"Retirement" doesn't exist, so don't chase money

[Ricky]

We all know that retirement does not mean having enough money to never have to work again because we never will want to do anything once in retirement. It doesn't mean sitting outside at club houses every day or outsourcing everything we used to do for the rest of our lives.

Retirement, for us, Mustachians, is to be able to do what we want to do with our time. To have the option to "not work" if there area days or certain periods of our lives that we don't want to. To have a continual stream of "mini-retirements" rather than one long continuous duration of idleness.

So thus, I conclude, working at a job you don't like or hate going in to every day even if you're making well over 6 figures is not worth the time you're giving up when you could be doing things you really love. And if you don't know what your really love to do, you're giving up the time you'd otherwise be spending on tinkering and experimenting until you find that thing you love every day. You should never take a job for the money*, because ultimately you're still going to have to find something to do when you finally "quit".

At the end of the day we are all trading our time for something. I'd rather trade it for happiness than money, and I bet most of you would too.

*This obviously doesn't apply if you have no way to survive until you can find what your passions and burning desire are.

[EarlyStart]

I generally agree with your sentiment, but trade offs have to be made on an individual basis. Each person's values are different. There's also no perfect answer to what an appropriate amount is worthwhile compensation for temporarily working a job that you don't like. Assuming there were no ethical issues with a job, what would you have to be paid to suffer through it for 2-3 years if you strongly disliked the corporate culture and coworkers? 100k, 250k, 1m, 5m? 0? The answer would be different for everyone. What if it allowed you to FIRE 2-3 years after finishing school? 5 years? 10?

 I will say that time is perhaps our most finite commodity, so your point is well made.

[deborah]

We all know that retirement does not mean having enough money to never have to work again because we never will want to do anything once in retirement. It doesn't mean sitting outside at club houses every day or outsourcing everything we used to do for the rest of our lives.

Maybe it does for some of us! And here I thought FI meant you had enough money to never have to work again.

[caliq]

We all know that retirement does not mean having enough money to never have to work again because we never will want to do anything once in retirement. It doesn't mean sitting outside at club houses every day or outsourcing everything we used to do for the rest of our lives.

Maybe it does for some of us! And here I thought FI meant you had enough money to never have to work again.

+1

[irishbear99]

We all know that retirement does not mean having enough money to never have to work again because we never will want to do anything once in retirement.

I'm going to have to go with speak for yourself on this one. Retirement to me DOES mean having enough money to never work again. That doesn't mean I plan to do nothing in retirement. It just means that the things I want to do in retirement are things that no one will pay me for (or at least, pay a living wage for). I won't be idle. My time will be my own and I have glorious plans for it.

[AJ]

We all know that retirement does not mean having enough money to never have to work again because we never will want to do anything once in retirement.

I'm going to have to go with speak for yourself on this one. Retirement to me DOES mean having enough money to never work again. That doesn't mean I plan to do nothing in retirement. It just means that the things I want to do in retirement are things that no one will pay me for (or at least, pay a living wage for). I won't be idle. My time will be my own and I have glorious plans for it.

Yep, same here. Retirement absolutely means never *having* to work again. I may choose to, but that is very different than being required to. A string of "mini retirements" has never appealed to me. I'd rather rip the band-aid off, so to speak, by working a few years at something I don't love for the pay, followed by a lifetime of freedom.

[Ricky]

We all know that retirement does not mean having enough money to never have to work again because we never will want to do anything once in retirement. It doesn't mean sitting outside at club houses every day or outsourcing everything we used to do for the rest of our lives.

Maybe it does for some of us! And here I thought FI meant you had enough money to never have to work again.

I don't think it really works like this in practice though. I think ideally, yes, we do want a world in which it isn't necessary that we trade our time for money or things that we need, when trading the time requires unhappiness. This is the definition of financial independence, which yes, means that you have the choice.

But to say at 30-40, "I'm never working again", even if you can do it with no, is incredibly untrue. We work, whether it is making our own meals, doing our own chores, or at the office. And you're mind won't just suddenly stop thinking about projects and ways to make differences in the world, even if you don't care about getting compensated for it. Everything we do is "work", whether we're getting paid for it or not.

I guess my point is that I've found to never settle. If there's something in your life that you don't like, then get rid of it. If there's something you want to do, then do it. There's no point in being miserable for 5-10 years of your life just to build up enough money to "not work", since there's no such thing as not working.

The lifetime of freedom you speak of should be right now, in the moment. Why sacrifice?

[nawhite]

We all know that retirement does not mean having enough money to never have to work again because we never will want to do anything once in retirement.

I'm going to have to go with speak for yourself on this one. Retirement to me DOES mean having enough money to never work again. That doesn't mean I plan to do nothing in retirement. It just means that the things I want to do in retirement are things that no one will pay me for (or at least, pay a living wage for). I won't be idle. My time will be my own and I have glorious plans for it.

+1

Same here. For example, I want to whitewater kayak as much as possible (more hours kayaking per lifetime = better) for the years that I'm able and raise a family with my amazing wife (neither goal is work or money related). I have 3 options, the first is extremely unlikely:

1. I figure out how to go pro and get paid by a kayaking company for about 10 years to kayak or sell shit every day. After the 10 years are up, I still have to figure out how to make money and live an retire and will probably end up moving on to plan number 2.

2. Get a job as a rafting guide and kayak instructor. I'll get paid about $10k/year (20k if I figure out how to get to South America for the winter) which is barely surviving (not to mention my wife wouldn't be a fan of that salary and raising a family on that would be really hard). I could probably work until I'm about 50 but after that working in the industry is just too hard. Oh yeah, and my 10k didn't exactly make for a great retirement fund.

3. Work the computer job I have making 6 figures for another 8-ish years, at that point, I will have saved enough to never work again (the MMM way). I will then be able to spend every waking moment kayaking with no bosses, no selling stuff, no public appearances, no worries about money or health insurance for my wife and kids, no expectation to do crappy "intro to kayaking" lessons on days when the water is up and I want to hit the class V. And I'll have a retirement account to take care of me when I'm too old and decrepit to work. Not to mention this plan sits WAY better with my wife and happy wife = happy life.

So I choose plan 3 because it maximizes kayaking time and helps me raise a family, even if I'm not doing either of those things right now. Long term picture.

Granted, I do make the best of plan 3 by taking a part time job during the season as a kayak instructor. Pays for the gear at least!

[Ricky]

We all know that retirement does not mean having enough money to never have to work again because we never will want to do anything once in retirement.

I'm going to have to go with speak for yourself on this one. Retirement to me DOES mean having enough money to never work again. That doesn't mean I plan to do nothing in retirement. It just means that the things I want to do in retirement are things that no one will pay me for (or at least, pay a living wage for). I won't be idle. My time will be my own and I have glorious plans for it.

3. Work the computer job I have making 6 figures for another 8-ish years, at that point, I will have saved enough to never work again (the MMM way). I will then be able to spend every waking moment kayaking with no bosses, no selling stuff, no public appearances, no worries about money or health insurance for my wife and kids, no expectation to do crappy "intro to kayaking" lessons on days when the water is up and I want to hit the class V. And I'll have a retirement account to take care of me when I'm too old and decrepit to work. Not to mention this plan sits WAY better with my wife and happy wife = happy life.

So I choose plan 3 because it maximizes kayaking time and helps me raise a family, even if I'm not doing either of those things right now. Long term picture.

That's great as long as you like your job and are fully satisfied with what you're doing. I just see so many people on these forums complaining about how much they hate their job, or how they're begrudgingly counting down days to "FIRE". There just isn't a point in waiting if you're that unhappy. Waiting for something to happen just sounds so depressing. Make it happen?

Doing what you love doesn't mean you have to be a pro kayak-er or kayak instructor. There are other things you love too, and things that you don't even know you love. By love, I mean to be happy.

[deborah]

We all know that retirement does not mean having enough money to never have to work again because we never will want to do anything once in retirement. It doesn't mean sitting outside at club houses every day or outsourcing everything we used to do for the rest of our lives.

Maybe it does for some of us! And here I thought FI meant you had enough money to never have to work again.

I don't think it really works like this in practice though. I think ideally, yes, we do want a world in which it isn't necessary that we trade our time for money or things that we need, when trading the time requires unhappiness. This is the definition of financial independence, which yes, means that you have the choice.

But to say at 30-40, "I'm never working again", even if you can do it with no, is incredibly untrue.

The people I physically know (including myself) who have retired early ALL have never worked again, and there are a number of people on this forum who also have never worked again. The ones who DO work again appear to me to be in the minority.

[NoraLenderbee]

We work, whether it is making our own meals, doing our own chores, or at the office. And you're mind won't just suddenly stop thinking about projects and ways to make differences in the world, even if you don't care about getting compensated for it. Everything we do is "work", whether we're getting paid for it or not.

Well, if you redefine work as "everything," then yes, there is no such thing as retirement. OTOH, if everything we do is "work," we might as well get paid for some of it so we can feed ourselves and stuff.

[innerscorecard]

This was a really weird post. If you think about anything too much, you can twist yourself up in knots like this.

[arebelspy]

I agree with the OP's overall message, even if not the exact content.

I also agree with all of the other posters who are saying retirement means never having to work again.

But the overall message, I think, is getting lost due to some poor early wording.

Here's how I read it: If you're doing something you hate just to make money to build up to a time that you can quit and don't have to make any money, instead just quit now and do something that you enjoy, even if it makes you less money.  You'll get to be where you want in FIRE (doing something you like) much sooner, without doing the part you hate.

I agree with that part.

I know many will disagree, but.. this:

The lifetime of freedom you speak of should be right now, in the moment. Why sacrifice?

[act0fgod]

For some reason I find that if I have to do something, like work, it looses the enjoyability factor.  I've had many different jobs and every one of them turned into something I didn't enjoy doing.  Whenever someone asks me how I decided to enter my current career I let them know I picked a field that has a high ratio of pay/hours worked and also something I don't hate.  My first career was something that I started as a fun hobby, when it became mandatory I stopped enjoying it and stopped.  Probably a personal problem and maybe FI would enable me to enjoy work knowing I wouldn't have to do it.  That being said by the 4% rule people use here my wife and I could stop working based on our current investments and annual spending, and work is still work not something I love.

[golden1]

The first thing you need to realise is that not everybody is capable of happiness. Some people are biologically constituted such that they do not experience that particular emotion. You can't make decisions based on happiness if you don't experience happiness.

When I was a child, I used to want to be happy, but once I realised that was impossible for me, I set my sights on more realistic goals instead, like being able to escape from society and do whatever I want, on my own terms, with no obligations to anybody else whatsoever. The early retirement program is the practical way to achieve something close to that.

Fuck.

That is the single saddest and most depressing thing I have ever read.  Anhedonia and/or depression is NOT okay and NOT to be just accepted.  I repeat, this is not okay and you are worth more than what you are allowing yourself.

You can be happy.  Trust me.  As someone who suffered from dysthymia for years, I thought it was just the way I was and that I could not change it.  I was very, very wrong.  You can change your happiness set point.  It takes a lot of work, but the rewards are immeasurable. 

[golden1]

Regarding the OP's statement, I also see my life a serious of working periods and not working periods.  I worked for 7 years, then was a SAHM for 8 years, and now have been working again for almost 4 years.  I AM currently somewhat unhappy in my job, but I am looking for another position, and I am sucking it up for a few more years while my husband builds his dream business.  I unfortunately, can't just concentrate on what would make me personally happy....although in a way I am, because pursuing my own agenda at the expense of those I love would NOT make me happy, so I am putting up with temporary unhappiness to focus on big picture happiness.  More selfishly, if my husband's business works out, it will allow me to semi-retire in a shorter time frame than I otherwise plan on.  I never really plan on retiring fully in any case.  From my stint at being a SAHM, I don't function well without having somewhere to go a few days a week around people.  I will either work part time in retail or something, or I will join clubs and volunteer heavily.  Otherwise, I will become a shut in.  :P

[Fishingmn]

So thus, I conclude, working at a job you don't like or hate going in to every day even if you're making well over 6 figures is not worth the time you're giving up when you could be doing things you really love. And if you don't know what your really love to do, you're giving up the time you'd otherwise be spending on tinkering and experimenting until you find that thing you love every day. You should never take a job for the money*, because ultimately you're still going to have to find something to do when you finally "quit".

At the end of the day we are all trading our time for something. I'd rather trade it for happiness than money, and I bet most of you would too.

From my own experiences I would disagree with most of this post.

I spent 21 years in a job that was just okay. That said, I made great money and it gave my family the resources needed to be able to retire today (52) if I wanted. It could be a full retirement, never work again and spend many "x" more than the typical mustachian. The job also allowed me lots of freedom to work from home and flexibility to be involved with family.

So according to the OP I should have traded in the money & flexibility to seek out a job that I "loved". No thanks.

And the final rub - there's no guarantee that I'd actually find that job I really liked all that much better.

[mak1277]

And the final rub - there's no guarantee that I'd actually find that job I really liked all that much better.

This, for me, is the key, along with what act0fgod said.  I have tried, very hard, to imagine finding work that I truly enjoyed doing and didn't lose its enjoyability.  I simply cannot imagine such a thing, even in my wildest dreams.  As soon as something becomes "work" or "mandatory" I quickly lose all enjoyment for it. 

I used to LOVE playing poker...then I picked up online poker as a side hustle early in my working career.  I played a LOT of poker for a period of 2-3 years, and it was a nice little income stream....but then I burned out on it because it felt like work.  And I haven't played in almost a decade, despite enjoying the game.

So I am in a position where I know myself well enough to know that there is no job out there that I will ever love enough to want to keep doing it.  So my goal is to get paid as much as possible over the next half decade until I hit my FIRE goal.  Then I'm never going to work again.

[Philociraptor]

And the final rub - there's no guarantee that I'd actually find that job I really liked all that much better.

This, for me, is the key, along with what act0fgod said.  I have tried, very hard, to imagine finding work that I truly enjoyed doing and didn't lose its enjoyability.  I simply cannot imagine such a thing, even in my wildest dreams.  As soon as something becomes "work" or "mandatory" I quickly lose all enjoyment for it. 

I used to LOVE playing poker...then I picked up online poker as a side hustle early in my working career.  I played a LOT of poker for a period of 2-3 years, and it was a nice little income stream....but then I burned out on it because it felt like work.  And I haven't played in almost a decade, despite enjoying the game.

So I am in a position where I know myself well enough to know that there is no job out there that I will ever love enough to want to keep doing it.  So my goal is to get paid as much as possible over the next half decade until I hit my FIRE goal.  Then I'm never going to work again.

Same. I can't imagine ever enjoying paid employment, so I'll take the job that pays me the most, with the most free time available to do other stuff while I'm there. I'll FIRE sooner and then not have to take on any more paid employment.

[Metta]

The first thing you need to realise is that not everybody is capable of happiness. Some people are biologically constituted such that they do not experience that particular emotion. You can't make decisions based on happiness if you don't experience happiness.

When I was a child, I used to want to be happy, but once I realised that was impossible for me, I set my sights on more realistic goals instead, like being able to escape from society and do whatever I want, on my own terms, with no obligations to anybody else whatsoever. The early retirement program is the practical way to achieve something close to that.

Fuck.

That is the single saddest and most depressing thing I have ever read.  Anhedonia and/or depression is NOT okay and NOT to be just accepted.  I repeat, this is not okay and you are worth more than what you are allowing yourself.

You can be happy.  Trust me.  As someone who suffered from dysthymia for years, I thought it was just the way I was and that I could not change it.  I was very, very wrong.  You can change your happiness set point.  It takes a lot of work, but the rewards are immeasurable.

I agree, this seems very sad to me. My happiness set-point is generally pretty high. If I'm getting enough sleep and exercise and generally eating well, I tend to be happy no matter what else is going on. However, once I am no longer sleeping through the night (perhaps because my on-call phone keeps ringing or perhaps because work requires long hours) then I deteriorate quickly. My husband often exists for months on end with a low level sadness that does not respond as quickly to getting enough sleep and eating well. He has always been this way and is worse if he has to deal with people. He is extremely introverted and people wear him out.

What did you do to change your happiness set point?

[arebelspy]

And the final rub - there's no guarantee that I'd actually find that job I really liked all that much better.

This, for me, is the key, along with what act0fgod said.  I have tried, very hard, to imagine finding work that I truly enjoyed doing and didn't lose its enjoyability.  I simply cannot imagine such a thing, even in my wildest dreams.  As soon as something becomes "work" or "mandatory" I quickly lose all enjoyment for it. 

I used to LOVE playing poker...then I picked up online poker as a side hustle early in my working career.  I played a LOT of poker for a period of 2-3 years, and it was a nice little income stream....but then I burned out on it because it felt like work.  And I haven't played in almost a decade, despite enjoying the game.

So I am in a position where I know myself well enough to know that there is no job out there that I will ever love enough to want to keep doing it.  So my goal is to get paid as much as possible over the next half decade until I hit my FIRE goal.  Then I'm never going to work again.

Same. I can't imagine ever enjoying paid employment, so I'll take the job that pays me the most, with the most free time available to do other stuff while I'm there. I'll FIRE sooner and then not have to take on any more paid employment.

But surely there are things you hate to do.

While I think the "find something you love" is a misnomer because of people's hangups around the word love, how about we rephrase it to "don't do a job you hate to do just for the money"?

Grinding away years of your life at something you hate so you can have happiness and freedom afterwards is a waste. Find something you don't hate, and do that for years.  Then be FI.

I think you'll be able to find something you don't hate (which solves the "What if I don't find something I love to do" or "I wouldn't love to do any paid work, or anything at all").

[golden1]

I did take medication for a brief period of time, and it helped initially.  I stopped taking medication and have maintained my mood with a multi-faceted approach.

1) CBT - cognitive behavioral therapy.  I would start by reading "Feeling Good" by David Burns.  You moods are not who you are, they are controlled by the voices or inner dialogue in your head, and that dialogue can be controlled.

2) Mindfulness meditation - just 10 minutes a day, plus practicing it at other times when I have the opportunity.  If you are a non-believer in meditation, try reading "10% happier" by Dan Harris.  It is the story of a non-believer whose life was out of balance who started meditating despite a feeling that it was "mumbo-jumbo". 

3) Walking/running in the daylight every day.  I take a 20 minute walk at lunch and run 3 days a week.  I'd like it to be more but winter makes it tough.  It is important to get that sunshine/fresh air and it makes a huge difference to mood.  Movement really works and is a natural antidepressant. 

4) Social interaction - I am an introvert and left to my natural devices I would be a shut in.  Then those negative voices take over.  I have to force myself to socialize but I never (ok, rarely) regret it. 

The funny part is that a lot of this is very mustachian.  A lot of what attracted me to this blog is the neverending search I have for wisdom and happiness.  I believe that wisdom lies in having the proper perspective, and this also leads to a deeper sense of happiness in my own life. 

[mak1277]

And the final rub - there's no guarantee that I'd actually find that job I really liked all that much better.

This, for me, is the key, along with what act0fgod said.  I have tried, very hard, to imagine finding work that I truly enjoyed doing and didn't lose its enjoyability.  I simply cannot imagine such a thing, even in my wildest dreams.  As soon as something becomes "work" or "mandatory" I quickly lose all enjoyment for it. 

I used to LOVE playing poker...then I picked up online poker as a side hustle early in my working career.  I played a LOT of poker for a period of 2-3 years, and it was a nice little income stream....but then I burned out on it because it felt like work.  And I haven't played in almost a decade, despite enjoying the game.

So I am in a position where I know myself well enough to know that there is no job out there that I will ever love enough to want to keep doing it.  So my goal is to get paid as much as possible over the next half decade until I hit my FIRE goal.  Then I'm never going to work again.

Same. I can't imagine ever enjoying paid employment, so I'll take the job that pays me the most, with the most free time available to do other stuff while I'm there. I'll FIRE sooner and then not have to take on any more paid employment.

But surely there are things you hate to do.

While I think the "find something you love" is a misnomer because of people's hangups around the word love, how about we rephrase it to "don't do a job you hate to do just for the money"?

Grinding away years of your life at something you hate so you can have happiness and freedom afterwards is a waste. Find something you don't hate, and do that for years.  Then be FI.

I think you'll be able to find something you don't hate (which solves the "What if I don't find something I love to do" or "I wouldn't love to do any paid work, or anything at all").

I hate working.  period.  Are some jobs worse than others? sure....but they ALL suck (in my perception at least).

[NICE!]

I disagree with these types of thoughts because I believe that they are based upon a perspective that is inherently anti-work. I feel that work has value in and of itself. People who constantly insisting that you must "do what you love" aren't thinking about the billions of people both throughout history and today who simply do not have this option.

There is value in laying bricks.

There is value in driving a recycling truck.

There is value in teaching children a foreign language.

There is value in being a nanny.

And yes, there is even value in data entry.

[arebelspy]

I disagree with these types of thoughts because I believe that they are based upon a perspective that is inherently anti-work.

I disagree.

I feel that work has value in and of itself. People who constantly insisting that you must "do what you love" aren't thinking about the billions of people both throughout history and today who simply do not have this option.

There is value in laying bricks.

There is value in driving a recycling truck.

There is value in teaching children a foreign language.

There is value in being a nanny.

And yes, there is even value in data entry.

Yes there is.

ANd there's value in enjoying each of those things.  Even if you don't "love" it.  But if you hate it, you should do something else.

[Ricky]

I feel that work has value in and of itself. People who constantly insisting that you must "do what you love" aren't thinking about the billions of people both throughout history and today who simply do not have this option.

There is value in laying bricks.

There is value in driving a recycling truck.

There is value in teaching children a foreign language.

There is value in being a nanny.

And yes, there is even value in data entry.

Yes there is.

ANd there's value in enjoying each of those things.  Even if you don't "love" it.  But if you hate it, you should do something else.

Exactly, doing a job you love doesn't have to be singing or acting. There are plenty of menial jobs you may love, or at the least be much happier doing. There's no reason to settle is the underlying message, because ultimately we are constantly doing something.

[mak1277]

I feel that work has value in and of itself. People who constantly insisting that you must "do what you love" aren't thinking about the billions of people both throughout history and today who simply do not have this option.

There is value in laying bricks.

There is value in driving a recycling truck.

There is value in teaching children a foreign language.

There is value in being a nanny.

And yes, there is even value in data entry.

Yes there is.

ANd there's value in enjoying each of those things.  Even if you don't "love" it.  But if you hate it, you should do something else.

Exactly, doing a job you love doesn't have to be singing or acting. There are plenty of menial jobs you may love, or at the least be much happier doing. There's no reason to settle is the underlying message, because ultimately we are constantly doing something.

We are constantly doing *something*.  And I want to be doing *something* that I want to do...not something that I *have* to do.  When push comes to shove, I'm never going to pick "work" over "fun"...so why would I want to work any longer than I have to.  Right now, I don't actually have any problems with my job.  I get paid well, have low stress, and feel like what I'm doing is fairly beneficial to the company and our customers.  All that said, I am STILL counting down the days to FIRE because I'd rather be...walking in the woods, canoeing, watching tv, reading, sleeping, etc., etc., etc....than working.

[arebelspy]

Right now, I don't actually have any problems with my job.  I get paid well, have low stress, and feel like what I'm doing is fairly beneficial to the company and our customers.

So you're in a good situation.

All that said, I am STILL counting down the days to FIRE because I'd rather be...walking in the woods, canoeing, watching tv, reading, sleeping, etc., etc., etc....than working.

Absolutely agree, me too.

The point is, even if you want to get to FIRE, if you're in a job you hate, switch to something else.  You may still want to FIRE, but hating your life isn't worth it.  You may not find a job you love, but you can find one that hits those above criteria you said when discussing your job.

[mak1277]

Right now, I don't actually have any problems with my job.  I get paid well, have low stress, and feel like what I'm doing is fairly beneficial to the company and our customers.

So you're in a good situation.

All that said, I am STILL counting down the days to FIRE because I'd rather be...walking in the woods, canoeing, watching tv, reading, sleeping, etc., etc., etc....than working.

Absolutely agree, me too.

The point is, even if you want to get to FIRE, if you're in a job you hate, switch to something else.  You may still want to FIRE, but hating your life isn't worth it.  You may not find a job you love, but you can find one that hits those above criteria you said when discussing your job.

Maybe...but if you came to me and told me I could cut my time to FIRE from 5 yrs to 2 yrs, but I had to work a miserable job, I'd probably take that deal without much hesitation.  Now it's a different story for sure if you're going from 15 to 12, or even 7 to 5 years.

[arebelspy]

Sure.  Each person must decide what their level is.

I personally wouldn't want to be unhappy for a year.

It makes me sad to think of the people doing a job they dislike for decades, with no hope of quitting.

What a shame.

[netskyblue]

"Just switch jobs" is easier said than done. 

I HATE my job.  I hate the idea of selling the hours of my life, but I hate my industry pretty badly.  I've been applying to similar jobs in different industries for 4 years.  I'm not qualified for much, there's the specific job I do, and other than that, basic customer service/data entry is all I know.

I could probably get a low paying job (minimum wage or a bit above), but if I could live off it, I couldn't save enough to ever have the things I want in life - a house with an acreage (this being the thing I want most in the world), and the freedom to stop working entirely before my body stops me.

I'm not sure trading "I hate this job" for "I don't really like this job" to end up with LESS at the end of life, is worth it.  Maybe if there was such a thing as "I love this job." But that's not a real thing.  At least, not for everyone.    Selling someone the use of me, no matter what the task, is repellant. 

So, I say, take the best thing that you can get.  Keep trying to find better.  And put away as much as you can, so you can stop.

When I hit FI, unless some disaster wipes away that state, I can swear I will NEVER work for a wage again.

[arebelspy]

I HATE my job.

I say this with all sincerity: You should quit yesterday.

[Cassie]

I totally agree with Arebelspy. I have known people that had no choice in past generations but to work a certain job, etc & that is sad.  I have had jobs I hated but did not stay in them.  Went to college & obtained a profession that I sometimes loved but always liked. Life is too short to do otherwise.  Re-train if you are miserable.  Some people die before they retire & how sad if they wasted their lives in jobs they hated.  At age 60 I love working p.t. for myself & really missed it the first 6 months in retirement when I did not.  There is such a big difference from working in your own home & planning your own schedule to going to an office everyday, etc. 

[Metta]

I did take medication for a brief period of time, and it helped initially.  I stopped taking medication and have maintained my mood with a multi-faceted approach.

1) CBT - cognitive behavioral therapy.  I would start by reading "Feeling Good" by David Burns.  You moods are not who you are, they are controlled by the voices or inner dialogue in your head, and that dialogue can be controlled.

2) Mindfulness meditation - just 10 minutes a day, plus practicing it at other times when I have the opportunity.  If you are a non-believer in meditation, try reading "10% happier" by Dan Harris.  It is the story of a non-believer whose life was out of balance who started meditating despite a feeling that it was "mumbo-jumbo". 

3) Walking/running in the daylight every day.  I take a 20 minute walk at lunch and run 3 days a week.  I'd like it to be more but winter makes it tough.  It is important to get that sunshine/fresh air and it makes a huge difference to mood.  Movement really works and is a natural antidepressant. 

4) Social interaction - I am an introvert and left to my natural devices I would be a shut in.  Then those negative voices take over.  I have to force myself to socialize but I never (ok, rarely) regret it. 

The funny part is that a lot of this is very mustachian.  A lot of what attracted me to this blog is the neverending search I have for wisdom and happiness.  I believe that wisdom lies in having the proper perspective, and this also leads to a deeper sense of happiness in my own life.

Thank you for such a thorough answer. When my husband can run, he can often outrun the blues, particularly in the spring and summer. (Winter brings its own sad darkness.) Part of the reason we both long to live in New Mexico is that we are hungry for the sun and the desert pours sunshine down in great abundance.

It is a strange thing. I meditate because he taught me to do it when we were teens (I later sought instruction from experts) but he no longer meditates except as a part of yoga. I think meditation would do him good but since he will not join me in it, he joins me in yoga instead. Whatever works, I suppose.

It is good to know that the social interaction I set up for us is not doing him any harm. I try to avoid adding too many activities with other people. His tolerance level is once or twice a month (but not twice every month) and I try to arrange something with a small number of people each month (gaming, attending the theater, wine-tastings, etc.).

I will pick up the book you recommend. Perhaps it will do both of us some good.

[greaper007]

In may, it will be my 6th anniversary of being job free.   Then again I've been a stay at home dad the whole time so I haven't really been job free.   I've just been working without a paycheck.   

Everyone's situation is different, and they have to mold this philosophy around that.    You may have a lower paying job that you like, but you'd like to have the mental freedom associated with a healthy fallback cache.    You may have a spouse that doesn't completely agree with you.   You may have debt.    You may want to retire at 45 instead of 30.

Personally, I'm not sure what the future will hold for me when all my kids are in school full time.    My wife has a successful business that she doesn't always hate.   I don't have an immediately available skill that transfers to high pay.    I have an airline transport pilot's license and whole buch of other acronyms, but I'd have to start at $20,000 a year again and work my way up to a liveable salary (not to mention time spent away from my family).   

So I don't really see myself grinding away at some shitty high paying job just so I can retire when my kids are about to go to college.   I was already on that path and it wasn't worth it.   I'd rather find ways to live frugally and substitute that for a stache.    Perhaps my wife and I can take mini-retirements during our empty nest years.    This is still a great forum to figure out ways to live on way less money.   That gives you options for how you can spend your time in much the same way that early retirement does.

[clifp]

Life is too short to work at job you hate, but money is too precious to only work at job you love.

I think it is important to achieve a balance. If you can "tap dance to work", and still make billions like Warren Buffett then you are truly blessed. I don't think it is a realistic expectation for most people. I know people who seemed to love their menial job, while most others hated the job.  Upon some thought I believe this has more to do with person than the job.

My best friend in high school, worked in high school and part time college as grip (the guys who build sets and such on TV and movie ) I think he made $12 an hour when most of his peers at McDonald was making $2.75 and I felt lucky to have a box boy job at $3.50    He went to UCLA and got Computer Science and got job at aerospace company as a software engineer,  the pay was good, the project sounded interesting to me. and it was very close to his house in one of the beach community to LA. But he hated it, all of his boss sucked, they were out to get him.  So he quit the job and opened up a photography studio.  He loved being his own boss,and while shooting weddings,and anniversary weren't exactly what he had in mind it sort of paid his bills but not in expensive LA. So he took his wife, young daughter and move to the California wine country, which was affordable at the time. He spent the next couple of years trying to make a living as a photographer, and his wife  opened a day care spent more time taking care of other people children than her own.  Eventually, he gave up his dream of being a professional photographer. (He was good but not great).  He went back and got a software job at medium size firm. Again the job sounded pretty good to me reasonable hours, decent boss, good pay, moderately interesting technology. He liked the job better than working for big aerospace, but at best he tolerated it.  I finally realized that my friend who always seems so easy-going, and pretty even tempered all through school was a different person at work.  I wonder if his first job spoiled him, since it was semi-skilled labor that paid really great, and allowed you to hob nob with that cute starlets.  I
I eventually lost contact with him but learned through his sister that life didn't get any easier for him.

I know a fair number of lawyers who found that while loved the law,they hated being lawyers and quit.  One investment banker who quit because "there were some ethical boundary who couldn't cross".  Still in my experience people who make $200,000/year get treated a lot better than people who make $25,000 so go for the money.

Making money work hard for me (aka managing my investments in retirement)i is by far the best job I've had.

[lizzie]

I don't hate my job. As jobs go, it is actually just about the perfect fit for me. I work in a small office with a tight-knit group of people who are interesting and smart. The job involves working on a whole range of civil and criminal cases--anything that comes up in federal court. Each case offers a glimpse of a different slice of life, from an industry I've never heard of, to the details of religious practices that I'm not familiar with, to the conditions that an immigrant faced in his home country, to new and let's say "creative" ways of breaking the law. It's like endless episodes of "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous Every Variety of Human." It's also a nice mix of longer-term research and writing projects and short-term problem-solving on the fly. And I'm very happy with the pay.

That said, it's still a job. It is stressful. The stakes are high and the thought of making a mistake is scary. My boss can be irritating sometimes because he's not particularly good at managing and using resources efficiently. There's a certain amount of boring drudge work, as with most jobs. There's a ton of work so it's always been a 50+ hour a week job even when we're not especially busy. And sometimes I feel like I'm just not smart enough or have bitten off more than I can chew. Also, my ideal pace of living is much slower and more relaxed than a fulltime job really allows for.

I think these kinds of feelings are pretty normal, even when you generally like your job. Since encountering MMM and realizing that I could retire earlier than 65, though, I've found myself at times overly obsessed with retirement, focusing on the date, calculating and recalculating the numbers, and just basically dreaming about the future and wishing I could get there faster.

I recently read a very wise comment that is helping me to rethink my approach to the remainder of my working life, and not to just wish it over as soon as possible. It went something like this (for context, it was addressed to someone who was very frustrated at being unable to find a romantic partner, but I think it is useful anytime you're unsatisfied with where you currently are in life):

It's possible that you will always be in the situation you're currently in. You can do your best, but sometimes life just does not work out exactly how you want it to. With that in mind--or, put another way, if you knew you were always going to be living with whatever unsatisfactory thing it is that you are yearning to change--ask yourself: how would I care for myself, my body, my mind? How would I cultivate my interests and skills? How would I treat other people and engage with the world? How would I spend the free time that I have? What kind of contribution do I want to make to society?

Doing this mental exercise is helping me feel more balanced. Somehow it helps me feel like I can plan for the future without neglecting the present.

[rachael talcott]

I have a colleague (fellow college professor) who seemed like one of those people who is just biologically happy.  Then I met his wife, and she told me that he used to be miserable and had a transformation when he came to work here.  His story is that he worked for 20 years at a high-paying job that he hated (lawyer) before finally switching to teaching.   He says his lawyer job was a monkey trap.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTX7Cxq8aGc. 

[mak1277]

Sure.  Each person must decide what their level is.

I personally wouldn't want to be unhappy for a year.

It makes me sad to think of the people doing a job they dislike for decades, with no hope of quitting.

What a shame.

Here's where we diverge. Even though my job is "good" by objective standards, I'm still unhappy every Monday morning when I have to go back in. I guess you could say I'm at best ambivalent about my current job, but there really isn't a way to be happy about going to work every day.

[arebelspy]

Life is too short to work at job you hate, but money is too precious to only work at job you love.

Well said.

And as you age, time gets more precious and money easier to obtain. So front load your savings so you don't have to work anymore when you get old.