Author Topic: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner  (Read 35270 times)

nereo

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #50 on: January 26, 2022, 04:52:57 AM »
This brings up a question my spouse and I have been wrestling with lately.

Our region in northern New England heats overwhelmingly with heating fuel, though the state is incentivizing heat pumps in a meaningful way (as I believe they should).  My dilemma is with the build-out of natural gas pipelines, particularly to rural areas. They’re trying to build out the distribution lines in part with municipal bonds, but clearly we aren’t too keen on people replacing one very bad fossil fuel with an arguably less-bad fossil fuel. I’d much rather that money went towards more heat pumps and (ideally) a lot more insulation.

Question becomes - do we actively oppose natural gas distribution buildout? It’s a bit different when you are trying to do what you think is right for yourself, than when you are trying to deny services you have long enjoyed (we’ve had a gas boiler in our old home and a gas stove - which was certainly fun to cook on.)

I guess we’re struggling with standing up and saying “No! I don’t want you to have these choices that I so recently enjoyed because I think you should electrify for the sake of everyone!”

Sanitary Stache

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #51 on: January 26, 2022, 08:00:49 AM »
@nereo municipal bonds should have a higher bar then I see in rural northern New England.

The gas mains should have numbers on how many people they expect to serve and how much it will cost. I would want the Town to compare those numbers to using the same municipally bonded money to just give people the money they propose borrowing and installing the whole house heat pumps and induction stoves.

Public funds for gas transmission/distribution is a huge mistake designed to subsidize the profits of the rich.
You didn’t enjoy natural gas, you enjoyed on demand heat and the ability to cook efficiently.

I would encourage not just offering opposition but also an alternative. Though I don’t see myself being able to do that if faced with the same situation. Maybe their is a non profit out there that can help.

omachi

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #52 on: January 26, 2022, 10:42:31 AM »
My utility certainly appears to be trying to encourage people to move away from natural gas with the price increases this year. I get that they got soaked when Texas did its grid toppling thing, preventing Texas from exporting natural gas, in the middle of a nasty cold snap up here and driving up demand prices. They're going to pass that cost onto customers because they can.

Still, compared to the same period last year, it was 7 degrees colder. This resulted in our using 15% more natural gas to keep the house heated. That resulted in a 95% increase in cost, thanks to said price increases and "Pricing Event Surcharges". Electrical increases are coming too, and we already have higher interim rates, but my solar should offset all of that. Actually, it will move the break even date forward.

My air conditioner is going to need replacing in the near future. I've heard modern air source heat pumps work better in the cold than the older ones. My furnace is new enough that it would happily play with a heat pump, providing backup heat when it's too cold (like early this morning at about -15* F) rather than being the only heat source. I'm just having trouble finding at what temperature any given unit cuts over, if they're programable based on cost and not efficiency, and how to estimate costs and payback rates. Anybody have any good sources, or am I just going to have to deal with the companies I'd buy it from?

Syonyk

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #53 on: January 26, 2022, 04:59:53 PM »
My air conditioner is going to need replacing in the near future. I've heard modern air source heat pumps work better in the cold than the older ones.

They do.

Quote
My furnace is new enough that it would happily play with a heat pump, providing backup heat when it's too cold (like early this morning at about -15* F) rather than being the only heat source. I'm just having trouble finding at what temperature any given unit cuts over, if they're programable based on cost and not efficiency, and how to estimate costs and payback rates. Anybody have any good sources, or am I just going to have to deal with the companies I'd buy it from?

It's generally up to the thermostat.  You'll need a "dual fuel" capable thermostat, though most heat pump capable ones do a tolerable job of it anyway (the "strips" or "coils" are just a secondary heating device).  You'll just need to sit down with your energy costs and efficiency curves and do the math yourself, though.  I don't know of any devices that are remotely capable of doing cost-based stuff.

There are some Raspberry Pi based thermostats no longer in production that might let you program a bit more in, if you wanted...

middo

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #54 on: January 27, 2022, 11:17:24 PM »
Chiming in with another Australian perspective here.  We are renovating an old house that had gas heating, gas hot water and electric cooking (not induction).  In the last 3 years we have:
  • Replaced the gas heater (a small fireplace type one) with a wood heater.  We have so much wood here from fallen trees that we haven't had to source any off our own property yet.
  • Replaced the hot water heater with an electric resistive unit.  The reasoning was that we could get a bundle along with solar panels, and the wonders of modern technology, the panels when generating electricity power the house first, then any excess is used to power the hot water, and only then does excess go into the grid.
  • We have totally disconnected the gas, which has also saved us a connection cost of around $30 per month

However, we still have one petrol car, and two petrol motorbikes.  We would like to go electric here, but the cost in Australia is still very high.  I am hopeful in the next couple of years we will be able to go EV as well, and cut the fossil fuel ties totally.

nereo

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #55 on: January 28, 2022, 05:26:53 AM »
Interesting read:  Apparently gas appliances are a considerable contributor to green-house gases even when they are completely off (leaks) and during the 1-3 seconds between when the stove is turned on but the burners have not ignited. 

I loved cooking on gas but the modern electric ranges have come so far from the resistive coils my parents used.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2022/01/27/gas-stoves-kitchens-pose-risk-public-health-planet-research-finds/

LD_TAndK

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #56 on: January 28, 2022, 06:11:20 AM »
I've been very impressed with my modern heat pump. I have a nest thermostat set to "max savings" so it only turns the back up electric coil heat on when absolutely necessary. We had a 10 degree day where the thermostat used the heat pump alone to keep the house at steady temperature (coils were used to bring the house up to morning temp initially).

When the electric coil heat kicks in it's pretty kick-ass, we have an 18kW coil (equivalent to 12 space heaters on full blast!) for an 1800 square foot house. It pumps out air hotter than any gas/oil furnace I've seen.

We also have a glass top electric range, on High it boils water incredibly quickly, way faster than a gas range. I assume induction is even better.

Daily electricity use has averaged 32 kWh over this January, for our all electric house (except car). Not bad!

omachi

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #57 on: January 28, 2022, 03:30:13 PM »
Quote
My furnace is new enough that it would happily play with a heat pump, providing backup heat when it's too cold (like early this morning at about -15* F) rather than being the only heat source. I'm just having trouble finding at what temperature any given unit cuts over, if they're programable based on cost and not efficiency, and how to estimate costs and payback rates. Anybody have any good sources, or am I just going to have to deal with the companies I'd buy it from?

It's generally up to the thermostat.  You'll need a "dual fuel" capable thermostat, though most heat pump capable ones do a tolerable job of it anyway (the "strips" or "coils" are just a secondary heating device).  You'll just need to sit down with your energy costs and efficiency curves and do the math yourself, though.  I don't know of any devices that are remotely capable of doing cost-based stuff.
Was afraid of that. Thought maybe companies that have their own furnace, heat pump, and thermostat ecosystem might let you pick the equipment and do it for you if you provided the thermostat price info, since they know all their efficiencies.

I suppose it's just a spreadsheet that needs to take electric and gas prices, run the numbers on the efficiency values, mind the max output of the heat pump, and spit out a point to switch over.

alsoknownasDean

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #58 on: January 30, 2022, 02:39:28 AM »
We also have a glass top electric range, on High it boils water incredibly quickly, way faster than a gas range. I assume induction is even better.

My parents have a glass resistive electric cooktop (they live in a rural area without mains gas). The issue I have with it is it seems to pulse quite slowly when set to less than 100%. It pulses to 100% for a few seconds and then switches off.

My IKEA portable induction cooktop doesn't do that, and I'll find out about the Westinghouse one I have sitting on my floor ready for installation :)
« Last Edit: January 30, 2022, 02:44:59 AM by alsoknownasDean »

LD_TAndK

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #59 on: January 30, 2022, 04:31:52 AM »

My parents have a glass resistive electric cooktop (they live in a rural area without mains gas). The issue I have with it is it seems to pulse quite slowly when set to less than 100%. It pulses to 100% for a few seconds and then switches off.


Yeah this can be irritating. Also, when if I start it up at anywhere below 30% it takes forever to get hot. Solution is to put it at 100% for a minute, then down to 30%. I do love that I can quickly put it at 10% and walk away and know the pot will simmer at a known power. With gas stoves I have to adjust down while looking at the flame, then have to re-check the food in a couple minutes to be sure the food isn't scalding and the flame didn't go out.

Fun comedy/climate youtube channel video about gas stoves: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hX2aZUav-54

dandarc

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #60 on: February 21, 2022, 11:38:45 AM »
Probably the last thing on this for us is going to be the heat - as mentioned upthread, the list is 1 car, water heater, heat, and in a perfect world some solution for our gas generator for that rare week-long power outage. We live in Florida, but a part of the state where we do need to heat some over the winter. We have a gas package system" that was replaced in 2016. So AC in summer = already electric, heat in winter = gas. In hindsight, probably should have replaced with a heat pump package system in 2016, but we went with a similar system to the one we were replacing.

However - we have this back room that does not heat or cool well due to inadequate ductwork (and our house is very difficult to work on - any number of contractors has taken a quick look in the attic and said "nope - gonna have to figure something else out" over the years). So we put a portable AC / heat pump back there, thinking we could use it there when needed and also move it during a lengthy power outage. Power draw is low enough the generator runs it no problem at all. It manages to AC without any condensation to deal with, but in heat pump mode it has to be drained quite frequently - solved that recently by co-opting a plastic bin we had and was able to run it for more than an hour at a time and we realized that unit - by itself - was effectively heating the whole main living area of the house. Basically half the whole place.

So now I'm wondering when the time comes - what if we get rid of the ductwork entirely and replace with mini-split heat pumps. Or just use a few portable units. Or maybe both - mini splits for the parts of the house that we might care more about aesthetics and portables for the less important spaces.

RWD

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #61 on: February 22, 2022, 06:33:36 AM »
I've been casually browsing some house listing and found it extremely frustrating how many have natural gas. Even brand new construction in areas perfect for solar! That should be illegal. What bugs me most is when they say the natural gas features save energy...

nereo

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #62 on: February 22, 2022, 06:47:55 AM »
I've been casually browsing some house listing and found it extremely frustrating how many have natural gas. Even brand new construction in areas perfect for solar! That should be illegal. What bugs me most is when they say the natural gas features save energy...

One of our primary concerns when searching for our new home was its solar potential and energy efficiency (both actual and potential with moderate improvements).  This drove our realtor batty since the line-specs for homes never include anything of this information. Even 'Solar Score' or 'Sun number' (which you can get from sites like RedFin and Zillow) isn't part of the automatic search criteria in the MLS database, and while the energy consumption is on the disclosures it's also not searchable and is never converted into Therms to make comparisons easy.

dandarc

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #63 on: February 22, 2022, 10:36:36 AM »
I've been casually browsing some house listing and found it extremely frustrating how many have natural gas. Even brand new construction in areas perfect for solar! That should be illegal. What bugs me most is when they say the natural gas features save energy...
Compared to traditional electric appliances, it usually does save energy. Compared to a heat pump, the opposite.

Our municipal utility has rebates on lots of energy-efficient appliances. However, every single one comes with the disclaimer "unless you're replacing a natural gas appliance". I think the city really needs to be able to charge for the gas in ways other than the fuel portion of electric bills maybe? Or just a sunk-cost thing - building out the gas distribution network and maintaining it was/is surely pretty expensive.

rockeTree

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #64 on: February 22, 2022, 11:23:45 AM »
We have a good position and climate for solar and when the roof fails (maybe 5 years max) will go to that - maybe those new GAF roof tiles, maybe more conventional panels; in order in the meantime we will do the gas hot water heater (waiting for the 120v to be available here), the gas stove (waiting for the partner to be more enthusiastic plus it'll be a chunk of change to get other features that will ultimately sell the somewhat reluctant partner on the deal), the ICE car, and finally and hopefully before 2030 but not certainly replace the gas furnace with a heat pump. The existing HVAC is not old and runs very well and is very efficient so it will be the longest holdout. Mostly noting this for accountability; no special insights into the tech here :-)

alsoknownasDean

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #65 on: March 21, 2022, 08:35:06 AM »
One more gas-burning appliance gone...I had my induction cooktop installed recently. Hooray!

Definitely glad to be rid of that hard to clean gas cooktop.

I've also had some insulation quotes last week.

Solar PV is quite cheap here and I'm considering getting it, but the problem is my energy usage is higher in winter and quite low in the warmer months, which doesn't quite match up with solar production. Feed-in tariffs are rapidly on the decline so it's worthwhile to use as much as I can generate.

RWD

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #66 on: March 21, 2022, 08:58:34 AM »
One more gas-burning appliance gone...I had my induction cooktop installed recently. Hooray!

Definitely glad to be rid of that hard to clean gas cooktop.
Woohoo!

Solar PV is quite cheap here and I'm considering getting it, but the problem is my energy usage is higher in winter and quite low in the warmer months, which doesn't quite match up with solar production. Feed-in tariffs are rapidly on the decline so it's worthwhile to use as much as I can generate.
Do you have an EV? That would be a relatively constant year-round electricity sink.

alsoknownasDean

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #67 on: March 21, 2022, 06:12:52 PM »
Do you have an EV? That would be a relatively constant year-round electricity sink.

I don't, and most likely won't while I'm in this place.

A typical size (6.6kW) solar array would produce something like 7-8 times my daily electricity usage in summer (note that I'm still using gas hot water for now), but wouldn't cover my winter usage (I'm in a heating dominant climate). I'd be selling any excess to the grid for (currently) about one third of what it costs to import (no 1:1 metering here). Likely still makes sense given I can swap out the gas water heater to electric running off solar and the panels likely still cover all of my daytime usage for eight months of the year.

Surprised that there hasn't been much mention of Saul Griffith's advocacy in this thread yet.

https://www.rewiringamerica.org/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-solutions/interactive/2021/saul-griffith-mass-electrification/
https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/21349200/climate-change-fossil-fuels-rewiring-america-electrify
https://www.rewiringaustralia.org/
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/feb/05/electric-monaros-and-hotted-up-skateboards-the-genius-who-wants-to-electrify-our-world
« Last Edit: March 21, 2022, 06:15:43 PM by alsoknownasDean »

rockeTree

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #68 on: April 05, 2022, 08:25:53 AM »
The IPCC reminds us that the time to act at whatever scale you can is rapidly running out, and further tells us that many fossil based systems will have to be replaced before their end of life to have a chance at 1.5 or close to it. So if you have the means, maybe don't wait for the old system to wear out. I asked for quotes to eliminate the gas hot water today. 120v systems are now coming onto the market to make this easier for gas conversions; leaning towards https://www.phcppros.com/articles/14936-article-headline unless a pro gives me a compelling reason to choose another option for my specific setup.

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #69 on: April 05, 2022, 09:38:50 AM »
Thanks for the info on the water heater. I have someone coming out today to look at installing both heat pumps and electric heat pump water heaters in both my house and a rental house. We'll see what the estimates come to.

Now the question is what to do about my car. If I drive it less than 5,000 miles per year, is it still worth replacing it with an electric model? It still has several good years in it.

rockeTree

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #70 on: April 05, 2022, 10:11:07 AM »
That's one on my plate as well. I am hoping to get a folding electric commuter bike and see if that can eliminate our ICE car; with the low miles I drive it def does not make sense to buy a whole new car in order to have an electric one. Moving to the one hybrid we have would be a pretty good cut (of course the Fit is a hot commodity on the used market and whoever I sold it to would surely drive it more than I would - but would that marginal buyer otherwise buy an electric or something less efficient?).

Thinking about the TC3. I need the fold because I have to haul it on a train; a locked bike at the station all day will surely be stolen here. https://ebikechampion.com/products/totemusa-tc3-folding-electric-bike

nereo

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #71 on: April 05, 2022, 10:15:47 AM »
Thanks for the info on the water heater. I have someone coming out today to look at installing both heat pumps and electric heat pump water heaters in both my house and a rental house. We'll see what the estimates come to.

Now the question is what to do about my car. If I drive it less than 5,000 miles per year, is it still worth replacing it with an electric model? It still has several good years in it.

“Worth it” depends heavily on your values and financial situation.
Economically it’s almost certainly not going to make financial sense (as defined by your ROI) to replace your vehicle when you drive such a modest amount. Particularly now when the used market is bonkers for EVs and PHEVs. But there are other benefits beyond what’s the cheapest to drive.

I’d first put your money towards PVs and weatherization. Come back to a BEV in 2-3 years. But otoh we are doing both right now, so…

rockeTree

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #72 on: April 05, 2022, 11:21:15 AM »
I think there is also a reasonable question about the social and environmental costs associated with producing a BEV if you're not going to displace that many gas powered miles.

But yeah, insulating the bejesus out of your house is always the first move if you haven't yet and you are allowed. If you're in the US, your utility likely has a program that will help you figure out where the big opportunities are and maybe hook you up with some rebates or tax credits!

Chaplin

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #73 on: April 05, 2022, 11:34:17 AM »
I'm definitely in for this challenge! Fortunately, we are fairly already far down that road.

Progress so far:
1. We live in BC where essentially all electricity is hydro-electric except for some smaller islands that aren't connected to the grid. Those tend to be diesel gen-sets!

2. The house we bought a few years ago had just been renovated which included the installation of a heat-pump, an induction stove (love it!), and blown insulation in the attic.

3. We replaced one car with an EV almost four years ago and the other car (Subaru Legacy) only does about 3000km per year. At that rate it could last many years, although it has cost a fair bit just to keep it running lately.

4. Now that I have FIRE'd I almost always walk or bike locally. The EV takes us on any road-trips, camping, etc.

5. If the Subaru were to die, or if we decide it's not worth keeping any more, my wife seems willing to try going with the EV, an e-cargo bike, car-share, etc.

6. Thirteen-year-old son said he didn't want a driver's license. That will likely change, and I do think it's essential to have one even if you don't have a car, but his head is in the right place.

Challenges:
1. House is not super well insulated. We replaced three windows, but once we've replaced a few more and a sliding door our remaining options are a lot more expensive. Re-doing any of the insulation in the walls would only make sense if/when we have to redo the exterior (painted stucco). Some of the renovation work that was done missed a few things, like insulating rim joists I think, but fixing that potentially means a lot of drywall work.

2. We have succeeded in sealing up a lot of air leaks, although nowhere near a Passivhaus level, but if we do much more we'll probably need a heat-recovery air exchange system.

3. Upstairs (living room, kitchen, master bedroom, office) are kept warm by the heat-pump. The downstairs has baseboard heaters and fairly poor insulation. It's already electric so it meets the goal of not burning stuff, but it's where we're least efficient. A second heat-pump with two zones for the basement might be an option. A second heat-pump has the advantage of providing some redundancy too. Our neighbour's heat-pump motor failed during a cold stretch.

4. Backup heat: we get very few power outages here, despite some pretty good windstorms, but if there was an extended one we would either want a super-insulated house, or a backup heat source. We have a propane fireplace insert as a backup, although it really needs the fan to be effective. Because our insulation isn't great we do use this insert on especially cold days to supplement the heat-pump. Eliminating it completely is a challenge. Our propane use is low but not zero. Step one is probably moving the plug for the fan so in a power failure we could run it on a backup battery (Ecoflow, Bluetti, etc.).

5. Solar options on our roof aren't great due to angle and shading. Solar in BC makes less sense than many places due to low electricity rates anyway, but that does make EVs make more sense. I've considered building a stand-alone garage and that location would have better sun, so that could be a location for PV. Building it as a super-insulated and earthquake resistance structure could allow us to ditch the propane as it could be our emergency location in the event of an extended outage.

6. Probably the biggest challenge is broader than us. We live in a fairly car-dependent area. It's not like a "classic" North American suburb as it's an older neighbourhood (built in the 1940's) but it's not at the level of density that, frankly, all cities need to be aiming for if not burning stuff is the goal. I'm willing to walk and bike a lot more than many people, including my wife. Many of our neighbours might walk for recreation, but never to actually go anywhere for errands. We have one grocery store that's a 15 minute walk away, and many many options within 30 minutes, but it could be so much better. As with most municipalities, it's a drag-out, knock-down fight with both the city council and the NIMBYs to get sidewalks, bike lanes, bus routes, and zoning for buildings with enough density to support a local coffee shop or frequent transit. This has been why I've used my time in FIRE to get involved in activism around these things. They are probably way more important than anything I can do to my own house or transportation choices (but I still want to do those too of course).

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #74 on: April 05, 2022, 01:47:27 PM »
My progress towards this goal is one EV(wife and I currently only using one car), electric weed eater, electric leaf blower.

The EV purchase was in part made to help justify the purchase of solar for our next home(and vice versa i.e. solar helps justify the purchase of the EV).  Also would like to have heat pump so that both heating an cooling are electric, again, to further help justify solar and vice versa.  We spent $10,000 last year on fuel, electric, and heat(gas).  Rough estimate off the top of my head but likely pretty close.  Changing this to zero permanently will be nice.

Been reading up on geo-thermal systems.  A lot to learn, and not always feasible obviously.  We are leaning towards a townhome so geo-thermal heat pump system may not be an option.

A mom

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #75 on: April 05, 2022, 02:35:08 PM »
My progress towards this goal is one EV(wife and I currently only using one car), electric weed eater, electric leaf blower.



I bought an electric lawn mower just so I wouldn't have to mess around with gasoline and starting the darn thing. I love it.

middo

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #76 on: April 05, 2022, 03:51:26 PM »
My progress towards this goal is one EV(wife and I currently only using one car), electric weed eater, electric leaf blower.



I bought an electric lawn mower just so I wouldn't have to mess around with gasoline and starting the darn thing. I love it.

Our next move (probably in the next 12 months) will mean we can't take our gardening equipment due to quarantine regulations.  All new equipment will be battery electric.  I have been eyeing off the automatic lawn mowers, which look a bit like an oversized roomba.  Not cheap yet, but very very tempting for an auto mow, auto recharge device.

nereo

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #77 on: April 05, 2022, 04:59:09 PM »
My progress towards this goal is one EV(wife and I currently only using one car), electric weed eater, electric leaf blower.



I bought an electric lawn mower just so I wouldn't have to mess around with gasoline and starting the darn thing. I love it.

I bought an electric mower because I hate loud engines, and breathing the exhaust from a two stroke, and disturbing my neighbors. Now I can hold a conversation while mowing, which has been a revelation. I love it too

A mom

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #78 on: April 06, 2022, 08:23:31 AM »

But yeah, insulating the bejesus out of your house is always the first move if you haven't yet and you are allowed. If you're in the US, your utility likely has a program that will help you figure out where the big opportunities are and maybe hook you up with some rebates or tax credits!

Does anyone have any good info about adding insulation to walls? Our house is over 60 years old, so I'm sure it could use it, but I hear stories that it won't help much, may all fall to the bottom of the wall or will rot out the siding. Also, windows are original, but every energy audit we have ever done has said they were fine. And insulating the basement has issues because it gets wet sometimes. So other than the attic, which now has plenty of insulation, I have been frustrated in figuring out how to cut heat loss. I know the house is fairly tight, because we did a blower door test.

A mom

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #79 on: April 06, 2022, 01:48:31 PM »
Another question: for those of you that replaced a gas stove with an electric one, did you have to have anyone do anything special to shut off the gas to that area of the kitchen? Think I have an electrician line up to put in the new electricity, looks like the stove I want won't take long to get here, just wondering what I have to do to make sure all bases are covered for the switch.

rockeTree

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #80 on: April 06, 2022, 02:36:03 PM »
I don't know about your walls but my guess is that if the energy audits don't suggest it they are not a big win for you. And old well made windows can perform well for ages is my understanding too.

On the stove I do not know but I am interested to hear! Especially since that gas line is where mice chew through whenever we get them every few years :-)

I wrote three folks for quotes on replacing the gas water heater with an electric heat pump and have had no replies, making me wonder if it is a fiddly task. Will try another batch Friday if I don't hear anything by then.

And a pal thinks he know someone with an electric bike I can get secondhand!

AlanStache

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #81 on: April 07, 2022, 07:10:19 AM »
Ordered an ebike last night, Roadster v2 from Ride1UP.  Been on the fence for probably years.  Driving the 6miles just feels so stupid but riding a manual bike would add enough time and hassle that it did not happen regularly (I have been a proper cyclist in past - I know how to ride and I have all the kit). 

Reducing the burn around the house is a different story.  Ideally I would to move to a more out of suburbia to a walkable area but that would require a long car commute or a new job.   I spray foamed the air gaps years back and that made a huge difference, need to look at blown insulation for the attic again (after taxes get settled). 

I fourth the greatness of induction cooking - replaced a standard electric cooktop early this year as part of a kitchen makeover.

Edit: When I bought the house I intentionally went 100% electric yard tools.  Extension cords are a minor pain but I think easier than gas, no worry about a motor starting up that has not run in 2 years and has bad gas in the tank.  At some point I may go for a battery lawn mower but will not needlessly spend that money. 
« Last Edit: April 07, 2022, 10:07:07 AM by AlanStache »

A mom

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #82 on: April 07, 2022, 09:09:53 AM »
Alanstache, I predict you will LOVE  your ebike. Every time I ride mine, I smile from ear to ear.

Chaplin

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #83 on: April 07, 2022, 09:26:16 AM »
I bought an electric mower because I hate loud engines, and breathing the exhaust from a two stroke, and disturbing my neighbors. Now I can hold a conversation while mowing, which has been a revelation. I love it too

We did this too. I made it to my late forties never needed one but when we moved it was pretty much necessary - fortunately we didn't already have something that needed replacing. There's a campaign to eliminate gas powered leaf blowers that I hope will succeed to. Leaf blowers in general, electric or not, seem pretty useless, at least for leaves. I can rake a lawn twice as fast with better results.

My wife wanted a weed whacker thing. She did her research and got an electric one. I've switched back to just the manual shears for a few reasons: getting the wire rewound and attached is a pain, but mainly, as I got into trying to mitigate plastic waste I realized that 100% of weed trimmer plastic wire ends up on the ground and in soil or runoff, by design. That's unconscionable.

rockeTree

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #84 on: April 07, 2022, 02:15:57 PM »
Yeah I used a push mower for years but my yard was becoming an eyesore with it and I caved and got electric two years ago. Overkill for my tiny yard but now I do an elderly neighbor's as well so that's strengthening the fabric of the neighborhood I guess. The cord is no trouble. Going gas and storing it safely would I suspect require me to ... build a shed? Not happening.

RWD

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #85 on: April 07, 2022, 03:45:52 PM »
My wife wanted a weed whacker thing. She did her research and got an electric one. I've switched back to just the manual shears for a few reasons: getting the wire rewound and attached is a pain, but mainly, as I got into trying to mitigate plastic waste I realized that 100% of weed trimmer plastic wire ends up on the ground and in soil or runoff, by design. That's unconscionable.
Apparently there was a biodegradable trimmer line called BioTrim but it looks like it was discontinued... Echo apparently also makes some but I couldn't figure out where you would buy it.

Chaplin

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #86 on: April 07, 2022, 04:00:20 PM »
My wife wanted a weed whacker thing. She did her research and got an electric one. I've switched back to just the manual shears for a few reasons: getting the wire rewound and attached is a pain, but mainly, as I got into trying to mitigate plastic waste I realized that 100% of weed trimmer plastic wire ends up on the ground and in soil or runoff, by design. That's unconscionable.
Apparently there was a biodegradable trimmer line called BioTrim but it looks like it was discontinued... Echo apparently also makes some but I couldn't figure out where you would buy it.

Interesting, thanks for mentioning it.

RWD

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #87 on: April 21, 2022, 06:53:55 AM »
We got ours in 2007. How did you contact them? E-mail? Phone?

DW did it, so I'd guess E-mail. She hates the phone.

Thanks to your suggestion we have now swapped our set for brand new induction-capable pots! I don't know when we might have an induction stove but I'm happier knowing we'll be ready for one. I'm also much happier with the lower ply pots as they are much much lighter than what we had before. The old pots were really a pain to use and wash because of the weight.

NorCal

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #88 on: April 21, 2022, 08:37:29 AM »
I'm in!  I'm also taking it a step further, and going for full net-zero, so some of mine are about energy reduction as well.

In fact, this is very much what I had in mind, when I started the "Budget your emissions" challenge a few months back: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/throw-down-the-gauntlet/budget-your-emissions-like-your-finances!/.  This seems to have some better traction, so I'll jump in here as well.

If you haven't looked at it, running the numbers on your emissions can help prioritize what your biggest users are.

Here's what I've done so far:

1. Bought a home energy monitor.  This helped me find some energy using gremlins.  Surprisingly, it also helped me stop worrying about energy usage on some items around the house.  I now appreciate how my energy usage is focused on HVAC, the water heater, dryer and oven.  I no longer stress about the lights or being 100% efficient with the dishwasher. 

2. Replaced my gas water heater with a heat-pump.  Given our recent increase in gas prices, this had a financial return north of 20%.  This is partly due the inefficiency of the old system and it being a partial DIY project.  This is a good place to start, as it pays for itself pretty rapidly.

3. Installed a whole house fan.  My initial guesstimate is that this will reduce energy usage and have a financial return similar to solar panels in my climate.  This will also help keep our upstairs cool in the summers, which can turn into a bit of a heat trap.

4. I'm on the waitlist to get an EV.

Next Steps:
1. Replace our gas furnace with a heat-pump.  I had expected this to happen WAY in the future, but Denver just announced a $9,000 rebate for heat-pump installations.  Details are still sketchy, but I'll at least be getting some quotes to see if it makes sense sooner.

2. Add solar to our existing tiny 3kw system that came with the house.  Our roof probably has 3-5 years left, so we'll do this when we replace the roof.

All in, I think we can do this for $40-$50K after incentives and tax breaks.  And this will reduce our utility bill by about $1,500 today and $2,000ish if you include an EV's electrical usage.  That's a 4-5% return before inflation, or 7-8% return when factoring in 3% energy price inflation.  When you consider your investments have some tax burden, this kinda looks like a financial no-brainer.

NorCal

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #89 on: April 21, 2022, 11:01:16 AM »
I wrote three folks for quotes on replacing the gas water heater with an electric heat pump and have had no replies, making me wonder if it is a fiddly task. Will try another batch Friday if I don't hear anything by then.

I had this same problem last year.  I called three plumbers for quotes.  Two ghosted me and one quoted $5,000.

I've come to realize is that this technology is new enough that the plumbers don't understand it yet, and they don't want to be on the hook for warranty recalls.  Also, most plumbers don't do electrical work, and most installations require a new breaker.

I ended up paying an electrician $500 to do the wiring, then I did the plumbing by myself.  It cost me a little more than $2k all in (after the $300 tax credit).  It's much easier than you think.  Feel free to send me a PM if you want any specific advice on your use case.  I ended up learning more about these things than most plumbers know about them.  I've started advocating for them, and I'm happy to share the pros/cons, and installation tips.  Also, as much as I like them, there are some homes that are not well suited for heat pump water heaters.  I'm happy to give an honest opinion if they are right for your situation.

NorCal

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #90 on: April 21, 2022, 11:27:10 AM »
My progress towards this goal is one EV(wife and I currently only using one car), electric weed eater, electric leaf blower.



I bought an electric lawn mower just so I wouldn't have to mess around with gasoline and starting the darn thing. I love it.

I bought an electric mower because I hate loud engines, and breathing the exhaust from a two stroke, and disturbing my neighbors. Now I can hold a conversation while mowing, which has been a revelation. I love it too

If you're in the market, take a look at reel mowers as well.  I bought one when we moved into this house, and I can't think of any good reason we would need either gas or electric instead.  It cuts the grass just fine, and only needs an occasional sharpening for maintenance.  I like that it takes up less space in my already fullish garage.

I might not buy one if I had a massive yard, but I struggle to understand the real benefits of power mowing.  My yard is admitedly pretty small though.

rockeTree

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #91 on: April 21, 2022, 12:47:45 PM »
I wrote three folks for quotes on replacing the gas water heater with an electric heat pump and have had no replies, making me wonder if it is a fiddly task. Will try another batch Friday if I don't hear anything by then.

I had this same problem last year.  I called three plumbers for quotes.  Two ghosted me and one quoted $5,000.

I've come to realize is that this technology is new enough that the plumbers don't understand it yet, and they don't want to be on the hook for warranty recalls.  Also, most plumbers don't do electrical work, and most installations require a new breaker.

I ended up paying an electrician $500 to do the wiring, then I did the plumbing by myself.  It cost me a little more than $2k all in (after the $300 tax credit).  It's much easier than you think.  Feel free to send me a PM if you want any specific advice on your use case.  I ended up learning more about these things than most plumbers know about them.  I've started advocating for them, and I'm happy to share the pros/cons, and installation tips.  Also, as much as I like them, there are some homes that are not well suited for heat pump water heaters.  I'm happy to give an honest opinion if they are right for your situation.

You are right! I am having a very hard time getting anyone to take my money for this. And if the electricity is done to code then either DIY or convincing a plumber to install one I buy might get easier. I have exhausted the list of local Rheem dealers and a few other folks besides with no luck. PM incoming.


AlanStache

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #92 on: April 21, 2022, 01:17:24 PM »
...
If you're in the market, take a look at reel mowers as well.  I bought one when we moved into this house, and I can't think of any good reason we would need either gas or electric instead.  It cuts the grass just fine, and only needs an occasional sharpening for maintenance.  I like that it takes up less space in my already fullish garage.

I might not buy one if I had a massive yard, but I struggle to understand the real benefits of power mowing.  My yard is admitedly pretty small though.

We (in Va) can get weeks alternating rain and full sun where its hard to get a mow in and the weeds & grass get rather tall - might be hard to push a manual mower in taller wetter vegetation. 

AccidentialMustache

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #93 on: April 21, 2022, 10:24:19 PM »
I might not buy one if I had a massive yard, but I struggle to understand the real benefits of power mowing.  My yard is admitedly pretty small though.

We (in Va) can get weeks alternating rain and full sun where its hard to get a mow in and the weeds & grass get rather tall - might be hard to push a manual mower in taller wetter vegetation.

I grew up on an acre, mowing half of it with a push gas mower (not powered, not riding). That was bad enough.

When we bought our first house, DW didn't want to deal with paying someone to mow or gas powered equipment and it was 2005 so li-ion was still a very new (consumer) tech. Nobody was making meaningful battery mowers. So she got a reel mower. We were on a bit more than 1/4 acre, but with a bigger footprint between house and drive and sidewalks (corner lot) on it than my parents footprint on their acre. The reel mower did fine, in general, there.

However...

Reel mowers simply don't work on wet grass. This isn't "it gums up" like a powered mower. The wheels just slide on the grass without turning the blades. There's enough friction in the system (eg, the blades need some pressure to actually cut the grass) that no amount of oiling the innards is going to fix it.

They also simply don't work on long stuff, and especially don't work on seed stalks if the grass grows that much while it is raining.

And we live in the midwest, and yes both of those happened with some regularity. She'd either have to do the short, angry pushes, multiple times over to get it to cut long grass (once the rain quit) or pay someone to do it occasionally when there were issues.

When we had a kid, she (eventually) switched to paying a guy we found we liked. Wanted the time for the kid. When we moved to get closer to the kid's school, we had a lot less shade so more growing grass. However that was 2017 and li-ion battery mowers are now a thing and are perfectly fine at a yard our size. The battery mower is good enough I haven't seen her pull out the reel mower since we got it, although she has talked about sharpening the family heirloom scythe she inherited and seeing how it is to "mow" with that.

AccidentialMustache

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #94 on: April 21, 2022, 10:25:36 PM »
Thanks to your suggestion we have now swapped our set for brand new induction-capable pots! I don't know when we might have an induction stove but I'm happier knowing we'll be ready for one. I'm also much happier with the lower ply pots as they are much much lighter than what we had before. The old pots were really a pain to use and wash because of the weight.

Nice! Glad to hear it worked out for you as well. It can be amazing what you can get by asking nicely sometimes.

Abe

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #95 on: April 23, 2022, 05:31:56 PM »
Any recommendations on an induction cooktop to replace a 36” gas one? Also a wok to use with it? Thanks!

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #96 on: April 23, 2022, 06:04:04 PM »
Just finished upgrading the electrical, which includes a service upgrade and a new dual L2 charger, both of which pave the way for us to replace our second vehicle with a BEV. It also opens up space for us to put in a heat pump, which should reduce how much we use the boiler by at least 80% (basically only on the 10-15 coldest days of the year).
Now to increase our number of PVs and adding some exterior insulation.

I’m still on the fence about what to do with our aging-but-still-functional oil-fuel boiler. I’d love to get rid of it entirely but with heat pumps it gets relegated to extreme-cold use only, plus emergency heat as we’ve got a generator switch which exclusively powers the boiler via a tiny 2k portable Honda generator.


bacchi

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #97 on: April 23, 2022, 06:33:06 PM »
I ended up paying an electrician $500 to do the wiring, then I did the plumbing by myself.  It cost me a little more than $2k all in (after the $300 tax credit).  It's much easier than you think. 

This is what I did too. The electrician wired the 240v circuit and I did the plumbing. The circuit was originally a 10 gauge 120v appliance circuit, which meant using the 15a water heater (only the 30a water heater was available so I replaced the heater elements). It was a fun weekend project.

Unfortunately, that left one shared appliance circuit for the washer and dryer. That's still "to code" -- if the dryer is gas. To replace the gas dryer with a heat pump, I'll have to run another electrical line outside of the house. It might also mean a sub-panel. Grrr.*

I'll start with replacing the gas oven this summer. There's already a 240v connection.

The other structure on the property, a rental, will be much easier as it's a pier and beam. It also has a much larger panel.


* Maybe a multiwire branch circuit? I'd still be confined to 20a total on the 10 gauge.

Syonyk

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #98 on: April 23, 2022, 09:37:44 PM »
I’m still on the fence about what to do with our aging-but-still-functional oil-fuel boiler. I’d love to get rid of it entirely but with heat pumps it gets relegated to extreme-cold use only, plus emergency heat as we’ve got a generator switch which exclusively powers the boiler via a tiny 2k portable Honda generator.

Just leave it in the system, and set things up as dual fuel.  It won't wear out any time soon with infrequent use, and the backup power capability is worth a decent amount as the power grids start collapsing...

Glenstache

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #99 on: April 23, 2022, 11:17:18 PM »
PTF  to keep me motivated on the changes in my home and rental.