Author Topic: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner  (Read 9548 times)

AlanStache

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #150 on: May 18, 2022, 06:56:32 AM »
First ebike trip that would have been a car errand yesterday. Woo hoo!

Got mine ~1month ago, been ridding to work when it is not raining.  Good stuff, much nicer than driving.   

Car Jack

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #151 on: May 18, 2022, 07:42:30 AM »
So an update from me, you know, the guy who takes into account where electricity comes from and uses the Tesla calculator to figure out that his Crosstrek costs significantly less than a Model 3 per mile.

Well, things change.

Two major things have come about for me and my region.  First, my gas discounts have all but dried up.  Back when I last posted, my supermarket (Stop & Shop) would run periodic promos where buying a Visa gift card would get me triple gas points.  What's that mean dollar wise?  Well, I spend about $6 for activation of a Visa gift card.  Stop & Shop gives me 3 times the points or $1.50 per gallon discount for doing this.  So at the gas station back then, my average gas cost was 88 cents.  Now, my Crosstrek 6 speed manual all wheel drive gets on average now about 30 mpg.  So I was looking at 2.9 cents per mile.  Now, I'm seeing that a model 3 uses about 0.34 kWHr per mile.  My electricity costs 20 cents per kWHr, so that Tesla cost me 6.8 cents to go that mile.

But now, with the Stop & Shop discounts dried up, I only get the Shell 5 cents off.  I've left off the credit card discounts which this quarter on my Citi Sears card are 10%.  Ignoring those, gas instead of 88 cents for me is $4.79 as of yesterday.  So cost is around 5 times what it used to be or 15 cents a mile in my Crosstrek.  Electricity went up 10%, so 22 cents a kWHr so the Tesla costs about 7.5 cents a mile.  EV now wins.

I actually started looking at EVs.  I drove a Kia EV6 AWD yesterday.  Compared with the Model S I drove, I found it vastly superior in quality, fit and finish and most important to me, ease of use.  With little help from the sales person, I was able to drive the thing, adjust the HVAC stuff, regen amount, radio on a short test drive.  Without the sales person actually doing all of this in the model S, I could do none of this while paying attention to the road.  The Kia is half the price of a model S. 

Now the big roadblock to me is that with an injured back that I need to take care of, I'm not getting in a Bolt or Leaf or Mini.  It's got to be more mid sized or bigger with a relatively compliant ride.  The S and Kia meet this.  I'm sure the new Cadillac opening orders tomorrow would beat these easily.  But the price tag is just hitting me in the face.  $60k to $100k doesn't sit right with me.  The most I've ever spent on a brand new car is $32k, which is tied with a 98 Audi and an 03 Wrangler unlimited.  So spending pretty much double that or more is a tough sell.  Can I afford it?  Easily.  But my life has been very much Boglehead geared and even when I owned a racecar, I got free track time by instructing and the car was a light (1600 pounds) Honda CRX former SCCA racecar I bought from the original builder for $4k.  Cost for me was gas and a set of tires a year.  Anyways, way off topic.  I guess I'd have to think real hard about getting an EV, but I am considering it.  I can buy a lot of gas for $60k.

Of course, a set of solar panels on the roof could potentially help.  In my state, installation of a system is free because the state pays 20 years worth of electricity up front.  But having fought with roof leaks and incompetent roofers for decades, that isn't something I'd want to do.

RWD

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #152 on: May 18, 2022, 08:18:08 AM »
But now, with the Stop & Shop discounts dried up, I only get the Shell 5 cents off.  I've left off the credit card discounts which this quarter on my Citi Sears card are 10%.  Ignoring those, gas instead of 88 cents for me is $4.79 as of yesterday.  So cost is around 5 times what it used to be or 15 cents a mile in my Crosstrek.  Electricity went up 10%, so 22 cents a kWHr so the Tesla costs about 7.5 cents a mile.  EV now wins.
There are significant maintenance savings with an EV as well.

AccidentialMustache

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #153 on: May 18, 2022, 10:10:24 PM »
There are significant maintenance savings with an EV as well.

Unfortunately some manufacturers are going tesla-wannabe and, well, it could be going better. When it isn't going better, you're forced to drive a gas car instead (loaner or not).

Not that I'd trade the EV for a gasser, but I might consider trading the EV for a different EV if this keeps up.

It's too bad because it is a fantastic car... when it works and there aren't any issues. Like carplay disconnecting or going zombie. Or glass that needs re-glued. Or possibly issues that might turn into a recall with the included charger (which makes me wonder if we should switch to using it, in case it is a use-based failure, rather than our existing EVSE), or the high voltage junction box. Or the passenger door that doesn't seem to be willing to unlock/open even with the fob present (but the rear passenger door will!).

NorCal

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #154 on: May 19, 2022, 07:03:53 AM »
There are significant maintenance savings with an EV as well.

Unfortunately some manufacturers are going tesla-wannabe and, well, it could be going better. When it isn't going better, you're forced to drive a gas car instead (loaner or not).

Not that I'd trade the EV for a gasser, but I might consider trading the EV for a different EV if this keeps up.

It's too bad because it is a fantastic car... when it works and there aren't any issues. Like carplay disconnecting or going zombie. Or glass that needs re-glued. Or possibly issues that might turn into a recall with the included charger (which makes me wonder if we should switch to using it, in case it is a use-based failure, rather than our existing EVSE), or the high voltage junction box. Or the passenger door that doesn't seem to be willing to unlock/open even with the fob present (but the rear passenger door will!).

That's disappointing.

Part of the reason I've ruled out some of the nicer new EV's (Mach-E, EV-6, Ioniq) is fear of "1st model year" type issues.  I expect these will eventually be great cars, but manufacturers are racing to push out very new (to them) products, and are bound to run into a number of problems and inconsistencies.  Due to how different EV's are, I think it's going to take them a couple years to iron out some of these issues. 

As an example, I was really looking into the Mach-E, but a very small subset of users had issues with keeping the 12v battery charged.  While it wasn't a lot of people, it turns out a dead 12v battery was bricking the car a long ways from home.  And one poor guy had a tow truck driver hook up the tow cable to the battery and cause something like $28K in damage.  While the 12v battery problem is likely just a software issue, and the towing issue could be solved with $0.5 stickers labeling the tow hooks, I'd rather they sort those types of issues out before I buy one. 

RWD

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #155 on: May 19, 2022, 08:50:11 AM »

nereo

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #156 on: May 19, 2022, 09:40:44 AM »
Meanwhile in Norway
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJtzuZIO-88

But EVs don't work well in cold environments! (say half the people I meet here in New England). Also, solar too (say the same sorts of people).  Meanwhile Germany and Norway are leading the charge.

AccidentialMustache

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #157 on: May 19, 2022, 10:11:18 PM »
That's disappointing.

Part of the reason I've ruled out some of the nicer new EV's (Mach-E, EV-6, Ioniq) is fear of "1st model year" type issues.  I expect these will eventually be great cars, but manufacturers are racing to push out very new (to them) products, and are bound to run into a number of problems and inconsistencies.  Due to how different EV's are, I think it's going to take them a couple years to iron out some of these issues. 

As an example, I was really looking into the Mach-E, but a very small subset of users had issues with keeping the 12v battery charged.  While it wasn't a lot of people, it turns out a dead 12v battery was bricking the car a long ways from home.  And one poor guy had a tow truck driver hook up the tow cable to the battery and cause something like $28K in damage.  While the 12v battery problem is likely just a software issue, and the towing issue could be solved with $0.5 stickers labeling the tow hooks, I'd rather they sort those types of issues out before I buy one.

To be honest, it isn't the EV-ness that is giving them the trouble. My problem child is a Mach-E. But it is not the high voltage battery, nor is it the drive motors, the "independent 4-wheel drive" due to one motor per axle, regenerative braking or anything else that is implicitly "different" on an EV than an ICE. All that stuff pretty much... just works.

No the issue is stuff like "we decided to outdo tesla and forgo door handles. Here's your button to push to open it" but the reliability of the push and open is sometimes an issue.

I understand why they went that route. Traditional door handles increase drag. Drag kills range. QED. What I don't understand is why they went the exact route they did. I have to imagine there's alternative (mechanical) designs which would provide the low-drag but classic reliability of a normal door handle with space for a key.

Also, not putting convenient tow points, not giving good 12v battery access to jump it (you have to remove the whole frunk), not giving physical climate controls, etc.

Syonyk

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #158 on: May 20, 2022, 05:59:35 PM »
To be honest, it isn't the EV-ness that is giving them the trouble. My problem child is a Mach-E. But it is not the high voltage battery, nor is it the drive motors, the "independent 4-wheel drive" due to one motor per axle, regenerative braking or anything else that is implicitly "different" on an EV than an ICE. All that stuff pretty much... just works.
[/'quote]

It's the Tesla model.  Falling apart around a working drivetrain.  Except the stuff that's falling apart means you can't still drive it, because your random, non-automotive-rated laptop CPU is overheating and crashing, leaving you without your gear shifter and such.

Quote
I understand why they went that route. Traditional door handles increase drag. Drag kills range. QED. What I don't understand is why they went the exact route they did. I have to imagine there's alternative (mechanical) designs which would provide the low-drag but classic reliability of a normal door handle with space for a key.

The Apple model under Jony Ive: Mechanical systems don't win design awards from your peers.  Even if they work better.  Apple spent 4 years in the Butterfly Keyboard hell, with laptops that had defective keyboards that wouldn't hold up even to the end of warranty, in pursuit of another few tenths of a mm of thin.

A boring, well tested system that "just works" won't attract the attention for being weird that you need to get those elusive design awards - even if the boring system is far better for your actual customers.  Of course, with a modern car, you're still the producer of raw material, because they're all cell connected and doing more big data collection and aggregation than you want any part of...

nereo

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #159 on: May 20, 2022, 06:25:23 PM »
Can someone explain to me in simple terms why an EV needs a 12v battery that somehow cannot draw power from the larger battery pack?  I know the voltage is different, but why canít that be addressed with a voltage adapter?

Syonyk

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #160 on: May 20, 2022, 06:40:10 PM »
Can someone explain to me in simple terms why an EV needs a 12v battery that somehow cannot draw power from the larger battery pack?  I know the voltage is different, but why canít that be addressed with a voltage adapter?

Because something has to turn the high voltage electronics online.  The computers and literally everything except traction motors and HVAC are 12V parts, because that's what car electrical systems run on.  Window motors, switches, etc.

When you request that an EV start up, the 12V computers sanity check the high voltage pack, and only if they're happy with it do they allow the main contactor to close and provide high voltage to the drivetrain systems - it's the EV version of starting the engine.  Once those are powered, there's a DC-DC converter that will maintain the 12V system, replacing the alternator.

I believe some newer Tesla designs pull 12V straight off the high voltage pack, but it's somewhat unclear as to if this actually meets the requirements regarding "loss of prime mover" backup.  I suppose it depends on how it's implemented.  There's a very reasonable requirement that after the prime mover of a vehicle fails (engine, generally), the car still has lights and such (plus, door locks, instrumentation, etc).

A 12V lead acid battery works just fine for this, as long as you don't go about trying to murder it.  Tesla spent a long time trying to murder it: https://www.sevarg.net/2016/10/30/tesla-model-s-12v-battery-analysis/

Chaplin

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #161 on: May 20, 2022, 07:09:15 PM »
Following up on what Syonyk said, some earlier EVs tried to eliminate the 12V battery for exactly the reasons you list (why bother with a big battery) but ran into big problems because you need software to initiate the charging process for the high voltage battery and without the 12V battery to run the computers, starting the charge process when fully drained was a problem.

I gather that eventually there will be moves to 24 and then 48V systems to run the electronics, but there's such a good supply chain of reliable 12V batteries that it's not terribly urgent and only provides a small benefit. There are after-market lithium-ion 12V batteries that some people use to replace the lead-acid battery. I don't fully understand why but it sounds like it's a one-time, high-cost replacement that reduces your chances of having a bricked car due to the 12V battery dying. EVs use the 12V battery differently than an ICE and it leads to less predictable failures. An EV, especially with features like mobile access and blue-tooth door-locking (ICEs are adding these too, so it may become a problem for them), is using the 12V battery continuously at a low draw, whereas an ICE needs the battery occasionally, but for a high-draw engine-start. This led to EVs with 12V batteries dying after two or three years with no warning. Better battery monitoring software has allowed EVs to provide more advanced notice of needing to change the 12V battery. Battery monitoring is challenging because the software has only a few data-points to try to infer what's going on in a complex chemical system, but it has improved a lot.

Syonyk

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #162 on: May 20, 2022, 08:23:51 PM »
I gather that eventually there will be moves to 24 and then 48V systems to run the electronics,

There won't be.  The only good reason for that, reduced starter size and wiring weight, either already doesn't matter (the traction pack in hybrids/PHEVs starts the engine off something other than a legacy 12V starter motor), or is going away soon enough that it won't matter.  You don't even have the wire weight savings to the marker lights, because they're all LED now.

And if you do it, you are now incompatible with literally every aftermarket device for cars.  Not only that, they'll probably fail catastrophically if they're connected.  So, if you want a higher voltage system and want to use the parts bins pieces that everyone uses, you need a 12V rail anyway to run just about everything.

24V or 48V systems for regular cars won't happen.

Quote
There are after-market lithium-ion 12V batteries that some people use to replace the lead-acid battery. I don't fully understand why but it sounds like it's a one-time, high-cost replacement that reduces your chances of having a bricked car due to the 12V battery dying.

They're usually used for weight reduction in fair weather cars that don't really need a strong electrical system - think an autocross Miata.  However, they also neatly solve the problem with Tesla's lead acid murdering system, because Tesla used to (I've no idea if they fixed it and I simply don't care anymore) treat their lead acid battery like a lithium pack, with an intern-grade charging algorithm from someone who'd one read a paragraph about battery charging.

The problem with lithium 12V batteries is that they can't be safely charged when cold - below 45F is iffy, below freezing is generally not recommended.  So you end up needing battery heaters in the 12V system, running off the 12V battery, and I don't think it's a good set of solutions to a problem that simply doesn't exist unless you make it exist.

Of course, if you want to run 30W with the car shut down, because you can't get suspend/resume working properly on your computers, congratulations, you've got the problem.

Quote
This led to EVs with 12V batteries dying after two or three years with no warning.

The car could warn you about voltage drop if it wanted, but the normal indicator of a bad battery (slow cranking when cooler) doesn't exist anymore.  And presumably it will have false positives that will upset people.

Quote
Battery monitoring is challenging because the software has only a few data-points to try to infer what's going on in a complex chemical system, but it has improved a lot.

Lead acid monitoring isn't a hard problem.  It just seems to be hard for "Software First!" companies that believe a car is just a big cell phone.  And that's not just Tesla.

I would like my EV without apps, constant cell connectivity, and behavioral data extraction, TYVM.

===============

I don't need an electric string trimmer, I don't need an electric string trimmer... my gas one works fine... :/

AccidentialMustache

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #163 on: May 20, 2022, 09:54:13 PM »
My understanding of the 12V thing was largely a crash safety issue? You need to be able to drop the high voltage battery out of the system, so that if first responders are trying to pry the car apart to get you out, they don't get electrocuted by a smashed car that has somehow gotten part of it to 800V.

So if the HVB's default state is disconnected/isolated, you need a way to bring it online when "starting" the car. Given the HVB connects with fancy relays, that means electrical power is needed, so the easy/cheap 12V is the default answer.

rockeTree

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #164 on: June 19, 2022, 08:24:29 AM »
Can't stress enough that if you are thinking about electrifying gas appliances you should do the electrical upgrades now. It takes a *while* to get things switched, at least around here electricians are busy and if it's not an emergency you might wait a good while to get work done - so if you don't do it before the water or stove fails, unless you are willing to do without that service for weeks you are going to get a like replacement. I had the electricians out to estimate, and then the master electrician wanted to do a site visit (as far as I could tell to train someone else, which is great but time consuming) and then I got on the list for the actual job to get done. It will be close to three months from inquiry to service, and then I can replace appliances at my leisure. Two tons a year of co2-eq, the fast acting kind, from our gas appliances and I am eager to start chipping away at them.

ebike is going great. I think it's safer in traffic than a regular bike; I can jump off the line at an intersection as fast as most cars util we get to like 15 mph so I am clearing it quickly. The rest of the time I leave the assist on the lowest level, which is not much more than making up for the very heavy bike, unless on a big hill, when I crank it up about halfway.

nereo

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #165 on: July 17, 2022, 04:57:09 AM »
Some progress on our end:
Had a contractor spray foam the decking of our crawlspace (pier and beam foundation) with 4.5Ē closed cell foam (R-30). I know the Ďpreferred methodí would have been to bring the entire crawlspace into the building envelope, but that wasnít practical given how it was built.

What surprised me was the upfront cost was less than the material cost of foil-faced rigid foam (by quite a bit) and my state offers a 50% rebate which will make the final cost come at just under $1/board foot, including labor.


RWD

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #166 on: July 17, 2022, 09:32:29 AM »
Nice!

NorCal

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #167 on: July 22, 2022, 03:09:41 PM »
Updates on my end:

1. My heat-pump is being installed this week.  It's been quite the week to be without AC, and it's a bigger project than I expected.  But I'm excited to get it working.

2. While it's not "stopping burning stuff", I created an electricity budget for myself this year.  Through a combination of energy monitoring and a new whole house fan, I've used about 900kwh less than I expected this year so far.  Just the act of monitoring makes a difference.  This will keep down the size of the solar system I eventually need to install. 

I've previously looked at these energy efficiency projects as one-off things.  Now that I'm finishing some of the bigger items, I can get a picture of an all-in price.  Getting my house off gas and with a solar system large enough to power everything plus an electric car will run me about $40K after incentives.  This includes some "comfort" items like the whole house fan and a humidifier which aren't entirely financially justified.  This will enable me to save about $4,000/yr in utilities and gas.  Since this includes some serious inflation protection on gas and utilities, it's honestly not a bad financial investment.  We could certainly argue about other things being better investments, but I'm very happy with a $4k real annual savings. 

RWD

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #168 on: July 23, 2022, 06:29:50 AM »
10% ROI is nothing to scoff at

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #169 on: July 23, 2022, 06:57:41 AM »
I had some R6 (metric) insulation installed in the roof in May and installed a decent seal on the front door. It's now much easier to keep the living room especially warm, although energy usage hasn't changed much.

The quote to get insulation pumped into the walls was about $3400. It'll cost me around $4-6000 (est) to get solar installed after subsidies. Replacing the hot water heater (my last mains gas appliance) will be anything from $2k-5k.

The complicating factor is that I intend to sell this place in maybe 2-3 years. I'll probably do the water heater as I need to replace the concrete on which it lies, but the others probably won't happen (won't see the money back). That money can go into the next place :)

I've pretty much decided that I'm going to keep driving my 18 year old ICE until it's time to replace it, and that'll be with an EV.

NorCal

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #170 on: July 23, 2022, 12:27:53 PM »
10% ROI is nothing to scoff at

To be fair, I ignored the cost of an EV in my total cost number. So itís not a true 10% return. But Iíd spend some number on a car anyways. So I figured Iíd avoid the annoying internet argument by just ignoring it.

But most people think of their stock market returns on a nominal pre-tax basis.  These expense savings are on a real-basis, and thereís never a tax on expense savings.  In fact, thereís a small post FI tax benefit, as you can avoid some level of withdrawals at your highest marginal tax rate.

So Iím fine calling it a good return without trying to shoehorn it into an apples to apples comparison.

Syonyk

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #171 on: July 23, 2022, 03:49:56 PM »
But most people think of their stock market returns on a nominal pre-tax basis.  These expense savings are on a real-basis, and thereís never a tax on expense savings.  In fact, thereís a small post FI tax benefit, as you can avoid some level of withdrawals at your highest marginal tax rate.

Yeah... that's about how I feel with some of my stuff too.  It's hard to generate an exact "ROI" number all-in when you're doing things like solar, an EV, etc.  But I can damned sure work towards reducing my "minimal monthly spend."  And that's got value regardless of what the market is doing.

rockeTree

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #172 on: August 09, 2022, 01:20:45 PM »
After much discussion between my electrician and my local utility, they have decided I can't upgrade my service to allow me to #ElectrifyEverything unless I significantly change the layout of the finished basement, which is not feasible right now. They also note that the same issue will come up for a solar roof, and for now say I can't go past replacing the gas stove and water heater. Frustrating but I will do what I can and wait for my family member to not need the basement/different technology/any changes to the code that might allow me to do this more easily.  It does seem like my conversations with them have helped the company figure out how and why people are trying to do this sort of thing, so I will call that a small win.

Syonyk

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #173 on: August 09, 2022, 02:19:47 PM »
What are the specific issues?  100A service or something?

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #174 on: August 09, 2022, 02:24:12 PM »
Yeah. There are rules about inside and outside locations that would be permissible for 200A and my narrow townhouse does not have any compliant spaces unless I take out the bedroom down there or brick up a window, neither of which is a good call right now. Evidently the existing 100A would not be allowed to be installed where it is now if it were new, but is not unsafe as is.

All the old rust belt cities are full of attached houses, so I am hopeful that reasonable workarounds will be coming with all the increased incentives for heat pumps and residential solar. Hard to imagine that the answer will be that we can't retrofit these houses at all.

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #175 on: August 09, 2022, 02:33:21 PM »
Yeah. There are rules about inside and outside locations that would be permissible for 200A and my narrow townhouse does not have any compliant spaces unless I take out the bedroom down there or brick up a window, neither of which is a good call right now. Evidently the existing 100A would not be allowed to be installed where it is now if it were new, but is not unsafe as is.

Ok.  For solar, you're limited to 16A backfeed (3.8kW) on that busbar, but you could upgrade the panel to 200A, just not the service (so a 200A busbar and 100A main disconnect) to free up all the ampacity you want for solar backfeeding.  Obviously, you couldn't go past 100A backfeed, but... that's an awful lot of solar, and you can play DC/AC ratio games there if you want.

A heat pump hot water heater shouldn't be a problem.  They don't pull much, and are worth 10-15% of your electrical use in most homes.

Same would go for mini splits.  They just don't pull that much power.

You might do an NEC Load Calculation, both primary and alternate methods for your house, to see how much headroom you have for things.  The problem is that they're absolute rubbish nonsense, as they assume incandescent lighting, and our 2k sq ft home "needs" 6kW for lighting alone, per those calculations.

I'd look at putting a large panel in, with 100A service, to free up room for solar, though.

rockeTree

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #176 on: August 09, 2022, 02:40:54 PM »
Oh interesting I didn't know I could upgrade the panel without upgrading the service.

After discussing the age of the AC and the other existing loads (mostly LED, a couple CFLs, some fans and laptops and a tv and kitchen stuff) the master electrician allowed as how I can have the heat pump water heater and induction stove with no changes except running the circuits and a different/additional grounding wire, he just doesn't want me to get any plans for solar PV, a heat pump, or a car charger just yet.

RWD

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #177 on: August 09, 2022, 03:04:39 PM »
[...] free up all the ampacity
I love that this is an actual word

nereo

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #178 on: August 09, 2022, 03:08:30 PM »
[...] free up all the ampacity
I love that this is an actual word
Had the same exact thought when I read the post. 

Syonyk

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #179 on: August 09, 2022, 03:17:24 PM »
Oh interesting I didn't know I could upgrade the panel without upgrading the service.

It's unusual but could be done.  As long as the main breaker remains 100A, nothing from the service side needs change - but you can put a bigger panel in to have more room to backfeed stuff.  I know people doing this locally (one project I'm helping with has done exactly this for one of their subpanels to have the ampacity needed - he replaced a 200A subpanel with a 225A subpanel, but derated the main OCPD on it to 150A).

Quote
...he just doesn't want me to get any plans for solar PV, a heat pump, or a car charger just yet.

PV, as noted, upgrade the panel without touching the service and you'll be fine.  For a car charger a 240V/20A circuit (16A continuous, 3.8kW) is entirely sufficient for almost all needs, without being nearly so hard on the electrical service.  The heat pump... yeah, that's starting to make things interesting, especially with an electric stove too.  Though modern mini splits are really quite efficient.

Cramming all of that into a 100A panel would be a challenge, and it's always a bit interesting as to what would be permitted or not by the inspector.

Since it sounds like you can't get rid of gas service entirely with your panel, I'd probably leave the stove alone (I do so like cooking on gas), put a heat pump water heater in, and try to get some mini splits and an EV charger (20A) wedged in.  Or, replace your existing air conditioner with a heat pump and keep the furnace for a dual fuel setup in the winter...

But do the NEC load calculations yourself and see where they come up.  Of course, they're as likely to say you "need" 500A service as anything else...

A neighbor's big solar array is hopefully coming online this week, if inspections go well!  21kW of big A-frame.  And I know some other people getting solar out here too.  Now to ramp up the production numbers of DIY installs!

rockeTree

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #180 on: August 09, 2022, 04:34:07 PM »
I'm so cheered by this solar possibility. I am not that bothered by the charger - I don't own an EV (other than the bike, of course), though my partner would like to at some point, and I am hopeful that at that time there will be sufficient rapid chargers out in the world that a home one that's more than just plugging it into the existing outside socket won't be needed. And heating was always going to wait a little longer since a) it's expensive and b) the existing unit was nearly new when we moved in and is quite efficient, especially with the whole heavily insulated attached house thing. It's only used at all 3-4 months a year. I just wanted to explain the whole long term plan to the electrician so as to avoid having to redo things because they did not know what the next project was.

Stove is going to happen this year - the existing one is old and was never nice, and I live with a disabled adult who cooks often and sometimes recklessly, so I want the safety and the better indoor air quality. Water heating will happen this year, existing one is old and they fail suddenly and there are very good incentives for the heat pump ones in my area. And now solar can happen when the roof needs replacing, which will be 5-6 years at a guess. In the interval I can work on getting folks to use the clothesline :-)

Ampacity! Delightful.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2022, 04:37:35 PM by rockeTree »

eyesonthehorizon

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #181 on: August 09, 2022, 07:04:56 PM »
Stove is going to happen this year - the existing one is old and was never nice, and I live with a disabled adult who cooks often and sometimes recklessly, so I want the safety and the better indoor air quality. Water heating will happen this year, existing one is old and they fail suddenly and there are very good incentives for the heat pump ones in my area. And now solar can happen when the roof needs replacing, which will be 5-6 years at a guess. In the interval I can work on getting folks to use the clothesline :-)
Cheered to read this. Gas was a great upgrade in its day but can't touch induction for speed, cleanliness or pollution, plus it's just as immediately responsive to adjustments with less waste heat lost into the room (although if you want to reverse the latter two somewhat, pull out the cast iron.) You'll love it & have a lot less to worry about with regard to your other household cooks.

I've been holding my breath to see if the decade-long extension of renewable energy tax credits via the Inflation Reduction Act gets through the House. It doesn't drive any of my decisions but I wouldn't mind the discount. Also curious what effect that may have on demand & by extension, pricing.

AccidentialMustache

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #182 on: August 10, 2022, 05:07:21 PM »
So we hit a year with the (still problem-child, but less problem child) EV.

Mileage before: 8k/yr on a 2009 fit.
Mileage after: 7k/yr on the EV, 2k on the fit.

Not bad. Hopefully next year we look more like 8k/1k, assuming the EV isn't in the shop for a month+ over the year.

Not a ton of other gains to be had here -- already have no gas service to the house, mower is battery electric, no snow blower we do it by hand. Air sealing/insulation/energy audit is on the list. Checking if solar makes sense yet (shade -, tech +, inflation -, standing seam roof +) is also there, but later.

Sanitary Engineer

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #183 on: August 11, 2022, 08:24:40 AM »
Just bought the induction stove last night.  We were stretching to get a handsome version from Bertazzoni, but used 1/3 of what we were saving to jump on an ebike purchase (does buring less calories count as not burning stuff?) So we went with the cheapest option to hold us over until we save up for the fancy version again (maybe we can hold out for an AGA). The propane bill for the stove hasn't dropped below $130 in 4 months.  I can't wait to see how much cooking costs without pilot lights and propane leaks. (I am hoping it is in the $30 range).

I have also been bucking up all our wood this year with a plug in electric chainsaw.  It sucks, but I have always disliked chain sawing -I know it is way easier than hand sawing, but I always wish it was a lightsaber that slide right through the log like a hot knife through cheesecake. Putting up wood also isn't exactly not burning stuff, since we will be burning a lot, but I am not running a two stroke engine.

NorCal

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #184 on: August 11, 2022, 09:20:07 AM »
Just bought the induction stove last night.  We were stretching to get a handsome version from Bertazzoni, but used 1/3 of what we were saving to jump on an ebike purchase (does buring less calories count as not burning stuff?) So we went with the cheapest option to hold us over until we save up for the fancy version again (maybe we can hold out for an AGA). The propane bill for the stove hasn't dropped below $130 in 4 months.  I can't wait to see how much cooking costs without pilot lights and propane leaks. (I am hoping it is in the $30 range).

I have also been bucking up all our wood this year with a plug in electric chainsaw.  It sucks, but I have always disliked chain sawing -I know it is way easier than hand sawing, but I always wish it was a lightsaber that slide right through the log like a hot knife through cheesecake. Putting up wood also isn't exactly not burning stuff, since we will be burning a lot, but I am not running a two stroke engine.

You should do better than that.  I have a standard electric stove.  My electric stovetop uses about 10kwh / month.  While my home energy monitor doesn't have a good detection on the oven, I'm guessing it's about 30-40kwh / month.

At my billing rates of ~$0.15/kwh, that's about $7/month for cooking.  And induction is more efficient than mine.  Although you may cook more than I do.

Sanitary Engineer

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #185 on: August 11, 2022, 12:29:27 PM »
That would be excellent! I'll see if I can get it together enough to monitor the stove circuit and report back the cooking cost when we make the switch.

AccidentialMustache

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Re: #StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner
« Reply #186 on: August 11, 2022, 06:45:42 PM »
Our power was 230 last month. That includes the induction stove... and hvac (heat pump) and hot water (resistive) and fridge and chest freezer and dehumidifier and all our PCs and the EV's power (600 mi / 3mi/kwh * 0.12$/kwh = $24 "electrons") and lights and washer and dryer (if we used it, which we probably didn't).

What I'm saying is you'll likely almost not notice the induction stove being added to your electric bill, unless you try to heat the house using your oven, or humidify it by boiling water on the stovetop... literally all day.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!