Author Topic: Strength & Fitness 2018  (Read 77824 times)

thisisjeopardy

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Re: Strength & Fitness 2018
« Reply #450 on: August 20, 2018, 09:42:26 AM »
You do 5 reps with 90 seconds rest in between. It was like 2, 2, 1, 1, 2 then rest for 2 days then it was 2, 2, 2, 1, 2 etc

So far Ive met each goal but the program says feel free to rest longer or repeat trainings until youre able to ramp it up.

There are many apps and sites to help you. Figure in a year I'll be able to do 100 with ease

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La Bibliotecaria Feroz

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Re: Strength & Fitness 2018
« Reply #451 on: August 20, 2018, 02:47:54 PM »
Lately I'm just getting nowhere, strength-wise. I've missed workouts for vacation and kid things (my public gym isn't always open when I want to go) and I'm losing ground weirdly fast.

Squats are a particular problem but I asked another heavy-lifting lady at the gym today to watch my squats and she gave me some pointers. I've dropped the weight all the way from 157 to 130 but I got 3 good sets of 5, so hopefully I can work back up.

I didn't do particularly good sets of chin ups today but people sometimes are surprised to see a thirtysomething lady with tiny shoulders doing them at all. An older gentlemen gave me a high five!

jeninco

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Re: Strength & Fitness 2018
« Reply #452 on: August 20, 2018, 03:43:52 PM »

I didn't do particularly good sets of chin ups today but people sometimes are surprised to see a thirtysomething lady with tiny shoulders doing them at all. An older gentlemen gave me a high five!

Keep doing them. The entertainment value increases as you get older!

FireHiker

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Re: Strength & Fitness 2018
« Reply #453 on: August 20, 2018, 04:17:03 PM »
Well, I haven't been doing a lot myself this past week; we were up in Big Bear to crew for my brother's race 100 mile race. He had a podium finish! It was awesome. I also got another permit for Mt. Whitney, so I'll be giving it another attempt on September 1st. Time to get back on track! My back has been giving me trouble the past month or so, but it is slowly improving. After being out with the ultra community all weekend I'm motivated to get out on the trails myself.

Serendip

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Re: Strength & Fitness 2018
« Reply #454 on: August 20, 2018, 04:59:28 PM »
Well, I haven't been doing a lot myself this past week; we were up in Big Bear to crew for my brother's race 100 mile race. He had a podium finish! It was awesome. I also got another permit for Mt. Whitney, so I'll be giving it another attempt on September 1st. Time to get back on track! My back has been giving me trouble the past month or so, but it is slowly improving. After being out with the ultra community all weekend I'm motivated to get out on the trails myself.

That's great about Mt.Whitney and hope your back feels better soon @FireHiker !


Serendip

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Re: Strength & Fitness 2018
« Reply #455 on: August 20, 2018, 05:02:30 PM »
I've been going to the gym now for the past 2 weeks..start with 20 min cardio, then mostly doing strength work for legs/hips/back (trying to rehab that hip tendonitis from last winter/spring so that I am good to go for ski season)

It's interesting being back in a gym space, and I quite enjoy it.
Also they have an infrared sauna :)

longtry

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Re: Strength & Fitness 2018
« Reply #456 on: August 21, 2018, 05:59:07 AM »
For those whose goals include handstands, where are you practicing?

I'm also wondering about your push-up secret. Some here have goals of 100+. I can't seem to get past 80, usually in the 70+ when doing 'quick' push-ups. After that I'm kind of run out of steam. I think that if after those quick reps I do the reaallly slow ones then I may be able to crawl up to 100, but I've never tried it.

Zola.

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Re: Strength & Fitness 2018
« Reply #457 on: August 21, 2018, 09:21:57 AM »
Why is there this craze to do handstands?

FireHiker

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Re: Strength & Fitness 2018
« Reply #458 on: August 21, 2018, 09:31:07 AM »
Thanks! @Serendip ! I don't know what is going on with my back but it has flared up periodically ever since I was in college, 20 years ago now. I'll go years without it bothering me, even if I'm really active, and then I'll sneeze, bend over, or sleep funny, and it is out of sorts for awhile.

oneday

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Re: Strength & Fitness 2018
« Reply #459 on: August 21, 2018, 10:00:34 AM »
Started 100 pushups training program. Couldn't do 5 good ones. Now I can do 25.

Going to sign up for tai chi classes this week.

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I did that program.  I was unable to do one knee pushup at the beginning, so I did wall pushups.  Now I can do 10 incline pushups, which are harder than wall but easier than knee.  One day I will do a real pushup.  For now, I am only doing maintenance (10 reps 2x a week), since my joints were kind of hurting at the end.

thisisjeopardy

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Re: Strength & Fitness 2018
« Reply #460 on: August 29, 2018, 08:48:21 AM »
I also started taking Tai Chi classes. $100/mo but it's unlimited (Yoga classes too) I'm in there 5-6 times/week, never felt better and the health benefits are worth it. Also spending a bit of time at home or in the park practicing it. Money well spent if you're into it.

Nick_Miller

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Re: Strength & Fitness 2018
« Reply #461 on: August 29, 2018, 09:10:36 AM »
Okay, beginning stats as of 8/8/18

Weight: 217
Body Fat: 27%

I sat down with a trainer, and went over nutrition, macros, meal planning, and exercise program. First goal is to get down to 207. So he put me at 1950 calories per day clean eating, as that's the maintenance caloric intake for a 207-lb. guy my age with low activity.

GOAL 1:
What: Get to 207 lbs by Sept 5th (4 weeks)
How: 12-16 workouts and clean eating for next 4 weeks, hitting all macros

21 days later, down to 211. Probably gained a lb of muscle at least; feel much stronger. Haven't missed a workout yet and eating tons of protein (over 150 grams per day). Probably won't lose 4 more pounds in a week, but I believe I'm replacing fat with some muscle, so the scale won't move as much, but the results will show more.  Will try to get another body fat reading when I check in with the gym owner late next week. Everyone (in the US), enjoy an active labor day weekend!

marty998

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Re: Strength & Fitness 2018
« Reply #462 on: September 01, 2018, 09:09:14 PM »
2 little wins for me -

- set a new personal milage record in August (113 km)
- ran my 5th half marathon and first under 2 hours (1:57:21!)

Have another half marathon in 2 weeks time, and am planning to take on a full marathon next year.

On we go!

mm1970

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Re: Strength & Fitness 2018
« Reply #463 on: September 02, 2018, 05:03:54 PM »
2 little wins for me -

- set a new personal milage record in August (113 km)
- ran my 5th half marathon and first under 2 hours (1:57:21!)

Have another half marathon in 2 weeks time, and am planning to take on a full marathon next year.

On we go!
Yay, that's awesome!  So speedy.

I ran my crazy up hill half marathon again today.  Weather was MUCH cooler than last year (it was 95F at the top last year).  I missed my goal time by 3 minutes, but improved my time from last year by 39 minutes, so win!

Gonna register for another half in October...that's an overall slightly DOWNhill (700ft), not a 4000 ft gain, ha!

FireHiker

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Re: Strength & Fitness 2018
« Reply #464 on: September 04, 2018, 09:33:44 AM »
Well, I did it, I hiked Mt. Whitney. It was really humbling; it definitely pushed me to the edge of my capabilities (and beyond?). It's 22 miles total and I rolled my ankle on the way back down with 3 miles to go to the trailhead. It's been three days and it's still pretty sore. Hiking an extra three miles on it didn't do me any favors. But, I did it!! Once I can walk again, and then run, I will get back to training because I have a 15k trail race at the end of October. I just turned 40 last week and I'm determined to make my 40's my fittest years yet! Thanks for all the support along the way so far. :)

zeli2033

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Re: Strength & Fitness 2018
« Reply #465 on: September 04, 2018, 10:11:23 AM »
Wow, that is quite a feat FireHiker!! Nice work!!!!

diapasoun

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Re: Strength & Fitness 2018
« Reply #466 on: September 04, 2018, 10:27:35 AM »
Yessss FireHiker! Go you!!!

mm1970

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Re: Strength & Fitness 2018
« Reply #467 on: September 04, 2018, 01:54:05 PM »
Well, I did it, I hiked Mt. Whitney. It was really humbling; it definitely pushed me to the edge of my capabilities (and beyond?). It's 22 miles total and I rolled my ankle on the way back down with 3 miles to go to the trailhead. It's been three days and it's still pretty sore. Hiking an extra three miles on it didn't do me any favors. But, I did it!! Once I can walk again, and then run, I will get back to training because I have a 15k trail race at the end of October. I just turned 40 last week and I'm determined to make my 40's my fittest years yet! Thanks for all the support along the way so far. :)

Yaaay!!  Way to go!

FireHiker

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Re: Strength & Fitness 2018
« Reply #468 on: September 04, 2018, 05:57:09 PM »
Thanks everyone; it was awesome. :) And awful after I rolled my ankle and had to still hike 3 miles on it! I can't wait for it to heal so I can get right back to it!

Serendip

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Re: Strength & Fitness 2018
« Reply #469 on: September 04, 2018, 11:05:21 PM »
Congrats @FireHiker , so fantastic (and hope you heal up quickly!)

Mongoose

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Re: Strength & Fitness 2018
« Reply #470 on: September 05, 2018, 07:46:58 AM »
My half marathon plans aren't going so well. Dropped a piece of furniture on my big toe a couple of weeks ago. It's ok, if I don't run on it. My mileage is cut way back. I'm going to give it one more go to get back into the groove this year and then call it a dud if my foot doesn't hold up. May try to switch to biking for awhile instead.

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Re: Strength & Fitness 2018
« Reply #471 on: September 05, 2018, 07:50:18 AM »
Why is there this craze to do handstands?

Because it is hard.

Start by doing 'pushups' with your feet on a table or stairs or something high, then move on with them against a door. I need something in between a door and table.

Drole

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Re: Strength & Fitness 2018
« Reply #472 on: September 05, 2018, 04:58:17 PM »
I'm hoping to get back on track with the kids going back to school.

I am curious....how many of you measure/weigh your food for tracking purposes?

How many use a garmin /ifit to track activity?

If yes to either.....how has tracking helped you and what device do use or recommend?  The  garmin vivoactive 3 music caught my eye but would be an expensive toy for me.  I mean i ran for years without even waering a watch.

I know this is a little repetitve of a question but i havent been making progress and think that my "eyeball measurements" are far too generous and that i am probably not pushing myself enough in workouts. Some things i can't really measure but i could focus on heart rate time/ training
« Last Edit: September 06, 2018, 12:27:10 AM by Drole »

diapasoun

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Re: Strength & Fitness 2018
« Reply #473 on: September 05, 2018, 05:29:37 PM »
I'm hoping to get back on track with the kids going back to school.

I am curious....how many of you measure/weigh your food for tracking purposes?

How many use a garmin /ifit to track activity?

If yes to either.....how has tracking helped you and what device do use or recommend?  The  garmin vivoactive 3 music caught my eye but would be an expensive toy for me.  I mean i ran for years without even waering a watch.

I know this is a little repetitve of a question but i havent been making progress and think that my "eyeball measurements" are far too generous and that i am probably not pushing myself enough in workouts. Some things i can really meausre but i could foxus ob heart rate time/ training

I'm hoping to get back on track too, Drole! And may end up with some changing goals again...

For food: If I'm trying to lose weight or recalibrate my eating, yes, I do measure food when possible. I have a kitchen scale that I bought ages ago for baking, and I'll use it to measure out other foods as well. Sometimes I use volume instead (oats, soups, stuff like that). I find it helpful to track one or two weeks out of every month, at least, just as way to sort of keep in touch with what I'm doing. My eyeball measurements can get real off, too!

I have a lower-end Fitbit, but it doesn't have heart rate; I use it to track general activity levels/weight/food. However, I don't exactly workout hardcore.

mm1970

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Re: Strength & Fitness 2018
« Reply #474 on: September 06, 2018, 02:11:06 PM »
I have a garmin running watch, and I love it.  My old one lasted 9 years before it died. I  find it to be motivating.

I no longer track my food.  4 years ago I lost the baby weight and found a "system" that works for me.  But during active weight loss I did track it.

marty998

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Re: Strength & Fitness 2018
« Reply #475 on: September 06, 2018, 03:28:51 PM »
2 little wins for me -

- set a new personal milage record in August (113 km)
- ran my 5th half marathon and first under 2 hours (1:57:21!)

Have another half marathon in 2 weeks time, and am planning to take on a full marathon next year.

On we go!
Yay, that's awesome!  So speedy.

I ran my crazy up hill half marathon again today.  Weather was MUCH cooler than last year (it was 95F at the top last year).  I missed my goal time by 3 minutes, but improved my time from last year by 39 minutes, so win!

Gonna register for another half in October...that's an overall slightly DOWNhill (700ft), not a 4000 ft gain, ha!

39 minutes ahead is outstanding! Especially on an uphill slog!

FireHiker

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Re: Strength & Fitness 2018
« Reply #476 on: September 06, 2018, 04:46:08 PM »
@Drole  at the risk of being facepunched, I actually have an apple watch after having too many issues with a fitbit I'd had for awhile. I use it with Strava to track all of my workouts. I LOVE it, and I was one of the biggest mockers of them when they came out...my husband uses a Garmin but I didn't like how huge and clunky it was, although my sister-in-law's Garmin isn't bad. I have the series 3 which is waterproof, but I did not get the cellular option. I wish the battery life was better, but it charges very quickly. On my Mt. Whitney hike (which lasted 19 freaking hours) I stopped to charge it 3 times, 10 minutes on the way up, 10 minutes on the way down, and about 40 minutes at the top. I still had 18% battery left. When my brother runs his ultras he has to charge his Garmin too.

@mm1970 congrats on your crazy up hill half. That's impressive; I hate running uphill so much. I MAY decide to do my first full next year (or the year after) and I'm looking at the "Mountains 2 Beach" up your way since my brother lives in Ventura.

mm1970

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Re: Strength & Fitness 2018
« Reply #477 on: September 07, 2018, 09:52:39 AM »
@Drole  at the risk of being facepunched, I actually have an apple watch after having too many issues with a fitbit I'd had for awhile. I use it with Strava to track all of my workouts. I LOVE it, and I was one of the biggest mockers of them when they came out...my husband uses a Garmin but I didn't like how huge and clunky it was, although my sister-in-law's Garmin isn't bad. I have the series 3 which is waterproof, but I did not get the cellular option. I wish the battery life was better, but it charges very quickly. On my Mt. Whitney hike (which lasted 19 freaking hours) I stopped to charge it 3 times, 10 minutes on the way up, 10 minutes on the way down, and about 40 minutes at the top. I still had 18% battery left. When my brother runs his ultras he has to charge his Garmin too.

@mm1970 congrats on your crazy up hill half. That's impressive; I hate running uphill so much. I MAY decide to do my first full next year (or the year after) and I'm looking at the "Mountains 2 Beach" up your way since my brother lives in Ventura.

Quote
39 minutes ahead is outstanding! Especially on an uphill slog!

Thanks!  About half of that 39 minutes was just being faster.  I've been training consistently with the same running coach for a year now, and I'm approximately 1.5 minutes per mile faster overall - flats and up hill.  (Yesterday she said, "ok, run for 45 minutes, go as far as you can without dying."  Average pace was 10:03 - that is so fast for me.  I probably haven't run that fast in 8 years, and back then that pace caused much injury.

The other half of that 39 minutes was the temperature during the race was 75F and not 95F.  So hot last year I had to walk the last 8-9 miles.

I hear that the "Mountains 2 Beach" is amazing - in fact my next half is the Ventura half (and there is also a full on the same day), which I'm told is on the same course as that one.  I'm looking forward to the course, I think it will be beautiful.

oneday

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Re: Strength & Fitness 2018
« Reply #478 on: September 11, 2018, 10:31:48 PM »
Well I have been AWOL; disheartened by my foot injury which takes away my running ability.

However, I'm coming out of that phase and ready to do something different.  To that end, I am recommitting to my 4-bodyweight exercise routine and cycling.  Today I did the exercises and also rode my bike to/from the train station at both ends (home end & work end), a total of 2.8 miles (4.5 km).

My goal for this week is to ride to/from the station on the home end Thurs & Fri, a for-fun ride on Sunday and bodyweight exercises on Sat.

Will report back Sunday and make a new goal!

Mongoose

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Re: Strength & Fitness 2018
« Reply #479 on: September 12, 2018, 07:04:20 AM »
Oneday, I'm with you on the a foot stopping the running. I gave up on a half marathon for this year. Yesterday I started cycling instead of running. Bummed but glad to still be able to do something without pain.

oneday

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Re: Strength & Fitness 2018
« Reply #480 on: September 12, 2018, 10:41:52 AM »
@Mongoose I have been more than bummed.  I would say depressed/mourning.  Going through the stages of grief, denial especially.  Moving into acceptance now, so that I can build activity level consistent with my abilities.

Do you have any goals with the biking?  I know your running was pretty ambitious.

Mongoose

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Re: Strength & Fitness 2018
« Reply #481 on: September 13, 2018, 07:06:14 AM »
@Mongoose I have been more than bummed.  I would say depressed/mourning.  Going through the stages of grief, denial especially.  Moving into acceptance now, so that I can build activity level consistent with my abilities.

Do you have any goals with the biking?  I know your running was pretty ambitious.
Your description is better than mine. :-) Are you laid off running long term? I'm going to try shorter distances in a few weeks and maybe back to a half marathon next year. I'm fighting not to be too discouraged about having trouble 2years in a row.

I'm also trying not to make cycling goals. :-). I tend towards big goals so this time I decided to just cycle until I either ran out of time (I usually give myself an hour) or start getting tired/achy. Then I turn around and head back. I went about 5 miles on level ground Tuesday which was basically my first time in 4 years to use my bike. I used to ride 10-20 miles a day...wish I had the time and stamina to do that! Foot seems fine with the activity but my legs get tired from the different motion and the seat makes my bum sore.

oneday

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Re: Strength & Fitness 2018
« Reply #482 on: September 13, 2018, 02:05:15 PM »
With plantar fasciitis, the recovery is long and unpredictable. So for peace of mind, I'm assuming I can never walk or run again. Last bout of PF lasted 3+ years. This time has only been since June, and I've gotten better care, but no promises. Hence the switched focus to biking. Kind of jealous you'll be back in running form so quickly.

Good for you, getting back on the (bike) saddle after so long! It will definitely take some time for your bum to acclimate. I rode 2.8 miles on Tuesday, and felt it this morning immediately on getting on the bike.
 
That seems like a good strategy for cycling (out and back with a time limit). Especially while you build up to it, legs and bum.

La Bibliotecaria Feroz

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Re: Strength & Fitness 2018
« Reply #483 on: September 17, 2018, 05:23:40 PM »
Just got back from wedding/cruise. I did 0 exercise.

The gym this morning was... difficult. But I bet I will sleep better tonight for having gone!

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Re: Strength & Fitness 2018
« Reply #484 on: September 18, 2018, 02:31:54 AM »
It’s been several months, but I’m going to look over the goals I posted here.  Some have changed, some have been surpassed, and some are cut out entirely.

Rack Pull 1 set/5@495lbs  1 set/5@545
Weighted Dip 1 set/5@90lbs  1 set/4@70lbs
Weighted Chin Up 1 set/5@45lbs 1 set/3@45lbs
Trap Bar Deadlift 1 set/5@405lbs Removed
Overhead Press 1 set/5@135lbs 1 set/8@135
Neck Curl 3 sets/20@90lbs 3 sets/20@90lbs
Push ups 1 set/50 1 set/47
Body weight >= 220lbs Bulked to 232, cut to 212.  Going to start bulking again soon.

I’ve got a new goal too: Barbell Hyperextensions 1 set/3@315.  I’m at 285 now.

oneday

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Re: Strength & Fitness 2018
« Reply #485 on: September 18, 2018, 05:53:17 AM »
@La Bibliotecaria Feroz congrats on your nuptials!

@AcftW cool to see how your goals are evolving while on your journey.

Did ride to the train on Thur and for fun on Sun (a whole hour!). Did not ride to the train Fri due to bike not fitting in locker very well and did not do strength routine due to missing the alarm. These are challenges that should be easy to overcome with some persistence.

This week I am out of town, so no biking. Walking is still minimized due to pain. So that leaves the strength. Will try for Wed, Fri, Sun, Tues. And look for opportunities to swim.

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Re: Strength & Fitness 2018
« Reply #486 on: September 27, 2018, 07:22:11 AM »
Okay, beginning stats as of 8/8/18

Weight: 217
Body Fat: 27%

I sat down with a trainer, and went over nutrition, macros, meal planning, and exercise program. First goal is to get down to 207. So he put me at 1950 calories per day clean eating, as that's the maintenance caloric intake for a 207-lb. guy my age with low activity.

GOAL 1:
What: Get to 207 lbs by Sept 5th (4 weeks)
How: 12-16 workouts and clean eating for next 4 weeks, hitting all macros

21 days later, down to 211. Probably gained a lb of muscle at least; feel much stronger. Haven't missed a workout yet and eating tons of protein (over 150 grams per day). Probably won't lose 4 more pounds in a week, but I believe I'm replacing fat with some muscle, so the scale won't move as much, but the results will show more.  Will try to get another body fat reading when I check in with the gym owner late next week. Everyone (in the US), enjoy an active labor day weekend!

Now down to 206 lbs and 25% body fat. Thriving in October will be tough, with a writing convention, a short vacation, and all the Halloween festivities (our favorite holiday). Goal is to emerge from Oct at 199 lbs. Lean and mean...but still lovable.

Spoon

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Re: Strength & Fitness 2018
« Reply #487 on: December 29, 2018, 04:01:35 PM »
What I achieved in 2019

I managed to complete 1 x 30 day yoga routine which I have never done before. Also averaged over 1 yoga session per week for the year

I managed to get to 10 pull ups in a row beating my previous best by 1. I changed my strength workouts to something quick that I had to do 7 days in a row before taking a few days off

I did 8 days of intermittent fasting

I did approx 44 cardio sessions

Overall I had a pretty good fitness year and am starting 2019 in decent shape. I did much better when the weather is better and when work got hectic, fitness was one of the things that got dropped.

2019 plan:

Using startbodyweight.com progressions increase strength by doing pull ups (3 x 8) pushups, squats and core 3 days a week.

Running 3 times a week. Keep at 4K until I hit 20 mins then swap to h.i.i.t

1 rest day a week

Need to look into eating correctly

Drink less alcohol


Measurable results:

I will get a photo taken on 1st of Jan and every 2 months afterwards

Keep using the fridge calendar


Goals:

I would like to get my 6-pack back

I want to be able to do one handed push ups

Work towards being able to do a planche

Work towards walking handstands

 
« Last Edit: December 30, 2018, 02:31:23 AM by Spoon »

oneday

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Re: Strength & Fitness 2018
« Reply #488 on: December 29, 2018, 10:37:05 PM »
Spoon, that is quite impressive!

I can't say the same.  My last post in Sept was pretty much my last workout.  But the foot is feeling better, so things may turn around in the new year.

Laura33

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Re: Strength & Fitness 2018
« Reply #489 on: January 01, 2019, 01:36:45 PM »
   
  • @Laura33
             
    • Workout logically - reduce risk of injury
    • >= 4x/week workout
    • < 3 consecutive weeks of 6+ workouts/week
    • Push ups 1 set/10
    • Pull ups 1 set/1
       

Checking in for accountability:  did ok overall. 

--  Successfully achieved goal to not be a macho dumbass and hurt myself from overuse.  I had several tweaks and injuries here and there, but I backed off and got treatment and successfully avoided turning a small annoyance into a big problem.

-- I usually made 4x/week, but I have to admit, there were weeks in which I didn't make 4, through no excuse other than sheer laziness.  But I'd call this one 90% achieved.  And I did avoid the 6x/wk overuse.

-- I did achieve a set of 10 "real" pushups and am psyched.  Unfortunately, the pull-up is still well beyond me.  I ended up doing a competition this fall, and so I spent a lot of time prepping for that instead of focusing on the pull-ups.  But it was fun -- so much fun I'm doing it again this spring -- so I don't regret that choice at all.

-- In unexpected good news, I dropped my back squat goal due to my recurring knee issues, but even despite that, I did increase back and front squats by about 10 lbs each -- and I got my zercher squat up to 185 lbs out of the blue (higher than my back squat even).  So I am very happy with that, and my reward was to have no quad/glute issues skiing at all.

Overall, I am very pleased -- for someone who has never been a gym rat, this has probably been my most successful fitness year overall, and I am very happy about the strength I have gained and how I have managed my own brain.  Now if only I could find a way to like cardio. . . . 

EngineerYogi

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Re: Strength & Fitness 2018
« Reply #490 on: January 02, 2019, 03:08:51 PM »
Participant List

  • @EngineerYogi
             
    • Do something fitnessy
    • Consistently teach/do yoga
           

Welp, I'm glad I set the bar low! I am still teaching yoga, roughly every other week. I also started a 3 day per week lifting plan with some other military spouse moms. We haven't been great at getting to the gym all 3 days every week, but it's been a lot more than I was doing (ie nothing)!