Author Topic: "The most expensive jeans will not change my life" - or would they?  (Read 16825 times)

lifejoy

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This TED talk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21j_OCNLuYg) really underscores some issues that I've been contemplating lately. Buying fashion items does not actually improve our lives... or does it? Does increased social standing improve our lives? When we look nicer, people treat us nicer.

How to find balance? I realize that "not caring" is an easy answer, but there are numerous studies out there about how perceived status and beauty can make people treat you nicer. I like being treated better because of how I look, I'll admit it. It also helps my self-confidence to look good and feel good. But I'd also like to forgo that in order to save money and stop keeping up with the Joneses.

So how do you find balance?

Kris

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Re: "The most expensive jeans will not change my life" - or would they?
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2015, 01:35:17 PM »
This TED talk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21j_OCNLuYg) really underscores some issues that I've been contemplating lately. Buying fashion items does not actually improve our lives... or does it? Does increased social standing improve our lives? When we look nicer, people treat us nicer.

How to find balance? I realize that "not caring" is an easy answer, but there are numerous studies out there about how perceived status and beauty can make people treat you nicer. I like being treated better because of how I look, I'll admit it. It also helps my self-confidence to look good and feel good. But I'd also like to forgo that in order to save money and stop keeping up with the Joneses.

So how do you find balance?

I've thought about this a fair amount.  Here's where I've come down on the subject. 

Yes, perceived status and beauty can make people treat you better.  But the status from achieving/attaining certain kinds of beauty comes with a considerable downside.  Pursuing designer clothing, expensive makeup regimes and hair/body products, spa treatments, etc. can make you look and feel more "classy."  But the people who will be most impressed by those things are also people who pursue the same things.  Being treated well and appreciated by them can and will draw you into a hedonic cycle, because you will place yourself in an entourage that expects to be judged for their large houses, expensive furniture and hobbies, and yes, top-notch clothing and grooming.  Eventually, I believe, you end up feeling even worse about yourself, because you've entered a race that has no finish line.  This is not a good way to achieve happiness or feelings of self-worth.

I feel that being able to attain a basic level of beauty/attractiveness that will lead the general public to treat you with respect is not the same thing.  One can dress attractively by knowing the kinds of styles, colors, etc. that look good on you; by keeping up with your hygiene; etc. And, I think, the most important aspect is maintaining physical fitness and a healthy weight.  I have gone through stages of my life where I spent quite a bit (for me) of money on haircuts and colors, nice clothing, etc.  But I noticed that I only felt good about myself up to a point.  However, when I had been doing a good job of eating healthily, getting exercise regularly, etc., my skin looked better, my clothes fit better, and in general I felt better about myself.  Eventually, I realized that I had a much stronger impulse to go out and spend money on nice clothing when I was feeling less physically attractive.  In other words, often I was wanting to buy that clothing to mask those extra few pounds, or the fact that I felt flabby instead of toned. 

Looking put together and having fashionable clothing is not the same thing.  Better to spend time and effort on our bodies and health, rather than on expensive clothing to make ourselves feel better.

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Re: "The most expensive jeans will not change my life" - or would they?
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2015, 01:42:10 PM »
This TED talk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21j_OCNLuYg) really underscores some issues that I've been contemplating lately. Buying fashion items does not actually improve our lives... or does it? Does increased social standing improve our lives? When we look nicer, people treat us nicer.

How to find balance? I realize that "not caring" is an easy answer, but there are numerous studies out there about how perceived status and beauty can make people treat you nicer. I like being treated better because of how I look, I'll admit it. It also helps my self-confidence to look good and feel good. But I'd also like to forgo that in order to save money and stop keeping up with the Joneses.

So how do you find balance?


What other people think should not be a priority.  Social standing -- which basically translates to what other people think -- is not something to become dependent on, or a slave to.

That may sound simplistic.  But there it is.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2015, 06:51:48 AM by Retired To Win »

sheepstache

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Re: "The most expensive jeans will not change my life" - or would they?
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2015, 02:12:46 PM »
Pareto principle? The first 20% of the effort results in 80% of the results. Beyond that, diminishing returns.

The problem probably comes from looking at people who are close to your level but slightly above, the tug of, "ooh, that hair looks better than mine," "if I just had a nice accessory like that," etc. Chasing tiny gains. The only way you'll avoid that is by being the best-put-together in the room and that requires way too intensive an effort.

That's why, without watching the video, I'd argue fashionable jeans are great. Even with a high initial cost, they make a big difference to your look, easy to take care of, go with a lot of looks. You're well on your way to 80% with not a lot of effort.

Argyle

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Re: "The most expensive jeans will not change my life" - or would they?
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2015, 02:16:26 PM »
I don't know, people treat me pretty nicely already.  I'm hard put to think of how more expensive clothing would make any difference.  My friends wouldn't invite me over more.  My job is stable and I've been at the same teaching job for more than 20 years.  In fact if I showed up in fancy clothing, to the degree where it's noticeable they'd just be baffled.  I guess expensive designer clothes are for situations in which you want to make a first impression on the kind of people who care about expensive designers clothes.  Maybe if you're pitching a story in Hollywood, or going for an interview as a stockbroker.  For the rest of us — it's a snow job in the part of the designers.

lifejoy

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Great thoughts so far.

I think I'm "growing up" and learning to not place such a premium on my appearance, but I also find it difficult to give up that game of getting better accessories, better hair, nice makeup, etc. It's hard for me to consciously step off this hedonistic path, even though I know it's logically what I need to find true self-confidence.

Great point about physical health being attractive.

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Re: "The most expensive jeans will not change my life" - or would they?
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2015, 02:45:15 PM »
This TED talk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21j_OCNLuYg) really underscores some issues that I've been contemplating lately. Buying fashion items does not actually improve our lives... or does it? Does increased social standing improve our lives? When we look nicer, people treat us nicer.

How to find balance? I realize that "not caring" is an easy answer, but there are numerous studies out there about how perceived status and beauty can make people treat you nicer. I like being treated better because of how I look, I'll admit it. It also helps my self-confidence to look good and feel good. But I'd also like to forgo that in order to save money and stop keeping up with the Joneses.

So how do you find balance?

I've thought about this lately too, and read up on it a bit.  Here's what resonates with me: when we don't know someone well, we have to rely on heuristics.  As social animals, we (mostly) want to know if a person is in our "clan" to know if they are a friend or a (potentially dangerous) stranger.  So we give off signals, indicating what "clan" we belong to.

If you're looking fashionable, you're telling people that you're part of the clan that watches TV to know about fashion.  Strangers see you and think - oh, she's like me.  Some other examples:

If you're working in a big business, you need a suit - or people will look at you askance.  If you're on wall street, you need a high end suit and expensive watch to show that you're one of the big players.

If you wear that above suit to a software startup, people will wonder openly about you.

If you're carrying a backpack, you're part of the hiker culture.  (Fortunately this culture overlaps with Mustachianism!)

If you're wearing lycra while riding a bike, the "in" crowd of roadies will treat you as a fellow member.  (See also the "no Freds" movement.)

If you're Mustachian and want to be accepted* out there, it would behoove you to learn about style (not fashion)** that fits you and also fits into the groups you want to associate with.


* I think it is reasonable to want to be accepted through this use of signaling, especially when looking for new friends, dating, etc...  If you don't need quick acceptance from a group, for whatever reason, that's OK too.  It's OK to not blend in, if that's not you.

** Is there a good resource for this?


I think the key is to use this signaling knowledge to your advantage.  This helps find your balance.

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Re: "The most expensive jeans will not change my life" - or would they?
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2015, 02:46:34 PM »
There was a rather lengthy discussion awhile back (sorry i don't have a link) about the real effect of confidence on others opinion of you, irrespective of what you wear. As long as you meet the social norm of what you are expected to be wearing (i.e. not wearing t-shirt and sweatpants to a business casual atmosphere) people perceive your confidence level much more than the actual clothes you are wearing...unless of course you are trying to schmooze with some snobs, but why would you want to be friends with them anyway ;-)

Kris

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Re: "The most expensive jeans will not change my life" - or would they?
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2015, 04:26:47 PM »
There was a rather lengthy discussion awhile back (sorry i don't have a link) about the real effect of confidence on others opinion of you, irrespective of what you wear. As long as you meet the social norm of what you are expected to be wearing (i.e. not wearing t-shirt and sweatpants to a business casual atmosphere) people perceive your confidence level much more than the actual clothes you are wearing...unless of course you are trying to schmooze with some snobs, but why would you want to be friends with them anyway ;-)

I agree with this.  And that kind of links up to what I said earlier about physical fitness giving you a bigger confidence boost than the actual trappings that you choose to drape yourself with.

To the OP: I notice you're in your twenties, and I'm in my late forties, now.  I look and feel much younger than my age, and I don't worry nearly as much about the "trappings" now as I used to.  I often think about this: if I could install a microchip into the brain of my younger self, of life hacks to help me focus on what I ultimately care about, and not waste time on the other crap.  One of those pieces of info that I'd put in the microchip is this:

You can get away with almost anything if you simply own it with confidence.  I can't tell you how many things I can look back to that I did in my teens and twenties because I either: a) wanted to do something but didn't because I was too afraid of what others would think; b) did things I didn't want to because I thought if I didn't, others would think poorly of me; or c) sat around for hours agonizing about whether to do something that ultimately I should just have not worried about it and done whatever the hell I wanted, because no one was paying nearly as much attention as I thought they were.

If I had had the wisdom I have now and just done whatever I wanted with confidence, I would have been a freaking superstar, writing my own ticket to whatever I wanted to do and not wasting my energies on shallow shit.  I wasted a hell of a lot of energy on other people's opinions. 

kpd905

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Re: "The most expensive jeans will not change my life" - or would they?
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2015, 04:32:25 PM »
The most expensive jeans would definitely change your life, just not for the better.

According to this article, there is a pair of jeans that costs $1.3 million: http://www.therichest.com/luxury/most-expensive/top-10-most-expensive-jeans-in-the-world/

purplish

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Re: "The most expensive jeans will not change my life" - or would they?
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2015, 04:56:11 PM »
Personally I've always felt that it's not the brands you wear or amount of money you spend, it's the style you wear and how you wear it.  Honestly I wear $10 jeans.  For work, I try to dress in a way that says "I'm somewhat in charge, yet approachable" lol.  None of it is expensive clothing whatsoever, but it's the style.  When someone sees someone who is dressed up, they view that person as more confident.  Could it be a very inexpensive outfit?  You bet!  Same with makeup/hair.  I always wear makeup and have my hair looking nice, for cheap. 

Ynari

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Re: "The most expensive jeans will not change my life" - or would they?
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2015, 04:58:04 PM »
I think being clean and well-kept is the most important factor.  As sheepstache mentioned, the first 20% go 80% of the way - and I think that having clean, neat, well fitting clothing that does not show undue wear and tear is the biggest thing to worry about.

Beyond that, it's about who you want to impress, and why, and then whether or not that's worth it to you.  Suits for business, sure. But I personally have lots of fun tights because in my athletic classes everyone likes fun tights. I love seeing other people in fun tights.  It's a shared sub-hobby to the athletic hobby. And a few $20s thrown at some tights is a fair price to me.

The_path_less_taken

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Re: "The most expensive jeans will not change my life" - or would they?
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2015, 05:35:56 PM »
Most "fashion" has reminded me of that old comic of the gnu herds at the water hole and one gnu saying to the other one, "Ohhhhh, he's cute?"

And the other gnu says, "Who? Which one? Um, a little help?"

Like someone else said: trying to keep up is running a race that has no finish line.

Personally, I've never really cared what other people were wearing. Some stuff I liked. Some stuff I was puzzled by. And some stuff made me bite my lip to keep from laughing out loud: as in, 50 year old women with caesarean scars and a beer gut in belly bearing cutoff tops...really? You thought that looked good before you left the house?

Or anything on those chain Walmartian emails.

Now for WORK, that's different: you need the stache, you do have to somewhat fit in with that herd. It breaks my heart to buy work clothes. Even when the money's good.

On your own time...it's all good. I had to attend a trial as a witness and my friend John said: "You're going to wear THAT?"

His girlfriend kind of nodded and frowned at me. She suggested I change as well.

"These are my best clothes?" (black pants, black boots, black leather vest, silver silk blouse)

He pointed at his girlfriend and said, "But they expect you to look like that" (she was wearing varying shades of pastel gray, very conservative: think church receptionist). "You look like a biker chick who just knocked over a liquor store."

"And your point?" I grinned back at him. His girlfriend slapped him and huffed off.

I kinda quit caring early on what anyone's opinion was. It's probably saved me thousands of dollars over the years.

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Re: "The most expensive jeans will not change my life" - or would they?
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2015, 05:40:46 PM »
I, too, have thought about how my appearance and dress influences social standing, and I've also come to a similar conclusion to sheepstache, that a little bit of effort will get you most of the way there (he says 20% effort for 80% results - seems about the right ballpark).
A few other musings I've come to believe in along the way;

Being the best dressed isn't as important as not being the worst dressed.  As long as I can look as good as half the people I know people won't "deduct" points from me for being a schlub.  In most circumstances there's no need to chase fashion to reach this threshold; clean clothes, decent grooming and wardrobe staples will do fine. In my field you can get away with wearing a t-shirt and jeans most days, but just wearing a basic button-down shirt and chinos puts me above the worst and I notice that people take me more seriously.

dress for the job you want (or the 'level' you want people to see you at):  when I'm meeting with other administrators and professors I choose clothes that are more similar to what they are wearing.  I might put on a jacket when I meet with the department  (something I wouldn't normally wear when working with graduate students in the lab).

For me, clothes don't need to be what's 'in-style' - if I can't picture wearing it in 2 years I don't buy it.  I also never buy anything until it goes on sale... if they run out of that size or it never goes on sale... well, there's so much clothing to choose from I'll never, ever run out of options.  I tend to buy quality clothes on clearance towards the end of the season, and even with strict buying rules its never hard to find things that will work for me.  Having worked in retail I know they intentionally have sizes and styles 'run-out' to create this sense that "you may never get another chance to buy this particular garment".  Meh - there's are always others coming along that will work just as well if not better.

bacchi

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Re: "The most expensive jeans will not change my life" - or would they?
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2015, 05:49:44 PM »
People actually care what brand of jeans someone is wearing? That's just...odd. It would require me to spend time learning the cuts and stitching of various jeans so that I can rate them. Too much effort.

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Re: "The most expensive jeans will not change my life" - or would they?
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2015, 05:55:15 PM »
Another way to play this is to spend more on those items seen the most frequently:  handbags and sunglasses are seen much more frequently by the brand sheep than your outfit.  However, use that extra money to get higher quality classic styling, not just higher priced and trendy crap.

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"The most expensive jeans will not change my life" - or would they?
« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2015, 09:32:39 PM »
This TED talk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21j_OCNLuYg) really underscores some issues that I've been contemplating lately. Buying fashion items does not actually improve our lives... or does it? Does increased social standing improve our lives? When we look nicer, people treat us nicer.

How to find balance? I realize that "not caring" is an easy answer, but there are numerous studies out there about how perceived status and beauty can make people treat you nicer. I like being treated better because of how I look, I'll admit it. It also helps my self-confidence to look good and feel good. But I'd also like to forgo that in order to save money and stop keeping up with the Joneses.

So how do you find balance?

I've thought about this lately too, and read up on it a bit.  Here's what resonates with me: when we don't know someone well, we have to rely on heuristics.  As social animals, we (mostly) want to know if a person is in our "clan" to know if they are a friend or a (potentially dangerous) stranger.  So we give off signals, indicating what "clan" we belong to.

If you're looking fashionable, you're telling people that you're part of the clan that watches TV to know about fashion.  Strangers see you and think - oh, she's like me.  Some other examples:

If you're working in a big business, you need a suit - or people will look at you askance.  If you're on wall street, you need a high end suit and expensive watch to show that you're one of the big players.

If you wear that above suit to a software startup, people will wonder openly about you.

If you're carrying a backpack, you're part of the hiker culture.  (Fortunately this culture overlaps with Mustachianism!)

If you're wearing lycra while riding a bike, the "in" crowd of roadies will treat you as a fellow member.  (See also the "no Freds" movement.)

If you're Mustachian and want to be accepted* out there, it would behoove you to learn about style (not fashion)** that fits you and also fits into the groups you want to associate with.


* I think it is reasonable to want to be accepted through this use of signaling, especially when looking for new friends, dating, etc...  If you don't need quick acceptance from a group, for whatever reason, that's OK too.  It's OK to not blend in, if that's not you.

** Is there a good resource for this?


I think the key is to use this signaling knowledge to your advantage.  This helps find your balance.

I like this perspective. For me it's less about getting treated nicely than it is about either feeling comfortable, fitting in, or showing the appropriate amount of respect. On 'feeling comfortable' days when I typically come into contact with very few people, Old Navy Cargos and a t shirt are just fine...or perhaps the shorts and Nike Fit shirt I wore for my morning workout.

retireatbirth

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Re: "The most expensive jeans will not change my life" - or would they?
« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2015, 09:57:52 PM »
I'm certainly not going to buy my clothes at Target, but I can buy them at a place like Uniqlo that is fairly budget and stylish. Plus, I won't buy them very often (only when I really need to). As a previous poster said, 20% of the effort gives you 80% of the results. Clothes can be both stylish and not an expensive budget item.

I even bought a custom made suit a few months back before I got involved with this mustachian lifestyle and it wasn't much more expensive than a regular suit, looks great, and gets worn all the time. Expensive habits are what I try to stay away from. I'm not too concerned with one time well thought-out expensive purchases.

lifejoy

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Really great thoughts here. I'm thinking that peer group and profession can have a big effect on how we present ourselves. My closest friends, while not super spendy, are incredibly fashionable to the point of being stopped on the street for compliments or by fashion bloggers!

My library job is extremely casual, and my jewellery store job is very fancy pants. I often think I should switch to just libraries to avoid trying to keep up, fashion-wise.

I like this 20% / 80% viewpoint! Sounds legit to me.

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Re: "The most expensive jeans will not change my life" - or would they?
« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2015, 11:39:05 PM »
I spent a lot of money on clothes/makeup/skincare in my 20s. I am 36 now and I now have a more classic look rather than following the trends. I know what suits me and my body a lot better now. I would still say I am fashionable but not a slave to it IYKWIM.  I buy a lot of clothes second hand, luckily I live in a wealthy town and lots of people cast off clothing to the charity shops that is in as new condition.

In terms of makeup and skin care products, there really is little difference between drug store vs high end, despite what the manufacturers try to tell you. So I now spend 1/6 what I used to.


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Re: "The most expensive jeans will not change my life" - or would they?
« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2015, 02:07:01 AM »
You can be mustachian and still have style/be fashionable.

I watched a YouTube video of frugal people who wore tattered clothes and "didn't care what they looked like." My thoughts were that these people probably lose more money in job opportunities (promotion, even hiring!, etc) than they save on wearing the same ratty tank top for 5 years.

Then there are fashionable minimalists who shop smartly at secondhand stores, often buying classic and quality pieces that stay in good condition and never look frumpy or unstylish (Bea Johnson of zero waste home comes to mind).

I think there's a balance. I personally don't wear any clothes with holes, frays, etc in them and still find people complimenting my style -- similarly, I don't spend much money on it! You can invest in a small amount of high quality basics and build the wardrobe around that... nobody pays attention to if you're following the trend and truly are wearing designer.

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Re: "The most expensive jeans will not change my life" - or would they?
« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2015, 02:48:37 AM »
There was a rather lengthy discussion awhile back (sorry i don't have a link) about the real effect of confidence on others opinion of you, irrespective of what you wear. As long as you meet the social norm of what you are expected to be wearing (i.e. not wearing t-shirt and sweatpants to a business casual atmosphere) people perceive your confidence level much more than the actual clothes you are wearing...unless of course you are trying to schmooze with some snobs, but why would you want to be friends with them anyway ;-)

This more or less matches my experience: intellectually, it makes some sense that appearance could matter, and I could see that appearance might serve as a sort of substitute for confidence in many circumstances, but I don't personally attend to my appearance at all, other than maintaining very very basic professional standards - and by that I mean far less attention to those standards than most women would, and it's just never, ever been an issue.  I am short, really emphatically not physically attractive, don't wear make-up or do anything else to try to conceal that basic fact, wouldn't have a clue what's fashionable, and am so bored by shopping that something else is /always/ higher on the priority list, until the point that my clothing begins to wear out, possibly beyond the degree that it's really okay in a professional space - but I've always been a high performer, I can command a room, and I am known for often being able to solve other people's random professional problems quickly in the course of drive-by interactions: I assume that I'm useful enough that, if people are having bad reactions to how I look, they must suppress them enough that I don't sense it.  But I also suspect that my own total lack of care about this kind of stuff is sort of infectious - other people, in professional spaces at least, take their cues from me, and if I'm not bothered, neither are they.

That said: I don't do anything disrespectful: if I'm in a context that requires a suit, I'll wear one, etc. But, really, it would be difficult for me to do less to attend to how I look.

At the same time, I do believe this /can/ matter, so I don't discount as a real constraint on what other people can do.  I produced some publicly available video content recently for one of my courses, and I wondered briefly whether my appearance would draw drive-by criticisms online, because that kind of random negativity happens so commonly and it's so easy for people to do anonymously.  It hasn't happened yet, but the fact that I thought about it means that even I am not completely oblivious to the constraints.  It wouldn't take much for that awareness to dent someone's own confidence, which could then create a cycle where they are less able to behave in ways that deflect other people's attention from appearance.  And of course there are types of roles where the pressure will be more intense, objectively, as well as structural situations where someone is too disempowered for their own self-confidence to matter as much...  In many circumstances, it may be worth attending to the social standard, at least to some degree, because you need to pick your battles, and this may not be the best one to take on for a particular person...

These comments are all with reference to /professional/ spaces.  If we're just talking private social circles: I would change my social group rather than have to worry about this kind of thing in any private space.  That should be a realm of freedom from this sort of constraint.

MrsPete

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Re: "The most expensive jeans will not change my life" - or would they?
« Reply #22 on: April 06, 2015, 06:32:17 AM »
But I noticed that I only felt good about myself up to a point.  However, when I had been doing a good job of eating healthily, getting exercise regularly, etc., my skin looked better, my clothes fit better, and in general I felt better about myself.  Eventually, I realized that I had a much stronger impulse to go out and spend money on nice clothing when I was feeling less physically attractive.  In other words, often I was wanting to buy that clothing to mask those extra few pounds, or the fact that I felt flabby instead of toned. 
Pareto principle? The first 20% of the effort results in 80% of the results. Beyond that, diminishing returns.
I think these two sum it up well. 

A nice new outfit may put a bit of spring in your step, making you feel good about yourself, and that will project outward to the world ... but that outfit will soon become "old", and then you'll need another new springboard to confidence ... if you're looking to outward things to provide that boost.  Actually feeling good about yourself from the inside is an all-the-time motivator.

At the same time, it's a balance: you DO need to look presentable to the world.  I have a ratty old sweatshirt that I bought when I was pregnant with my 21-year old daughter, and I love to wear that thing around the house, but I don't wear it out, even just to the grocery store.  It's not the image I want to put forward to the world.  I wouldn't like to run into my students or their parents while wearing that old, stained thing. 

So looking "put together" matters -- both in the work place and just in the community -- but that doesn't require designer duds with hefty price tags.  At work, I lean towards Lands End dresses bought on clearance at the end of the season.  Fancy?  No, but they are neat, age-appropriate, and job-appropriate.  I could put in much more effort ... without gaining any more results. 


boy_bye

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Re: "The most expensive jeans will not change my life" - or would they?
« Reply #23 on: April 06, 2015, 07:16:35 AM »
it's not that the most expensive jeans will change your life, but jeans you really like that fit you well can. the trick is to get the good jeans more cheaply. there is one particular brand of jeans i love and that fit my not-in-the-middle-of-the-bell-curve shape well, and i started out buying them retail, but over time started finding them on ebay instead for less than half the price.

step one is to figure out what you love and will wear. step two is to figure out where to get them cheap :)

mathlete

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Re: "The most expensive jeans will not change my life" - or would they?
« Reply #24 on: April 06, 2015, 08:42:30 AM »
I agree that being clean/wearing clean clothes is like, the most important part of appearances. Eating healthy and being fit helps too of course.

There are some times in which I felt that it made sense to spend money on clothes though. When I first started making serious money, I spent hundreds of dollars on a work wardrobe. I could have bought ill fitting slacks and shirts in bulk or something, but I've found that I feel a lot better when (I think) I look good, and non slim fit dress shirts aren't a good look for me.

The good news is that those clothes have (for the most part) lasted me 4 years now and I only spend about $100 a year refreshing my work clothes, adding a new items, getting rid of an old ones.

As an aside, I also think I look good in t-shirts and basketball shorts but I don't think I could get my office to go for that.

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Re: "The most expensive jeans will not change my life" - or would they?
« Reply #25 on: April 06, 2015, 08:58:56 AM »
There are some times in which I felt that it made sense to spend money on clothes though. When I first started making serious money, I spent hundreds of dollars on a work wardrobe. I could have bought ill fitting slacks and shirts in bulk or something, but I've found that I feel a lot better when (I think) I look good, and non slim fit dress shirts aren't a good look for me.

This.  As someone who's tall, broad shouldered, and skinny, any shirts that aren't 'slim fit' are either a circus tent or I can't move freely or my sleeves are WAY too short.  I'm seriously considering getting measured by a tailor and ordering bespoke shirts.

damize

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Re: "The most expensive jeans will not change my life" - or would they?
« Reply #26 on: April 06, 2015, 09:11:08 AM »
This was my first thought after reading this discussion.

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Re: "The most expensive jeans will not change my life" - or would they?
« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2015, 09:22:18 AM »
There's a difference between style and fashion.

Fashion is ever-shifting and expensive.

It's not too expensive to build a high-quality, relatively timeless wardrobe - and this is all you need to find yourself being treated more nicely - and feeling more confident as a result (and these feed each other too). Thrift stores can help, there are also good sales and coupon stacking at online merchants, and getting clothes made to fit say, in Southeast Asia.

mtnrider

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Re: "The most expensive jeans will not change my life" - or would they?
« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2015, 07:59:34 PM »
There's a difference between style and fashion.

Do you know of any good resources for developing a sense of style?


lifejoy

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There's a difference between style and fashion.

Do you know of any good resources for developing a sense of style?

Eep I wish I knew!

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MrFancypants

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Re: "The most expensive jeans will not change my life" - or would they?
« Reply #31 on: April 07, 2015, 07:31:51 AM »
You don't have to spend a lot of money to look good, you just have to put some time and thought into it.  IMO how your clothes fit means more than who made them, or even the materials they were made out of.

You could have a $5000 suit made from strands of Jesus' beard and if it doesn't fit right it isn't going to look good.

But then you get a $300 suit on sale from a Banana Republic outlet that fits perfectly and you'll look fantastic.

There are also some classic looks that never really go out of style.  Levis jeans and a properly fitting V-neck t-shirt is a style that will last a guy for years and not cost all that much.

I can't really speak for ladies clothing, but I do know that my wife looks sharp without spending too much.  But she usually spends a couple of hours looking through Marshalls or TJ Maxx to find good deals.

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Re: "The most expensive jeans will not change my life" - or would they?
« Reply #32 on: April 07, 2015, 07:41:12 AM »
Spending money on clothes that fit you well, are not worn out and are clean is a reasonable thing to do unless you live in the woods by yourself. Quality clothes that are taken care of should last a long time. If you don't chase trends they can stay in style forever. And if you can be bothered to hunt around you can get some nice clothing deals.

The thing is you have to wear clothes so if you want to look good spend your time and money on taking care of yourself. If you are fit, eat well and sleep properly you'll look so much better in the same clothes than a version of you that does not.

-- Vik

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Re: "The most expensive jeans will not change my life" - or would they?
« Reply #33 on: April 07, 2015, 09:04:15 AM »
This.  As someone who's tall, broad shouldered, and skinny, any shirts that aren't 'slim fit' are either a circus tent or I can't move freely or my sleeves are WAY too short.  I'm seriously considering getting measured by a tailor and ordering bespoke shirts.

You may want to try Brooks Brothers.  They have a *really* big size range in their "off the rack" section.  Likewise, their sales folks are really great about taking time to measure you.  If nothing works, they also offer bespoke shirts.  It's one stop shopping.  Then, the same sales person will send you invite-only discounts and give you a heads-up when the really great sales are on.  They save your measurements and style preferences and can pull a few select pieces for you in advance if you call in.

OP - I agree with the 20/80 principle presented earlier.  I also agree that - though we are an enlightened lot - the rest of the world is still stupid and judgmental.  I try to find my middle path between the two opposing pressures.  For me, being neat, clean, groomed, and working with a "10 Item" "Capsule" or "French" wardrobe has been my savior.  (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3CLRL32Mcw)  Higher quality articles last a lot longer.

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Re: "The most expensive jeans will not change my life" - or would they?
« Reply #34 on: April 07, 2015, 09:21:50 AM »
It is interesting, although as being physically fit is probably the most desirable thing you can do my first goal is to aim for that, then we can see about style. No sense buying expensive stylish clothes now if they won't fit in a few months time.

Never been one for spending loads and style and tend to push the more casual end of the spectrum (for our practical exams I was by far the most casually dressed, I was still 'smart' but comfortable and practical rather than all this tie rubbish other people had going on!).

So stylish clothes very much sits in the, 'at some point but not now' box.

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Re: "The most expensive jeans will not change my life" - or would they?
« Reply #35 on: April 07, 2015, 10:31:46 AM »
Well, I've never actually owned expensive clothing, but I can make a guess how it would affect my life: it would stress me out like crazy. I'd be paranoid about spilling something on it, damaging it, getting it caught in my bike chain, or having my cat claw a hole in it. That's exactly how I feel when I dress up a couple times a year for formal events, and that stuff isn't even THAT expensive.

So it would change my life, but not for the better. Maybe I'm just immature, but if I see a nice grassy hill, sometimes I like to just roll down it, you know? Can't do that in fancy-pants clothes.

ltt

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Re: "The most expensive jeans will not change my life" - or would they?
« Reply #36 on: April 07, 2015, 12:21:39 PM »
Interesting topic.  I, personally, think they may change your life ONLY if they are also your most comfortable jeans because your confidence level would go way up.  Just my 2 cents.

Seriously, I don't think anyone really pays attention to what jeans people wear.  We have two daughters---one daughter doesn't really care for the latest clothing trends--she tends to be focused on comfort; she is also a very compassionate person.  The other daughter is extremely concerned about her appearance and typically gravitates towards more fashionable clothing.  She cares about how she is perceived and what she looks like.  She would never consider wearing clothing from a thrift shop. 

The "competitiveness" of needing to buy expensive clothing items concerns me.

 

lifejoy

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Well, I've never actually owned expensive clothing, but I can make a guess how it would affect my life: it would stress me out like crazy. I'd be paranoid about spilling something on it, damaging it, getting it caught in my bike chain, or having my cat claw a hole in it. That's exactly how I feel when I dress up a couple times a year for formal events, and that stuff isn't even THAT expensive.

So it would change my life, but not for the better. Maybe I'm just immature, but if I see a nice grassy hill, sometimes I like to just roll down it, you know? Can't do that in fancy-pants clothes.

Oooo how I have felt this with my few pricier items!!!

Kris

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Well, I've never actually owned expensive clothing, but I can make a guess how it would affect my life: it would stress me out like crazy. I'd be paranoid about spilling something on it, damaging it, getting it caught in my bike chain, or having my cat claw a hole in it. That's exactly how I feel when I dress up a couple times a year for formal events, and that stuff isn't even THAT expensive.

So it would change my life, but not for the better. Maybe I'm just immature, but if I see a nice grassy hill, sometimes I like to just roll down it, you know? Can't do that in fancy-pants clothes.

Oooo how I have felt this with my few pricier items!!!


This is how I feel about having a new, fancy car.  I had one, once, because my ex-husband wanted a new-new car.

I HATED it.  I hated worrying about the inevitable first scratch.  I hated worrying in spite of myself about getting in an accident not for my safety so much as because I was afraid to damage the car. 

mtnrider

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Re: "The most expensive jeans will not change my life" - or would they?
« Reply #39 on: April 07, 2015, 08:47:00 PM »
There's a difference between style and fashion.

Do you know of any good resources for developing a sense of style?

Assuming you're a guy... here's a few...

http://effortlessgent.com/
http://dappered.com/
http://www.artofmanliness.com/
http://www.realmenrealstyle.com/
http://stylegirlfriend.com/

Yeah guy.  But, oh no!  Is "stylish" really a synonym for "dressy" and "suits"?   (I dress more like Indiana Jones or Mark Zuckerburg :) ).  Form follows function.

I was hoping for something like - measure your legs, measure your torso, be sure there's a golden ratio, be sure to only match this set of colors with that set of colors, and don't wear stripes with plaid.  (Maybe also: what colors look good with what skin tones, etc...)

I should break this out into another thread though.

Retired To Win

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Re: "The most expensive jeans will not change my life" - or would they?
« Reply #40 on: April 08, 2015, 06:59:22 AM »
You can be mustachian and still have style/be fashionable...Then there are fashionable minimalists who shop smartly at secondhand stores, often buying classic and quality pieces that stay in good condition and never look frumpy or unstylish...


Setting the "minimalist" reference aside, the comment above is spot on.  Second hand stores (aka thrift stores) are an absolute gold mine where clothing is concerned.  A lot of the clothing comes from estates that are donated "in whole" to the thrift store. And there are clothing treasures to be found there.

Just 2 examples from my own experience are a tie I got for 50 cents and a blazer I got for $5 at a thrift store.  At work, that tie and that blazer were hands down the 2 pieces of clothing that got the most and most consistent compliments of any garments I owned.

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Re: "The most expensive jeans will not change my life" - or would they?
« Reply #41 on: April 08, 2015, 07:38:27 AM »
Following with interest. My views reflect the 80/20 and "be fit first" views. Personally, I think it reflects far better on my appearance if I focus the time and energy that would go to fashion and good food and cooking that good food.

OP- you're young, female, and living in a city like I am. Unfortunately, we're in a very appearance-focused demographic by default. You work two jobs, so presumably scouring thrift stores takes a bit more time than you generally have. As such, I highly recommend a capsule wardrobe. Added bonus: if you have a relative who is a "gifts=love" love language sort, be sure they have your measurements =D My mother has gotten me some truly awful clothing, but has also gotten me a couple of the foundation pieces I've worn and have held up for a decade now.

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Re: "The most expensive jeans will not change my life" - or would they?
« Reply #42 on: April 08, 2015, 08:35:28 AM »
I have been finding that polyvore type pins on pinterest have really helped me combine things I already had that work together in ways I hadn't expected. 

Also found that dressing for MY shape and not a designer really made big changes in how I felt....for instance...I'm long waisted with a shapely rear....the best jeans for me...fricken Gloria Vanderbilt.  Makes me look like a million bucks.  So once I got over the idea that levi's weren't for me, I have several pairs of the same jeans in different hues that work for ME.  And that changes my level of confidence about my appearance.

pbkmaine

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DH worked for a European company for many years, and I learned a lot from Europeans. Have a few nice separates in one neutral color family that look good on you and look good together. These can be acquired at thrift shops or on Ebay very inexpensively. Add a few colorful accessories. (Scarves are super cheap at thrift shops.) Buy good quality comfortable shoes at an outlet mall. Get a colorful tote that plays off your neutrals from an outlet mall or from Ebay.

lifejoy

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Following with interest. My views reflect the 80/20 and "be fit first" views. Personally, I think it reflects far better on my appearance if I focus the time and energy that would go to fashion and good food and cooking that good food.

OP- you're young, female, and living in a city like I am. Unfortunately, we're in a very appearance-focused demographic by default. You work two jobs, so presumably scouring thrift stores takes a bit more time than you generally have. As such, I highly recommend a capsule wardrobe. Added bonus: if you have a relative who is a "gifts=love" love language sort, be sure they have your measurements =D My mother has gotten me some truly awful clothing, but has also gotten me a couple of the foundation pieces I've worn and have held up for a decade now.

At least half my wardrobe has been compiled through years of bi-annual clothing swaps, so that's how I deal with lack of time / lack of thrift stores :)

My friends are so stylish! Yay.

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Re: "The most expensive jeans will not change my life" - or would they?
« Reply #45 on: April 08, 2015, 08:41:43 AM »
This TED talk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21j_OCNLuYg) really underscores some issues that I've been contemplating lately. Buying fashion items does not actually improve our lives... or does it? Does increased social standing improve our lives? When we look nicer, people treat us nicer.

How to find balance? I realize that "not caring" is an easy answer, but there are numerous studies out there about how perceived status and beauty can make people treat you nicer. I like being treated better because of how I look, I'll admit it. It also helps my self-confidence to look good and feel good. But I'd also like to forgo that in order to save money and stop keeping up with the Joneses.

So how do you find balance?



One can look nice without spendign $200 on jeans.  I agree that showing up in clothes that are in bad shape--even just obviously worn but without holes or stains--can have an effect on how we are treated.  Fit also comes into play.  Ill-fitting clothes make one look less put together.  Overall, being badly dressed can definitely affect peoples perceptions of us, can suggest a lack of respect for those with whom you are interacting, and can affect self-confidence.

Thankfully, you can find jeans without stains and which fit well for less than $150. 

So I think it is important to differentiate between well-fitting clothes in good shape, and expensive clothes.  They are not synonymous.

I also think that mindfully selecting pieces that work well with most of your other clothing, that are good quality and will hold up well, and that are perfect (or can be made perfect with moderate alternations) rather than "well, these jeans are on sale and I like the wash and they fit my thighs well, so I can ignore the gap in the waist", is far more important than having the It jean.  And you will look better, feel better, and spend less money as well.   

Foundation pieces are where you should spend your money.  This includes your jeans.  If you really want to try out edgy trends, you can do that with a couple cheap pieces that you wear with those foundation garments which last for years. 

TonyPlush

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Re: "The most expensive jeans will not change my life" - or would they?
« Reply #46 on: April 08, 2015, 09:03:46 AM »
And, I think, the most important aspect is maintaining physical fitness and a healthy weight.  I have gone through stages of my life where I spent quite a bit (for me) of money on haircuts and colors, nice clothing, etc.  But I noticed that I only felt good about myself up to a point.  However, when I had been doing a good job of eating healthily, getting exercise regularly, etc., my skin looked better, my clothes fit better, and in general I felt better about myself.  Eventually, I realized that I had a much stronger impulse to go out and spend money on nice clothing when I was feeling less physically attractive.  In other words, often I was wanting to buy that clothing to mask those extra few pounds, or the fact that I felt flabby instead of toned. 
Best point. As a guy, I always shake my head at the girls who spend and spend on designer clothing, but are out of shape. Talk about treating the wrong symptom. All the designer brands in the world won't make you as attractive to men as just being in shape. And newsflash, guys are imagining you naked anyway. Spend more time in the gym and less in the mall, I guarantee you'll look and feel better.


Villanelle

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Re: "The most expensive jeans will not change my life" - or would they?
« Reply #47 on: April 08, 2015, 11:39:54 AM »
And, I think, the most important aspect is maintaining physical fitness and a healthy weight.  I have gone through stages of my life where I spent quite a bit (for me) of money on haircuts and colors, nice clothing, etc.  But I noticed that I only felt good about myself up to a point.  However, when I had been doing a good job of eating healthily, getting exercise regularly, etc., my skin looked better, my clothes fit better, and in general I felt better about myself.  Eventually, I realized that I had a much stronger impulse to go out and spend money on nice clothing when I was feeling less physically attractive.  In other words, often I was wanting to buy that clothing to mask those extra few pounds, or the fact that I felt flabby instead of toned. 
Best point. As a guy, I always shake my head at the girls who spend and spend on designer clothing, but are out of shape. Talk about treating the wrong symptom. All the designer brands in the world won't make you as attractive to men as just being in shape. And newsflash, guys are imagining you naked anyway. Spend more time in the gym and less in the mall, I guarantee you'll look and feel better.

Umm, has it occurred to you that perhaps some women want to look good for themselves, and their primary concern isn't being aesthetically pleasing to a man? 

Shake your head all you want.  Plenty of women, in shape or not, aren't going to be interested in attracting a man with this mindset anyway, to I guess it works out well. 

Livewell

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Re: "The most expensive jeans will not change my life" - or would they?
« Reply #48 on: April 08, 2015, 12:54:16 PM »
To me this is difference between frugal and cheap, as discussed by MMM

Buy nice clothes, I shop at Nordstrom myself.  I need nice clothes for work.  I buy their brand on sale only - shirt might be $40.  They last longer because they are higher quality, I've had done for 5-8 years.  I'm being frugal. 

I could buy a $10 shirt, but it would look like shit after a couple of washes and I'd have to replace it.

Buy the nice jeans, just wear them for 5+ years.  It's the constant churn to stay up with the current style that will get you into trouble.

Retired To Win

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DH worked for a European company for many years, and I learned a lot from Europeans. Have a few nice separates in one neutral color family that look good on you and look good together. These can be acquired at thrift shops or on Ebay very inexpensively. Add a few colorful accessories. (Scarves are super cheap at thrift shops.) Buy good quality comfortable shoes at an outlet mall. Get a colorful tote that plays off your neutrals from an outlet mall or from Ebay.

Excellent advice and wardrobe strategy.  Back in the day, mix and matching suit pants, jackets and blazers -- and either wearing or not wearing the suit vests -- gave me a tremendous permutation of different looks from just a few pieces.  And that would escalate even further when I factored in the different tone shirts and a variety of ties.

And making sure the styles of all that stuff was traditional/classic, it never went out of style.  Win!

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!