Author Topic: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!  (Read 1246800 times)

SwordGuy

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6500 on: January 11, 2023, 03:21:10 PM »

...states-where-1-million-dollars-retirement-savings-runs-out-fastest.html...

I think the author of this piece is a clickbait whore with his whiny head up his ass.

And I destroyed the full link in the quote above so I don't link to his trash.

rmorris50

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6501 on: January 11, 2023, 04:24:55 PM »

...states-where-1-million-dollars-retirement-savings-runs-out-fastest.html...

I think the author of this piece is a clickbait whore with his whiny head up his ass.

And I destroyed the full link in the quote above so I don't link to his trash.
Thing is I didnít directly link to this article. This was posted on a more reputable site advertised by Linked In, and when you click it it takes you the link I shared. So they are finding ways to guise the click bait.

I was more entertained than put off in this case. But yes the second half of the article turns into basic run of the mill ďadviseĒ.


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2sk22

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6502 on: January 12, 2023, 02:44:35 AM »

...states-where-1-million-dollars-retirement-savings-runs-out-fastest.html...

I think the author of this piece is a clickbait whore with his whiny head up his ass.

And I destroyed the full link in the quote above so I don't link to his trash.

Out of curiosity I went directly to his own website and wow are you right. Every article he has written seem to be burning with resentment and anger.

LightTripper

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6503 on: January 12, 2023, 05:23:34 AM »
Sorry about your eyes @Taran Wanderer but glad that your retinas seem to be largely staying put for now.

FWIW as one other data point the only person I know with detached retinas had a very sudden detachment on a tube train in London about 15 years ago - he suddenly couldn't see in one eye.  Luckily he went straight to Moorfields and they reattached and he kept his vision and it's still good 15 years later (well, as good as it was before - he's always had strong prescription glasses).  So reattachments can work and hold even when the detachment was quite sudden/complete if you're quick enough.  Sounds like hopefully you are in a much more gradual category, if at all.

Fomerly known as something

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6504 on: January 12, 2023, 10:16:43 AM »
On a similar note.  As Iím just waiting for my pension eligibility day, Iím getting sick of people at work who canít afford to retire.

So this morning Iíve been entertaining myself with running numbers if I stayed until mandatory retirement (working an additional 10 years).  With just saving at a current maximum eligibility (TSP, TSP match, HSA, IRA), Iíd have a liquid net worth of $5.3 million which at 4% would cash flow to me more than I currently make.

ETA:  looking at the CNBC article, I left the 10h cheapest state for the 3rd most expensive.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2023, 10:18:30 AM by Fomerly known as something »

Money Badger

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6505 on: January 12, 2023, 07:43:35 PM »
@Formerly,   Elvis's daughter bit it at 54... This alone is just as good advice as "Sam's" ;-)

FIRE today.  Move to LCOL.  Be free and just be.   Screw the $5M.

Fomerly known as something

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6506 on: January 12, 2023, 10:21:54 PM »
@Formerly,   Elvis's daughter bit it at 54... This alone is just as good advice as "Sam's" ;-)

FIRE today.  Move to LCOL.  Be free and just be.   Screw the $5M.

Oh Iím not staying the extra 10 years that would get me to $5million, Iím staying less than 3 and am gone at 47.  I just ran the numbers for ďfunĒ.  Being able to keep Federal Employees Health Benefits for life is keeping me there until I get my minimum pension eligible time in.

Simpli-Fi

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6507 on: January 17, 2023, 09:39:55 AM »
@Formerly,   Elvis's daughter bit it at 54... This alone is just as good advice as "Sam's" ;-)

FIRE today.  Move to LCOL.  Be free and just be.   Screw the $5M.

Iím staying less than 3 and am gone at 47.
this has been my goal since corp. year 1 and funny enough I'm about 3 years away from this reality too.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6508 on: January 17, 2023, 11:47:03 AM »
On a similar note.  As Iím just waiting for my pension eligibility day, Iím getting sick of people at work who canít afford to retire.
...

Came across this gem this morning - https://www.marketwatch.com/picks/it-feels-like-way-too-much-to-lose-we-had-550k-invested-and-told-our-adviser-we-wanted-a-conservative-approach-since-then-weve-lost-88k-i-know-the-market-is-bad-but-should-we-fire-him-01673635039?siteid=yhoof2
Quote
Question: Two years ago my husband took an early retirement when offered by his company.  At that time we had a 401(k) with about $550,000 that we gave to a big financial services firm rep to handle. Since then weíve lost $88,000 due to poor market conditions and decisions. We expressed our need for a conservative approach. A large portion is tied up in bonds and that amount feels like way too much to lose!

Whatís worse, the agent keeps telling us that our $4,750 per month draw is too much. Do we change agents within the company?  Jump ship and transfer everything to another company?  Do we have to live on less than we want to just to make up for the loss?

Fomerly known as something

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6509 on: January 17, 2023, 09:39:22 PM »
On a similar note.  As Iím just waiting for my pension eligibility day, Iím getting sick of people at work who canít afford to retire.
...

Came across this gem this morning - https://www.marketwatch.com/picks/it-feels-like-way-too-much-to-lose-we-had-550k-invested-and-told-our-adviser-we-wanted-a-conservative-approach-since-then-weve-lost-88k-i-know-the-market-is-bad-but-should-we-fire-him-01673635039?siteid=yhoof2
Quote
Question: Two years ago my husband took an early retirement when offered by his company.  At that time we had a 401(k) with about $550,000 that we gave to a big financial services firm rep to handle. Since then weíve lost $88,000 due to poor market conditions and decisions. We expressed our need for a conservative approach. A large portion is tied up in bonds and that amount feels like way too much to lose!

Whatís worse, the agent keeps telling us that our $4,750 per month draw is too much. Do we change agents within the company?  Jump ship and transfer everything to another company?  Do we have to live on less than we want to just to make up for the loss?

So a 10% withdrawal rate and they think the investments are the problem.

Taran Wanderer

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6510 on: January 17, 2023, 10:58:33 PM »
On a similar note.  As Iím just waiting for my pension eligibility day, Iím getting sick of people at work who canít afford to retire.
...

Came across this gem this morning - https://www.marketwatch.com/picks/it-feels-like-way-too-much-to-lose-we-had-550k-invested-and-told-our-adviser-we-wanted-a-conservative-approach-since-then-weve-lost-88k-i-know-the-market-is-bad-but-should-we-fire-him-01673635039?siteid=yhoof2
Quote
Question: Two years ago my husband took an early retirement when offered by his company.  At that time we had a 401(k) with about $550,000 that we gave to a big financial services firm rep to handle. Since then weíve lost $88,000 due to poor market conditions and decisions. We expressed our need for a conservative approach. A large portion is tied up in bonds and that amount feels like way too much to lose!

Whatís worse, the agent keeps telling us that our $4,750 per month draw is too much. Do we change agents within the company?  Jump ship and transfer everything to another company?  Do we have to live on less than we want to just to make up for the loss?

So a 10% withdrawal rate and they think the investments are the problem.

Reduction in account value:  $550,000 - $88,000 = $462,000

Spent:  $550,000 - ($4,750 * 12) = $493,000

Loss due to market:  $493,000 - $462,000 = $31,000

% loss due to market:  $31,000 / $493,000 = (6.29%)

When interest rates rise, bond values fall.  That doesn't feel like that much of a loss given how much interest rates have risen...


farmecologist

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6511 on: January 24, 2023, 09:14:07 AM »
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/12/17/states-where-1-million-dollars-retirement-savings-runs-out-fastest.html?ac_cid=DM748936&ac_bid=1837332362

No one in this thread should be working based on this article!


With my motivation at work lately, I probably won't be working much longer!  Haha....Definitely in "why am I doing this still" mode...

« Last Edit: January 24, 2023, 09:16:01 AM by farmecologist »

Bateaux

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6512 on: January 24, 2023, 11:46:58 PM »
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/12/17/states-where-1-million-dollars-retirement-savings-runs-out-fastest.html?ac_cid=DM748936&ac_bid=1837332362

No one in this thread should be working based on this article!


With my motivation at work lately, I probably won't be working much longer!  Haha....Definitely in "why am I doing this still" mode...

Winding down in my last year.  Also trying to get some crap fixed for the new guys that are going to be replacing me and probably another coworker.  Knowing the end is close makes it so easy to go in.

Dicey

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6513 on: January 25, 2023, 07:11:43 AM »
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/12/17/states-where-1-million-dollars-retirement-savings-runs-out-fastest.html?ac_cid=DM748936&ac_bid=1837332362

No one in this thread should be working based on this article!


With my motivation at work lately, I probably won't be working much longer!  Haha....Definitely in "why am I doing this still" mode...

Winding down in my last year.  Also trying to get some crap fixed for the new guys that are going to be replacing me and probably another coworker.  Knowing the end is close makes it so easy to go in.
It's been such a long time coming. Can't wait for you to pull the trigger, @Bateaux!

pecunia

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6514 on: January 27, 2023, 09:43:14 AM »
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/12/17/states-where-1-million-dollars-retirement-savings-runs-out-fastest.html?ac_cid=DM748936&ac_bid=1837332362

No one in this thread should be working based on this article!


With my motivation at work lately, I probably won't be working much longer!  Haha....Definitely in "why am I doing this still" mode...

Winding down in my last year.  Also trying to get some crap fixed for the new guys that are going to be replacing me and probably another coworker.  Knowing the end is close makes it so easy to go in.

I felt that too.  Once I realized I no longer had to work, it was like a load lifted.  Stuff doesn't bother you so much when you can walk away.  You've planned well.  I think you may be one of those guys that does people more good after you retire than when you were working.  Your entries here show you are that kind of guy that helps neighbors and such.

farmecologist

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6515 on: January 30, 2023, 12:17:47 PM »
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/12/17/states-where-1-million-dollars-retirement-savings-runs-out-fastest.html?ac_cid=DM748936&ac_bid=1837332362

No one in this thread should be working based on this article!


With my motivation at work lately, I probably won't be working much longer!  Haha....Definitely in "why am I doing this still" mode...

Winding down in my last year.  Also trying to get some crap fixed for the new guys that are going to be replacing me and probably another coworker.  Knowing the end is close makes it so easy to go in.

I felt that too.  Once I realized I no longer had to work, it was like a load lifted.  Stuff doesn't bother you so much when you can walk away.  You've planned well.  I think you may be one of those guys that does people more good after you retire than when you were working.  Your entries here show you are that kind of guy that helps neighbors and such.

Yep...it definitely helps with the stress levels at work when you have some 'FU' money...haha.  However, it doesn't help with the work motivation levels.  I'd like to have a couple more years at the company...but it is getting tougher and tougher.  The pandemic also had a lot to do with it...I realized that I'm *much happier* not going into work.  The company touts what a great "culture" they have but...no...they have been treating employees poorly for decades.

 

 


Taran Wanderer

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6516 on: January 30, 2023, 03:18:36 PM »
I was running into this. Sometimes the bad treatment is bad management. Other times itís just plain difficult l, stressful, high-pressure work, and even of the leadership is pretty good, the underlying work is just plain hard. I was in that sort of situation, and I finally just checked out. Itís been a really nice change.

rmorris50

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6517 on: February 01, 2023, 01:38:15 PM »
NW is back up over $3m for the first time in a year. Thanks FED.

Meanwhile I continue to stress over my job like I have no money saved.


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Simpli-Fi

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6518 on: February 01, 2023, 08:44:13 PM »
Meanwhile I continue to stress over my job like I have no money saved.

You are not aloneÖIím in the same boat.

However, Iíve stopped biting my lip and work and funny enough, people seem to like my brutal honesty.  Itís a taste of FU moneyÖIíve taken on the attitude ďfire me if you donít like itĒ; seems to have dropped my stress level a little.

I was hoping for the sale to continue a little longerÖbut seeing the market climb makes me want to ditch the high stress job.

Taran Wanderer

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6519 on: February 06, 2023, 02:01:13 PM »
Had my follow up eye appointment today. More poking and prodding. Things are stable. Iím not going blindÖ yet.

As the markets have been going through their gyrations, itís been interesting to watch the NW. Itís climbing through $3.6M again. If this year is ďtypicalĒ - whatever that is anymore - between appreciation and savings it will rise above $4M this year. Does that mean I need to leave this thread?

I also did a first run at 2022 taxes. Looks like I need to write a big check. I adjusted my federal withholding, but not state, and that is coming back to bite me. But thatís really driven by the new job partnership. Turns out if you make money, you have to pay taxes on it. There could be worse problems.

It all has me thinking philosophically about work. For so long, I worked for money, and it was a lot of effort to save and invest and wait and watch it grow. Now, money seems to flow in so easily, and I donít need it so much, so I need to figure out what the intrinsic motivation is for what Iím doing, whether itís work or play. No answers yet, and Iím not sure I even know the questions. Anyone have any deep thoughts about how youíve approached this ídilemmaí?

ATtiny85

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6520 on: February 06, 2023, 06:04:57 PM »
Had my follow up eye appointment today. More poking and prodding. Things are stable. Iím not going blindÖ yet.

Anyone have any deep thoughts about how youíve approached this ídilemmaí?

Good about the eyes.

Deep thoughts? Not from me, but I am in a similar situation, trying to to figure out exactly what to do now that we are here. Here being past the need to really save, but still doing it.

There are still things to do at work, but even if they never get done, the big wheel will roll along. And if I get them done, not much different. I get to play with some good tools. I am remote so no chance contact with fools.

pecunia

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6521 on: February 07, 2023, 02:49:00 PM »
Had my follow up eye appointment today. More poking and prodding. Things are stable. Iím not going blindÖ yet.

As the markets have been going through their gyrations, itís been interesting to watch the NW. Itís climbing through $3.6M again. If this year is ďtypicalĒ - whatever that is anymore - between appreciation and savings it will rise above $4M this year. Does that mean I need to leave this thread?

I also did a first run at 2022 taxes. Looks like I need to write a big check. I adjusted my federal withholding, but not state, and that is coming back to bite me. But thatís really driven by the new job partnership. Turns out if you make money, you have to pay taxes on it. There could be worse problems.

It all has me thinking philosophically about work. For so long, I worked for money, and it was a lot of effort to save and invest and wait and watch it grow. Now, money seems to flow in so easily, and I donít need it so much, so I need to figure out what the intrinsic motivation is for what Iím doing, whether itís work or play. No answers yet, and Iím not sure I even know the questions. Anyone have any deep thoughts about how youíve approached this ídilemmaí?

I'm not working any more.  Once in a while the thought crosses my mind that I should just be doing "good" for people.  So far I have yet to follow through.  Bateaux seems to set a good example in this regard while still working.  It would be kinda nice when I trundle off this mortal coil, people would say I did some good.  Was that deep enough?

Fru-Gal

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6522 on: February 07, 2023, 03:06:42 PM »
Quote
Now, money seems to flow in so easily, and I donít need it so much, so I need to figure out what the intrinsic motivation is for what Iím doing, whether itís work or play.

Isnít this the question at the heart of all post-FIRE existential crises? Itís a rumination about the nature of success (fame, fortune, skill, etc). Anyone who reaches a peak of human striving, who ďwins the gameĒ will come to face these questions. So, you get to choose: Do I keep playing this game that I won, or find ways to make it interesting, or do I find a new game? Or do I intentionally try to lose so that I donít have to make that choice and go back to the scary/difficult stages of any early endeavor?

Because money is so important in our society, I am glad I wasnít born super rich, as that seems often to engender this ďwon the gameĒ ennui from the start. However, I WAS born super rich: in health, family, nation of origin, etc. Itís only societyís focus on money that prevents me from seeing this. How many people (myself included) do their best to ďlose the gameĒ (find something wrong/an excuse) because theyíre overwhelmed by their non-monetary wealth?

Iíve been nursing a guaranteed unpopular theory latelyÖ what if life has always been easy? I mean throughout history? Iím not talking about the worst parts (wars, pandemics, famines, natural disasters), though even these benefit some people while others die. But everything else, farming, culture, storytelling, civilization or nomadismÖ what if it has always been easy? Sure, I donít farm my food, but if I donít get many hours of hard exercise every week I am miserable and my life will be shorter. Rumi or Marcus Aurelius or Confucius or SocratesÖ they are all talking about the same injustices and mental conflicts that torment humans. These things never change.

Itís like FIRE. Itís actually easy (I can only say this now after 30+ years of striving), but society does its best to obscure that fact. Making a 6-figure salary, itís not hard to save half a million dollars in less than a decade. But everywhere the message says ďLife is hard. You canít win. Better make yourself feel good by buying a $50k car, a $200k education, $100k in food and toys per yearÖĒ
« Last Edit: February 07, 2023, 03:39:40 PM by Fru-Gal »

pecunia

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6523 on: February 07, 2023, 04:38:23 PM »
Quote
Now, money seems to flow in so easily, and I donít need it so much, so I need to figure out what the intrinsic motivation is for what Iím doing, whether itís work or play.

Isnít this the question at the heart of all post-FIRE existential crises? Itís a rumination about the nature of success (fame, fortune, skill, etc). Anyone who reaches a peak of human striving, who ďwins the gameĒ will come to face these questions. So, you get to choose: Do I keep playing this game that I won, or find ways to make it interesting, or do I find a new game? Or do I intentionally try to lose so that I donít have to make that choice and go back to the scary/difficult stages of any early endeavor?

Because money is so important in our society, I am glad I wasnít born super rich, as that seems often to engender this ďwon the gameĒ ennui from the start. However, I WAS born super rich: in health, family, nation of origin, etc. Itís only societyís focus on money that prevents me from seeing this. How many people (myself included) do their best to ďlose the gameĒ (find something wrong/an excuse) because theyíre overwhelmed by their non-monetary wealth?

Iíve been nursing a guaranteed unpopular theory latelyÖ what if life has always been easy? I mean throughout history? Iím not talking about the worst parts (wars, pandemics, famines, natural disasters), though even these benefit some people while others die. But everything else, farming, culture, storytelling, civilization or nomadismÖ what if it has always been easy? Sure, I donít farm my food, but if I donít get many hours of hard exercise every week I am miserable and my life will be shorter. Rumi or Marcus Aurelius or Confucius or SocratesÖ they are all talking about the same injustices and mental conflicts that torment humans. These things never change.

Itís like FIRE. Itís actually easy (I can only say this now after 30+ years of striving), but society does its best to obscure that fact. Making a 6-figure salary, itís not hard to save half a million dollars in less than a decade. But everywhere the message says ďLife is hard. You canít win. Better make yourself feel good by buying a $50k car, a $200k education, $100k in food and toys per yearÖĒ

Excellent - I saw this film a while back about natives who hunt and gather in the Brazilian jungle.  The film pointed out that they do not put hours and hours gathering their food every day.  It usually only took a few hours.  I was working a lot of overtime about the time I saw that film and the thought, "WTF," crossed my mind.

Fomerly known as something

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6524 on: February 07, 2023, 08:05:40 PM »
Well and there have been numerous articles about how peasants in the Middle Ages had many more days off than we have today.

  https://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/users/rauch/worktime/hours_workweek.html

farmecologist

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6525 on: February 08, 2023, 04:20:04 PM »
Well and there have been numerous articles about how peasants in the Middle Ages had many more days off than we have today.

  https://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/users/rauch/worktime/hours_workweek.html

Articles like these are not helping my motivation levels at work...haha. 

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6526 on: February 09, 2023, 05:26:29 AM »
Not to get too philosophical, but the nature of work seems to have been the ultimate conclusion of all this FIRE stuff.  Probably because I read FIRE'd blogs and don't meet many of the bon vivant / lazy ER types, but most FIRE folks (the truly Early retired) find new 'hustles' (aka work) which better match their interests and satisfy any income / self-actualization / purpose needs.  That's one reason I got so miffed when people so staunchly call their hustle lifestyle 'Retirement', a word that has been used for generations to represent when you are done with work (mainly due to infirmity), start collecting your social security and get on medicare, etc...  I personally find it misleading to call this lifestyle retirement and it's no wonder normal people are immediately confused if a 30 year old says they retired, instead of better words like 'financially independent', 'stay at home parent', non-working spouse, blogger, etc.  I'm always sure there's a better word than retired to describe themselves.  Even my buddy that lives on a boat calls himself a sailor rather than introducing himself as a retiree, although he could use either.

Dancin'Dog

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6527 on: February 09, 2023, 07:52:59 AM »
Something like "private fund manager" seems a better fit than "retired" for many of us. 

sisto

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6528 on: February 09, 2023, 10:58:48 AM »
Quote
Now, money seems to flow in so easily, and I donít need it so much, so I need to figure out what the intrinsic motivation is for what Iím doing, whether itís work or play.

Isnít this the question at the heart of all post-FIRE existential crises? Itís a rumination about the nature of success (fame, fortune, skill, etc). Anyone who reaches a peak of human striving, who ďwins the gameĒ will come to face these questions. So, you get to choose: Do I keep playing this game that I won, or find ways to make it interesting, or do I find a new game? Or do I intentionally try to lose so that I donít have to make that choice and go back to the scary/difficult stages of any early endeavor?

Because money is so important in our society, I am glad I wasnít born super rich, as that seems often to engender this ďwon the gameĒ ennui from the start. However, I WAS born super rich: in health, family, nation of origin, etc. Itís only societyís focus on money that prevents me from seeing this. How many people (myself included) do their best to ďlose the gameĒ (find something wrong/an excuse) because theyíre overwhelmed by their non-monetary wealth?

Iíve been nursing a guaranteed unpopular theory latelyÖ what if life has always been easy? I mean throughout history? Iím not talking about the worst parts (wars, pandemics, famines, natural disasters), though even these benefit some people while others die. But everything else, farming, culture, storytelling, civilization or nomadismÖ what if it has always been easy? Sure, I donít farm my food, but if I donít get many hours of hard exercise every week I am miserable and my life will be shorter. Rumi or Marcus Aurelius or Confucius or SocratesÖ they are all talking about the same injustices and mental conflicts that torment humans. These things never change.

Itís like FIRE. Itís actually easy (I can only say this now after 30+ years of striving), but society does its best to obscure that fact. Making a 6-figure salary, itís not hard to save half a million dollars in less than a decade. But everywhere the message says ďLife is hard. You canít win. Better make yourself feel good by buying a $50k car, a $200k education, $100k in food and toys per yearÖĒ
Exactly! And the people have bought into the lie, you can't convince them otherwise, even when shown empirical evidence. I've always thought differently than most people and always been frugal. I grew up poor and learned how to save. I had struggles at times and bought into the hype of buy buy buy here and there, but thankfully my drive to retire early was stronger. I just go on and try to live my life as an example to others and hope I can effect change. I know over the years, I've made some small differences in the lives of friends and family, but I wish I could do more. Some people just have to be the victim. SMH

farmecologist

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6529 on: February 09, 2023, 11:54:06 AM »
Not to get too philosophical, but the nature of work seems to have been the ultimate conclusion of all this FIRE stuff.  Probably because I read FIRE'd blogs and don't meet many of the bon vivant / lazy ER types, but most FIRE folks (the truly Early retired) find new 'hustles' (aka work) which better match their interests and satisfy any income / self-actualization / purpose needs.  That's one reason I got so miffed when people so staunchly call their hustle lifestyle 'Retirement', a word that has been used for generations to represent when you are done with work (mainly due to infirmity), start collecting your social security and get on medicare, etc...  I personally find it misleading to call this lifestyle retirement and it's no wonder normal people are immediately confused if a 30 year old says they retired, instead of better words like 'financially independent', 'stay at home parent', non-working spouse, blogger, etc.  I'm always sure there's a better word than retired to describe themselves.  Even my buddy that lives on a boat calls himself a sailor rather than introducing himself as a retiree, although he could use either.


Totally agree.  I think many here have jobs they do not really enjoy ( including myself to a certain extent ), or did enjoy at one point but no longer do.  And yes, I also do have a side hustle I enjoy.

Maybe FIPF ( Financial Independence for Personal Fulfillment ) is a better acronym?   



« Last Edit: February 09, 2023, 11:56:54 AM by farmecologist »

farmecologist

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6530 on: February 09, 2023, 11:56:07 AM »
Quote
Now, money seems to flow in so easily, and I donít need it so much, so I need to figure out what the intrinsic motivation is for what Iím doing, whether itís work or play.

Isnít this the question at the heart of all post-FIRE existential crises? Itís a rumination about the nature of success (fame, fortune, skill, etc). Anyone who reaches a peak of human striving, who ďwins the gameĒ will come to face these questions. So, you get to choose: Do I keep playing this game that I won, or find ways to make it interesting, or do I find a new game? Or do I intentionally try to lose so that I donít have to make that choice and go back to the scary/difficult stages of any early endeavor?

Because money is so important in our society, I am glad I wasnít born super rich, as that seems often to engender this ďwon the gameĒ ennui from the start. However, I WAS born super rich: in health, family, nation of origin, etc. Itís only societyís focus on money that prevents me from seeing this. How many people (myself included) do their best to ďlose the gameĒ (find something wrong/an excuse) because theyíre overwhelmed by their non-monetary wealth?

Iíve been nursing a guaranteed unpopular theory latelyÖ what if life has always been easy? I mean throughout history? Iím not talking about the worst parts (wars, pandemics, famines, natural disasters), though even these benefit some people while others die. But everything else, farming, culture, storytelling, civilization or nomadismÖ what if it has always been easy? Sure, I donít farm my food, but if I donít get many hours of hard exercise every week I am miserable and my life will be shorter. Rumi or Marcus Aurelius or Confucius or SocratesÖ they are all talking about the same injustices and mental conflicts that torment humans. These things never change.

Itís like FIRE. Itís actually easy (I can only say this now after 30+ years of striving), but society does its best to obscure that fact. Making a 6-figure salary, itís not hard to save half a million dollars in less than a decade. But everywhere the message says ďLife is hard. You canít win. Better make yourself feel good by buying a $50k car, a $200k education, $100k in food and toys per yearÖĒ
Exactly! And the people have bought into the lie, you can't convince them otherwise, even when shown empirical evidence. I've always thought differently than most people and always been frugal. I grew up poor and learned how to save. I had struggles at times and bought into the hype of buy buy buy here and there, but thankfully my drive to retire early was stronger. I just go on and try to live my life as an example to others and hope I can effect change. I know over the years, I've made some small differences in the lives of friends and family, but I wish I could do more. Some people just have to be the victim. SMH

It can be a vicious circle for many folks too.  People get depressed when they buy into the hype, and many turn to "retail therapy", which sends them further down the hole, etc...





EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6531 on: February 09, 2023, 12:17:43 PM »
Not to get too philosophical, but the nature of work seems to have been the ultimate conclusion of all this FIRE stuff.  Probably because I read FIRE'd blogs and don't meet many of the bon vivant / lazy ER types, but most FIRE folks (the truly Early retired) find new 'hustles' (aka work) which better match their interests and satisfy any income / self-actualization / purpose needs.  That's one reason I got so miffed when people so staunchly call their hustle lifestyle 'Retirement', a word that has been used for generations to represent when you are done with work (mainly due to infirmity), start collecting your social security and get on medicare, etc...  I personally find it misleading to call this lifestyle retirement and it's no wonder normal people are immediately confused if a 30 year old says they retired, instead of better words like 'financially independent', 'stay at home parent', non-working spouse, blogger, etc.  I'm always sure there's a better word than retired to describe themselves.  Even my buddy that lives on a boat calls himself a sailor rather than introducing himself as a retiree, although he could use either.


Totally agree.  I think many here have jobs they do not really enjoy ( including myself to a certain extent ), or did enjoy at one point but no longer do.  And yes, I also do have a side hustle I enjoy.

Maybe FIPF ( Financial Independence for Personal Fulfillment ) is a better acronym?

I guess thatís the irony of it, FIRE is nothing new despite all the blogging hype around itÖ. What we have called FIRE, people used to call whatever it actually was that they were doing.  Iím sure most people would call Pete a house flipper, blogger, small business owner (MMM HQ), landlord, stay at home parent, or whatever best describes him now, if he were IRL talking to a strangerÖ

My wife was FIRE at 30 according to our Ďrulesí, but apparently didnít realize how valuable this designation was and instead went by stay at home parent for 10 years while the kids were young.  She wouldíve punched me if I called her retired.

sisto

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6532 on: February 09, 2023, 12:47:53 PM »
Not to get too philosophical, but the nature of work seems to have been the ultimate conclusion of all this FIRE stuff.  Probably because I read FIRE'd blogs and don't meet many of the bon vivant / lazy ER types, but most FIRE folks (the truly Early retired) find new 'hustles' (aka work) which better match their interests and satisfy any income / self-actualization / purpose needs.  That's one reason I got so miffed when people so staunchly call their hustle lifestyle 'Retirement', a word that has been used for generations to represent when you are done with work (mainly due to infirmity), start collecting your social security and get on medicare, etc...  I personally find it misleading to call this lifestyle retirement and it's no wonder normal people are immediately confused if a 30 year old says they retired, instead of better words like 'financially independent', 'stay at home parent', non-working spouse, blogger, etc.  I'm always sure there's a better word than retired to describe themselves.  Even my buddy that lives on a boat calls himself a sailor rather than introducing himself as a retiree, although he could use either.


Totally agree.  I think many here have jobs they do not really enjoy ( including myself to a certain extent ), or did enjoy at one point but no longer do.  And yes, I also do have a side hustle I enjoy.

Maybe FIPF ( Financial Independence for Personal Fulfillment ) is a better acronym?

I guess thatís the irony of it, FIRE is nothing new despite all the blogging hype around itÖ. What we have called FIRE, people used to call whatever it actually was that they were doing.  Iím sure most people would call Pete a house flipper, blogger, small business owner (MMM HQ), landlord, stay at home parent, or whatever best describes him now, if he were IRL talking to a strangerÖ

My wife was FIRE at 30 according to our Ďrulesí, but apparently didnít realize how valuable this designation was and instead went by stay at home parent for 10 years while the kids were young.  She wouldíve punched me if I called her retired.
My wife also stayed home with our kids. I know she had the tougher job, even though I put in long hours over the years, but it always amazed me how people want to define you by your job. After the kids were out of the house people suddenly thought she should have a job. It was ridiculous to me, at that point she'd been out of the workforce for 20+ years. I told her to just start telling people she was retired. I mean if it didn't bother me, why should it bother them?! Our culture is so weird. Other countries don't define people by their job/s. I remember a few cases of working women and stay at home dads too and that was even worse. People have such preconceived notions about how things should be. I hope some day we can get away from that mentality and thinking. Do what works best for you and your family!

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6533 on: February 09, 2023, 01:17:17 PM »
-snip-

My wife also stayed home with our kids. I know she had the tougher job, even though I put in long hours over the years, but it always amazed me how people want to define you by your job. After the kids were out of the house people suddenly thought she should have a job. It was ridiculous to me, at that point she'd been out of the workforce for 20+ years. I told her to just start telling people she was retired. I mean if it didn't bother me, why should it bother them?! Our culture is so weird. Other countries don't define people by their job/s. I remember a few cases of working women and stay at home dads too and that was even worse. People have such preconceived notions about how things should be. I hope some day we can get away from that mentality and thinking. Do what works best for you and your family!

Totally agree, and it's a good conversation to have around why people's identity as an employee is so important in the US.  My eldest sister ran in to this first and now my wife, now that the kids are independent...  It's a recurring theme about what to do when you are too young to be seen as properly 'retired' (and/or wanting to do more) but not really wanting a job...  Telling them to call themselves FIRE'd and spend all day on this forum doesn't seem to be the answer :)

ATtiny85

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6534 on: February 09, 2023, 02:58:50 PM »
-snip-

My wife also stayed home with our kids. I know she had the tougher job, even though I put in long hours over the years, but it always amazed me how people want to define you by your job. After the kids were out of the house people suddenly thought she should have a job. It was ridiculous to me, at that point she'd been out of the workforce for 20+ years. I told her to just start telling people she was retired. I mean if it didn't bother me, why should it bother them?! Our culture is so weird. Other countries don't define people by their job/s. I remember a few cases of working women and stay at home dads too and that was even worse. People have such preconceived notions about how things should be. I hope some day we can get away from that mentality and thinking. Do what works best for you and your family!

Totally agree, and it's a good conversation to have around why people's identity as an employee is so important in the US.  My eldest sister ran in to this first and now my wife, now that the kids are independent...  It's a recurring theme about what to do when you are too young to be seen as properly 'retired' (and/or wanting to do more) but not really wanting a job...  Telling them to call themselves FIRE'd and spend all day on this forum doesn't seem to be the answer :)

I think back sometimes to when I was newer in the engineering area and try to reflect on how I thought about myself in terms of the job. This tends to come out when I talk to one of the newer "hard chargers". I think somewhere along the line, maybe after getting into some supervisory positions and getting more inside info on how screwy large corporations tend to be, that I started transitioning away from sipping the poisoned punch.

I spent several years working in engineering in Germany and would say it felt sort of the same there that a lot of my coworkers were all about the job. But of course Germany is somewhat similar to the US in a lot areas.

It is an intriguing subject.

lhamo

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6535 on: February 10, 2023, 08:42:51 AM »
I saw an Oscar Wilde play the other day (A Woman of No Importance) and one of the main characters is a young American heiress who is visiting the country house of some English landed gentry.  She has several long speeches in which "she" (aka Oscar Wilde) comments on the differences between American and English society/culture.  She is in love with a young man who has just agreed to become the private secretary of a rather rapacious middle aged Lord.  The gentry ladies are commenting on how unfortunate it is that he does not come from wealth and has to be so concerned about how to make a living/rise up in society rather than just having a position and a fortune handed to him.  The American lady then goes on a long spiel about how Americans value work/striving and expect it even from the privileged.

The play debuted in 1893.  The more things change the more they stay the same, I guess.

Taran Wanderer

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6536 on: February 15, 2023, 10:54:04 PM »
DWís car got a flat today. It wasnít catastrophic, but it was fast enough that she ended destroying the tire, but not the rim. We were far enough from home that it was too far to drive home on the spare (if you follow the rules to the letter). We tried to get it fixed at the tire chain where we bought the tires, but they didnít have the same winter tire in stock, and they wouldnít put on an oddball tire or even an oddball pair. Kinda frustrating, but I get it.  Because we have other options, we didnít get backed into an unexpected purchase of four tires.

Fortunately I was there in my own car (we came from different directions) so I was able to get the spare on (and it had air because I rotate our tires with our kids, and we always fill the spare!) and haul everyone home in my car. We left the car at a relativeís place, and weíll go back in a couple of days with the 4 summer tires and have those put on so we can get home. This weekend we can sort out what to do with the bad tire without any pressure to solve it right now. And since we have a very unmastachian third car, weíll be able to do our separate things tomorrow without issues. Itís times like these when Iím very grateful to be in this club. 
« Last Edit: February 15, 2023, 10:56:46 PM by Taran Wanderer »

2sk22

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6537 on: February 23, 2023, 11:00:05 AM »
Something like "private fund manager" seems a better fit than "retired" for many of us.

Heh - that's me for sure :-)

For a while, I was lurking around a lot on Bogleheads trying to find the right way to juggle the tradeoffs between Roth conversions, RMDs and IRMAA. After spend a lot of time last year on planning tools and spreadsheets, I came to the conclusion that we had way too much money to be able to avoid paying taxes. So this year, I am just trying to spend less time on this and more on fun hobbies.

Dicey

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6538 on: February 23, 2023, 11:16:42 AM »
For a while, I was lurking around a lot on Bogleheads trying to find the right way to juggle the tradeoffs between Roth conversions, RMDs and IRMAA. After spend a lot of time last year on planning tools and spreadsheets, I came to the conclusion that we had way too much money to be able to avoid paying taxes. So this year, I am just trying to spend less time on this and more on fun hobbies.
Lol, I appreciate this affirmation. We have more than we will ever need. We are uninclined to jump through hoops to avoid paying taxes on money we didn't pay taxes on in the first place. Blasphemy!

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6539 on: February 23, 2023, 12:57:16 PM »
For a while, I was lurking around a lot on Bogleheads trying to find the right way to juggle the tradeoffs between Roth conversions, RMDs and IRMAA. After spend a lot of time last year on planning tools and spreadsheets, I came to the conclusion that we had way too much money to be able to avoid paying taxes. So this year, I am just trying to spend less time on this and more on fun hobbies.
Lol, I appreciate this affirmation. We have more than we will ever need. We are uninclined to jump through hoops to avoid paying taxes on money we didn't pay taxes on in the first place. Blasphemy!

Making life even more complicated, sometimes it makes sense to pay more taxes early so that funds spend more time in the Roth IRA!  The Finance Buff has a health attitude toward not trying too hard to optimize everything given all the unknowns...  There is a point of diminishing returns and missing out on what it is really all about anyway.

markbike528CBX

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6540 on: February 23, 2023, 02:21:00 PM »
For a while, I was lurking around a lot on Bogleheads trying to find the right way to juggle the tradeoffs between Roth conversions, RMDs and IRMAA. After spend a lot of time last year on planning tools and spreadsheets, I came to the conclusion that we had way too much money to be able to avoid paying taxes. So this year, I am just trying to spend less time on this and more on fun hobbies.
Lol, I appreciate this affirmation. We have more than we will ever need. We are uninclined to jump through hoops to avoid paying taxes on money we didn't pay taxes on in the first place. Blasphemy!

Making life even more complicated, sometimes it makes sense to pay more taxes early so that funds spend more time in the Roth IRA!  The Finance Buff has a health attitude toward not trying too hard to optimize everything given all the unknowns...  There is a point of diminishing returns and missing out on what it is really all about anyway.
Yep.
An MPP is that I've gotten so used to paying <$100 Federal Taxes (qualified dividends and capital gains are my chief income) that going back to paying taxes like I did when I was single (17% effective) will be difficult.
The urge to optimize might get out of hand. 
I'll have to remember these posts on this thread and just relax.   
I had to explain to DW that the old saw of "Taxes and Death" is a real thing, and even Death can get taxed.


MPP = https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/mustachian-people-problems-(just-for-fun)/

Fomerly known as something

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6541 on: February 23, 2023, 08:58:42 PM »
For a while, I was lurking around a lot on Bogleheads trying to find the right way to juggle the tradeoffs between Roth conversions, RMDs and IRMAA. After spend a lot of time last year on planning tools and spreadsheets, I came to the conclusion that we had way too much money to be able to avoid paying taxes. So this year, I am just trying to spend less time on this and more on fun hobbies.
Lol, I appreciate this affirmation. We have more than we will ever need. We are uninclined to jump through hoops to avoid paying taxes on money we didn't pay taxes on in the first place. Blasphemy!

Making life even more complicated, sometimes it makes sense to pay more taxes early so that funds spend more time in the Roth IRA!  The Finance Buff has a health attitude toward not trying too hard to optimize everything given all the unknowns...  There is a point of diminishing returns and missing out on what it is really all about anyway.
Yep.
An MPP is that I've gotten so used to paying <$100 Federal Taxes (qualified dividends and capital gains are my chief income) that going back to paying taxes like I did when I was single (17% effective) will be difficult.
The urge to optimize might get out of hand. 
I'll have to remember these posts on this thread and just relax.   
I had to explain to DW that the old saw of "Taxes and Death" is a real thing, and even Death can get taxed.


MPP = https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/mustachian-people-problems-(just-for-fun)/

I hate having to remember to write a check by April 15th.  And I had a few years where I went from getting a large refund to owing close to 5 figures.  So I now on the Federal side tend to error on making slow baby steps.  I was super proud to get my return back in Mi to the famous less than $100 but have been no where close with Federal.

This year both the Feds and CA are likely large.  I got a bonus in May for moving to a hard to staff area for the Federal Government.  They paid it like regular salary in my biweekly paycheck.  That check was taxed between federal state and social security at combined 53% tax rate.

Exflyboy

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6542 on: February 24, 2023, 02:41:33 PM »
How many of you have not even looked at their portfolios since the market took a dump last year?

I think I was waiting for the S&P to hit 3200 before turning some bonds into stocks.. But that never happened and I sort of lost interest.

I then took a job, then retired again and currently have about $65k in our checking account even after maxing my 401k, HSA and spending more on my new lathe and milling machine than I did on my first house!.. OK that statement scares me a little.

So no I have not even looked in out portfoilo which was around 70/30 stocks to bonds from memory.

Josiecat22222

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6543 on: February 24, 2023, 03:12:22 PM »
I wish I could keep myself from looking.  I look at the market data daily, but only calculate NW on the first of the month as a deliberate effort.  I've been FIREd for two and a half years, so I keep reminding myself that we still have more than we did when I first left paid employment, but no one likes to see the numbers go down!

Exflyboy

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6544 on: February 24, 2023, 03:26:13 PM »
I wish I could keep myself from looking.  I look at the market data daily, but only calculate NW on the first of the month as a deliberate effort.  I've been FIREd for two and a half years, so I keep reminding myself that we still have more than we did when I first left paid employment, but no one likes to see the numbers go down!

Yes very true. I guess after 9 years since I left (fired actually.. No not FI'red) my last grown up job and nothing remotely close to any kind of financial tragedy as happened I guess I can assume we are fairly resilient.

Note I did break my wrist in 2019.. HD HC plan.. Ouch!... But wait, the healthcare part of our index funds made quite a bit more than the $28k my insurance company was billed that year.. never even noticed it.

oldladystache

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6545 on: February 24, 2023, 05:55:43 PM »
I look at mine almost every day. Just to satisfy my curiosity. I don't plan to make any changes. When my next quarterly influx of money comes in I'll spend maybe an hour getting it all invested or stashed for immediate needs.

Fomerly known as something

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6546 on: February 24, 2023, 07:24:07 PM »
I too look at my vanguard account a decent amount.  I donít change anything.  Monthly I do a manual buy at a minimum.  On my 401k, as it was going back up, I was checking to see if the account ticked over to 7 figures again, but with the last weeks downward trend I havenít bothered.

Bateaux

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6547 on: February 24, 2023, 09:54:08 PM »
About half of our retirement income will come from my pension which I'll be eligible for this summer.  That makes the dollar amount of the other accounts no so important now.  I've got less than 80 days till I potentially never work again.  Live is good.

Reader

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6548 on: February 24, 2023, 11:03:27 PM »
About half of our retirement income will come from my pension which I'll be eligible for this summer.  That makes the dollar amount of the other accounts no so important now.  I've got less than 80 days till I potentially never work again.  Live is good.
congrats!!

Exflyboy

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6549 on: February 24, 2023, 11:08:18 PM »
Yes very nice...:)