Author Topic: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!  (Read 599446 times)

SwordGuy

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3700 on: August 16, 2020, 12:10:29 PM »
Just thought Iíd check in...

Negotiations with my employer are at a stalemate.

The pressure is mounting for me to just back down and accept my company not honouring my current employment contract, if I want the next job.

The amount in dispute is fairly large I suppose, but not life altering. Enough to pay cash for a fancy German car, but not enough for a ski chalet to go with it. nevertheless Itís causing me some sleepless nights.

Whilst I am certainly in a place of ample FU money, I donít know if burning down the castle to get whatís mine is necessarily the way to go.

My stance is strong legally (almost bulletproof Iíd say), but there is always the risk that if you are counting on lawyers you could end up in tears. Also I have negotiated a pretty good package that is unlikely to be replicable if I leave my current employer.

I just need to find some way to exert leverage without being too threatening. Really not sure how to force their hand. Or should I just adhere to the ďbetter is the enemy of the goodĒ logic (Voltaire)

Flight departs in 9 days, will I be on it? or will I do the ballsy thing and refuse to fly until I am paid.... what will then be a termination 😬

This is a PERFECT example of how laws are not set up fairly.

If you were to steal $100 worth of office supplies from your employer you could be arrested for theft.   The police and district attorneys will prosecute you at taxpayer expense.

But if they steal $60K in your wages from you, it's not a crime.   The police and district attorneys won't prosecute them at taxpayer expense, you have to do that yourself.

This kind of thing makes people twitchy to put a guillotine to work.

Next time you hear about systemic racism, remember how it's set up to work.   It's so well done it's usually invisible until you take the blinders off and see it for what it is.

Dicey

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3701 on: August 16, 2020, 12:18:33 PM »
Just thought Iíd check in...

Negotiations with my employer are at a stalemate.

The pressure is mounting for me to just back down and accept my company not honouring my current employment contract, if I want the next job.

The amount in dispute is fairly large I suppose, but not life altering. Enough to pay cash for a fancy German car, but not enough for a ski chalet to go with it. nevertheless Itís causing me some sleepless nights.

Whilst I am certainly in a place of ample FU money, I donít know if burning down the castle to get whatís mine is necessarily the way to go.

My stance is strong legally (almost bulletproof Iíd say), but there is always the risk that if you are counting on lawyers you could end up in tears. Also I have negotiated a pretty good package that is unlikely to be replicable if I leave my current employer.

I just need to find some way to exert leverage without being too threatening. Really not sure how to force their hand. Or should I just adhere to the ďbetter is the enemy of the goodĒ logic (Voltaire)

Flight departs in 9 days, will I be on it? or will I do the ballsy thing and refuse to fly until I am paid.... what will then be a termination 😬
Okay, I read through your back posts and I'm still not clear on exactly what's going on. Care to elaborate so I can commiserate more fully?

Exflyboy

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3702 on: August 16, 2020, 12:19:40 PM »
Just thought Iíd check in...

Negotiations with my employer are at a stalemate.

The pressure is mounting for me to just back down and accept my company not honouring my current employment contract, if I want the next job.

The amount in dispute is fairly large I suppose, but not life altering. Enough to pay cash for a fancy German car, but not enough for a ski chalet to go with it. nevertheless Itís causing me some sleepless nights.

Whilst I am certainly in a place of ample FU money, I donít know if burning down the castle to get whatís mine is necessarily the way to go.

My stance is strong legally (almost bulletproof Iíd say), but there is always the risk that if you are counting on lawyers you could end up in tears. Also I have negotiated a pretty good package that is unlikely to be replicable if I leave my current employer.

I just need to find some way to exert leverage without being too threatening. Really not sure how to force their hand. Or should I just adhere to the ďbetter is the enemy of the goodĒ logic (Voltaire)

Flight departs in 9 days, will I be on it? or will I do the ballsy thing and refuse to fly until I am paid.... what will then be a termination 😬
Okay, I read through your back posts and I'm still not clear on exactly what's going on. Care to elaborate so I can commiserate more fully?

^^^This^^^^...:)

deborah

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3703 on: August 16, 2020, 01:00:47 PM »
Do you want to come back to Australia? As the government has recently severely limited the numbers being repatriated, many people are being bumped from their flights. There are still enormous numbers of people wanting to come back. The media are saying that bumping is happening because the airlines are getting people paying for more expensive fares, and because they can only have 30 or 50 people on a plane (due to the government repatriation limits), theyíre bumping those in economy class. As this is illegal, the appropriate regulatory authority is looking into it, but they probably canít do much as many of the fares are paid overseas.

Actually, I suppose itís irrelevant to you because you wonít be flying in economy. So you might be bumping others.

Fomerly known as something

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3704 on: August 16, 2020, 08:38:24 PM »
I do have a journal thread, which this thread is not. I go into more detail about my life over there! This thread is just the race to $4MM :P

This thread kinda became the hangout for Mustachians that hit 2M and found themselves going higher.  The 'and beyond' and 'race' part evolved a bit to just mean, this is a good place for folks to discuss how they are enjoying their FI and what the future holds.  There is a 4M and beyond thread that might be more appealing to you, if 4M+ is your goal.  I'll check out your journal, but please throw in more to this thread than what is typical in a 'race to' thread because it kinda detracts from those of us just hanging out here enjoying our FI.  Not sure if you've really read the full thread, but you'll understand us better if your TSLA stock slows down and/or you realize you have enough to already accomplish stuff 90+% of the world can only dream of (like ER, dream home location, dream pursuits that don't pay as well, helping others, self actualization, etc).  Glad to have you here, sorry to go all 'hall monitor' on you.

Thatís why I like it here even though I only qualify right now using fuzzy math due to my pension.  I find the $1-2 million boring since itís just people reporting numbers.

Bateaux

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3705 on: August 16, 2020, 10:54:19 PM »
I do have a journal thread, which this thread is not. I go into more detail about my life over there! This thread is just the race to $4MM :P

This thread kinda became the hangout for Mustachians that hit 2M and found themselves going higher.  The 'and beyond' and 'race' part evolved a bit to just mean, this is a good place for folks to discuss how they are enjoying their FI and what the future holds.  There is a 4M and beyond thread that might be more appealing to you, if 4M+ is your goal.  I'll check out your journal, but please throw in more to this thread than what is typical in a 'race to' thread because it kinda detracts from those of us just hanging out here enjoying our FI.  Not sure if you've really read the full thread, but you'll understand us better if your TSLA stock slows down and/or you realize you have enough to already accomplish stuff 90+% of the world can only dream of (like ER, dream home location, dream pursuits that don't pay as well, helping others, self actualization, etc).  Glad to have you here, sorry to go all 'hall monitor' on you.

Thatís why I like it here even though I only qualify right now using fuzzy math due to my pension.  I find the $1-2 million boring since itís just people reporting numbers.

I posted here as an imposter initially.   I kicked in some pension and real estate.   Then just pension that now has a cash value as of August 1st.  Now, finally, stand alone stocks, bonds, REITs meet the 2 million.  Add all the crap up and it's approaching 3 million.  I felt the same way, wanted out of the 1 to 2.  CarJack reached out a hand, dropped the tailgate and I jumped in a little early.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2020, 10:56:19 PM by Bateaux »

Bateaux

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3706 on: August 16, 2020, 11:03:25 PM »
I was at 1.8M putting everything in one basket.  Builds quick.  Less than 3 years ago.


Picture you're racing a bicycle and I'm on the back of a pickup, laying down in the bed with my arm outstretched.  Come on.....you can do it!!!

tooqk4u22

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3707 on: August 17, 2020, 07:46:48 AM »
I do have a journal thread, which this thread is not. I go into more detail about my life over there! This thread is just the race to $4MM :P

This thread kinda became the hangout for Mustachians that hit 2M and found themselves going higher.  The 'and beyond' and 'race' part evolved a bit to just mean, this is a good place for folks to discuss how they are enjoying their FI and what the future holds.  There is a 4M and beyond thread that might be more appealing to you, if 4M+ is your goal.  I'll check out your journal, but please throw in more to this thread than what is typical in a 'race to' thread because it kinda detracts from those of us just hanging out here enjoying our FI.  Not sure if you've really read the full thread, but you'll understand us better if your TSLA stock slows down and/or you realize you have enough to already accomplish stuff 90+% of the world can only dream of (like ER, dream home location, dream pursuits that don't pay as well, helping others, self actualization, etc).  Glad to have you here, sorry to go all 'hall monitor' on you.

Thatís why I like it here even though I only qualify right now using fuzzy math due to my pension.  I find the $1-2 million boring since itís just people reporting numbers.

I posted here as an imposter initially.   I kicked in some pension and real estate.   Then just pension that now has a cash value as of August 1st.  Now, finally, stand alone stocks, bonds, REITs meet the 2 million.  Add all the crap up and it's approaching 3 million.  I felt the same way, wanted out of the 1 to 2.  CarJack reached out a hand, dropped the tailgate and I jumped in a little early.

Uuuhhhggg!   Here I was living blissfully in the $2-4M club (with a little beyond for good measure) and now I find out there is a $4M and beyond.   WTF! Now I feel exceptionally poor and must return to work to race ever higher,  for that is what we do. 

That seems like a lot of work, nevermind. 

Dicey

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3708 on: August 17, 2020, 07:48:39 AM »
IMO, if you're at that level and still working, you're doing it wrong.

JoJoP

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3709 on: August 17, 2020, 08:16:13 AM »
@MaybeBabyMustache , in spite of the naysayers predicting an eminent RE crash, I think SF real estate is and remains a strong investment.  And you're living there, right?  So you get to enjoy your cool vibe neighborhood.   I think you need to ask yourself questions more along the line of "Are we ready to move?  Downsize? Relocate?"  Then base your choices on those answers.   There's no wrong answer.  It's glorious to buy low and sell high, especially if you're lucky enough to catch both the trough and the peak-- oh, in SF real estate those numbers are mindboggling--but I wouldn't rush the decision based on what the RE market might do in the future. 

We've just bought 4 rental houses along the Oregon Coast, but their performance as an investment merely duplicates what we were able to do closer to home 12 years ago.  Now, prices have doubled in our area and we had to cast a wider net or accept a much smaller return.   Hind sight is 20/20.    In other words, if it's not broke, don't fix it.   If you're looking for a good investment, look no further than your front door.  It is a good investment and you already own it.  Stay until you're ready to go.  Then move on with confidence and a fat wallet toward your next life chapter.

GreenEggs

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3710 on: August 17, 2020, 08:28:18 AM »
IMO, if you're at that level and still working, you're doing it wrong.




As in running the wrong race. 


I think "winning" is present tense, and "won" is past tense.  Winning is pleasurable to the ego, while retirement presents the fear of dealing with unknowns without a safety net or a familiar roadmap.  And there's also the fear of being with your mate 24/7, without the hormones of a newly wed couple.  ;)

MaybeBabyMustache

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3711 on: August 17, 2020, 10:12:39 AM »
@MaybeBabyMustache , in spite of the naysayers predicting an eminent RE crash, I think SF real estate is and remains a strong investment.  And you're living there, right?  So you get to enjoy your cool vibe neighborhood.   I think you need to ask yourself questions more along the line of "Are we ready to move?  Downsize? Relocate?"  Then base your choices on those answers.   There's no wrong answer.  It's glorious to buy low and sell high, especially if you're lucky enough to catch both the trough and the peak-- oh, in SF real estate those numbers are mindboggling--but I wouldn't rush the decision based on what the RE market might do in the future. 

We've just bought 4 rental houses along the Oregon Coast, but their performance as an investment merely duplicates what we were able to do closer to home 12 years ago.  Now, prices have doubled in our area and we had to cast a wider net or accept a much smaller return.   Hind sight is 20/20.    In other words, if it's not broke, don't fix it.   If you're looking for a good investment, look no further than your front door.  It is a good investment and you already own it.  Stay until you're ready to go.  Then move on with confidence and a fat wallet toward your next life chapter.

@JoJoP - this was really helpful, and I agree. I need to be happy with where we are & enjoy. Things may shift around here & there with pricing, but this is where we'll be until (at least) the kids are done with school.

Would love to know more about where you own on the Oregon coast, if you are comfortable sharing. It's our house, but primarily for family usage (don't really rent), but I've never had so many people ask to use it, thanks to COVID. It's in hot demand right now. :-) We were there in June for three weeks & loved it, and expect to spend more time there due to flexible work options.

LightTripper

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3712 on: August 17, 2020, 10:24:28 AM »
Ahh well, I didn't realise pension and real estate didn't count.  I'm still safely in the fold on a USD basis I think.

I am talking to my big boss about going onto a flexible contract on Friday.  I have a big project I need to finish that should be done by mid January at latest, but if it wraps up earlier (it's a legal process that may settle out of court if I'm lucky) then I'll drop my hours and ask to switch to the flexible contract sooner than that.

I really think I may just fully walk.  I always assumed I would at least finish off the projects I've started (there are a couple of things that may pop back up over the coming years), and I'd still like to do that ideally - but the working environment is feeling very toxic right now, and if I can't finish up my ongoing projects without feeling exposed to that then I am increasingly thinking I'm ready to just cut all ties and go.

Scary, but good to finally have that clarity, after a long time of feeling (I now realise) very stressed and unmoored by the idea of just "stopping".

It's so weird, 2020 was going to be my amazing year of working less, going out in the evenings, having some "me time" and generally wrapping my head around the idea of retirement.  It's been quite the opposite (working more, staying in, no "me time" whatsoever since February)!  But still, I've made some progress towards where I need to be mentally.  So that's all good I guess.  And certainly I have a lot less to complain about than most.

Dicey

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3713 on: August 17, 2020, 11:03:14 AM »
Ahh well, I didn't realise pension and real estate didn't count.  I'm still safely in the fold on a USD basis I think.
Dicey chuckles and asks, "Sez who?" It's not like anybody's checking portfolios at the door.

Funny, the more I have, the less I include in my (mostly mental) net worth calculations. The value of cars, household gioods, tools, etc. are just the beginning of a list of things I rarely bother to think about, much less count anymore. Post-FIRE, a spitball estimate works just fine for me. Pre-FIRE, I tracked everything.

Exflyboy

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3714 on: August 17, 2020, 11:32:54 AM »
Ahh well, I didn't realise pension and real estate didn't count.  I'm still safely in the fold on a USD basis I think.
Dicey chuckles and asks, "Sez who?" It's not like anybody's checking portfolios at the door.

Funny, the more I have, the less I include in my (mostly mental) net worth calculations. The value of cars, household gioods, tools, etc. are just the beginning of a list of things I rarely bother to think about, much less count anymore. Post-FIRE, a spitball estimate works just fine for me. Pre-FIRE, I tracked everything.

What assets are counted to get you into this club is a bit like the difference between good sex and bad sex.... There is no bad sex..:)

Like you though in the beginning it was like.. "I'm sure I could get another couple hundred if I sold my aging computer"..

Now its "if its not in an account its not counted", except maybe a hand wave at pension and house value.

Exflyboy

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3715 on: August 17, 2020, 11:38:18 AM »
IMO, if you're at that level and still working, you're doing it wrong.




As in running the wrong race. 


I think "winning" is present tense, and "won" is past tense.  Winning is pleasurable to the ego, while retirement presents the fear of dealing with unknowns without a safety net or a familiar roadmap.  And there's also the fear of being with your mate 24/7, without the hormones of a newly wed couple.  ;)

There are these little blue pills you can get..:)

tooqk4u22

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3716 on: August 17, 2020, 01:28:28 PM »
Ahh well, I didn't realise pension and real estate didn't count.  I'm still safely in the fold on a USD basis I think.
Dicey chuckles and asks, "Sez who?" It's not like anybody's checking portfolios at the door.

Funny, the more I have, the less I include in my (mostly mental) net worth calculations. The value of cars, household gioods, tools, etc. are just the beginning of a list of things I rarely bother to think about, much less count anymore. Post-FIRE, a spitball estimate works just fine for me. Pre-FIRE, I tracked everything.

Yeah, my mental NW is way different than my actual NW, in reality my mental NW is only my investments that I will be living off of at 3-4% WR.   My actual NW also has house, college funds, HSA accounts, and a few sinking fund accounts for home/auto repairs and auto replacement and vacation funds.   I never include any personal property.   

BTW - Those sinking funds have grown quite large as I have put in about $750/month for a long time but then never transferred money out of them as I incurred those expenses. Now that I am FIRE though I still send the $750/mo but will start withdrawing as consumed. 


SeattleCPA

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3717 on: August 17, 2020, 02:10:42 PM »
@Buffaloski Boris - I was uncomfortable with the price tag when we bought it, and we've invested money in the house, plus the market has continued to rise steadily. So... I'd say I'd really have to close my eyes at the idea of ever spending that kind of money on a house (even more than we paid before). Realistically, while property values might drop a bit, this is where we want to be for the next five years at least, and it's hard to predict what will happen in that time.

Sounds to me like youíve made up your mind. If youíd buy today, eyes closed or shut, then you have your answer. Something you might think about is refi or cashing out given current interest rates. IIRC, real estate debt is non recourse in California.
Except for the mistake I fixed, I pretty much agree with BB's thoughts. Bonus is that I'm in the Bay Area, too. OMG, I can't believe how much we paid for our house and what we've spent to maintain it for the last seven years. I also can't believe how much it's gone up in value. If you're going to continue to work, I think I'd ride the Real Estate Pony until you're ready to saddle up and get out of Dodge.

I really, really like BB's suggestion to re-fi and pull some of your equity out, but be careful of IRS limits on deductibility. Just for fun, let's ping some experts. Are @Cpa Cat, @SeattleCPA, or @seattlecyclone still in the house? Anyone else who knows is welcome to chime in.

The interest on the "extra money" you take out at a refi isn't qualified mortgage interest and so may not produce an itemized deduction. I think that's your question...

LWYRUP

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3718 on: August 17, 2020, 03:09:31 PM »
Ahh well, I didn't realise pension and real estate didn't count.  I'm still safely in the fold on a USD basis I think.
Dicey chuckles and asks, "Sez who?" It's not like anybody's checking portfolios at the door.

Funny, the more I have, the less I include in my (mostly mental) net worth calculations. The value of cars, household gioods, tools, etc. are just the beginning of a list of things I rarely bother to think about, much less count anymore. Post-FIRE, a spitball estimate works just fine for me. Pre-FIRE, I tracked everything.

Yeah, my mental NW is way different than my actual NW, in reality my mental NW is only my investments that I will be living off of at 3-4% WR.   My actual NW also has house, college funds, HSA accounts, and a few sinking fund accounts for home/auto repairs and auto replacement and vacation funds.   I never include any personal property.   

BTW - Those sinking funds have grown quite large as I have put in about $750/month for a long time but then never transferred money out of them as I incurred those expenses. Now that I am FIRE though I still send the $750/mo but will start withdrawing as consumed.

I just distinguish between net worth and "FIRE stash."

Net worth includes home, emergency fund, 529s, etc.  I don't bother counting cars or personal property because it's not spendable money unless I am willing to sell them, and if I am willing to sell them then I should probably just get on with it, so everything I own other than my house is pretty much earmarked to be used until its worn down and unusable.

My "FIRE stash" excludes all of those items.  It's basically retirement funds plus taxable investment accounts. 

If you own rental property, I think you either calculate it based on NOI and leave out the equity or you calculate the equity and ignore the NOI.  Because you can't get at the equity unless you give up the NOI.  I'd probably use NOI personally and treat rental property as an income source and ignore the equity. 


JoJoP

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3719 on: August 17, 2020, 05:12:54 PM »
It's time for me to step in, right on cue, and wave my little "rentals count in NW tallies" flag.  Net worth is... NET WORTH. 

Reminder:  Not everybody takes the same path.  If I inherited the Hope Diamond or an original Banksy or the Mona Lisa, it would count.   Does my wedding ring count?... no, of course not, because I don't plan on selling it as an asset.    We have more rentals than I can count on my fingers, they're all paid for.  Like @SwordGuy, we also have farmland.  It's not a backyard garden with a few tomato plants.   We don't live in all these houses, they are liquid assets.  We're pretty far into the "and beyond" category and it's about 90% RE equity.   

LWYRUP

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3720 on: August 17, 2020, 05:48:51 PM »
It's time for me to step in, right on cue, and wave my little "rentals count in NW tallies" flag.  Net worth is... NET WORTH. 

Reminder:  Not everybody takes the same path.  If I inherited the Hope Diamond or an original Banksy or the Mona Lisa, it would count.   Does my wedding ring count?... no, of course not, because I don't plan on selling it as an asset.    We have more rentals than I can count on my fingers, they're all paid for.  Like @SwordGuy, we also have farmland.  It's not a backyard garden with a few tomato plants.   We don't live in all these houses, they are liquid assets.  We're pretty far into the "and beyond" category and it's about 90% RE equity.

Of course rentals count for net worth.  But the equity for net worth shouldn't count for the 4% rule because you cannot unlock that equity unless you sell, and if you sell you can't count the income. 

JoJoP

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3721 on: August 17, 2020, 09:44:25 PM »
It's time for me to step in, right on cue, and wave my little "rentals count in NW tallies" flag.  Net worth is... NET WORTH. 

Reminder:  Not everybody takes the same path.  If I inherited the Hope Diamond or an original Banksy or the Mona Lisa, it would count.   Does my wedding ring count?... no, of course not, because I don't plan on selling it as an asset.    We have more rentals than I can count on my fingers, they're all paid for.  Like @SwordGuy, we also have farmland.  It's not a backyard garden with a few tomato plants.   We don't live in all these houses, they are liquid assets.  We're pretty far into the "and beyond" category and it's about 90% RE equity.

Of course rentals count for net worth.  But the equity for net worth shouldn't count for the 4% rule because you cannot unlock that equity unless you sell, and if you sell you can't count the income.

Correct, I wouldn't use equity for the 4% rule, I'd use rental income return.  Our rents serve like your 4% draw down.  In both cases, the asset is left alone to earn its money.   

SwordGuy

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3722 on: August 17, 2020, 10:04:30 PM »
Net Worth is what it is.   Don't muck with it to turn it into something else.

FI Income is what it is.   Don't confuse it with Net Worth.   They are two different measurements that are used for two different purposes.

I started up a fun poll for people to track their Race to 100% FI a while back.  I included examples of what counts and what doesn't.

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/throw-down-the-gauntlet/race-to-100-fi!/

Bateaux

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3723 on: August 17, 2020, 10:27:37 PM »
With no clue as how to turn this jumbled mess into a paycheck replacement, I'm going to move the goal posts out another 500K and see if that brings more clarity.   1.5 million was gonna be it.  Silly me.  Then 2 million.  Nope not a clue yet.  Then 2.5 million.  Nope, if anything I'm more nervous than ever.  Moving on to 3 million. That's got to be it right?  We'll see.  Probably more an age now than a number. Everthing gets easier taxwise at 55.  1077 days to go.

SwordGuy

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3724 on: August 17, 2020, 10:34:33 PM »
With no clue as how to turn this jumbled mess into a paycheck replacement, I'm going to move the goal posts out another 500K and see if that brings more clarity.   1.5 million was gonna be it.  Silly me.  Then 2 million.  Nope not a clue yet.  Then 2.5 million.  Nope, if anything I'm more nervous than ever.  Moving on to 3 million. That's got to be it right?  We'll see.  Probably more an age now than a number. Everthing gets easier taxwise at 55.  1077 days to go.
@Bateaux ,
How about entering a case study that shows your expenses, income streams as you understand them, and your assets?  Plus any goals you have that are relevant.

Pop a link to it here and I know most of us would be more than happy helping you understand how to turn it into sustainable income.

Buffaloski Boris

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3725 on: August 17, 2020, 10:55:44 PM »
IMO, if you're at that level and still working, you're doing it wrong.




As in running the wrong race. 


I think "winning" is present tense, and "won" is past tense.  Winning is pleasurable to the ego, while retirement presents the fear of dealing with unknowns without a safety net or a familiar roadmap.  And there's also the fear of being with your mate 24/7, without the hormones of a newly wed couple.  ;)

There are these little blue pills you can get..:)

Thatís not mustachian.  You donít get blue pills that cost $40, you get white pills for $1.

Bateaux

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3726 on: August 17, 2020, 10:59:20 PM »
With no clue as how to turn this jumbled mess into a paycheck replacement, I'm going to move the goal posts out another 500K and see if that brings more clarity.   1.5 million was gonna be it.  Silly me.  Then 2 million.  Nope not a clue yet.  Then 2.5 million.  Nope, if anything I'm more nervous than ever.  Moving on to 3 million. That's got to be it right?  We'll see.  Probably more an age now than a number. Everthing gets easier taxwise at 55.  1077 days to go.
@Bateaux ,
How about entering a case study that shows your expenses, income streams as you understand them, and your assets?  Plus any goals you have that are relevant.

Pop a link to it here and I know most of us would be more than happy helping you understand how to turn it into sustainable income.

There is just too much chaos in the system.  Maybe at the end of the year we'll try and come up with a plan.  I appreciate the offer and when the time comes, I'll be very open to opinion.  I value your experiences far more than talking to some dimshit at Edward Jones or Ameritrade.  The changes have to be made internal first.  We'll see what January brings and go from there.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2020, 11:00:53 PM by Bateaux »

GreenEggs

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3727 on: August 17, 2020, 11:21:21 PM »
With no clue as how to turn this jumbled mess into a paycheck replacement, I'm going to move the goal posts out another 500K and see if that brings more clarity.   1.5 million was gonna be it.  Silly me.  Then 2 million.  Nope not a clue yet.  Then 2.5 million.  Nope, if anything I'm more nervous than ever.  Moving on to 3 million. That's got to be it right?  We'll see.  Probably more an age now than a number. Everthing gets easier taxwise at 55.  1077 days to go.
@Bateaux ,
How about entering a case study that shows your expenses, income streams as you understand them, and your assets?  Plus any goals you have that are relevant.

Pop a link to it here and I know most of us would be more than happy helping you understand how to turn it into sustainable income.

There is just too much chaos in the system.  Maybe at the end of the year we'll try and come up with a plan.  I appreciate the offer and when the time comes, I'll be very open to opinion.  I value your experiences far more than talking to some dimshit at Edward Jones or Ameritrade.  The changes have to be made internal first.  We'll see what January brings and go from there.




1077 day isn't all that long.  It'll fly by. 

soccerluvof4

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3728 on: August 18, 2020, 04:51:55 AM »
With no clue as how to turn this jumbled mess into a paycheck replacement, I'm going to move the goal posts out another 500K and see if that brings more clarity.   1.5 million was gonna be it.  Silly me.  Then 2 million.  Nope not a clue yet.  Then 2.5 million.  Nope, if anything I'm more nervous than ever.  Moving on to 3 million. That's got to be it right?  We'll see.  Probably more an age now than a number. Everthing gets easier taxwise at 55.  1077 days to go.
@Bateaux ,
How about entering a case study that shows your expenses, income streams as you understand them, and your assets?  Plus any goals you have that are relevant.

Pop a link to it here and I know most of us would be more than happy helping you understand how to turn it into sustainable income.

There is just too much chaos in the system.  Maybe at the end of the year we'll try and come up with a plan.  I appreciate the offer and when the time comes, I'll be very open to opinion.  I value your experiences far more than talking to some dimshit at Edward Jones or Ameritrade.  The changes have to be made internal first.  We'll see what January brings and go from there.




1077 day isn't all that long.  It'll fly by.




I missed something, y does turning 55 make taxes easier? Just making sure since I'm in that category I am not missing something! I also agree the 1077 days will fly buy

Dicey

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3729 on: August 18, 2020, 06:39:23 AM »
No way would I work a thousand extra days I didn't need to. You could spend 77 days learning how turn your "jumbled mess into a paycheck replacement" and get the hell out of the rat race. Isn't that the whole point? It kinda sounds like you feel trapped, which might just be an illusion of your own making.

pecunia

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3730 on: August 18, 2020, 08:25:49 AM »
I had a checkup at the doctor yesterday.  It was the first checkup since retiring.  He told me that of the people he has seen that retire 75 percent see their health improve.  The other 25 percent have worked physical jobs and are either worn out or take time to slow down without compensating in other ways.

Hard to put a value on all the hiking and other stuff you guys have been talking about.  The hiking and other stuff can have secondary benefits to be considered.

I want to be in the majority the doctor spoke of.

rmorris50

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3731 on: August 18, 2020, 09:21:13 AM »
NW is kinda useful to feel good about progress in success, but I would not recommend using it to determine FI readiness. I have found lifetime net household cash flow projections much more useful. So I donít even use the 4% rule, too simplistic.

And I am also trapped at work, due to my own making. Itís the whole ďdownsize and retire nowĒ or ďjust work three more years and keep current lifestyleĒ. Plus I also have a lot of change/chaos going on in life. Will be more settled in three years. Choices, choices.


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Exflyboy

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3732 on: August 18, 2020, 09:25:43 AM »
IMO, if you're at that level and still working, you're doing it wrong.




As in running the wrong race. 


I think "winning" is present tense, and "won" is past tense.  Winning is pleasurable to the ego, while retirement presents the fear of dealing with unknowns without a safety net or a familiar roadmap.  And there's also the fear of being with your mate 24/7, without the hormones of a newly wed couple.  ;)

There are these little blue pills you can get..:)

Thatís not mustachian.  You donít get blue pills that cost $40, you get white pills for $1.

I had no idea what they cost.. I will bow to your considerable expertise on the matter..:)

Bateaux

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3733 on: August 18, 2020, 09:35:19 AM »
No way would I work a thousand extra days I didn't need to. You could spend 77 days learning how turn your "jumbled mess into a paycheck replacement" and get the hell out of the rat race. Isn't that the whole point? It kinda sounds like you feel trapped, which might just be an illusion of your own making.

I guess I'm grasping for excuses.  August 1st 2020 is the day I became pension eligible.   In 2012 the company robbed most of the pension and extended employee medical insurance coverage to minimum age 55.  Also if you work till 55 then you can get your 401K without the 10 percent penality.  No need for 72T calculations.

Bateaux

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3734 on: August 18, 2020, 09:37:46 AM »
I had a checkup at the doctor yesterday.  It was the first checkup since retiring.  He told me that of the people he has seen that retire 75 percent see their health improve.  The other 25 percent have worked physical jobs and are either worn out or take time to slow down without compensating in other ways.

Hard to put a value on all the hiking and other stuff you guys have been talking about.  The hiking and other stuff can have secondary benefits to be considered.

I want to be in the majority the doctor spoke of.

Having the body for an active lifestyle is important.

lhamo

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3735 on: August 18, 2020, 09:39:26 AM »

I missed something, y does turning 55 make taxes easier? Just making sure since I'm in that category I am not missing something!

Most employer-managed retirement plans allow you to take penalty-free (but not tax free) disbursals if you "separate from service" in the year you turn 55 or later.  You have to check the details of your plan to see what type of disbursals are allowed -- some only allow a single lump sum withdrawal.  The rule does not apply to IRA rollovers.

https://tickertape.tdameritrade.com/retirement/rule-of-55-withdrawals-15977

Bateaux

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3736 on: August 18, 2020, 09:42:28 AM »
NW is kinda useful to feel good about progress in success, but I would not recommend using it to determine FI readiness. I have found lifetime net household cash flow projections much more useful. So I donít even use the 4% rule, too simplistic.

And I am also trapped at work, due to my own making. Itís the whole ďdownsize and retire nowĒ or ďjust work three more years and keep current lifestyleĒ. Plus I also have a lot of change/chaos going on in life. Will be more settled in three years. Choices, choices.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Those golden handcuffs are coated in kid leather at times.   At 28 years working for one company, going to work is like brushing your teeth.  You don't really have to think all that much about it. My Arkansas bikepacking trip next month and October backpacking trip are a hell of a lot harder.  Some vacation.

Buffaloski Boris

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3737 on: August 18, 2020, 09:56:56 AM »
IMO, if you're at that level and still working, you're doing it wrong.




As in running the wrong race. 


I think "winning" is present tense, and "won" is past tense.  Winning is pleasurable to the ego, while retirement presents the fear of dealing with unknowns without a safety net or a familiar roadmap.  And there's also the fear of being with your mate 24/7, without the hormones of a newly wed couple.  ;)

There are these little blue pills you can get..:)

Thatís not mustachian.  You donít get blue pills that cost $40, you get white pills for $1.

I had no idea what they cost.. I will bow to your considerable expertise on the matter..:)

Lulz. I really do think I should briefly hijack the thread and have a fireside chat about Erectile Dysfunction and how darn near 100% of guys have it. Thatíd be fun.

Exflyboy

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3738 on: August 18, 2020, 10:51:58 AM »
IMO, if you're at that level and still working, you're doing it wrong.




As in running the wrong race. 


I think "winning" is present tense, and "won" is past tense.  Winning is pleasurable to the ego, while retirement presents the fear of dealing with unknowns without a safety net or a familiar roadmap.  And there's also the fear of being with your mate 24/7, without the hormones of a newly wed couple.  ;)

There are these little blue pills you can get..:)

Thatís not mustachian.  You donít get blue pills that cost $40, you get white pills for $1.

I had no idea what they cost.. I will bow to your considerable expertise on the matter..:)

Lulz. I really do think I should briefly hijack the thread and have a fireside chat about Erectile Dysfunction and how darn near 100% of guys have it. Thatíd be fun.

Yeah, seriously, I'm sure its one of those dirty little secrets that isn't talked about.

pecunia

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3739 on: August 18, 2020, 11:03:32 AM »
I had a checkup at the doctor yesterday.  It was the first checkup since retiring.  He told me that of the people he has seen that retire 75 percent see their health improve.  The other 25 percent have worked physical jobs and are either worn out or take time to slow down without compensating in other ways.

Hard to put a value on all the hiking and other stuff you guys have been talking about.  The hiking and other stuff can have secondary benefits to be considered.

I want to be in the majority the doctor spoke of.

Having the body for an active lifestyle is important.

I'm sure most of those people were older than 55.  That looks like a magic number when you can bid them adieu.  Working a little longer may buy you some great value for the next 30 years after you retire.

secondcor521

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3740 on: August 18, 2020, 01:49:18 PM »
No way would I work a thousand extra days I didn't need to. You could spend 77 days learning how turn your "jumbled mess into a paycheck replacement" and get the hell out of the rat race. Isn't that the whole point? It kinda sounds like you feel trapped, which might just be an illusion of your own making.

I guess I'm grasping for excuses.  August 1st 2020 is the day I became pension eligible.   In 2012 the company robbed most of the pension and extended employee medical insurance coverage to minimum age 55.  Also if you work till 55 then you can get your 401K without the 10 percent penality.  No need for 72T calculations.

When I was at your stage, I was combing through HR policies and benefits looking for any way to shorten my time at work.  It doesn't sound like you're too fed up from work yet, so that's a difference between my situation and yours.

However, you can maybe shave off some of those 1,077 days.

As lhamo pointed out, the no-penalty 401(k) rule is separation from service in the year in which you turn 55.  So depending on when your birthday is, you could retire on January 1st at 54-something and still use that rule.  If you haven't already, it would also behoove you to check your 401(k) plan documents to ensure that they will allow you to access your money on the schedule that works for you.  While federal law says they have to allow penalty-free withdrawals, some plans restrict the timing and amounts of your withdrawals.

You could also use up all your vacation and maybe even do a FMLA or personal leave in the months prior to the January 1st of the year in which you turn 55 to shorten it even more.  I did something like that where I did a personal leave of absence 10 weeks prior to my last juicy stock option vest.  I was still employed so the stock options were still intact.  You could do a similar thing with your 401(k) plan.

While 72(t) plans aren't common, the calculations are literally fifth grade math.  Maybe even fourth grade.  If you don't want to do the 72(t) for other reasons, that would make sense, but doing literally two minutes of calculations once a year doesn't seem like much of a reason.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2020, 01:51:45 PM by secondcor521 »

pecunia

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3741 on: August 18, 2020, 01:57:16 PM »
I've known people to use time just before retirement to get work done on themselves like knee replacements, etc.  They were not only able to take advantage of the good insurance while they still had it, but they were also not there as they were healing up.  Perhaps, this could be an option to use some of the pre-55 time.

Dicey

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3742 on: August 18, 2020, 02:03:09 PM »
I've known people to use time just before retirement to get work done on themselves like knee replacements, etc.  They were not only able to take advantage of the good insurance while they still had it, but they were also not there as they were healing up.  Perhaps, this could be an option to use some of the pre-55 time.
I like the way you think...

soccerluvof4

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3743 on: August 18, 2020, 03:45:47 PM »
I've known people to use time just before retirement to get work done on themselves like knee replacements, etc.  They were not only able to take advantage of the good insurance while they still had it, but they were also not there as they were healing up.  Perhaps, this could be an option to use some of the pre-55 time.
I like the way you think...


Ditto-makes alot of sense!

rmorris50

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3744 on: August 18, 2020, 06:00:50 PM »
I've known people to use time just before retirement to get work done on themselves like knee replacements, etc.  They were not only able to take advantage of the good insurance while they still had it, but they were also not there as they were healing up.  Perhaps, this could be an option to use some of the pre-55 time.

Unless your spouse keeps working and provides insurance :-P

Bateaux

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3745 on: August 18, 2020, 10:07:59 PM »
No way would I work a thousand extra days I didn't need to. You could spend 77 days learning how turn your "jumbled mess into a paycheck replacement" and get the hell out of the rat race. Isn't that the whole point? It kinda sounds like you feel trapped, which might just be an illusion of your own making.

I guess I'm grasping for excuses.  August 1st 2020 is the day I became pension eligible.   In 2012 the company robbed most of the pension and extended employee medical insurance coverage to minimum age 55.  Also if you work till 55 then you can get your 401K without the 10 percent penality.  No need for 72T calculations.

When I was at your stage, I was combing through HR policies and benefits looking for any way to shorten my time at work.  It doesn't sound like you're too fed up from work yet, so that's a difference between my situation and yours.

However, you can maybe shave off some of those 1,077 days.

As lhamo pointed out, the no-penalty 401(k) rule is separation from service in the year in which you turn 55.  So depending on when your birthday is, you could retire on January 1st at 54-something and still use that rule.  If you haven't already, it would also behoove you to check your 401(k) plan documents to ensure that they will allow you to access your money on the schedule that works for you.  While federal law says they have to allow penalty-free withdrawals, some plans restrict the timing and amounts of your withdrawals.

You could also use up all your vacation and maybe even do a FMLA or personal leave in the months prior to the January 1st of the year in which you turn 55 to shorten it even more.  I did something like that where I did a personal leave of absence 10 weeks prior to my last juicy stock option vest.  I was still employed so the stock options were still intact.  You could do a similar thing with your 401(k) plan.

While 72(t) plans aren't common, the calculations are literally fifth grade math.  Maybe even fourth grade.  If you don't want to do the 72(t) for other reasons, that would make sense, but doing literally two minutes of calculations once a year doesn't seem like much of a reason.

 I knew that the year you turn 55 is what makes you qualified.  But for my company medical coverage I must work till 55.  My 7 weeks a year of paid time off can make that easier.

Fomerly known as something

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3746 on: August 19, 2020, 06:28:43 AM »
Iím in the same boat as Bateaux, but with my Federal special category pension with lifetime health insurance, my age is 47.  I have 59 months to go.

 I could FIRE now in theory, but my inner bag lady says no way.  I ran the numbers a few years ago and the difference in pension and benefits is like giving away $1.5. Million.   In reality, I likely wonít do much at work in 2025 so itís more like 53 months.  I wonít be expected to take on any long term projects because they would just need to be passed onto someone else.  I also could take leave without pay for my last 6 months plus Iíll have unused leave for at least another month that I may or may not take.  (Unused leave gets paid out).  Iím currently working through logistics of a change in scenery to make the life side more interesting for the next few years in order to make the months pass quicker.

soccerluvof4

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3747 on: August 19, 2020, 08:03:09 AM »
Nibbled me some more to put in cash this morning but still 25% below my yearly set withdrawal. With Nasdaq and S&P hitting new highs and only 25 stocks hitting new highs made sense to sell some VTI now. Goes Higher still have room to take. This market it crazy. End of the shortest Bear ever. A lot of cash still on the sidelines so market could in reality still go a lot higher. Interesting times to say the least.

Bateaux

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3748 on: August 19, 2020, 08:46:22 AM »
Nibbled me some more to put in cash this morning but still 25% below my yearly set withdrawal. With Nasdaq and S&P hitting new highs and only 25 stocks hitting new highs made sense to sell some VTI now. Goes Higher still have room to take. This market it crazy. End of the shortest Bear ever. A lot of cash still on the sidelines so market could in reality still go a lot higher. Interesting times to say the least.

We still have about a million exposed to this market.   FOMO and greed keeps me in.  This economy will not stand on it's own anytime soon.  It's all about more stimulus (debt).  Who is gling to be the adult and take the punch bowl away?  Will the Biden administration put on big boy pants and focus on debt?  I doubt it.   So this works as long as it works.

GreenEggs

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3749 on: August 19, 2020, 08:57:49 AM »
Nibbled me some more to put in cash this morning but still 25% below my yearly set withdrawal. With Nasdaq and S&P hitting new highs and only 25 stocks hitting new highs made sense to sell some VTI now. Goes Higher still have room to take. This market it crazy. End of the shortest Bear ever. A lot of cash still on the sidelines so market could in reality still go a lot higher. Interesting times to say the least.




After watching how slow VTI has recovered I can't help but reconsider the reasoning for choosing it over something like VUG or QQQ.  It seems like the bigger players have done so much better recently, actually the past 10 years according to portfoliovisulizer.com.