Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!

[Car Jack]

Politicians make talking points about crap.  "Do you want to be a socialist country like Cuba?  Of course not!  They're so horrible and have a dictator and are hated by everything.  Well, guess what?  They have free, state run health care.  Not just health insurance....health care.  Get sick, go see a doctor.  All done.  No EoB in the mail, no copay, no bill because you haven't reached your deductible, no out of network lab work.  Horrible, right?".

[Bateaux]

The shortest distance between two points is a straight line.  Unfortunately with the US health care system you have to zigzag a gauntlet of hands reaching for dollars.   Your doctor and nurse are at the end of the hallway waiting to help you.  But, to get there the hallway is lined with thieves who rob you along the way.  They are called corporations.

[Bateaux]

I’ve seen it happen time and again with people who sell and leave California, only to realize a few years later that they miss certain thing about their former home. The problem is that when you do that you are often locked out of ever coming back due to real estate inflation in HCOL areas with respect to everywhere else. We have thrown around the idea of moving to a cheaper location, but that plan always includes renting our current house out and renting on the other end for a while. I don’t want to make any moves that would be difficult to reverse, just in case.

I like that plan Ysette9.  If you rent your house out, you can always come back. Keep your foot in the door.  We also live in a HCOL area, and I'm from the beach area, so I've seen the one way move to a lower COL area many times over the years. 

Last year DH and I were in a tiny town near Munich, and an American couple about our age pulled in on bicycles with pack gear.  Now, that's not the norm.  We started chatting, with the usual "Where are you from? (oh, I know someone from there...)" and "What are you doing here?".  They were quite interesting.   They were on a 2 week bicycle ride.  They lived in France.  They had sold everything they owned in the Midwest,  to live their dream of retiring in France.  They'd been in France about 2 years, and the panache and excitement had worn off.  The cultural differences were exhausting to them.  They wanted to go home, and there was nothing to go back to. They sold their house and all belongings, thinking that the France dream was their forever choice.   They were very unhappy.   I imagine that by now, they've gone home and figured out something, but we caught them just about the time that the reality was staring them straight on.    I hope they found a way to be happy.   

Sometime I fantasize about buying a vacation home and moving to Europe,  I've even talked to real estate companies in 3 EU countries.   Just to suss it out, mind you.  For a 250K Euro buy in, you can get EU citizenship in Greece.  I could easily get that for one of my rentals and keep everything else I own/other rental income intact.  But then reality sinks in... I ALREADY live in paradise.  I ALREADY have a fantastically amazing life.  I ALREADY travel as much as I want to.  A home like that would complicate my life beyond imagination.   I don't need to be worrying about pipes or roof leaks or burglaries in a home that's half way around the world.  What am I thinking?   It's just such a fun fantasy, that's all...

250K to get Greek citizenship.   Hmmmm.   Weather is always nice there.

[JoJoP]

Yup, Greece is sunny all the time and the food is terrific.

https://qz.com/120839/for-just-e250000-you-can-buy-a-home-in-greece-and-become-an-eu-resident/
https://www.hiddengreece.net/
https://www.realtor.com/international/gr/
https://www.thenationalherald.com/165632/greece-sold-foreigners-1684-golden-visas-residency-citizenship/

[MaybeBabyMustache]

As much as I love discussing politics on this forum (hahaha), back to the main theme. I check our net worth monthly, so here's where we stand at the end of March/beginning of April.


We're at $3.6M*. In an unexpected twist, our bay area primary residence is down slightly in value, while our Oregon coast vacation home is up slightly. The to offset each other. We are not quite at $1.5M in 401k values (currently at $1.39M), but I'm hoping to be there in a few months.

(*edited, because I caught an error in my tracker. I was moving money between accounts, and magically double counted it. I wish. This is a more explainable gain of $38k month over month.)

Your situation  reminds me of my sister in Palo Alto. She is worth about 3.3M but 2M of that is in her paid off house.  She and her husband live quite comfortably on 4% of the 1.3M + about 60k in SS.
BUT whenever I tell her she could live a lot better by selling her condo and moving to a lcol, she just laughs and says she loves the weather in Palo Alto.

In all fairness, Palo Alto is a gorgeous, wonderful town with lovely weather. I live near there and worked in PA for four years or so. Those years allowed me to really appreciate how awesome it is.
That said, I didn’t have kids back then. Many people move there for the schools but I’d be concerned about putting mine in that pressure cooker environment.
For retirement though? I’d stay put in her place as well.

Confirming that Palo Alto is great, and I would avoid personally sending my kid to school there due to pressure. Where we are at is bad enough, but a definite step down from PA. And, while the weather is great (not this year, for whatever reason), we are staying put until the kids are out of school, if at all possible. If a major situation cropped up that required us to move, we would. We've moved once with kids, and it was hard on them. I'm not saying they couldn't recover or move on, because kids are pretty resilient. But, I have one kid who is a bit of a loner & finally found a bit of a circle. If it can be avoided, we will stay in place for six more years.

[Exflyboy]

This is one of these issues where we can have our cake and eat it too. If you look at what rich countries spend as a % of GDP on healthcare, the US is an outlier in that we spend about twice what other countries to. That is for a broken system that leaves people bankrupt, doesn’t cover everyone, and doesn’t have better health outcomes. So if we could wave a magical wand and have a system like Canada or france or Finland or whatever, we could cover everyone better and save a bunch of money at the same time.

I agree that it is very frustrating that our politicians can’t seem to get this right. I think it isn’t quite correct to claim that both sides are digging in their heels and don’t want to allow the other side a win. Obama and his crowd tried long and hard to get the other side to talk and compromise and they refused. Trump and his crowd tried very hard to not include the other wide in their half-baked attempt at repeal-and-replace. I’d like to think that the Dems would come to the table and negotiate in good faith if a halfway reasonable proposal were put on the table; unfortunately we haven’t been able to test that yet.


***
For some reason the really great wiki article with tables of healthcare expenditures as a % of GDP are not easy to find on my phone right now. Here is a different source.

https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Health/Health-expenditure%2C-total/%25-of-GDP#-amount

I think your argument ignores the real reason for high HC costs.. The HC sector is 12% of the entire stock market. The Stock Market grows on average 10% per year so your portfolio is growing at 1.2% per year due to the HC sector.

If you have a portfolio of $10M in stocks that means you will make $120,000 per year due to Healthcare.

in other words if you're really rich its in your best interests for HC to be as expensive as possible.

Who makes donations to politicians?.. Really rich people.. Follow the money.

Just cus I'm paranoid doesn't mean they are not out to get me!

[pecunia]

- SNIP -

I think your argument ignores the real reason for high HC costs.. The HC sector is 12% of the entire stock market. The Stock Market grows on average 10% per year so your portfolio is growing at 1.2% per year due to the HC sector.

If you have a portfolio of $10M in stocks that means you will make $120,000 per year due to Healthcare.

in other words if you're really rich its in your best interests for HC to be as expensive as possible.

Who makes donations to politicians?.. Really rich people.. Follow the money.

Just cus I'm paranoid doesn't mean they are not out to get me!

Think a little bit.  That health care is like a parasite on the American economy.  Much of it is not producing additional goods and services.  It is sucking away resources that are produced by others.  Now, if that was changed so that this burden was reduced, all those resources would be freed up.  Where would that money go?  I'll bet some of it would be spent on "real" goods and services.  I'll bet the stock market would benefit.  That money would be available to invest in new needed infrastructure, in factories, in aid to education, etc.  Reducing that waste would probably be good for your index funds and not the other way around.

The title of this post could be changed to $4m to $8M.........and beyond!

[Exflyboy]

- SNIP -

I think your argument ignores the real reason for high HC costs.. The HC sector is 12% of the entire stock market. The Stock Market grows on average 10% per year so your portfolio is growing at 1.2% per year due to the HC sector.

If you have a portfolio of $10M in stocks that means you will make $120,000 per year due to Healthcare.

in other words if you're really rich its in your best interests for HC to be as expensive as possible.

Who makes donations to politicians?.. Really rich people.. Follow the money.

Just cus I'm paranoid doesn't mean they are not out to get me!

Think a little bit.  That health care is like a parasite on the American economy.  Much of it is not producing additional goods and services.  It is sucking away resources that are produced by others.  Now, if that was changed so that this burden was reduced, all those resources would be freed up.  Where would that money go?  I'll bet some of it would be spent on "real" goods and services.  I'll bet the stock market would benefit.  That money would be available to invest in new needed infrastructure, in factories, in aid to education, etc.  Reducing that waste would probably be good for your index funds and not the other way around.

The title of this post could be changed to $4m to $8M.........and beyond!

Probably true except for one thing.. The powerful healthcare lobby.

[PathtoFIRE]

I may be a little biased, but I would say that in general directing productive capacity to health and healthcare is a good thing, and I think you could make an argument that the more developed a country becomes, the more it spends on healthcare, proportionally, and the less it spends on other things like food production, etc. I could envision a utopian future where at least human efforts become more and more restricted to direct services, like teaching and healthcare. With that said, I totally agree that in the US at least, there is probably too much spending on non-direct patient care, so I'm not actually disagreeing that there's a lot of fat/waste that could be cut, just that "overall" spending and comparison to other countries may not mean all that much.

[pecunia]

I may be a little biased, but I would say that in general directing productive capacity to health and healthcare is a good thing, and I think you could make an argument that the more developed a country becomes, the more it spends on healthcare, proportionally, and the less it spends on other things like food production, etc. I could envision a utopian future where at least human efforts become more and more restricted to direct services, like teaching and healthcare. With that said, I totally agree that in the US at least, there is probably too much spending on non-direct patient care, so I'm not actually disagreeing that there's a lot of fat/waste that could be cut, just that "overall" spending and comparison to other countries may not mean all that much.

Why doesn't it mean that much?  Some countries have what appears to be a similar standard of living and lower health care cost.

Clipped from the bowels of Google:

The data are presented by type of service, sources of funding, and type of sponsor. U.S. health care spending grew 3.9 percent in 2017, reaching $3.5 trillion or $10,739 per person. As a share of the nation's Gross Domestic Product, health spending accounted for 17.9 percent.

Break out the old charts and graphs - worth a look:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_health_expenditure_per_capita

We spend lots more per person than other countries.  YOU spend more than you would in one of these other countries.  YOU could reach your financial goals more quickly if you had lower health care costs.  Wouldn't you like to be putting half of your health care premium in the stock market rather than seeing it go bye bye?

Here's a chart showing the percentage of GDP spent by different countries.  It's put together by the World Bank:

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.CHEX.GD.ZS

I think it means a lot of money that people could be spending on stuff they'd rather be spending the money on like maybe drugs, sex and rock'n' roll.

[ysette9]

I agree that comparing US healthcare spending to Uganda or Pakistan isn’t a meaningful metric. But the link I provided above lists an EU average (high 9% if I remember correctly). I’m sure the internet would offer up an OECD average as well if we asked politely. Those are two very fair comparison metrics. By the EU metric we are significantly overpaying for an inferior product.

We could free up that capital and spend it on infrastructure or hookers and booze or whatever.

[Exflyboy]

Well back to racing to $3M..

Today I hit a new "personal best". I'm guessing the house + pensions are somewhere around $1M but who really knows.

The investments are $2080k..:)

[ysette9]

Nicely done!

[soccerluvof4]

Exflyboy well done!

I don't know about where you guys live but I do know a lot of Doctors and in different fields. They have really been bouncing around as there is beginning to be a shortage and I am told that less and less people are going to Med school because of the insurance and more are going into Bio medicine. Yesterday my youngest had a Doctors appointment mid day and the clinic was empty. We have found it harder and harder to not only find a pediatrician but to keep the same one because of this and the hospitals clinics have gone to this model seeing way more patients and getting less pay. This is why being a Medical assistant is such a growing position now and people are getting 6 figures and don't have the risk.  But yet In the last 10 years it seems like there is a new hospital on every corner despite how much I hear there hurting. The doctors that I have spoken to have said that the ACA creates so much extra paperwork and coding things write to get paid. But I agree its a base in place so fix it and make it work. But seemingly if we don't get healthcare fixed soon were going to have a big gap where there is a massive shortage of Doctors. Perhaps I am wrong but it just seems like thats going to become an issue. My doctor is 6 months out for regular check ups and stuff.

[pecunia]

Exflyboy well done!

I don't know about where you guys live but I do know a lot of Doctors and in different fields. They have really been bouncing around as there is beginning to be a shortage and I am told that less and less people are going to Med school because of the insurance and more are going into Bio medicine. Yesterday my youngest had a Doctors appointment mid day and the clinic was empty. We have found it harder and harder to not only find a pediatrician but to keep the same one because of this and the hospitals clinics have gone to this model seeing way more patients and getting less pay. This is why being a Medical assistant is such a growing position now and people are getting 6 figures and don't have the risk.  But yet In the last 10 years it seems like there is a new hospital on every corner despite how much I hear there hurting. The doctors that I have spoken to have said that the ACA creates so much extra paperwork and coding things write to get paid. But I agree its a base in place so fix it and make it work. But seemingly if we don't get healthcare fixed soon were going to have a big gap where there is a massive shortage of Doctors. Perhaps I am wrong but it just seems like thats going to become an issue. My doctor is 6 months out for regular check ups and stuff.

Seems like these doctors and medical schools have a pretty good fix on the old supply and demand thing.  There is such a thing as a real shortage and there is such a thing as an artificially generated shortage.   Hmmmmm - Which one are we dealing with here?  There are a lot of smart young people out there who want to become doctors.  There seems to be a lot of sick people out there who need doctors.  That good pay is quite the incentive.  Now wait a minute - If there were more doctors, the pay would be less.  Seems like doctors and medical schools have a pretty good fix on the old supply and demand thing.

[Much Fishing to Do]

Just completed the full cycle from the Fall 2018 drop according to the Quicken download today.

Total Net Worth:

Mid-Sept 2018 (my highest net worth)- $3.8M
Christmas Day 2018 - $3.39M
Today - $3.8M

[Exflyboy]

Just completed the full cycle from the Fall 2018 drop according to the Quicken download today.

Total Net Worth:

Mid-Sept 2018 (my highest net worth)- $3.8M
Christmas Day 2018 - $3.39M
Today - $3.8M

Awesome.. Seems like a lot of us are in this boat. I was telling some junior mustacians in January that I had "lost" $300k in the December pullback.. And that I was very happy about it.. and as they are still buying they should be even more happy than I was..:)

[pecunia]

Things are going well.

Dow all time high from this snippet:

On January 26, 2018, the Dow reached an all-time high of 26,616.71 and eclipsed it on September 20th at 26,656.98 before a precipitous correction leading to the worst December for U.S. equities in living memory before bouncing back to Monday’s 25,914.10 close.

From:

https://www.ccn.com/the-dow-is-about-to-hit-its-next-all-time-high-and-then-collapse

As of now on Friday afternoon - 26,398.39

If I had to do it over again, I'd make a whole new set of mistakes.

[Much Fishing to Do]

Just completed the full cycle from the Fall 2018 drop according to the Quicken download today.

Total Net Worth:

Mid-Sept 2018 (my highest net worth)- $3.8M
Christmas Day 2018 - $3.39M
Today - $3.8M

Awesome.. Seems like a lot of us are in this boat. I was telling some junior mustacians in January that I had "lost" $300k in the December pullback.. And that I was very happy about it.. and as they are still buying they should be even more happy than I was..:)

Ha, I'm not exactly 'happy' about it as I'm past the stage I'll be putting much more back in...but in the end it was an 11% move in my net worth, and I know very well if I 'notice' anything less than 15% and 'care' about anything less than 30% I should either not be in equities or not FIRE....

Reminds me of the folks that always said they were happy when the market tanked and I would bring up that I should be ecstatic regarding my investment in Enron then as now I can really get in low....

[honeyfill]

Just completed the full cycle from the Fall 2018 drop according to the Quicken download today.

Total Net Worth:

Mid-Sept 2018 (my highest net worth)- $3.8M
Christmas Day 2018 - $3.39M
Today - $3.8M

Awesome.. Seems like a lot of us are in this boat. I was telling some junior mustacians in January that I had "lost" $300k in the December pullback.. And that I was very happy about it.. and as they are still buying they should be even more happy than I was..:)

Exflyboy, Much Fishing to Do,
Great news about getting back to your all time highs.  That' s the way to hang in there. 
I am trying hard to catch up to you.  I moved a few thousand from cash to stocks in December but mostly stood pat.  The only reason I'm still down a little is because  I have spent so much since September , helping out my daughter and pre paying for a lot of May-June Europe trip.  I'm surprised it has recovered so quickly but I was also surprised it dropped so fast in the fall. I guess it all evens out.

[Much Fishing to Do]

Just completed the full cycle from the Fall 2018 drop according to the Quicken download today.

Total Net Worth:

Mid-Sept 2018 (my highest net worth)- $3.8M
Christmas Day 2018 - $3.39M
Today - $3.8M

Awesome.. Seems like a lot of us are in this boat. I was telling some junior mustacians in January that I had "lost" $300k in the December pullback.. And that I was very happy about it.. and as they are still buying they should be even more happy than I was..:)

Exflyboy, Much Fishing to Do,
Great news about getting back to your all time highs.  That' s the way to hang in there. 
I am trying hard to catch up to you.  I moved a few thousand from cash to stocks in December but mostly stood pat.  The only reason I'm still down a little is because  I have spent so much since September , helping out my daughter and pre paying for a lot of May-June Europe trip.  I'm surprised it has recovered so quickly but I was also surprised it dropped so fast in the fall. I guess it all evens out.

Wouldn;t worry about it....theres a lot of crazy factors...I realized I was actually quite a bit further down at one point because of how worldly diversified I am in Jan, but the international has made a littel bit of a comeback in the past momth...its the fine line of being aware of these little things but not being concerned by them....

[pecunia]

- KER SNIP -

...its the fine line of being aware of these little things but not being concerned by them....
[/quote]

You guys are long beyond the point of worry.  You'll never have to dig in a dumpster or even shop at Aldi's.  Mr. Money Mustache has promulgated the idea of living on $25,000 / year. 

Let's see 3.8 milion / $25,000 = 152 years

I will never be in your league, but I still feel good.  I have the rising sun, fresh air in my nose and it's Spring.

[Exflyboy]

Yes but when can I do all my international travel in Business class and eat caviar every day?

$3M is just NOT enough..;)

[pecunia]

Yes but when can I do all my international travel in Business class and eat caviar every day?

$3M is just NOT enough..;)

Somehow, the idea of eating fish eggs is less appealing than cheap cans of tuna fish.  Even at 25,000, you will have the time to catch your own fresh fish.  I can do international travel in an old pickup truck, hav more foot room and stop whenever I need to. 

I'll see.  At the end of this year I hope to retire and then I'll see if I needed to work until caviar or will suffer from the common complaint that retirement should have been sooner.

[itchyfeet]

Being an Australian, business class flights to Europe or the US are very expensive. I would have to work an extra year so that my wife and I could fly to Europe once a year in business class for the rest of our lives as opposed to economy (my FIRE budget allows for significant annual international travel)

I asked a couple of friends whether they would work an extra year before retirement if it meant they could fly business class for the rest of their lives. It was about 50/50 between those who would/ wouldn’t work the extra year.

I have decided it’s not worth working an extra year, but I do hope that over time my net worth will continue to grow to the point where I can escape economy class.

[Much Fishing to Do]

Yes but when can I do all my international travel in Business class and eat caviar every day?

$3M is just NOT enough..;)

Ha, $3M is much much more than 'enough' for my family of 5...  But more (that I get from good investing and don't have to work for) just seems better than less somehow...

[Bateaux]

We're just at 2.1MM investments.   Yep, nice recovery from the Fall dip.  300K or more actually.   Still somewhat shooting for 2.5 MM investments.  Don't have to quite have that much to FIRE, since I hope to live on 60K. The 60K limit is due to getting the ACA subsidy. We'll just need to pay off the Florida home mortgage of 180K, by selling the Louisiana property.  That would pay the debt off and likely add some cash towards the 2.5MM.  The grown kids are interested in the Louisiana property, but I'd rather sell to someone else.   It's waterfront, but it floods and they'd be better off without that headache.  I can see myself coming back and fixing shit on this same old house if the kids buy it.   Screw that.  I've been fixing crap on that house since 1992.  The Florida house is on a high ass hill.  It's five miles to a fresh water boat launch and fifteen miles from the Gulf of Mexico.   That's close enough to the water now.   I really like my kayak and bicycle more than motorized boats now.  Low maintenance fun.

[Dicey]

Being an Australian, business class flights to Europe or the US are very expensive. I would have to work an extra year so that my wife and I could fly to Europe once a year in business class for the rest of our lives as opposed to economy (my FIRE budget allows for significant annual international travel)

I asked a couple of friends whether they would work an extra year before retirement if it meant they could fly business class for the rest of their lives. It was about 50/50 between those who would/ wouldn’t work the extra year.

I have decided it’s not worth working an extra year, but I do hope that over time my net worth will continue to grow to the point where I can escape economy class.

The answer is retire sooner and use your new free time to travel hack so you can fly business class. Boom!

[Exflyboy]

We're just at 2.1MM investments.   Yep, nice recovery from the Fall dip.  300K or more actually.   Still somewhat shooting for 2.5 MM investments.  Don't have to quite have that much to FIRE, since I hope to live on 60K. The 60K limit is due to getting the ACA subsidy. We'll just need to pay off the Florida home mortgage of 180K, by selling the Louisiana property.  That would pay the debt off and likely add some cash towards the 2.5MM.  The grown kids are interested in the Louisiana property, but I'd rather sell to someone else.   It's waterfront, but it floods and they'd be better off without that headache.  I can see myself coming back and fixing shit on this same old house if the kids buy it.   Screw that.  I've been fixing crap on that house since 1992.  The Florida house is on a high ass hill.  It's five miles to a fresh water boat launch and fifteen miles from the Gulf of Mexico.   That's close enough to the water now.   I really like my kayak and bicycle more than motorized boats now.  Low maintenance fun.

@Bateaux .. Captain Obvious here...

You and I are very close fire budget wise but I just wanted to throw out the fact that spending $60k from investments is not the same as making an "income" of $60k for ACA purposes.

If you are spending from pretax accounts (401k's etc) then yes $1 drawn from your 401k = $1 of income.

For after tax investments however, Your MAGI is based on the capital gain of the investments you sell.

So say your $60k is all from selling after tax investments and the shares you bought in VTSAX at $20 are now sold for $60 each.

You sell 1000 (60*1000) to make your $60k spend. Well your gain is only $40 per share.. so your total cap gain is only $40k and that will be your MAGI as far as the ACA goes.

Of course this is simplified because you have to count the dividends as part of your MAGI as well.

[EscapeVelocity2020]

Interesting to see how closely everyone tracks their net-worth.  I was pretty obsessive about it heading up to that first million.  It was like climbing Mt. Everest, treacherous and very much learning while trying not to get killed.  Fortunately, the experiences and a good market made the second million a breeze.  Nowadays, my philosophy is that I'll have more that enough even if the markets drop 50%.  Heck, if a person is smart and financially experienced enough to reach 2+ million in investments, they should be able to avoid scams and unforced errors.  And as a Mustachian, our family blends in nicely as middle class so no-one is coming by with their hands out.  The kids have no clue we are 'rich'.  My wife and I are discreet when we are charitable and spread it out with lots of smaller amounts as opposed to one big amount.

Having money has given me the freedom to not worry about the details anymore.  When I read that people were at all time highs, I took a peek at one of my larger accounts and it's up over 100k since I last checked.  Crazy!  $100k I'm not wanting for and for doing nothing!  That's enough info for me.  The FI life is good.

When I do get to the spending / draw-down part of our lives, I'll be moderate whether I have 2 million or 20 million.  I'm just not a mansion and sports car kind of guy, but also quite happy to not need to be as hardcore about saving a buck.  Most of all, I don't want to be wasteful, fill landfills, and produce added CO2 out of laziness / inefficiency.  And I want to pass along good values to my children.

[Bateaux]

We're just at 2.1MM investments.   Yep, nice recovery from the Fall dip.  300K or more actually.   Still somewhat shooting for 2.5 MM investments.  Don't have to quite have that much to FIRE, since I hope to live on 60K. The 60K limit is due to getting the ACA subsidy. We'll just need to pay off the Florida home mortgage of 180K, by selling the Louisiana property.  That would pay the debt off and likely add some cash towards the 2.5MM.  The grown kids are interested in the Louisiana property, but I'd rather sell to someone else.   It's waterfront, but it floods and they'd be better off without that headache.  I can see myself coming back and fixing shit on this same old house if the kids buy it.   Screw that.  I've been fixing crap on that house since 1992.  The Florida house is on a high ass hill.  It's five miles to a fresh water boat launch and fifteen miles from the Gulf of Mexico.   That's close enough to the water now.   I really like my kayak and bicycle more than motorized boats now.  Low maintenance fun.

@Bateaux .. Captain Obvious here...

You and I are very close fire budget wise but I just wanted to throw out the fact that spending $60k from investments is not the same as making an "income" of $60k for ACA purposes.

If you are spending from pretax accounts (401k's etc) then yes $1 drawn from your 401k = $1 of income.

For after tax investments however, Your MAGI is based on the capital gain of the investments you sell.

So say your $60k is all from selling after tax investments and the shares you bought in VTSAX at $20 are now sold for $60 each.

You sell 1000 (60*1000) to make your $60k spend. Well your gain is only $40 per share.. so your total cap gain is only $40k and that will be your MAGI as far as the ACA goes.

Of course this is simplified because you have to count the dividends as part of your MAGI as well.

In our case, our stash is about 1.4 million 401K.  (I know, such a horrid problem to have)  We do have almost 250K in Roth IRA accounts.   We could draw our personal investment and leave the gains.  I have an employer funded cash balance pension that's approaching 400k.  We've got about 70K in cash and taxable accounts.   Paid off real estate we could sell, about 250K.  We've got debt of 180K, on the Florida house and no other debts.   Looking at all that we could quit work today most likely.  It just makes a little more sense to finish out 2020.  I think our youngest just got a job that will pay over 100k annually.  The oldest, we're still working on him to get a higher paying job.   He's a cancer survivor and will be 26 and using the ACA this June.    I don't think the 2020 election will go to the ACA killers.  Still, while I'm making good money, I just have to be a safety net till 2020.  My post 2020, 60k with no debt spending should be quite lavish. 

[Bateaux]

Interesting to see how closely everyone tracks their net-worth.  I was pretty obsessive about it heading up to that first million.  It was like climbing Mt. Everest, treacherous and very much learning while trying not to get killed.  Fortunately, the experiences and a good market made the second million a breeze.  Nowadays, my philosophy is that I'll have more that enough even if the markets drop 50%.  Heck, if a person is smart and financially experienced enough to reach 2+ million in investments, they should be able to avoid scams and unforced errors.  And as a Mustachian, our family blends in nicely as middle class so no-one is coming by with their hands out.  The kids have no clue we are 'rich'.  My wife and I are discreet when we are charitable and spread it out with lots of smaller amounts as opposed to one big amount.

Having money has given me the freedom to not worry about the details anymore.  When I read that people were at all time highs, I took a peek at one of my larger accounts and it's up over 100k since I last checked.  Crazy!  $100k I'm not wanting for and for doing nothing!  That's enough info for me.  The FI life is good.

When I do get to the spending / draw-down part of our lives, I'll be moderate whether I have 2 million or 20 million.  I'm just not a mansion and sports car kind of guy, but also quite happy to not need to be as hardcore about saving a buck.  Most of all, I don't want to be wasteful, fill landfills, and produce added CO2 out of laziness / inefficiency.  And I want to pass along good values to my children.

Nothing to add to that but, Hell Yeah!

[Exflyboy]

@Bateaux  Oh yeah.. $60k (especially if your houses are paid off) will be plenty for 2 people if you live in a MCOL area.

We spent $50k last year and had a couple of lavish (by our standards) vacations.

Sounds like You're in a great place!

[Exflyboy]

Interesting to see how closely everyone tracks their net-worth.  I was pretty obsessive about it heading up to that first million.  It was like climbing Mt. Everest, treacherous and very much learning while trying not to get killed.  Fortunately, the experiences and a good market made the second million a breeze.  Nowadays, my philosophy is that I'll have more that enough even if the markets drop 50%.  Heck, if a person is smart and financially experienced enough to reach 2+ million in investments, they should be able to avoid scams and unforced errors.  And as a Mustachian, our family blends in nicely as middle class so no-one is coming by with their hands out.  The kids have no clue we are 'rich'.  My wife and I are discreet when we are charitable and spread it out with lots of smaller amounts as opposed to one big amount.

Having money has given me the freedom to not worry about the details anymore.  When I read that people were at all time highs, I took a peek at one of my larger accounts and it's up over 100k since I last checked.  Crazy!  $100k I'm not wanting for and for doing nothing!  That's enough info for me.  The FI life is good.

When I do get to the spending / draw-down part of our lives, I'll be moderate whether I have 2 million or 20 million.  I'm just not a mansion and sports car kind of guy, but also quite happy to not need to be as hardcore about saving a buck.  Most of all, I don't want to be wasteful, fill landfills, and produce added CO2 out of laziness / inefficiency.  And I want to pass along good values to my children.

Nothing to add to that but, Hell Yeah!

Amen Brother!..:)

[JoJoP]

Interesting to see how closely everyone tracks their net-worth.  I was pretty obsessive about it heading up to that first million.  It was like climbing Mt. Everest, treacherous and very much learning while trying not to get killed. 

Our NW is mostly in real estate- about 90%, so Mint gives me a quick synopsis of what Zillow claims our houses to be worth.   Just for kicks, I went through and added our small IRA and trade account balances, as well as the 2 seller carry loans that pay us monthly and are slowly paying down the principal.  Zillow is notoriously high in property valuations, and doesn't take into account the amount that you'd actually pocket if you sold minus the transaction costs.  But, since it does track comparative sales in the neighborhood, it's very handy for close approximations of value at a glance, and Mint keeps track of all of it.  I do find the Mint accounting to be handy, since you can add, delete or modify the numbers whenever there is a change worth recording.   I check in and make modifications about every 15-20K worth of change in NW, which is usually due to paying down mortgages.   I've paid off at least 7 or 8 mortgages in the past 5 years, so I get to see the little red graph (debts) slowly shrinking and the green one (assets) slowly growing.  The red graph is getting pretty small.  Do any of you use Mint for tracking NW?

But, funny, I'm more obsessive about the small gains in my trade accounts.  Very obsessive!  I constantly check our accounts.  Now that the mortgages are basically paid off (one small loan remaining on our personal residence only)  I'm about to start dumping our excess cash into the stock market, and I worry that this is not a good time to be adding finite resources to an inflated market.  Obviously we were more comfortable investing in real estate, so I'm not a seasoned stock investor by any means.   Hiding it under the mattress is not an option, so Index funds here we come!   It seems to have worked for all of you, and I hope for us it's not too little, too late.    The CDs pay so poorly, but maybe a good split for us would be 50/50.    I think I'll phone Fidelity and get one of their advisors to give me some guidance.

[markbike528CBX]

.....snip.....
Now that the mortgages are basically paid off (one small loan remaining on our personal residence only)  I'm about to start dumping our excess cash into the stock market, and I worry that this is not a good time to be adding finite resources to an inflated market.  Obviously we were more comfortable investing in real estate, so I'm not a seasoned stock investor by any means.   Hiding it under the mattress is not an option, so Index funds here we come!   It seems to have worked for all of you, and I hope for us it's not too little, too late.    The CDs pay so poorly, but maybe a good split for us would be 50/50.    I think I'll phone Fidelity and get one of their advisors to give me some guidance.

I'd ask questions and read some more here before you a$k "prof$$ional$". 

The 4% rule sticky thread and the jcollins stock series are good starting points.

If you're 50/50, than VTSAX/total bond index may be all you need.

[ysette9]

I just got back from a business trip to China. There is a world of difference between flying steerage and flying business. I’d be tempted to work another year to never have to suffer through steerage again. To actually have food and drink when hungry and thirsty, to not be constantly uncomfortable, to be able to get up to pee whenever I wish. (I remember one cross-country business trip at my old company where I had to justify the “upgrade” to an aisle seat while in my third trimester of pregnancy.) Most importantly for those international trips, the ability to SLEEP on the plane. Amazing!

I have got to find some time to look I to this travel hacking thing do we can figure out business class for our personal trips.

[itchyfeet]

I just got back from a business trip to China. There is a world of difference between flying steerage and flying business. I’d be tempted to work another year to never have to suffer through steerage again. To actually have food and drink when hungry and thirsty, to not be constantly uncomfortable, to be able to get up to pee whenever I wish. (I remember one cross-country business trip at my old company where I had to justify the “upgrade” to an aisle seat while in my third trimester of pregnancy.) Most importantly for those international trips, the ability to SLEEP on the plane. Amazing!

I have got to find some time to look I to this travel hacking thing do we can figure out business class for our personal trips.

I hear you, but knowing myself, even if I had that extra money I’d still have trouble justifying paying >$10K USD for DW and I to fly return to Europe. It’s the equivalent of an extra month or more staying in nice places whilst on holiday.

Better off retiring the year early and working on travel hacking I’d say, even though Travel hacking is not so easy in Australia compared to the US as the banks don’t offer the same incentives on their credit cards.

Of course, if my wealth keeps growing post FIRE and I end up filthy rich then business class flights is probably something I could throw money at to get rid of it 😜

[JoJoP]

I'd ask questions and read some more here before you a$k "prof$$ional$". 

The 4% rule sticky thread and the jcollins stock series are good starting points.

If you're 50/50, than VTSAX/total bond index may be all you need.

I am reading till my eyes go wonky!  Ha ha.  VTSAX comes up a lot.  I've got Fidelity accounts, and thought that the Fidelity equivalent would be a good one.   

As to those of you enjoying the front of the plane... @ysette9 and @itchyfeet -- travel hacking is definitely a more Mustachian path than paying your hard earned cash.  It's a natural extension of being frugal whilst actually enjoying luxury. Is that an oxymoron?  I found MMM when he was interviewed by Million Mile Secrets, back in the day when it was owned, built and cherished by a nice travel hacking couple, Darius and Emily.  Bankrate owns the site now.  Many of the creative ways to amass scads of points have disappeared, but there's still plenty of opportunity for anyone with good money skills to get enough miles and points with minimal hassle and cost, for one or two very nice trips a year.

  We jumped into the credit card game and our extensive travel (many international trips yearly, about 100-120 days a year) is nearly all in Business class thanks to "the miles and points lifestyle."  At least if I'm on the flight we're in front.  DH is more into quantity, going to Europe about every 45 days, and I'm into quality, with a trip every couple of months in the front or not at all.   Pods are awesome!

[Exflyboy]

I should get into the manufacturing airmile game.

My big fear is that somehow the loophole of buying gift cards will close and I'll be stuck with a $4000 Walmart gift card.

[pecunia]

I should get into the manufacturing airmile game.

My big fear is that somehow the loophole of buying gift cards will close and I'll be stuck with a $4000 Walmart gift card.

Lots of good stuff at Walmart.  The quality of Chinese goods is greatly improving.  Two billion souls working to create innovative value products for you will enhance that early retirement.

[Dicey]

I should get into the manufacturing airmile game.

My big fear is that somehow the loophole of buying gift cards will close and I'll be stuck with a $4000 Walmart gift card.

There's no way I could spend $4k at Wallyworld. If this happened to me I'd donate them to a charity.

[ysette9]

I stepped into a Walmart about ten+ years ago with a gift card to spend. I found the place incredibly depressing.

[soccerluvof4]

I should get into the manufacturing airmile game.

My big fear is that somehow the loophole of buying gift cards will close and I'll be stuck with a $4000 Walmart gift card.

There are some pretty good deals right now with smaller amounts you need to spend. Go to Doctorofcredit.com and just pick one. There are some as low as 2k spend over 3 months. Very rarely do I find I need to buy a GC and I churn at least a card a month .

[pecunia]

I stepped into a Walmart about ten+ years ago with a gift card to spend. I found the place incredibly depressing.

Once you get past the disabled greeter with er Oxygen tank, the place is fine.

[Taran Wanderer]

I stepped into a Walmart about ten+ years ago with a gift card to spend. I found the place incredibly depressing.

Yes, this.

[Exflyboy]

I stepped into a Walmart about ten+ years ago with a gift card to spend. I found the place incredibly depressing.

Once you get past the disabled greeter with er Oxygen tank, the place is fine.

And the patrons with ankle bracelets..:)

[soccerluvof4]

I stepped into a Walmart about ten+ years ago with a gift card to spend. I found the place incredibly depressing.

Once you get past the disabled greeter with er Oxygen tank, the place is fine.

And the patrons with ankle bracelets..:)

I find Second hand stores like Goodwill nicer inside. Plus they have more than one cashier.

[Dicey]

I stepped into a Walmart about ten+ years ago with a gift card to spend. I found the place incredibly depressing.

I'm hitting up lots of local stores and restaurants on behalf of my beloved library's upcoming fund raiser, therefore I'm darkening far more retail doors than I do in real life. I was waiting for a manager at a grocery store I use only in a minor way. I noticed they have a dry ice freezer. This gave me an unexpected thrill, because up to that moment, the only place I knew that sold dry ice was a Wally World two towns over. Having knowledge of this is giving me a weird sort of giddiness. How often do I buy dry ice? Never. But it's still a relief knowing that if I did have need for it, I wouldn't have to go to Wally's. Oddly soothing discovery.

[soccerluvof4]

I stepped into a Walmart about ten+ years ago with a gift card to spend. I found the place incredibly depressing.

I'm hitting up lots of local stores and restaurants on behalf of my beloved library's upcoming fund raiser, therefore I'm darkening far more retail doors than I do in real life. I was waiting for a manager at a grocery store I use only in a minor way. I noticed they have a dry ice freezer. This gave me an unexpected thrill, because up to that moment, the only place I knew that sold dry ice was a Wally World two towns over. Having knowledge of this is giving me a weird sort of giddiness. How often do I buy dry ice? Never. But it's still a relief knowing that if I did have need for it, I wouldn't have to go to Wally's. Oddly soothing discovery.

Its amazing how many meme's I see , articles about all there labor issues, dumpy stores etc.. but yet the store is the only one seemingly that is not being affected by Amazon.