"You Do Not Have to be FI to be Free"

[ReadySetMillionaire]

I listened to a recent episode of Radical Personal Finance this morning.  The podcast episode is here -- https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/645-the-power-of-choosing-not-to-retire/id896153632?i=1000440096057

Joshua had a ninety minute discussion regarding why a person should *not* retire.  I did not agree with some of what he said, but I thought it was interesting.

He started with the premise that, for the FI community, most people do not actually "retire" in the traditional sense. He stated that a person with the motivation and discipline to retire by 35 is not just going to stop. He acknowledged this pretty squarely, so I think he okay with FI, but not RE.

His overall point, though, was that "you do not have to be FI to be free." More specifically, you do not need FI money to do what you want to do in early retirement. He discussed how different the economy is now, that you should work in an informational sector rather than a manual labor sector, and that the economy lets you be more independent now more than ever. Why are you doing something you hate doing? Why do you think you need to retire early to do this?

The endgame to him is that we can improve society via the family unit. Families could accumulate generational wealth that could take care of everyone's end of life care, education for generations, etc.

I thought it was an interesting discussion, and it's something I've thought about for a long time as well.  I could have plugged away at an old job for 12ish years, but I didn't like it, and now I love what I'm doing.

I think the podcast is worth a listen.

[Cool Friend]

So the idea is you can be free by getting a job you love in the informational sector?

[ReadySetMillionaire]

So the idea is you can be free by getting a job you love in the informational sector?

His point in that regard was that you cannot continue working, long term, in a manual labor job (flooring, roofing, tiling, etc.).

[Buffaloski Boris]

I’ll have to listen to the podcast. My interest is now piqued.

Speaking for myself, I’m a yuuuuuge fan of FI. RE, notsomuch. I believe that having enough money to be able to pull chocks on a crappy job or personal situation is critically important. Do you need enough to never work another day? Who knows. Nice to be in the position where you can simply walk out and go bike or ski for the rest of your life if you so choose. Can’t imagine I would go that path but having the power to do so is very motivating.

[FIREstache]

I'm not going to bother listening to another talking head who thinks they are an authority on the subject.

I've been FI for a few years, and I like my job, have a lot of flexibility and independence without much disruption, and not too many meetings, but despite how well I have it, I definitely don't feel "free".   I will need to FIRE to truly feel "free".

[use2betrix]

So the idea is you can be free by getting a job you love in the informational sector?

His point in that regard was that you cannot continue working, long term, in a manual labor job (flooring, roofing, tiling, etc.).

So the understanding is that all people in manual labor jobs do not enjoy it...?

Not everyone has the mental capacity, nor desire, to get a job in the informational sector.

[mastrr]

The endgame to him is that we can improve society via the family unit. Families could accumulate generational wealth that could take care of everyone's end of life care, education for generations, etc.

this would assumes that those people have a good moral structure to want to help society and their family.

[effigy98]

I listened to a recent episode of Radical Personal Finance this morning.  The podcast episode is here -- https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/645-the-power-of-choosing-not-to-retire/id896153632?i=1000440096057
Why are you doing something you hate doing? Why do you think you need to retire early to do this?

Because things I enjoy doing do not pay much of an income if anything at all. I HATE working for the man, in a stupid office full of politics and backstabbing, talking to people who take a lot and give little, but it pays REALLY well and worth the freedom later.

[Ynari]

Interesting to see the other posts, since perspective differs if you like what you do or not. I am definitely in the camp "No FI, but Free" - I'm transitioning to part-time and still living the life of "luxury". As mid-20-somethings with in-demand STEM backgrounds, our primary goal is balance, not ER. I teach, he codes. We can't imagine not having something like that to fill some hours of the week, but 40-60 hours is too much. It's nice to be able to work 30 hours per week and not have to worry about money.

The family unit perspective is also interesting. In general, I value individual choice/just giving money to those who need it, but in particular, signaling values like education is useful (i.e. setting up a trust that funds education appears to be about "I'm mandating what my grandchildren do with this money" but it's more about "I'm signalling that I think my grandchildren can benefit from a good education"). Since SO and I plan to work for longer than we need, we may end up funding some nieces and nephews through education - and while $10,000 may be $10,000 whether we pay it to the niece or to the school, signaling that we value education and want her to do well is the primary goal, in a sense.

[Bernard]

Condensed . . . "if you love what you do for a living, you don't have to work another day of your life."
I followed that path in the late '90s. Make good money but hated the job. Walked out and make one of my hobbies my source of income. It's less than I earned before, but I enjoy every day.

[RyanAtTanagra]

Condensed . . . "if you love what you do for a living, you don't have to work another day of your life."
I followed that path in the late '90s. Make good money but hated the job. Walked out and make one of my hobbies my source of income. It's less than I earned before, but I enjoy every day.

Or for some, taking what you love and turning it into a job is the fastest and surest way to ruin the shit out of a hobby.

[MrThatsDifferent]

I’m quite happy to become FI and RE as quickly as possible. There’s a whole world to explore.

[soccerluvof4]

I’m quite happy to become FI and RE as quickly as possible. There’s a whole world to explore.

Agreed!

[Zette]

Ironic that many in the MMM community take the opposite path — earn their stash in the tech sector then retire to doing the manual labor of handyman type side hustles.

[NWOutlier]

I have a take on this; let me know your thoughts.

I think Josh from RPF is stating the same thing most of us do; "what will you retire to" -- the word "retire" causes most of these discussions, so maybe we need a different word someday... but - let's pretend I had my "number" so I'm FI.... I could go donate my time to my kids school everyday every year... it's work, I'm not paid for it, but it improves the community.... as others say, they may have a blog that makes minimal money, to something substantial... so - the "outside community" assumes 'you're still working and earning income'....

the discussion points go on and on and on... maybe we should consider a new acronym? (or just remove the work retire)... when we are young living at home - we may work doing chores around the house for an allowance (depending on parents for income based on work)... then we move to a 'job' - where we do chores and we get an allowance, oh wait, it's called 'income now'..... that's were we stop, but - we continually "depend" on the "go somewhere, do something to receive compensation"... when FI, you may work, you may donate your time, you may go fishing 1week to 2 months a year... I honestly think the FI part is the most important... like you all say, it gives options, choice, opportunity, etc...   

so - based on my understanding - anyone that has "FIRE'd" but still does "something" - it just makes sense to me, cause they are doing something they want to do... it could be a job, it could be walmart greeter, it could be fishing, it could be blogging, it could be playing video games streaming on some platform.... the point to the world is .... you grew past the dependency of being required to work for money.... your basics are covered and you can do WTHeck you want....

anyway - I don't post much - but - this subject is a consistent "poke" at the community, we should define it better so others can understand.. and maybe some of the words in "FIRE" may not convey the growth to the next level that you've all accomplished and some more to follow soon.


ok - I'm done - thanks for reading

Best Regards,

NWOutlier (steve)

[Wrenchturner]

you grew past the dependency of being required to work for money.... your basics are covered and you can do WTHeck you want....

Certainly that's at the heart of it, but it's still a bit of a grey area.  I think that's the first step of Mustachianism, is to make your finances less "grey", more predictable, make your spending consistent and mostly only necessary, have good income in context of your spending, have faith in your plan and your choices, etc.

I'd love to work one day less per week.  Four days would be great for my work-life balance, it would be clearly under half of my waking hours committed to work and work-related tasks.  I hate work on Thursday afternoons but I look forward to it on Sunday nights.  I generally enjoy working; most of my discomfort comes from working for someone else, rather than my own business, but I know this is mostly a psychological artifact of some kind.  There are many advantages to working for someone else. 

Ultimately, however, I think a big part of FIRE is really about aging with decreasing risk.  No one wants to die in poverty, it's much better to die with too much money.

[socalrider]

This is a good discussion.  I'm new to MMM, love the frugality/responsibility ethos, but have been slightly repelled by the idea that one's goal ought to be to drop out of society in the middle of one's prime working years.  I understand that this is a simplification/generalization, but still...

I'm lucky enough to have learned that doing work that you're good at, believe in, and get paid well for is really rewarding.  It takes a lot of hard work, lucky breaks, and clear thinking to get to that point.  I could never stay in a job for more than 2 years 'cause I hated the corporate cubicle world; thanks to high savings rates and frugal living I was able to drop out a couple of times doing volunteer work, frugal travel, and grad school :)  Those were great experiences I'll never forget, but I'm very happy to have re-entered the workforce and found a way to do it happily in a way that lets me spend time with my family, do interesting work that I deeply believe in, not have a boss, and make a healthy multiple of what I did before. 

I guess my point is that the frugality part of things is so powerful not just because it allows you to "retire early", but because not having a huge monthly nut means you have the freedom to find ways to more deeply engage with society than you would otherwise.  And don't give up on the possibility of making lots of money doing something you love. 

[HenryDavid]

If you define "drop out of society" as "quit mindlessly consuming because it's what you see all around you" . . ..
then, the sooner the better.
There are other aspects of society that nobody wants to drop out of, I figure. Communities, families, those parts.
But the consumption part is a really huge, visible, part that takes up a lot of space. That's the kind of dropping-out this blog focuses on, I figure.

[undercover]

I agree in general. I don't really like labels.

Independence and retirement is different to everyone. I believe you can feel just as independent at certain jobs as you can running your own business or even traveling the world. At some point it will hit you that you aren't as free as you ever hoped to be because true freedom doesn't exist. You're not as much in control as you think you are. Freedom is too highly valued in general I think.

Yes it's unlikely that people geared towards solving huge problems are going to sit still once they quit the job they've been working to get out of. Traveling alone isn't going to cut it. Tending to the garden isn't going to cut it. Getting in peak physical shape isn't going to cut it. There's got to be some broader purpose for existence past leaving outgrowing whatever it is you're leaving.

I do believe there's a paradox in choice which is when money creates so many options for you that you actually find it harder to make decisions and will at least at some point feel somewhat less free than when you had limited options. I've concluded that the more you search for freedom, the farther away it will feel because you generally just complicate life.

[John Galt incarnate!]

 At some point it will hit you that you aren't as free as you ever hoped to be because true freedom doesn't exist. You're not as much in control as you think you are.

 "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

[Wrenchturner]

I've been thinking a lot about this mechanism and how it's partly influenced by our economic structure. 

So you have garbagemen and plumbers who do undesirable work.  But those people(where I live anyway) get paid very well and are always in demand.  Further, there is a toughness and stoicism that permeates those groups to ensure they can tolerate this work.  If you can't do the work, you're deemed a coward, or weak-willed, at least in part.  So that's kind of interesting, as obviously we all appreciate garbage collection and indoor plumbing.  They've saved more lives than doctors.

Then you have people making travel videos and vlogs on youtube.  They probably make more than most workers, mostly due to economy of scale.  They appear to not be working, and they get to "do what they love".  But editing videos and travelling and turning yourself into a celebrity target all have their costs too.  And what do you do if it falls apart?  How many of them actually make it big in the first place?

Perhaps we need to frame our pursuits as "worthwhile", rather than being framed like a high-roller youtube gig or a low-ranking 9-5 job.

Instead of saying, "my job simply pays the bills and I'm counting down the days", we could try to build a bridge that connects the sh*tty parts of the job with the value it creates(good investment contributions, added skills for you, a challenge for you to take on, making the most of your prime working years).

At work we had a 70+ year old tractor driver who was gently forced to retire a couple years ago.  He confided in me that he was worried he would die in the next year with nothing to do.  We have a half dozen older guys at my work that work part time and seem pretty happy about it.

[FIREstache]

I’m quite happy to become FI and RE as quickly as possible. There’s a whole world to explore.

Agreed!

Agreed!  I'm looking forward to the freedom of FIRE, regardless of what the naysayers here say.  There have been plenty of FIREd people giving their feedback on this forum and similar ones, and I know retired people personally, and it's rare to hear anyone complaining about being retired!  I was just talking to my uncle who retired about a year ago.  He went from a high level IT job to doing very little in retirement and is very happy.  He only wishes he would have done it sooner, which seems to be the most common feedback I hear.

[frugalecon]

Really just ptf, but I will observe that one possibility with FI is to pursue what you identify as a vocation as opposed to simply a job.

[socalrider]

 At some point it will hit you that you aren't as free as you ever hoped to be because true freedom doesn't exist. You're not as much in control as you think you are.

 "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Dropping Goethe on us are you?  Well I'll raise you a great American philosopher:

"Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to lose." Kris Kristofferson

[Wrenchturner]

Really just ptf, but I will observe that one possibility with FI is to pursue what you identify as a vocation as opposed to simply a job.

What does 'ptf' mean?

[Wolfpack Mustachian]

Posting to follow

[MrThatsDifferent]

I’m quite happy to become FI and RE as quickly as possible. There’s a whole world to explore.

Agreed!

Agreed!  I'm looking forward to the freedom of FIRE, regardless of what the naysayers here say.  There have been plenty of FIREd people giving their feedback on this forum and similar ones, and I know retired people personally, and it's rare to hear anyone complaining about being retired!  I was just talking to my uncle who retired about a year ago.  He went from a high level IT job to doing very little in retirement and is very happy.  He only wishes he would have done it sooner, which seems to be the most common feedback I hear.

I play a sport with 3 guys who are retired and all 3 are so happy, none want to ever work again and one says, every time I ask him: every day is like Christmas.

[Cassie]

The freedom to make a choice is what’s important and not being trapped. I worked part time the past 7 years because I wanted to. I had no plans to quit but the university let all the part time people go and hired 9 month contract full time staff.

[Kay-Ell]

MMM talks about this in his blog post Money and Confidence are Interchangeable

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2018/03/09/money-and-confidence-are-interchangeable/

He concludes that with more confidence and greater risk tolerance spending he could have essentially skipped the early phase of his life in which he amassed a fortune large enough to support himself into perpetuity without ever earning another dollar.  That doing so was largely optional and that he could have been happily living a life very similar to the one he's living now from the beginning.  But that because he has only average amounts of confidence and an average tolerance for risk, he went the route of ensuring security through FI before "RE-ing" to do things he enjoyed and incidentally earn enough to cover his modest expenses.

[RyanAtTanagra]

That doing so was largely optional and that he could have been happily living a life very similar to the one he's living now from the beginning.

I do disagree with that though.  He's making that statement from a very different position than he would be in if he had skipped the tech career.  Right now he can do the things he does as he wishes, and with no worry.  If he was dependent on them for income, it would be a whole different ballgame.

There's another thread going on right now about how people who work in an office want to FIRE and play in their garden and cook from scratch and make their own clothes, while people that have had to do that to survive (our grandparents) would have much rather had a comfortable office job that paid for all those things.  Doing something by choice vs doing something because you have to are two VERY different things.  Another example being the person riding their bicycle to work in the rain.  The one that chose to leave their car at home and take the bike is having a good time/enjoying the challenge.  The person who can't afford a car, or who's car is broken down, is probably very much not.

[John Galt incarnate!]

I play a sport with 3 guys who are retired and all 3 are so happy, none want to ever work again and one says, every time I ask him: every day is like Christmas.

Before I FIREd  I was often absorbed  in a  reverie about what my life would be like in FIREtirement.

To those who asked me "What's  it  like to be FIREd?" I imagined my reply would be "Every day is like Sunday."

[Kay-Ell]

That doing so was largely optional and that he could have been happily living a life very similar to the one he's living now from the beginning.

I do disagree with that though.  He's making that statement from a very different position than he would be in if he had skipped the tech career.  Right now he can do the things he does as he wishes, and with no worry.  If he was dependent on them for income, it would be a whole different ballgame.

There's another thread going on right now about how people who work in an office want to FIRE and play in their garden and cook from scratch and make their own clothes, while people that have had to do that to survive (our grandparents) would have much rather had a comfortable office job that paid for all those things.  Doing something by choice vs doing something because you have to are two VERY different things.  Another example being the person riding their bicycle to work in the rain.  The one that chose to leave their car at home and take the bike is having a good time/enjoying the challenge.  The person who can't afford a car, or who's car is broken down, is probably very much not.

I agree with what you're saying.  The psychological freedom that comes with financial independence is priceless, and it's likely impossible for someone like MMM (who has enjoyed that psychological freedom for much of his adult life), to even really postulate how different his life would be without having had it for so long.  And I also think there's a very real reason he wrote what he did in the article I liked to.  It goes contrary to most of what his blog has been about and I don't think he wrote it for now reason.  I think after how ever many years of FIRE, that he's qualified to assert that his chosen path was at least partially unnecessary in achieving his ultimate goal of a happy life with freedom and independence.  He's not changing his blog from one preaching FIRE to one advocating working odd jobs here and there to cover one's modest expenses (perhaps someone should write that blog).  He is saying there's more than one valid way to achieve a full and happy life that optimizes one's time and values.  After over a decade of retirement (and parenthood) he's discovered that his ideal lifestyle includes dabbling in a lot of things that happen to make him money.  A little blogging, some youtube videos with his son, the occasional real estate or construction project, having a co-working space. None of those things require a net worth north of 1M, and for people who might discover the same thing about themselves, perhaps skipping the wealth accumulation stage and going straight to monetizing their hobbies right out of high school or college is the perfect choice?  Similarly, if a person exists out there, who's high paying job is a significant detriment to their mental and physical health, who's burning themselves out and wasting valuable decades of life in the pursuit of FIRE... well then the message that they might be happier cobbling together a living through perusing a variety of their hobbies part time might be the exact right message the too. 

I wasn't that person, but I did decide to cut down to part time work, and pursue more varied and interesting kinds of income streams, earlier rather than later in life.  No regrets here.  I could have held on to full time work for another 7-ish years and probably never had to work again.  Now it will probably be more like 11 or 12 years. But I work 2-3 hours a day on my schedule instead of 8-10 hours a day on someone else's schedule... so I end up ahead in terms of hours of free time to spend on living my best life, with the added bonus of getting to have it *now* :-)

[RyanAtTanagra]

That doing so was largely optional and that he could have been happily living a life very similar to the one he's living now from the beginning.

I do disagree with that though.  He's making that statement from a very different position than he would be in if he had skipped the tech career.  Right now he can do the things he does as he wishes, and with no worry.  If he was dependent on them for income, it would be a whole different ballgame.

There's another thread going on right now about how people who work in an office want to FIRE and play in their garden and cook from scratch and make their own clothes, while people that have had to do that to survive (our grandparents) would have much rather had a comfortable office job that paid for all those things.  Doing something by choice vs doing something because you have to are two VERY different things.  Another example being the person riding their bicycle to work in the rain.  The one that chose to leave their car at home and take the bike is having a good time/enjoying the challenge.  The person who can't afford a car, or who's car is broken down, is probably very much not.

I agree with what you're saying.  The psychological freedom that comes with financial independence is priceless, and it's likely impossible for someone like MMM (who has enjoyed that psychological freedom for much of his adult life), to even really postulate how different his life would be without having had it for so long.  And I also think there's a very real reason he wrote what he did in the article I liked to.  It goes contrary to most of what his blog has been about and I don't think he wrote it for now reason.  I think after how ever many years of FIRE, that he's qualified to assert that his chosen path was at least partially unnecessary in achieving his ultimate goal of a happy life with freedom and independence.  He's not changing his blog from one preaching FIRE to one advocating working odd jobs here and there to cover one's modest expenses (perhaps someone should write that blog).  He is saying there's more than one valid way to achieve a full and happy life that optimizes one's time and values.  After over a decade of retirement (and parenthood) he's discovered that his ideal lifestyle includes dabbling in a lot of things that happen to make him money.  A little blogging, some youtube videos with his son, the occasional real estate or construction project, having a co-working space. None of those things require a net worth north of 1M, and for people who might discover the same thing about themselves, perhaps skipping the wealth accumulation stage and going straight to monetizing their hobbies right out of high school or college is the perfect choice?  Similarly, if a person exists out there, who's high paying job is a significant detriment to their mental and physical health, who's burning themselves out and wasting valuable decades of life in the pursuit of FIRE... well then the message that they might be happier cobbling together a living through perusing a variety of their hobbies part time might be the exact right message the too. 

I wasn't that person, but I did decide to cut down to part time work, and pursue more varied and interesting kinds of income streams, earlier rather than later in life.  No regrets here.  I could have held on to full time work for another 7-ish years and probably never had to work again.  Now it will probably be more like 11 or 12 years. But I work 2-3 hours a day on my schedule instead of 8-10 hours a day on someone else's schedule... so I end up ahead in terms of hours of free time to spend on living my best life, with the added bonus of getting to have it *now* :-)

All good points on him offering an alternative viewpoint to the rest of his blog

[Cassie]

I know a few people that do part time work when young and never full time. Whatever makes people happy.

[Metalcat]

That doing so was largely optional and that he could have been happily living a life very similar to the one he's living now from the beginning.

I do disagree with that though.  He's making that statement from a very different position than he would be in if he had skipped the tech career.  Right now he can do the things he does as he wishes, and with no worry.  If he was dependent on them for income, it would be a whole different ballgame.

There's another thread going on right now about how people who work in an office want to FIRE and play in their garden and cook from scratch and make their own clothes, while people that have had to do that to survive (our grandparents) would have much rather had a comfortable office job that paid for all those things.  Doing something by choice vs doing something because you have to are two VERY different things.  Another example being the person riding their bicycle to work in the rain.  The one that chose to leave their car at home and take the bike is having a good time/enjoying the challenge.  The person who can't afford a car, or who's car is broken down, is probably very much not.

I agree with what you're saying.  The psychological freedom that comes with financial independence is priceless, and it's likely impossible for someone like MMM (who has enjoyed that psychological freedom for much of his adult life), to even really postulate how different his life would be without having had it for so long.  And I also think there's a very real reason he wrote what he did in the article I liked to.  It goes contrary to most of what his blog has been about and I don't think he wrote it for now reason.  I think after how ever many years of FIRE, that he's qualified to assert that his chosen path was at least partially unnecessary in achieving his ultimate goal of a happy life with freedom and independence.  He's not changing his blog from one preaching FIRE to one advocating working odd jobs here and there to cover one's modest expenses (perhaps someone should write that blog).  He is saying there's more than one valid way to achieve a full and happy life that optimizes one's time and values.  After over a decade of retirement (and parenthood) he's discovered that his ideal lifestyle includes dabbling in a lot of things that happen to make him money.  A little blogging, some youtube videos with his son, the occasional real estate or construction project, having a co-working space. None of those things require a net worth north of 1M, and for people who might discover the same thing about themselves, perhaps skipping the wealth accumulation stage and going straight to monetizing their hobbies right out of high school or college is the perfect choice?  Similarly, if a person exists out there, who's high paying job is a significant detriment to their mental and physical health, who's burning themselves out and wasting valuable decades of life in the pursuit of FIRE... well then the message that they might be happier cobbling together a living through perusing a variety of their hobbies part time might be the exact right message the too. 

I wasn't that person, but I did decide to cut down to part time work, and pursue more varied and interesting kinds of income streams, earlier rather than later in life.  No regrets here.  I could have held on to full time work for another 7-ish years and probably never had to work again.  Now it will probably be more like 11 or 12 years. But I work 2-3 hours a day on my schedule instead of 8-10 hours a day on someone else's schedule... so I end up ahead in terms of hours of free time to spend on living my best life, with the added bonus of getting to have it *now* :-)

Totally agree.

I often point out that Pete's working years were essentially unnecessary from a lifestyle and financial point of view.

That doesn't mean that FI doesn't have value, obviously reaching FI has huge enormous psychological value for people, but it isn't strictly necessary, it's a security blanket.

Everything in life is a trade off, and like EVERYTHING else in mustachianism, one needs to evaluate the cost and opportunity cost of seeking to reach FI before focusing on your best life.

For some people, a decade or so of full time work doing something you don't really love doing, is a reasonable trade off for the incomparable experience of being FI.

For others, like me, is sounds like a prison sentence and I'm 100% unwilling to even consider it.

Everyone is different, the trade offs that work for one person likely won't work for another. There is no one-size-fits-all formula for living your best life.

For those of us whose best lives include profitable projects, it's really important to evaluate the trade offs very very closely and not sell off some of our most valuable years to the pursuit of wealth we don't actually need.

[ReadySetMillionaire]

Very interesting discussion.

This podcast resonated with me, and for those who don't know my story on here, I am attorney that's about five year out of school.  I started one of those "should I take this job" threads, and that turned into a journal of sorts that now has almost 30,000 views: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/employment-dilemma-take-new-job/

Basically, I was at a small but locally prestigious white collar law firm and I didn't like the practice areas I was getting cornered into.  So I took a job with another solo, and that was a disaster and I left within three months.  This basically necessitated me starting my own firm last April.

Now, I'm not going to sit here and say life is perfectly roses -- I will probably be working 10-12 hours today servicing my clients and meeting their deadlines. But there is such an overwhelming degree of freedom involved. I designed my own letterhead, my own logo, my own business cards, my phone number, my phone answering service, my email, my website, etc. I've moved into a 600 square foot office in which I picked everything from floor to ceiling. The office screams "ME," albeit it's also very professional.

Best part is that I'm set to make at least more than double, and probably three times, what I was making when I was at that other firm. And that's with an unbelievable amount of freedom. Other than court hearings, I pick my own hours and come in or work from home whenever I want.

Other lawyers always tell me, "The best day to work is Saturday, because nobody will bother you." For me, EVERY DAY is Saturday.  I can tell my phone service to hold calls, close my emails, and not be bothered all day.  I come here to my oasis and can get completely absorbed in my work and forget the time -- something that never happened beforehand.

I am not technically FI -- not even close -- but I feel very free, free to the point that I almost certainly will not quit once I'm FI.

[Wrenchturner]

I wonder how much of the resentment towards working is really a resentment towards being an employee.  I definitely feel like I would care more about my vocation if I engaged in my own business within it rather than working for someone else.  Sounds like that was the case for OP.  Employers I've had definitely don't help me feel like a critical member, more like a commodity.  Of course, that makes them commodities as well.

[Kay-Ell]

Loving this discussion.  Something else I wanted to add is my discovery of the opportunity cost of working full time.  I'm not a software engineer, and at the height of my (short) career I was making about 75k.  Not bad for someone without a degree, but certainly not golden handcuff territory either.  I was laid off about 6 months before my target lean-FIRE date, with enough severance and PTO to carry me up to that date perfectly.  What I didn't realize was just how much opportunity to earn money I was losing out on, being employed full time.  Within a week of being gleefully "retired" I had 3 unsolicited offers for part or full time work.  I explored two of them for a while, and for the few months that I was doing both I was making about 7k per month working about 4 hours per day from home.  For those math enthusiasts out there... that's more than I had been making working full time.  I have a standing offer to do tech recruiting for a few companies, meaning if I chose to spend some time looking for candidates I could probably make up my old salary in commission with just a hand full of placements per year.  I've been diving into my real estate side hustle a little more and next year I expect to make about double what I made last year (part of this is due to me spending more time on it, but part of it is simply due to the progressive nature of reinvesting profits).  Over all I'd say I averaged working slightly less than 10 hours a week, and made a little over 80% of my full time salary last year.  If I chose to cultivate my income more, I could probably make more than double my old salary.

What I learned is that full time employment for someone like me, was actually a pretty inefficient way to earn a living.  What it did do is provide me with a lot of stability and predictability.  Learning to live without the stability has been really good for my personal growth.

[Wrenchturner]

I wonder how much of the resentment towards working is really a resentment towards being an employee.  I definitely feel like I would care more about my vocation if I engaged in my own business within it rather than working for someone else.  Sounds like that was the case for OP.  Employers I've had definitely don't help me feel like a critical member, more like a commodity.  Of course, that makes them commodities as well.

I didn't feel any resentment toward my job at all. Just the opposite. I loved what I did and felt fufilled by it. But it was also a time suck that took me away from doing other things I wanted to do. So getting to FI allowed me the freedom to choose between having to work or not. Resentment towards my job or employer didn't play any part in me wanting to be FI. Wanting RE, and the free time of being RE, was the catalyst to wanting FI.  I think wanting the free time away from work, even from part time work, if often a common reason people want to be FI rather than job or employer dissatisfaction.

There seems to be two conversations in this thread.  One about FIRE vs working generally, and one that involves fusing FIRE and working on your own terms while embracing risk.  I think the latter is my goal at the moment. 

[Wrenchturner]

Agreed, i think i misread your post a bit.

Next year I might try this freelance tradesman thing.  If I do, I'll be sure to start a journal here.  See if confidence is a good substitute for money!

[Wrenchturner]

Agreed, i think i misread your post a bit.

Next year I might try this freelance tradesman thing.  If I do, I'll be sure to start a journal here.  See if confidence is a good substitute for money!

I was talking about my own experiences as well as my own perspective and I know others disagree and I'm OK with that. I've been FI and RE a long time - after taking lots of career risks like 2 very long (2 years for example) sabbaticals and choosing lower paid but more fulfilling jobs. So my perspective on the freedom of FI (whether RE or not) is probably skewed pretty heavily because I've lived it from both sides - taking risks with lifestyle/career choices before I was FI and knowing I HAD to earn some kind of a living, and making them after I was FI. They felt very different to me in terms of freedom. However I strongly encourage people to follow their pasdions, take risks, and do what they want even if it pushes FI and RE further away.

I wonder if age is a factor; that is to say, the work world has changed a lot in say 40 years.  Work/life balance seems to be a bigger part of the conversation now, but also the idea of working at a 9-5 career that yields a pension is far more unlikely.  So perhaps FIRE and work are starting to blur a bit more societally, not to mention low interest rates promoting more risk taking now, and technology allowing monetization of far more abstracted ideas.

Just some speculation on my part, I don't know how long you've been retired.

[alewpanda]

I feel like most everyone else interpreted the OP's description of the podcast differently.

I have listened to Radical Personal Finance before, and a common theme in Josh's discussion is that "freedom" doesn't necessarily just mean a financial number.  Freedom might mean being self-sufficient for your food sources, able to choose to leave a job without distress and take your time to find another, feeling mentally competent to handle challenges and develop new skills.  "Freedom" in Josh's perspective doesn't have to wait...freedom can be found in a pretty short time frame if you can define what 'freedom' means to you.  It can start long before one quits an undesirable job and replaces it with hobbies/side gigs/etc.


I'm not sure that he (only) meant that freedom could be reached even if you stay working......

[pudding]

I have a sweet setup at the moment.

I bought a house with 8 bedrooms 11 years back. Live in part with 3 room mates upstairs. Rent out the basement suite, and all my mortgage etc... is paid from that.

I have a one man show handyman business and good reputation, I charge $60 (Canadian dollars) an hour and I like what I do. I'd be pissed off if I couldn't get my tools out of my van and make stuff.

I need to work 3 days a week for 48 weeks of the year to live the way I do and have 4 weeks off per year.