Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!

[farmecologist]

I officially work a little less than 20hrs/wk right now, and not putting my work email on my phone was the best work move I have ever made.  The time/thought creep that occurs from having accessible work email away from the laptop is extreme and at that point may as well work a full time job. Workdays I dont schedule to work I usually check my email from my laptop once in the evening and then call it a day.

I agree. I never have and never will have my work email, or any other work related thing, on any of my personal devices.  Since my work is soul crushing enough as it is, I like to keep it separate from my personal life!

 

[2sk22]

I officially work a little less than 20hrs/wk right now, and not putting my work email on my phone was the best work move I have ever made.  The time/thought creep that occurs from having accessible work email away from the laptop is extreme and at that point may as well work a full time job. Workdays I dont schedule to work I usually check my email from my laptop once in the evening and then call it a day.

I agree. I never have and never will have my work email, or any other work related thing, on any of my personal devices.  Since my work is soul crushing enough as it is, I like to keep it separate from my personal life!

You have never experienced the sheer misery of a torture instrument that we were forced to use called Pager Duty. In the the old days we used to sell software on tape or later on CDs or DVDs. Nowadays of course, nobody sells software anymore - you offer it software a service on the Internet. If anything goes wrong with a web service, it typically needs to get fixed ASAP since it's always working hours somewhere in the world.

For a while, I was responsible for a high-profile AI web service offered by the company I worked for. Since no-one  in the ops team knew anything about my product, any production outage would usually get escalated up to me. The Pager Duty app on my phone would then wake me up, typically at 2am on a bitterly cold night. I was actually forced to keep notifications turned on 😡

It took me several months for me to train enough of the ops team to handle problems and finally get off pager duty. I will admit that the pay was great but not enough to compensate for being on call all the time.

[farmecologist]

I officially work a little less than 20hrs/wk right now, and not putting my work email on my phone was the best work move I have ever made.  The time/thought creep that occurs from having accessible work email away from the laptop is extreme and at that point may as well work a full time job. Workdays I dont schedule to work I usually check my email from my laptop once in the evening and then call it a day.

I agree. I never have and never will have my work email, or any other work related thing, on any of my personal devices.  Since my work is soul crushing enough as it is, I like to keep it separate from my personal life!

You have never experienced the sheer misery of a torture instrument that we were forced to use called Pager Duty. In the the old days we used to sell software on tape or later on CDs or DVDs. Nowadays of course, nobody sells software anymore - you offer it software a service on the Internet. If anything goes wrong with a web service, it typically needs to get fixed ASAP since it's always working hours somewhere in the world.

For a while, I was responsible for a high-profile AI web service offered by the company I worked for. Since no-one  in the ops team knew anything about my product, any production outage would usually get escalated up to me. The Pager Duty app on my phone would then wake me up, typically at 2am on a bitterly cold night. I was actually forced to keep notifications turned on 😡

It took me several months for me to train enough of the ops team to handle problems and finally get off pager duty. I will admit that the pay was great but not enough to compensate for being on call all the time.

Well..just because I don't have work email, etc... on my phone doesn't mean my phone number is unavailable.  It is...for "emergencies".  Thankfully, I haven't been called very many times....but it has happened ( I work in systems design and programming ).

[Fomerly known as something]

I officially work a little less than 20hrs/wk right now, and not putting my work email on my phone was the best work move I have ever made.  The time/thought creep that occurs from having accessible work email away from the laptop is extreme and at that point may as well work a full time job. Workdays I dont schedule to work I usually check my email from my laptop once in the evening and then call it a day.

I agree. I never have and never will have my work email, or any other work related thing, on any of my personal devices.  Since my work is soul crushing enough as it is, I like to keep it separate from my personal life!

You have never experienced the sheer misery of a torture instrument that we were forced to use called Pager Duty. In the the old days we used to sell software on tape or later on CDs or DVDs. Nowadays of course, nobody sells software anymore - you offer it software a service on the Internet. If anything goes wrong with a web service, it typically needs to get fixed ASAP since it's always working hours somewhere in the world.

For a while, I was responsible for a high-profile AI web service offered by the company I worked for. Since no-one  in the ops team knew anything about my product, any production outage would usually get escalated up to me. The Pager Duty app on my phone would then wake me up, typically at 2am on a bitterly cold night. I was actually forced to keep notifications turned on 😡

It took me several months for me to train enough of the ops team to handle problems and finally get off pager duty. I will admit that the pay was great but not enough to compensate for being on call all the time.

I miss my pager.  People only paged you at 2am when they needed you to answer.  Work thinks noting about sending monthly stats out at 2am via e-mail.

[Much Fishing to Do]

I officially work a little less than 20hrs/wk right now, and not putting my work email on my phone was the best work move I have ever made.  The time/thought creep that occurs from having accessible work email away from the laptop is extreme and at that point may as well work a full time job. Workdays I dont schedule to work I usually check my email from my laptop once in the evening and then call it a day.

I agree. I never have and never will have my work email, or any other work related thing, on any of my personal devices.  Since my work is soul crushing enough as it is, I like to keep it separate from my personal life!

You have never experienced the sheer misery of a torture instrument that we were forced to use called Pager Duty. In the the old days we used to sell software on tape or later on CDs or DVDs. Nowadays of course, nobody sells software anymore - you offer it software a service on the Internet. If anything goes wrong with a web service, it typically needs to get fixed ASAP since it's always working hours somewhere in the world.

For a while, I was responsible for a high-profile AI web service offered by the company I worked for. Since no-one  in the ops team knew anything about my product, any production outage would usually get escalated up to me. The Pager Duty app on my phone would then wake me up, typically at 2am on a bitterly cold night. I was actually forced to keep notifications turned on 😡

It took me several months for me to train enough of the ops team to handle problems and finally get off pager duty. I will admit that the pay was great but not enough to compensate for being on call all the time.

Well..just because I don't have work email, etc... on my phone doesn't mean my phone number is unavailable.  It is...for "emergencies".  Thankfully, I haven't been called very many times....but it has happened ( I work in systems design and programming ).

Oh, i definitely get the occasional emergency phone call, but they are few and far between and more to the point I dont really mind them because its always a case where I was actually needed at that time as opposed to the 99% of the email I used to get that somehow sucks my time and energy

[baludon]

Turning in my work phone was one of best thing about retirement.  I hated carrying two phones at all times.  I cringe every time my work phone rings after hours because I know there's a problem I have to fix at that very moment.

[farmecologist]

Turning in my work phone was one of best thing about retirement.  I hated carrying two phones at all times.  I cringe every time my work phone rings after hours because I know there's a problem I have to fix at that very moment.

Thank god I don't have a dedicated work phone.  Sometimes "unidentified" numbers will call and I'm somewhat positive it may be work.  I...uhh...don't answer it.  They can leave a message if it is that urgent ( and they have ).   

[Bateaux]

So I think I'll contact an Ed Jones representative tomorrow.   He's handling many accounts for my former coworkers.  Doubt I'm giving him my accounts to manage.  I just need to nudge him to tell wife we are ready for retirement.

[2Birds1Stone]

Edward Jones is a fuckin scam factory. Good luck.....they are worthless.

[Bateaux]

Edward Jones is a fuckin scam factory. Good luck.....they are worthless.

I'm having second thoughts already.
Basically used car/timeshare salesmen

[BeanCounter]

Edward Jones is a fuckin scam factory. Good luck.....they are worthless.

I'm having second thoughts already.
Basically used car/timeshare salesmen

Oh don’t get me started on EJ. Absolutely the worst of the worst. I’m not sure any of them are actually qualified to do what they do. Condolences to your co-workers that use them.

Maybe look at a fee only financial planner? Someone that is going to evaluate your values as a couple along with your net worth and then help direct you. It’s too easy for someone selling something to tell you that more is better.
I use the free planner you get when you qualify for wealth services (or whatever they call it) at Fidelity. I’ve been impressed with him. You still have to do the investing or changes yourself and as far as I know he doesn’t make anything based on what he advises us to do. He’s just more of a sounding board and helps us go through an annual review process and helps us determine what we need to do to rebalance.

[2sk22]

I use the free planner you get when you qualify for wealth services (or whatever they call it) at Fidelity. I’ve been impressed with him. You still have to do the investing or changes yourself and as far as I know he doesn’t make anything based on what he advises us to do. He’s just more of a sounding board and helps us go through an annual review process and helps us determine what we need to do to rebalance.

Same here - I have an assigned rep at Fidelity who has been very helpful over the years. The rep has changed every few years but they have all generally been pleasant to work with. I don't get hard upsells and have made some good suggestions, especially with respect to managing the non-stock part of my portfolio.

[Turtle]

Edward Jones is a fuckin scam factory. Good luck.....they are worthless.

I'm having second thoughts already.
Basically used car/timeshare salesmen

Sadly this is who my father is using, thanks to some sort of communication bungling of the Schwab transfer of USAA accounts.  He left Schwab in a huff and went 100% with someone who my parents knew through church.  Fortunately his retirement funding is primarily through 2 pensions and not dependent on the small amounts he has in retirement accounts.

Having had accounts with both USAA and TDA myself, I do have to say that Schwab's communication with TDA account holders has been far more clear for the TDA conversions than it was for the USAA one.

[BeanCounter]

I use the free planner you get when you qualify for wealth services (or whatever they call it) at Fidelity. I’ve been impressed with him. You still have to do the investing or changes yourself and as far as I know he doesn’t make anything based on what he advises us to do. He’s just more of a sounding board and helps us go through an annual review process and helps us determine what we need to do to rebalance.

Same here - I have an assigned rep at Fidelity who has been very helpful over the years. The rep has changed every few years but they have all generally been pleasant to work with. I don't get hard upsells and have made some good suggestions, especially with respect to managing the non-stock part of my portfolio.

I am really glad that I was introduced to Fidelity through my 401k years ago. Otherwise I would have probably gone with Vanguard because that's what everyone preaches. In my experience Fidelity offers the same low cost fund options (including Vanguard funds) but their customer support is far superior. I can do everything myself if I want, or I can use them as a sounding board. If I want a different opinion on something my advisor recommended I can easily call someone else in the network and ask for a second opinion. They even offer free tax and estate planning guidance.

[arcturus]

The other thing that Fidelity has going for it is pretty darn good retirement planner feature on its website.  I tend to focus on my own spreadsheet approach, but its really useful as a second or triple-check to make sure I'm not way off on a key assumption.  These kind of tools have come a long ways, I know, but theirs seems to do a reasonably good job and has a fair bit of flexibility.   

[Dancin'Dog]

The other thing that Fidelity has going for it is pretty darn good retirement planner feature on its website.  I tend to focus on my own spreadsheet approach, but its really useful as a second or triple-check to make sure I'm not way off on a key assumption.  These kind of tools have come a long ways, I know, but theirs seems to do a reasonably good job and has a fair bit of flexibility.

I need to check out Fidelity. 

[Exflyboy]

Yup I have most of my pretax investments with Fidelity and my after tax with Vanguard.

Every 6 months or so I get a courtesy call from Fidelity asking me if I need anything (I don't provide any personal info because you never know if its a scammer).

The last time I used their website was 5 years or so back but even then it was pretty good.

Ooh question.. I have a couple of 401k plans that are orphans in weird places that I would like to consolidate into my Vanguard Traditional IRA.. Do I have to sell the 401k positions or are the positions themselves transferred? I.e if the fund jumps up in value I don't want to lose out by being in cash during the transfer.

[2sk22]

Yup I have most of my pretax investments with Fidelity and my after tax with Vanguard.

Every 6 months or so I get a courtesy call from Fidelity asking me if I need anything (I don't provide any personal info because you never know if its a scammer).

The last time I used their website was 5 years or so back but even then it was pretty good.

Ooh question.. I have a couple of 401k plans that are orphans in weird places that I would like to consolidate into my Vanguard Traditional IRA.. Do I have to sell the 401k positions or are the positions themselves transferred? I.e if the fund jumps up in value I don't want to lose out by being in cash during the transfer.

I've done this several times to consolidate all of my pre tax money in one IRA. Typically they will liquidate the 401k and send the full amount to your IRA.  However in the case of a Merrill Lynch IRA that I moved into my main  IRA, I received the actual securities.

[dividendman]

Yup I have most of my pretax investments with Fidelity and my after tax with Vanguard.

Every 6 months or so I get a courtesy call from Fidelity asking me if I need anything (I don't provide any personal info because you never know if its a scammer).

The last time I used their website was 5 years or so back but even then it was pretty good.

Ooh question.. I have a couple of 401k plans that are orphans in weird places that I would like to consolidate into my Vanguard Traditional IRA.. Do I have to sell the 401k positions or are the positions themselves transferred? I.e if the fund jumps up in value I don't want to lose out by being in cash during the transfer.

I've done this several times to consolidate all of my pre tax money in one IRA. Typically they will liquidate the 401k and send the full amount to your IRA.  However in the case of a Merrill Lynch IRA that I moved into my main  IRA, I received the actual securities.

If you're invested in ETFs or individual stocks then the broker can do an in-kind transfer. If you're in mutual funds then you're going to have to liquidate. Since it's in a 401k it doesn't really matter for tax reasons but you could get lucky/unlucky depending on how the market moves while the transfer is taking place.

[catccc]

Officially rejoining this thread.  Hit $2M a couple days ago. In late 2021 it looked like it was just around the corner, and then 2022 happened.

I am really having a hard time deciding if I like my job or if it stresses me out, and if I should keep working or not.

DH doesn’t like his job, but feels it is unfair to retire before I do.  I am fine with it, but I would expect that he take on a lot of the domestic duties are currently split but still mostly on me.

I’m thinking maybe we get to $3M and then really I quit?  But I said that about $2M before, so IDK.

I keep doing well at work and they keep paying me more, so I feel like I gotta strike while it’s hot.

[BeanCounter]

Officially rejoining this thread.  Hit $2M a couple days ago. In late 2021 it looked like it was just around the corner, and then 2022 happened.

I am really having a hard time deciding if I like my job or if it stresses me out, and if I should keep working or not.

DH doesn’t like his job, but feels it is unfair to retire before I do.  I am fine with it, but I would expect that he take on a lot of the domestic duties are currently split but still mostly on me.

I’m thinking maybe we get to $3M and then really I quit?  But I said that about $2M before, so IDK.

I keep doing well at work and they keep paying me more, so I feel like I gotta strike while it’s hot.

@catccc
Welcome back!!
We are just a year or two ahead of you in terms of our ages and our kids ages. I FIREd in 2020 (but have been doing a bit of contract work) DH is still working. He loves his job and it covers our crazy crazy tuition bills and provides great insurance. He plans to stay 10 more years but we’ll see what happens.
I’ve found FIRE during this time with the kids to be really helpful because they need to be driven so many places all the time!!  But it’s also frustrating because we can’t really travel until the kids are out of school. Which is another reason DH has been happy to keep working and I’ve done some contact work. We are tied to the house because of the school schedule anyway might as well bring in a little money!
The other difficulty I’ve found in FIRE with kids is that I’m never quite sure what our expenses will be. Tuition is a lot but it’s mostly known. The sports bills really add up and tend to fluctuate. We will have a new driver soon and I have no idea what insurance and vehicle costs will be for him. I’m not sure what college will really be either. And while all these things can be really expensive they will start to significantly taper off in 8 years.
All that to say, I’m glad to be FI. I’m sure you are too. But I can understand with kids the allure of continuing to work and earn more at least until they are (mostly) flown.

[pecunia]

Officially rejoining this thread.  Hit $2M a couple days ago. In late 2021 it looked like it was just around the corner, and then 2022 happened.

I am really having a hard time deciding if I like my job or if it stresses me out, and if I should keep working or not.

DH doesn’t like his job, but feels it is unfair to retire before I do.  I am fine with it, but I would expect that he take on a lot of the domestic duties are currently split but still mostly on me.

I’m thinking maybe we get to $3M and then really I quit?  But I said that about $2M before, so IDK.

I keep doing well at work and they keep paying me more, so I feel like I gotta strike while it’s hot.

Here's the thing that hit me when it finally rolled into my head and I didn't have to be on the job.  Because I was no longer dependent on the job, it was like a weight lifted.  I could smile at some of the stuff that used to weigh me down.  In a sort of way, I became in charge and not "them."

[ca-rn]

Finally firmly crossed over from the Race from 1M to 2M to this thread!

As with lots of folks on the cusp, took a nosedive sometime in 2020 and road the turbulent ride but now back to ATH and crossed over into the 2M territory.

I'm close to my planned FIRE number but need/want to stay working part time until 55 for the Rule of 55.

My biggest mental hangup is going to be choosing and paying for healthcare.  I'm healthy- eat mostly plant based, exercise (hike/bike/yoga) etc and almost never use my free employer paid insurance. 

I've mentally allotted 100k to cover insurance/deductible/copays to cover me from 55-65. It is a small amount compared to my FIRE number but the cheap/frugal me still resists the idea of paying "a lot" for something I rarely use and got free all these years.

I've been mentally gearing myself up for a couple of years but frugal habits are hard to break- I spend more freely overall but still (automatically) first look for the "best price". 

I'll catch myself doing it and then compare the potential money saved vs the time spent looking to save a few bucks.  Even though I have more free time, I try to stay balanced and relax a bit more with spending. 

My siblings/friends/coworkers (who aren't savers) seem to have such an easy time spending money... I don't want to be compelled to spend to the max but would like to be able to spend more freely too.

[Exflyboy]

@ca-rn I suspect that when you get there you will find that HC cost is not really a big deal, especially if you have 1) a relatively low yearly expenditure and 2) Some after tax savings you can live on prior to age 65.

I was poking around on the ACA website and up to $54k the monthly cost for a Bronze plan for two people at 62 and 58 was $2:92 per month.. Yes it has a large max OOP.. ($14,000,, or $7,000 if only one of you has a large problem.. like a broken wrist in my case.

At $60,000 income that same plan is $20/month.

[ATtiny85]

My biggest mental hangup is going to be choosing and paying for healthcare.  I'm healthy- eat mostly plant based, exercise (hike/bike/yoga) etc and almost never use my free employer paid insurance. 

I've mentally allotted 100k to cover insurance/deductible/copays to cover me from 55-65. It is a small amount compared to my FIRE number but the cheap/frugal me still resists the idea of paying "a lot" for something I rarely use and got free all these years.

I wonder if the “mental hangup” is worse for those of us who have little to no experience with having healthcare costs? Since entering the corporate world 23 years ago I have paid exactly four bills outside of normal yearly blood work costs or office copays. And all four of them together total about $1500. This makes the whole world of healthcare very unknown and mysterious to me. I think this makes me more apprehensive about costs in the future.

[Exflyboy]

@ATtiny85 Well its certainly a real thing, especially if you have a chronic condition and you would need to buy a higher level of care than what I described above, but is not impossible to budget for.

Take my example of the Bronze plan above for $2:92 month. Lets assume one member of a couple has a chronic condition. In that case if you bought a Bronze plan you would be forking out $7000/year.

So if you got $7k built into your budget than its all good right? Of course you would probably buy a higher level of HC to have lower max OOP at the expense of a higher monthly cost.

But you're right I think its more a fear of the unknown. When you look at the actual numbers its a lot less scary, especially as there is now much more patient protection against surprise medical bills than there was even just last year!

[ATtiny85]

@Exflyboy , I appreciate both of these recent posts. Nice to see some real numbers.

[Exflyboy]

@Exflyboy , I appreciate both of these recent posts. Nice to see some real numbers.

Your welcome. It just so happens I was asked how much I would want if I got back to work 2 days a week for 3 months.. Of course that means the ACA subsidy gets reduced with more income.. So I did some analysis and was surprised to find that we could earn Quite a bit more without it affecting the subsidy very much.

You can go on the Healthcare.gov and get your own prices for you situation without logging in, so then you will have real numbers.

[tooqk4u22]

Officially rejoining this thread.  Hit $2M a couple days ago. In late 2021 it looked like it was just around the corner, and then 2022 happened.

I am really having a hard time deciding if I like my job or if it stresses me out, and if I should keep working or not.

DH doesn’t like his job, but feels it is unfair to retire before I do.  I am fine with it, but I would expect that he take on a lot of the domestic duties are currently split but still mostly on me.

I’m thinking maybe we get to $3M and then really I quit?  But I said that about $2M before, so IDK.

I keep doing well at work and they keep paying me more, so I feel like I gotta strike while it’s hot.

@catccc
Welcome back!!
We are just a year or two ahead of you in terms of our ages and our kids ages. I FIREd in 2020 (but have been doing a bit of contract work) DH is still working. He loves his job and it covers our crazy crazy tuition bills and provides great insurance. He plans to stay 10 more years but we’ll see what happens.
I’ve found FIRE during this time with the kids to be really helpful because they need to be driven so many places all the time!!  But it’s also frustrating because we can’t really travel until the kids are out of school. Which is another reason DH has been happy to keep working and I’ve done some contact work. We are tied to the house because of the school schedule anyway might as well bring in a little money!
The other difficulty I’ve found in FIRE with kids is that I’m never quite sure what our expenses will be. Tuition is a lot but it’s mostly known. The sports bills really add up and tend to fluctuate. We will have a new driver soon and I have no idea what insurance and vehicle costs will be for him. I’m not sure what college will really be either. And while all these things can be really expensive they will start to significantly taper off in 8 years.
All that to say, I’m glad to be FI. I’m sure you are too. But I can understand with kids the allure of continuing to work and earn more at least until they are (mostly) flown.

BC - I am with you as you know having commented on some of my posts.   Big time struggle having kids aging into driving and college....and wanting to do some great family time trips to lock in the time and memories for years to come (just got back from a kick ass trip to Hawaii).   Kids activity costs are still high but only a year or few left of that, and college costs are overwhelming but we have set aside an amount that covers all but the most expensive schools.......wish i could be like most and buy a vacation home and let my kids be overly indebted from school, but alas I am a sucker.   It's probably still not enough.   

I went back to work and while sucks, I think the original rationale holds and thus far was worth it even if i hate it and I am unhealthier than I was.....setting aside significantly more for college costs and covering a couple of spendy memorable trips was worth it.   

But not for much longer....my state on a mental and physical basis can best be compared to that guy in the Supersize Me documentary.   Sure, some will say it's not worth even in the short term but to each their own. 

TLDR....having 3 teens in a multitude of activies and are likely college bound is F'ing expensive , and for years to come.   

ETA....about 10 years ago I thought we has "Enough" which by the way was less than half of what we have now on an inflation adjusted basis.   At the time, my oldest was 7 and what we had relative to our expenses was spot on....except that our expenses grew as they grew.....everything cost more (food, medical, activities.....did I say activities....oh and trips for 5 cost a f'ck ton...always something.....oh yeah, and then we started thinking about college....WTF).   Without kids no doubt we would have been golden.....butbi love those little (now big f'ers).

The only problem is that bc I was wrong I continue to think I was wrong and I really am not sure how much we need....even though I think we are good.

[ca-rn]

@ca-rn I suspect that when you get there you will find that HC cost is not really a big deal, especially if you have 1) a relatively low yearly expenditure and 2) Some after tax savings you can live on prior to age 65.

I was poking around on the ACA website and up to $54k the monthly cost for a Bronze plan for two people at 62 and 58 was $2:92 per month.. Yes it has a large max OOP.. ($14,000,, or $7,000 if only one of you has a large problem.. like a broken wrist in my case.

At $60,000 income that same plan is $20/month.
[/quote

Thank you, I'll have to take a look again.  I do have rental income which will probably be around 38-43k/year and am a single tax filer.  I plan to do some 401k to RothIra conversions but will most likely alternate having high (conversion year) and low income (no conversion) or go up to a defined tax bracket.

[Exflyboy]

@ca-rn Yes ROTH conversions.. I am tentatively planning to wait on those till I am on Medicare (age 65) where medical cost are relatively fixed independent of income.. I'm hoping that the RMD age moves to 75 by the time I get there.

Medical costs are going to be way higher on Medicare though.. Ouch!

[2sk22]

The only problem is that bc I was wrong I continue to think I was wrong and I really am not sure how much we need....even though I think we are good.

That's the main question that we all have to deal with :-)

 I retired right before my younger one started college but we had set aside her entire college expenses in a separate account which I don't include in my retirement planning (wife insisted on this as she is a lot more risk averse than me). Also, thankfully, my daughter picked a state school. Even with out-of-state tuition, it still a lot less expensive than most private schools.

[Dancin'Dog]

The only problem is that bc I was wrong I continue to think I was wrong and I really am not sure how much we need....even though I think we are good.

That's the main question that we all have to deal with :-)

 I retired right before my younger one started college but we had set aside her entire college expenses in a separate account which I don't include in my retirement planning (wife insisted on this as she is a lot more risk averse than me). Also, thankfully, my daughter picked a state school. Even with out-of-state tuition, it still a lot less expensive than most private schools.

If you have a daughter(s) don't forget to include the price of a wedding.  It's hard to cheap-out on DD's wedding when you're in this thread.  Social media seems to have really helped the wedding industry bump up the expectations of what brides (and their moms) dream of.  Thankfully we're really happy with DD's fiancee and his family.  Otherwise, it would be much more difficult to be happy covering the costs. 


I don't know what most of you are willing to pay, but I offered them a budget of $50K.  That seems generous, from my perspective.  What do you guys think?  DD's parents gave us $10K thirty years ago, but their NW wasn't $7M.  They said that they want a small wedding, of about 50-60 guests (including the wedding party), but want to have it in Italy.  The venue cost $15K for the week, so I figured $50K should cover the food, flowers, photography, etc., plus airfare (for the 3 of us). 


I may offer a bit more later if their plans seem reasonable & the budget begins to look a bit tight.  But DD & BF make $200K+/- combined & his folks' NW seems to be in excess of ours, so I'm thinking someone else can pull out a checkbook if they feel the need.  Am I sounding like a cheapskate? 


DD is an only child, so there's no president to be concerned about.  We can obviously afford more, but I don't enjoy wasteful consumption and I'm not trying to prove anything to anyone. 


What are your views about weddings?  Do you think my numbers and my reasoning seem reasonable?  (DD seemed pleased with the budget, and said that they'd be happy to cover any additional costs.)

[ATtiny85]

If you have a daughter(s) don't forget to include the price of a wedding.  It's hard to cheap-out on DD's wedding when you're in this thread.  Social media seems to have really helped the wedding industry bump up the expectations of what brides (and their moms) dream of.  Thankfully we're really happy with DD's fiancee and his family.  Otherwise, it would be much more difficult to be happy covering the costs. 


I don't know what most of you are willing to pay, but I offered them a budget of $50K.  That seems generous, from my perspective.  What do you guys think?  DD's parents gave us $10K thirty years ago, but their NW wasn't $7M.  They said that they want a small wedding, of about 50-60 guests (including the wedding party), but want to have it in Italy.  The venue cost $15K for the week, so I figured $50K should cover the food, flowers, photography, etc., plus airfare (for the 3 of us). 


I may offer a bit more later if their plans seem reasonable & the budget begins to look a bit tight.  But DD & BF make $200K+/- combined & his folks' NW seems to be in excess of ours, so I'm thinking someone else can pull out a checkbook if they feel the need.  Am I sounding like a cheapskate? 


DD is an only child, so there's no president to be concerned about.  We can obviously afford more, but I don't enjoy wasteful consumption and I'm not trying to prove anything to anyone. 


What are your views about weddings?  Do you think my numbers and my reasoning seem reasonable?  (DD seemed pleased with the budget, and said that they'd be happy to cover any additional costs.)

I think that is 100% completely idiotic. Allowing something as insignificant as social media to influence something is beyond baffling to me, as is thinking that a parents' net worth should influence something. I don't understand why parents pay anything for weddings, especially having those funds as planned / expected. Mine sure didn't, and it never even occurred to me to ask the question. I have no idea if they paid anything for my sibling's wedding, also never occurred to me to ask.

If a couple can't afford the wedding they want, then they should have the wedding they need instead, which is done at the courthouse I believe. Or wait until they save money and can afford it. Or, and this is just crazy talk, have a wedding appropriately scoped for their finances. If a parent wants to provide a cash gift after the fact, great, that's nice. But the couple should be able to handle it on their own, just like the rest of life is supposed to be.

ETA: I know this, like most things, should not be fully black and white, but I you asked for opinions....so I gave my strong one.

[Another Reader]

So I think I'll contact an Ed Jones representative tomorrow.   He's handling many accounts for my former coworkers.  Doubt I'm giving him my accounts to manage.  I just need to nudge him to tell wife we are ready for retirement.

Don't do this.  Read up on this company.  Likely he will tell you that you can't retire, because he's trained to increase the assets he manages.  If you hire him, he will likely recommend products that benefit him and EJ, including annuities.  The fees are atrocious.  If your wife is skeptical, retain a fee-only financial planner (they do not manage your assets) to review your plan. 

[MaybeBabyMustache]

The only problem is that bc I was wrong I continue to think I was wrong and I really am not sure how much we need....even though I think we are good.

That's the main question that we all have to deal with :-)

 I retired right before my younger one started college but we had set aside her entire college expenses in a separate account which I don't include in my retirement planning (wife insisted on this as she is a lot more risk averse than me). Also, thankfully, my daughter picked a state school. Even with out-of-state tuition, it still a lot less expensive than most private schools.

If you have a daughter(s) don't forget to include the price of a wedding.  It's hard to cheap-out on DD's wedding when you're in this thread.  Social media seems to have really helped the wedding industry bump up the expectations of what brides (and their moms) dream of.  Thankfully we're really happy with DD's fiancee and his family.  Otherwise, it would be much more difficult to be happy covering the costs. 


I don't know what most of you are willing to pay, but I offered them a budget of $50K.  That seems generous, from my perspective.  What do you guys think?  DD's parents gave us $10K thirty years ago, but their NW wasn't $7M.  They said that they want a small wedding, of about 50-60 guests (including the wedding party), but want to have it in Italy.  The venue cost $15K for the week, so I figured $50K should cover the food, flowers, photography, etc., plus airfare (for the 3 of us). 


I may offer a bit more later if their plans seem reasonable & the budget begins to look a bit tight.  But DD & BF make $200K+/- combined & his folks' NW seems to be in excess of ours, so I'm thinking someone else can pull out a checkbook if they feel the need.  Am I sounding like a cheapskate? 


DD is an only child, so there's no president to be concerned about.  We can obviously afford more, but I don't enjoy wasteful consumption and I'm not trying to prove anything to anyone. 


What are your views about weddings?  Do you think my numbers and my reasoning seem reasonable?  (DD seemed pleased with the budget, and said that they'd be happy to cover any additional costs.)

Generally, I see this trend changing. Both the "who should pay for a wedding", where the couple is now paying for most of the cost, as well as making the wedding more reasonable. We got married (just the two of us) on the beach in Hawaii for $5k, which included every aspect of the wedding + the honeymoon after, so I'm not a big fan of a big wedding. We've attended some fancy weddings (cost upward of $100k), but they are just not my thing.

I have two teen boys, and we will certainly give them a chunk of money for their weddings when the time comes, but if they choose to use it on the honeymoon or a house or whatever, great.

[arcturus]

@ATtiny85 Well its certainly a real thing, especially if you have a chronic condition and you would need to buy a higher level of care than what I described above, but is not impossible to budget for.

Take my example of the Bronze plan above for $2:92 month. Lets assume one member of a couple has a chronic condition. In that case if you bought a Bronze plan you would be forking out $7000/year.

So if you got $7k built into your budget than its all good right? Of course you would probably buy a higher level of HC to have lower max OOP at the expense of a higher monthly cost.

But you're right I think its more a fear of the unknown. When you look at the actual numbers its a lot less scary, especially as there is now much more patient protection against surprise medical bills than there was even just last year!

I can attest to this being a fear of the unknown for me!   I've seen (and very much appreciate) your assessment of this before @Exflyboy , but its one of those that I'm just reluctant to get too aggressive about in my planning.  This is one of the benefits of just getting in there, doing it, and learning as you go, because I'm 80% sure it will be better than I think it will, based on my own research as well as your posts.   And yet my plan assumes I'm going to pay those premiums for 10 years!   Guess I'm planning for the worst and hoping for the best.

One of my key learnings from you is to tilt your withdrawals in favor of the after-tax brokerage accounts to keep the income low.  I need to create a model that makes this plain and simple for me -- perhaps then I could get more comfortable with it.  Would certainly help with the planning if I could free up $5000+ per year!

[Louise]

The other difficulty I’ve found in FIRE with kids is that I’m never quite sure what our expenses will be. Tuition is a lot but it’s mostly known. The sports bills really add up and tend to fluctuate. We will have a new driver soon and I have no idea what insurance and vehicle costs will be for him. I’m not sure what college will really be either. And while all these things can be really expensive they will start to significantly taper off in 8 years.
All that to say, I’m glad to be FI. I’m sure you are too. But I can understand with kids the allure of continuing to work and earn more at least until they are (mostly) flown.

I'm having so much trouble trying to estimate expenses for the next few years, especially when controlling for ACA/FAFSA. My DH currently works, but will be leaving soon. I don't know how much cash I should build up, if we can do Roth conversions, what college will really cost (are the EFC calcs reliable??), if our home will need big repairs, etc. I realize we have resources, there are a lot of possible gotchas. Maybe I worry too much...

[arcturus]

@Dancin'Dog , I hear you on the wedding budget -- the world has changed and I agree that social media is a big driver of it and this is one area that seems to be booming as a result of it.  It may sound idiotic, but when its your kids its a different thing!   That said, my view is that given the cost escalation, the cost needs to be spread out differently vs 20 years ago.   I think now that much more of the cost should be absorbed by the bride and groom.   So in my mind, your budget is more than generous.  I think if I were in your shoes, I would think about 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 among the parents (of each party) and the married couple.

[Louise]

What are your views about weddings?  Do you think my numbers and my reasoning seem reasonable?  (DD seemed pleased with the budget, and said that they'd be happy to cover any additional costs.)

We will offer money for a wedding, but not a crazy one. Some of the things that people think are so important (expensive dresses, bridal/groom parties, centerpieces, etc., etc.) aren't at all in my view.

I went to two inexpensive weddings that were great. One was BBQ/beer in a public park (they rented the park) and the other was in a church basement with finger food, punch and cake. Both marriages are still going strong.

[BeanCounter]

With regards to spending on children (weddings, tuition, cars etc) I have a hard time saying no. I don’t think that I’m spoiling my children. I don’t buy them things. But I do pay for private school (elementary and HS) I will allow them to pick a college other than where DH works (and would have 80% off tuition room and board) if we feel that school has a better program. I will help with wedding expenses within reason. I think when you’re a multimillionaire (strange as that seems to me) it’s crazy to deny those opportunities and experiences to your child, only for them to inherit it later. How would they feel if I told them “I’m sorry son you can’t do x, y or z because it’s too expensive” and then I drop dead and they inherit $4M. Especially if it’s something my parents paid for for me (private school, a wedding- it was $8k with a band and sit down dinner for 90ppl)

I mean truth be told my kids are going to be confused anyway. The other day my 14yo told me we weren’t rich because we drive Honda’s and don’t own a vacation home. 😂

[Dancin'Dog]

I felt like this was a worthy topic to discuss here and I appreciate the views and opinions shared.  @arcturus ,I like the 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 idea.  I understand the view of letting the couple pay for whatever they can afford, but I feel weddings tend to be sort of like funerals in the sense the parents & their friends are just as excited to celebrate the union and share their pride in their children, and hopefully, in the family they've chosen to join.  From that perspective, I am happy to contribute an amount that I am comfortable with, and wouldn't want to burden the newlyweds with paying for their parents & parents' friends' portion of the gala.  DW seems every bit as excited as DD is about all the planning, and I'm happy to see how happy she is.  We've had some stressful years, between helping with elderly parents, Blacksheep sibling's issues, and Covid-19.  I am thrilled to see happy faces & making happy memories for a change. 


I only mentioned NW because that's how this thread is titled, and that's how I assume most determine their budgets. 


The social media reference was meant to convey not only how we've upped the ante for weddings, but also how it has shaped how we do everything now.  Before social media, it would have been impossible for me to ask your opinions. 


@BeanCounter , I agree with spending it on important while you are alive to enjoy seeing the positive effects, as with education, and enjoying making bonding and making memories, as with traveling and celebrating the goals that they've achieved in life, including choosing a partner.  Leaving a pile of money after my death without spending a bit along the way, leaves a lot of sad "if only"s to remember me by.  That was my main emotion when Dad departed.  He seemed to love amassing money more than enjoying special times with us.  His parents had done the same.  It's my turn to change that trend.  I want to be included in the happy memories.

[MaybeBabyMustache]

It's a good question, @BeanCounter . We are certainly trying to build in lots of experiences with our kids, which includes expensive travel (mostly just to see family, but also ski trips, college tours, etc). For us, that feels like a very worth way to spend our money, and we'd rather enjoy the time together now, vs handing them a pile of cash at "the end". That said, there's a lot of uncertainty in the future, and we will likely start giving them more as we get older. Maybe a down payment for a first house, helping out with college costs for grandkids, paying for family vacations (even when they are adults),etc.

For me, I'm not saying i won't help pay for an expensive wedding, because who knows, but it's just not at the top of my list. I'll give them a chunk of money, and they can spend it how they would like. I'm a huge proponent of public education (and we live in an exceptional school district, which was one of the factors of location when we bought a house), so we're also not paying for any private schools, which saves quite a bit. For college, it's going to be a wild ride to find a school that is a great fit (one of my teens has a learning disorder, & has "okay" grades, at best). We'll pay whatever we need to for college, assuming he's focused & the school is a good fit for him. Same for our other teen.

Once you start filling out financial aid forms, your kids quickly understand how much money you have, so there are no "secrets" about our net worth. Our kids also know how much we make, and the value of our house, as that's come up in conversation in the past. We try to be open (while not bragging) & hitting the right balance of talking about how privileged we are, the importance of giving back, and still being responsible, despite a big income.

[2sk22]

What are your views about weddings?  Do you think my numbers and my reasoning seem reasonable?  (DD seemed pleased with the budget, and said that they'd be happy to cover any additional costs.)

Your budget sounds very fair! We recently attended a lavish high school graduation party that probably cost the hosts at least $20k so $50k for a wedding sounds quite reasonable in comparison :-)

[Exflyboy]

I mean truth be told my kids are going to be confused anyway. The other day my 14yo told me we weren’t rich because we drive Honda’s and don’t own a vacation home. 😂

I love it! I think you have definitely mastered the art of "stealth wealth" if you can keep it from your kids..

As for me I had to decide which of my Walmart Tees shirts to wear to my Drs appointment this morning.. Most of them have little burn holes from stray welding parks..:)

[BeanCounter]

I mean truth be told my kids are going to be confused anyway. The other day my 14yo told me we weren’t rich because we drive Honda’s and don’t own a vacation home. 😂

I love it! I think you have definitely mastered the art of "stealth wealth" if you can keep it from your kids..

As for me I had to decide which of my Walmart Tees shirts to wear to my Drs appointment this morning.. Most of them have little burn holes from stray welding parks..:)

I don’t know that we’ve mastered stealth wealth or if it isn’t that his baseline is screwed up.
Car conversations are really funny with a 14 year old boy
“Mom, wouldn’t it be cool if you could afford a Tesla/bmw/Mercedes?”
Me- “but I don’t want a Tesla/BMW/Mercedes.
“But if you could have one….”
Me- “I like my 12 year old CRV”
“MOM!!” 🙄🙄

I’m very careful to never ever say we can’t afford something. I just say things like-
That doesn’t align with my values.
That wouldn’t be a wise purchase for us.
I don’t WANT to spend that much money on X,y or z.

Iv also been careful to tell them if there are cool school trips you want to go on please talk to us about it and Dad and I will figure out the money if it’s important to you. Because I’m afraid he will assume we can’t afford the German language trip and not ask.
Same with sneakers or athletic equipment, I just ask them to talk to me about it if it’s something that’s really important to you. Because we can give you everything you need but not everything you want.
So far both boys have always made practical choices when it comes to material things. Took the youngest for new shoes last weekend. He went to the store wanting Nike Air Maxx like other boys in his class. When we got there and he saw they were $129 but there were other Nike shoes he liked for $63, he picked the sale shoes. Without me even interjecting.

[Exflyboy]

@BeanCounter I often wonder how wealth transfer and attitudes change as it passes down through generations.

I mean I grew up not quite dirt poor but the East End of London after WW2 was not exactly a thriving place. Then at 13 my Dad sat me down and pointed out the ONE CHANCE I had to make it to a better life was to use the free gift of my education.. Somehow at 13 I listened and the very next day started working my ass off! I didn't stop till I gradated HS 2nd in the school by a couple of points and earned a place at one of the top technical universities in the UK.

My Mum and Dad had almost nothing and what they did have they spent in a heartbeat. I knew I couldn't live like that and fast forward almost 50 years and here we are with a NW of $4M.

Now if I had a kid I would imagine that he/she would somehow have a very different attitude because they wouldn't know any different.. Like Dad would magically just have a fast airplane and a giant SUV blah blah. I.e they wouldn't have a clue what it took to get to their charmed existence.

I suspect trying to instill the values of thrift, hard work and saving might be a bit lost on those who wondered if we would get dinner after a hard day of being the very best in every class they could be.

[secondcor521]

@ca-rn Yes ROTH conversions.. I am tentatively planning to wait on those till I am on Medicare (age 65) where medical cost are relatively fixed independent of income.. I'm hoping that the RMD age moves to 75 by the time I get there.

The RMD is already 75 for you now, assuming the age in your profile is accurate.  It was changed in the Secure 2.0 Act.

I'm doing Roth conversions now, even on ACA.  The ACA subsidy makes Roth conversions past a certain modest range nonsensical, but my spreadsheets seem to indicate that it's worthwhile chipping away at it each year.

[2sk22]

So far both boys have always made practical choices when it comes to material things. Took the youngest for new shoes last weekend. He went to the store wanting Nike Air Maxx like other boys in his class. When we got there and he saw they were $129 but there were other Nike shoes he liked for $63, he picked the sale shoes. Without me even interjecting.

We were generally pretty frugal when our daughters were small so they just assumed that we were not particularly well off. We live in a pretty wealthy corner of NJ - the girls would hear about kids at school who went for vacations in private jets while we went for modest vacations in coach. When it came time to apply to colleges, that was the first time they had an inkling that we had enough stashed away as I was able to tell them that they could apply to any college they wanted and we would pay for it.

[pecunia]

@BeanCounter I often wonder how wealth transfer and attitudes change as it passes down through generations.

I mean I grew up not quite dirt poor but the East End of London after WW2 was not exactly a thriving place. Then at 13 my Dad sat me down and pointed out the ONE CHANCE I had to make it to a better life was to use the free gift of my education.. Somehow at 13 I listened and the very next day started working my ass off! I didn't stop till I gradated HS 2nd in the school by a couple of points and earned a place at one of the top technical universities in the UK.

My Mum and Dad had almost nothing and what they did have they spent in a heartbeat. I knew I couldn't live like that and fast forward almost 50 years and here we are with a NW of $4M.

Now if I had a kid I would imagine that he/she would somehow have a very different attitude because they wouldn't know any different.. Like Dad would magically just have a fast airplane and a giant SUV blah blah. I.e they wouldn't have a clue what it took to get to their charmed existence.

I suspect trying to instill the values of thrift, hard work and saving might be a bit lost on those who wondered if we would get dinner after a hard day of being the very best in every class they could be.

That East End of London was soooo bad they even made a TV show out of it.