Author Topic: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner  (Read 37030 times)

nereo

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #350 on: June 13, 2023, 06:56:16 AM »
Yes, but on the other hand the electricity generation fades over time and the terminal value of solar is $0.
Yes, but the question is over what timescales? Current PVs typically lose 5-10% of their peak generation over the first decade, and then a total of 10-15% over the next 25 years. Generation is still typically >75% after three decades, at which point a whole bunch of related questions come in (roof replacement for roof-mount, vastly improved newer panels, battery storage). Left alone, a modern PV will keep pushing out power half a century later.

I see no reason why the terminal value of solar should hit $0 in less than three decades. Even today, 25 year old panels being removed/replaced hold some resale value - particularly for off-grid / trickle charger type setups where max production is far less important than just keeping small batteries on equipment charged in the field. 

RWD

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #351 on: June 13, 2023, 07:28:57 AM »
For people who have worked with a solar installer company did they want to come out and see your house right away or were initial negotiations via e-mail/phone? We just closed on a new house but won't be moving in until late next month and I was wondering if it would be better to get the ball rolling even before we move in.

nereo

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #352 on: June 13, 2023, 08:11:06 AM »
For people who have worked with a solar installer company did they want to come out and see your house right away or were initial negotiations via e-mail/phone? We just closed on a new house but won't be moving in until late next month and I was wondering if it would be better to get the ball rolling even before we move in.

We've dealt with three different companies on two different properties - all wanted to have a 'virtual consult' and have us answer a short questionnaire before they would come out.  Reading through the questions it was obvious that they were designed for people who knew very little about how PVs or residential electricity in general worked. It was particularly frustrating during this last round, when I kept telling them this was part of a new construction project and they kept saying things like "please send us a photo of your circuit breaker or fused box" and "based on satellite data of your property and roofline orientation..."  Neither the roof nor the panel existed, and we had already scheduled a substantial service upgrade (from 80A to 200A, with an additional 32 breaker slots).

Once I got an actual person to come out to the property it went much smoother, but it was still most salesman than electrician. For example I knew the diameter and runs of conduit needed; at one point he tried to tell me they might need to run a new 2" diameter pipe because my existing 1.5" service entrance (now completely empty after the re-wire) "might not be big enough". WTF??


RWD

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #353 on: June 13, 2023, 11:50:55 AM »
For people who have worked with a solar installer company did they want to come out and see your house right away or were initial negotiations via e-mail/phone? We just closed on a new house but won't be moving in until late next month and I was wondering if it would be better to get the ball rolling even before we move in.

We've dealt with three different companies on two different properties - all wanted to have a 'virtual consult' and have us answer a short questionnaire before they would come out.  Reading through the questions it was obvious that they were designed for people who knew very little about how PVs or residential electricity in general worked. It was particularly frustrating during this last round, when I kept telling them this was part of a new construction project and they kept saying things like "please send us a photo of your circuit breaker or fused box" and "based on satellite data of your property and roofline orientation..."  Neither the roof nor the panel existed, and we had already scheduled a substantial service upgrade (from 80A to 200A, with an additional 32 breaker slots).

Once I got an actual person to come out to the property it went much smoother, but it was still most salesman than electrician. For example I knew the diameter and runs of conduit needed; at one point he tried to tell me they might need to run a new 2" diameter pipe because my existing 1.5" service entrance (now completely empty after the re-wire) "might not be big enough". WTF??

Thanks for the info. Sounds like it might be best to wait until we move to reach out.

LD_TAndK

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #354 on: June 23, 2023, 06:10:53 AM »
Fed up with the oil majors this morning. Completely expectedly, they've been reneging plans to cut gas production but still talking about hitting net zero in TWENTY SEVEN years with dubious technologies like carbon capture (which they could also back out of).

I've been taking a wait and see approach to buying an electric car, hoping the technology matures and I don't have to deal with being an early adopter. Meanwhile I'm spending about $3.20 on gasoline a day on average, or about $1150 annually. It's like I'm donating to a cause that's directly opposed to my beliefs, and actively working to subvert them. If I was donating $3.20 a day to the opposing political party, I'd find a way to stop it, immediately.

So, I need to get serious about ditching my gas car, despite any inconveniences. Within the next 12 months

rockeTree

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #355 on: June 23, 2023, 06:24:21 AM »
Thanks! Were they relatively low drama about the process?

Yes they were very straightforward, no big sales pitch, forthright with pricing and design. Quick to respond to emails and accurately estimated the install timeline.

Not a peep back from them alas. Hopefully because they are very busy! My partner and I broke our Energy Sage account because we were independently looking at stuff and they won't let you have two accounts for the same address, have to get it straightened out.

nereo

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #356 on: June 23, 2023, 06:25:25 AM »

I've been taking a wait and see approach to buying an electric car, hoping the technology matures and I don't have to deal with being an early adopter. Meanwhile I'm spending about $3.20 on gasoline a day on average, or about $1150 annually. It's like I'm donating to a cause that's directly opposed to my beliefs, and actively working to subvert them. If I was donating $3.20 a day to the opposing political party, I'd find a way to stop it, immediately.

So, I need to get serious about ditching my gas car, despite any inconveniences. Within the next 12 months

Serious question - at what point would you consider buying an EV no longer part of being an "early adopter"?  I ask because I have similar conversations with members of my family who see EVs as "too new" with an underdeveloped charging network.  FIL in particular always points to articles about how great some new, not-yet-mass-produced battery tech will be in "a few more years".

I get that ~98% of vehicles currently on the road in the US still have an ICE engine, but we've also had a decade+ of mass-produced BEVs and two decades of popular hybrids like the Prius. The charging network still seems very region-dependent and isn't as ubiquitous as petrol-stations, but for most EV users it's largely a non-issue for their use. Something like 70% of all publicly available L2 and L3 chargers have been installed in the last 2 years, and it looks like that number will more than double in the next 12 months in my region of New England, so I suspect a lot of this is a perception issue from the way things were as recently as 2021 - but may not reflect the current status of things (though broken chargers are more of a thing lately - perhaps because they have seen an order of magnitude more use?)

...FWIW I've had some issues myself with our EV- - all related to manufacturing recalls and repairs, but I'm not convinced they are more frequent than similar late-model ICE vehicles (which I've also had issues with in the last 5 years).

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #357 on: June 23, 2023, 06:30:41 AM »
Fed up with the oil majors this morning. Completely expectedly, they've been reneging plans to cut gas production but still talking about hitting net zero in TWENTY SEVEN years with dubious technologies like carbon capture (which they could also back out of).

I've been taking a wait and see approach to buying an electric car, hoping the technology matures and I don't have to deal with being an early adopter. Meanwhile I'm spending about $3.20 on gasoline a day on average, or about $1150 annually. It's like I'm donating to a cause that's directly opposed to my beliefs, and actively working to subvert them. If I was donating $3.20 a day to the opposing political party, I'd find a way to stop it, immediately.

So, I need to get serious about ditching my gas car, despite any inconveniences. Within the next 12 months


"They" appear to be Shell, not "the oil majors", unless there are others who were forecasting production cuts.  Keep in mind, if you are moving toward electric because of petrol prices that production cuts would likely have RAISED your prices further.


The majors are grappling with the transition.  They want to provide affordable energy while figuring out the tech challenges on many fronts with renewables.

Raenia

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #358 on: June 23, 2023, 06:45:53 AM »
Those who already have EVs, how have repairs been? I think my major hesitation at this point is, can the local auto shop in walking distance to my house work on it? Or will I be stuck waiting hours in a dealership farther from home every time I need an annual inspection or minor repair? Currently car repairs aren't that much of a hassle, I just arrange to WFH that day, drop it off in the morning, walk home, and work my normal hours until it's ready to pick up. Having to drive further away to a dealership or specialist, wait while they're working, and pay dealer prices for every repair would be a big dent in my week.

Charging I'm sure we could figure out, it's not like we roadtrip across rural areas or camp in national parks, and range is becoming less of a concern as well, but I worry about repairs. Tesla in particular I've not heard good things, but maybe others are better.

nereo

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #359 on: June 23, 2023, 07:13:10 AM »
Those who already have EVs, how have repairs been? I think my major hesitation at this point is, can the local auto shop in walking distance to my house work on it? Or will I be stuck waiting hours in a dealership farther from home every time I need an annual inspection or minor repair? Currently car repairs aren't that much of a hassle, I just arrange to WFH that day, drop it off in the morning, walk home, and work my normal hours until it's ready to pick up. Having to drive further away to a dealership or specialist, wait while they're working, and pay dealer prices for every repair would be a big dent in my week.


First, the scheduled maintenance is much less frequent and much less involved.  On our BEV they recommend a scheduled maintenance every 10k miles, but those at 10k, 30k, 50k, 70k and 90k are nothing more than "check battery/inspect tires/obtain diagonstic readings".  Any competent mech with a scanner can do that. Even the "20k sevigings (20k, 40k, 60k, 80k, 100k)" are pretty minimal - checking brakes, suspension and steering, battery cooling, plus some servicing of high-voltage parts.  With the exception of the "high-voltage parts" any neighborhood mechanic can do those other aspects. The standard servicing is so minimal that an appointment can take 20 minutes.

It's the 'high-voltage components" that many mechanics have less familiarity with - though that's changing. Pretty much everyone in the automotive service industry realizes that EVs will be increasingly common and in five years a not-insignificant number of cars on the road will be EVs, and most are preparing for the change by getting up to speed on the differences (in the not-to-distant-future mechanics will be more like electricians and computer techs and less with fluids and combustion/compression and exhaust).

AlanStache

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #360 on: June 23, 2023, 07:29:34 AM »
nereo - maybe its like where we were with TVs, computers and cell phones some years ago where every year had notable improvements and flat or decreasing prices.  At some point your FIL just needs to decide he wants a new TV and goes and gets what is available knowing that if he waited a year he would have got more for less but had to wait a years.  Maybe FIL just needs to see multiple charging stations around where he drives to internalize that they exist?

broken chargers - maybe partly a bit of they are still new tech and not as robust as they will be eventually and no one takes a picture of a broken gas pump. 

Raenia

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #361 on: June 23, 2023, 07:44:39 AM »
Those who already have EVs, how have repairs been? I think my major hesitation at this point is, can the local auto shop in walking distance to my house work on it? Or will I be stuck waiting hours in a dealership farther from home every time I need an annual inspection or minor repair? Currently car repairs aren't that much of a hassle, I just arrange to WFH that day, drop it off in the morning, walk home, and work my normal hours until it's ready to pick up. Having to drive further away to a dealership or specialist, wait while they're working, and pay dealer prices for every repair would be a big dent in my week.


First, the scheduled maintenance is much less frequent and much less involved.  On our BEV they recommend a scheduled maintenance every 10k miles, but those at 10k, 30k, 50k, 70k and 90k are nothing more than "check battery/inspect tires/obtain diagonstic readings".  Any competent mech with a scanner can do that. Even the "20k sevigings (20k, 40k, 60k, 80k, 100k)" are pretty minimal - checking brakes, suspension and steering, battery cooling, plus some servicing of high-voltage parts.  With the exception of the "high-voltage parts" any neighborhood mechanic can do those other aspects. The standard servicing is so minimal that an appointment can take 20 minutes.

It's the 'high-voltage components" that many mechanics have less familiarity with - though that's changing. Pretty much everyone in the automotive service industry realizes that EVs will be increasingly common and in five years a not-insignificant number of cars on the road will be EVs, and most are preparing for the change by getting up to speed on the differences (in the not-to-distant-future mechanics will be more like electricians and computer techs and less with fluids and combustion/compression and exhaust).

Thanks! Though it's less the scheduled maintenance I'm worried about, and more the random stuff that needs diagnostics, like "it makes a grinding noise when I turn left" or "on cold days there's a rattle in the dashboard, but it goes away when the car warms up" type things. That and the required PA annual inspections, I don't know if the protocol for those is different on EVs.

LD_TAndK

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #362 on: June 23, 2023, 07:48:54 AM »


"They" appear to be Shell, not "the oil majors", unless there are others who were forecasting production cuts.  Keep in mind, if you are moving toward electric because of petrol prices that production cuts would likely have RAISED your prices further.


The majors are grappling with the transition.  They want to provide affordable energy while figuring out the tech challenges on many fronts with renewables.

BP also recently walked back pledges. Exxon dropped algae fuels (which was B.S. green washing from the start). Others haven't pledged anything at all or only pledged to be carbon neutral by 2050.

They aren't "grappling with the transition", they've been actively obstructing the transition and trying to make fossil fuels business as usual for the foreseeable future.

RWD

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #363 on: June 23, 2023, 08:17:21 AM »
Those who already have EVs, how have repairs been? I think my major hesitation at this point is, can the local auto shop in walking distance to my house work on it? Or will I be stuck waiting hours in a dealership farther from home every time I need an annual inspection or minor repair? Currently car repairs aren't that much of a hassle, I just arrange to WFH that day, drop it off in the morning, walk home, and work my normal hours until it's ready to pick up. Having to drive further away to a dealership or specialist, wait while they're working, and pay dealer prices for every repair would be a big dent in my week.

Charging I'm sure we could figure out, it's not like we roadtrip across rural areas or camp in national parks, and range is becoming less of a concern as well, but I worry about repairs. Tesla in particular I've not heard good things, but maybe others are better.

The nearest dealer when we purchased our EV was 500 miles away (just now one has opened at half the distance). We're 1.4 years into ownership and have taken it in for service/repairs just once (dead fob remote and insurance-covered damage). You'd have to ask your local shop what work they'll do on an EV. In theory they should be able to at least do anything that isn't related to the drivetrain/batteries. And in time that will be doable for independent shops too (otherwise they'll go out of business).

NorCal

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #364 on: June 24, 2023, 10:47:37 AM »
Those who already have EVs, how have repairs been? I think my major hesitation at this point is, can the local auto shop in walking distance to my house work on it? Or will I be stuck waiting hours in a dealership farther from home every time I need an annual inspection or minor repair? Currently car repairs aren't that much of a hassle, I just arrange to WFH that day, drop it off in the morning, walk home, and work my normal hours until it's ready to pick up. Having to drive further away to a dealership or specialist, wait while they're working, and pay dealer prices for every repair would be a big dent in my week.

Charging I'm sure we could figure out, it's not like we roadtrip across rural areas or camp in national parks, and range is becoming less of a concern as well, but I worry about repairs. Tesla in particular I've not heard good things, but maybe others are better.

I remember seeing a study (I think it was Consumer Reports, but I don't remember for sure) that annual maintenance on an EV is roughly half of what you pay for an ICE vehicle.  This seems reasonable based on my Tesla experience.

But maintenance and repairs is a bit different.  There's nothing in the drive train to fail or need maintenance barring a manufacturing defect.  No oil changes.  No transmission fluid.  Even your brakes will likely last 100k miles using regenerative braking.  Although you probably will go through tires faster because the go pedal is a lot more fun.

The common maintenance issues are things like the small motors that control the door handles or damaged/defective trim pieces.  You end up overpaying for these, as you pretty much have to take it to the Tesla service center.  Although many of these failures are covered by warranty, and seem pretty rare.  Body work can be more expensive too, as there's only a subset of shops that can do Tesla body work and parts are marked up.

But for the vast majority of people, maintenance is nearly zero.  You just have to add windshield washer fluid and rotate the tires.

My only real complaint is the lack of a spare tire. 

My maintenance has been effectively zero.  My wife had a flat tire that turned into a tow due to the lack of a spare (and we didn't have time to deal with it as she was prepping for surgery at the time).  We're also going to have some minor bodywork because an idiot backed into us in a parking lot.  Price TBD. 

I'd say to use 50% of your ICE repair budget for EV planning purposes.  But it's not unlikely that your repair costs will be nearly $0.

I think the complaints about Tesla are vastly overstated, but it doesn't mean they aren't real.  I know zero people IRL that have the Tesla issues talked about online.  Look up how far away the nearest Tesla Service Center is from you.  That may be relevant.  They also send out mobile service vehicles for some issues, although I've never had to use that.

I would do a vetting on non-Tesla EV dealers.  A lot of these dealers may have a shop, but only have one (if any) technician certified to work on EV platforms.  You'd also likely be stuck using the dealer service on non-Tesla EV's for the time being.  I suspect that Tesla service might be slightly more reliable than the non-Tesla EV market, unless you find a dealer that has a number of technicians with EV expertise. 

Bottom line, I wouldn't worry about it too much.  You'll absolutely spend a lot less time dealing with routine maintenance, and likely spend very little time dealing with broken stuff.  You just have to beware that you're locked into a proprietary service network regardless of which brand you choose.

NorCal

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #365 on: June 24, 2023, 10:58:31 AM »

I've been taking a wait and see approach to buying an electric car, hoping the technology matures and I don't have to deal with being an early adopter. Meanwhile I'm spending about $3.20 on gasoline a day on average, or about $1150 annually. It's like I'm donating to a cause that's directly opposed to my beliefs, and actively working to subvert them. If I was donating $3.20 a day to the opposing political party, I'd find a way to stop it, immediately.

So, I need to get serious about ditching my gas car, despite any inconveniences. Within the next 12 months

Serious question - at what point would you consider buying an EV no longer part of being an "early adopter"?  I ask because I have similar conversations with members of my family who see EVs as "too new" with an underdeveloped charging network.  FIL in particular always points to articles about how great some new, not-yet-mass-produced battery tech will be in "a few more years".

I get that ~98% of vehicles currently on the road in the US still have an ICE engine, but we've also had a decade+ of mass-produced BEVs and two decades of popular hybrids like the Prius. The charging network still seems very region-dependent and isn't as ubiquitous as petrol-stations, but for most EV users it's largely a non-issue for their use. Something like 70% of all publicly available L2 and L3 chargers have been installed in the last 2 years, and it looks like that number will more than double in the next 12 months in my region of New England, so I suspect a lot of this is a perception issue from the way things were as recently as 2021 - but may not reflect the current status of things (though broken chargers are more of a thing lately - perhaps because they have seen an order of magnitude more use?)

...FWIW I've had some issues myself with our EV- - all related to manufacturing recalls and repairs, but I'm not convinced they are more frequent than similar late-model ICE vehicles (which I've also had issues with in the last 5 years).

I would say those going with Tesla are no longer "early adopters".  They have a national charging network that simply works.  They've eliminated most every friction point.  And they're selling nearly 2M cars this year.  That's mass market.

I will say the "early adopter" label for non-Tesla's goes away as soon as charging becomes easy and reliable.  The rest of it is pretty much taken care of.

This could be fairly soon for Ford, GM, and Rivian once they gain access to the Supercharger network (presuming a good execution on the rollout).  Possibly a few more years for the CCS holdouts. 

Those waiting on battery tech are going to be waiting a while.  The path from science project to an implementation in a niche and high-end EV is 10-15 years.  Add another 5-7 years before it's available in the mass market.  There are some great new battery technologies under development, but they will be slow to arrive and expensive when they do. 

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #366 on: July 02, 2023, 09:05:19 PM »
We moved into a condo four years ago in which all of our utilities, save the shared hot water heater which runs on natural gas, are electric. When our condo building (a renovated 1930s elementary school) was renovated all appliances were energy star-rated electrical. All lights are LEDs.

Our local electrical utility gets its energy primarily from resource-derived fuel. We basically get our energy from burning our trash. The boilers were converted many years ago from coal to natural gas. Wind power is our next highest energy source. This is followed (in much smaller amounts) by solar. The city does have a solar farm, which we invested a few hundred bucks in, but mostly to support something we really believe in. Payback is probably about twenty years.

Reducing our square footage to 1300 square feet has probably made the biggest difference in our energy usage.

Of course, since we share greenspace among 30 neighbors, mowing and lawn care is handled by a subcontractor that uses ICEs. We have planted additional native trees and added landscaping to try to clean up groundwater run off. I have been actively involved in these efforts and am proposing -next- that we plant ground covers and flowers in a small part of our hellstrips to do away with some turf. It will be a largely symbolic project, but my experience is that when small steps are taken it inspires others to do the same in the neighborhood.

Transportation is our next big thing to tackle. We have two cars, but have decreased our miles driven substantially. Our oldest car is a Honda that gets driven less than 3000 miles per year. In total, we drive about 7000 miles per year. We are intrigued by hybrids and EVs, but have been in no hurry to replace our cars. We walk and take the bus most days of the week, especially for in town trips and errands. We save up errands and try to do them at the same time, together, in our Subaru.

Living in a condo with a shared parking situation places some constraints on electrical charging options for EVs. Our city bus system has several hybrids and just added some EVs to the fleet. I often think that this is a more cost effective and realistic mode of transport to replace our second car when the time comes.

Food miles is an area we haven't really tackled yet. I maintain an 800 square foot community garden plot, which supplies lots of veggies during the summer months, but we don't have the freezer capacity to do much preservation. We buy most of our meat from the university's meat lab, which we walk to. But still, most of our food is conventional with all the packaging and food miles that entails.

Next up - I'm starting a vermicomposting system in my garage to recycle my veggie scraps.

One of the hardest things to do living in a communal setting as we do is to see the waste that some folks generate, as well as the money they invest in gas guzzling cars and toys. We complain privately, but try to steer clear of sanctimony when we're with them. I suppose that's human nature. We realize that people won't be influenced by what we say, but perhaps by our example. And sometimes, we sneak these things in (planting trees and hellstrips) and they're so beautiful that we don't even have to get into the benefits.



 

rockeTree

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #367 on: August 23, 2023, 12:10:51 PM »
At the solar research state where energy sage calls me to ask what the holdup is every week. But still waiting on a couple details/quotes on that and and the new roof end! It's a lot of moving parts.

I have reached out to the folks at Celestial, mentioned above, but they do not call back! So it goes.

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #368 on: August 24, 2023, 05:11:59 PM »
I just switched to an electric chainsaw, but I use it to buck up wood for burning. So not an ideal activity for this thread.

I got frustrated with the gas chainsaw  e cause it wouldn’t run.

GilesMM

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #369 on: August 24, 2023, 05:27:55 PM »
I just switched to an electric chainsaw, but I use it to buck up wood for burning. So not an ideal activity for this thread.

I got frustrated with the gas chainsaw  e cause it wouldn’t run.


I have used a Ryobi electric for three years and it is fabulous.  Plenty of torque for sawing up trees and limbs up to about 6-8" diameter.  My arms give out around the same time the battery dies but I do have a second battery.  I love that is clean, zero maintenance for the motor, and extremely safe - no kickback ever.

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #370 on: August 24, 2023, 11:29:17 PM »
I just switched to an electric chainsaw, but I use it to buck up wood for burning. So not an ideal activity for this thread.

I got frustrated with the gas chainsaw  e cause it wouldn’t run.
Poor gas chainsaw performance is often because they are not running ethanol free gas. The gas makes a big difference. I do a lot of trail work with chainsaws, and the new generations of e saws are amazing up to about a 16 or 18 inch bar. The new Stihl battery saws are amazing. For big logs and big days far from vehicles it is hard to beat the energy density of gas, but the electric saws are definitely the future. That and the drive to anywhere I'm doing trail work generally far outstrips the gas burned in the saw. (side note: I did make sure to get a saw that has the most modern electronic fuel mixture control I could get to make the emissions less-bad.).

LD_TAndK

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #371 on: August 26, 2023, 04:11:35 AM »
I started with an all electric chainsaw setup. I'd carry an Ego 18" chainsaw with three 5.0 Ah batteries into the woods to maintain trails. I've had two battery failures and a saw failure. Ego was good about replacing these under warranty. The issue is when I'm an hour out into the woods, with other volunteers, and we all drove dozens of miles to get there, and my saw shits the bed, it's a massive waste of resources.

I've used the Ego weed whacker for years and it works very well, no battery issues, and far superior to a gas weed whacker. However the Ego chainsaw is just too high of a power draw so it seems to burn through batteries and circuit boards.

So I bought a refurbished husqvarna 440 for less than the price of a single 5.0 Ah ego battery. I buy the 50:1 premix ethanol free fuel, and it's running great. The gas tank size is 8 oz, and it lasts as long as two 5.0 Ah batteries. At the rate I was destroying batteries I think this might be the greener choice for now.

On the #StopBurningStuff note, I swapped my full gas sedan for a PHEV sedan and expect to burn 200 fewer gallons of gas per year. My PHEV gets charged with my excess solar panel generation.


nereo

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #372 on: August 26, 2023, 04:41:21 AM »
Ok, after many frustrating months of inaction we are pushing forward with our plans to “StopBurningStuff” in a major (and very labor intensive) way this fall. 

It started with a plan to replace our 28 year old boiler heated by fuel oil with heat pump(s). As we planned it’s replacement the project has ballooned to include removal of the boiler-fed hot water heater (necessary) with a hot water heat pump.  And, since we will be running the coolant lines for the heat pump along the gable end of our house we are replacing the siding on that end (overdue) and replacing a barely functional single pane window with a triple pane which meets modern egress requirements and meets northern climate energy standards.

…and of course anytime one removes siding is an excellent opportunity to air seal and add exterior insulation, and as it so happens my neighbor overbought 3” Rockwool comfortboard so that end will be getting new house wrap and insulation before installing siding (with an air gap) all prior to the heat pump installers who will be putting in a 3 ton multi zone ducted heat pump.

Order of operations looks something like this:
  • Remove existing siding and window
  • install house wrap, window buck and new window
  • install 3” mineral wool with 3” strapping and cor-a-vent
  • stain, then install new cedar shake siding
  • install hot water heat pump & disconnect existing water heater
  • installers come to do the heat pump, branched unit and ductwork
  • remove baseboard register in spare time, patch walls and add baseboard trim

Except the heat pump all work will be done by us. Hoping to spend two weekends in September preparing for the heat pump install, plus another day to install the new hot water heat pump and remove the old unit. It’s going to be very busy…

Sanitary Stache

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #373 on: August 26, 2023, 06:58:56 AM »
Wow @nereo ! That sounds like a lot of work. It would probably take me a whole day just to set of staging to take the side off the gable end of my house. Then demo siding, install house wrap, insulation, strapping, and shingles… A Window. I don’t know how to do those things correctly so probably more than a day each to keep getting it wrong.
I’d be taking two weeks and not getting the whole thing done. Good luck. I am already impressed with your ambition. If you pull it off let us know!


Sanitary Stache

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #374 on: August 26, 2023, 07:02:35 AM »
I started with an all electric chainsaw setup. I'd carry an Ego 18" chainsaw with three 5.0 Ah batteries into the woods to maintain trails. I've had two battery failures and a saw failure. Ego was good about replacing these under warranty. The issue is when I'm an hour out into the woods, with other volunteers, and we all drove dozens of miles to get there, and my saw shits the bed, it's a massive waste of resources.

I've used the Ego weed whacker for years and it works very well, no battery issues, and far superior to a gas weed whacker. However the Ego chainsaw is just too high of a power draw so it seems to burn through batteries and circuit boards.

So I bought a refurbished husqvarna 440 for less than the price of a single 5.0 Ah ego battery. I buy the 50:1 premix ethanol free fuel, and it's running great. The gas tank size is 8 oz, and it lasts as long as two 5.0 Ah batteries. At the rate I was destroying batteries I think this might be the greener choice for now.

On the #StopBurningStuff note, I swapped my full gas sedan for a PHEV sedan and expect to burn 200 fewer gallons of gas per year. My PHEV gets charged with my excess solar panel generation.

Thanks for sharing that info. I got the go 16” with one 4AH battery. I have used the full battery twice so far to buck up a tree dropped in my neighbors bank. Once the battery is done I push the bucked up logs up the hill, wheel barrow then home, and call it a day DW accepts that the battery needs to charge and I get to take a cold shower and relax for a bit.

I hope the light duty use doesn’t bring up the battery failure issues you experienced. A has chain saw, and the knowledge on how to maintain it do seem like the more environmentally responsible choice for your application.

LD_TAndK

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #375 on: August 27, 2023, 03:37:27 AM »
...
I hope the light duty use doesn’t bring up the battery failure issues you experienced
...

It'll probably work great for your use case, I don't think light use will cause battery failure. My other Ego tools haven't had any issues. Especially if you only occasionally need a chainsaw you won't have the issue of trying to start a gas chainsaw that's been sitting for months.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2023, 03:43:35 AM by LD_TAndK »

EchoStache

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #376 on: August 27, 2023, 05:25:36 PM »
10.53 kW solar installed.  The majority of our suppliers electricity comes from fossil fuels.  So ~13MW/year of clean energy in place of stuff burned.

Sold our gas stove and switched to induction.  Net cost is reasonable after the sale of the used gas stove and rebates.  Although probably negligible savings in terms of gas saved, the energy used for cooking is now not only electric, but solar.

Regardless of the economics, it was worth it to us for indoor air quality. 

Wife and I commute(together) in EV....so again, solar powered.  No gas.
Daughter commutes in PHEV which covers her daily commute.  No gas.
Electric weed eater.
Electric leaf blower.

Remaining:
Gas push mower.
Natural gas heat.

These last two aren't as easy.  Good electric mowers are ~$700.  Hard to justify with a perfectly good gas mower that will probably only sell for $100.  Also, will probably be paying for lawn car a lot in the future.

Gas heat is pretty cheap for us.  Switching to heat pump would save about $500/year in gas, but not a net savings as that cost would be at least partially offset by electric cost for heat.  Huge expense with a very small net benefit.  Maybe I will research DIY geothermal.   I think the massive efficiency improvement for both heating and cooling will be required for it to make sense, and the massive cost savings of DIY.  Then, solar=100% of energy needs.  Damn, that would be sexy.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2023, 05:28:15 PM by EchoStache »

NorCal

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #377 on: August 27, 2023, 07:49:28 PM »
10.53 kW solar installed.  The majority of our suppliers electricity comes from fossil fuels.  So ~13MW/year of clean energy in place of stuff burned.

Sold our gas stove and switched to induction.  Net cost is reasonable after the sale of the used gas stove and rebates.  Although probably negligible savings in terms of gas saved, the energy used for cooking is now not only electric, but solar.

Regardless of the economics, it was worth it to us for indoor air quality. 

Wife and I commute(together) in EV....so again, solar powered.  No gas.
Daughter commutes in PHEV which covers her daily commute.  No gas.
Electric weed eater.
Electric leaf blower.

Remaining:
Gas push mower.
Natural gas heat.

These last two aren't as easy.  Good electric mowers are ~$700.  Hard to justify with a perfectly good gas mower that will probably only sell for $100.  Also, will probably be paying for lawn car a lot in the future.

Gas heat is pretty cheap for us.  Switching to heat pump would save about $500/year in gas, but not a net savings as that cost would be at least partially offset by electric cost for heat.  Huge expense with a very small net benefit.  Maybe I will research DIY geothermal.   I think the massive efficiency improvement for both heating and cooling will be required for it to make sense, and the massive cost savings of DIY.  Then, solar=100% of energy needs.  Damn, that would be sexy.

Might be worth looking at a reel mower if your lawn isn't that big.  They're pretty affordable and I'm happy with mine.  It's even simpler than electric.

Having done the heat pump, I'm glad I did.  Operating costs are pretty comparable to gas here in CO.  You could consider it as either slightly more expensive or slightly less expensive to operate depending on what your gas price assumption are. 

With the new incentives, installation costs are lower than a new AC, but still expensive.  It's worth doing when your AC is getting old, but before it fails.  Install teams are way backed up right now.  I have a friend that's been living without AC for a month because they're waiting for the installers that actually know heat pumps. 


GilesMM

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #378 on: August 28, 2023, 06:22:29 AM »
10.53 kW solar installed.  The majority of our suppliers electricity comes from fossil fuels.  So ~13MW/year of clean energy in place of stuff burned.

Sold our gas stove and switched to induction.  Net cost is reasonable after the sale of the used gas stove and rebates.  Although probably negligible savings in terms of gas saved, the energy used for cooking is now not only electric, but solar.

Regardless of the economics, it was worth it to us for indoor air quality. 

Wife and I commute(together) in EV....so again, solar powered.  No gas.
Daughter commutes in PHEV which covers her daily commute.  No gas.
Electric weed eater.
Electric leaf blower.

Remaining:
Gas push mower.
Natural gas heat.

These last two aren't as easy.  Good electric mowers are ~$700.  Hard to justify with a perfectly good gas mower that will probably only sell for $100.  Also, will probably be paying for lawn car a lot in the future.

Gas heat is pretty cheap for us.  Switching to heat pump would save about $500/year in gas, but not a net savings as that cost would be at least partially offset by electric cost for heat.  Huge expense with a very small net benefit.  Maybe I will research DIY geothermal.   I think the massive efficiency improvement for both heating and cooling will be required for it to make sense, and the massive cost savings of DIY.  Then, solar=100% of energy needs.  Damn, that would be sexy.


I picked up lightly used Ryobi electric mower off Craigslist for $100.  No maintenance whatsoever.  No fumes.  Less noise.  Or, get native plants and reduce/eliminate your grass area.


Not sure why you decry the electricity cost for a heat pump if you have solar? 

SmashYourSmartPhone

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #379 on: August 28, 2023, 12:25:29 PM »
Especially if you only occasionally need a chainsaw you won't have the issue of trying to start a gas chainsaw that's been sitting for months.

Run only ethanol free gas in it, and when you're done, drain the tank and run it dry.  Shouldn't have any trouble if you follow those steps.

I think electric chainsaws are fine for "homeowner use around the property" - and are certainly convenient.  But as soon as the phrase "into the woods" escapes your lips regarding a chainsaw, get a good gasser and treat it well.  The battery ones simply don't have the performance or, as noted, the reliability needed for that.  They also are less safe than a gas chainsaw - they run a lower chain speed and far higher torque, and you will find warnings on various chaps that they may not stop an electric chainsaw.  The drive characteristics are different enough that chaps designed to foul a gas chainsaw blade may not stop the electric one.

And there is no guarantee that a gasser won't have trouble in the woods, but it seems far less likely when well maintained.  There's simply not a lot to go wrong with a two stroke chainsaw.

As far as solar cost and heat pumps, perhaps the solar install was not designed to produce enough excess power to cover the heat pump's use.

EchoStache

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #380 on: August 29, 2023, 04:21:46 PM »
10.53 kW solar installed.  The majority of our suppliers electricity comes from fossil fuels.  So ~13MW/year of clean energy in place of stuff burned.

Sold our gas stove and switched to induction.  Net cost is reasonable after the sale of the used gas stove and rebates.  Although probably negligible savings in terms of gas saved, the energy used for cooking is now not only electric, but solar.

Regardless of the economics, it was worth it to us for indoor air quality. 

Wife and I commute(together) in EV....so again, solar powered.  No gas.
Daughter commutes in PHEV which covers her daily commute.  No gas.
Electric weed eater.
Electric leaf blower.

Remaining:
Gas push mower.
Natural gas heat.

These last two aren't as easy.  Good electric mowers are ~$700.  Hard to justify with a perfectly good gas mower that will probably only sell for $100.  Also, will probably be paying for lawn car a lot in the future.

Gas heat is pretty cheap for us.  Switching to heat pump would save about $500/year in gas, but not a net savings as that cost would be at least partially offset by electric cost for heat.  Huge expense with a very small net benefit.  Maybe I will research DIY geothermal.   I think the massive efficiency improvement for both heating and cooling will be required for it to make sense, and the massive cost savings of DIY.  Then, solar=100% of energy needs.  Damn, that would be sexy.


I picked up lightly used Ryobi electric mower off Craigslist for $100.  No maintenance whatsoever.  No fumes.  Less noise.  Or, get native plants and reduce/eliminate your grass area.


Not sure why you decry the electricity cost for a heat pump if you have solar?

Solar production may is not enough to support electricity for heating.  Gaining efficiency on AC(i.e 13 SEER to 20 SEER) would help free up some electricity consumption though, so it's not a lost cause entirely.  AFAIK, the big state funded IRA rebates on heat pumps(i.e. $8,000) haven't kicked in yet, so I figure I have a year to mull things over and perhaps monitor energy usage/research geothermal.

rockeTree

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #381 on: September 25, 2023, 03:26:37 PM »
Got the aging roof done and signed the solar contact. Now in the queue!

In my territory you can’t size for more than 110% of your average load, so the system is smaller than it would otherwise be. And when we get off gas heating it will be undersized for our use I expect. Will have to see how you get permission to expand.  Waiting on batteries for the price to come down/savings to recover a bit.

EchoStache

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #382 on: September 25, 2023, 03:45:59 PM »
Got the aging roof done and signed the solar contact. Now in the queue!

In my territory you can’t size for more than 110% of your average load, so the system is smaller than it would otherwise be. And when we get off gas heating it will be undersized for our use I expect. Will have to see how you get permission to expand.  Waiting on batteries for the price to come down/savings to recover a bit.

If you would prefer a larger system to accommodate electric heat, I wonder if there is a way for you to appeal the 110% rule and get an exception for a larger system.  Surely one customer producing 3,000 extra kW/year won't crash the grid?

NorCal

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #383 on: September 25, 2023, 03:47:01 PM »
Got the aging roof done and signed the solar contact. Now in the queue!

In my territory you can’t size for more than 110% of your average load, so the system is smaller than it would otherwise be. And when we get off gas heating it will be undersized for our use I expect. Will have to see how you get permission to expand.  Waiting on batteries for the price to come down/savings to recover a bit.

I suspect you'll find the system will be oversized a bit more than you think.  Most installers come in with conservative estimates on how much it will actually produce. 

You'll probably also find that it won't make sense to expand to fully cover electric heat once you get that.  A lot of project cost is eaten up in marketing, permitting and soft costs as opposed to the actual costs of panels.  But being ~90% covered is probably a better financial call than being 110% covered. 

As for me, I'm debating how completionist I want to be with the "stop burning stuff" aspect.  Do you think one of these is necessary to replace the hydrocarbon powered alternative?

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07KFQVPTW/?coliid=I3ELO3JXKSYAUI&colid=9SHWTBKDFQPK&psc=1&ref_=list_c_wl_gv_ov_lig_pi_dp

I jest.  Sort of. 

RWD

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #384 on: September 25, 2023, 03:59:42 PM »
We also just signed a contract for solar! We're putting in about 16 kW of panels and 20 kWh of batteries. If all goes well they'll go up in May.

SmashYourSmartPhone

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #385 on: September 26, 2023, 11:01:39 AM »
What are the $/W rates people are paying for new contracts, before incentives?  Have they gotten less absurd lately?

Do you think one of these is necessary to replace the hydrocarbon powered alternative?

If you're not burning stuff, what do you need a lighter for?  Those are quite fun to play with, though!

Realistically, that sort of lighter is worse for emissions than a small butane lighter anyway.  Far more complexity goes into it, for a shorter service life than a basic refillable quartz fired lighter and the recycleable metal can to refill with.

rockeTree

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #386 on: September 26, 2023, 11:05:00 AM »
Guess it depends on how much you smoke NorCal! OTOH whatever you replace that zippo with seems like you use it to set things on fire, so you'll always only be mostly there.

The 110% percent is so the PSC could live with net metering as best as I can tell. They don't want the utility writing you a big check with ratepayer dollars. It will be fine. 6.6kW here we come!

rockeTree

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #387 on: September 26, 2023, 11:11:05 AM »
What are the $/W rates people are paying for new contracts, before incentives?  Have they gotten less absurd lately?


About $2.95/w. Quotes were all over the map, one over $4. It's a small system so that bumped it up a bit I suspect.

SmashYourSmartPhone

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #388 on: September 26, 2023, 11:46:09 AM »
That's still high.  Better than some, though, as you've noticed.  Hard to believe solar companies are still quoting out at $4/W, but I suppose there are people who can be convinced to finance that based on the range of lies they're told.

I don't find many professions less reputable than the scummier end of used car sales, but solar salespeople have managed it.

Price out your materials.  Add a generous amount for conduit, wiring, etc.  See what it works out to.

rockeTree

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #389 on: September 26, 2023, 11:52:34 AM »
I hear that, but I am also paying for them to deal with the supply chain and the tax man and the state PSC and the city permitting office and the utility and insuring the folks on ladders and a bunch of other stuff that would take me away from my day job a lot more than my day job wants! With the various credits it will still pay off long before EOL.

Financing offers (and all-in-with-new-roof offers) were outrageously pricey. Just paying for it up front here.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2023, 11:55:15 AM by rockeTree »

SmashYourSmartPhone

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #390 on: September 26, 2023, 12:06:01 PM »
shrug

It's your $10k.

rockeTree

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #391 on: September 26, 2023, 12:27:05 PM »
Only less, because I am not going to get wholesale prices for supplies, and less, because the taxpayer is going to pick up over a third of sticker price, inflated amount and appropriate amount alike, and less, because I would have to get licensed to install it or pay a licensed electrician to install it... if it made sense to be my own project manager I would have considered it, but it does not.

SmashYourSmartPhone

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #392 on: September 26, 2023, 12:46:45 PM »
You're not allowed to do electrical work on your owned primary residence?  Huh.  I thought that was pretty standard.

rockeTree

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #393 on: September 26, 2023, 02:27:56 PM »
Have to provide an electrical contractor’s license number with the interconnection agreement ¯\_(ツ)_/¯  Maybe I could talk them out of it by passing an inspection but maybe not, and oh look that’s another tedious admin task.

At any rate even if I could I do not have the skills and getting them would have non-trivial costs. I am happy to wire an outlet and take my chances on screwing up the parts or install. Less so on a pricey micro inverter and connections.

RWD

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #394 on: September 26, 2023, 03:23:27 PM »
$2.72/W for our contract (solar portion). After incentives it's $1.84/W.

NorCal

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #395 on: September 28, 2023, 12:46:55 PM »
Have to provide an electrical contractor’s license number with the interconnection agreement ¯\_(ツ)_/¯  Maybe I could talk them out of it by passing an inspection but maybe not, and oh look that’s another tedious admin task.

At any rate even if I could I do not have the skills and getting them would have non-trivial costs. I am happy to wire an outlet and take my chances on screwing up the parts or install. Less so on a pricey micro inverter and connections.

Here's some info on current installed costs.  It looks like ~$4/W is right around the median price these days.

https://cleantechnica.com/2023/09/28/updated-report-data-illustrate-distributed-solar-pricing-design-trends/

SmashYourSmartPhone

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #396 on: September 28, 2023, 01:31:45 PM »
Here's some info on current installed costs.  It looks like ~$4/W is right around the median price these days.

"People are still getting screwed like none other on solar by lying sack of shit solar salesdrones."  Not news.  Used car salesmen are more reputable than solar salesmen.

https://time.com/6317339/

Leased solar systems fail all the time, and nobody seems to be willing to repair them.  Most of the sales "deals" are borderline scams.  And when something does fail, good luck getting someone out to do anything to it.

DIY is a pain, certainly, but at least you know how to work on the system afterwards and can keep it operational.

GilesMM

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #397 on: September 28, 2023, 10:54:34 PM »
Have to provide an electrical contractor’s license number with the interconnection agreement ¯\_(ツ)_/¯  Maybe I could talk them out of it by passing an inspection but maybe not, and oh look that’s another tedious admin task.

At any rate even if I could I do not have the skills and getting them would have non-trivial costs. I am happy to wire an outlet and take my chances on screwing up the parts or install. Less so on a pricey micro inverter and connections.

Here's some info on current installed costs.  It looks like ~$4/W is right around the median price these days.

https://cleantechnica.com/2023/09/28/updated-report-data-illustrate-distributed-solar-pricing-design-trends/


Not sure I trust that report. Other sources seem to have the median closer to $3/w.  e.g. https://www.solar.com/learn/solar-panel-cost/


I paid $2.84/w in 2021 including a large ground mount rack.  My post tax cost was $1.83/w.  Those prices seemed about average then.

GilesMM

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #398 on: September 28, 2023, 10:56:31 PM »
Here's some info on current installed costs.  It looks like ~$4/W is right around the median price these days.

"People are still getting screwed like none other on solar by lying sack of shit solar salesdrones."  Not news.  Used car salesmen are more reputable than solar salesmen.

https://time.com/6317339/

Leased solar systems fail all the time, and nobody seems to be willing to repair them.  Most of the sales "deals" are borderline scams.  And when something does fail, good luck getting someone out to do anything to it.

DIY is a pain, certainly, but at least you know how to work on the system afterwards and can keep it operational.


We had an inverter fail last month. The vendor picked up the problem on their monitoring software before I did (who looks every day?), diagnosed it remotely with the inverter manufacturer, ordered the replacement and came out and installed it the next week.  Couldn't have been easier.

Chaplin

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #399 on: November 02, 2023, 09:55:52 PM »
I've checked-in with my wife occasionally for 20+ years on whether we could go down to one car. I've always thought we could make it work, although I would probably be making the most changes since it would be my initiative. This year we agreed that we could do it thanks to a few things: local bike infrastructure is great, we converted her bike to an e-bike, we have car-share options nearby, we could add a cargo bike for groceries and almost all errands needing to carry stuff, etc.

In theory it should have been a slam-dunk a few years ago, but change isn't always easy. Our two cars have been doing fewer and fewer km every year. The ICE is under 2000km/year and the EV is doing about 12,000km/year (except when I did that cross-country road-trip...). The main issue is that she hasn't wanted to ever be left without a vehicle so it's not the distance it drives, it's just about it being available. We decided to try just letting the insurance on the ICE lapse and see how it goes, and that happened yesterday. We could insure it again in a matter of hours if we really needed to, so it's almost like it's available on fairly short notice. I pretty much bike everywhere in town regardless of the weather or time of day, but trips (like the MMM Moab meetup) have been when I've used the EV. I hope that the next step is selling the ICE (or both and replacing them with something a single better choice) and joining a car-share. Thanks to being FIRE'ed I'm looking at options to attend Moab 2024 with a car at all.

Our "stop burning stuff" trajectory would take a big step forward at that point, although 2000km/year is relatively low. The last item would be our propane fireplace insert. That's our backup heat in case of a prolonged power outage, but we do use it occasionally for ambiance or fast heat when it's unusually cold (maybe one or two weeks per year). Fixing some insulation and windows would reduce the need for it.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!