[UK] Return to work or take a risk and FIRE now?

[Liminalities]

Hello,

Long-time lurker here, who has been inspired by reading many UK journals.  I’m posting here mainly because you are such a helpful group of people but also because I am too shy to go on the main topics!  This may turn into a journal, but first I have a big decision to make:

I am seeking the benefit of your guidance in deciding if I could FIRE now (in a rather lean way), or should I go back to a well-paid but highly stressful role when my current sabbatical ends in six months and tough it out for a few more years.   My head tells me that is the sensible and safe option, but I really really don’t want to…

I am currently 42 and live in the south of England with my husband in a property that we own outright.  I am half way through my 12 month sabbatical.  It has taken me far longer than I’d expected to decompress and I honestly miss almost nothing about the workplace despite 20 years building a career there.  I am only now starting to do the things I have planned – creative projects, improving fitness, exploring all those interests that took a back seat to my career.  I have also realised how much work sapped my energy and enjoyment of life.

I’ve been running the numbers to see if I could get avoid going back, and it seems to be that I have 3 options:

1.   Go back to work as originally planned (in September), save hard and quit in 2-3 years (at current expenses I could achieve a 75% savings rate, buying me much more security).  I may be able to extend the sabbatical a bit but to do so would involve negotiating with the people who caused me the most stress.  If I just return I am likely to be with new people – however the downsides of the work would still remain. 

2.   Don’t return to work, and live off savings until DB pensions kick in, taking them (very) early.  Also, there is the option of relocating to a cheaper area to release equity, which is something we would like to do in 3-5 years whether I return to work or not.

3.   As above, but remain flexible about work, maybe doing something local and part time (or, in the words of NGU, FART?), or even pursuing a new career once I have got my energy back. 

I suppose what I would like to do is rule out option 1, but would that be foolish given my current circumstances and the wider picture, Brexit included?   From my current vantage point option 2 is most appealing, but I expect that will change and even now option 3 looks pretty good to me.

Without getting into the detail of the numbers, at my current level of expenditure and ignoring any interest/gains, my stash will last me until I am 52 and my pension would then cover a bit more than my expenses (with another one accessible at 57 and then state pension at 67).  That said, I don’t really have enough data about my spending when I am not working and I think there is scope to cut spending without affecting my quality of life (e.g. food).  I am tracking things now but I need to make a decision quite soon so I won’t have perfect data before I do.  What I do know is that the things I like doing best are either free or low cost, and I enjoy the challenge of solving problems without spending money or buying stuff, and learning new skills.

So, on paper this looks feasible – if a bit of a stab in the dark, or I am missing something big?  I am sure anyone I asked in real life would think I was crazy to even contemplate this (throw away a career, pass on opportunity to build up a big pension, get promoted etc. but none of that appeals any more).  I know cost of living will rise, Brexit brings uncertainty and life will always throw curveballs, but am I dreaming to think I could not return to work, at least for now?

I hope I’ve given enough to work with – I am a bit nervous about posting actual numbers and this post is long enough already, but happy to fill in the gaps!  Over to you for your thoughts…

Thanks in advance!

Liminalities

[never give up]

Hi Liminalities. Well done for considering your options so thoroughly. I hope you have a lovely spreadsheet to help you out too. I do love a spreadsheet. I find making decisions very difficult when I have the numbers, I completely appreciate you not wanting to post them but it makes it a little difficult for anyone to give precise advice. However you sound as though you are in a really good position.

From the information given I wonder if a hybrid approach may be best here. I think if I was in your position I would start with option 1 but if 3 years feels like a prison sentence and could affect your health, then let’s not do that. How about do 12-18 months? That would achieve the following:

1. Gets you through Brexit (Hopefully! We may be on the fourth referendum by then, perhaps we should go to penalties at that point :-)

2. At a 75% savings rate 12-18 months will do wonders for your stash.

3. Knowing you are going to leave in the not too distant future may be surprising in terms of the benefits to your experience of day to day work. You won’t be involving yourself with politics, chasing promotions, working silly hours. Go in, do your best, come home, enjoy the gains to your stash I.e. you are choosing to work there on your terms. You have the power. I do think that has a significant positive psychological impact.

I have terrible post holiday blues when I have a week off. After a year off I would have extreme anxiety about going back. I completely get that. I think it would be useful for you to try to work out how much is post sabbatical blues versus genuine concerns about your wellbeing at work. This is not an easy thing to distinguish between but 12-18 months could be doable?

After the 12-18 months you could then FART (Financial Accomplishment, Reduce Time) I.e. you are in a position where you are comfortable with your stash, you quit the horrible full time job, but go part time in a new enjoyable type job rather than fully FIRE.

This takes a lot of pressure off of the stash especially as you have low expenses and may be a good way of settling into your new more creative lifestyle before fully FIREing.

So this is a combination of options 1 & 3. I’m not sure I would go with option 2 because I’m sure there would be a job out there you could do aligned somewhat to your hobbies/skills that will just help with your overall stash. The relocation part could be pulled out separately if that is genuinely something you both want to do I.e. and are not being forced to do it because your stash isn’t high enough.

I would definitely recommend getting a firm grasp on your expenses as an immediate action. Without that information all other decisions are just wild guesses.

Good luck. I’m also 42, don’t like the stresses and strains of my job and am currently trying to get through the next few years in a career I have built since I got out of Uni, so I can completely relate on where you are coming from. Look after yourself. You can do this!

[PhilB]

As NGU says, it's difficult to advise without the numbers.  It's also difficult without knowing more about where your husband fits into all this - is he close to FIRE?  Loves his job and plans to work forever?  A non-working trophy husband and your stash and pensions are enough to cover both of you?
I would echo NGU's comments about going back for a shorter time, secure in the knowledge that you have epic FU money and can just refuse to do the bullshit.  I'd be much more inclined to go back planning to do a year and re-assess after 6 months. Planning to do two to three years just sounds like too big a pile of manure to contemplate shovelling.
On the other hand, if the numbers really do stack up, both individually and as a couple, and you have 'enough' then option 2 /3 is eminently sensible.  I would suggest sitting down, presumably with your husband unless you have very separate finances / lives, and working through the numbers.  Work out what life would look like if you quit now.  Work out what difference the extra money from option 1 would actually make to how you live your lives.  Then decide if it's worth it.

[MarcherLady]

Hi Liminalities, I love your username!

I'm sorry you've been dealing with stress. Well done for getting the sabatical, and for starting to plan for the end of it.

You say you own your own home, are there options to remove some equity from it, by downsizing or moving to a L(er)COL area? If you both quit work and had total flexibility you could shave a lot off your budget compared to SE life.

Like the others before me, understanding where your husband fits in all this would help us give better advice, although I can understand not wanting to share his details.

We have found that QOL for both partners is better when one isn't working, because the SAH partner can spend their time on the house, and on money saving activities like bargain hunting and cooking from scratch that two full time workers find more challenging.

With that in mind, I agree that you need to sit down with your partner and work out a shared budget, are there benefits to him of you to be not working that mean he could contribute more financially to the household, enough to fill any gaps?

I definitely agree with NGU, that having an end date for working does free you up considerably to take more risks/be less stressed at work, so you might find that your option 1 comes with less stress than you remember being under before, simply because you have the end point set.

[Liminalities]

NGU thank you for your thoughtful response.  I appreciate asking for advice without numbers doesn't make your life easy, but I can assure you that I do have a spreadsheet!

Yes, a shorter period back at work does have a lot going for it, and it occurs to me now that 12 months starting in September would be quite tax efficient.  It certainly was easier going in the few months leading up to my sabbatical. Hmm..

Expense tracking is underway, and I agree that is key to making a decision. 

PhilB thank you for responding.  I like the idea of telling myself I am going back for 6 months and then reassessing.  A little voice is telling me that would be messing work around, but then I think what I have out up with over the years and I really don't care!

Hi MarcherLady - thanks for your response and congratulations on your upcoming move!

You have picked up on my vagueness about where my husband fits into all this, so I'll say a little more.  We are the same age and we keep our finances separate so I am basing my plans on my stash alone.  He earns enough to cover his contribution (half) to household bills and his own spending on travel, clothes, hobbies etc.  However he has quite modest savings in MMM terms (about 5 x expenses) and no pension provision so my pensions will need to support us both when he retires. That is partly why relocation is something we both want to do - but that plan is not just for financial reasons (we are where we are mainly because I need(ed) to be in commuting distance of London).  Scotland is the preferred location at the moment.  We have discussed my intention to FIRE/FART and the plan would be for him to keep working at least until my second pension becomes available when we are 57, although having just started doing something he enjoys and which used to be a hobby, he is in no hurry to stop.  He is self employed and could work from any location but it is not likely his earnings will increase significantly - of course they could go down though. 

I'll sit down later today and put some numbers next to the options, especially the 12-18 month return one.

Thanks again for the input.  It is reassuring to know that the options I've been turning around in my head are not just fantasy.

[never give up]

As long as you do your work to the best of your abilities you aren't messing the company around. Don't worry about that. If you only want to stay 6 months and then leave then that's what you can do. They wouldn't worry about 'messing you around' in a redundancy type situation.

It sounds as though you have a good plan there with some flexibility and options. Best of luck with it.

[Liminalities]

Thanks NGU.  It made me smile that I just sat down having put a chicken (with legs and everything) in the oven, to see your post!

[never give up]

Mmmm whole chicken (with legs and everything) :-)

[ExitViaTheCashRamp]

If your work is that stressful, would a totally different job be possible ?

 I am a bit over 4 years from being where you are. My plan is give part time nursery work a try (voluntary at first) - something I've wanted to try for a long time. I've never worked in childcare before, but doing it for a minimum wage income for a year or so - sounds fun to me ! Knowing I could walk away at any point or if I fail to get a job wander away and give say garden nursery work a try instead is so liberating.

 What I am trying to get to is you could think about part time work in anything that sounds vaguely fun for a while and pick up some small change to offset your expenses.

[vand]

It seems the only think you like about your job is the money... in which case, why don't you just look for a different job? Even if you can't get the same salary, it is never worth maximizing your paypacket at the expense of your sanity. 

[Liminalities]

Thanks vand, you are not wrong!  It’s sad because I did used to find I fulfilling and am still interested in the field.  Why don’t I look for another job?  The main reason is that I have lots of things I want to do that are just more pleasurable when not fitted round a job – it’s that possibility of freedom that drew me to MMM.
 
ExitViaTheCashRamp, the part time fun work option does sound attractive.  Working outdoors certainly appeals to me, so that is something I plan to explore whether voluntary or paid.  Dogs, books and food are also 'fun' for me, so they are other options.
   
lhamo, glad to hear that things are working out well for you.  Yes, even in the few months I have been away from work, I find being in charge of my own time the most rewarding thing of all.  Also agree on libraries and internet, and I am lucky to live in a place with lots of free events.  Work is expecting me back in September, and if I don’t return I am just deemed to have resigned, so the urgency is more about me knowing what I am doing rather than having to tell them.  You are right that I need to focus on what non-working expenses really look like, and minimise where possible – I am looking at these numbers now and will post so I have some accountability as I go along!

[Liminalities]

Thanks again lhamo, as a fellow introvert all of that sounds like great advice!

[Linea_Norway]

Thanks vand, you are not wrong!  It’s sad because I did used to find I fulfilling and am still interested in the field.  Why don’t I look for another job?  The main reason is that I have lots of things I want to do that are just more pleasurable when not fitted round a job – it’s that possibility of freedom that drew me to MMM.

That is the reason for me to want to FIRE too. But make sure you don't do it too early. It would be very awkward to have to go back to work in 10 years time. Maybe part time work could be an option for you? Just having some more days a week where you can do the other things you really want to do.
And as you are still interested in the field, as you say. Would it be an option to do you job as a consultant as much as you like to do it, or on an incidental basis? Could your boss or a competitor hire you for a couple of weeks, a couple of times a year?

[vand]

A fairly common theme I detect is that dilemma of young professionals hanging around their high paying but stressful jobs for long enough to RE. I find it fairly depressing TBH.

At 42 it's quite likely that you have another 50 years ahead of you if you are in good health and take good care of yourself. (I know I'm I certainly planning to live past 100 :) )

You are basically expecting a 20 year working career to sustain you 70 years.. there's not a whole lot of empirical data out there to see how this works out one way or the other.

FI or RE is not supposed to be a race... leading a fulfilling and enjoyable life on the way towards these goals is as important as the goals themselves.

[sea_saw]

I'm with ExitViaTheCashRamp and vand. Reading between the lines it sounds like your job was/is really, really bad. I obviously don't know the deets. But when situations get abusive, exploitative, or otherwise harmful, in the workplace or in the family, they can cast a long shadow. Going back may not just involve a straight up exchange of the time you work there for the money they pay you, or even that + another period of decompression after it, but also a risk of (further?) knocks to your physical and mental health, a skewing of your 'normal-meter', and other effects that take a long time to untangle. The emotional coping skills you learn in dysfunctional situations not only don't apply in healthier ones, but are actively harmful to you.

My gut feeling is, life's too short. There are people in situations where they have to put up with whatever it takes to put food on the table. You're not one of them. You have money. You have options. I would proceed for the next few months as though you're not going back, and investigate other possibilities for paid work.

I also obviously don't know the numbers. If they would pay you a squillion squids to work for a year and you think it's worth it, of COURSE that call is entirely yours. Or if by the end of your sabbatical you feel totally differently, start to miss it and want to go back, that's also totally fine.

But I say at the very least you should look around and find some other things you could be doing. Start to pencil out some other possible lives that don't involve known awfulness.

[Liminalities]

sea_saw, your reading between the lines is very perceptive.  I described my situation as ‘stress’ as a bit of a catch all, but it does downplay what was going on, some of which I only now see properly from a safe distance.  Linda’s suggestion (thanks Linda_Norway!) about consultancy would be feasible, but it would mean dealing with the same people, albeit with different dynamics (it is quite a small world).

In terms of numbers, going back for a year would either give me an extra £400 a month to play with if I still took my first pension at 52, which is a lot of ‘fun’ money, or alternatively at current expenses (admittedly part extrapolated from incomplete data) it would mean I can delay drawing pension for 6 years, so it would be worth a lot more.  That said, part time work could cover a lot of my expenses, and at the current time that feels like a better option.  I should be able to find part time work locally, so cutting out the Southern Rail commute that returning to my ‘current’ job would involve is another thing to think about.  Part of me is still equating any sort of work with the issues I encountered, so I need to get over that!

vand, I agree with you on the importance of living in the moment, but I think one can get into a situation where does feel like a race to escape and FIRE looks like an oasis in the desert.  In my experience, professionals are too often put on a fast track that is not healthy for them or the organisation as people move on and up before they have a balanced skill set – and then they are pretty rubbish as managers and leaders themselves.

[sea_saw]

Part of me is still equating any sort of work with the issues I encountered, so I need to get over that!

IMO this is a sign that your former workplace is still influencing you more than you might imagine, and closing off options for you rather than opening them up.

If all workplaces were awful, it would make sense to do whatever it took to work for the minimum amount of time so you could be free. But they're not.

While I don't know your field or your area, I can say that I personally have a part time job that honestly leaves me feeling like <3_<3, it's that good - I walk out feeling satisfied and cheerful and glad to have been there. It's £33/hour (although only very limited hours are available), make of that what you will. Meanwhile my main 9-5 job is relaxed and friendly. Sometimes it's interesting work other times it's slow and frustrating (hi, MMM forum during the workday). But I have no commute and it doesn't infringe on my free time or peace of mind. I don't dread going in. There are options out there.

If you're in a position to even seriously ask the question of 'do I even need to work again, at all, or could my savings last me the rest of my life?' you're doing great. And if the answer is 'no, not quite, I do still need to bring in some money between now and taking my pension', then I personally think 'alright, let's see what work is out there that could enjoyably and meaningfully tide me over' is a better first resort than 'okay okay I'll go back to the shitty place, but only for as long as I absolutely have to/the very max I can bear to think about'.

Perhaps you will end up going back, that's fine if it's what you decide is best for you, but at least look around!

[never give up]

I kind of agree but also disagree with some of the sentiments of the last few posts.

A fairly common theme I detect is that dilemma of young professionals hanging around their high paying but stressful jobs for long enough to RE. I find it fairly depressing TBH.
.................
FI or RE is not supposed to be a race... leading a fulfilling and enjoyable life on the way towards these goals is as important as the goals themselves.

Why would you find this depressing? They are jobs that exist and someone has to do them. It's better to do a high paying but stressful job than a low paying stressful job surely. Unfortunately there are more people than there are wonderful jobs. A lot of jobs are just 'meh'. That's the way it is. It's not a race against other people or even necessarily with yourself, but it can be a race against technology, redundancy or future unknown ill health.

Absolutely someone should avoid doing a job that is so stressful it could make them ill or impact their health/wellbeing. That should go without saying. However there is a massive grey area between stress free and stressful with a wide variety of types of 'pressure' in-between. Somewhere along this scale someone will thrive, while movement further along the scale will reduce enjoyment, but may still be a long way from being stressful enough to impact ones wellbeing.

Unfortunately we don't all live in cities where there are a wide variety of job opportunities close by. I've worked hard over a twenty year career to build my career, increase my earnings, gain better holiday & pension benefits. Due to changes in the industry and combined with organisational changes, my job is now no where near as enjoyable as it was. Far from it. At times it is actually unpleasant. However it would have to get considerably worse for me to quit. Giving up now and losing all the benefits I have gained over the twenty years comes across to me as crazy. I am finally reaping benefit from the sacrifices I have made earlier on in my career and I intend to make the most of them. A little bit of sacrifice now for many career stress free future years is worth it for me.

There is no where else any where near me that would pay the equivalent of what I earn now (and although above average I am not a high earner, barely squeezing above the 40% income tax rate) so unless I take on a huge commute I am restricted to my current place of work. A less stressful job but a day of each week spent commuting will not help my wellbeing or fulfilment.

I am racing against automation. My job will not exist in the future. A leisurely cruise to FIRE is not on the cards there I'm afraid. I am racing against time to be in a position to assist my parents when they need help. They are older parents relative to my age. I am racing against any number of unknown things that can go wrong in the future, where perhaps I will not be able to work. The clocks ticking. I am racing so that even if I take a more fun job in the future but that job turns bad due to management changes, forced role changes, constant threat of redundancy etc, or any number of things outside of my control, then I will have the power to leave. There is so much out of our control in life that impacts our day to day living I am racing to FI to give me control over the one thing that can help me deal with most other things.

It is still possible to lead an enjoyable life along the way, but when I will look back in the future I will be glad I 'put up with' and sacrificed a few years of career for the bigger picture. The goal is fulfilment to me and I will not get the same benefit from a more fulfilling job that could also turn bad at any point because of factors out of my control.

From the OPs perspective I don't know the full details obviously, it's none of my business. Liminalities will know how far along the stressful scale the current job is. Prior to the sabbatical you said work was easier because you knew the break was coming. That to me suggests another year is possible. If it is then I would tend to think the future Liminalities would thank current Liminalities for just giving it a go for that length of time before looking for another job. One tough year for many future FI years. Providing it won't affect your health that seems worth it to me. With a 75% savings rate and low expenses and a future relocation plan and a husband that is in no hurry to stop working, you are in a great position. I understand with the work you have put into your career that leaving can feel like a lost opportunity to provide more security in retirement. It's this health versus opportunity conundrum that you must ultimately solve here to move forward with your plan.

[sea_saw]

NGU I think we basically agree :) It all really depends on the particulars.

I was kind of assuming previous job had reached hair falling out in the shower, crying in the loos, straight up unbearable territory for Liminalities to have negotiated a year off. I may have been assuming the worst, but if I wasn't, I would do a LOT to avoid that kind of situation.

I do speak as someone who easily has a decade and a half of work left before they can be even close to a minimum budget FIRE, so I'm imagining several different jobs in my future, and it's not a blow to add one more. I'm sure one's mindset changes when it gets closer to a sprint than a marathon. I can imagine you start wanting to get it DONE asap.

But I kind of think, if you ignore the FIRE movement for a moment and think of a 42 year old who hates their job and feels it's sapping their very life, and:
1) already has enough pension funds to meet their needs when they're old enough to access it
2) already has enough savings to last them maybe half of the 15 years between now and then
3) owns outright a house they're willing to downsize from to free up more money

It wouldn't occur to most people to advise 'keep going with the awful job for another 2 years so you can guarantee never having to work again'. They'd think, 'find some easy and satisfying work to cover your expenses, you can afford to be picky'.

Of course if Liminalities does the calculations and thinks awfulJob is worth it for the dollas that's fine - great even, what a boost. I'm sure in practice it's hard to give up the highly paid devil you know, I've never been in that position and I can see the efficiency-maximiser part of my brain would cry into its tea if I didn't try to squeeze the last drop of utility out of such a career that I could. But I also think that by the time you hit No More I Can't Take It, you've already crossed the line into Too Far. I don't think it should be the default option when it doesn't have to be.

[vand]

I kind of agree but also disagree with some of the sentiments of the last few posts.

A fairly common theme I detect is that dilemma of young professionals hanging around their high paying but stressful jobs for long enough to RE. I find it fairly depressing TBH.
.................
FI or RE is not supposed to be a race... leading a fulfilling and enjoyable life on the way towards these goals is as important as the goals themselves.

Why would you find this depressing? They are jobs that exist and someone has to do them. It's better to do a high paying but stressful job than a low paying stressful job surely. Unfortunately there are more people than there are wonderful jobs. A lot of jobs are just 'meh'. That's the way it is. It's not a race against other people or even necessarily with yourself, but it can be a race against technology, redundancy or future unknown ill health.

Absolutely someone should avoid doing a job that is so stressful it could make them ill or impact their health/wellbeing. That should go without saying. However there is a massive grey area between stress free and stressful with a wide variety of types of 'pressure' in-between. Somewhere along this scale someone will thrive, while movement further along the scale will reduce enjoyment, but may still be a long way from being stressful enough to impact ones wellbeing.

Unfortunately we don't all live in cities where there are a wide variety of job opportunities close by. I've worked hard over a twenty year career to build my career, increase my earnings, gain better holiday & pension benefits. Due to changes in the industry and combined with organisational changes, my job is now no where near as enjoyable as it was. Far from it. At times it is actually unpleasant. However it would have to get considerably worse for me to quit. Giving up now and losing all the benefits I have gained over the twenty years comes across to me as crazy. I am finally reaping benefit from the sacrifices I have made earlier on in my career and I intend to make the most of them. A little bit of sacrifice now for many career stress free future years is worth it for me.

There is no where else any where near me that would pay the equivalent of what I earn now (and although above average I am not a high earner, barely squeezing above the 40% income tax rate) so unless I take on a huge commute I am restricted to my current place of work. A less stressful job but a day of each week spent commuting will not help my wellbeing or fulfilment.

I am racing against automation. My job will not exist in the future. A leisurely cruise to FIRE is not on the cards there I'm afraid. I am racing against time to be in a position to assist my parents when they need help. They are older parents relative to my age. I am racing against any number of unknown things that can go wrong in the future, where perhaps I will not be able to work. The clocks ticking. I am racing so that even if I take a more fun job in the future but that job turns bad due to management changes, forced role changes, constant threat of redundancy etc, or any number of things outside of my control, then I will have the power to leave. There is so much out of our control in life that impacts our day to day living I am racing to FI to give me control over the one thing that can help me deal with most other things.

It is still possible to lead an enjoyable life along the way, but when I will look back in the future I will be glad I 'put up with' and sacrificed a few years of career for the bigger picture. The goal is fulfilment to me and I will not get the same benefit from a more fulfilling job that could also turn bad at any point because of factors out of my control.

From the OPs perspective I don't know the full details obviously, it's none of my business. Liminalities will know how far along the stressful scale the current job is. Prior to the sabbatical you said work was easier because you knew the break was coming. That to me suggests another year is possible. If it is then I would tend to think the future Liminalities would thank current Liminalities for just giving it a go for that length of time before looking for another job. One tough year for many future FI years. Providing it won't affect your health that seems worth it to me. With a 75% savings rate and low expenses and a future relocation plan and a husband that is in no hurry to stop working, you are in a great position. I understand with the work you have put into your career that leaving can feel like a lost opportunity to provide more security in retirement. It's this health versus opportunity conundrum that you must ultimately solve here to move forward with your plan.

I do find it rather depressing and self defeating. FI and RE is a path to be followed rather than an end goal in my view. Your journey in arriving there should be as fulfilling as it can be. If I may, I would like to quote some wisdom from Jim Rohn on this subject:


"I'm never sure what to think when I hear people say 'I want to make a million dollars by the time I'm forty' or 'I want to retire by the age of forty five'.

This combination of goals and deadlines strikes me as short-sighted and maybe even a bit naive. It takes a worthwhile goal and subjects it to an imposed timetable. While you might have an idea of what a million dollars would mean to you, or you might have really exciting plans for your life after you hang up the tie and business suit, I don't see how a person can reasonably expect to know who or what he will be or think or feel at some arbitrary moment in the future.

This kind of thinking misses the whole point of success. The real payoff in financial success and worldly success isn't the result of an amount of money divided by the age you are when you get it, or some other actuarial formula; the real payoff is found in the qualities of character you develop along the way. "


"There's a story about a young man who had a very old and rich uncle.

When the uncle died the young man was called to the office of his attorney and told he'd been left a huge fortune. To collect it however he had to run a certain errand which was described on a slip of paper. It seemed simple enough but when the young man set out to accomplish it, this first task turned into another, and then another... as he pursued his uncle's final request the young man was led into foreign lands and exotic adventures and untold dangers.

More years passed and the young man nearly lost track of how and even why he was on this long journey. And he could hardly imagine what its end might be.

At last, the odyssey led him back into the very same lawyer's office where it had begun.  "I'm here to collect my inheritence." said the heir, no longer a young man but a much wiser one.

The lawyer smiled; "As your uncle intended you've already collected it; in the place you've been and the things you've learnt.... and again, as intended, it will last you for a lifetime."

[UK Dancer]

Of course if Liminalities does the calculations and thinks awfulJob is worth it for the dollas that's fine - great even, what a boost. I'm sure in practice it's hard to give up the highly paid devil you know, I've never been in that position and I can see the efficiency-maximiser part of my brain would cry into its tea if I didn't try to squeeze the last drop of utility out of such a career that I could. But I also think that by the time you hit No More I Can't Take It, you've already crossed the line into Too Far. I don't think it should be the default option when it doesn't have to be.

I think this last calculation is the one where quite a few of us on this forum are going to struggle/have struggled - by the time we're at the FI point we calculated years beforehand, we can see that now we're at this later point in our career, even one more month puts a noticeable bump into our pot, so it seems such a waste to retire, hence the massive problem with OMY...

[Liminalities]

Thanks to everyone for the further comments and the interesting discussion.  Even with insider knowledge I am not sure where I stand on the health/money trade off of returning to current job!

So my current thinking is to defer any decision for 3 months, use the time to get a better grip of expenses and fill the time with things I like doing which are mostly naturally low cost (e.g walking, learning to make clothes and using my fabric stash, expand cooking skills), living the sort of life I might post FIRE or alongside less energy-sapping work.  I'll also look into what alternative paid employment I might like to do and go to more of the many free/cheap events that happen locally.  I have put a date of 1 May in the calender (May Day feels like an auspicious date) to reassess things and that should help me focus on enjoying life day to day rather than worrying about what I'll do in September.  I think that will also help me make a better decision when the time comes.


Your responses have been really helpful - thanks again.

[UK Dancer]

Excellent plan!  I hope you find that you are so busy enjoying your simple, low-cost life that you forget to go back to work.....

Hear hear!

[sea_saw]

I think this is a beautiful plan. Enjoy yourself!

[never give up]

That’s great Liminalities. Good luck with your plan. I hope you’ll keep us updated.

[RetirementInvestingToday]

If your work is that stressful, would a totally different job be possible ?
...

I've been FIRE'd now since only November 2018 and I'm finding decompression brutal.  I'm trying to figure out if it's institutionalisation or loss of what (parts) of work gave me.  What you suggest is something I am currently seriously considering.

Anecdotal I know but thought it might be useful given I'm on the other side of FIRE.

[RetirementInvestingToday]

A fairly common theme I detect is that dilemma of young professionals hanging around their high paying but stressful jobs for long enough to RE. I find it fairly depressing TBH.
...

Looking backwards I am now coming to the conclusion that this is something I did.  I achieved FI in less than 9 years at age 46.  Interestingly though looking back I don't regret it for a second because we now have so many wonderful choices we can make from here.  I'm currently in full decompression and we're living in the Mediterranean for now.  We can keep doing that or try something new in the months/years ahead.  It's not many people who get that sort of lifestyle flexibility...

[RetirementInvestingToday]

I kind of agree but also disagree with some of the sentiments of the last few posts.

A fairly common theme I detect is that dilemma of young professionals hanging around their high paying but stressful jobs for long enough to RE. I find it fairly depressing TBH.
.................
FI or RE is not supposed to be a race... leading a fulfilling and enjoyable life on the way towards these goals is as important as the goals themselves.

Why would you find this depressing? They are jobs that exist and someone has to do them. It's better to do a high paying but stressful job than a low paying stressful job surely. Unfortunately there are more people than there are wonderful jobs. A lot of jobs are just 'meh'. That's the way it is. It's not a race against other people or even necessarily with yourself, but it can be a race against technology, redundancy or future unknown ill health.

Absolutely someone should avoid doing a job that is so stressful it could make them ill or impact their health/wellbeing. That should go without saying. However there is a massive grey area between stress free and stressful with a wide variety of types of 'pressure' in-between. Somewhere along this scale someone will thrive, while movement further along the scale will reduce enjoyment, but may still be a long way from being stressful enough to impact ones wellbeing.

Unfortunately we don't all live in cities where there are a wide variety of job opportunities close by. I've worked hard over a twenty year career to build my career, increase my earnings, gain better holiday & pension benefits. Due to changes in the industry and combined with organisational changes, my job is now no where near as enjoyable as it was. Far from it. At times it is actually unpleasant. However it would have to get considerably worse for me to quit. Giving up now and losing all the benefits I have gained over the twenty years comes across to me as crazy. I am finally reaping benefit from the sacrifices I have made earlier on in my career and I intend to make the most of them. A little bit of sacrifice now for many career stress free future years is worth it for me.

There is no where else any where near me that would pay the equivalent of what I earn now (and although above average I am not a high earner, barely squeezing above the 40% income tax rate) so unless I take on a huge commute I am restricted to my current place of work. A less stressful job but a day of each week spent commuting will not help my wellbeing or fulfilment.

I am racing against automation. My job will not exist in the future. A leisurely cruise to FIRE is not on the cards there I'm afraid. I am racing against time to be in a position to assist my parents when they need help. They are older parents relative to my age. I am racing against any number of unknown things that can go wrong in the future, where perhaps I will not be able to work. The clocks ticking. I am racing so that even if I take a more fun job in the future but that job turns bad due to management changes, forced role changes, constant threat of redundancy etc, or any number of things outside of my control, then I will have the power to leave. There is so much out of our control in life that impacts our day to day living I am racing to FI to give me control over the one thing that can help me deal with most other things.

It is still possible to lead an enjoyable life along the way, but when I will look back in the future I will be glad I 'put up with' and sacrificed a few years of career for the bigger picture. The goal is fulfilment to me and I will not get the same benefit from a more fulfilling job that could also turn bad at any point because of factors out of my control.

From the OPs perspective I don't know the full details obviously, it's none of my business. Liminalities will know how far along the stressful scale the current job is. Prior to the sabbatical you said work was easier because you knew the break was coming. That to me suggests another year is possible. If it is then I would tend to think the future Liminalities would thank current Liminalities for just giving it a go for that length of time before looking for another job. One tough year for many future FI years. Providing it won't affect your health that seems worth it to me. With a 75% savings rate and low expenses and a future relocation plan and a husband that is in no hurry to stop working, you are in a great position. I understand with the work you have put into your career that leaving can feel like a lost opportunity to provide more security in retirement. It's this health versus opportunity conundrum that you must ultimately solve here to move forward with your plan.

Really nice post never give up.  One that mirrors a lot of my thinking.

Interestingly, when I started started on my FIRE journey in 2007 the predominant reason was that I could see my job (career?) being out sourced to a 'low cost country'.  So similar to your automation concern.  Having worked through the problem I gave myself two options - retrain or push for FIRE.  I went for FIRE.  Even in 2007 I was up close and personal to that actually happening to some similarly qualified people to myself.  I managed to stay ahead of it partly because my FIRE approach to increasing earnings kept me at the top of my game.  As it happens I FIRE'd before I was fired.

Being able to support parents is something that's important to me as well.  They still have quite active retirements but I do notice they are starting to slow down in the past couple of years.

[never give up]

Thanks RIT. Congrats on your retirement and good luck with the decompression. Yep helping my parents is a huge motivation but one that requires time. To not have to work full time will be wonderful in so many ways. I find work hard but rarely have to work long hours. A tough job but one where I often work no more than 40 hours gives some balance in the present while keeping me on track FIRE wise.

[Playing with Fire UK]

Have you run the numbers on remortgaging your home? It would allow you to spend money before your DB pension is payable or allow you to take your DB pension at the normal age rather than early. It's also scary and difficult without a job and not for everyone.

As a data point for May: I'm finding it tougher than I thought returning to work after my mini-sabbatical. My circumstances are different to yours (shorter break, further from FIRE, changing jobs).

[Liminalities]

Hello again,

A little later than planned, it’s time for an update on how my 3 months of assessing what to do with my life have gone.  As will be obvious from the numbers below, my focus has been more on the ‘life’ than the ‘money’ side of this, so I have not cut back expenses as far as possible as I had intended to do.  Instead I have focused on my health and pursuing/discovering interests and spending time with friends and family.  This has made me realise (even more) how my life had become quite unbalanced as work swallowed up all my energy. 

In short, even without deliberately cutting back I have (just) enough money for a lean FIRE.  This is not necessarily a sensible or cautious way forward, but as work becomes more distant I am quite excited by other options, some of which could make some money.  I also think that returning would be detrimental for me in many ways that outweigh the boost to my stash it would provide.

As this is MMM, I suppose some numbers would be helpful.  Well, since January, my average spend per month is £1184 (13,776/year).  This breaks down as follows:

Household bills:            £156 (my half share)
Household maintenance:       £34 (my half share)
Groceries, household, toiletries:   £348 (for two people.  My partner pays the service charge on our flat which is about the same)
Health (dental, prescriptions etc.):£76
Transport (train/bus fares):      £62
Holidays:            £260 (!!)
Clothes and shoes:         £64 (skewed by £160 on walking gear in January)
Books and maps:         £26
Eating out/take-aways:         £52
Exercise (e.g. swimming):      £62
Presents:            £24
Charity:               £20

Clearly there is a lot of discretionary spending in this, and I have consciously done whatever I felt like doing, rather than trying to economise (but equally I have tried to spend mindfully).  That said, I think it would be sensible to test what a lean few months looks like, wouldn’t it?  June has a few significant family birthdays and a week away; however, I don’t expect to exceed my average so far.  In July and August plan is to challenge myself to spend as little as possible – I’ll aim for £800 and see how that goes.  If I don’t go on holiday those months, this should not be too difficult!  There is also a lot of scope to cut food bills…
If I kept up my average level of spending my savings/investments at their current value would keep me going until I am 51 – and I can withdraw one of my pensions from age 50.  And based on what I can work out without getting a quote, with actuarial reduction that pension would be in the region of £14k – more or less what I am spending now, without trying to be frugal…  Another pension is accessible from 57 which would add a further £10k.
This is quite tight, and does not allow for unexpected expenses, but nor does it allow for growth in current investments/savings interest.  It also assumes we do not relocate to a cheaper area, which is something I think we will almost certainly do. 
In some ways I wonder if it is healthier to not have a cushion, in that it will encourage me to find ways of making some money (e.g. part time work, something entrepreneurial).  I am certainly feeling far more positive about options like those than I was a few months ago. 
So, I am 99% certain I will not return to my previous career/workplace, but I no longer feel concerned by the possibility of working elsewhere, or in a different field if that is what I decide to do.  As it has taken me so long to really recover from the work situation I was in, I am inclined to spend another year or so focusing on my interests, getting fitter, doing something in the local community and possibly some (fun) study.  It is fantastic that I can afford to do this. 
Perhaps it is a good time to start a journal to track my progress?

[Liminalities]

Oops - posted before I sorted out the formatting - sorry about the lack of paragraphs!

[never give up]

That’s a great update Liminalities. So much there sounds so promising and you have lots of options. I completely agree with not going back to your old job if it is detrimental to your wellbeing. Well done on tracking your expenditure so closely. This information is so valuable to making sound decisions.

I would love to follow a journal of yours!

[never give up]

Sorry I was having a bit more of a think about this. I’ve been deliberating a lot recently about hitting my ideal key number milestones, along a FIRE safety line, and although I’ve been preparing to dig deep and go for my optimum number, lean FIRE does quite appeal too. I’m really glad you didn’t cut back loads, and instead lived a good version of your life these last few months. It makes the data more valuable.

I have my expenses split into five main buckets. If for example you remove holidays and eating out from your expenses you have detailed, your budget is suddenly quite comfortable and you do have wriggle room for anything unexpected. If you then view the part time job/something entrepreneurial as providing you with the fun money bucket I.e. your holidays etc, then that is quite a positive way of looking at it. I appreciate money is fungible and this is just psychological, but I quite like the concept of doing some very low stress work, that is going towards fun stuff rather than council tax or whatever. All the core bills are covered by the stash.

This would also give an incentive to make the low stress limited hours work as fun and productive as possible. I think the relocation to a cheaper area then virtually guarantees you wouldn’t need to keep up this paid work for any longer than you wanted to.

Now your main worry is working out a title for your journal :-)

[Liminalities]

Thanks, never give up.  Yes, I can see the benefits of thinking about outgoings in separate buckets as you suggest.  Part of me still thinks it is too good to be true that I can cover my expenses without working!

I am also grateful for the endorsement of my approach in recent months, as I was a bit worried to report back on my less than Mustachian spending.  It has been useful for me to look back and think about whether my spending is in line with the things that matter to me.  Overall, I am satisfied it is, but I am looking forward to tweaking this, and optimising. 

I'll save further thoughts on that for my forthcoming journal.  So far I have half a title worked out...

[never give up]

Yay! I’ll look forward to that.

[MonkeyJenga]

In short, even without deliberately cutting back I have (just) enough money for a lean FIRE.  This is not necessarily a sensible or cautious way forward, but as work becomes more distant I am quite excited by other options, some of which could make some money.  I also think that returning would be detrimental for me in many ways that outweigh the boost to my stash it would provide.

Yay! I'm reading this thread for this first time, not realizing it was a few months old. I was all set to encourage you to GTF away from your old job, but then I got to skip ahead and see you doing it.

Like, if you really want another $300-400 buffer, it's easy to get that another way. There are some jobs in my past that I would return to if I wanted extra cash, but the REALLY REALLY STRESSFUL jobs? Nnnnnnope. Nope nope. I'll end up spending all that money on PT and therapy anyway.

[Liminalities]

Thanks MonkeyJenga - yes, now I have made the decision it seems crazy that I was even contemplating going back!

[sea_saw]

Awww I'm so happy to hear this 'resolution', which is actually more of a start than an end!

I also think it was fine to continue life as 'normal' and not make cost cutting your first priority the second you were on a break from work. You had other things to do, you could afford it, and you've got the time to sort out a lean budget and other sources of income.

I have a feeling you're going to be really pleased with your decision when you look back on it in 1, 2, 5 years' time :)

[Liminalities]

Cheers, sea_saw, it does feel like an exciting start, to what I am not sure but I suppose that is the point!

[vand]

Echoing, what others have said, that's a very encouraging update.

Stepping away from the Rat Race usually forces us to re-evaluate a lot of things and our values usually end up changing also.

As demonstrated, you are already basically financially free, and I think a lot of us on this forum who are still consider themselves somewhere on the journey would in reality be just fine if we voluntarily hung up our working hats tomorrow as we would eventually adjust to our new normal.

I am the same age as you, and I can tell you that 42 is still very young! You have most of your life ahead of you to find something else that will bring your both money if you need want it, but more importantly a sense of purpose. The irony is that you will probably not be interested for a while longer, but then one day you will suddenly just get the strong urge to do something again.

[former player]

Joining in with the rest to say I'm glad you will not be going back to your toxic workplace, and that the possibilities that opens up for the rest of your life are wonderful.  Well done.

[Liminalities]

Thank you vand and former player for the encouragement.  I'll start a journal soon to keep track of how this goes...