Author Topic: Self Imposing Carbon Taxes - Who's With Me?  (Read 3525 times)

Moonwaves

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Re: Self Imposing Carbon Taxes - Who's With Me?
« Reply #50 on: March 05, 2018, 04:43:43 AM »
I'm more in the "only way to do it is don't fly" camp than anything else and it was one of the reasons I moved to Germany. Living on an island, unless you're prepared to sacrifice a lot of holiday time to travelling, the only practical way to get anywhere is to fly. In Germany, I can easily get the train to lots of places. Of course, now that I'm here, friends and family come over to visit, so my moving here has actually resulted in a net increase in flights (well, probably. I suppose there is the chance that if they hadn't been visiting me they might have flown somewhere else).

I generally aim for going to Ireland once a year and then, between weddings, babies, and funerals, actually end up going twice or three times. Last year was the first time I actually just managed to go once. This year for the first time I might actually be in a position to have enough holidays at one time that I can get the train/ferry instead of just having to fly because it's faster. It's a process.

By the way, if you haven't read it yet, I found George Monbiot's "Heat - How we can stop the planet burning" really interesting. It too, is now a bit older (2006) but I read it around 2010 and still felt like I learned a lot.   
« Last Edit: March 05, 2018, 04:46:03 AM by Moonwaves »

Malaysia41

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Re: Self Imposing Carbon Taxes - Who's With Me?
« Reply #51 on: March 05, 2018, 10:02:48 AM »
« Last Edit: March 05, 2018, 12:38:55 PM by Malaysia41 »
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Malaysia41

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Re: Self Imposing Carbon Taxes - Who's With Me?
« Reply #52 on: March 11, 2018, 12:13:56 AM »
I thought some of you might enjoy bits from a text exchange I had with an ex Si Valley co-worker who currently lives in West Virginia. His name for this thread: "LL" - for his self described political philosophy of 'libertarian lite'. We often send each other articles to get the other ones take.  For example, the other week he asked what I thought of the whole Aziz Ansari thing and the metoo movement.

LL has a large home in the WV mountains, a Tesla, and often posts pictures of trips on FB- both for work and with family. 

NOTE: If you'd rather not read the whole exchange, skip to the quotes from him that I've put in bold, then read the end bit.
So a few weeks ago, he sends me a text,

Quote from: LL
Don't know if you saw Rand Paul last night, but I think he did a fair job embarrassing Republicans who ran on fiscal conservatism. Glad he did it. Even Fox & Friends was giving him credit this morning saying this bill in conjunction with tax cuts added twice as much to the debt as Obama's stimulus in 2009 that these sames Republicans railed against -- and that at least Obama had an excuse of the financial melt down.

When I read his text, I thought -ugh. I don't know if you can tell from my posts within this MMM thread, but I'm going through a transition from a news-of-the-day view to a 100,000 ft view where stuff like this - for-profit news 'takes' on how well zingers landed in a speech - well - IDGAF. I was feeling a little punchy when I received that text, and I replied,

Quote from: M41
It doesn’t matter LL. In a world where for-profit corporations deliver our news - cult of personality and show biz artifice will win out. In a system where political influence goes to the highest bidder, and unlimited amounts of money are allowed to be spent on push-polling and disinformation campaigns, , how does it matter if one marginalized libertarian (with insane views about people ‘having healthcare’ cuz they can go to an emergency room (but this is beside the pt)). How does it matter what Rand paul says or that the bootlickers on fox and friends momentarily look up from the boot heel of trump and nod in agreement? I will say that it’s interesting to see how many ostensibly republican politicians are willing to go along with the absolute denigration of our country in order to do the bidding of their donors. And those who stand for actual principle - well - they won’t make a bit of difference until our constitution is amended and systematic democratic processes are established.

But ...it’s getting more and more likely that our generation will see NTHE .

And I’m becoming more convinced that our children are highly likely to experience NTHE even if we don’t. Fucking Scott Pruitt saying global warming may be good?

We are FUCKED.

(Good morning!!)

Quote from: LL
I was going to say you realize I haven't finished my coffee yet, right?
:)

We've since discussed hopium solutions like AI - colonizing Mars, electric cars. Fermi's paradox - the great filter and that AFAIK, it's 95% closed on the human species. The role of capitalism, etc. Back and forth sporadically like this for months.

The other day I sent him this:

Quote from: M41
Oxfam-mb-extreme-carbon-inequality-021215-en.pdf
"Fossil fuel interests declare spending €44m a year on lobbying the EU in Brussels – around €120,000 a day. In the US in 2013, the oil, gas and coal industries spent almost $157m on lobbying – over $430,000 per day, or$24,000 per hour. "

88 people are stealing the future from our kids

Quote from: LL
I really missed getting the feel good morning messages from you.    Seriously thanks for sending. So far just looked at the graphs. Seems I am the problem. What specifically is driving that - cars, air travel, steaks, big house
I’ll read the data, but just curious if there were a few drivers or if was general lifestyle stuff?

I replied with data from the book I recently read by Mike Berners-Lee 'How Bad are Bananas: The Carbon Footprint of everything.  Some examples:

Quote
LA to Barcelona round trip = 3.4tons CO2 per economy class passenger (13.5 tons 1st class)
 A gallon of milk: 12.6 lbs CO2
100g of beef or lamb : about 4 lbs CO2
100g pork: about 2 lbs CO2
switching from the std western diet to vegan diet saves ~1 ton CO2 per year
1kg of cement is 1kg CO2.
The average new built 2 bedroom bungalow: 80 tons CO2
Hectare of deforestation: 500 tons (associated with livestock industry)
Driving 1000 miles in a normal car is 1 ton CO2 (including footprint of building car - not only emissions; emissions are ~half that)
Electric car: depends on how much your power grid relies on fossil fuels

Then I added,
Quote from: M41
DH calls the fossil fuel lobby, their sponsors, and global warming deniers “pedophiles”.  Because they’re screwing our children

Here I found his engagement and curiosity - well - refreshing. You can see why I like discussing shit with LL

Quote from: LL
M41, Thanks for the data. I have a few questions. I’ve heard from you loud and clear we are “fucked.” If all the people (or half the people) like me/us (top 10%) make dramatic changes in their lifestyle does that change anything or has the tipping point been reached? 

On housing if you already have one is it pretty much sunk cost? Meaning is it better to get solar panels and good insulation than abandon it? My Tesla is a 100% coal fueled car at this point, but I am looking to get the aforementioned solar panels and change that.

On the other stuff – air travel, beef and milk – I am a huge contributor to CO2. Frankly, I like all three … a lot. Doesn’t mean I can’t or won’t change my choices, but they would be really big changes. Without cooking all food at home, I am not sure how we could go vegan here. My last work flight to Philadelphia is Monday, but Wednesday I will be flying (destination TBD) with my dad to watch the first round NCAA basketball game. We plan to (hopefully) follow (our team) all the way to the Final Four. In April I am flying to (NE town) with DW, DD and my mother-in-law for DD to visit colleges. In the summer we will fly to west coast to visit schools there as well. Point being it would be a tough thing to tell my mother-in-law you can’t see your daughter again because it puts too much CO2 in the atmosphere. Or telling DD she has to pick a college sight unseen, etc….

Obviously, I am making a point being a bit dramatic. I imagine I am more willing to change than most, but it would be a big deal to do so and would be a real inconvenience. I realize the destruction of all human life is inconvenient as well, but to most anyone one is much closer and has obvious impact where the other is at least father away and with a less certain impact. It is a real dilemma. Asking people not to have a once in a lifetime basketball road trip with you ~80 year-old-dad, etc… those are big asks. Maybe the solution is air travel gets way more expensive via a carbon tax which is used to do CO2 neutralizing things (and would also reduce the number of trips people are willing to take). Any solutions?

You've just witnessed a 1st world human starting to see our collective predicament, and his role in it.

I replied with a few answers. I'd include them but this post is long enough, and I think y'all have witnessed enough of my apoplectic ranting.  No, don't worry, my response to LL wasn't unhinged; it was just a list of staid facts and conclusions - Including this video from carbonbrief about the global carbon budget and where we currently are: https://youtu.be/VbhlWSxcoYg

@sol - do you have a list of trustworthy climate science sources, and/or a list of doubt-manufacturers? I'd like to send this to LL. I've got a semi-list in my head.  For example, I think carbonbrief.org is a good source, IPCC obviously too.  Corby Robertson's 'CO2isgreen' website - obviously not so much. FYI Corby owns ~20 b tons of coal reserves that he picked up for a song in the 80s when non-psychopaths were exiting the market. He's an example of the group of people who DH calls pedophiles. I think of him more of a psychopath. Potato potato.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2018, 01:36:12 AM by Malaysia41 »
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Bicycle_B

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Re: Self Imposing Carbon Taxes - Who's With Me?
« Reply #53 on: March 11, 2018, 10:25:36 PM »
If I don't get the confessions started, the thought of how shamefully weak my current efforts are will stop me from posting on the thread again.  So here goes.

1. "Mustachian-ish" in my profile means "mechanically inept despite half a century of rare attempts, most of which I did not like" and "just doing the not-choose-the-MOST-expensive option" part... got a long way to go on the Stoic and hands-on pieces. 
2. Reviewing my list of This Year's Eco Steps, step 1 is...vague and scary, don't want to change my comfy ways...

Going forward, I will:
1. Look for more opportunities to save on CO2 emissions rather than $ in daily life.
2. Articulate things I already do.
3. Start biking more.
4. Explore possible solar install on house.
5. Work my way through the other home projects that are scheduled before solar.
6. Return to exploring purchase of carbon credits.
7. Explore some of the other options mentioned on this thread.
8. Attempt to reach zero net CO2 emissions going forward by year end.  This goal assumes that I will accept some type of offset at a portion of claimed CO2 offset value, and purchase enough offset to balance out my remaining CO2 emissions.

3. Item 3 in the list is worse because, well, my screen name is aspirational.  As in, I chose it to inspire myself to start bicycling. But after 6 attempts, not really in the bike habit yet.
4. For both daily life and the bike piece, the smart thing to do is bike to the grocery store instead of drive in any cases where the only destination would be the grocery store.  But that comes in conflict with the thing that I just about least want to change:  MUST HAVE DAILY JUNK FOOD FIX and won't buy more than 1 or 2 days of junk food because I'd just eat even more of it.

That's enough confessions for now. 

So ok, since posting the do list, I did avoid 3 junk food trips out of 4 that I would have driven.  Made a batch of pancakes instead of going to buy cookies.  (First pancakes in 30 years.  No milk, either - methane win.   Thanks, internet.)  Scraped through a day of no junk.  Walked to store (1.1 miles each way). 

« Last Edit: March 11, 2018, 10:28:54 PM by Bicycle_B »

palebluedot

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Re: Self Imposing Carbon Taxes - Who's With Me?
« Reply #54 on: March 11, 2018, 10:33:18 PM »
Thanks for sharing Malaysia. Some deep thoughts there.

There's one group of people who raise doubts on AGW I've seen post on Phil Plait's (Bad Astronomy blog) comment section.

https://notalotofpeopleknowthat.wordpress.com/2018/01/19/warmest-year-evah-except-for-the-others/
I'm not skilled enough to sort through their argument but hopefully someone can take their time and point out any flaws.

I like https://skepticalscience.com/ and Katherine Hayhoe's Global Weirding youtube series for a more layman approach. I'll be watching Utopia series soon. I couldn't find it anywhere legit so I had to resort to "other sources".

Malaysia41

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Re: Self Imposing Carbon Taxes - Who's With Me?
« Reply #55 on: March 12, 2018, 02:51:53 AM »
If I don't get the confessions started, the thought of how shamefully weak my current efforts are will stop me from posting on the thread again.  So here goes.

1. "Mustachian-ish" in my profile means "mechanically inept despite half a century of rare attempts, most of which I did not like" and "just doing the not-choose-the-MOST-expensive option" part... got a long way to go on the Stoic and hands-on pieces. 
2. Reviewing my list of This Year's Eco Steps, step 1 is...vague and scary, don't want to change my comfy ways...

Going forward, I will:
1. Look for more opportunities to save on CO2 emissions rather than $ in daily life.
2. Articulate things I already do.
3. Start biking more.
4. Explore possible solar install on house.
5. Work my way through the other home projects that are scheduled before solar.
6. Return to exploring purchase of carbon credits.
7. Explore some of the other options mentioned on this thread.
8. Attempt to reach zero net CO2 emissions going forward by year end.  This goal assumes that I will accept some type of offset at a portion of claimed CO2 offset value, and purchase enough offset to balance out my remaining CO2 emissions.

3. Item 3 in the list is worse because, well, my screen name is aspirational.  As in, I chose it to inspire myself to start bicycling. But after 6 attempts, not really in the bike habit yet.
4. For both daily life and the bike piece, the smart thing to do is bike to the grocery store instead of drive in any cases where the only destination would be the grocery store.  But that comes in conflict with the thing that I just about least want to change:  MUST HAVE DAILY JUNK FOOD FIX and won't buy more than 1 or 2 days of junk food because I'd just eat even more of it.

That's enough confessions for now. 

So ok, since posting the do list, I did avoid 3 junk food trips out of 4 that I would have driven.  Made a batch of pancakes instead of going to buy cookies.  (First pancakes in 30 years.  No milk, either - methane win.   Thanks, internet.)  Scraped through a day of no junk.  Walked to store (1.1 miles each way).

@Bicycle_B maybe it's time to join my other Throw Down the Gauntlet Challenge: Go Plant-Based (Vegan) Diet in 2018

Just thought I'd share since you brought up ongoing issues with junk food.

Thanks for gathering up the courage to confess all here BB! :)
« Last Edit: March 12, 2018, 06:07:24 AM by Malaysia41 »
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Malaysia41

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Re: Self Imposing Carbon Taxes - Who's With Me?
« Reply #56 on: March 12, 2018, 03:13:13 AM »
Thanks for sharing Malaysia. Some deep thoughts there.

There's one group of people who raise doubts on AGW I've seen post on Phil Plait's (Bad Astronomy blog) comment section.

https://notalotofpeopleknowthat.wordpress.com/2018/01/19/warmest-year-evah-except-for-the-others/
I'm not skilled enough to sort through their argument but hopefully someone can take their time and point out any flaws.

I like https://skepticalscience.com/ and Katherine Hayhoe's Global Weirding youtube series for a more layman approach. I'll be watching Utopia series soon. I couldn't find it anywhere legit so I had to resort to "other sources".

I had to resort to some "other sources" for Utopia BBC too.  Not proud of it. 

Funny, I've always avoided skepticalscience.com because I've become acutely skeptical of any organization that claims to be skeptical.  They're everywhere and they're nearly always disingenuous, obtuse dick-wads.  It's most disheartening when these twats bubble up as top links in google searches.

As for the other link - not going there. It's notorious for bullshit.

https://www.factcheck.org/2015/02/nothing-false-about-temperature-data/

I don't go to any laymen sources. Only climate scientists or university research, nasa, noaa, etc. IDGAF how laymen interpret the data, because they're not qualified. We've had enough disinformation propagated by laymen such as Lord Monkton or James Delingpole.

Sorry - I'm not attacking you PBD.  While for most knowledge topics, finding blogs that discuss the issue is informative. However, when it comes to climate change, unfortunately, the internet has been flooded with so much bullshit, it all bubbles up when we're seeking answers. 

This paper explains why:

Drexel University Research Paper on CCCM Funding

CCCM = Climate Change Counter Movement.

It's so disheartening because our kids' future hangs in the balance here. The fossil fuel interest doubt campaign has been successful for way too long.

And I come back to working through the acceptance phase - accepting that we're fucked. I mean, how do we counter a propaganda campaign that is funded by billions of dollars? How? My whole family has been duped by it. All of them. They think I'm pretty much a loony screaming into a megaphone on the street corner. They don't listen to me - because the CCCM has won. And it's continuing unchecked. How do we fight it?

The CCCM is having effect in Europe - but it's overwhelmingly effective in the US. Republicans who speak out on climate change get primaried.

How do we fight the CCCM?

The only thing I can figure is to fix the system - political system. Information system. But those are decades long endeavors. We don't have that much time.

IDK - Maybe Trump is the best thing to happen. Maybe it'll bring on a blue wave in 2018. But I doubt it.  Because billions are being spent by a handful of people to counter progressives from taking office. And the propagandists they employ are highly skilled at using FB, reddit, local news, radio talk shows, and mailer campaigns to insane levels of effectiveness.  Just read up on Cambridge Analytica.  CA may very well be employed by the white house at this point - they were in discussions for a contract at the end of 2017.

How do we fight all this?

The only thing I can think of is starting represent.us groups in every freaking town in America. 

If I lived in the US, I would be starting a chapter right now.  http://volunteer.represent.us/chapters/

Any of you want to start up a chapter, I'll contribute $100 for start up costs. Hey - consider it an extra carbon tax. I'm willing to pay it.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2018, 03:36:06 AM by Malaysia41 »
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Malaysia41

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Re: Self Imposing Carbon Taxes - Who's With Me?
« Reply #57 on: March 12, 2018, 01:30:54 PM »
I'm shaking I'm so angry what my dad sent me. Half angry because he's giving so much weight to the disinformation campaign - the CCCM (Climate Change Counter Movement).  Half because of the actual quotes from an article he read in the WSJ today. 

I posted our email exchange in full. It's not pretty.  I said his political party was on par with Nazis. yeah - I'm out of the will. IDGAF.

Burning Bridges with Dad
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Re: Self Imposing Carbon Taxes - Who's With Me?
« Reply #58 on: March 12, 2018, 06:36:41 PM »

@Bicycle_B maybe it's time to join my other Throw Down the Gauntlet Challenge: Go Plant-Based (Vegan) Diet in 2018

Just thought I'd share since you brought up ongoing issues with junk food.

Thanks for gathering up the courage to confess all here BB! :)

Bought no meat/eggs/dairy/fish for maybe 7 or 8 months a couple years back, but returned after that.  Never a meat fiend anyway, and get "Are you vegetarian?" sometimes from casual observers, but not focused on that part.  My junk food jihad is vs sugar.  The ordinary world is in 1950s grainy black and white, cookies are in vibrant HD color. 

Kyle Schuant

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Re: Self Imposing Carbon Taxes - Who's With Me?
« Reply #59 on: March 12, 2018, 09:02:23 PM »
I posted our email exchange in full. It's not pretty.  I said his political party was on par with Nazis. yeah - I'm out of the will. IDGAF.

Burning Bridges with Dad

Do you believe that this is an issue worth severing all family ties for?

I wonder: have you children of your own? If so, do you think it is possible that you may disagree on political issues in the future, when things we think are ordinary and inoffensive are held to be evil and wrong, and things we think are bad are held to be good?
« Last Edit: March 12, 2018, 09:04:33 PM by Kyle Schuant »
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Re: Self Imposing Carbon Taxes - Who's With Me?
« Reply #60 on: March 12, 2018, 10:26:41 PM »
Photo posted today by a homeless charity I sometimes volunteer for, really like this bit and will try to apply it, especially the section I bolded: "No blame, no reasoning, no argument, just understanding. If you understand, and you show that you understand, you can love, and the situation will change."

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Re: Self Imposing Carbon Taxes - Who's With Me?
« Reply #61 on: March 12, 2018, 11:49:47 PM »
I posted our email exchange in full. It's not pretty.  I said his political party was on par with Nazis. yeah - I'm out of the will. IDGAF.

Burning Bridges with Dad

Do you believe that this is an issue worth severing all family ties for?

I wonder: have you children of your own? If so, do you think it is possible that you may disagree on political issues in the future, when things we think are ordinary and inoffensive are held to be evil and wrong, and things we think are bad are held to be good?

My family and I disagree on political issues all the time. So I not only believe it’s possible, it’s what I practice.

Are you saying global warming is a  political issue? I realize it’s become one, since the rise of the well funded CCCM, but I refuse to regard it as s political issue. It’s science.

Yes I have kids. And I’m terrified for their future. And my dad can go to hell for taking part in stealing from their future.
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Re: Self Imposing Carbon Taxes - Who's With Me?
« Reply #62 on: March 13, 2018, 12:50:36 AM »
Photo posted today by a homeless charity I sometimes volunteer for, really like this bit and will try to apply it, especially the section I bolded: "No blame, no reasoning, no argument, just understanding. If you understand, and you show that you understand, you can love, and the situation will change."

Yeah - you're right of course. How to understand my dad - he was raised by a misogynist drunk who'd been abandoned by his parents as a toddler. My dad's father was angry, sensitive, judgmental, and self-righteous. I never liked my grandfather. Every movement was judged. And yet my dad, and my aunt, still send emails revering their father. 

My dad loves people. He loves strangers. He thinks everyone has a huge heart like he does - well everyone he meets in person. Incredibly, he believes in this big evil liberal conspiracy that hates America, hates liberty, and wants to destroy everything he stands for. And it fuels an anger in him. He believes these people exist, despite never having met any of them. He believes they exist because he tunes into propaganda. It doesn't matter how many times I've fact checked his email forwards, he continues to believe there's this evil liberal conspiracy that hates America.

I've been through so many cycles of feeling annoyed, or even angry at him. Then I pray for his health happiness and prosperity, and work on letting my anger go, and inviting sympathy in.  It's easy to do when we're talking about healthcare, or taxes, or Russia, or even Trump.  I can do that.

And I understand that ecologically - independent of political philosophies - the human race is bound to overshoot, collapse, and either go extinct, or recover with a small population.  We could have averted it, what with our big brains, but given the resources underground, and the nature of man, behavioral biases, etc., we are no smarter than a colony of poo-munching bacteria. I know all this. I've accepted all this.

So I've adopted a policy of not trying to change my family's minds on anything. It hurts too much. Better to do activism with inquiring friends or strangers. In a couple weeks I'll be doing the Cube of Truth in Bologna for example. If I can nudge a few dozen people to take a good hard look at the industrial animal factory farming system, and consider their role in it, that's better than me doing the same with one family member.

So I regret sending that original email. Because I knew I'd hate the answer. I can pray for my dad's health, happiness and prosperity every day. I can sympathize with the hand he was dealt as a kid. I can understand his political views.

But this is not a political issue and it's unforgivable for him to be on the side that is stealing from my son's future. It's almost impossible to reconcile. I don't know that we can visit them this summer. We may need to stay here. Anyway, I don't want to fly.

You'll be happy to know that it was empathy that stopped me sending the subsequent screed that still sits in my drafts folder. There are dozens of similar drafts sitting in that folder from over the past few months. I do have some control.

But he needs to know that the side he's choosing is the side that's killing his grandkids' future. Why? Because it's true. I'm not willing to stay silent on that any longer.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2018, 12:58:58 AM by Malaysia41 »
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Re: Self Imposing Carbon Taxes - Who's With Me?
« Reply #63 on: March 13, 2018, 12:55:57 AM »

@Bicycle_B maybe it's time to join my other Throw Down the Gauntlet Challenge: Go Plant-Based (Vegan) Diet in 2018

Just thought I'd share since you brought up ongoing issues with junk food.

Thanks for gathering up the courage to confess all here BB! :)

Bought no meat/eggs/dairy/fish for maybe 7 or 8 months a couple years back, but returned after that.  Never a meat fiend anyway, and get "Are you vegetarian?" sometimes from casual observers, but not focused on that part.  My junk food jihad is vs sugar.  The ordinary world is in 1950s grainy black and white, cookies are in vibrant HD color.

Sugar.  Yeah - if you're not vigilant, you end up consuming way more than you'd think - especially if you're eating processed foods. 

A friend of mine did a month of zero added sugar.  She inspired me to do the same. Just the exercise in reading labels was a learning experience. It felt great not having sugar.

Have you seen the movie, "That Sugar Film" by the Australian bloke?   I think it's on Amazon Prime, and it may be on Netflix.
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Re: Self Imposing Carbon Taxes - Who's With Me?
« Reply #64 on: March 13, 2018, 12:59:58 AM »
Have any of you read that latest WSJ Opinion section article by the guy at the Manhattan Institute?  What did you think? 
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Kyle Schuant

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Re: Self Imposing Carbon Taxes - Who's With Me?
« Reply #65 on: March 13, 2018, 05:48:46 AM »
Are you saying global warming is a  political issue? I realize it’s become one, since the rise of the well funded CCCM, but I refuse to regard it as s political issue. It’s science.
Climate change is science. What to do about it is a political issue. Do we use laws? Free market? Subsidies? Taxes?

Should Western countries be subject to these laws, but not developing countries, or vice versa? What if the free market wants to build a wind turbine next door? Should wind be subsidised, but not solar? How about "clean coal"? Should we with 30kWh electricity a day available each stop using coal in our country, but export it to developing countries so they can have 1kWh a day? Should there be a carbon tax, and if so what should with do with the revenues?

All these are political questions, and their answers are more reflective of an individual's ideology than science, since the scientific answer is "stop all emissions NOW." Which means disconnecting from the internet and turning off the computer. NOW.

Quote
Yes I have kids. And I’m terrified for their future. And my dad can go to hell for taking part in stealing from their future.
Would you like to do a carbon audit of your family's household with us publicly so that we can point out how you're "stealing from their future", too? We could even invite your dad on, and we could compare relative emissions. After all, are we to judge your carbon emissions from how much you say you care about climate change, or from how much you and your family are actually responsible for?

I'm not Christian, but "judge not, that ye be judged" by the same standards is a good principle.

These are important issues. I am very aware of them. Resource depletion is also an issue, several years ago I wrote an article about it on TheOilDrum.com, "The Freezing Point of Industrial Society." [http://anz.theoildrum.com/node/3228] I wrote other articles about reducing emissions, such as "Just One Tonne." [http://www.bicyclefixation.com/howto.html] So if you really want to go down into the reeds on these issues, we can do that.

But you may just want to think about what you're doing. In a resource-constrained society, family and community ties will be very important. Cross the bridge before you burn it.
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Malaysia41

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Re: Self Imposing Carbon Taxes - Who's With Me?
« Reply #66 on: March 13, 2018, 06:57:13 AM »
Are you saying global warming is a  political issue? I realize it’s become one, since the rise of the well funded CCCM, but I refuse to regard it as s political issue. It’s science.
Climate change is science. What to do about it is a political issue. Do we use laws? Free market? Subsidies? Taxes?

Should Western countries be subject to these laws, but not developing countries, or vice versa? What if the free market wants to build a wind turbine next door? Should wind be subsidised, but not solar? How about "clean coal"? Should we with 30kWh electricity a day available each stop using coal in our country, but export it to developing countries so they can have 1kWh a day? Should there be a carbon tax, and if so what should with do with the revenues?

All these are political questions, and their answers are more reflective of an individual's ideology than science, since the scientific answer is "stop all emissions NOW." Which means disconnecting from the internet and turning off the computer. NOW.

Quote
Yes I have kids. And I’m terrified for their future. And my dad can go to hell for taking part in stealing from their future.
Would you like to do a carbon audit of your family's household with us publicly so that we can point out how you're "stealing from their future", too? We could even invite your dad on, and we could compare relative emissions. After all, are we to judge your carbon emissions from how much you say you care about climate change, or from how much you and your family are actually responsible for?

I'm not Christian, but "judge not, that ye be judged" by the same standards is a good principle.

These are important issues. I am very aware of them. Resource depletion is also an issue, several years ago I wrote an article about it on TheOilDrum.com, "The Freezing Point of Industrial Society." [http://anz.theoildrum.com/node/3228] I wrote other articles about reducing emissions, such as "Just One Tonne." [http://www.bicyclefixation.com/howto.html] So if you really want to go down into the reeds on these issues, we can do that.

But you may just want to think about what you're doing. In a resource-constrained society, family and community ties will be very important. Cross the bridge before you burn it.

Hey Kyle,

Yes - in that sense - policy is political. I agree. And the time to start those policies was decades ago.  Carbon tax - YES. What to do with the funds - buy up all US coal reserves, close down all the coal plants, do what needs to be done to relocate and retrain the employees of the coal industry and spread them out over all of the renewable energy industries that seem to have decent potential for delivering clean energy over the long haul. For example of one of many things we should be doing.

Do we use laws? Yes. Do we use the free market - to a degree, yes. Do we use taxes. yes. Should we use subsidies? Yes.  Should we fund wind not solar? Why would we choose just one? Why not subsidize both, and others? Spread the bets.

Yeah - the details get thorny.  But you've got to at least agree on the science and move forward, even if imperfectly.

But the CCCM has made the science political.  The main source of my frustration - and judgement - is the extent and effectiveness of their doubt campaign.  The thing that kills me is that my family is so taken up in it.  The last sentence my dad quoted to me was,

Quote
" If a projection of climate-change cost ignores adaptation, we can safely ignore it."

^^^ That is chilling.  In other words, 'you can safely ignore this issue altogether'.  And that was in the WSJ.  A lot of people are influenced by that paper. I'm not aware of many people who stopped their subscriptions when Rupert Murdoch bought the WSJ.  And so they don't realize it's a conduit for CCCM propaganda.  I mean - the Manhattan Institute?  FFS. They're notorious for the climate change doubt campaign.

This past few years have seen us figuring out our own C footprints and reducing them as much as possible. We've gone vegan, haven't owned a car in a couple years, bike every where, try to buy local-ish food.  We don't buy clothes unless we need to replace old clothes that can't be mended. We keep the heater low. etc.

Just by living in the western world, and buying food at the grocery store, I don't see how a person can have a footprint under 8-10 tons per year.

Yeah - I'd totally be willing to be put under the microscope. But I think we'll come out a couple tons above that homeless person whose footprint was determined to be 8.5tons a year.  Western infrastructures were built on $20-$60 oil, when they should've been built on like, $600 a barrel oil. So now, there's no escaping having an outsized footprint unless you take to the woods like Ted Kazinsky. But even he biked into town for provisions. So his footprint was non-zero.

Do you agree with me - that just by virtue of buying food at the grocery store, you're locked into multiple tons of CO2 footprint?

What I'm saying is this: it isn't my dad's carbon emissions that anger me. It's my dad's refusal to see the propaganda machine he's tapping into.  Even after I've pointed it out dozens of times.  It's the fact that every time he propagates their messages, like a cog in their system whose only function is to maintain the status quo - the more he's part of the problem.  And I take it personally. Because my son is going to pay dearly for our inaction. And my dad is contributing directly to our inaction.

My friend just posted about flying business class roundtrip from LA to London.  It's like fingernails on chalkboard.

I've got your links loaded in browser.  I've gone into the weeds enough personally, but thanks for the offer. I just read Mike Berners-Lee's How Bad Are Bananas: The Carbon Footprint of Everything.  And I'll read your papers. Thanks for linking them. Do you have something else in mind that I'm missing?

Sorry for the long reply.  My posts could do with a little more succinctness.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2018, 06:59:11 AM by Malaysia41 »
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Bicycle_B

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Re: Self Imposing Carbon Taxes - Who's With Me?
« Reply #67 on: March 13, 2018, 12:16:48 PM »
Sugar.  Yeah - if you're not vigilant, you end up consuming way more than you'd think - especially if you're eating processed foods. 

A friend of mine did a month of zero added sugar.  She inspired me to do the same. Just the exercise in reading labels was a learning experience. It felt great not having sugar.

Have you seen the movie, "That Sugar Film" by the Australian bloke?   I think it's on Amazon Prime, and it may be on Netflix.

No.  For me the issue isn't info.  It's on the craving/addiction spectrum. 

To be clear, quitting junk food is not on my list of eco plans.  Carbon wise, junk food is merely the potential cause of unnecessary driving to the grocery store.  My objective related to step 1, look for ways to generate less carbon daily, is to avoid the junk food driving.  Hence my related actions to date have been cook pancakes instead of buy cookies; do without junk for a day; and walk to the store instead of drive.  As the year progresses, hopefully experiments/attempts of this sort will become habits.  Applause (or mere patience with detailing attempts until the habits form) will be gratefully accepted!    :)
« Last Edit: March 13, 2018, 12:38:44 PM by Bicycle_B »

Malaysia41

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Re: Self Imposing Carbon Taxes - Who's With Me?
« Reply #68 on: March 13, 2018, 12:26:42 PM »
@Kyle Schuant ,

regarding your http://anz.theoildrum.com/node/3228 paper. Interesting way to think through where societies might land after the end of cheap oil. A couple points that struck me:

The breakout of the different economies and the specific $ amounts and affordability of levels of petrol made it easy to visualize what you're talking about.

Your ecotechnic economy for one - it's a nice visualization of a goal.

and for example, this:

The transition is less likely if the fuel prices are mostly due to high taxes, since a tax of more than 100% on anything creates a significant black market for it, which will keep the effective affordability at better level.

It seems high(er) taxes would be useful, but you're arguing they've a practical upper limit that is far south of what is needed to spur transition from a wasteful industrial economy to a ecotechnic economy.  That makes sense.  You'd have to pull off a marketing  coup - convincing everyone of the wisdom of keeping all coal and most oil /nat gas in the ground for future generations if you wanted to stop a black market from developing. It's possible. Unfortunately, the good advertisers are working for fossil fuel interests, and they're firing on all cylindars their campaign of pressing fear buttons in the minds of people with authoritarian outlooks (Lakoff).

Even if there's a practical upper limit, still, I'd like US petrol taxes to be much higher than present day - if nothing else but to trim emissions for now,and make people think before consuming energy. In other words, to cut some of the waste in our wasteful society.

This is all the kind of stuff I'd like our policy makers to be contemplating and planning for.   Even in an ideal world - where everyone agrees on the science - getting to a soft landing is not a simple endeavor.  But by putting it off, we may kill ourselves in the meantime when god knows what precious ecological processes collapse from so much GHG in the air and acidification in the ocean.   You can see why the doubt campaign stresses me out so much. No?

Is it really so strange for me to be upset with family members who are only too happy to stick their heads in the sand at the mere suggestion by propagandists?
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Malaysia41

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Re: Self Imposing Carbon Taxes - Who's With Me?
« Reply #69 on: March 13, 2018, 12:29:06 PM »
Sugar.  Yeah - if you're not vigilant, you end up consuming way more than you'd think - especially if you're eating processed foods. 

A friend of mine did a month of zero added sugar.  She inspired me to do the same. Just the exercise in reading labels was a learning experience. It felt great not having sugar.

Have you seen the movie, "That Sugar Film" by the Australian bloke?   I think it's on Amazon Prime, and it may be on Netflix.

No.  For me the issue isn't info.  It's on the craving/addiction spectrum.

Yeah - I have that too. I'm a big fan of dark chocolate with hazelnuts.   And Valpolicella Superiore.  I'm like a chocoholic. But for booze - and chocolate.
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Bicycle_B

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Re: Self Imposing Carbon Taxes - Who's With Me?
« Reply #70 on: March 13, 2018, 12:39:56 PM »
Sugar.  Yeah - if you're not vigilant, you end up consuming way more than you'd think - especially if you're eating processed foods. 

A friend of mine did a month of zero added sugar.  She inspired me to do the same. Just the exercise in reading labels was a learning experience. It felt great not having sugar.

Have you seen the movie, "That Sugar Film" by the Australian bloke?   I think it's on Amazon Prime, and it may be on Netflix.

No.  For me the issue isn't info.  It's on the craving/addiction spectrum.

Yeah - I have that too. I'm a big fan of dark chocolate with hazelnuts.   And Valpolicella Superiore.  I'm like a chocoholic. But for booze - and chocolate.

Ah, you understand exactly!

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Re: Self Imposing Carbon Taxes - Who's With Me?
« Reply #71 on: March 13, 2018, 02:17:34 PM »
So - just finished reading that oildrum.com article.  Looks like predictions within the article and market evidence since publication suggest that its conclusions are incorrect, as does economic theory. 
http://anz.theoildrum.com/node/3228

I like several points in it, especially the review of societies by energy price and the attempt to predict if and when wasteful industrial societies will change into manual, mixed or ecotechnic.  Fwiw, I agree with its estimates of the border lines between different society types.  Where I think it goes wrong is the statement "machines need fuel", and the assumption that as fossil fuels are used up, fuel will run out.  A more accurate statement is that machines need energy, and fossil fuels will not be replaced as that energy source until some other source is cheaper.

It's awesome that the author has the guts to include predictions.  As a science-and-truth fan, the real test of a theory is whether it has predictive power.  The article, published in 2007, mentions "there are  those who" predict that oil prices will be "$240/barrel almost certainly by 2015."  The author doesn't commit to the $240 price himself, which is a good thing.  Today's price of Brent crude:  $64.47, almost the same as the $64 price from 2006 that is listed in the article itself.   He just says "if demand continues to rise 2.3% annually, demand for oil will be more than 50% higher than supply," leading to a price of $1600 per barrel by 2025.  We're 11 years into his 18 year prediction period.  Do we appear to be trending towards $1600/barrel?

From the viewpoint of climate change, obviously cheap oil is worse, because it's easier to pour tons of CO2 into the atmosphere.  But we're not likely to plunge into a manual or even ecotechnic society as the article describes (one where energy is conserved as a scarce resource).  As the price of renewable energy drops, we're more likely to see a society of increasing global energy abundance with rising percentages of renewable energy sources.  It's just not likely to happen fast enough to prevent heating up the biosphere.  Hence I am still "in" the challenge for this thread.

« Last Edit: March 13, 2018, 02:20:00 PM by Bicycle_B »

Malaysia41

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Re: Self Imposing Carbon Taxes - Who's With Me?
« Reply #72 on: March 13, 2018, 11:53:52 PM »
Quote
.As the price of renewable energy drops, we're more likely to see a society of increasing global energy abundance with rising percentages of renewable energy sources.  It's just not likely to happen fast enough to prevent heating up the biosphere.  Hence I am still "in" the challenge fo

Exactly. I fear that when if/when we wait to get to the pt where oil prices become 10-20x current day, we’ll have by then an atmosphere that won’t be habitable. So I’m still in too ;)
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Re: Self Imposing Carbon Taxes - Who's With Me?
« Reply #73 on: March 15, 2018, 04:33:34 PM »
As promised, a quick runthrough on previous moves to save CO2:

1.  As 20something, bought 1600 sq ft 4-bedroom house, rented out the 3 spare bedrooms.  Maintained this most of the past 20-odd years.  So, 400 sq ft / person => more efficiency (compared to US average of 750), less carbon.  Since we're near the city center, also less transport pollution, shorter commutes.  Ongoing.
2.  Signed up to pay fixed rate (initially a higher rate) for household electricity in order to finance construction of renewable energy facilities, mostly wind generators.  Program described our electricity as 100% renewable, though in practice it's mixed with everyone else's.  Program lasted 10 years.
3.  Recently signed up for the new version of that program.  Rates fluctuate, but still we assist in renewables generation.  City as a whole has risen to 30% renewable, with 55% targeted for 2025.
4.  Increased insulation on house.
5.  Added roof vents to allow hot air to escape attic.  Helpful in summer-dominated climate.
6.  After finding MMM, started consciously doing several errands per drive.  Ongoing.
7.  After a Cowspiracy viewing, 8 months or so of no dairy/meat/eggs/fish.  Not planning a return yet, unsure about ever.
8.  Always sought 75 F summer, 68 F winter temps in house... settled on 70 and 75 due to roomies.
9.  More recently, sought 68 and 78 more vigorously.  Got a year of 68 and 78, then a year of 69 and 77.  Ongoing.
10.  Six attempts so far to restart bike use after 25 year hiatus.  Failures so far, but it's not over yet.
11.  A few walks to the grocery store instead of driving.  Maybe more to come.
12. Bits of bus use instead of car use.  More to come, probably.
13.  Replaced cereal habit with rice and beans.  Ongoing.


« Last Edit: March 15, 2018, 05:28:20 PM by Bicycle_B »

Malaysia41

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Re: Self Imposing Carbon Taxes - Who's With Me?
« Reply #74 on: March 15, 2018, 10:17:36 PM »
Awesome BB.

I wish I’d had the sense to buy a house in town and rent out rooms in my 20s. We’d probably have 2x the stash at this point.

Impressive.
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Bicycle_B

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Re: Self Imposing Carbon Taxes - Who's With Me?
« Reply #75 on: March 18, 2018, 10:13:59 AM »
Daily life CO2 improvement 1st week:

79 degrees F in the house most of this week, no air conditioning turned on.  (Spring has sprung in Tejas.)
Bus instead of car to local festivals.
No grocery car trips yet (stopping by grocery after other errands 2x, ok by me since requires no extra driving).

Will check in after 1 month.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2018, 04:50:26 PM by Bicycle_B »

Tass

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Re: Self Imposing Carbon Taxes - Who's With Me?
« Reply #76 on: March 18, 2018, 07:00:57 PM »
My bike has been out of commission for a month and a half now because of a flat tire I don't have the equipment to fix.

I have been really swamped at work - and that's not likely to change soon - but I'm posting here for accountability. Because I'm burning more gas than necessary. And I really need to just buy a pump.

Malaysia41

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Re: Self Imposing Carbon Taxes - Who's With Me?
« Reply #77 on: March 28, 2018, 09:19:19 PM »
My bike has been out of commission for a month and a half now because of a flat tire I don't have the equipment to fix.

I have been really swamped at work - and that's not likely to change soon - but I'm posting here for accountability. Because I'm burning more gas than necessary. And I really need to just buy a pump.

@Tass - have you fixed the flat?
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Re: Self Imposing Carbon Taxes - Who's With Me?
« Reply #78 on: March 28, 2018, 11:33:53 PM »
Oooooh, guilty... Public accountability biting me in the butt I guess. I have my PhD candidacy exam in 3.5 weeks and I had sort of put everything else from my mind.

Bicycle_B

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Re: Self Imposing Carbon Taxes - Who's With Me?
« Reply #79 on: March 30, 2018, 09:42:05 AM »
Good luck with your exam, Tass!

For the thread public - if a US governor candidate says he'll ban fracking in his state, then start a class action lawsuit by the state against fracking, is contributing to his campaign a legitimate self imposed carbon tax?

https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/dennis-kucinich-vows-to-end-all-oil-and-gas-drilling-in-ohio-if-elected-governor-and-then-take-the-industry-to-court/



Malaysia41

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Re: Self Imposing Carbon Taxes - Who's With Me?
« Reply #80 on: March 30, 2018, 10:55:37 AM »
Good luck with your exam, Tass!

For the thread public - if a US governor candidate says he'll ban fracking in his state, then start a class action lawsuit by the state against fracking, is contributing to his campaign a legitimate self imposed carbon tax?

https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/dennis-kucinich-vows-to-end-all-oil-and-gas-drilling-in-ohio-if-elected-governor-and-then-take-the-industry-to-court/

I'd say so. I've been including political donations in my tally.  I think I'm up to $40 a ton so far because of all the political donations I've been making. Here are a few suggestions.
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palebluedot

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Re: Self Imposing Carbon Taxes - Who's With Me?
« Reply #81 on: April 01, 2018, 09:01:40 PM »
Finished watching Utopia a few days ago. I was only watching 1 episode per night :) Incredible show with an unfortunate ending that won't have any follow-up to it.

I've been keeping my eye out on Sunrise Movement (https://www.sunrisemovement.org/) - a youth based organization going all out on climate action. I feel that the kids, just like the gun violence movement, will be the ones with the loudest voice to make change. I met the NYC chapter of Sunrise in the fall and they are passionate in what they're doing. We had a time capsule event (http://www.climatetimecapsule.org/) where we put a letter written to your future self or someone you love and have it buried until 2067.

They are also getting elected officials to sign the no fossil fuel money pledge: http://nofossilfuelmoney.org/candidate-signup/
You can use it as well for your community.

Malaysia41

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Re: Self Imposing Carbon Taxes - Who's With Me?
« Reply #82 on: April 02, 2018, 03:23:05 AM »
Finished watching Utopia a few days ago. I was only watching 1 episode per night :) Incredible show with an unfortunate ending that won't have any follow-up to it.

I've been keeping my eye out on Sunrise Movement (https://www.sunrisemovement.org/) - a youth based organization going all out on climate action. I feel that the kids, just like the gun violence movement, will be the ones with the loudest voice to make change. I met the NYC chapter of Sunrise in the fall and they are passionate in what they're doing. We had a time capsule event (http://www.climatetimecapsule.org/) where we put a letter written to your future self or someone you love and have it buried until 2067.

They are also getting elected officials to sign the no fossil fuel money pledge: http://nofossilfuelmoney.org/candidate-signup/
You can use it as well for your community.

Cool you watched all of Utopia. The cinematography, colorization, acting, *music*, dialogue, and premise all combine to make it a compelling tv series. I enjoyed the evolution of Wilson in particular. About 2/3 of the way through the second season, the plot scattered a bit, but I'll give them that mulligan.

Thanks for the link to the Sunrise Movement. I've signed the petition and may send my next installment of self-imposed carbon taxes to them.

My thinking on where to direct these self-imposed-tax funds has evolved quite a bit since starting this thread. Thanks to all of you pitching in with your views on the matter. Sure, giving to eco non-profits is fine. But change will only come after we've put scientists, engineers and reasonable, data-driven people into power. These have to be people who represent people, not fossil fuel interests, not corporations, and preferably not entrenched political parties. Sure, they can run under a political party banner, but I don't want them dialing for dollars half the time they're in congress. I want them working for my kids futures. 

Top issues:

- getting $ out of political campaigns (e.g. public financing / overturning citizens united ala represent.us or wolf-pac)
- climate action ASAP

Until that first issue is addressed, the other issues - even though very important - can't really be fixed. I only list climate action because we can't wait until the system is fixed - we can't wait for a constitutional amendment or for durable legislation to pass and come into law. Other issues - like civil asset forfeiture, which violates our 4th and 5th amendment rights - can wait.

The first step is removing the willfully-obtuse, hateful, propaganda-believing tea partiers, and replacing them with progressive majorities in both chambers of congress. Sure, I dislike the DNC - after all they're funded by private and corporate $ too. But I'll take them over this grotesque version of the GOP. Every time.

I can't believe I was a registered republican for 20 years!!! It was Newt Gingrich's bullshit bloviating that first made me question my affiliation. Well that, and their blatantly manipulative questionnaires I received in the mail. But it wasn't until Mitch McConnell and GOP leadership unabashedly aligned with the Koch donor network / climate action propagandists that I finally re-registered as 'unaffiliated'. I just don't understand how educated people - my engineering masters degree holding father included - can be so taken up with their bullshit - and believe every word of it. They've been convinced to trade in my son's future world for a little bit of - what - 'liberal bashing'? short term shareholder value? 'sticking-it-to-the-know-it-all-bureacrats'? 'maintain the status quo'? Pretty much. Yeah. That's the bargain they've agreed to. I just can't fathom this way of thinking.

Maybe I'm ranting again. Yes. I'm ranting again. But I'm not wrong. So I'm leaving that paragraph. Thanks for the link to Sunrise Movement @palebluedot .
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Re: Self Imposing Carbon Taxes - Who's With Me?
« Reply #83 on: April 02, 2018, 04:02:38 AM »
My fear with getting involved in carbon sequestration as a form of carbon offsetting is that it would creep into justifying further indulgence. I feel that it would perniciously shift a very strict and concerned lifestyle, into one that is looser and that may start to think, "It's ok to take that flight to Japan, I'll just increase my donations".

I am not saying that carbon offsetting should be avoided, I am saying for the weak minded it could do more harm than good?

Ok, so what if I donate a really high amount each month to carbon offsetting organisations, an amount that means I am likely to be offsetting 100 tons a year. And let's say my footprint is 10 tons. In this scenario it is sooo tempting to think that taking that extra flight with a 2 ton footprint is acceptable.

I have been struggling with these thoughts for a while now and it has actually prevented me from putting money into carbon offsetting, which of course just feels ridiculous.

Help!
« Last Edit: April 02, 2018, 04:04:19 AM by dutty »

Hirondelle

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Re: Self Imposing Carbon Taxes - Who's With Me?
« Reply #84 on: April 02, 2018, 04:10:23 AM »
REPUBLICAN OF ALL THINGS? M41, that's a major confession! How could you ;)

A bit off topic, but I was just thinking about something else the other day. How do you guys invest your money? There have been some issues going on here re banks and how sustainable they are (e.g. some banks will not invest your money in let's say weapens or oil) and I also realize that by putting my money in Vanguard or other funds I often invest in companies that I "don't like". I've started investing in one "sustainable" fund which excludes certain companies (tobacco, weapons, animal fur and some others) which reduces the money going to "bad" places but I feel it still isn't significantly making any change/impact/improvement. Any suggestions?

Hirondelle

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Re: Self Imposing Carbon Taxes - Who's With Me?
« Reply #85 on: April 02, 2018, 04:14:49 AM »
My fear with getting involved in carbon sequestration as a form of carbon offsetting is that it would creep into justifying further indulgence. I feel that it would perniciously shift a very strict and concerned lifestyle, into one that is looser and that may start to think, "It's ok to take that flight to Japan, I'll just increase my donations".

I am not saying that carbon offsetting should be avoided, I am saying for the weak minded it could do more harm than good?

Ok, so what if I donate a really high amount each month to carbon offsetting organisations, an amount that means I am likely to be offsetting 100 tons a year. And let's say my footprint is 10 tons. In this scenario it is sooo tempting to think that taking that extra flight with a 2 ton footprint is acceptable.

I have been struggling with these thoughts for a while now and it has actually prevented me from putting money into carbon offsetting, which of course just feels ridiculous.

Help!

I think this is one reason it's important to introduce a Carbon Tax on flights (and meat/dairy and many other highly polluting products) so that compensation won't be a voluntary choice to pay of guilt, but that the overall price will get higher and the actual number of flights taken (and meat eaten) will be reduced. PLUS that the money will be actually used for reducing CO2 in the atmosphere and will not disappear in the pockets of the CEOs or governments. I realize that this will turn these products into "luxury goods" and reduce the number of people having access to them, but I do believe it is necessary to make an actual impact.

Malaysia41

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Re: Self Imposing Carbon Taxes - Who's With Me?
« Reply #86 on: April 02, 2018, 06:05:49 AM »
My fear with getting involved in carbon sequestration as a form of carbon offsetting is that it would creep into justifying further indulgence. I feel that it would perniciously shift a very strict and concerned lifestyle, into one that is looser and that may start to think, "It's ok to take that flight to Japan, I'll just increase my donations".

I am not saying that carbon offsetting should be avoided, I am saying for the weak minded it could do more harm than good?

Ok, so what if I donate a really high amount each month to carbon offsetting organisations, an amount that means I am likely to be offsetting 100 tons a year. And let's say my footprint is 10 tons. In this scenario it is sooo tempting to think that taking that extra flight with a 2 ton footprint is acceptable.

Check out http://www.314action.org/home (recommended by @palebluedot ), pick a candidate, go to their direct website and give them $.  We're fighting 1/2 Billion dollars in Koch donor network 2018 election $. It's overwhelming. But maybe lots of small donations can get some of these people into power - and kick out people who are working for the fossil fuel industry.
I have been struggling with these thoughts for a while now and it has actually prevented me from putting money into carbon offsetting, which of course just feels ridiculous.

Help!

You describe a very real moral hazard. We need to suppress total carbon emissions.  Giving ourselves 'an out' for adding more carbon emissions runs contrary to our goal. 

Like Hirondelle says, a direct tax on flights, gas, meat/dairy, high-use home energy, etc. is really what we want.

So let's vote people into power who will demand everyone pay use taxes on high carbon activities.

It comes back around to what I've come to realize is our #1 goal right now: electing people to power who understand the threat of global warming, who are not beholden to fossil fuel interests, and who are capable of crafting law and policy that make carbon emitters PAY and thus bring down overall carbon emissions.

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Malaysia41

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Re: Self Imposing Carbon Taxes - Who's With Me?
« Reply #87 on: April 02, 2018, 06:12:58 AM »
My fear with getting involved in carbon sequestration as a form of carbon offsetting is that it would creep into justifying further indulgence. I feel that it would perniciously shift a very strict and concerned lifestyle, into one that is looser and that may start to think, "It's ok to take that flight to Japan, I'll just increase my donations".

I am not saying that carbon offsetting should be avoided, I am saying for the weak minded it could do more harm than good?

Ok, so what if I donate a really high amount each month to carbon offsetting organisations, an amount that means I am likely to be offsetting 100 tons a year. And let's say my footprint is 10 tons. In this scenario it is sooo tempting to think that taking that extra flight with a 2 ton footprint is acceptable.

I have been struggling with these thoughts for a while now and it has actually prevented me from putting money into carbon offsetting, which of course just feels ridiculous.

Help!

I think this is one reason it's important to introduce a Carbon Tax on flights (and meat/dairy and many other highly polluting products) so that compensation won't be a voluntary choice to pay of guilt, but that the overall price will get higher and the actual number of flights taken (and meat eaten) will be reduced. PLUS that the money will be actually used for reducing CO2 in the atmosphere and will not disappear in the pockets of the CEOs or governments. I realize that this will turn these products into "luxury goods" and reduce the number of people having access to them, but I do believe it is necessary to make an actual impact.

Oh you don't even know the worst of it - I went through a whole Ayn Rand objectivist libertarian phase in college too. What a simplistic, anti-human philosophy that was. Recently, while reading Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment, I was reminded of this twisted philosophy that assures people that doing whatever the f they want is always good for society:

Pyotr Petrovitch says,

Quote
“Science now tells us love yourself before all men, for everything in the world rests on self-interest. You love yourself and manage your own affairs properly and your coat remains whole. Economic truth adds that the better private affairs are organized in society – the more whole coats, so to say – the firmer are its foundations and the better is the common welfare organized too. Therefore, in acquiring wealth solely and exclusively for myself, I am acquiring, so to speak, for all, and helping to bring to pass my neighbor’s getting a little more than a torn coat; and that not from private, personal liberality, but as a consequence of the general advance.”
It’s like reading Ayn freakin’ Rand from 1865
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Tass

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Re: Self Imposing Carbon Taxes - Who's With Me?
« Reply #88 on: April 02, 2018, 10:00:34 AM »
I read Atlas Shrugged in high school. Wasn't fully convinced but wasn't quite old/mature enough to articulate my issues with it. Ayn Rand will mess you up.

@Hirondelle I've wondered about ethical investing as well. I know I've read discussions on this forum - I thought it was this thread but now I can't find it - that ultimately investing in a company, especially a tiny amount through an index fund, doesn't ultimately make them money, but it's certainly still uncomfortable. My other concern is that no ethical index addresses all concerns, and I don't have the time/knowledge/will to do all the research and assemble a list myself. How far can you go down that path before it counts as stock picking?

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Re: Self Imposing Carbon Taxes - Who's With Me?
« Reply #89 on: April 02, 2018, 10:22:48 PM »
My fear with getting involved in carbon sequestration as a form of carbon offsetting is that it would creep into justifying further indulgence. I feel that it would perniciously shift a very strict and concerned lifestyle, into one that is looser and that may start to think, "It's ok to take that flight to Japan, I'll just increase my donations".

Help!

Good points, @dutty.  I think that whether this is good or bad depends on whether these donations have any real effect.  If their effect of the extra donations really is more than your flight, then taking the flight and increasing the donations is better than staying home and not increasing them, right?

Granted, the best thing is to produce no carbon and buy as many credits as possible.  But as a multi-faceted human being, these tradeoffs are reasonable.  IMHO the key is to separate a feeling of virtue (must be strict! must try hard!) from evaluation of what's useful (what is the best net carbon impact I can bring myself to have?).

There might be a ceiling to how much carbon can really be pulled from the atmosphere by purchase of carbon credits, but we're probably nowhere near it.  All options should be on the table, all contributions welcome.


Malaysia41

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Re: Self Imposing Carbon Taxes - Who's With Me?
« Reply #90 on: April 20, 2018, 02:26:02 AM »
Last weekend my son and I did a little activism in Bergamo Italy.  A big reason I do this activism now is to inspire people to consume less food based on animal products.  I urge reduction not only for ethical and health reasons - but also to lower the carbon footprint and mind-boggling environmental devastation of the livestock industry. 

Anyway, here's a short video I made, giving a glimpse into our 3 hour long demonstration/art-installation/activism on the streets of Bergamo, Italy.

And yes - M12 and I - we took the train there in order to minimize our own carbon emissions for the day.





https://youtu.be/ThCCYWTkeTY

What do you think of the video? Have you seen Cube of Truth demonstrations before? What do you think of this kind of activism?
« Last Edit: April 20, 2018, 02:33:09 AM by Malaysia41 »
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