't hyperbole, it's what always happens throughout history when tiny groups get all the power.

« Last Edit: November 14, 2017, 06:09:58 PM by aceyou »

sol

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2017, 06:42:41 PM »
It's much worse than the original link suggests.  Some analyses report that it's not the top 1% who own as much as the poorest half of humans, it's five individual people who own as much as the poorest half of humans.

https://www.commondreams.org/views/2017/06/12/now-just-five-men-own-almost-much-wealth-half-worlds-population

Wealth inequality is ridiculous at all levels.  The top 1% are just as poor compared to the top .01% as the the rest of the world is to the 1%.

partgypsy

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2017, 07:00:56 PM »
I wish I could find it, but Keith Knight has a comic about affirmative action, and white people complaining, well, they have the same rights as us, what does it matter, is like being invited to play monopoly during the last 10 minutes of the game, given 200 bucks, but all the spaces have houses and hotels on them.
Similar thoughts about the poor and rich. It's not about having a yacht or not. There is such a disparity, that in many parts of the world (and even the US) it is the difference between having enough food to eat, survival out of childhood, clean drinking water, and safety from violence. So for those people, yes I think they do care.

2Birds1Stone

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2017, 07:02:39 PM »
A huge part of this forum make up that 1%

I actually fall in the top 3.7% of the world's richest people.....with a NW of $300k.....

triangle

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2017, 07:09:13 PM »

sol

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2017, 07:15:46 PM »
A similar report of 3 Americans having as much wealth as the bottom half. 
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/nov/08/bill-gates-jeff-bezos-warren-buffett-wealthier-than-poorest-half-of-us

That article says the three richest Americans have as much wealth as the bottom 50% of Americans. 

The above link say the five richest people on Earth have as much wealth as the bottom 50% of people on Earth.

Same idea, but very different metrics.  Americans are pretty damn wealthy compared to most people on Earth.  Even the poor ones.

Nightwatchman9270

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2017, 09:16:14 AM »
Waaahhhh..........

Most of the poorest countries are poor because their Socialist governments are corrupt and are looting their countries resources and foreign aid in order to line their own pockets.  What is your solution?  Confiscate more money from the weathiest countries?  Where does THAT money come from?  You? Me?  It's pretty naive to think that money wouldn't end up in the same place.  Guess I don't understand the OP's point.

loyalreader

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2017, 09:36:59 AM »
Waaahhhh..........

Most of the poorest countries are poor because their Socialist governments are corrupt and are looting their countries resources and foreign aid in order to line their own pockets.  What is your solution?  Confiscate more money from the weathiest countries?  Where does THAT money come from?  You? Me?  It's pretty naive to think that money wouldn't end up in the same place.  Guess I don't understand the OP's point.

Wait. What?

I'd talk to people actually living in one of these 'corrupt' Socialist governments before I'd make a statement like that. I have (I'm talking France and Denmark... not Russia) and they paint a radically different picture than you just described.

In any case, history shows us why this is important. Wealth imbalance has historically led to revolutions. Those revolutions haven't solved any problems, but they have hurt a lot of people. Generally there is a wave of populism. Intellectuals are usually targeted, and minorities too. Then the status quo is reestablished and there is a different group of people at top of the chain. So... it's good information to know and good to talk about.


talltexan

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2017, 09:44:29 AM »
...and we're coming for you guys' half, soon, too!

partgypsy

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2017, 10:29:57 AM »
I agree that a lot of poor countries have corrupt or weak governments. But I wouldn't describe them as socialist, because yanno, socialist governements redistribute wealth. Maybe some are socialist in name, but not in practice. Kind of how the US is democratic in name but becoming an oligarchy.

acroy

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2017, 11:13:20 AM »
The poor have NEVER been better off.

There is often a sub-text to these conversations that inequality is somehow bad. Wrong-o! Inequality is what provides motivation and is exactly why socialism fails every.single.time. It removes the reward from the risk.

As far as the wealthy buying influence, power etc. Yes. They always have and yes they always will, of course they will! It would be foolish not to.

Saving4Fire

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2017, 11:21:02 AM »

There is often a sub-text to these conversations that inequality is somehow bad. Wrong-o! Inequality is what provides motivation and is exactly why socialism fails every.single.time. It removes the reward from the risk.

What is your definition of socialism?

Schaefer Light

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2017, 11:35:36 AM »
I agree that a lot of poor countries have corrupt or weak governments. But I wouldn't describe them as socialist, because yanno, socialist governements redistribute wealth. Maybe some are socialist in name, but not in practice. Kind of how the US is democratic in name but becoming an oligarchy.

Socialism is more about the government controlling the means of production than it is about redistributing wealth.

partgypsy

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2017, 12:12:55 PM »
I think there must be a very long tail that was cut off from that graph, given that the average spending is 10-20/day.

acroy

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2017, 12:20:28 PM »
What is your definition of socialism?
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism
"any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods"

simonsez

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #24 on: November 15, 2017, 01:03:44 PM »
Inequality is what provides motivation and is exactly why socialism fails every.single.time.
What is the definition of failure here?  If you look at all the countries currently considered the best, most of those are considered more socialist than the rest of the world.  However no one is 100% socialist or 100% capitalist.

No doubt inequality provides motivation but historically I think that motivation has turned into blood in the streets more so rather than an individual deciding to be become relentless in their pursuit of the upper echelons.

Saving4Fire

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #25 on: November 15, 2017, 01:09:31 PM »
What is your definition of socialism?
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism
"any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods"

Your definition doesn't support your claim:  "exactly why socialism fails every.single.time."

Retire-Canada

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #26 on: November 15, 2017, 01:30:48 PM »
Well I'm in the top 1% of the planet based on income and I'm in the top 2% for net worth. Hopefully I can crack the top 1% for net worth in the next few years.

YttriumNitrate

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #27 on: November 15, 2017, 02:38:46 PM »
I think there must be a very long tail that was cut off from that graph, given that the average spending is 10-20/day.
Don't forget that the x-axis is not linear. Also, as it is the graph ends at $200 per day per capita, which works out to a family of four spending almost $300k per year.

partgypsy

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #28 on: November 15, 2017, 04:00:17 PM »
I think there must be a very long tail that was cut off from that graph, given that the average spending is 10-20/day.
Don't forget that the x-axis is not linear. Also, as it is the graph ends at $200 per day per capita, which works out to a family of four spending almost $300k per year.

That is a good point. The fact that the x axis is not linear, really compresses it and distorts how long the tail is, and how compressed everyone else is. I am glad that the poor are getting better off. But if everyone improves, including the top 1% and .1%, then consumption is also going to go way up, especially as the population keeps increasing. This is one of the few forums where I can say and not get horrified responses, that the responsibility of the top 10% of the world may be finding a way to reduce their consumption, so that the lower 50% can not just survive, but live.

Rocketman

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #29 on: November 15, 2017, 05:14:19 PM »
Look at the top 2 people in the United States Buffet and Gates. 

Was their money inherited? No.
Did they both start out roughly where I did - money wise yep. Brain wise nope ( both are smarter than me).

Good for them that they made great companies and made themselves and many others rich too!!!

Will they take it with them when they die? Nope.

We are all in the same boat.

sol

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #30 on: November 15, 2017, 07:21:46 PM »
Don't forget that the x-axis is not linear. Also, as it is the graph ends at $200 per day per capita, which works out to a family of four spending almost $300k per year.

$300k per year?  That's peanuts.

You have to remember that wealth inequality isn't measured in the number of people in each income bin, it's measured in total wealth.  The median person doesn't matter at all.  The 95% percentile person doesn't matter at all.  They're both destitute paupers compared to the few thousands people alive today who control the majority of all wealth on the planet.  Those are the only people who are truly driving the global economy.  Everything the rest of us do is a rounding error.

Imagine an island with a thousand people.  999 of them have $1 each, and the 1000th person has a billion dollars.  That's approximately the situation we're dealing with today, on a planetary scale.  The 999 all run around frantically competing to get $2 or even $5 if they're really lucky, but none of that really matters.  When analyzing how their island's resources and assets are allocated and controlled, every single one of the 999 is invisible.  That last guy is the only one who makes any decisions that count for anything. 


« Last Edit: November 16, 2017, 08:34:37 PM by sol »

Leisured

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #31 on: November 15, 2017, 11:34:39 PM »
Most people, even in rich countries, own surprisingly little in assets. Consider someone earning $100k a year. Rich, eh? If that person lives paycheck to paycheck, and rents a house, that person might have about $50K in assets, at fire sale prices. Car, clothes, furniture. If Bill Gates has $50 billion in assets, he has as much as one million of those with only $50K in assets each.

The situation is more dire in poor countries. Most people do not think about income producing assets, and only think about the worth of their labor.

'1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth' is a striking title, but it it just shows that most people have no interest in owning productive assets. That is a decision, even if these people are not fully ware that they have made a decision.

More to the point is inequality of income, not assets.

Fresh Bread

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #32 on: November 16, 2017, 12:11:37 AM »
What is your definition of socialism?
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism
"any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods"

Ah you see that definition is describing pure socialism, ie communism. I agree that pure communism doesn't work, we study that at school and read Animal Farm! However, if you read further down the page you see that when most people say socialism they are referring to democratic socialism, eg Denmark & many other European countries.

Were you referring to the dictionary definition as quoted? Or saying that democratic socialism fails? Because if the latter, I couldn't ever agree.

From my studies of economic development, I believe inequality does not motivate upward movement but rather creates divisions and motivates people to crime and/or a distrust or fear of 'the others'. Reducing inequality is the goal of economic development.

felixbf

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #33 on: November 16, 2017, 03:37:29 AM »
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/14/richest-1-percent-now-own-half-the-worlds-wealth.html

Yep.  No surprise here.  The rich get richer....

Most likely none of them are happy though...

Laissez-Faire

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #34 on: November 16, 2017, 04:53:53 AM »
In my country the government handouts for idle people translate to approximately $3-400k of  wealth per adult person, using the 4% rule.

So, a family of 2 adults, 2 children, with no jobs and 0 investments / property has effective wealth of ~$800k.

Clearly ahead of my own family to be honest.


talltexan

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #35 on: November 16, 2017, 07:12:12 AM »
Look at the top 2 people in the United States Buffet and Gates. 

Was their money inherited? No.
Did they both start out roughly where I did - money wise yep. Brain wise nope ( both are smarter than me).

Good for them that they made great companies and made themselves and many others rich too!!!

Will they take it with them when they die? Nope.

We are all in the same boat.

How familiar are you with these two biographies? Buffet was the son of a Congressman. Gates' parents already owned helicopters BEFORE he was in high school. They deserve tremendous credit for what they built, but they have both openly acknowledged the advantages they had from birth.

Retire-Canada

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #36 on: November 16, 2017, 07:57:33 AM »
Most likely none of them are happy though...

I'm pretty happy and I am nearly a 1% for NW.

surfhb

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #37 on: November 16, 2017, 09:08:45 AM »
The poor have NEVER been better off.

There is often a sub-text to these conversations that inequality is somehow bad. Wrong-o! Inequality is what provides motivation and is exactly why socialism fails every.single.time. It removes the reward from the risk.

As far as the wealthy buying influence, power etc. Yes. They always have and yes they always will, of course they will! It would be foolish not to.

Just so you are aware, a majority of folks living in these “socialist” countries would probably disagree with your assertion that it is a negative.    For example, Canada, Europe and South America have much better health care for the same costs.... I know first hand.

As for the rich buying influence, at least we can agree it’s wrong... right?

I would also agree that global capitalism  is the single greatest contributor to reducing poverty around the world.   Not the best if you live and work in manufacturing in the US though.   Can’t have it both ways.   

Yay capitalism !!
« Last Edit: November 16, 2017, 09:15:32 AM by surfhb »

aceyou

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #38 on: November 16, 2017, 09:15:57 AM »
Most people, even in rich countries, own surprisingly little in assets. Consider someone earning $100k a year. Rich, eh? If that person lives paycheck to paycheck, and rents a house, that person might have about $50K in assets, at fire sale prices. Car, clothes, furniture. If Bill Gates has $50 billion in assets, he has as much as one million of those with only $50K in assets each.

The situation is more dire in poor countries. Most people do not think about income producing assets, and only think about the worth of their labor.

'1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth' is a striking title, but it it just shows that most people have no interest in owning productive assets. That is a decision, even if these people are not fully ware that they have made a decision.

More to the point is inequality of income, not assets.


No, it absolutely IS the inequality of assets that's the problem. 

But like Sol has pointed out, and very well IMO, it's not the fact that they have half the assets that's the real problem.  It's that having half the wealth gives them 99% of the power. 

If the the richest 50 people in the USA have 80% of the say about what rights for the LGTBQ community will be, that goes beyond material wealth.  If they can determine the direction that stem cell research can or can't go in.  If they can determine the laws and regulations that determine which forms of energy will be the winners or losers, etc.  This is the real problem.  It undermines our freedom. 

And saying "it just shows that most people have no interest in owning productive assets"....are you kidding me. 

The difference between me and the children of the Kochs, the Devos's, the Trumps, the Waltons is not a difference in a desire to own productive assets.  It's the difference between who is born to who. 

It was mentioned in a different post I think, but it's like playing monopoly where 99.999% of the players get invited to start playing with $200 dollars, and all the properties have already been purchased and everything is built up with hotels. 

I want to say as explicitly as possible that I have ZERO jealousy or envy that these people get to fly fancy planes and have 50 million dollar toys.  The problem is that they get to make decisions about how our society will operate.   

The children of the Koch's will have more ability to influence public policy than everyone in the whole state of Michigan combined who isn't worth a billion dollars or more. 

And right now policies are being enacted to let these children inherit an even LARGER percentage of their parents wealth. 




frenchsquared

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #39 on: November 16, 2017, 10:59:20 AM »
Most people do not think about income producing assets, and only think about the worth of their labor.

That is a very important statement. That change in thought took me from negative net worth of $170,000 to a positive net worth of $100,000 in 5 years and I am now generating $5,000 per month in additional net worth without touching my personal monthly income.  I focused 100% on income producing assets for 2 years and change my life.

A large percentage of the 99% wont go without flashy stuff to change the life. Others don't have enough to live on. you have to make enough to live before you can invest in assets.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2017, 11:02:36 AM by frenchsquared »

Retire-Canada

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #40 on: November 16, 2017, 11:08:46 AM »
A large percentage of the 99% wont go without flashy stuff to change the life. Others don't have enough to live on. you have to make enough to live before you can invest in assets.

Keep in mind everyone you know is in top 5% of the planet and if you are a professional you and your peers are in the top 1-2%. Most of the people on the planet are trying to eat, shelter themselves and survive not worrying about what bling to buy next.

A Definite Beta Guy

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #41 on: November 16, 2017, 11:16:46 AM »
Most people, even in rich countries, own surprisingly little in assets. Consider someone earning $100k a year. Rich, eh? If that person lives paycheck to paycheck, and rents a house, that person might have about $50K in assets, at fire sale prices. Car, clothes, furniture. If Bill Gates has $50 billion in assets, he has as much as one million of those with only $50K in assets each.

The situation is more dire in poor countries. Most people do not think about income producing assets, and only think about the worth of their labor.

'1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth' is a striking title, but it it just shows that most people have no interest in owning productive assets. That is a decision, even if these people are not fully ware that they have made a decision.

More to the point is inequality of income, not assets.


No, it absolutely IS the inequality of assets that's the problem. 

But like Sol has pointed out, and very well IMO, it's not the fact that they have half the assets that's the real problem.  It's that having half the wealth gives them 99% of the power. 

If the the richest 50 people in the USA have 80% of the say about what rights for the LGTBQ community will be, that goes beyond material wealth.  If they can determine the direction that stem cell research can or can't go in.  If they can determine the laws and regulations that determine which forms of energy will be the winners or losers, etc.  This is the real problem.  It undermines our freedom. 

And saying "it just shows that most people have no interest in owning productive assets"....are you kidding me. 

The difference between me and the children of the Kochs, the Devos's, the Trumps, the Waltons is not a difference in a desire to own productive assets.  It's the difference between who is born to who. 

It was mentioned in a different post I think, but it's like playing monopoly where 99.999% of the players get invited to start playing with $200 dollars, and all the properties have already been purchased and everything is built up with hotels. 

I want to say as explicitly as possible that I have ZERO jealousy or envy that these people get to fly fancy planes and have 50 million dollar toys.  The problem is that they get to make decisions about how our society will operate.   

The children of the Koch's will have more ability to influence public policy than everyone in the whole state of Michigan combined who isn't worth a billion dollars or more. 

And right now policies are being enacted to let these children inherit an even LARGER percentage of their parents wealth.
I would encourage you taking a look at our current political system, compare it the Koch brother's political beliefs, and then make a determination of how much influence they have. The Kochs are libertarians. US governments take 35% of GDP and spend it primarily on the military, transfer payments, healthcare, and education. That's not a libertarian outcome, so the Koch brothers can be said to have marginal influence at best.

acroy

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #42 on: November 16, 2017, 11:54:56 AM »
What is your definition of socialism?
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism
"any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods"

Ah you see that definition is describing pure socialism, ie communism. I agree that pure communism doesn't work, we study that at school and read Animal Farm! However, if you read further down the page you see that when most people say socialism they are referring to democratic socialism, eg Denmark & many other European countries.

Were you referring to the dictionary definition as quoted? Or saying that democratic socialism fails? Because if the latter, I couldn't ever agree.

From my studies of economic development, I believe inequality does not motivate upward movement but rather creates divisions and motivates people to crime and/or a distrust or fear of 'the others'. Reducing inequality is the goal of economic development.

Socialism defined above.
Communism, per Marx:  "Abolition of private property."
Democratic socialism: political democracy and social ownership of the means of production
   -Agree pure socialism = communism, though the meanings of the words and history of the movements has been fluid.
Capitalism:  economic system + ideology based on private ownership of the means of production and their operation for profit.
Totalitarianism/fascism: individual subservience to the State, often incorporating other bad stuff like dictators, racism, etc.

The 'Democratic socialist' nations are capitalist at their core with an infection of totalitarianism/fascism. WHAT you say?? well, look at the definitions. They are largely capitalist: private ownership of most sectors of industry. You can purchase shares in most companies and they are run for-profit. Some sectors have state choice vs. individual choice (the totalitarianism/fascism aspect); education, healthcare are the typical examples. Actual ownership of the providers is often a muddled mess. Though, it is quite clear a Swedish billionaire will have access to better HC and education than the proletariat....

You say you "believe inequality does not motivate upward movement " but I betcha you act the opposite, most of us do. Go to school, work hard, get better jobs, etc. Why? to improve your situation! To 'move up'! The only motivation for upwards movement is inequality, reaching for the next step up; almost by definition. If there was nothing to move up to, there is no motivation. Can't climb a ladder made of air.

Inequality is what provides motivation and is exactly why socialism fails every.single.time.
What is the definition of failure here?  If you look at all the countries currently considered the best, most of those are considered more socialist than the rest of the world.  However no one is 100% socialist or 100% capitalist.
The 'most' socialist: N Korea, Cuba, Venezuela.... China used to be on the list till they realized it was a failure, and introduced capitalist 'reforms'. Russia/USSR collapsed as well of course.  The Maduro Diet is a real thing, right now...

surfhb

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #43 on: November 16, 2017, 02:40:07 PM »
^This is very America and driven by consumerism.   I assure you, the rest of the world does not feel this way.   Believe it or not, there are many very happy people in this world who live on very little....and I mean very little!

Not everyone wants or needs to "move up".   Sure, I could go back to school and get another degree and probably make a lot more money but my life would be a complete mess.   No time for the things that make me happy and I'm ok with that.

As a side note, the only thing separating the US and a Third World nation are the safety net features (socialism) we pay for with our taxes.    Ive had some clients come here from China who told me they were shocked by the amount of poverty in the US and how run down everything looked.   They thought this was the land of abundances.

I would even argue that the US is one of the most socialist nations in the world if you want to consider things like government subsidies for agriculture and corporations, worthless military bases, ect.   All aimed at keeping people in this country out of dire poverty. 
« Last Edit: November 16, 2017, 03:55:07 PM by surfhb »

Debts_of_Despair

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #44 on: November 16, 2017, 02:54:13 PM »
Didn't we just have a thread where it was basically determined that most people on this forum are 5 percenters for their age?

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #45 on: November 16, 2017, 08:09:52 PM »
As a side note, the only thing separating the US and a Third World nation are the safety net features (socialism) we pay for with our taxes.
Do you really mean that? If Zimbabwe or Syria cloned our Social Security system and gave out food stamps, would it become just like the US?

Fresh Bread

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #46 on: November 16, 2017, 08:42:33 PM »

You say you "believe inequality does not motivate upward movement " but I betcha you act the opposite, most of us do. Go to school, work hard, get better jobs, etc. Why? to improve your situation! To 'move up'! The only motivation for upwards movement is inequality, reaching for the next step up; almost by definition. If there was nothing to move up to, there is no motivation. Can't climb a ladder made of air.

Inequality is what provides motivation and is exactly why socialism fails every.single.time.
What is the definition of failure here?  If you look at all the countries currently considered the best, most of those are considered more socialist than the rest of the world.  However no one is 100% socialist or 100% capitalist.
The 'most' socialist: N Korea, Cuba, Venezuela.... China used to be on the list till they realized it was a failure, and introduced capitalist 'reforms'. Russia/USSR collapsed as well of course.  The Maduro Diet is a real thing, right now...

So you are saying that pure communism fails (I think?) and I think most people would agree with you. There are very few people in the world still spruiking communism as the answer. Is Cuba a total failure though, I don't know - obviously there's a lack of personal freedom but I've visited and people were making their way and making money on the side. There was inequality between those who could earn tourist dollars on the side and those who couldn't. Health care was great, there was free government ice-cream and cake, ha ha, I felt incredibly safe aside from when those not able to easily earn tourist dollars got a little pushy.

About what I say and do personally... hmmm, I've never been very ambitious, I learned very early on that 'more' was not going to make me happy. I was born into a very privileged life - an average family in the UK so I was born rich and with so many opportunities compared to most in the world. Tertiary education was free when I was there and I chose a subject that I enjoyed. After that I didn't have to work my bum off to provide the income I needed and I've made numerous sideways career moves and downshifts and so on rather than climb the ladder.

The easy reading philosopher Alain de Botton has written an interesting book called 'The Pleasures and Sorrows of Work' which includes discussion around the human need to work to be happy. I agree with that. I'd say I have a inherent work ethic and will always have a project even when not in paid work, but I'm not in the pursuit of a 'better job' if that means 'more wealth.' I define success by the relationships I have and the legacy I leave. As a secular person, I believe my purpose is not to harm the world and, if possible, to make the world better.

surfhb

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #47 on: November 16, 2017, 08:48:43 PM »
As a side note, the only thing separating the US and a Third World nation are the safety net features (socialism) we pay for with our taxes.
Do you really mean that? If Zimbabwe or Syria cloned our Social Security system and gave out food stamps, would it become just like the US?

Well, those are war torn nations at the moment and it was a generalization.   But without our current welfare system, yes, millions would be living and dying on the streets.   Not the kind of place I would want to live. 

BTW....Syria wasn't so awful of a place to live not so long ago. 

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #48 on: November 16, 2017, 10:42:52 PM »
As a side note, the only thing separating the US and a Third World nation are the safety net features (socialism) we pay for with our taxes.
Do you really mean that? If Zimbabwe or Syria cloned our Social Security system and gave out food stamps, would it become just like the US?

Well, those are war torn nations at the moment and it was a generalization.   But without our current welfare system, yes, millions would be living and dying on the streets.   Not the kind of place I would want to live. 

BTW....Syria wasn't so awful of a place to live not so long ago.
I'm sure many would be worse off without such programs but I don't believe it would reduce the US to the level of a 3rd world country. There are political, cultural, economic, and legal institutions that make a much bigger difference to the US's prosperity than welfare programs alone.

Regarding Syria, part of its problems was it lacked durable institutions to prevent its disintegration. Its modest prosperity prior to the Arab Spring proved to be quite fragile because of its institutional deficits.

Regarding the specific assertion millions would die without the current social welfare system, I found only one example here of a US famine occurring prior to the establishment of the modern social welfare system during the 20th century (~1000 fatalities which took place on a remote Alaskan island starting in 1878). If a much poorer US managed to almost entirely avoid famine throughout nearly all of its history, I doubt the present-day (and much wealthier) US would struggle, even without the presence of 20th century social welfare reforms.

surfhb

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #49 on: November 16, 2017, 11:39:22 PM »
As a side note, the only thing separating the US and a Third World nation are the safety net features (socialism) we pay for with our taxes.
Do you really mean that? If Zimbabwe or Syria cloned our Social Security system and gave out food stamps, would it become just like the US?

Well, those are war torn nations at the moment and it was a generalization.   But without our current welfare system, yes, millions would be living and dying on the streets.   Not the kind of place I would want to live. 

BTW....Syria wasn't so awful of a place to live not so long ago.
I'm sure many would be worse off without such programs but I don't believe it would reduce the US to the level of a 3rd world country. There are political, cultural, economic, and legal institutions that make a much bigger difference to the US's prosperity than welfare programs alone.

Regarding Syria, part of its problems was it lacked durable institutions to prevent its disintegration. Its modest prosperity prior to the Arab Spring proved to be quite fragile because of its institutional deficits.

Regarding the specific assertion millions would die without the current social welfare system, I found only one example here of a US famine occurring prior to the establishment of the modern social welfare system during the 20th century (~1000 fatalities which took place on a remote Alaskan island starting in 1878). If a much poorer US managed to almost entirely avoid famine throughout nearly all of its history, I doubt the present-day (and much wealthier) US would struggle, even without the presence of 20th century social welfare reforms.

Jesus!   I didn't mean it literally

Millions of people depend on SS and gov funded health care for their very survival.    Those people will be on the streets with no means to support themselves and no healthcare.....you know,  like third world nations ;)   

Doesn't really matter.   I think we all can agree that these safety nets makes our society a better one.   Yay for socialism !
« Last Edit: November 16, 2017, 11:43:32 PM by surfhb »