"You're lucky" Responses

[Happy in CA]

I commend you, Trailrated, for the apology, as well as for having the courage and self-reflection to post this topic and act upon the feedback of others.  The tenth step in recovery ends with "and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it."  It helps you far more than the person to whom the apology was made.  When I read the post originally, I thought I wouldn't like you, but I changed my mind - I know I would like you.

One other observation:  I often wish people good luck, more often than I say "you're lucky" (but I use that phrase too).  I don't think anyone is offended by being wished good luck, and when I say it, what I mean is "I hope this (decision, new job, etc.) works out well for you."  When I say "you're lucky," I usually mean it as a compliment - i.e. I admire the outcome you have achieved.  Luck is not a bad thing to have, and it doesn't mean you don't work hard!

[sheepstache]

Congrats to OP, no matter how people feel about it we can agree it sounds like you got some good insights out of the experience.

I say "Thanks, my plans have been working out really well"

I like that.  It gets the message across that your position is the result of deliberate actions you've taken without throwing it in their face.

When faced with these situations I'm cognizant that other people may very well not understand the difference between our actions.  I think that's where the struggle comes for many of us.  We want to be gracious, but we also want the record to be straight so that other people also have a chance at bettering themselves.  If you shrug and agree that it's all down to luck, it's lying by omission and doing a disservice to everyone who has a chance to do better if only they knew.

Some people when they say "you're lucky" mean, "I'm unhappy with my life but don't want to change so I'm mad at you."
Others mean, "I really want to know how to be like you but we're both adults so I'm embarrassed to ask straight out."

It was more charmingly done by Will Smith in The Pursuit of Happyness.  He sees a guy get out of an amazing car and says, "I've got just two questions for you.  What do you do?  And how do you do it?"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwTyOAsP4lI

[Juju]

Interesting comments and something to ponder in there.  Thinking back over the way that I myself use the term 'lucky' it is given as a non-literal comment that has more of the meaning 'well done you' or perhaps, as said above 'i admire what you have'. 

I have said this to a co worker who only works four days a week.  On the Thursday afternoon before she finishes her week (and the rest of us slog on though Friday) she has often been told how lucky she is.  Of course, we all know that she took a cut in her pay in order to do this and luck wasn't really an element.  In a similar vein, if someone is going on holiday, we are all likely to tell them that they are lucky, but it's not like we are implying that they can only do it because they won some unexpected money. 

Of course, with this use it is in a positive tone and atmosphere.  If someone told me that i'm lucky in a normal/happy tone i'd just take it as a throwaway phrase with no deep meaning and thank them.  If someone came up to me and said it in a nasty tone, that's when i'd be likely to respond with something close to the OP's response.  So much depends on context, tone, relationship etc.

[Malaysia41]

Props to OP on the self-reflection & apology.  You and other commenters have made me re-think my reaction to the 'you're lucky' comment too. 

While in my response I did acknowledge the 'lucky' part of our stache-building (I don't think I was so overtly as much of a dick as OP :) )- but as I reflect I realize I probably projected a 'holier-than-thou' or 'I achieved FIRE so give me credit damnit - waaah' vibe in my response none-the-less. 

Perhaps my future response will be, 'yeah, luck, capitalizing on opportunities, planning, patience, diligence. It's a mix.'  IDK.  Still working on it. 

Various sub-texts dangle beneath the comment, 'You're lucky'.   I think the key is to stay consistent with my values and respond thoughtfully as best as I can.

[Daisy]

I am very lucky, and not afraid to admit it.   I also express my gratefulness very quietly, because I don't want to appear to be gloating.  This can all change in a moment.

+1

Beautifully said. Let's not get too high on ourselves and realize things out of our control can derail our plans at any moment. Having gloated about your "lucky" situation may come crashing back to you in unexpected ways.

Luck = blessings from above + wisdom to appreciate it + a lot of hard work

[MrsPete]

He didn't know what to say and just turned around and left. Part of me felt awesome, but I also felt like a huge asshole. Maybe it would have been better to keep my mouth shut... but then again maybe calling him out will get him to do something to fix his own situation. How do you handle these things?

While I agree with your theme, your delivery could've been more tactful.  Had you phrased your response in a more tactful way, your friend might've become interested in how you've achieved financial success and might've learned something.  Instead, it sounds like you both felt bad about the encounter. 

I also agree completely with the posters who've commented that every last one of us has been lucky -- otherwise, we wouldn't have reached this point.  Most of us were born with healthy bodies, good brains, families who at least didn't beat us, and a society that provides educational opportunities and medical care to all.  Everyone doesn't get those breaks.  That doesn't negate the hard work that we've put in, but the reality is that most of us were born with a "leg up". 

As for what people mean when they say, "You're lucky", I think a lot of you are reading a whole lot into that phrase.  I strongly suspect that most people who'd say, "You're lucky" in this situation just don't know what to say, so they blurt out something that's kind of stupid.  To think that it means they're unhappy with their lives, or that they're resentful, or whatever is attributing a great deal of motive to a simple statement. 

[arebelspy]

Props to OP on the self-reflection & apology. 

+1. 

[Adventine]

Hey, OP, it's great that you were big enough to come back and admit you could have handled things better then you had the original talk with your friend about luck vs. hard work. I also tend to take on a "holier than thou" attitude when it comes to money. I'm trying to be better than that. So your example is really encouraging.

[fartface]

"I find the harder I work, the luckier I get."  -Thomas Jefferson

Or, I think this is his original quote:
 "I am a great believer in luck, and I find the harder I work, the more I have of it."


Ironically, Jefferson died deeply in debt.

[G-dog]

OP here, after taking the weekend to think about it more and reading the great responses here I decided to apologize this morning to the person this post was in reference to. I don't think he remembered what I was apologizing for, which is slightly entertaining because I spent the whole weekend reflecting on it.

For those that called me out on being a dick, I think it was needed so thanks for pointing it out.  I was frustrated at the time of the conversation. I am only human but getting called out is sometimes needed.

Impressive - thank you for setting a good example! I tend toward the judgmental, sometimes tempered by empathy - but the gut response is often negative vs. positive. Work in progress. So thanks for not only reflecting on how you want to behave, but for coming back and updating us with your decision.

[Leisured]

I interpret the remark 'Your'e lucky' in this topic to mean that the other person thinks you are lucky in having the right temperament to plan, save, invest.

[Jags4186]

One of my friends says "I'm lucky" and I would just tell them that hey I made choices you didn't want to make that's why I have X can afford to do Y.

A girl I worked with once said I was very lucky and I just felt sad for her. She was raised by a single father. Was pregnant at 18. Never went to college. I think her boyfriend hit her once. I feel bad for people like that...and I guess from that view point I am lucky.


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[nereo]

I have a friend who's a professional illustrator. It drives him crazy when people say, "You're so lucky you can draw like that." They see a talent that was bestowed by random chance, and don't know about the thousands of hours he's spent practicing drawing, every day of his life since childhood. Not to mention the years of working shit jobs to pay the bills until he had built enough of a reputation to make a full-time living from art.

I've encountered something similar my entire adult life.  I've been a competitive swimmer since I was 4 years old.  From age 8 to 22 I trained 6 days a week, 12 months a year.  We were in the water every morning at 4:30am, and then back in the water at 4:00pm.   I swam in college (NCAA) balancing training, away meets and a double-major and I still graduated in 4 years.  I went to bed early when my non-swimming friends went out to the bars until 3am.

But I periodically got comments about how "lucky" I was to be such a "natural athlete" and how "unfair" it was that I could swim as well as I could.  People have made jealous comments to me about how it wasn't fair that I was so fit and didn't put on the weight that so many people do when they went away to college (the "freshman-15").  The comment that bothered me the most was how "easy" swimming (and most other athletic things) was for me.

I consider myself extremely lucky - lucky to have had parents who supported me, lucky to have had a mother who took me to dozens of swim meets every year, making long drives and sitting for hours around a humid rec center just to watch me swim an event that was over in 60 seconds. But I don't consider my swimming ability to be "lucky".
[rant over]

[rocksinmyhead]

I interpret someone saying "You're so lucky" not so much as "You don't deserve your position in life," as "I envy you and it makes me feel bad about myself." Which is really no one's problem but their own.

^ This.

It's a vague one, and depends on how it was said. If it was said dismissively "oh you're just lucky," or with jealousy "screw you, you lucky person" I can understand being miffed.

If it was "oh great, you're really lucky, enjoy your life" I doubt he would have meant offence, probably just meaning "cool, enjoy your current prosperity"

+1 to both of the above. great way to think of it!

I say "Thanks, my plans have been working out really well"

Luck does play a huge role. You were born with good genes or at least not horrible. A powerful enough brain to make good choices. Plans and goals worked out. You could have got really sick, bad accident, robbed or scammed.

Hard work and planning is probably more important than luck, but Bill Gates would not be as rich as he is if he was born 10 years latter.

I think this is my favorite of all the responses given! this really is how I see it, at least for me. sure, I have been smart enough to make decent plans, and disciplined enough to stick to them, but at the same time I HAVE been really lucky that they're worked out really well... a lot of external things could have gone worse and derailed said plans.

sometimes if it's real obvious what the issue is I will come out and say it (not in a mean way). I have a coworker around my age who started around the same time as me, and bought a house around the time I paid off my student loans. somehow the loans came up in conversation and she mentioned that she was super jealous I had paid mine off (so I guess not quite the same thing, she didn't say I was "lucky"). I said, "dude! I'm super jealous that you just BOUGHT A HOUSE!" like, obviously we both would love to have our loans paid off AND buy a house, but money is finite, and we just chose different priorities!

[Kaspian]

I like to travel to some pretty exotic places.  It's what I save all my money for.  (Well, before I discovered FIRE anyway.  I still travel, but a little less and tone down the costs.) 

So when people (who make as much as me but waste all their money on granite countertops and SUVs) say, "You're lucky to travel so much!" It really enrages me.  ...Like I won my airline tickets in the mail or something instead of working for every penny and carefully planning the journey.

Likewise with the "You're lucky, you don't have to think about that," when mentioning fatty foods.  Hell, I walk everywhere I go, don't eat crap, and workout twice a week!   It's not luck!!

Here's what I'm lucky for:

- Lucky I was born in a first world country.
- Lucky I had a pretty good family growing up and they're still half-decent.
- Lucky I still have all my limbs.
- Lucky I never got a major disease.
- Lucky I never got killed in an auto accident.
- Lucky I found $60 on the sidewalk one winter day.

Umm...  That's really about it.  Everything else I worked for, planned, and executed.

Luck isn't a real thing.  You can't quantify it.  People talk about it like it's tangible.  Ummm...  No.  I don't believe in it, angels, or leprechauns.  (Ok, maybe I do believe secretly in leprechauns. Aren't they the ones who hoard all the luck?)

[Elderwood17]

When told I am lucky, I now just smile and say "I try to be!" As good naturedly as possible and leave it at that.  As soon to try to point out how many years of schooling it took to get my professional degree, how tough school was after having two kids in undergrad, etc, but it does no good.

[NumberJohnny5]

I think part of the issue is that we're so literal. If someone says "You're lucky" in a non-mean/judgmental way, I think an appropriate response would be "We are very fortunate."

Yeah, I'd be a bit upset if someone claimed we're "lucky" that we get to travel as much as we do, take off as much time for our newborn baby as we are (6 months and counting!), etc., when they could do the exact same thing. Yes, some luck was involved in getting to live our lives the way we want. It took a similar amount of luck for them to afford pay-tv, expensive mobile phone plans, a new car (or two), brand-new clothes bought at retail, etc.

But, if I can reword what they say to "You're very fortunate (to realize what's truly important to you, and focus on making it happen)" then yes, we are very fortunate indeed. And a lot of times, it's what they meant anyways.

[odput]

Here's what I'm lucky for:

- Lucky I was born in a first world country.
- Lucky I had a pretty good family growing up and they're still half-decent.
- Lucky I still have all my limbs.
- Lucky I never got a major disease.
- Lucky I never got killed in an auto accident.

These are exactly the things I mean when I say "no more than most (here)"...thanks for articulating that.

Yeah, I'd be a bit upset if someone claimed we're "lucky" that we get to travel as much as we do, take off as much time for our newborn baby as we are (6 months and counting!), etc., when they could do the exact same thing. Yes, some luck was involved in getting to live our lives the way we want. It took a similar amount of luck for them to afford pay-tv, expensive mobile phone plans, a new car (or two), brand-new clothes bought at retail, etc.

This is an interesting perspective...maybe next time someone says "you're so lucky to travel/retire/take leave" the response should be "you're so lucky you have cable/new cars/other mundane expenses".  Or did I just circle back to being a dick?

[rubybeth]

Yeah, I've gotten this before. And the thing is, we are kind of lucky to have gotten where we are, but we do also make choices when unlucky things happen. I was 23 years old when I figured out that the job I was doing wasn't going to make me enough money to live comfortably, so I figured I should get a graduate degree to earn more, and I did the math to see if spending the money on grad school would then earn me an appropriate amount of money to afford the loan plus the lifestyle, and it did. I didn't realize at the time that this made me a freakin' financial genius compared to most people my age, but man, most 23 year olds don't think like this. And then I got lucky and got a slightly better paying job than I anticipated after grad school. But we've had bumps in the road, too, like more school debt than we should have taken (so we aggressively paid it off), and DH had some school failures that were rough (so he got a job and decided on a different path for grad school), and both of our cars needed replacing within a couple years (so we paid cash for used cars), and my salary was frozen last year (so we look for other ways to save more/earn more), and other unlucky things. I think this goes to back to the MMM philosophy of optimism. We could have chosen to let those unlucky things completely derail us and ruin our lives, but instead, we took them as opportunities and moved onward and upward. It's kind of like attitudes about dieting: some people eat one piece of chocolate while on their diet and think "I've ruined it all! I might as well eat a whole pizza now!" and then do, but some people build in the chocolate and think "This is one small piece, and I'll have a salad for dinner and work out later" and then move on. It's really attitudinal.

[Dances With Fire]

I like to travel to some pretty exotic places.  It's what I save all my money for.  (Well, before I discovered FIRE anyway.  I still travel, but a little less and tone down the costs.) 

So when people (who make as much as me but waste all their money on granite countertops and SUVs) say, "You're lucky to travel so much!" It really enrages me.  ...Like I won my airline tickets in the mail or something instead of working for every penny and carefully planning the journey.

Likewise with the "You're lucky, you don't have to think about that," when mentioning fatty foods.  Hell, I walk everywhere I go, don't eat crap, and workout twice a week!   It's not luck!!

Here's what I'm lucky for:

- Lucky I was born in a first world country.
- Lucky I had a pretty good family growing up and they're still half-decent.
- Lucky I still have all my limbs.
- Lucky I never got a major disease.
- Lucky I never got killed in an auto accident.
- Lucky I found $60 on the sidewalk one winter day.

Umm...  That's really about it.  Everything else I worked for, planned, and executed.

Luck isn't a real thing.  You can't quantify it.  People talk about it like it's tangible.  Ummm...  No.  I don't believe in it, angels, or leprechauns.  (Ok, maybe I do believe secretly in leprechauns. Aren't they the ones who hoard all the luck?)

^ That! + 1 

I was also truly lucky to have parents (and especially grand parents) who knew the value of hard work, thrift, and some common sense. Oh, and be happy with what you do have and have some good clean fun while you're at it...

Cheers! -Dances

[Luck12]

Likewise with the "You're lucky, you don't have to think about that," when mentioning fatty foods.  Hell, I walk everywhere I go, don't eat crap, and workout twice a week!   It's not luck!!

Here's what I'm lucky for:

- Lucky I was born in a first world country.
- Lucky I had a pretty good family growing up and they're still half-decent.
- Lucky I still have all my limbs.
- Lucky I never got a major disease.
- Lucky I never got killed in an auto accident.
- Lucky I found $60 on the sidewalk one winter day.

Umm...  That's really about it.  Everything else I worked for, planned, and executed.

Uh no, that's not about it.  You and many others left out being in the top 25% of intelligence (most likely judging from the eloquence of most here, might even say top 15%) and likely being born with a much higher than average propensity to delay and/or not seek gratification.

Also, so you walk, eat right, and work out twice a week.  Big deal, a lot of people do a lot more and still struggle with weight.   

Obviously there are many things you can do to improve your lot in life, but I think this forum has a tendency to overestimate locus of control and underestimate luck.   Think about it:  Genetics and family background/circumstances comprise at least 50% of outcomes.   

Personally, I know I'm lucky.  Not to brag, but I have never struggled with weight, school came easily, had great parents/family, math came naturally which led to a lucrative career, and am naturally a big saver.    I didn't work for any of these things.         

[Allen]

We are lucky.  We are lucky we were taught or have been in a situation to learn the truth about finances.  We are lucky we have developed enough discipline and resistance against our own culture to implement those changes.  We are lucky that things have continued to work as they had in the past so it hasn't invalidated our strategies.  We are lucky to be generally in good health, which is often caused by many of the other changes we make (Eating healthy real foods and exercising in our commuting). 

Many people around the world don't even have the opportunity or education to make the tough decisions to do what we do; an option you don't know exists isn't an option.

So yes, we ARE lucky, whether we want to chalk it all up to our own hard work and good decisions or not

[Daisy]

Yeah, I'd be a bit upset if someone claimed we're "lucky" that we get to travel as much as we do, take off as much time for our newborn baby as we are (6 months and counting!), etc., when they could do the exact same thing. Yes, some luck was involved in getting to live our lives the way we want. It took a similar amount of luck for them to afford pay-tv, expensive mobile phone plans, a new car (or two), brand-new clothes bought at retail, etc.

This is an interesting perspective...maybe next time someone says "you're so lucky to travel/retire/take leave" the response should be "you're so lucky you have cable/new cars/other mundane expenses".  Or did I just circle back to being a dick?

Yeah, I like that too.

I got a "you're so lucky" comment from a friend on a ski trip this year. I managed to optimize what was a one week group ski trip into two weeks for a similar cost. I bought a season pass like everyone else, got to stay the first week at a friend's condo, spent the same on flights as I was already there, and have my own equipment. I didn't want to go into all of this with him, so I just smiled back. But he kept repeating it and it started to get annoying.

I guess a better answer would be to tell him that I am an optimizing freak (true and self-deprecating so as not to insult him) and figured out how to do it at a similar cost.

I know other people that want to go skiing for several weeks and plan three separate across the country trips to go. What a waste! I'm already planning my ski adventures for next year and saying no to some trips because I don't want to waste money flying back and forth and going to a mountain that doesn't accept the season pass. I will get the same number of ski days in at a third of their cost.

[NumberJohnny5]

Yeah, I'd be a bit upset if someone claimed we're "lucky" that we get to travel as much as we do, take off as much time for our newborn baby as we are (6 months and counting!), etc., when they could do the exact same thing. Yes, some luck was involved in getting to live our lives the way we want. It took a similar amount of luck for them to afford pay-tv, expensive mobile phone plans, a new car (or two), brand-new clothes bought at retail, etc.

This is an interesting perspective...maybe next time someone says "you're so lucky to travel/retire/take leave" the response should be "you're so lucky you have cable/new cars/other mundane expenses".  Or did I just circle back to being a dick?

What I'm working on (and likely will for the rest of my life) is internally re-wording what others say. I'm a very literal person. It drives me a bit crazy when I hear a teacher tell a student "Tell Susie you're sorry" because, well, what if Julie's NOT sorry? To say sorry means you feel sorrow. Makes as much sense as saying "Stop being angry" or "Be happy NOW dammit!" I don't want to turn my kids into weirdos like me (though a bit of weird is fine), so I explain they don't have to be sorry...but perhaps it'd be a good idea to apologize.

Anyways, I would simply try to reword the initial "You're lucky" into "You're fortunate", which is something I can wholeheartedly agree with and not go into a mini tirade about how we're no more lucky than they are. I can agree with fortunate, and if they're paying close attention they may notice the different terminology used. If I simply agree to being lucky, then I'm almost doing them a disservice. I'm acknowledging that our fortune is completely out of their grasp, when it isn't.

Now, if they push the issue, and/or say it in a demeaning way, I'd have no problem pointing out that I use my luck for retirement savings and vacations while they use their luck on watching HGTV reruns and a new SUV.

How you say it is important too. Nicely stating you choose to spend your luck/money on different things because that's what you value most would probably be taken better than "You stupid poopy-pants, why the hell are you wasting money on flashy cars and new clothes??!!"

[Rewdoalb]

Uh no, that's not about it.  You and many others left out being in the top 25% of intelligence (most likely judging from the eloquence of most here, might even say top 15%) and likely being born with a much higher than average propensity to delay and/or not seek gratification.

Also, so you walk, eat right, and work out twice a week.  Big deal, a lot of people do a lot more and still struggle with weight.   

Obviously there are many things you can do to improve your lot in life, but I think this forum has a tendency to overestimate locus of control and underestimate luck.   Think about it:  Genetics and family background/circumstances comprise at least 50% of outcomes.   

Personally, I know I'm lucky.  Not to brag, but I have never struggled with weight, school came easily, had great parents/family, math came naturally which led to a lucrative career, and am naturally a big saver.    I didn't work for any of these things.       

Luck12, I'd first like to point out that your username was literally created for this moment.  Well done.

I agree with the way that you summarize the role of luck, but would nuance what you said with what others have referenced earlier in the thread (MoneyCat for example), which is essentially that the person saying "you're lucky" has often been blessed with the same amount of luck (Inherited things like intelligence, physical health, family). 

They may have even worked hard to make use of these lucky opportunities.  For example, you can bolster your intelligence by studying hard, your naturally given health by eating right/exercise, and your happy upbringing by building your own good family.

That said, the clear difference between the OP and the one accusing the OP of being lucky, is this tendency toward saving/mustachianism, which you refer to as "naturally a big saver" and chalk it up to luck, but I believe that to be oversimplified. 

Why?  It is human nature to want more - more stuff, more money, more happiness.  But as humans we also understand the idea of scarce resources, of saving, of choices, of discipline.  Do you have the WILLPOWER to delay gratification.  The OP had it, his co-worker did not.  This is not luck.

[stlbrah]

I would just shrug it off. Indifference to other peoples' cynicism is a very alpha trait.

[The Hamster]

OP here, after taking the weekend to think about it more and reading the great responses here I decided to apologize this morning to the person this post was in reference to. I don't think he remembered what I was apologizing for, which is slightly entertaining because I spent the whole weekend reflecting on it.

For those that called me out on being a dick, I think it was needed so thanks for pointing it out.  I was frustrated at the time of the conversation. I am only human but getting called out is sometimes needed.

Kudos for apologising trailrated, I must admit I thought your initial response came across as mean and condescending, but I wouldnt' go so far to call you a dick.  My own opinion is that when people say "oh your so lucky" they really mean to congratulate your achievements but can't find a better word to use so it doesn't bother me really.  In most cases, those people are much "luckier" than I am and they just don't realise it.

[Gray Matter]

That said, the clear difference between the OP and the one accusing the OP of being lucky, is this tendency toward saving/mustachianism, which you refer to as "naturally a big saver" and chalk it up to luck, but I believe that to be oversimplified. 

Why?  It is human nature to want more - more stuff, more money, more happiness.  But as humans we also understand the idea of scarce resources, of saving, of choices, of discipline.  Do you have the WILLPOWER to delay gratification.  The OP had it, his co-worker did not.  This is not luck.

(bolding added)

How is this not luck?  I read some research that the ability to delay gratification (or WILLPOWER, as you call it) is a stronger predictor of future success than intelligence, and the ability to predict consequences and delay gratification shows up at a very young age (by age three).  A characteristic that shows up at a young age and endures...that sure meets my definition of luck.  That is not to say a person can't influence it to some degree with a great deal of effort, but the belief that willpower is something one person decides to have/cultivate while the next person willfully decides not to does not align with my understanding of what's going on in the brain at all.

[Cheddar Stacker]

I'm sure some of it comes naturally, but I've significantly strengthened my willpower over the last year. I always understood delayed gratification, but I didn't always utilize it. You have to work to improve yourself, just like anything.

I'm 6'0" tall. There are inherent benefits to this fact. When I was younger I played a lot of basketball. I used to be able to touch the rim, and even dunk a tiny ball like a golf or tennis ball. If I worked at it and built the proper muscles I may have been able to eventually dunk a basketball. I haven't played in years and now I doubt I could touch the rim.

I'm a big strong man (think country/farm strong) and I rarely lift weights. I had a college roommate that was a gym rat. Much smaller than me naturally. He taught me some tricks in the weight room, and within a month I could lift more weights than him - this really pissed him off since he worked so hard and I'd just started. But without regular exercise, those muscles fade quickly.

I have roughly the same genes as all my brothers and sister, yet some of them are big spenders who are deep in debt. I'm somewhere in the middle, and others are extremely frugal (mostly by circumstance, but still very strong). We had the same parents. Some of us work harder at it.

Nature and nuture. It takes both. We are lucky, but we also create our own fortune.

[hybrid]

The next time I get that, and fortunately I don't very often working in a law office (as lawyers significantly outearn the computer guy), I think I will reply with "How so?" This way the person who says it has to explain themselves. And when they do, I get a way to politely introduce them to a different lifestyle.

I tend to avoid confrontation as well, but I am not beyond a difference of opinion.

[Kaspian]

I still disagree with this entire thread.  You guys are talking about the value of luck as if it's a real, tangible, measurable thing.  It's posh.  If luck is real (and by real, I mean exists) then it follows that we have to start thinking about the actual emanating power of four-leaf clovers, horseshoes, and rabbit's feet.  Then you can scan somebody's aura and do a measurement for luck-o-joules.  It's not a real thing.  It doesn't exist at all.  If something turns out for the better, it's just because you believe it's for the better.  It's your subjective perception of an event.  The universe itself doesn't care.  It didn't spoon you out an allocated dollop of luck in an ethereal bowl for you to eat.  No, you look at something and think, "Damn, I think that's good" or "Damn, I think that's bad" and your brain starts making an imaginary envelope it decides to call "luck". 

[RyanAtTanagra]

I still disagree with this entire thread.  You guys are talking about the value of luck as if it's a real, tangible, measurable thing.  It's posh.  If luck is real (and by real, I mean exists) then it follows that we have to start thinking about the actual emanating power of four-leaf clovers, horseshoes, and rabbit's feet.  Then you can scan somebody's aura and do a measurement for luck-o-joules.  It's not a real thing.  It doesn't exist at all.  If something turns out for the better, it's just because you believe it's for the better.  It's your subjective perception of an event.  The universe itself doesn't care.  It didn't spoon you out an allocated dollop of luck in an ethereal bowl for you to eat.  No, you look at something and think, "Damn, I think that's good" or "Damn, I think that's bad" and your brain starts making an imaginary envelope it decides to call "luck".

Semantics.  What would you call being born a white male in a first world country to loving middle class parents that valued education and freedom?  Replace 'luck' with that word.

[senecando]

I still disagree with this entire thread.  You guys are talking about the value of luck as if it's a real, tangible, measurable thing.  It's posh.  If luck is real (and by real, I mean exists) then it follows that we have to start thinking about the actual emanating power of four-leaf clovers, horseshoes, and rabbit's feet.  Then you can scan somebody's aura and do a measurement for luck-o-joules.  It's not a real thing.  It doesn't exist at all.  If something turns out for the better, it's just because you believe it's for the better.  It's your subjective perception of an event.  The universe itself doesn't care.  It didn't spoon you out an allocated dollop of luck in an ethereal bowl for you to eat.  No, you look at something and think, "Damn, I think that's good" or "Damn, I think that's bad" and your brain starts making an imaginary envelope it decides to call "luck".

No one thinks it's measurable. No one thinks the universe "cares". At least you don't have to to have the above conversation.

It's a shorthand for talking about things out of one's control that are hard to predict. One is lucky if they find a hundred dollars on the ground. I don't think many people would say they believe in some persisting luck which some people have and others don't.

The thread is about how some people think finances are out of one's control and hard to predict. We, here, seem to think more things are in our control and are easier to predict.

[Kaspian]

Consider the following:

- A thin girl is on a boat full of overweight passengers.  Everyone says how "lucky" she is.  The boat hits a wave throwing only that girl overboard and she drowns.  Is she suddenly unlucky for being skinny?  Or is the boat unlucky for hitting the wave?  Or are the other people lucky for being overweight?  Or is the shark who ate her lucky to have been nearby?  When they hunt down the shark and kill it, is the shark now unlucky because it ate a girl?  Is the captain lucky because he had a full passenger roaster and made some money that day or unlucky because he lost one of them?

- Some acid accidentally blinds a kid when he's playing with his neighbour.  The other boy is okay.  He's the lucky one and grows up healthy.  People say he's lucky.  He gets drafted, passes the physical with flying colours (the blind guy fails), gets send overseas and promptly shot in the head.  Was he unlucky to be drafted?  Unlucky to be healthy?  Is the other kid now lucky he was blinded? 

See what I mean?  I could go on and on with examples but it's all just crazy talk.

Semantics.  What would you call being born a white male in a first world country to loving middle class parents that valued education and freedom?  Replace 'luck' with that word.

Chance.

[Kaspian]

We, here, seem to think more things are in our control and are easier to predict.

I agree with that!  100%.

[Jane]

I am very lucky, and not afraid to admit it.   I also express my gratefulness very quietly, because I don't want to appear to be gloating.  This can all change in a moment.

+1

Beautifully said. Let's not get too high on ourselves and realize things out of our control can derail our plans at any moment. Having gloated about your "lucky" situation may come crashing back to you in unexpected ways.

Luck = blessings from above + wisdom to appreciate it + a lot of hard work

I'm kind of sitting here too. I know I wouldn't be nearly as close to ER now if it weren't for a lot of things out of my control. Sure, I could have worked hard to get here regardless, but it could have been a much more uphill battle that I'm not so sure I would have won, and I likely would be a lot further away. I feel lucky to even realize ER is a possibility, since I certainly didn't come up with the idea myself and basically stumbled across it.

[RyanAtTanagra]

Semantics.  What would you call being born a white male in a first world country to loving middle class parents that valued education and freedom?  Replace 'luck' with that word.

Chance.

That's works.  'I'm jealous of your chance opportunity to retire early/go on vacation/etc'.  Doesn't roll off the tongue as much but I think it means the same if you take 'you're lucky' in a negative context, vs meaning 'good job'.

[Prairie Stash]

I still disagree with this entire thread.  You guys are talking about the value of luck as if it's a real, tangible, measurable thing.  It's posh.  If luck is real (and by real, I mean exists) then it follows that we have to start thinking about the actual emanating power of four-leaf clovers, horseshoes, and rabbit's feet.  Then you can scan somebody's aura and do a measurement for luck-o-joules.  It's not a real thing.  It doesn't exist at all.  If something turns out for the better, it's just because you believe it's for the better.  It's your subjective perception of an event.  The universe itself doesn't care.  It didn't spoon you out an allocated dollop of luck in an ethereal bowl for you to eat.  No, you look at something and think, "Damn, I think that's good" or "Damn, I think that's bad" and your brain starts making an imaginary envelope it decides to call "luck".

Semantics.  What would you call being born a white male in a first world country to loving middle class parents that valued education and freedom?  Replace 'luck' with that word.

I prefer "Normal", natural progression might also suffice. It's normal that white middle class parents have white middle class children. It's also normal that some of them are male and some are female.

I think my father got "lucky" when I was made, after that it was just biology taking place.

[Cheddar Stacker]

I still disagree with this entire thread.  You guys are talking about the value of luck as if it's a real, tangible, measurable thing.  It's posh.  If luck is real (and by real, I mean exists) then it follows that we have to start thinking about the actual emanating power of four-leaf clovers, horseshoes, and rabbit's feet.  Then you can scan somebody's aura and do a measurement for luck-o-joules.  It's not a real thing.  It doesn't exist at all.  If something turns out for the better, it's just because you believe it's for the better.  It's your subjective perception of an event.  The universe itself doesn't care.  It didn't spoon you out an allocated dollop of luck in an ethereal bowl for you to eat.  No, you look at something and think, "Damn, I think that's good" or "Damn, I think that's bad" and your brain starts making an imaginary envelope it decides to call "luck".

Semantics.  What would you call being born a white male in a first world country to loving middle class parents that valued education and freedom?  Replace 'luck' with that word.

I prefer "Normal", natural progression might also suffice. It's normal that white middle class parents have white middle class children. It's also normal that some of them are male and some are female.

I think my father got "lucky" when I was made, after that it was just biology taking place.

Great point PP. I wonder what % of people are born into reasonable, middle class, "normal" circumstances. First-World countries alone, but also worldwide. I'm more interested in First-World though since that's likely the readers of this forum and those we interact with on a daily basis.

I guess the proper way to look at it is who isn't "lucky/normal". Who in the First world, when born, is at an automatic dis-advantage? Who are the "unlucky?"

Based on the initial description, I don't think the guy talking to the OP was what any of us would consider to be unlucky based on this definition. I don't think many of the people we interact with on a daily basis are what any of us would consider "unlucky."

[arebelspy]

Semantics.  What would you call being born a white male in a first world country to loving middle class parents that valued education and freedom?  Replace 'luck' with that word.

Chance.

Yes.  I define luck as "random chance that affected you positively" and bad luck as "random chance that affected you negatively."

No one is "lucky" or "unlucky" except you might say that more or less positive or negative random things has happened to them.  That doesn't mean they are more or less likely to have those happen in the future.

On the other hand, most people have lots of good or bad things happen to them, but that's not lucky/unlucky, because it's not random.  It's a result of their choices.

In any case, you don't need to rail against the word lucky or unlucky.  Just understand that it's chance, and move on with your day.

[otherbarry]

Luck I feel like increases with hard work, so what's with the arguing?

[clarkfan1979]

"I make my own luck."

me too!

[DollarBill]

I'm getting better at keeping my tongue in check but dang it's hard sometimes. Twice this month, once when my friends took me out for my 40th birthday. One of my friends brought her girlfriend (I think trying to hook me up). They were kind of talking me up then from left field they started saying "I'm cheep". It hit a sore note with me because I prefer "frugal"...lol. I laughed it off but in my head bombs were going off. These are the same people who have had 6 brand new (high end) vehicles in 4 years, 4 horses, new house w/ pool house (still being made, ran out of money, living in the pool house). Second, was talking to my step-brother. Having a good conversation then he mentions about me being retired and says "it must be nice". Then he said he heard that I have like $500K in the bank...not even close. I can't even imagine how much they bleed money...if they have a dollar in their pocket then they spend it.

How come when I hear someone doing better then me, then I give a high five or that's awesome. I remember a guy that people made fun of because they said he was tight with money. I learned a lot from that guy and follow a lot of the same patterns. I would never think or say something like "you're lucky, must be nice". I think it comes down to priorities and dreams. Some people have stopped dreaming!

[Gin1984]

Uh no, that's not about it.  You and many others left out being in the top 25% of intelligence (most likely judging from the eloquence of most here, might even say top 15%) and likely being born with a much higher than average propensity to delay and/or not seek gratification.

Also, so you walk, eat right, and work out twice a week.  Big deal, a lot of people do a lot more and still struggle with weight.   

Obviously there are many things you can do to improve your lot in life, but I think this forum has a tendency to overestimate locus of control and underestimate luck.   Think about it:  Genetics and family background/circumstances comprise at least 50% of outcomes.   

Personally, I know I'm lucky.  Not to brag, but I have never struggled with weight, school came easily, had great parents/family, math came naturally which led to a lucrative career, and am naturally a big saver.    I didn't work for any of these things.       

Luck12, I'd first like to point out that your username was literally created for this moment.  Well done.

I agree with the way that you summarize the role of luck, but would nuance what you said with what others have referenced earlier in the thread (MoneyCat for example), which is essentially that the person saying "you're lucky" has often been blessed with the same amount of luck (Inherited things like intelligence, physical health, family). 

They may have even worked hard to make use of these lucky opportunities.  For example, you can bolster your intelligence by studying hard, your naturally given health by eating right/exercise, and your happy upbringing by building your own good family.

That said, the clear difference between the OP and the one accusing the OP of being lucky, is this tendency toward saving/mustachianism, which you refer to as "naturally a big saver" and chalk it up to luck, but I believe that to be oversimplified. 

Why?  It is human nature to want more - more stuff, more money, more happiness.  But as humans we also understand the idea of scarce resources, of saving, of choices, of discipline. Do you have the WILLPOWER to delay gratification.  The OP had it, his co-worker did not.  This is not luck.

It actually might be, because amount of willpower may be genetic.

[Psychstache]

Uh no, that's not about it.  You and many others left out being in the top 25% of intelligence (most likely judging from the eloquence of most here, might even say top 15%) and likely being born with a much higher than average propensity to delay and/or not seek gratification.

Also, so you walk, eat right, and work out twice a week.  Big deal, a lot of people do a lot more and still struggle with weight.   

Obviously there are many things you can do to improve your lot in life, but I think this forum has a tendency to overestimate locus of control and underestimate luck.   Think about it:  Genetics and family background/circumstances comprise at least 50% of outcomes.   

Personally, I know I'm lucky.  Not to brag, but I have never struggled with weight, school came easily, had great parents/family, math came naturally which led to a lucrative career, and am naturally a big saver.    I didn't work for any of these things.       

Luck12, I'd first like to point out that your username was literally created for this moment.  Well done.

I agree with the way that you summarize the role of luck, but would nuance what you said with what others have referenced earlier in the thread (MoneyCat for example), which is essentially that the person saying "you're lucky" has often been blessed with the same amount of luck (Inherited things like intelligence, physical health, family). 

They may have even worked hard to make use of these lucky opportunities.  For example, you can bolster your intelligence by studying hard, your naturally given health by eating right/exercise, and your happy upbringing by building your own good family.

That said, the clear difference between the OP and the one accusing the OP of being lucky, is this tendency toward saving/mustachianism, which you refer to as "naturally a big saver" and chalk it up to luck, but I believe that to be oversimplified. 

Why?  It is human nature to want more - more stuff, more money, more happiness.  But as humans we also understand the idea of scarce resources, of saving, of choices, of discipline. Do you have the WILLPOWER to delay gratification.  The OP had it, his co-worker did not.  This is not luck.

It actually might be, because amount of willpower may be genetic.

It could also be a skill that is attainable and improvable through effort and practice.

[Gin1984]

Uh no, that's not about it.  You and many others left out being in the top 25% of intelligence (most likely judging from the eloquence of most here, might even say top 15%) and likely being born with a much higher than average propensity to delay and/or not seek gratification.

Also, so you walk, eat right, and work out twice a week.  Big deal, a lot of people do a lot more and still struggle with weight.   

Obviously there are many things you can do to improve your lot in life, but I think this forum has a tendency to overestimate locus of control and underestimate luck.   Think about it:  Genetics and family background/circumstances comprise at least 50% of outcomes.   

Personally, I know I'm lucky.  Not to brag, but I have never struggled with weight, school came easily, had great parents/family, math came naturally which led to a lucrative career, and am naturally a big saver.    I didn't work for any of these things.       

Luck12, I'd first like to point out that your username was literally created for this moment.  Well done.

I agree with the way that you summarize the role of luck, but would nuance what you said with what others have referenced earlier in the thread (MoneyCat for example), which is essentially that the person saying "you're lucky" has often been blessed with the same amount of luck (Inherited things like intelligence, physical health, family). 

They may have even worked hard to make use of these lucky opportunities.  For example, you can bolster your intelligence by studying hard, your naturally given health by eating right/exercise, and your happy upbringing by building your own good family.

That said, the clear difference between the OP and the one accusing the OP of being lucky, is this tendency toward saving/mustachianism, which you refer to as "naturally a big saver" and chalk it up to luck, but I believe that to be oversimplified. 

Why?  It is human nature to want more - more stuff, more money, more happiness.  But as humans we also understand the idea of scarce resources, of saving, of choices, of discipline. Do you have the WILLPOWER to delay gratification.  The OP had it, his co-worker did not.  This is not luck.

It actually might be, because amount of willpower may be genetic.

It could also be a skill that is attainable and improvable through effort and practice.

But still within the bounds of your inheritable limits.  It can be like a bell curve. 

[LennStar]

It actually might be, because amount of willpower may be genetic.

As everything, its part genetics and part what you do/what is your surrounding.
Willpower can be trained like any other muscle. It can be drained like any other strength.
Car sellers who know this (welll.... bad example for MM forum^^) will ask you many many questions. Color of the button for the heating... and a lot other small things. Your Willpower gets drained with any decision you have to take (related or not!) and then, when you just say "standard variant, my head is blurring", then the seller will ask the expensive questions (motor size) because here is the money.

That mechanism is proven in countless psychologial experiments.
Have a look in your library, perhaps you can find a book by Roy Baumeister and John Tierney, could be called "The Power of Willpower" - or somethign completely else, since I am translating from german here ;) Its one of the book I just have from my library and it speaks about exactly this - subtitel is "how to train your willpower".

[rusty]

I see these as opportunities to plant seeds.  If they are sincere, offer your time to educate.  Don't tell them what they should do, tell them what you did.  When you tell them what they should do, you can come off condescending, sharing how you did it is better.  Someone took the time to help you along the way, why not pass it along.  Point them to this website or ERE. 

Truly, we are simply using old techniques.  We try to live like our great grandparents did.  If they didn't have the money for something, they didn't spend it.  Our great grandparents likely only had debt for business or mortgage.  Today, people finance a McD's cheeseburger.

[VirginiaBob]

Not FI yet, but close.  I would refer them to this website, but when I say "Mr. Money Mustache", it sounds kind of silly.  From that persepective, it would almost be better if the name of this website was something more serious sounding, because the name sounds too comical for others to take seriously.  It may just help to say, "Let me tell you about the secret to my success.  Have you heard of the Extreme Early Retirement Movement?  It involves the rejection of the consumerism lifestyle that has been brainwashed into our society.  If you are interested in learning more, let me know, and I'll send you some information that may be useful."

[Ferrisbueller]

Sounded a bit smug to me.
I think most people are basically decent but most don't take the time to REALLY understand where they're going wrong with their lives or even why they're not losing weight quick enough or where their money goes.  The bunch of people here on mmm are a reflective lot, good listeners, good planners, interested in other people's approaches to problems and i would say and quite analytical in their approach to life in general.  This is not representative of society as a whole at all.  My approach generally is to see if people are really interested in the answer (most aren't) so when someone says "your lucky" to me I tend to say something like "I feel very fortunate" if they ask a follow up like "how come you've no car payments"or whatever then I expand the answer and so on depending on their level of interest.  When I was younger I used to feel a desparate urge to make people see where they're going wrong, whether they liked it or not, but far from helping it creates hostility and defensiveness (naturally enough!)