Author Topic: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner  (Read 29767 times)

Chaplin

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #400 on: November 02, 2023, 09:55:52 PM »
I've checked-in with my wife occasionally for 20+ years on whether we could go down to one car. I've always thought we could make it work, although I would probably be making the most changes since it would be my initiative. This year we agreed that we could do it thanks to a few things: local bike infrastructure is great, we converted her bike to an e-bike, we have car-share options nearby, we could add a cargo bike for groceries and almost all errands needing to carry stuff, etc.

In theory it should have been a slam-dunk a few years ago, but change isn't always easy. Our two cars have been doing fewer and fewer km every year. The ICE is under 2000km/year and the EV is doing about 12,000km/year (except when I did that cross-country road-trip...). The main issue is that she hasn't wanted to ever be left without a vehicle so it's not the distance it drives, it's just about it being available. We decided to try just letting the insurance on the ICE lapse and see how it goes, and that happened yesterday. We could insure it again in a matter of hours if we really needed to, so it's almost like it's available on fairly short notice. I pretty much bike everywhere in town regardless of the weather or time of day, but trips (like the MMM Moab meetup) have been when I've used the EV. I hope that the next step is selling the ICE (or both and replacing them with something a single better choice) and joining a car-share. Thanks to being FIRE'ed I'm looking at options to attend Moab 2024 with a car at all.

Our "stop burning stuff" trajectory would take a big step forward at that point, although 2000km/year is relatively low. The last item would be our propane fireplace insert. That's our backup heat in case of a prolonged power outage, but we do use it occasionally for ambiance or fast heat when it's unusually cold (maybe one or two weeks per year). Fixing some insulation and windows would reduce the need for it.

nereo

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #401 on: December 14, 2023, 02:30:55 PM »
It's taken freakin' forever to line up both contractors and complete a punch list of renovations, but today we've made some major progress towards our goal of #stopburningstuff before 2030:

Heat pumps.  We moved into what we hope will be our home for the next several decades just over two years ago; a former summer-cottage-turned-house.  Like many homes in the area it relied on an oil-fueled boiler and hot water radiators in every room.  The boiler was installed in 1990, and while well maintained it was past its service life and not terribly efficient.  The home itself was 2x4 stick-framing with R-13 fiberglass in the exterior walls.  Half the house is over a crawl-space and half sits over a basement with a cement foundation.

First we spray-foamed the decking of the crawlspace (encapsulating wasn't a great option because of a giant chunk of ledge).  Then we replaced two broken, double-hung single-pane windows with some casement windows that met northern energy star standards (U-factor = 0.26).  "While we were at it" for window replacement we added housewrap at the sheathing level for both an air-barrier and drainage plane, and then 3" of rock wool continuous exterior insulation along one end of the house.  Added furring strips to create an air-gap before installing new cedar siding (the old was rotted beyond salvation).  That was all done by us over the last 10 weeks.

Today we hit another milestone; installation of heat pumps!  After much load calculations and design we went with a single exterior unit which drives a single ductless heat pump in the main living space, and then a triple-unit which connects to three smaller units in the two bedrooms plus out small home office. Four zones for a 1,000 sqft home, which seems a bit crazy, but that's where we are now.

The boiler is still in place until late spring, when we will remove that and the oil tank entirely as part of the next phase of our renovations. We have about 100 gallons int eh tank and that should be the last time we ever buy heating oil.  The only thing the boiler will do from now on is heat our water tank, but that will become unnecessary when we install a hot water heat pump in the coming weeks.  Then the entire aging system will just be a backup this winter while we make sure everything is working properly. In all likelihood we'll have to pump most of that 100 gallons out of the tank this spring.

Meanwhile, we've got a list of air-sealing and insulating left to tackle.

$6,000 state rebate + $2,000 federal credit + $1,200 local rebate chops the total cost of the new system plus removal and decommissioning of the old system in half.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2023, 03:31:22 PM by nereo »

RWD

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #402 on: December 14, 2023, 03:16:49 PM »
Amazing work, @nereo! Four zones for 1000 sq ft is incredible too. That's six times as many zones per square foot as our house, haha.

In the last 3 months we've spent a grand total $39 on gas (one car fill-up). I love having a 100% electric house.

rockeTree

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #403 on: December 15, 2023, 05:51:14 AM »
Wow @nereo ! Nicely done.

We replaced the big, leaky in both air and water, 40 year old picture window. Our last sizable step except the gas furnace, new when we bought the house less than ten years ago. We are running it harder than usual since the neighboring townhouses are both empty this winter, which is not ideal. No regrets on solar, heat pump water heater, induction stove, or new window. We had a big insulation upgrade when we moved in, may still be a few things I can do around the basement door. Otherwise in a holding pattern for now on the house; car miles continue to drop with the bikes (and my parter's semi-FIRE, ending the commute). Haven't flown except round trip to a funeral since well before the pandemic - our kid has flown once (we dropped him off with grandparents and he flew back later). And I have evangelized a couple folks into taking trains for trips they would have flown!

LD_TAndK

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #404 on: February 01, 2024, 10:54:28 AM »
Chatted to my parents about upgrading our PHEV sedan to a Model Y for more interior space and to go fully electric. A few days later they tell us they want to give us their 2019 Forester FOR FREE because they'd like a different form factor. The Forester fulfills all our wants & needs except that tiny little detail that it'll burn 400 gallons of gasoline a year. I told them we'll think about it but probably not, because we're trying to go fully electric.

Now the tiny frugal man on my left shoulder is saying "do it! You'll get $15k cash from selling your old car! Think of all the VTSAX! Way better than wasting money on some fancy pants EV"

The tiny environmentalist on my right shoulder is saying "you'll feel like a bastard every time you fill up tank"

eyesonthehorizon

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #405 on: February 01, 2024, 01:37:29 PM »
Chatted to my parents about upgrading our PHEV sedan to a Model Y for more interior space and to go fully electric. A few days later they tell us they want to give us their 2019 Forester FOR FREE because they'd like a different form factor. The Forester fulfills all our wants & needs except that tiny little detail that it'll burn 400 gallons of gasoline a year. I told them we'll think about it but probably not, because we're trying to go fully electric.

Now the tiny frugal man on my left shoulder is saying "do it! You'll get $15k cash from selling your old car! Think of all the VTSAX! Way better than wasting money on some fancy pants EV"

The tiny environmentalist on my right shoulder is saying "you'll feel like a bastard every time you fill up tank"
Would they let you sell it for them & give you the proceeds up to the gift exclusion so you can buy something you want? They get a bit, you get a bit, someone who was going to buy that car anyway buys that car anyway....

NorCal

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #406 on: February 01, 2024, 02:49:14 PM »
I figured I'd post an update since the thread popped back up.

I'm now in an all EV household, albeit with such expensive vehicles that I'm not sure are appropriate for this forum. 

As an added benefit, one EV has a power outlet.  So my propane camp stove was just replaced by an induction cooktop.  I used it to cook lunch on our holiday road trip.  I warmed up food while the car was charging.  It's a nice alternative to fast food.  120V outlets are an underappreciated feature in EV's.  My car also has its own kettle for making coffee or hot chocolate. 

I'm also getting ready to get rid of our gas fireplace once the weather warms up a bit.  I've been looking at it closer, and I feel pretty confident about handling it as a DIY project.  I have a rough sketch of an electric fireplace with a built-in bookcase for the same spot.  This will be my last project before I can fully cut the gas line.

Unfortunately, our utility is making it difficult to get rid of the gas line (paywalled article below).  Some people are getting billed for the removal of the meter, and their forms/process is a mess.  Supposedly they'll stop billing people for this in February.  Hopefully this is a place where a few early pioneers will make it easier for others in the future. 

https://www.denverpost.com/2024/01/29/xcel-energy-customers-disconnecting-gas-electricity-homes/

Related to the article, if it really does cost a utility ~$5k-$6k to unhook a customer, natural gas networks are more financially vulnerable than I thought.  Those expenses get passed on to the ratepayers (in CO at least), while a departing customer generates no future revenue.  A couple percent of customers leaving the gas networks each year would negatively change the cost structure of gas networks pretty dramatically over a 10-20 year period. 

nereo

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #407 on: February 01, 2024, 05:21:37 PM »
I used to live in the SF Bay Area and knew the San Bernardino Bruno neighborhood that blew up because of decrepit gas lines owned by PG&E. The cost of installing a network of gas lines is substantial, and the cost for replacing all of them 50 years later when they hit their end of service life is MASSIVE. Plus… in retrospect building our cities and towns on top of explosive lines of fossil fuels will probably go down in history as crazy, and only seems normal now because it is so common

Edit: fixed to San Bruno
« Last Edit: February 02, 2024, 04:51:10 AM by nereo »

GilesMM

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #408 on: February 01, 2024, 06:21:01 PM »
I used to live in the SF Bay Area and knew the San Bernardino neighborhood that blew up because of decrepit gas lines owned by PG&E. The cost of installing a network of gas lines is substantial, and the cost for replacing all of them 50 years later when they hit their end of service life is MASSIVE. Plus… in retrospect building our cities and towns on top of explosive lines of fossil fuels will probably go down in history as crazy, and only seems normal now because it is so common


The 1989 explosion? I was under the impression that was an unleaded gasoline line, not natural gas.

AlanStache

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #409 on: February 01, 2024, 06:57:08 PM »
I used to live in the SF Bay Area and knew the San Bernardino neighborhood that blew up because of decrepit gas lines owned by PG&E. The cost of installing a network of gas lines is substantial, and the cost for replacing all of them 50 years later when they hit their end of service life is MASSIVE. Plus… in retrospect building our cities and towns on top of explosive lines of fossil fuels will probably go down in history as crazy, and only seems normal now because it is so common

This might be one of those, 'it sounds really dumb and dangerous but in practice you are more likely to die from a piano falling on you cartoon style.'  Not to say we should not move away from burning things or those lives lost were not valuable. 

NorCal

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #410 on: February 01, 2024, 08:19:29 PM »
I used to live in the SF Bay Area and knew the San Bernardino neighborhood that blew up because of decrepit gas lines owned by PG&E. The cost of installing a network of gas lines is substantial, and the cost for replacing all of them 50 years later when they hit their end of service life is MASSIVE. Plus… in retrospect building our cities and towns on top of explosive lines of fossil fuels will probably go down in history as crazy, and only seems normal now because it is so common

I remember watching the San Bruno pipeline explosion happen.  I was working on the peninsula near the Oracle campus, and about to start my commute home to SF.

I could see the plume of fire from 15 miles away.  Actual flames reaching about 1,000ft into the sky. We initially thought it was a plane crash from the radio.  I think it was 35 homes and 8 people incinerated. 

This sticks in my mind in a similar way to 9/11 as I witnessed it happen.

Death from natural gas isn't a high probability thing.  But I do read reports of homes blowing up once or twice a year. Combined with the real long term health risks of using gas for cooking, there's some real good reasons to move away from it. 

nereo

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #411 on: February 02, 2024, 04:49:41 AM »
I used to live in the SF Bay Area and knew the San Bernardino Bruno neighborhood that blew up because of decrepit gas lines owned by PG&E. The cost of installing a network of gas lines is substantial, and the cost for replacing all of them 50 years later when they hit their end of service life is MASSIVE. Plus… in retrospect building our cities and towns on top of explosive lines of fossil fuels will probably go down in history as crazy, and only seems normal now because it is so common


The 1989 explosion? I was under the impression that was an unleaded gasoline line, not natural gas.

Oops, San Bruno not. San Bernardino… what I get for writing when tired and rely too much on swipe to text…
Details here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Bruno_pipeline_explosion

NorCal

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #412 on: February 02, 2024, 11:00:28 AM »
Natural gas is a challenge for several reasons.

First off, from a climate change standpoint, it doesn't make sense to use natural gas at anywhere near the levels we use it today.  It doesn't mean it would have to go away entirely, but it does mean that whatever we're using would have to be mitigated in some way shape or form. 

From an economic perspective, it either makes sense to use natural gas at comparable levels to our current usage or not at all.  There are massive fixed costs in running and maintaining a web of pipelines for explosive gas under residential neighborhoods.  These costs exist whether the network is supplying millions of CCF in gas or hundreds of CCF in gas.

As people reduce gas usage through electrification or efficiency, those fixed costs get passed back to the other ratepayers.  Less revenue in the system with similar costs means costs will go up over time.  It won't happen all at once, but prices will start increasing faster than inflation persistently over many years. 

Locally, Colorado just passed some very stringent environmental requirements for all buildings over 25k sqft.  Buildings can meet ever-increasing targets using a combination of electrification, efficiency, and renewable energy purchases.  They'll eventually need to be pretty aggressive on all three.  I expect this will tilt the table against natural gas for everyone over the coming years, given the outsized energy usage of commercial/industrial buildings.   

I strongly suspect there will be a point in the mid or late 2030's where the difference between that have's and have-not's in society is partially defined by those who can afford to cut their dependence on hydrocarbons and those who can't. 

GilesMM

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #413 on: February 02, 2024, 11:24:22 AM »
Natural gas is a challenge for several reasons.

First off, from a climate change standpoint, it doesn't make sense to use natural gas at anywhere near the levels we use it today.  It doesn't mean it would have to go away entirely, but it does mean that whatever we're using would have to be mitigated in some way shape or form. 

From an economic perspective, it either makes sense to use natural gas at comparable levels to our current usage or not at all.  There are massive fixed costs in running and maintaining a web of pipelines for explosive gas under residential neighborhoods.  These costs exist whether the network is supplying millions of CCF in gas or hundreds of CCF in gas.

As people reduce gas usage through electrification or efficiency, those fixed costs get passed back to the other ratepayers.  Less revenue in the system with similar costs means costs will go up over time.  It won't happen all at once, but prices will start increasing faster than inflation persistently over many years. 

Locally, Colorado just passed some very stringent environmental requirements for all buildings over 25k sqft.  Buildings can meet ever-increasing targets using a combination of electrification, efficiency, and renewable energy purchases.  They'll eventually need to be pretty aggressive on all three.  I expect this will tilt the table against natural gas for everyone over the coming years, given the outsized energy usage of commercial/industrial buildings.   

I strongly suspect there will be a point in the mid or late 2030's where the difference between that have's and have-not's in society is partially defined by those who can afford to cut their dependence on hydrocarbons and those who can't.


Except that as gas demand falls, prices will likely fall as well since supply is actually increasing.  The fall in gas price should offset the increases you describe.

GilesMM

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #414 on: February 02, 2024, 04:40:33 PM »
We are jumping closer to StopBurningStuff by moving to a greener house this month.  The new place is all electric except the gas rangetop and two fireplace inserts, so quite easy to go 100% electric when desired.  Solar was installed a couple years ago and while it doesn't offset 100% of annual demand, it is the max residential size allowed by the local utility.  Better news, however, is that the local utility is already 97% renewable, so even staying on the grid we are nearly 100% green. 


Transportation will be next up, but not until some decent used EVs are available.  Maybe a 2025 Lexus RZ in 2029?  Tick-tock...

grantmeaname

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #415 on: February 14, 2024, 03:35:14 PM »
Today I checked my state's energy marketplace and cut my green electricity by ~20% and my natural gas supply charge by 50% compared to the rates I got in November 2022 when I moved in. friendly reminder to get out and do that if you're in one of the states where that's legal (sorry Wisconsin... call your legislators?) Too bad I wasn't smart enough to do that in November - I'd be $100+ richer already. Not that it matters too much when your fixed charge for natural gas is $50/mo or 50% of your year-round bill... can't wait to go heat pump and kick my shitty natural gas service to the curb.

My usage numbers, for those who want to compare. I'm happy enough with these but I'm sure some of you do far, far better.

nereo

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #416 on: March 17, 2024, 03:16:03 PM »
Symbolic day for us this week, as the workers came back to remove our oil-burning furnace and heating oil tank from our basement. Our home is now 100% electric, and our transportation is over 90% electric or human powered (one BEV and one PHEV, both of which are primarily charged on solar).

Also, as the hot water storage tank fed off the boiler was removed we switched on our new hot water heat pump. The basement is now noticeable cooler (mostly because there’s no boiler constantly dumping heat), but most of all we reclaimed SO MUCH SPACE. Our basement now looks so much different. Must combat tendency to fill space with more crap.

Next up:
  • Remove all baseboard registers (there are 8 in our 950 ft2 home)
  • cut new soffit vents, then…
  • add another 12” of blown-in cellulose

Much bigger changes happening this fall, but part of a more complex renovation/addition project.

RWD

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #417 on: March 17, 2024, 05:12:15 PM »
Congrats! 100% electric house feels great.

A hot water heat pump will pull heat from the surrounding air which could also be contributing to your basement feeling cooler (unless it's routed outside).

NorCal

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #418 on: March 18, 2024, 04:48:11 PM »
What are everyone's thoughts on DIY vs contractors for air sealing and added attic insulation?

I bought some recessed light covers and some spray foam for air sealing.  I started putting them in, but it was an unpleasant project.  Two are installed, 15 to go. 

Maybe I'm getting soft in my old age, but I'm starting to lean towards getting quotes.

FYI, spray foam in your hair is a bad way to start the day.

bacchi

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #419 on: March 18, 2024, 05:09:45 PM »
Attic insulation is easy if you're adding blown cellulose and your soffit vents can be protected. I put on a good mask and crawled around with the hose while SO fed the hopper. We communicated through walkie talkies.

I had earlier added plywood on top of the attic joists (not everywhere but in paths), which made walking/crawling safer than trying to sideways step on the joists.

nereo

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #420 on: March 18, 2024, 05:51:28 PM »
Attic insulation is easy if you're adding blown cellulose and your soffit vents can be protected. I put on a good mask and crawled around with the hose while SO fed the hopper. We communicated through walkie talkies.

I had earlier added plywood on top of the attic joists (not everywhere but in paths), which made walking/crawling safer than trying to sideways step on the joists.

I’ve done it on two previous houses, so I’m familiar with the process.  Cutting new soffit vents will be the only new thing, but is pretty straightforward. Laying plywood paths is a great idea which I’ll almost certainly do


NorCal

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #421 on: March 18, 2024, 07:15:21 PM »
Thanks everyone. Part of my challenge is that my roof is framed with diagonal braces throughout. There’s no room to put a walkway or even maneuver without serious difficulty.