Author Topic: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!  (Read 1246820 times)

Taran Wanderer

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6750 on: June 17, 2023, 03:35:41 PM »
One thing to note.. I assume you have a significant part of your stash in after tax savings.. AKA brokerage accounts? The reason being is when you quit you will want to go on the affordable care act and living on after tax "income" means your taxable income can be wound down to very low levels which translates into cheap health insurance.

Actually we have about 2/3 in a mix of pre-tax retirement accounts or Roth accounts, but mostly pre-tax.  The other 1/3 is a mix of real estate, after-tax savings, or specific equity investments (not stocks).  The cleanest way to take money out would be substantially equal payments, but that feels like eating up equity.  If we had put more into real estate, we could have a cash flow stream off of that.

Taran Wanderer

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6751 on: June 17, 2023, 03:41:56 PM »

A. Are you asking about how to decide to FIRE when in a cushy job situation and it's easier to just keep working and earning?

C. Or something else?

Regarding A, yes, how do you get over the psychological hurdle?

And C, is there a way to translate index fund investments into something that kicks off cash, so you're essentially spending the dividends rather than eating up the principal?  Or do you just steadily eat away at the principal (sell "shares") but at such a low withdrawal rate that the remaining share increase in total value more than what you sold?
« Last Edit: June 17, 2023, 03:44:21 PM by Taran Wanderer »

Exflyboy

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6752 on: June 17, 2023, 03:58:38 PM »
After tax brokerage sock funds are throwing off dividends which are subject to cap gains tax. Now if you are in the 12% tax bracket or less then tax divs are taxed at zero%.. Nice

Now you can sell some of those assets to create more "income" and as long as 12% or less then this is also at zero%.

Remember also that cap gains = selling price minus buy price, so You can end up with a lot more cash and little actual cap gains.

For us we typically spend about $50k+, then contribute to our HSA's and end up with a taxable income of around $32k. This then means we get about a $1600/month subsidy on our healthcare. This year we spend less than $3 per month.. Yes 3 dollars!

This is why prior to Medicare age it makes much more sense to live on after tax funds.

Now you should have just stocks (index funds etc) in after tax.. Any bonds should be in pre-tax. If you are worried about asset allocation, simply sell some bonds in pre- tax and buy the same amount of stocks in pre-tax... i.e the same amount you sold in AFTER tax to generate your living expenses.

pecunia

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6753 on: June 17, 2023, 05:18:52 PM »
After tax brokerage sock funds are throwing off dividends which are subject to cap gains tax. Now if you are in the 12% tax bracket or less then tax divs are taxed at zero%.. Nice

Now you can sell some of those assets to create more "income" and as long as 12% or less then this is also at zero%.

Remember also that cap gains = selling price minus buy price, so You can end up with a lot more cash and little actual cap gains.

For us we typically spend about $50k+, then contribute to our HSA's and end up with a taxable income of around $32k. This then means we get about a $1600/month subsidy on our healthcare. This year we spend less than $3 per month.. Yes 3 dollars!

This is why prior to Medicare age it makes much more sense to live on after tax funds.

Now you should have just stocks (index funds etc) in after tax.. Any bonds should be in pre-tax. If you are worried about asset allocation, simply sell some bonds in pre- tax and buy the same amount of stocks in pre-tax... i.e the same amount you sold in AFTER tax to generate your living expenses.

It's kind of odd.  In a few years, you will have Medicare and pay much more.  It's supposed to be the other way around.

Exflyboy

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6754 on: June 17, 2023, 05:42:20 PM »
@pecunia Yeah I reckon that Medicare ($164*2) with an insurance plan to cover the 20% (about $700) will be roughly my entire Social security check!..

 (one third of my SS, that I earned gets stolen because I had the audacity to contribute to a private UK pension plan before I even knew where the USA was)

This assumes that MC and insurance is paid after tax.. But I don't know how that works.

How anybody hopes to retire on just SS alone is beyond me.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2023, 05:46:35 PM by Exflyboy »

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6755 on: June 17, 2023, 05:50:05 PM »
After tax brokerage sock funds are throwing off dividends which are subject to cap gains tax. Now if you are in the 12% tax bracket or less then tax divs are taxed at zero%.. Nice

Now you can sell some of those assets to create more "income" and as long as 12% or less then this is also at zero%.

Remember also that cap gains = selling price minus buy price, so You can end up with a lot more cash and little actual cap gains.

For us we typically spend about $50k+, then contribute to our HSA's and end up with a taxable income of around $32k. This then means we get about a $1600/month subsidy on our healthcare. This year we spend less than $3 per month.. Yes 3 dollars!

This is why prior to Medicare age it makes much more sense to live on after tax funds.

Now you should have just stocks (index funds etc) in after tax.. Any bonds should be in pre-tax. If you are worried about asset allocation, simply sell some bonds in pre- tax and buy the same amount of stocks in pre-tax... i.e the same amount you sold in AFTER tax to generate your living expenses.

It's kind of odd.  In a few years, you will have Medicare and pay much more.  It's supposed to be the other way around.

I have been given the impression that Medicare is better (more widely accepted, covers more, and no more figuring out healthcare plan stuff) than ACA.  You are probably referring to buying the additional Part D (prescription) coverage (or Medicare Advantage, which can be scammy) or Medigap (also can be scammy)... 

I'm no expert on this stuff, still have 15 years and several trillion more dollars of accruing unfunded government liability before it's my turn.

Exflyboy

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6756 on: June 17, 2023, 05:57:24 PM »
@EscapeVelocity2020 The problem with Medicare is the 20% UNLIMITED exposure on part B. With some oral chemo's costing like $1M. year.. Umm year, not so much!

secondcor521

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6757 on: June 17, 2023, 07:05:12 PM »

A. Are you asking about how to decide to FIRE when in a cushy job situation and it's easier to just keep working and earning?

C. Or something else?

Regarding A, yes, how do you get over the psychological hurdle?

And C, is there a way to translate index fund investments into something that kicks off cash, so you're essentially spending the dividends rather than eating up the principal?  Or do you just steadily eat away at the principal (sell "shares") but at such a low withdrawal rate that the remaining share increase in total value more than what you sold?

Others have sort of answered A, but I'll give you my answers:

First, you have to decide for yourself that you have enough money, and that you're some combination of sick and tired of working, or have other stuff you'd rather do.  To determine I had enough, I had to read and understand a lot of the research on the 4% rule AND I had to run my own numbers through a bunch of calculators and come out OK AND I had to have the example of my Dad retiring AND I worked two years longer AND I wrote up my FIRE plan and had it reviewed AND I documented about 35 contingency plans.  Other folks just say "Oh, I'll make it work somehow" and quit their job without any research.  It's really an individual decision, and you'll figure out what you need and how much margin you need.

Second, it does help to realize that your time on Earth is finite and limited and the last X years of your life might be more survival than living it up and your opportunity to do those things you've always wanted to do is limited.

...

As for C:

First, index funds will throw off some dividends and capital gains distributions.  Most people spend those because they're taxable income anyway.  A few people have such a low withdrawal rate that they can just live off those dividends.

But for me and most others, we do also sell off some shares from time to time for additional cash flow.  And you're right, what ideally and most often happens is that the remaining shares grow in value to offset those share sales.

I avoid making a strong distinction between income such as dividends and the principal, and am a "total return" investor.  In fact, I prefer lower dividends because then I can control my tax situation better.  Reading about investing for total return may provide you with some insights.

HTH.

2sk22

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6758 on: June 18, 2023, 03:06:27 AM »

Others have sort of answered A, but I'll give you my answers:

First, you have to decide for yourself that you have enough money, and that you're some combination of sick and tired of working, or have other stuff you'd rather do.  To determine I had enough, I had to read and understand a lot of the research on the 4% rule AND I had to run my own numbers through a bunch of calculators and come out OK AND I had to have the example of my Dad retiring AND I worked two years longer AND I wrote up my FIRE plan and had it reviewed AND I documented about 35 contingency plans.  Other folks just say "Oh, I'll make it work somehow" and quit their job without any research.  It's really an individual decision, and you'll figure out what you need and how much margin you need.

Second, it does help to realize that your time on Earth is finite and limited and the last X years of your life might be more survival than living it up and your opportunity to do those things you've always wanted to do is limited.

...

As for C:

First, index funds will throw off some dividends and capital gains distributions.  Most people spend those because they're taxable income anyway.  A few people have such a low withdrawal rate that they can just live off those dividends.

But for me and most others, we do also sell off some shares from time to time for additional cash flow.  And you're right, what ideally and most often happens is that the remaining shares grow in value to offset those share sales.

I avoid making a strong distinction between income such as dividends and the principal, and am a "total return" investor.  In fact, I prefer lower dividends because then I can control my tax situation better.  Reading about investing for total return may provide you with some insights.

HTH.

Regarding dividends, if you want a long and somewhat enjoyable Sunday read, take a look at this ongoing discussion on Bogleheads on this very topic : https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=406429

My own position is that dividends are just a part of the overall returns. As Nisiprius says (https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7310789#p7310789)

Quote
"I got money and I didn't need to sell shares" sounds convincing, but it is an illusion.

ATtiny85

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6759 on: June 18, 2023, 03:00:43 PM »
That is an entertaining thread. I have been participating a bit. Itís hopefully been helpful to a few misguided folks.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6760 on: June 18, 2023, 05:00:12 PM »
I'm not going to read the whole thread, but hopefully someone pointed out that high dividend yield stocks (like Exxon) and low dividend stocks (like Nvidia) have a reason they are that way.  Yes, we are all total return investors in the idea that we want the highest risk adjusted return, but that means different levels of dividend yield stocks are preferable to different investors.

I personally think retirees holding VOO don't realize how high their exposure is to a relative handful of tech companies (https://www.slickcharts.com/sp500) and I own some high dividend yield stocks to help offset this.  It has cost me some gains in the up years, but counteracted my losses in 2022.  And that's exactly what I'm after, a smoother ride that is still up and to the right.  If I were to become incapacitated, my family is less likely to experience a harrowing drawdown and hopefully they too will 'stay the course'.

pecunia

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6761 on: June 18, 2023, 05:10:43 PM »
@pecunia Yeah I reckon that Medicare ($164*2) with an insurance plan to cover the 20% (about $700) will be roughly my entire Social security check!..

 (one third of my SS, that I earned gets stolen because I had the audacity to contribute to a private UK pension plan before I even knew where the USA was)

This assumes that MC and insurance is paid after tax.. But I don't know how that works.

How anybody hopes to retire on just SS alone is beyond me.

Yes - Supplementary Insurance is required and drug insurance.  You can get "Medicare Advantage," for less money but if you get a serious illness it can be bad.

Your UK retirement should be able to help.  In fact, you should be able to hop on a plane for serious stuff and get it taken care of over there.

Your Medicare premium is based on income.  I've not signed for SS yet, but I'm quite sure it will cover the Medicare.

The best thing is to take long hikes in that beautiful Oregon countryside to stay healthy.

achvfi

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6762 on: June 19, 2023, 11:22:58 AM »
Pro tips request

Hello 2-4 and beyond people,

My in-laws are in early 60s and FIL is retired and MIL is planning to work next 5 years with 40-50 K income.

In their portfolio they have about $ 1.7 million in T-IRA and they have more than that in other accounts. So they have funds to pay taxes to do Roth conversions.

At 70 they expect social security payments to cover most if not all of their annual expenses.

Between MIL income and dividends and cap gains they are at the edge of 12% tax bracket. They also have some RMDs from inherited IRAs.

Question is:

Is it worth it to cross over into 22% to start converting T-IRA investments to Roth IRA.

22% tax bracket (+5% state tax) + long term capital gains increasing from 0% tax to 15% on the dividends + Medicare IRRMA increases

Are there any blind spots we need to keep in mind?

Some of you might be in the same boat as my family. What is your strategy to reduce huge RMDs and its tax implications when you reach 73-75?

secondcor521

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6763 on: June 19, 2023, 01:14:37 PM »
Pro tips request

Hello 2-4 and beyond people,

My in-laws are in early 60s and FIL is retired and MIL is planning to work next 5 years with 40-50 K income.

In their portfolio they have about $ 1.7 million in T-IRA and they have more than that in other accounts. So they have funds to pay taxes to do Roth conversions.

At 70 they expect social security payments to cover most if not all of their annual expenses.

Between MIL income and dividends and cap gains they are at the edge of 12% tax bracket. They also have some RMDs from inherited IRAs.

Question is:

Is it worth it to cross over into 22% to start converting T-IRA investments to Roth IRA.

22% tax bracket (+5% state tax) + long term capital gains increasing from 0% tax to 15% on the dividends + Medicare IRRMA increases

Are there any blind spots we need to keep in mind?

Some of you might be in the same boat as my family. What is your strategy to reduce huge RMDs and its tax implications when you reach 73-75?

There are a lot of things to keep in mind, but two that might apply to your particular situation are any ACA subsidies they may receive between now and 65, and the SS tax hump that might hit them if they're in the income range where more income pushes more of their SS to be taxed.

I'd recommend getting a hold of the Case Study Spreadsheet and doing a proforma tax return for them for (a) the current year and (b) what they expect when they're both 73 and have to start RMDs and will also both have SS probably, plus any investment income (and any inherited RMDs that are still happening).  This way you can see what their marginal rate is across a wide range of Roth conversions and pick what makes sense.

You also get to decide what you think about the sunset of the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act on 1/1/2026.  If nothing is done, rates and brackets will revert higher.  Something probably will be done but what that is is anyone's guess.

You'll probably find that Roth converting now at 22% federal, even though it seems high now, might be a bargain compared to their age 73 rate.

Other than Roth conversions, the only other knob I know to twist to help with RMDs is to suggest that your MIL stop work yesterday.  Someone's probably thought of that already though.

achvfi

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6764 on: June 19, 2023, 05:03:58 PM »
There are a lot of things to keep in mind, but two that might apply to your particular situation are any ACA subsidies they may receive between now and 65, and the SS tax hump that might hit them if they're in the income range where more income pushes more of their SS to be taxed.

I'd recommend getting a hold of the Case Study Spreadsheet and doing a proforma tax return for them for (a) the current year and (b) what they expect when they're both 73 and have to start RMDs and will also both have SS probably, plus any investment income (and any inherited RMDs that are still happening).  This way you can see what their marginal rate is across a wide range of Roth conversions and pick what makes sense.

You also get to decide what you think about the sunset of the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act on 1/1/2026.  If nothing is done, rates and brackets will revert higher.  Something probably will be done but what that is is anyone's guess.

You'll probably find that Roth converting now at 22% federal, even though it seems high now, might be a bargain compared to their age 73 rate.

Other than Roth conversions, the only other knob I know to twist to help with RMDs is to suggest that your MIL stop work yesterday.  Someone's probably thought of that already though.
Thanks @secondcor521. It makes sense to spreadsheet all the income till next 30 years and compare tax rates and you are right it feels like 22% rate might be a bargain.

More information:
MIL is not comfortable to retire until they are on Medicare. They both are on her employer provided insurance and switch to Medicare when they reach the age. So ACA may not apply to them.

Based on rough calculations seems to me by 73 they may have close to $300000 in income including Social security, RMDs and cap gains and still be in 22 or 25% tax bracket.  Resulting more than 60K+ in taxes to start off.  But income will quickly escalate in the years following and so will higher taxes.

secondcor521

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6765 on: June 19, 2023, 05:28:01 PM »
There are a lot of things to keep in mind, but two that might apply to your particular situation are any ACA subsidies they may receive between now and 65, and the SS tax hump that might hit them if they're in the income range where more income pushes more of their SS to be taxed.

I'd recommend getting a hold of the Case Study Spreadsheet and doing a proforma tax return for them for (a) the current year and (b) what they expect when they're both 73 and have to start RMDs and will also both have SS probably, plus any investment income (and any inherited RMDs that are still happening).  This way you can see what their marginal rate is across a wide range of Roth conversions and pick what makes sense.

You also get to decide what you think about the sunset of the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act on 1/1/2026.  If nothing is done, rates and brackets will revert higher.  Something probably will be done but what that is is anyone's guess.

You'll probably find that Roth converting now at 22% federal, even though it seems high now, might be a bargain compared to their age 73 rate.

Other than Roth conversions, the only other knob I know to twist to help with RMDs is to suggest that your MIL stop work yesterday.  Someone's probably thought of that already though.
Thanks @secondcor521. It makes sense to spreadsheet all the income till next 30 years and compare tax rates and you are right it feels like 22% rate might be a bargain.

More information:
MIL is not comfortable to retire until they are on Medicare. They both are on her employer provided insurance and switch to Medicare when they reach the age. So ACA may not apply to them.

Based on rough calculations seems to me by 73 they may have close to $300000 in income including Social security, RMDs and cap gains and still be in 22 or 25% tax bracket.  Resulting more than 60K+ in taxes to start off.  But income will quickly escalate in the years following and so will higher taxes.

It's hard to find information on what the 2026 rates would be absent legislation.  They're the 2017 rates increased by 10 years worth of CPI, I think.  Anyway, from what I could tell $300K might land them in the 28% or even a bit into the 33% post-TCJA world.  Hard to tell; if it's important you should research it further.

You might also want to look at the tax brackets after one of them passes away.  Depending on which one it is, how long, who the traditional IRA is bequeathed to, and what sources of income disappear, the survivor may be in a very high bracket.

The other scenario is when both of them pass and their IRA is inherited.  Usually in that situation the beneficiary has 10 years to empty it and that beneficiary may be in high earning years like their late 40's to late 50's.

I'd recommend MIL take another look at ACA, but I understand it just doesn't work for some people.  I hope she enjoys her job.

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6766 on: June 19, 2023, 07:58:37 PM »
So you could make the whole question a math problem.  If today, they were 72 and required to take RMDs, the first year is what's in 401k/tIRA type accounts and divide by 25.6.  With 1.7M, that's $66,400.  Say the 2 of them get social security and I'll just make an educated guess that for the 2 of them, they get $70k a year.  So with no "real" income or normal withdrawals, they're at $136,400.  I'm not a tax guy, but from the charts, that's well into the 22% current bracket that in 2026 will be 25% because of the sunset of current rates.  This does not take into account taxable account dividends or interest which can sneak up on you.  The other number they'll want to stay away from is the Medicare IRMMA number because if income exceeds it by $1, rates jump.  There's room but be sure about total income as the number for married filing jointly is $194k. 

I'm pretty sensitive to all this because I retire Friday, get a week of work insurance then on July 1st am on Medicare.  My income 2 years ago (what they look at) was over the IRMMA limit so I filed an appeal to get below that (which doubles the part B and increases drug plan) since my work income stops at 1/2 the year.  I do plan to Roth convert to a careful amount that is below the IRMMA limit.

secondcor521

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6767 on: June 19, 2023, 08:23:04 PM »
There's room but be sure about total income as the number for married filing jointly is $194k. 

The IRMAA limits are now increased yearly by some inflation factor.  It might be $194K this year but is likely to be several thousand dollars higher than that each subsequent year.

There are also multiple IRMAA brackets.

Note IRMAA is based on MAGI and the tax brackets are based on taxable income.  One generally has to subtract the standard or itemized deduuction from MAGI to get to taxable income.

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6768 on: June 20, 2023, 02:47:20 AM »
Is it worth it to cross over into 22% to start converting T-IRA investments to Roth IRA.

It's definitely worthwhile if you think you will be in an even higher tax bracket when the RMDs kick in. Kitces has a good article about this: https://www.kitces.com/blog/using-systematic-partial-roth-ira-conversions-and-recharacterizations-to-fill-the-lower-tax-bracket-buckets/

Like your in-laws, our spending needs can be met solely with our taxable accounts so I guess you can say we wildly overshot our savings goals. I am waiting for my wife to retire in order to start aggressive Roth conversions and plan to fill the 32% bucket (in Kitces' terminology) with Roth conversions. One good thing that has happened is that my RMD age is 75 so I have more runway to do these Roth conversions.

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6769 on: June 20, 2023, 07:57:57 AM »
So you could make the whole question a math problem.  If today, they were 72 and required to take RMDs, the first year is what's in 401k/tIRA type accounts and divide by 25.6.  With 1.7M, that's $66,400.  Say the 2 of them get social security and I'll just make an educated guess that for the 2 of them, they get $70k a year.  So with no "real" income or normal withdrawals, they're at $136,400.  I'm not a tax guy, but from the charts, that's well into the 22% current bracket that in 2026 will be 25% because of the sunset of current rates.  This does not take into account taxable account dividends or interest which can sneak up on you.  The other number they'll want to stay away from is the Medicare IRMMA number because if income exceeds it by $1, rates jump.  There's room but be sure about total income as the number for married filing jointly is $194k. 

I'm pretty sensitive to all this because I retire Friday, get a week of work insurance then on July 1st am on Medicare.  My income 2 years ago (what they look at) was over the IRMMA limit so I filed an appeal to get below that (which doubles the part B and increases drug plan) since my work income stops at 1/2 the year.  I do plan to Roth convert to a careful amount that is below the IRMMA limit.

Congratulations on your upcoming retirement.

achvfi

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6770 on: June 20, 2023, 03:40:04 PM »
It's hard to find information on what the 2026 rates would be absent legislation.  They're the 2017 rates increased by 10 years worth of CPI, I think.  Anyway, from what I could tell $300K might land them in the 28% or even a bit into the 33% post-TCJA world.  Hard to tell; if it's important you should research it further.

You might also want to look at the tax brackets after one of them passes away.  Depending on which one it is, how long, who the traditional IRA is bequeathed to, and what sources of income disappear, the survivor may be in a very high bracket.

The other scenario is when both of them pass and their IRA is inherited.  Usually in that situation the beneficiary has 10 years to empty it and that beneficiary may be in high earning years like their late 40's to late 50's.

I'd recommend MIL take another look at ACA, but I understand it just doesn't work for some people.  I hope she enjoys her job.
MIL is comfortable with Employer insurance and Medicare. She is skeptic towards ACA and it is not going to change. So overall it works out for them till they go on to Medicare. Its good problem to have I guess.

Taking into consideration

1) Growth in portfolio size over time and various income sources that will move them into higher higher tax brackets after 10 years
2) Risk of one passing away will move spouse into higher tax brackets.
3) It is possible they wont spend most of money that is distributed from RMDs, Dividends and capital gains. So it will be reinvested into brokerage account and will start distributing more dividends and cap gains.
4) Roth IRA is better for beneficiaries inheriting it. Brokerages are decent account too since there will be step up in basis.

It is looking like a better deal to start Roth conversions into 22% tax brackets.




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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6771 on: June 20, 2023, 08:22:35 PM »


We have a relatively large portfolio - even assuming inflated expense levels, we are probably at a 2.25% SWR - and could probably stop working...but I can't help from feeling uneasy when I read comments like these.

The market doesn't give you average returns year over year, it gives you actuals.  40 years from now we might look back and realize an 8% or 10% return.  Or, it could be more, or less, but year to year, it can vary wildly.  And it's hard to argue against folks that point to the correlations between a) high valuations like we have today and b) lower expected returns.

Undoubtedly, someone will read this that has been investing or invested in the markets for 20+ years.  I hope they weigh in with their perspective.

Personally, as a 41 year old, I didn't have "real" money in the market until 2011/2012, and the markets have been good to us all over that time period.  So, my track record is only 10 years.  If I pull the plug now, i could need to live off my portfolio for 50 years.

i don't post often, and love this group and the optimism they imbue, but when i see folks in other threads talking about buying stocks on margin, or selling their homes to invest in ARK funds, or counting on a 10% return, it makes me uneasy.

I don't think "this time is different" but I do think there are clouds on the horizon.  i suppose that's why i am at a <2.5% SWR...

sorry for the rant, i don't want to be the resident raincloud.
[/quote]
I haven't been back to this forum for a few years but interesting to see my last post. More interesting i suppose is that i changed nothing about my investing strategy and continued to invest in broad-based stock and bond index funds.  we are way beyond the "beyond" level and have decided to gradually increase consumption as we both enjoy our jobs.

wannabe-stache

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6772 on: June 20, 2023, 08:34:08 PM »
These numbers are in millions, and are baffling.  Our net worth increased $500k just in the last 3 months due to market appreciation.  that is more than 90+% of the US population makes in a year on income alone?

and i don't own TSLA, or Nikola, or any of the other high flyers. mostly index funds.

At the beginning of this year i was thinking "we are set".  Then, we gained nearly $2MM this year due to heavy rebalancing and large one-time bonuses.  and i still have one more year syndrome.

this isn't a humblebrag or even celebratory.  i am no happier than i was $2MM ago...i don't recall how much money i wanted to have when i was 20 or even 30 years old but it certainly wasn't $6MM.  and i think i was happier when i was poor and 25 years old...
   
Liquid Net Worth   Home   Change   Total
12/31/2016   $1.371    $0.56       $1.93
Jan-17   $1.444    $0.56    $79    $2.01
Feb-17   $1.467    $0.57    $29    $2.04
Mar-17   $1.535    $0.57    $73    $2.11
Apr-17   $1.552    $0.58    $24    $2.13
May-17   $1.600    $0.58    $50    $2.18
Jun-17   $1.636    $0.58    $38    $2.22
Jul-17   $1.741    $0.59    $107    $2.33
Aug-17   $1.788    $0.59    $49    $2.38
Sep-17   $1.821    $0.59    $35    $2.41
Oct-17   $2.019    $0.64    $243    $2.65
Nov-17   $2.100    $0.64    $83    $2.74
Dec-17   $2.167    $0.64    $70    $2.81
Jan-18   $2.228    $0.70    $123    $2.93
Feb-18   $2.196    $0.75    $15    $2.95
Mar-18   $2.216    $0.75    $20    $2.97
Apr-18   $2.279    $0.75    $63    $3.03
May-18   $2.340    $0.75    $61    $3.09
Jun-18   $2.395    $0.75    $55    $3.15
Jul-18   $2.445    $0.75    $50    $3.19
Aug-18   $2.495    $0.75    $50    $3.24
Sep-18   $2.500    $0.75    $5    $3.25
Oct-18   $2.417    $0.75    ($83)   $3.17
Nov-18   $2.482    $0.75    $65    $3.23
Dec-18   $2.406    $0.75    ($76)   $3.16
Jan-19   $2.594    $0.75    $188    $3.34
Feb-19   $2.685    $0.75    $91    $3.43
Mar-19   $2.700    $0.75    $15    $3.45
Apr-19   $2.872    $0.75    $172    $3.62
May-19   $2.806    $0.75    ($66)   $3.56
Jun-19   $2.935    $0.75    $129    $3.69
Jul-19   $2.993    $0.75    $58    $3.74
Aug-19   $3.006    $0.75    $12    $3.76
Sep-19   $3.035    $0.75    $30    $3.79
Oct-19   $3.124    $0.75    $88    $3.87
Nov-19   $3.186    $0.75    $62    $3.94
Dec-19   $3.357    $0.75    $171    $4.11
Jan-20   $3.590    $0.75    $232    $4.34
Feb-20   $3.453    $0.78    ($112)   $4.23
Mar-20   $2.863    $1.10    ($265)   $3.96
Apr-20   $3.546    $1.10    $685    $4.65
May-20   $3.726    $1.10    $181    $4.83
Jun-20   $3.811    $1.10    $87    $4.92
Jul-20   $4.028    $1.11    $218    $5.13
Aug-20   $4.242    $1.11    $217    $5.35
Sep-20   $4.473    $1.11    $232    $5.58
Oct-20   $4.460    $0.98    ($145)   $5.44
Nov-20   $4.893    $0.98    $435    $5.87
Dec-20   $5.062    $0.98    $171    $6.04

2022 wasn't fun but i equate it to adding logs to a fire that was dwindling...

   Liquid Net Worth   Home Equity   Change   Total
Dec-16   $1.371    $0.56       $1.93
Jan-17   $1.444    $0.56    $79    $2.01
Feb-17   $1.467    $0.57    $29    $2.04
Mar-17   $1.535    $0.57    $73    $2.11
Apr-17   $1.552    $0.58    $24    $2.13
May-17   $1.600    $0.58    $50    $2.18
Jun-17   $1.636    $0.58    $38    $2.22
Jul-17   $1.741    $0.59    $107    $2.33
Aug-17   $1.788    $0.59    $49    $2.38
Sep-17   $1.821    $0.59    $35    $2.41
Oct-17   $2.019    $0.64    $243    $2.65
Nov-17   $2.100    $0.64    $83    $2.74
Dec-17   $2.167    $0.64    $70    $2.81
Jan-18   $2.228    $0.70    $123    $2.93
Feb-18   $2.196    $0.75    $15    $2.95
Mar-18   $2.216    $0.75    $20    $2.97
Apr-18   $2.279    $0.75    $63    $3.03
May-18   $2.340    $0.75    $61    $3.09
Jun-18   $2.395    $0.75    $55    $3.15
Jul-18   $2.445    $0.75    $50    $3.19
Aug-18   $2.495    $0.75    $50    $3.24
Sep-18   $2.500    $0.75    $5    $3.25
Oct-18   $2.417    $0.75    ($83)   $3.17
Nov-18   $2.482    $0.75    $65    $3.23
Dec-18   $2.406    $0.75    ($76)   $3.16
Jan-19   $2.594    $0.75    $188    $3.34
Feb-19   $2.685    $0.75    $91    $3.43
Mar-19   $2.700    $0.75    $15    $3.45
Apr-19   $2.872    $0.75    $172    $3.62
May-19   $2.806    $0.75    ($66)   $3.56
Jun-19   $2.935    $0.75    $129    $3.69
Jul-19   $2.993    $0.75    $58    $3.74
Aug-19   $3.006    $0.75    $12    $3.76
Sep-19   $3.035    $0.75    $30    $3.79
Oct-19   $3.124    $0.75    $88    $3.87
Nov-19   $3.186    $0.75    $62    $3.94
Dec-19   $3.357    $0.75    $171    $4.11
Jan-20   $3.590    $0.75    $232    $4.34
Feb-20   $3.453    $0.78    ($112)   $4.23
Mar-20   $2.863    $1.10    ($265)   $3.96
Apr-20   $3.546    $1.10    $685    $4.65
May-20   $3.726    $1.10    $181    $4.83
Jun-20   $3.811    $1.10    $87    $4.92
Jul-20   $4.028    $1.11    $218    $5.13
Aug-20   $4.242    $1.11    $217    $5.35
Sep-20   $4.473    $1.11    $232    $5.58
Oct-20   $4.460    $0.98    ($145)   $5.44
Nov-20   $4.893    $0.98    $435    $5.87
Dec-20   $5.062    $0.98    $171    $6.04
Jan-21   $5.109    $0.98    $48    $6.09
Feb-21   $5.244    $0.98    $137    $6.23
Mar-21   $5.828    $0.99    $585    $6.81
Apr-21   $6.180    $1.03    $393    $7.21
May-21   $6.017    $1.43    $237    $7.44
Jun-21   $6.115    $1.43    $101    $7.55
Jul-21   $6.323    $1.43    $208    $7.75
Aug-21   $6.281    $1.51    $32    $7.79
Sep-21   $6.147    $1.56    ($82)   $7.70
Oct-21   $6.418    $1.56    $272    $7.98
Nov-21   $6.412    $1.63    $66    $8.04
Dec-21   $6.575    $1.63    $163    $8.21
Jan-22   $6.897    $1.25    ($58)   $8.15
Feb-22   $6.699    $1.25    ($198)   $7.95
Mar-22   $6.869    $1.25    $170    $8.12
Apr-22   $6.772    $1.25    ($97)   $8.02
May-22   $6.482    $1.25    ($290)   $7.73
Jun-22   $6.522    $1.30    $90    $7.82
Jul-22   $6.841    $1.30    $318    $8.14
Aug-22   $6.209    $1.50    ($432)   $7.71
Sep-22   $6.209    $1.50    $0    $7.71
Oct-22   $6.449    $1.50    $241    $7.95
Nov-22   $6.939    $1.50    $490    $8.44
Dec-22   $6.700    $1.50    ($239)   $8.20
Jan-23   $6.915    $1.50    $214    $8.41
Feb-23   $7.230    $1.50    $316    $8.73
Mar-23   $7.432    $1.50    $202    $8.93
Apr-23   $7.732    $1.50    $300    $9.23
May-23   $7.953    $1.50    $221    $9.45
Jun-23   $8.202    $1.50    $249    $9.70
   

rmorris50

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6773 on: June 21, 2023, 07:25:15 AM »
We all fret about making it work, will our portfolios last, do we have enough, etc etc.

On Monday I applied for SNAP and Medicaid for my disabled mom. She is down to her last couple thousand in her bank account at age 72. She gets paid $1500 a month in social security, half which goes to rent for her little one bed room apt.

I offered her my first floor bedroom. She continues to refuse - thatís a whole different conversation tho.

Our tail, worse case scenario is her reality, like many Americans.

All us in this thread will be fine.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

ixtap

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6774 on: June 21, 2023, 09:29:36 AM »
This is the only "race" thread that I have ever participated in because it is more about what being here means than any race.

We aren't quite where we want to be. We are basically FI, but want a big toy, so we keep trucking. Right now, we can afford the big toy or we can afford the lifestyle increase that it will cause (insurance, taxes, maintenance), but not both. Meanwhile, DH is considering syphoning off this year's savings to help a friend start a business. Basically, we are all over the place.

Dancin'Dog

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6775 on: June 21, 2023, 09:50:44 AM »
This is the only "race" thread that I have ever participated in because it is more about what being here means than any race.

We aren't quite where we want to be. We are basically FI, but want a big toy, so we keep trucking. Right now, we can afford the big toy or we can afford the lifestyle increase that it will cause (insurance, taxes, maintenance), but not both. Meanwhile, DH is considering syphoning off this year's savings to help a friend start a business. Basically, we are all over the place.




Tell us about the "big toy".  Is it a plane, a yacht, an RV, an AI robot, or something else?  I love browsing for things I'll never actually buy but enjoy fantasizing about buying.  I mainly bounce between looking at planes & boats but know I'll never commit to the hassle of owning either.  You obviously have your sights set on something special.

arcturus

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6776 on: June 21, 2023, 10:23:31 AM »
holy guacamole @wannabe-stache !!    I can only assume you have now FIRE'd or else you simply love your job and will likely only stop when it stops being fun!   Its difficult to conjure a scenario in which you're not ok, given these numbers!  Great work, btw!!

ixtap

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6777 on: June 21, 2023, 12:30:14 PM »
This is the only "race" thread that I have ever participated in because it is more about what being here means than any race.

We aren't quite where we want to be. We are basically FI, but want a big toy, so we keep trucking. Right now, we can afford the big toy or we can afford the lifestyle increase that it will cause (insurance, taxes, maintenance), but not both. Meanwhile, DH is considering syphoning off this year's savings to help a friend start a business. Basically, we are all over the place.




Tell us about the "big toy".  Is it a plane, a yacht, an RV, an AI robot, or something else?  I love browsing for things I'll never actually buy but enjoy fantasizing about buying.  I mainly bounce between looking at planes & boats but know I'll never commit to the hassle of owning either.  You obviously have your sights set on something special.

It is the same size yacht we have, but fresh off the line instead of nearly 40 years old. There are a lot of cool things happening in newer yachts, and we are looking at sailing boats that let you sit and look out from inside, have central HVAC and possibly even all electric, although are now leaning towards a brand that would not facilitate that (might get them to drop the price by the amount of the diesel engine, but the electric motor would have to be installed after delivery).

We love living on our boat. Even if we never cruise as much as we hope to, as long as we can find a dock to tie up to, any of the boats we are considering will be lovely homes.

Dancin'Dog

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6778 on: June 21, 2023, 01:36:11 PM »
This is the only "race" thread that I have ever participated in because it is more about what being here means than any race.

We aren't quite where we want to be. We are basically FI, but want a big toy, so we keep trucking. Right now, we can afford the big toy or we can afford the lifestyle increase that it will cause (insurance, taxes, maintenance), but not both. Meanwhile, DH is considering syphoning off this year's savings to help a friend start a business. Basically, we are all over the place.




Tell us about the "big toy".  Is it a plane, a yacht, an RV, an AI robot, or something else?  I love browsing for things I'll never actually buy but enjoy fantasizing about buying.  I mainly bounce between looking at planes & boats but know I'll never commit to the hassle of owning either.  You obviously have your sights set on something special.

It is the same size yacht we have, but fresh off the line instead of nearly 40 years old. There are a lot of cool things happening in newer yachts, and we are looking at sailing boats that let you sit and look out from inside, have central HVAC and possibly even all electric, although are now leaning towards a brand that would not facilitate that (might get them to drop the price by the amount of the diesel engine, but the electric motor would have to be installed after delivery).

We love living on our boat. Even if we never cruise as much as we hope to, as long as we can find a dock to tie up to, any of the boats we are considering will be lovely homes.




That sounds really cool.  I didn't realize you're living on a yacht.  We both really like the water and boating too, but our personalities aren't compatible enough to live on one full-time.  (The survivor would get lonely!)  The type of vessel you describe sounds like a worthy thing to work towards.  I wonder if the brand you want might be open to developing the systems you want considering the future is green.  Perhaps they just need the right client to approach them about it.  A full-time liveaboard couple seems like the type of people they would want to work with, considering the wealth of practical experience you could bring to the table.  Maybe your boat could act as their green development prototype, and you could work with them as ongoing systems monitoring consultants.  (Ask for a discounted boat in return for your services, they cover & install the electric motor, etc., and you call when it's acting up.  Offer them a 10-year durability monitoring plan.) 


:~)

ixtap

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6779 on: June 21, 2023, 02:14:40 PM »
This is the only "race" thread that I have ever participated in because it is more about what being here means than any race.

We aren't quite where we want to be. We are basically FI, but want a big toy, so we keep trucking. Right now, we can afford the big toy or we can afford the lifestyle increase that it will cause (insurance, taxes, maintenance), but not both. Meanwhile, DH is considering syphoning off this year's savings to help a friend start a business. Basically, we are all over the place.




Tell us about the "big toy".  Is it a plane, a yacht, an RV, an AI robot, or something else?  I love browsing for things I'll never actually buy but enjoy fantasizing about buying.  I mainly bounce between looking at planes & boats but know I'll never commit to the hassle of owning either.  You obviously have your sights set on something special.

It is the same size yacht we have, but fresh off the line instead of nearly 40 years old. There are a lot of cool things happening in newer yachts, and we are looking at sailing boats that let you sit and look out from inside, have central HVAC and possibly even all electric, although are now leaning towards a brand that would not facilitate that (might get them to drop the price by the amount of the diesel engine, but the electric motor would have to be installed after delivery).

We love living on our boat. Even if we never cruise as much as we hope to, as long as we can find a dock to tie up to, any of the boats we are considering will be lovely homes.




That sounds really cool.  I didn't realize you're living on a yacht.  We both really like the water and boating too, but our personalities aren't compatible enough to live on one full-time.  (The survivor would get lonely!)  The type of vessel you describe sounds like a worthy thing to work towards.  I wonder if the brand you want might be open to developing the systems you want considering the future is green.  Perhaps they just need the right client to approach them about it.  A full-time liveaboard couple seems like the type of people they would want to work with, considering the wealth of practical experience you could bring to the table.  Maybe your boat could act as their green development prototype, and you could work with them as ongoing systems monitoring consultants.  (Ask for a discounted boat in return for your services, they cover & install the electric motor, etc., and you call when it's acting up.  Offer them a 10-year durability monitoring plan.) 


:~)

We just found out that a couple changed their plans and has one delivered to our very harbor since we started our vacation. They have are having some commissioning issues, so we might end up working with them and their dealer to help them out. This would give us an in to prove our value to the company, and it happens to be an electrical issue.

OR, in a dream world, sometimes folks with nice boats end up offloading them to friends for ridiculous deals and we could make the conversion over time...

pecunia

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6780 on: June 22, 2023, 08:55:49 AM »
This is the only "race" thread that I have ever participated in because it is more about what being here means than any race.

We aren't quite where we want to be. We are basically FI, but want a big toy, so we keep trucking. Right now, we can afford the big toy or we can afford the lifestyle increase that it will cause (insurance, taxes, maintenance), but not both. Meanwhile, DH is considering syphoning off this year's savings to help a friend start a business. Basically, we are all over the place.




Tell us about the "big toy".  Is it a plane, a yacht, an RV, an AI robot, or something else?  I love browsing for things I'll never actually buy but enjoy fantasizing about buying.  I mainly bounce between looking at planes & boats but know I'll never commit to the hassle of owning either.  You obviously have your sights set on something special.

It is the same size yacht we have, but fresh off the line instead of nearly 40 years old. There are a lot of cool things happening in newer yachts, and we are looking at sailing boats that let you sit and look out from inside, have central HVAC and possibly even all electric, although are now leaning towards a brand that would not facilitate that (might get them to drop the price by the amount of the diesel engine, but the electric motor would have to be installed after delivery).

We love living on our boat. Even if we never cruise as much as we hope to, as long as we can find a dock to tie up to, any of the boats we are considering will be lovely homes.




That sounds really cool.  I didn't realize you're living on a yacht.  We both really like the water and boating too, but our personalities aren't compatible enough to live on one full-time.  (The survivor would get lonely!)  The type of vessel you describe sounds like a worthy thing to work towards.  I wonder if the brand you want might be open to developing the systems you want considering the future is green.  Perhaps they just need the right client to approach them about it.  A full-time liveaboard couple seems like the type of people they would want to work with, considering the wealth of practical experience you could bring to the table.  Maybe your boat could act as their green development prototype, and you could work with them as ongoing systems monitoring consultants.  (Ask for a discounted boat in return for your services, they cover & install the electric motor, etc., and you call when it's acting up.  Offer them a 10-year durability monitoring plan.) 


:~)

We just found out that a couple changed their plans and has one delivered to our very harbor since we started our vacation. They have are having some commissioning issues, so we might end up working with them and their dealer to help them out. This would give us an in to prove our value to the company, and it happens to be an electrical issue.

OR, in a dream world, sometimes folks with nice boats end up offloading them to friends for ridiculous deals and we could make the conversion over time...

To people like me living in 3 bedroom Ranch homes, living on a boat sounds like the dream world.  Wow!  The closest I ever experienced to that was living in a trailer.

ixtap

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6781 on: June 22, 2023, 09:00:57 AM »
This is the only "race" thread that I have ever participated in because it is more about what being here means than any race.

We aren't quite where we want to be. We are basically FI, but want a big toy, so we keep trucking. Right now, we can afford the big toy or we can afford the lifestyle increase that it will cause (insurance, taxes, maintenance), but not both. Meanwhile, DH is considering syphoning off this year's savings to help a friend start a business. Basically, we are all over the place.




Tell us about the "big toy".  Is it a plane, a yacht, an RV, an AI robot, or something else?  I love browsing for things I'll never actually buy but enjoy fantasizing about buying.  I mainly bounce between looking at planes & boats but know I'll never commit to the hassle of owning either.  You obviously have your sights set on something special.

It is the same size yacht we have, but fresh off the line instead of nearly 40 years old. There are a lot of cool things happening in newer yachts, and we are looking at sailing boats that let you sit and look out from inside, have central HVAC and possibly even all electric, although are now leaning towards a brand that would not facilitate that (might get them to drop the price by the amount of the diesel engine, but the electric motor would have to be installed after delivery).

We love living on our boat. Even if we never cruise as much as we hope to, as long as we can find a dock to tie up to, any of the boats we are considering will be lovely homes.




That sounds really cool.  I didn't realize you're living on a yacht.  We both really like the water and boating too, but our personalities aren't compatible enough to live on one full-time.  (The survivor would get lonely!)  The type of vessel you describe sounds like a worthy thing to work towards.  I wonder if the brand you want might be open to developing the systems you want considering the future is green.  Perhaps they just need the right client to approach them about it.  A full-time liveaboard couple seems like the type of people they would want to work with, considering the wealth of practical experience you could bring to the table.  Maybe your boat could act as their green development prototype, and you could work with them as ongoing systems monitoring consultants.  (Ask for a discounted boat in return for your services, they cover & install the electric motor, etc., and you call when it's acting up.  Offer them a 10-year durability monitoring plan.) 


:~)

We just found out that a couple changed their plans and has one delivered to our very harbor since we started our vacation. They have are having some commissioning issues, so we might end up working with them and their dealer to help them out. This would give us an in to prove our value to the company, and it happens to be an electrical issue.

OR, in a dream world, sometimes folks with nice boats end up offloading them to friends for ridiculous deals and we could make the conversion over time...

To people like me living in 3 bedroom Ranch homes, living on a boat sounds like the dream world.  Wow!  The closest I ever experienced to that was living in a trailer.

Well, a 40' boat is generally only two bedrooms, so it depends how you use your space. Like RVing, living onboard tends to be love it or hate it. I have seen folks buy a boat and sell it a year later because marina life doesn't suit them.

farmecologist

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6782 on: June 22, 2023, 09:05:48 AM »
This is the only "race" thread that I have ever participated in because it is more about what being here means than any race.

We aren't quite where we want to be. We are basically FI, but want a big toy, so we keep trucking. Right now, we can afford the big toy or we can afford the lifestyle increase that it will cause (insurance, taxes, maintenance), but not both. Meanwhile, DH is considering syphoning off this year's savings to help a friend start a business. Basically, we are all over the place.




Tell us about the "big toy".  Is it a plane, a yacht, an RV, an AI robot, or something else?  I love browsing for things I'll never actually buy but enjoy fantasizing about buying.  I mainly bounce between looking at planes & boats but know I'll never commit to the hassle of owning either.  You obviously have your sights set on something special.

It is the same size yacht we have, but fresh off the line instead of nearly 40 years old. There are a lot of cool things happening in newer yachts, and we are looking at sailing boats that let you sit and look out from inside, have central HVAC and possibly even all electric, although are now leaning towards a brand that would not facilitate that (might get them to drop the price by the amount of the diesel engine, but the electric motor would have to be installed after delivery).

We love living on our boat. Even if we never cruise as much as we hope to, as long as we can find a dock to tie up to, any of the boats we are considering will be lovely homes.




That sounds really cool.  I didn't realize you're living on a yacht.  We both really like the water and boating too, but our personalities aren't compatible enough to live on one full-time.  (The survivor would get lonely!)  The type of vessel you describe sounds like a worthy thing to work towards.  I wonder if the brand you want might be open to developing the systems you want considering the future is green.  Perhaps they just need the right client to approach them about it.  A full-time liveaboard couple seems like the type of people they would want to work with, considering the wealth of practical experience you could bring to the table.  Maybe your boat could act as their green development prototype, and you could work with them as ongoing systems monitoring consultants.  (Ask for a discounted boat in return for your services, they cover & install the electric motor, etc., and you call when it's acting up.  Offer them a 10-year durability monitoring plan.) 


:~)

We just found out that a couple changed their plans and has one delivered to our very harbor since we started our vacation. They have are having some commissioning issues, so we might end up working with them and their dealer to help them out. This would give us an in to prove our value to the company, and it happens to be an electrical issue.

OR, in a dream world, sometimes folks with nice boats end up offloading them to friends for ridiculous deals and we could make the conversion over time...

To people like me living in 3 bedroom Ranch homes, living on a boat sounds like the dream world.  Wow!  The closest I ever experienced to that was living in a trailer.

Well, a 40' boat is generally only two bedrooms, so it depends how you use your space. Like RVing, living onboard tends to be love it or hate it. I have seen folks buy a boat and sell it a year later because marina life doesn't suit them.


Hmm...slip fees in a marina can *really* add up fast.  I'm assuming you have found a way to mitigate that?

BTW - Similar to marinas, fees at many RV parks have reached the point that it isn't worth it for many these days...




ixtap

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6783 on: June 22, 2023, 02:48:34 PM »
This is the only "race" thread that I have ever participated in because it is more about what being here means than any race.

We aren't quite where we want to be. We are basically FI, but want a big toy, so we keep trucking. Right now, we can afford the big toy or we can afford the lifestyle increase that it will cause (insurance, taxes, maintenance), but not both. Meanwhile, DH is considering syphoning off this year's savings to help a friend start a business. Basically, we are all over the place.




Tell us about the "big toy".  Is it a plane, a yacht, an RV, an AI robot, or something else?  I love browsing for things I'll never actually buy but enjoy fantasizing about buying.  I mainly bounce between looking at planes & boats but know I'll never commit to the hassle of owning either.  You obviously have your sights set on something special.

It is the same size yacht we have, but fresh off the line instead of nearly 40 years old. There are a lot of cool things happening in newer yachts, and we are looking at sailing boats that let you sit and look out from inside, have central HVAC and possibly even all electric, although are now leaning towards a brand that would not facilitate that (might get them to drop the price by the amount of the diesel engine, but the electric motor would have to be installed after delivery).

We love living on our boat. Even if we never cruise as much as we hope to, as long as we can find a dock to tie up to, any of the boats we are considering will be lovely homes.




That sounds really cool.  I didn't realize you're living on a yacht.  We both really like the water and boating too, but our personalities aren't compatible enough to live on one full-time.  (The survivor would get lonely!)  The type of vessel you describe sounds like a worthy thing to work towards.  I wonder if the brand you want might be open to developing the systems you want considering the future is green.  Perhaps they just need the right client to approach them about it.  A full-time liveaboard couple seems like the type of people they would want to work with, considering the wealth of practical experience you could bring to the table.  Maybe your boat could act as their green development prototype, and you could work with them as ongoing systems monitoring consultants.  (Ask for a discounted boat in return for your services, they cover & install the electric motor, etc., and you call when it's acting up.  Offer them a 10-year durability monitoring plan.) 


:~)

We just found out that a couple changed their plans and has one delivered to our very harbor since we started our vacation. They have are having some commissioning issues, so we might end up working with them and their dealer to help them out. This would give us an in to prove our value to the company, and it happens to be an electrical issue.

OR, in a dream world, sometimes folks with nice boats end up offloading them to friends for ridiculous deals and we could make the conversion over time...

To people like me living in 3 bedroom Ranch homes, living on a boat sounds like the dream world.  Wow!  The closest I ever experienced to that was living in a trailer.

Well, a 40' boat is generally only two bedrooms, so it depends how you use your space. Like RVing, living onboard tends to be love it or hate it. I have seen folks buy a boat and sell it a year later because marina life doesn't suit them.


Hmm...slip fees in a marina can *really* add up fast.  I'm assuming you have found a way to mitigate that?

BTW - Similar to marinas, fees at many RV parks have reached the point that it isn't worth it for many these days...

Still far, far less than rent for waterfront property! Or even inland property.

We also joined a yacht club. Dues + slips fees + galley minimum is still less than commercial slip fees. But we are not in that city at the moment. Turns out, yacht clubs are nothing like country clubs.

wannabe-stache

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6784 on: June 23, 2023, 07:31:43 AM »
holy guacamole @wannabe-stache !!    I can only assume you have now FIRE'd or else you simply love your job and will likely only stop when it stops being fun!   Its difficult to conjure a scenario in which you're not ok, given these numbers!  Great work, btw!!

Thanks.  I am probably responsible for 20% of it, the rest is luck and timing.  Still working but it is a manageable amount of work and we have started to flex a little bit this year.  Upgraded my car, spending more on eating out and other activities, etc.

2sk22

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6785 on: June 26, 2023, 06:29:56 AM »
Just got back from a short vacation to Southern California. We had a very enjoyable time there staying in expensive hipster hotels (paid with CSR points). But the greatest joy about being retired is flying back home on a Sunday night and not having to think about work on Monday morning.

My old boss called me a few days ago asking if I would like to do some part time work. The answer is actually a hard "no" but, to be polite, I told him that I would think about it. Since I worked in AI for much of my career, several people asked me recently if I missed working in the field considering how much excitement there is with language models. In fact, the situation is exactly the opposite. I am so glad not to be working 18 hours a day on some ridiculous AI application intended to put minimum wage workers out of work.

I still read the latest papers to keep up with the field but always feel glad that I don't have to get stuff to work. With conventional software, when you fix a bug, it (mostly) stays fixed. With AI models, you never know what new things are going to break with each new training run. All this AI stuff is great in demos but it's much harder to actually make apps that do useful things.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6786 on: June 26, 2023, 10:16:07 AM »
Continuing the latest trend of OG FIRE bloggers 'falling off the wagon' - https://www.1500days.com/why-ramit/

Carl and Mindy had the Ramit Sethi, "Die with Zero", "Spend Till the End" treatment and have loosened the purse strings...

Interested to hear what this cohort thinks in general about raising spending closer to that 4% level?  For those of us in the upper / beyond ranges, that would require $160k/yr or more!  Personally, I'm at around $100k per year including putting the kids through college and some lumpy spending (e.g. bought our 4th new car to complete a refresh that started in 2015), travel, etc.  $100k/yr already seems outrageous (unless inflation gets me there).  Maybe there are still lumpy purchases after the kids finish college, but I really don't see my inflation adjusted spending going any higher that it is today...

But that's just me, we have a wide variety of COL and NW folks here, so I'm interested to hear what others think!

Bateaux

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6787 on: June 26, 2023, 11:15:10 AM »
Hey guys I've ended my Appalachian Trail hike for now.  I hiked 436 miles up from Tennessee to the southern border of Shenandoah National Park at Waynesboro VA. My wife and friends picked me up and we're now at a Massanutten VA resort.   What a culture shock after 39 days living out of my backpack in the mountains.   I've gone two days resting up and sleeping in a real bed.   I'm ready to hike again.  From the condo I can see the mountains of Shenandoah.  I have to go home to.visit family and attend our grandson's baptism.  Will I go back to the trail or back to work and home living? I lost 25 pounds out there and got in excellent condition.   I've made new friends on the trail and they want me back out there.  Wife certainly wants me happy, but has missed me a bunch. 
Having fun visiting vineyards and drinking wine.  LSU Tigers are fighting to win the college world series.  Headed back to Louisiana Saturday.   Life decisions will have to be made.
It's all wonderful right now.

ixtap

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6788 on: June 26, 2023, 11:52:15 AM »
Not that long ago I consistently thought "What would I even spend that on?!"

I think we have finally figured that out... Between staying at hotels more often for various reasons and generous donations to GoFundMe when we know the folks concerned and otherwise supporting friends and family who struggle without taking them on as ongoing projects. And DH has been known to adopt a person as a project in the past ...

Exflyboy

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6789 on: June 26, 2023, 01:10:36 PM »
Continuing the latest trend of OG FIRE bloggers 'falling off the wagon' - https://www.1500days.com/why-ramit/

Carl and Mindy had the Ramit Sethi, "Die with Zero", "Spend Till the End" treatment and have loosened the purse strings...

Interested to hear what this cohort thinks in general about raising spending closer to that 4% level?  For those of us in the upper / beyond ranges, that would require $160k/yr or more!  Personally, I'm at around $100k per year including putting the kids through college and some lumpy spending (e.g. bought our 4th new car to complete a refresh that started in 2015), travel, etc.  $100k/yr already seems outrageous (unless inflation gets me there).  Maybe there are still lumpy purchases after the kids finish college, but I really don't see my inflation adjusted spending going any higher that it is today...

But that's just me, we have a wide variety of COL and NW folks here, so I'm interested to hear what others think!

Yup its a problem. I too hoard money precisely because I saw how tenuous life could be without it. Growing up in the East End of London some 15 years after WW2 (I still remember some bomb damage), no one had any money and we lived very close to the edge.. Something that scared the crap out of me at 12 years old!

Now later in life (with a ridiculous NW) I still scan the prices on the menu and buy the cheapest airplane tickets. The one year I measured it, our WR was 0.69%...

Since then I have gradually learned to let go a bit (bought a new SUV in 2021).

Just this weekend I took a look our pension and Social Security projections. IF we wait till draw everything until I'm 70 then just that income alone will be $125k.*

Currently we spend around $50 to 60k.

I'm still in the rental business (why?) and that makes us $25k and we get a $1600/month ACA subsidy.. Because like we're "poor"!!!

On the face of it, this is insanity! But its not insane, its been optimised for cash flow today...

Why can't I throw down $10k for business class tickets to Europe vs $1200 for cattle class?... Because its a waste of money thats why!.... Arrrgh!

Wish I had a better answer.

*includes today's after tax dividends of $15k

Dancin'Dog

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6790 on: June 26, 2023, 02:54:59 PM »
Continuing the latest trend of OG FIRE bloggers 'falling off the wagon' - https://www.1500days.com/why-ramit/

Carl and Mindy had the Ramit Sethi, "Die with Zero", "Spend Till the End" treatment and have loosened the purse strings...

Interested to hear what this cohort thinks in general about raising spending closer to that 4% level?  For those of us in the upper / beyond ranges, that would require $160k/yr or more!  Personally, I'm at around $100k per year including putting the kids through college and some lumpy spending (e.g. bought our 4th new car to complete a refresh that started in 2015), travel, etc.  $100k/yr already seems outrageous (unless inflation gets me there).  Maybe there are still lumpy purchases after the kids finish college, but I really don't see my inflation adjusted spending going any higher that it is today...

But that's just me, we have a wide variety of COL and NW folks here, so I'm interested to hear what others think!

Yup its a problem. I too hoard money precisely because I saw how tenuous life could be without it. Growing up in the East End of London some 15 years after WW2 (I still remember some bomb damage), no one had any money and we lived very close to the edge.. Something that scared the crap out of me at 12 years old!

Now later in life (with a ridiculous NW) I still scan the prices on the menu and buy the cheapest airplane tickets. The one year I measured it, our WR was 0.69%...

Since then I have gradually learned to let go a bit (bought a new SUV in 2021).

Just this weekend I took a look our pension and Social Security projections. IF we wait till draw everything until I'm 70 then just that income alone will be $125k.*

Currently we spend around $50 to 60k.

I'm still in the rental business (why?) and that makes us $25k and we get a $1600/month ACA subsidy.. Because like we're "poor"!!!

On the face of it, this is insanity! But its not insane, its been optimised for cash flow today...

Why can't I throw down $10k for business class tickets to Europe vs $1200 for cattle class?... Because its a waste of money thats why!.... Arrrgh!

Wish I had a better answer.

*includes today's after tax dividends of $15k






Have you heard about La Compagnie?  They offer "business class only" flights from NY to a few cities in Europe.  NY to Paris roundtrip for about $1500. 

2sk22

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6791 on: June 26, 2023, 03:43:41 PM »
Continuing the latest trend of OG FIRE bloggers 'falling off the wagon' - https://www.1500days.com/why-ramit/

Carl and Mindy had the Ramit Sethi, "Die with Zero", "Spend Till the End" treatment and have loosened the purse strings...

Interested to hear what this cohort thinks in general about raising spending closer to that 4% level?  For those of us in the upper / beyond ranges, that would require $160k/yr or more!  Personally, I'm at around $100k per year including putting the kids through college and some lumpy spending (e.g. bought our 4th new car to complete a refresh that started in 2015), travel, etc.  $100k/yr already seems outrageous (unless inflation gets me there).  Maybe there are still lumpy purchases after the kids finish college, but I really don't see my inflation adjusted spending going any higher that it is today...

But that's just me, we have a wide variety of COL and NW folks here, so I'm interested to hear what others think!

Yup its a problem. I too hoard money precisely because I saw how tenuous life could be without it. Growing up in the East End of London some 15 years after WW2 (I still remember some bomb damage), no one had any money and we lived very close to the edge.. Something that scared the crap out of me at 12 years old!

Now later in life (with a ridiculous NW) I still scan the prices on the menu and buy the cheapest airplane tickets. The one year I measured it, our WR was 0.69%...

Since then I have gradually learned to let go a bit (bought a new SUV in 2021).

Just this weekend I took a look our pension and Social Security projections. IF we wait till draw everything until I'm 70 then just that income alone will be $125k.*

Currently we spend around $50 to 60k.

I'm still in the rental business (why?) and that makes us $25k and we get a $1600/month ACA subsidy.. Because like we're "poor"!!!

On the face of it, this is insanity! But its not insane, its been optimised for cash flow today...

Why can't I throw down $10k for business class tickets to Europe vs $1200 for cattle class?... Because its a waste of money thats why!.... Arrrgh!

Wish I had a better answer.

*includes today's after tax dividends of $15k

As per the 4% rule, we could spend over $250k per year when we actually start drawing down our savings (not including pensions and SS). In practice, our regular expenses (ie other than lumpy expenses  like cars, home repairs, vacations etc) has not exceeded $80k per year. My hobbies tend to be pretty cheap - for example, I recently spent an enjoyable couple of weeks writing code for a $30 embedded single-board computer.

In his podcast, Morgan Housel says that most of us don't really know what makes us happy so his suggestion is to try a diverse set of activities to figure out what works for you. Inspired by this, I booked us a $600 per night hipster hotel in Southern California (free kombucha on tap in the lobby!) on a recent short vacation. To our surprise, we did really enjoy the stay in this hotel. We have always stayed in Hampton Inn level hotels so far. Hmm - maybe we ought to do this more often 😀

Exflyboy

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6792 on: June 26, 2023, 04:25:36 PM »
@2sk22 I think its fair to say if you don't start spending (a lot) soon, you are going to be leaving behind a metric shit-ton of money!

At least my "problem" is smaller than yours..:)

Fomerly known as something

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6793 on: June 26, 2023, 06:45:24 PM »
For me with spending more, well deciding to move to the SF Bay Area in 2021 sure helped.  And Iím happy to spend more money to not fly cattle class anymore.  (If I had a travel buddy to sleep on I might think different).  Those are my two biggest current ďsplurges.Ē

In the work rules.  Itís a bad week.  Iím likely to have to travel over the 4th of July holiday.  Itís not a terrible assignment, more along the lines of ďbut I donít want toĒ. Unfortunately there appears to be no one else.  I immediately asked for a day of leave around Labor day so I wonít be working 3 holidays in a row.

LeftA

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6794 on: June 30, 2023, 10:48:36 AM »
Hello,
Iím joining you at net worth of just over $2M. Yeah, Iím definitely the poorest one in this group! Nonetheless, I look forward to being here.

couponvan

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6795 on: June 30, 2023, 10:54:18 AM »
Welcome LeftA! Glad to have you join us!

Exflyboy

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6796 on: June 30, 2023, 12:25:49 PM »
Hello,
Iím joining you at net worth of just over $2M. Yeah, Iím definitely the poorest one in this group! Nonetheless, I look forward to being here.

Still working?

CANStache

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6797 on: June 30, 2023, 01:11:28 PM »
Hello,
Iím joining you at net worth of just over $2M. Yeah, Iím definitely the poorest one in this group! Nonetheless, I look forward to being here.

I was you!  Like being the worst player on the court/field/ice, it's inspiring to see those "ahead" of you and to work hard to move things along.

Welcome to the thread, I'm sure your progress will inspire someone else someday.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6798 on: June 30, 2023, 01:22:00 PM »
Hello,
Iím joining you at net worth of just over $2M. Yeah, Iím definitely the poorest one in this group! Nonetheless, I look forward to being here.

Oh great, now I'm going to have to go wash off my hands having replied to a mere two-millionaire!  Oh Jeeves, bring the Purell forthwith...  LOL, congrats LeftA

Dicey

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6799 on: June 30, 2023, 01:25:04 PM »
Hello,
Iím joining you at net worth of just over $2M. Yeah, Iím definitely the poorest one in this group! Nonetheless, I look forward to being here.
Just caught up on the previous thread today and saw you'd "graduated". Congratulations! Welcome to this little corner of the forum.