#StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner

[Car Jack]

So an update from me, you know, the guy who takes into account where electricity comes from and uses the Tesla calculator to figure out that his Crosstrek costs significantly less than a Model 3 per mile.

Well, things change.

Two major things have come about for me and my region.  First, my gas discounts have all but dried up.  Back when I last posted, my supermarket (Stop & Shop) would run periodic promos where buying a Visa gift card would get me triple gas points.  What's that mean dollar wise?  Well, I spend about $6 for activation of a Visa gift card.  Stop & Shop gives me 3 times the points or $1.50 per gallon discount for doing this.  So at the gas station back then, my average gas cost was 88 cents.  Now, my Crosstrek 6 speed manual all wheel drive gets on average now about 30 mpg.  So I was looking at 2.9 cents per mile.  Now, I'm seeing that a model 3 uses about 0.34 kWHr per mile.  My electricity costs 20 cents per kWHr, so that Tesla cost me 6.8 cents to go that mile.

But now, with the Stop & Shop discounts dried up, I only get the Shell 5 cents off.  I've left off the credit card discounts which this quarter on my Citi Sears card are 10%.  Ignoring those, gas instead of 88 cents for me is $4.79 as of yesterday.  So cost is around 5 times what it used to be or 15 cents a mile in my Crosstrek.  Electricity went up 10%, so 22 cents a kWHr so the Tesla costs about 7.5 cents a mile.  EV now wins.

I actually started looking at EVs.  I drove a Kia EV6 AWD yesterday.  Compared with the Model S I drove, I found it vastly superior in quality, fit and finish and most important to me, ease of use.  With little help from the sales person, I was able to drive the thing, adjust the HVAC stuff, regen amount, radio on a short test drive.  Without the sales person actually doing all of this in the model S, I could do none of this while paying attention to the road.  The Kia is half the price of a model S. 

Now the big roadblock to me is that with an injured back that I need to take care of, I'm not getting in a Bolt or Leaf or Mini.  It's got to be more mid sized or bigger with a relatively compliant ride.  The S and Kia meet this.  I'm sure the new Cadillac opening orders tomorrow would beat these easily.  But the price tag is just hitting me in the face.  $60k to $100k doesn't sit right with me.  The most I've ever spent on a brand new car is $32k, which is tied with a 98 Audi and an 03 Wrangler unlimited.  So spending pretty much double that or more is a tough sell.  Can I afford it?  Easily.  But my life has been very much Boglehead geared and even when I owned a racecar, I got free track time by instructing and the car was a light (1600 pounds) Honda CRX former SCCA racecar I bought from the original builder for $4k.  Cost for me was gas and a set of tires a year.  Anyways, way off topic.  I guess I'd have to think real hard about getting an EV, but I am considering it.  I can buy a lot of gas for $60k.

Of course, a set of solar panels on the roof could potentially help.  In my state, installation of a system is free because the state pays 20 years worth of electricity up front.  But having fought with roof leaks and incompetent roofers for decades, that isn't something I'd want to do.

[RWD]

But now, with the Stop & Shop discounts dried up, I only get the Shell 5 cents off.  I've left off the credit card discounts which this quarter on my Citi Sears card are 10%.  Ignoring those, gas instead of 88 cents for me is $4.79 as of yesterday.  So cost is around 5 times what it used to be or 15 cents a mile in my Crosstrek.  Electricity went up 10%, so 22 cents a kWHr so the Tesla costs about 7.5 cents a mile.  EV now wins.

There are significant maintenance savings with an EV as well.

[AccidentialMustache]

There are significant maintenance savings with an EV as well.

Unfortunately some manufacturers are going tesla-wannabe and, well, it could be going better. When it isn't going better, you're forced to drive a gas car instead (loaner or not).

Not that I'd trade the EV for a gasser, but I might consider trading the EV for a different EV if this keeps up.

It's too bad because it is a fantastic car... when it works and there aren't any issues. Like carplay disconnecting or going zombie. Or glass that needs re-glued. Or possibly issues that might turn into a recall with the included charger (which makes me wonder if we should switch to using it, in case it is a use-based failure, rather than our existing EVSE), or the high voltage junction box. Or the passenger door that doesn't seem to be willing to unlock/open even with the fob present (but the rear passenger door will!).

[NorCal]

There are significant maintenance savings with an EV as well.

Unfortunately some manufacturers are going tesla-wannabe and, well, it could be going better. When it isn't going better, you're forced to drive a gas car instead (loaner or not).

Not that I'd trade the EV for a gasser, but I might consider trading the EV for a different EV if this keeps up.

It's too bad because it is a fantastic car... when it works and there aren't any issues. Like carplay disconnecting or going zombie. Or glass that needs re-glued. Or possibly issues that might turn into a recall with the included charger (which makes me wonder if we should switch to using it, in case it is a use-based failure, rather than our existing EVSE), or the high voltage junction box. Or the passenger door that doesn't seem to be willing to unlock/open even with the fob present (but the rear passenger door will!).

That's disappointing.

Part of the reason I've ruled out some of the nicer new EV's (Mach-E, EV-6, Ioniq) is fear of "1st model year" type issues.  I expect these will eventually be great cars, but manufacturers are racing to push out very new (to them) products, and are bound to run into a number of problems and inconsistencies.  Due to how different EV's are, I think it's going to take them a couple years to iron out some of these issues. 

As an example, I was really looking into the Mach-E, but a very small subset of users had issues with keeping the 12v battery charged.  While it wasn't a lot of people, it turns out a dead 12v battery was bricking the car a long ways from home.  And one poor guy had a tow truck driver hook up the tow cable to the battery and cause something like $28K in damage.  While the 12v battery problem is likely just a software issue, and the towing issue could be solved with $0.5 stickers labeling the tow hooks, I'd rather they sort those types of issues out before I buy one. 

[RWD]

Meanwhile in Norway
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJtzuZIO-88

[nereo]

Meanwhile in Norway
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJtzuZIO-88

But EVs don't work well in cold environments! (say half the people I meet here in New England). Also, solar too (say the same sorts of people).  Meanwhile Germany and Norway are leading the charge.

[AccidentialMustache]

That's disappointing.

Part of the reason I've ruled out some of the nicer new EV's (Mach-E, EV-6, Ioniq) is fear of "1st model year" type issues.  I expect these will eventually be great cars, but manufacturers are racing to push out very new (to them) products, and are bound to run into a number of problems and inconsistencies.  Due to how different EV's are, I think it's going to take them a couple years to iron out some of these issues. 

As an example, I was really looking into the Mach-E, but a very small subset of users had issues with keeping the 12v battery charged.  While it wasn't a lot of people, it turns out a dead 12v battery was bricking the car a long ways from home.  And one poor guy had a tow truck driver hook up the tow cable to the battery and cause something like $28K in damage.  While the 12v battery problem is likely just a software issue, and the towing issue could be solved with $0.5 stickers labeling the tow hooks, I'd rather they sort those types of issues out before I buy one.

To be honest, it isn't the EV-ness that is giving them the trouble. My problem child is a Mach-E. But it is not the high voltage battery, nor is it the drive motors, the "independent 4-wheel drive" due to one motor per axle, regenerative braking or anything else that is implicitly "different" on an EV than an ICE. All that stuff pretty much... just works.

No the issue is stuff like "we decided to outdo tesla and forgo door handles. Here's your button to push to open it" but the reliability of the push and open is sometimes an issue.

I understand why they went that route. Traditional door handles increase drag. Drag kills range. QED. What I don't understand is why they went the exact route they did. I have to imagine there's alternative (mechanical) designs which would provide the low-drag but classic reliability of a normal door handle with space for a key.

Also, not putting convenient tow points, not giving good 12v battery access to jump it (you have to remove the whole frunk), not giving physical climate controls, etc.

[Syonyk]

To be honest, it isn't the EV-ness that is giving them the trouble. My problem child is a Mach-E. But it is not the high voltage battery, nor is it the drive motors, the "independent 4-wheel drive" due to one motor per axle, regenerative braking or anything else that is implicitly "different" on an EV than an ICE. All that stuff pretty much... just works.
[/'quote]

It's the Tesla model.  Falling apart around a working drivetrain.  Except the stuff that's falling apart means you can't still drive it, because your random, non-automotive-rated laptop CPU is overheating and crashing, leaving you without your gear shifter and such.

I understand why they went that route. Traditional door handles increase drag. Drag kills range. QED. What I don't understand is why they went the exact route they did. I have to imagine there's alternative (mechanical) designs which would provide the low-drag but classic reliability of a normal door handle with space for a key.

The Apple model under Jony Ive: Mechanical systems don't win design awards from your peers.  Even if they work better.  Apple spent 4 years in the Butterfly Keyboard hell, with laptops that had defective keyboards that wouldn't hold up even to the end of warranty, in pursuit of another few tenths of a mm of thin.

A boring, well tested system that "just works" won't attract the attention for being weird that you need to get those elusive design awards - even if the boring system is far better for your actual customers.  Of course, with a modern car, you're still the producer of raw material, because they're all cell connected and doing more big data collection and aggregation than you want any part of...

[nereo]

Can someone explain to me in simple terms why an EV needs a 12v battery that somehow cannot draw power from the larger battery pack?  I know the voltage is different, but why can’t that be addressed with a voltage adapter?

[Syonyk]

Can someone explain to me in simple terms why an EV needs a 12v battery that somehow cannot draw power from the larger battery pack?  I know the voltage is different, but why can’t that be addressed with a voltage adapter?

Because something has to turn the high voltage electronics online.  The computers and literally everything except traction motors and HVAC are 12V parts, because that's what car electrical systems run on.  Window motors, switches, etc.

When you request that an EV start up, the 12V computers sanity check the high voltage pack, and only if they're happy with it do they allow the main contactor to close and provide high voltage to the drivetrain systems - it's the EV version of starting the engine.  Once those are powered, there's a DC-DC converter that will maintain the 12V system, replacing the alternator.

I believe some newer Tesla designs pull 12V straight off the high voltage pack, but it's somewhat unclear as to if this actually meets the requirements regarding "loss of prime mover" backup.  I suppose it depends on how it's implemented.  There's a very reasonable requirement that after the prime mover of a vehicle fails (engine, generally), the car still has lights and such (plus, door locks, instrumentation, etc).

A 12V lead acid battery works just fine for this, as long as you don't go about trying to murder it.  Tesla spent a long time trying to murder it: https://www.sevarg.net/2016/10/30/tesla-model-s-12v-battery-analysis/

[Chaplin]

Following up on what Syonyk said, some earlier EVs tried to eliminate the 12V battery for exactly the reasons you list (why bother with a big battery) but ran into big problems because you need software to initiate the charging process for the high voltage battery and without the 12V battery to run the computers, starting the charge process when fully drained was a problem.

I gather that eventually there will be moves to 24 and then 48V systems to run the electronics, but there's such a good supply chain of reliable 12V batteries that it's not terribly urgent and only provides a small benefit. There are after-market lithium-ion 12V batteries that some people use to replace the lead-acid battery. I don't fully understand why but it sounds like it's a one-time, high-cost replacement that reduces your chances of having a bricked car due to the 12V battery dying. EVs use the 12V battery differently than an ICE and it leads to less predictable failures. An EV, especially with features like mobile access and blue-tooth door-locking (ICEs are adding these too, so it may become a problem for them), is using the 12V battery continuously at a low draw, whereas an ICE needs the battery occasionally, but for a high-draw engine-start. This led to EVs with 12V batteries dying after two or three years with no warning. Better battery monitoring software has allowed EVs to provide more advanced notice of needing to change the 12V battery. Battery monitoring is challenging because the software has only a few data-points to try to infer what's going on in a complex chemical system, but it has improved a lot.

[Syonyk]

I gather that eventually there will be moves to 24 and then 48V systems to run the electronics,

There won't be.  The only good reason for that, reduced starter size and wiring weight, either already doesn't matter (the traction pack in hybrids/PHEVs starts the engine off something other than a legacy 12V starter motor), or is going away soon enough that it won't matter.  You don't even have the wire weight savings to the marker lights, because they're all LED now.

And if you do it, you are now incompatible with literally every aftermarket device for cars.  Not only that, they'll probably fail catastrophically if they're connected.  So, if you want a higher voltage system and want to use the parts bins pieces that everyone uses, you need a 12V rail anyway to run just about everything.

24V or 48V systems for regular cars won't happen.

There are after-market lithium-ion 12V batteries that some people use to replace the lead-acid battery. I don't fully understand why but it sounds like it's a one-time, high-cost replacement that reduces your chances of having a bricked car due to the 12V battery dying.

They're usually used for weight reduction in fair weather cars that don't really need a strong electrical system - think an autocross Miata.  However, they also neatly solve the problem with Tesla's lead acid murdering system, because Tesla used to (I've no idea if they fixed it and I simply don't care anymore) treat their lead acid battery like a lithium pack, with an intern-grade charging algorithm from someone who'd one read a paragraph about battery charging.

The problem with lithium 12V batteries is that they can't be safely charged when cold - below 45F is iffy, below freezing is generally not recommended.  So you end up needing battery heaters in the 12V system, running off the 12V battery, and I don't think it's a good set of solutions to a problem that simply doesn't exist unless you make it exist.

Of course, if you want to run 30W with the car shut down, because you can't get suspend/resume working properly on your computers, congratulations, you've got the problem.

This led to EVs with 12V batteries dying after two or three years with no warning.

The car could warn you about voltage drop if it wanted, but the normal indicator of a bad battery (slow cranking when cooler) doesn't exist anymore.  And presumably it will have false positives that will upset people.

Battery monitoring is challenging because the software has only a few data-points to try to infer what's going on in a complex chemical system, but it has improved a lot.

Lead acid monitoring isn't a hard problem.  It just seems to be hard for "Software First!" companies that believe a car is just a big cell phone.  And that's not just Tesla.

I would like my EV without apps, constant cell connectivity, and behavioral data extraction, TYVM.

===============

I don't need an electric string trimmer, I don't need an electric string trimmer... my gas one works fine... :/

[AccidentialMustache]

My understanding of the 12V thing was largely a crash safety issue? You need to be able to drop the high voltage battery out of the system, so that if first responders are trying to pry the car apart to get you out, they don't get electrocuted by a smashed car that has somehow gotten part of it to 800V.

So if the HVB's default state is disconnected/isolated, you need a way to bring it online when "starting" the car. Given the HVB connects with fancy relays, that means electrical power is needed, so the easy/cheap 12V is the default answer.

[rockeTree]

Can't stress enough that if you are thinking about electrifying gas appliances you should do the electrical upgrades now. It takes a *while* to get things switched, at least around here electricians are busy and if it's not an emergency you might wait a good while to get work done - so if you don't do it before the water or stove fails, unless you are willing to do without that service for weeks you are going to get a like replacement. I had the electricians out to estimate, and then the master electrician wanted to do a site visit (as far as I could tell to train someone else, which is great but time consuming) and then I got on the list for the actual job to get done. It will be close to three months from inquiry to service, and then I can replace appliances at my leisure. Two tons a year of co2-eq, the fast acting kind, from our gas appliances and I am eager to start chipping away at them.

ebike is going great. I think it's safer in traffic than a regular bike; I can jump off the line at an intersection as fast as most cars util we get to like 15 mph so I am clearing it quickly. The rest of the time I leave the assist on the lowest level, which is not much more than making up for the very heavy bike, unless on a big hill, when I crank it up about halfway.

[nereo]

Some progress on our end:
Had a contractor spray foam the decking of our crawlspace (pier and beam foundation) with 4.5” closed cell foam (R-30). I know the ‘preferred method’ would have been to bring the entire crawlspace into the building envelope, but that wasn’t practical given how it was built.

What surprised me was the upfront cost was less than the material cost of foil-faced rigid foam (by quite a bit) and my state offers a 50% rebate which will make the final cost come at just under $1/board foot, including labor.

[RWD]

Nice!

[NorCal]

Updates on my end:

1. My heat-pump is being installed this week.  It's been quite the week to be without AC, and it's a bigger project than I expected.  But I'm excited to get it working.

2. While it's not "stopping burning stuff", I created an electricity budget for myself this year.  Through a combination of energy monitoring and a new whole house fan, I've used about 900kwh less than I expected this year so far.  Just the act of monitoring makes a difference.  This will keep down the size of the solar system I eventually need to install. 

I've previously looked at these energy efficiency projects as one-off things.  Now that I'm finishing some of the bigger items, I can get a picture of an all-in price.  Getting my house off gas and with a solar system large enough to power everything plus an electric car will run me about $40K after incentives.  This includes some "comfort" items like the whole house fan and a humidifier which aren't entirely financially justified.  This will enable me to save about $4,000/yr in utilities and gas.  Since this includes some serious inflation protection on gas and utilities, it's honestly not a bad financial investment.  We could certainly argue about other things being better investments, but I'm very happy with a $4k real annual savings. 

[RWD]

10% ROI is nothing to scoff at

[alsoknownasDean]

I had some R6 (metric) insulation installed in the roof in May and installed a decent seal on the front door. It's now much easier to keep the living room especially warm, although energy usage hasn't changed much.

The quote to get insulation pumped into the walls was about $3400. It'll cost me around $4-6000 (est) to get solar installed after subsidies. Replacing the hot water heater (my last mains gas appliance) will be anything from $2k-5k.

The complicating factor is that I intend to sell this place in maybe 2-3 years. I'll probably do the water heater as I need to replace the concrete on which it lies, but the others probably won't happen (won't see the money back). That money can go into the next place :)

I've pretty much decided that I'm going to keep driving my 18 year old ICE until it's time to replace it, and that'll be with an EV.

[NorCal]

10% ROI is nothing to scoff at

To be fair, I ignored the cost of an EV in my total cost number. So it’s not a true 10% return. But I’d spend some number on a car anyways. So I figured I’d avoid the annoying internet argument by just ignoring it.

But most people think of their stock market returns on a nominal pre-tax basis.  These expense savings are on a real-basis, and there’s never a tax on expense savings.  In fact, there’s a small post FI tax benefit, as you can avoid some level of withdrawals at your highest marginal tax rate.

So I’m fine calling it a good return without trying to shoehorn it into an apples to apples comparison.

[Syonyk]

But most people think of their stock market returns on a nominal pre-tax basis.  These expense savings are on a real-basis, and there’s never a tax on expense savings.  In fact, there’s a small post FI tax benefit, as you can avoid some level of withdrawals at your highest marginal tax rate.

Yeah... that's about how I feel with some of my stuff too.  It's hard to generate an exact "ROI" number all-in when you're doing things like solar, an EV, etc.  But I can damned sure work towards reducing my "minimal monthly spend."  And that's got value regardless of what the market is doing.

[rockeTree]

After much discussion between my electrician and my local utility, they have decided I can't upgrade my service to allow me to #ElectrifyEverything unless I significantly change the layout of the finished basement, which is not feasible right now. They also note that the same issue will come up for a solar roof, and for now say I can't go past replacing the gas stove and water heater. Frustrating but I will do what I can and wait for my family member to not need the basement/different technology/any changes to the code that might allow me to do this more easily.  It does seem like my conversations with them have helped the company figure out how and why people are trying to do this sort of thing, so I will call that a small win.

[Syonyk]

What are the specific issues?  100A service or something?

[rockeTree]

Yeah. There are rules about inside and outside locations that would be permissible for 200A and my narrow townhouse does not have any compliant spaces unless I take out the bedroom down there or brick up a window, neither of which is a good call right now. Evidently the existing 100A would not be allowed to be installed where it is now if it were new, but is not unsafe as is.

All the old rust belt cities are full of attached houses, so I am hopeful that reasonable workarounds will be coming with all the increased incentives for heat pumps and residential solar. Hard to imagine that the answer will be that we can't retrofit these houses at all.

[Syonyk]

Yeah. There are rules about inside and outside locations that would be permissible for 200A and my narrow townhouse does not have any compliant spaces unless I take out the bedroom down there or brick up a window, neither of which is a good call right now. Evidently the existing 100A would not be allowed to be installed where it is now if it were new, but is not unsafe as is.

Ok.  For solar, you're limited to 16A backfeed (3.8kW) on that busbar, but you could upgrade the panel to 200A, just not the service (so a 200A busbar and 100A main disconnect) to free up all the ampacity you want for solar backfeeding.  Obviously, you couldn't go past 100A backfeed, but... that's an awful lot of solar, and you can play DC/AC ratio games there if you want.

A heat pump hot water heater shouldn't be a problem.  They don't pull much, and are worth 10-15% of your electrical use in most homes.

Same would go for mini splits.  They just don't pull that much power.

You might do an NEC Load Calculation, both primary and alternate methods for your house, to see how much headroom you have for things.  The problem is that they're absolute rubbish nonsense, as they assume incandescent lighting, and our 2k sq ft home "needs" 6kW for lighting alone, per those calculations.

I'd look at putting a large panel in, with 100A service, to free up room for solar, though.

[rockeTree]

Oh interesting I didn't know I could upgrade the panel without upgrading the service.

After discussing the age of the AC and the other existing loads (mostly LED, a couple CFLs, some fans and laptops and a tv and kitchen stuff) the master electrician allowed as how I can have the heat pump water heater and induction stove with no changes except running the circuits and a different/additional grounding wire, he just doesn't want me to get any plans for solar PV, a heat pump, or a car charger just yet.

[RWD]

[...] free up all the ampacity

I love that this is an actual word

[nereo]

[...] free up all the ampacity

I love that this is an actual word

Had the same exact thought when I read the post. 

[Syonyk]

Oh interesting I didn't know I could upgrade the panel without upgrading the service.

It's unusual but could be done.  As long as the main breaker remains 100A, nothing from the service side needs change - but you can put a bigger panel in to have more room to backfeed stuff.  I know people doing this locally (one project I'm helping with has done exactly this for one of their subpanels to have the ampacity needed - he replaced a 200A subpanel with a 225A subpanel, but derated the main OCPD on it to 150A).

...he just doesn't want me to get any plans for solar PV, a heat pump, or a car charger just yet.

PV, as noted, upgrade the panel without touching the service and you'll be fine.  For a car charger a 240V/20A circuit (16A continuous, 3.8kW) is entirely sufficient for almost all needs, without being nearly so hard on the electrical service.  The heat pump... yeah, that's starting to make things interesting, especially with an electric stove too.  Though modern mini splits are really quite efficient.

Cramming all of that into a 100A panel would be a challenge, and it's always a bit interesting as to what would be permitted or not by the inspector.

Since it sounds like you can't get rid of gas service entirely with your panel, I'd probably leave the stove alone (I do so like cooking on gas), put a heat pump water heater in, and try to get some mini splits and an EV charger (20A) wedged in.  Or, replace your existing air conditioner with a heat pump and keep the furnace for a dual fuel setup in the winter...

But do the NEC load calculations yourself and see where they come up.  Of course, they're as likely to say you "need" 500A service as anything else...

A neighbor's big solar array is hopefully coming online this week, if inspections go well!  21kW of big A-frame.  And I know some other people getting solar out here too.  Now to ramp up the production numbers of DIY installs!

[rockeTree]

I'm so cheered by this solar possibility. I am not that bothered by the charger - I don't own an EV (other than the bike, of course), though my partner would like to at some point, and I am hopeful that at that time there will be sufficient rapid chargers out in the world that a home one that's more than just plugging it into the existing outside socket won't be needed. And heating was always going to wait a little longer since a) it's expensive and b) the existing unit was nearly new when we moved in and is quite efficient, especially with the whole heavily insulated attached house thing. It's only used at all 3-4 months a year. I just wanted to explain the whole long term plan to the electrician so as to avoid having to redo things because they did not know what the next project was.

Stove is going to happen this year - the existing one is old and was never nice, and I live with a disabled adult who cooks often and sometimes recklessly, so I want the safety and the better indoor air quality. Water heating will happen this year, existing one is old and they fail suddenly and there are very good incentives for the heat pump ones in my area. And now solar can happen when the roof needs replacing, which will be 5-6 years at a guess. In the interval I can work on getting folks to use the clothesline :-)

Ampacity! Delightful.

[eyesonthehorizon]

Stove is going to happen this year - the existing one is old and was never nice, and I live with a disabled adult who cooks often and sometimes recklessly, so I want the safety and the better indoor air quality. Water heating will happen this year, existing one is old and they fail suddenly and there are very good incentives for the heat pump ones in my area. And now solar can happen when the roof needs replacing, which will be 5-6 years at a guess. In the interval I can work on getting folks to use the clothesline :-)

Cheered to read this. Gas was a great upgrade in its day but can't touch induction for speed, cleanliness or pollution, plus it's just as immediately responsive to adjustments with less waste heat lost into the room (although if you want to reverse the latter two somewhat, pull out the cast iron.) You'll love it & have a lot less to worry about with regard to your other household cooks.

I've been holding my breath to see if the decade-long extension of renewable energy tax credits via the Inflation Reduction Act gets through the House. It doesn't drive any of my decisions but I wouldn't mind the discount. Also curious what effect that may have on demand & by extension, pricing.

[AccidentialMustache]

So we hit a year with the (still problem-child, but less problem child) EV.

Mileage before: 8k/yr on a 2009 fit.
Mileage after: 7k/yr on the EV, 2k on the fit.

Not bad. Hopefully next year we look more like 8k/1k, assuming the EV isn't in the shop for a month+ over the year.

Not a ton of other gains to be had here -- already have no gas service to the house, mower is battery electric, no snow blower we do it by hand. Air sealing/insulation/energy audit is on the list. Checking if solar makes sense yet (shade -, tech +, inflation -, standing seam roof +) is also there, but later.

[Sanitary Stache]

Just bought the induction stove last night.  We were stretching to get a handsome version from Bertazzoni, but used 1/3 of what we were saving to jump on an ebike purchase (does buring less calories count as not burning stuff?) So we went with the cheapest option to hold us over until we save up for the fancy version again (maybe we can hold out for an AGA). The propane bill for the stove hasn't dropped below $130 in 4 months.  I can't wait to see how much cooking costs without pilot lights and propane leaks. (I am hoping it is in the $30 range).

I have also been bucking up all our wood this year with a plug in electric chainsaw.  It sucks, but I have always disliked chain sawing -I know it is way easier than hand sawing, but I always wish it was a lightsaber that slide right through the log like a hot knife through cheesecake. Putting up wood also isn't exactly not burning stuff, since we will be burning a lot, but I am not running a two stroke engine.

[NorCal]

Just bought the induction stove last night.  We were stretching to get a handsome version from Bertazzoni, but used 1/3 of what we were saving to jump on an ebike purchase (does buring less calories count as not burning stuff?) So we went with the cheapest option to hold us over until we save up for the fancy version again (maybe we can hold out for an AGA). The propane bill for the stove hasn't dropped below $130 in 4 months.  I can't wait to see how much cooking costs without pilot lights and propane leaks. (I am hoping it is in the $30 range).

I have also been bucking up all our wood this year with a plug in electric chainsaw.  It sucks, but I have always disliked chain sawing -I know it is way easier than hand sawing, but I always wish it was a lightsaber that slide right through the log like a hot knife through cheesecake. Putting up wood also isn't exactly not burning stuff, since we will be burning a lot, but I am not running a two stroke engine.

You should do better than that.  I have a standard electric stove.  My electric stovetop uses about 10kwh / month.  While my home energy monitor doesn't have a good detection on the oven, I'm guessing it's about 30-40kwh / month.

At my billing rates of ~$0.15/kwh, that's about $7/month for cooking.  And induction is more efficient than mine.  Although you may cook more than I do.

[Sanitary Stache]

That would be excellent! I'll see if I can get it together enough to monitor the stove circuit and report back the cooking cost when we make the switch.

[AccidentialMustache]

Our power was 230 last month. That includes the induction stove... and hvac (heat pump) and hot water (resistive) and fridge and chest freezer and dehumidifier and all our PCs and the EV's power (600 mi / 3mi/kwh * 0.12$/kwh = $24 "electrons") and lights and washer and dryer (if we used it, which we probably didn't).

What I'm saying is you'll likely almost not notice the induction stove being added to your electric bill, unless you try to heat the house using your oven, or humidify it by boiling water on the stovetop... literally all day.

[rockeTree]

The IPCC reminds us that the time to act at whatever scale you can is rapidly running out, and further tells us that many fossil based systems will have to be replaced before their end of life to have a chance at 1.5 or close to it. So if you have the means, maybe don't wait for the old system to wear out. I asked for quotes to eliminate the gas hot water today. 120v systems are now coming onto the market to make this easier for gas conversions; leaning towards https://www.phcppros.com/articles/14936-article-headline unless a pro gives me a compelling reason to choose another option for my specific setup.

Well over 4 months later I have a heat pump water heater. Not the one I planned for, but one I am happy enough to have. An absolute hassle I slogged though partly motivated by NorCal's reminder that getting all this figured out with a local company trains them on how to do it next time better and faster for the next customer; I noted the giant rebates coming for these in January and told them to get ready! I think ultimately I had three site visits prior to getting the work actually done, lots of drama scheduling the plumbers and the electricians in the right order, information calls with the utility, limited supply issues, blah blah blah. On to the next!

[Syonyk]

Well over 4 months later I have a heat pump water heater. Not the one I planned for, but one I am happy enough to have.

Which one did you end up with?  That's still on my list, though I have a perfectly well behaved six year old resistive one.

An absolute hassle I slogged though partly motivated by NorCal's reminder that getting all this figured out with a local company trains them on how to do it next time better and faster for the next customer;

I got a quote on a whole house fan, and pointed a local company to one they didn't know existed, but I just can't justify $4k for a whole house fan, when I have my window fan stack running fine.  I might put a variable speed controller on it, but... it works fine, has been working fine for 8 years, and the increased airflow/reduced noise wouldn't make that big a difference anyway in practical operation.  It would just be quieter.

I noted the giant rebates coming for these in January and told them to get ready!

Those are capped at 150% median area income, correct?

======

I mathed out about 5500 lb of CO2 emissions in the last 12 months from fuel burn.  I just don't have a good way to drop that short of spending a couple hundred grand on vehicles... because most of it went through the truck for fairly few miles, but all heavily loaded miles (the F150 Lightning, fully optioned up for tow, would meet my requirements but that's also $100k and you can't get one).  Plus motorcycle miles, which are mostly "solo me into town and back when the car is being used by other people in the household," but at 35-50mpg (depending on bike, 35mpg gets me a sidecar worth of cargo capacity too), I'm not sure dropping $20k on an electric one makes any sense for the few miles I put on annually (2-3k miles a year, split across three bikes, and the kids aren't tall enough to ride on the back yet, so they're in the sidecar half the time).

However, a 21kW solar array up the hill from me just went online (I had a part in the design of that and coordinated the group buy for the panels), so that's generating 100kWh/day or so.

[rockeTree]

At some income level you lose the upfront discount and instead get the refundable tax credit, still a good deal:

https://www.rewiringamerica.org/app/ira-calculator

I got the AO Smith model that just lost its energy star sticker with the updated standards in 2021 (https://www.hotwater.com/support/shpt-50/); I would have preferred the slightly more efficient one that is otherwise identical on that page, but the locals had this one in stock and said that the prices had gone up enough that ordering the fancier one would cost more than the 2022 level of state and federal energy star incentives would save and take six more weeks. They were tired of me and I was tired of them. So you know, this one is going into some house in the area, it's replacing my gas one that is on its last ticking and thunking legs, good enough.

I don't think buying an electric car is top of the list for gains for anyone who doesn't drive say 10k a year or more. Not sure exactly where the cutoff is; likely depends on how your electricity is made. Me I drive less than 2k a year so the aging fit makes more sense than mining a bunch of cobalt to sit in my driveway almost all the time and making the wait time longer for a road warrior who really wants that next all electric chevy. The ebike has affirmed this for me.

We were just under 12k lbs per year of carbon for the household (and cars - zero air travel that year, didn't figure out the numbers for train travel) last time I ran the numbers, natural gas the biggest chunk. So working there for now.

[Syonyk]

At some income level you lose the upfront discount and instead get the refundable tax credit, still a good deal:

Ah, I'd missed that.  I assumed the subsidies just went away past the 150% point based on what I'd read.

The ebike has affirmed this for me.

I really should get some of my ebikes back online.  I've got the old commuter build I could get into town with when solo, and I have a long tail cargo bike frame I keep meaning to turn into a direct drive cruiser, just... 55mph road, and the problem I've had is "I can either build it fast enough to mix it up with traffic properly and have a motorcycle, or keep the speeds down to bicycle and still have traffic speed issues."  Though I can route down the less-commonly-used roads, I suppose.  I'll need to build myself a couple bigger battery packs, or build something around a boost converter to do charging from scrap battery banks that are lower voltage than I'd prefer to ride with.

[rockeTree]

Yeah I don't really want to be on a bicycle going more than about 25 mph, and there are for sure roads where that's not safe. In my case the three places I most often go are slower speed urban journeys and either have slightly roundabout less traveled routes or bike infrastructure - absent that it would not work for me. We are all starting with the lowest hanging fruit we have left I think! A motorcycle is already a lot less gas than a car. And I give a lot of credit for enabling more renewables in your community, that's hard work for others benefit.

[Syonyk]

Yeah I don't really want to be on a bicycle going more than about 25 mph, and there are for sure roads where that's not safe.

That's pretty much the sum of my problem.  I live on a 55mph rural road with basically no shoulders in some areas, and I have to be on this road for a mile or two before I can get over to the other roads that are similar, just with less traffic.  I've biked on them before, and I should probably do so again when there's not much traffic (Sunday mornings, for instance), but I just don't go into town that often (I work from the property).  I could build a 45mph long tail runner... but that's something I'd want to wear motorcycle gear on, and I'm not sure I trust bike hardware sustained at that speed until you get into some of the really stupid off road gear.  My goal is an ebike, not a small e-motorcycle.

We are all starting with the lowest hanging fruit we have left I think! A motorcycle is already a lot less gas than a car.

Not really, my motorcycles use substantially more than the car (being a PHEV, it doesn't use much gas).  And gas is the low hanging fruit, everything else is electric out here.

In the last year:
- 81 gallons of diesel in the truck.  That's around 1000 miles, probably a bit short (towing fuel economy is "worse than usual").  Hauling... big and heavy things.  Most of those miles are with a trailer attached, moving things I can't move any other way (lumber, concrete, cars on trailers, etc).
- 136 gallons in the car, almost entirely for a few thousand miles of road trips to visit family/friends.  That will be trimmed when we get an EV, but until our oldest is driving, there's no point in adding a car, IMO.  We use almost no gas for around town work, and most of that's in the winter (it uses the engine for heat, and range is just shorter in the winter).  We precondition aggressively year round to maximize battery range, though the pack has degraded a bit in the past decade - it's down to about 9.2-9.3kWh usable traction battery vs 10.5 when new.
- 64 gallons through the motorcycles, which I could probably optimize down with ebikes.  But it's hard, as the Urals are how the kids get around, and they're the "second car," for most senses of the word.  We both ride, so if one of us is going somewhere and needs the car, the other can take a Ural with the kids.
- 20 gallons of "property fuel," for my office generator, mowers... mostly the tractor, really.  Driveway plowing in the winter, firebreak cutting in the summer, general utility for moving heavy things around and on occasion towing the kids around in a trailer.

The truck fuel burn would be offset with a high capability EV truck... which doesn't make any sense to pay $100k for right now, given that it's used "a few thousand miles a year, tops," and is in good shape, 115k miles on a '97 F350 with a 7.3 in it.  It's gaining value with time at this point.

Car fuel burn, we could offset with a pure EV, but I don't think the DC fast charging networks are quite where they need to be for that, given our desire to travel the backroads whenever possible.  Boring down the interstate isn't very fun compared to a desert two lane.

Motorcycle use, I could offset perhaps half, but that relates to how willing I am to take an ebike, in the winter, 10+ miles in the dark on 55mph rural roads, and I'm just not particularly OK with that as a general practice.

As for renewables, I'm not sure how far out "I'll help you with the design and you do your own electrical work, and I'll fund bulk panel buys" scales, but clearly at least somewhat further than it has so far.  Which is only my project (15.9kW) and another 21kW up the hill.

[AlanStache]

I've biked on them before, and I should probably do so again when there's not much traffic (Sunday mornings, for instance), but I just don't go into town that often (I work from the property).

From years of cycling I have found that people going to or from church on Sunday morning are the biggest asshole drivers of the week.

[NorCal]

I got a quote on a whole house fan, and pointed a local company to one they didn't know existed, but I just can't justify $4k for a whole house fan, when I have my window fan stack running fine.  I might put a variable speed controller on it, but... it works fine, has been working fine for 8 years, and the increased airflow/reduced noise wouldn't make that big a difference anyway in practical operation.  It would just be quieter.

For what it's worth, you can get a whole house fan for much cheaper than that.  Quietcool sells some of the best ones around, and their largest is $1,750, and I believe they have some for under $1,000. 

I had the largest one put in my house for $2,250 with labor.  But after watching them, it's a very easy DIY project.  You cut a hole in the ceiling between joists with a provided template, strap it in place, and find an existing 120v/15a circuit to wire it in to.  The professionals installed it in about 3 hours.  It would probably be a 1 day project for a competent DIYer.

I recommend them only under the following circumstances:
1. You live in a climate with frequent cool mornings or evenings in the AC season.  You also live in an area where you're comfortable with pulling in the ambient humidity.  So not in Florida.
2. You're the type of person that wakes up earlyish in the morning to open windows and turn it on.
3. There's a higher financial incentive to use them if you have a utility with TOU rates.  It shifts a good amount of usage out of mid-day and into the early morning.

My experience:
1. It was amazing in the early summer when we still had cool mornings.  The days were hot, but not too hot.  I could run it in the mornings, and I didn't even turn on my AC until the last weekend of June.
2. It provided a minimal benefit when we got into the real heat waves.  It would cool the house off a degree or two in the mornings, but the morning air wasn't cool enough to really cool the house down.  It maybe saved me 3-5kWh/day on these days.
3. Now that we're getting temps in the high 80's and slightly cooler mornings, it cuts my AC usage roughly by a third.  I'm now kicking on the AC around 1 or 2 pm in the afternoon, where I previously would turn it on between 10-11am.

On balance, I'm glad I installed it, but just barely.  My guesstimated financial returns (annual energy savings / install cost) put it in the same neighborhood as just installing a few more solar panels.  It would have been a bit better if I DIY installed it.  I mostly appreciate it for helping eliminate a summer temperature balance in our upstairs bedrooms.

[Syonyk]

For what it's worth, you can get a whole house fan for much cheaper than that.  Quietcool sells some of the best ones around, and their largest is $1,750, and I believe they have some for under $1,000. 

If you have an attic, yes.  I've got a vaulted ceiling manufactured, so I don't have an attic at all.  QuietCool has an external plenum one that would work, but they don't sell direct to end users that I can tell (at least for that model), and it was $4k to get it installed through a local dealer who deals with them.

So I'm just using my window vent fans.

https://www.sevarg.net/2015/05/06/house-fan-for-vertical-windows-diy/

2. You're the type of person that wakes up earlyish in the morning to open windows and turn it on.

Oh, we just run those overnight.  It's usually cool enough by the time we go to bed in the shoulder seasons to let them purr away all evening.  The problem is when it gets warmer, they're only marginal at actually cooling the house.  The hope was that more CFM would help cool the structure as opposed to just the air, but... eh, $4k for that is a lot for a marginal gain, and we do have smoke season a lot of years now.

[rockeTree]

At some income level you lose the upfront discount and instead get the refundable tax credit, still a good deal:

https://www.rewiringamerica.org/app/ira-calculator

Updating to note that these tax credits are not refundable, so if you don't have tax liability and have too much income to get the up-front discounts no dice - does seem like most folks will be eligible for at least one of these for upgrades that offer both discounts and tax credits.  Have shared the calculator in a couple places and gotten people excited about new appliances.

[Glenstache]

Finally finished the install of a 3 zone mini split. Other than solar (my calculations show it to be marginal benefit right now due to a small roof area), I'm pretty much at the end of major efficiency gains.  A plan fir the winter is to upgrade the 100amp panel at my rental to 200amp service and then replace the gas water heater and range with electrical and at least run conduit for future ev charging. It doesn't pencil out for me but my l9ng term goal is to move onto that house, so is part of the plan.

[rockeTree]

Nice. And in the meantime I am sure renters will appreciate the upgrade. Not the sort of thing that makes folks sign a lease but the sort of thing that makes them stay.

In still more me me me news (I am bored of my water heater saga and I'm the one enjoying the hot water showers), I went to register the thing and the plumbers appear to have installed neither of the model numbers we discussed but the extremely efficient FPTU. I guess they updated their inventory but not their standard-package paperwork. Go figure. Means I am rebate eligible too, woo hoo!

[NorCal]

Finally finished the install of a 3 zone mini split. Other than solar (my calculations show it to be marginal benefit right now due to a small roof area), I'm pretty much at the end of major efficiency gains.  A plan fir the winter is to upgrade the 100amp panel at my rental to 200amp service and then replace the gas water heater and range with electrical and at least run conduit for future ev charging. It doesn't pencil out for me but my l9ng term goal is to move onto that house, so is part of the plan.

And getting to deduct it on your taxes will be nice.  Have you looked into whether that panel upgrade will qualify for the Inflation Reduction Act rebates?  I know panel upgrades are included, but I never looked to see how rental properties are treated.

[Just Joe]

We're slowly progressing in the same direction as all of you.

I'm mowing several acres with a 50 year old electric lawn tractor. Love the lack of exhaust and low noise. I do nothing to the yard in a year's time but cut and trim it. Currently trimming and leaf blowing with two-cycle machines but I go through less than a quart of fuel in each all season b/c of the way our yard is structured to be low maintenance. I'll go electric eventually but at this point in my history, any batteries in a weed wacker would age out rather than wear out due to lack of use. When the old lawn tractor batteries wear out, I'm planning to DIY upgrade to used lithium.

I do have an electric pole saw now that doubles as a chain saw (pole comes off to reveal a chainsaw handle). I generally run it from the lawn tractor power via an inverter. I could run for days like that on ~25 cents of electricity. I usually trim up the trees along the yard edges in the spring and fall. I can put the tractor in low-low gear and it will toddle along so slowly that I can cut or pickup sticks walking beside it. Easy to reach over and set the throttle to stop if it gets too far ahead. Best yard machine I've ever owned.

Inverter and tractor battery pack are large enough it could power the family room or the fridge overnight+ in a pinch. However our house came with a propane generator. It rarely runs as the grid in our part of town has improved since we've lived here.

Am switching to gas for $$$ reasons. Local propane company (Suburban) is more expensive than everyone else. Last time we were using up the last of the fuel, they delivered more fuel w/o our permission.

New heat pump for upstairs replaced aged a/c unit with electric strip heat. Already can see the savings. $5 installed. When downstairs unit ages out, going to a multi-fuel heat pump. Our weather is mild enough most years that the gas side would run just a handful of days/nights each year.

We sealed some attic access doors. Want to insulate the backs of these doors before cold weather this year. Who uses interior doors as attic access doors? Well, the previous owners did... House is otherwise pretty tight. Did add an air return in the basement to turn over the air there. Much nicer down there. Drier.

Have an propane instant water heater. Will transition to a heat pump water heater eventually. Electric stove now, electric stove after kitchen remodel. Electric laundry already.

Added us to the TVA Green Switch program. 100% Want to pursue DIY ground solar in the future. We have a good spot for it. Much more homework required to see how the numbers work b/c our electricity is very affordable.

Still riding our ebikes. Still love them. Surprised at how well the batteries have aged. Still not enthusiastic about mixing with cars although I have a slow country road route to use to ride to town. I use the most boost when climbing a couple of blind hills with no shoulder that I would avoid if I could. 

Lightweight/medium speed EVs are a new topic for me. Our town's peed limits are 45 mph or slower. Considering eventually purchasing a lightweight EV for town use. In my state they get registered as UTVs. Can't drive them on highways. They are registered as motorcycles and must carry liability insurance. I might replace our aged second car with this EV. I don't need a long distance deluxe vehicle for 10 mile errands. 

My biggest problem with the typical EV right now is the excessive levels of technology. I don't need (or want) all the touchscreens, the touchscreen HVAC controls, the pseudo-self driving safety equipment. I want heat/air, radio and windshield wipers. And knobs. And a lower price.

In a primary vehicle I would want a big battery so my use seldom deep cycled the battery so it would age slower. And for those occasional trips out of town. I still don't see EVs as a travel vehicle - yet.

I've been doing a deep dive on the XBus pickup/bus prototype from Germany. I think this would suit my needs/wants perfectly. And the forecasted price of around $20K works too. The reality is the price will likely be greatly inflated when it arrives, might be subject to the "Chicken Tax" (still in 2022!), and their battery size/range numbers are very optimistic I think. Until I see one in real life, this will remain vaporware.

Our federal government will probably tell me I can't have one. Because safety. But they will allow me to drive any vintage vehicles on the road. Or motorcycles. Or DIY customized vehicles with sketchy alterations. But not an XBus. Land of the Free dont'cha know... 

It is safer than a motorcycle, safer than a vintage vehicle - and I own both. So I'm not worried about the seating position or any lack of safety systems like ABS or airbags. I'm in a small town, not driving through some metro area on a daily basis. If I was doing the metro lifestyle I'd probably want my family in a Stewart & Stevenson LMTV... ;)