Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!

[rmorris50]

So really, to be pedantic, instead of saying one excludes their reals estate from their NW, they should say they assume no cash flow from their real estate in their retirement cash flow analysis.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Fomerly known as something]

I’ve got to brag on my sub 26 year old new co worker (still on her parents health care because I mentioned looking at the HDHP plans during open season).  She is already maxing out TSP while now living in the Bay Area on a salary with a base of less than 80k.  I also had the other new person up their TSP from 5 to 10% to start getting closer to the max.

By now, she's either without insurance or hopefully on the company plan.  When she turned 26, she could stay on her parents' plan only until the end of the month where her birthday was.  This is a qualifying event for her to join the company insurance plan.  The bad thing is that the full deductible will likely mean she pays the premiums and gets nothing back for this year.

My son turned 26 in July, so I know exactly what happens.

When she turns 26 she’ll be on Federal Employee Health benefits.  I haven’t asked when that is, it might be a year or two.

[Midwest_Handlebar]

Can I join the club? Just went under contract on a triplex that appraised for $95k higher than what we offered. It took longer than expected this year, but we're @ $2.04M.

[rmorris50]

Can I join the club? Just went under contract on a triplex that appraised for $95k higher than what we offered. It took longer than expected this year, but we're @ $2.04M.

Better to ask for forgiveness than permission!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[EscapeVelocity2020]

Can I join the club? Just went under contract on a triplex that appraised for $95k higher than what we offered. It took longer than expected this year, but we're @ $2.04M.

We will have to do a full audit of your accounts, sounds like you are counting real estate in your net worth which is a lightning rod around these parts (LOL)

[2Birds1Stone]

Can I join the club? Just went under contract on a triplex that appraised for $95k higher than what we offered. It took longer than expected this year, but we're @ $2.04M.

We will have to do a full audit of your accounts, sounds like you are counting real estate in your net worth which is a lightning rod around these parts (LOL)

Don't worry @Midwest_Handlebar, I'm only in here because I count PV of our SS benefits as an asset on the balance sheet ;)

(https://www.kitces.com/blog/valuing-social-security-benefits-as-an-asset-on-the-household-balance-sheet/)

[Midwest_Handlebar]

Well now you tell me! I also have a $1B valuation on the crypto token that I created earlier this year. Technically we're at $1,002,040,000.

[EscapeVelocity2020]

Well now you tell me! I also have a $1B valuation on the crypto token that I created earlier this year. Technically we're at $1,002,040,000.

Well obviously that is fine...  until it isn't LOL  By the way, can I give you some of my useless fiat for it?

[Midwest_Handlebar]

Well now you tell me! I also have a $1B valuation on the crypto token that I created earlier this year. Technically we're at $1,002,040,000.

Well obviously that is fine...  until it isn't LOL  By the way, can I give you some of my useless fiat for it?

Absolutely! I was planning on borrowing against it to fund my gambling addiction.

[sisto]

Can I join the club? Just went under contract on a triplex that appraised for $95k higher than what we offered. It took longer than expected this year, but we're @ $2.04M.

I'm still here even after dipping in and out a few times. Also I technically only have around $1.9M right now unless I include my $500K + paid off house. I did also just give my kind $110K yesterday for a home purchase and the older one got that a year and a half ago. Hopefully I won't get kicked out of the group. LOL

WELCOME! :)

[Turtle]

Can I join the club? Just went under contract on a triplex that appraised for $95k higher than what we offered. It took longer than expected this year, but we're @ $2.04M.

We will have to do a full audit of your accounts, sounds like you are counting real estate in your net worth which is a lightning rod around these parts (LOL)

Don't worry @Midwest_Handlebar, I'm only in here because I count PV of our SS benefits as an asset on the balance sheet ;)

(https://www.kitces.com/blog/valuing-social-security-benefits-as-an-asset-on-the-household-balance-sheet/)

I hadn't seen that article.  Interesting!  (& I fall in here with that included as well - regardless of only LNW hard numbers or adding TNW approximation of additional physical assets.) 

[arcturus]

Can I join the club? Just went under contract on a triplex that appraised for $95k higher than what we offered. It took longer than expected this year, but we're @ $2.04M.

We will have to do a full audit of your accounts, sounds like you are counting real estate in your net worth which is a lightning rod around these parts (LOL)

Don't worry @Midwest_Handlebar, I'm only in here because I count PV of our SS benefits as an asset on the balance sheet ;)

(https://www.kitces.com/blog/valuing-social-security-benefits-as-an-asset-on-the-household-balance-sheet/)

Love it!!  Funny!  :-)

[Fomerly known as something]

OMG, OMG.  I didn’t know this was even a proposal.

Section 329 "Modification of Eligible Age for Exemption from Early Withdrawal Penalty", of HR 2617, Consolidated Appropriations Act of 2023, eliminates 10% early withdrawal penalty for LEO's that retire after 25 years of age but haven't reached the year they turn 50 yet.

I had a plan, but now I can access my retirement funds when I retire at 47 with no penalty. 

ETA:  well the house could lose it somehow before tomorrow morning but most likely not.

[2KidFIRE]

OMG, OMG.  I didn’t know this was even a proposal.

Section 329 "Modification of Eligible Age for Exemption from Early Withdrawal Penalty", of HR 2617, Consolidated Appropriations Act of 2023, eliminates 10% early withdrawal penalty for LEO's that retire after 25 years of age but haven't reached the year they turn 50 yet.

I had a plan, but now I can access my retirement funds when I retire at 47 with no penalty. 

ETA:  well the house could lose it somehow before tomorrow morning but most likely not.

This seems almost too good to be true.  What is an "LEO"?  Also, it talks about not yet reaching the age of 50 but I though that you had to be 59.5 to avoid the penalty?

[Fomerly known as something]

OMG, OMG.  I didn’t know this was even a proposal.

Section 329 "Modification of Eligible Age for Exemption from Early Withdrawal Penalty", of HR 2617, Consolidated Appropriations Act of 2023, eliminates 10% early withdrawal penalty for LEO's that retire after 25 years of age but haven't reached the year they turn 50 yet.

I had a plan, but now I can access my retirement funds when I retire at 47 with no penalty. 

ETA:  well the house could lose it somehow before tomorrow morning but most likely not.

This seems almost too good to be true.  What is an "LEO"?  Also, it talks about not yet reaching the age of 50 but I though that you had to be 59.5 to avoid the penalty?

That is the change.  LEO is Law enforcement officer.  There is an exception already in the law that allows for withdrawal at age 50 similar to the rule of 55.  The new provision lowers that age to basically for a federal worker in special category retirement provisions to when did person is eligible to retire.

[Dicey]

First I was bummed because we're already past the age of early withdrawal penalties.  Now I'm bummed because I assumed whatever a "LEO" was, it benefitted a larger chunk of mustachians.

[arcturus]

First I was bummed because we're already past the age of early withdrawal penalties.  Now I'm bummed because I assumed whatever a "LEO" was, it benefitted a larger chunk of mustachians.

Hey, I was thinking it was people born in late July - late August!

[Car Jack]

I always find this debate over whether to include real estate in one’s “calcs” odd. It should be in your NW, it’s an asset you have to manage. Whether it produces cash flow in a retirement cash flow analysis depends if the real estate is going to be sold, you do a reverse mortgage, or it’s a rental. NW is NW, and cash flow is cash flow.

Queue the sound of much cheering and clapping!

My ledger my rules. BUT, it is at least important to specify what your personal GAAP is when trying to have a discussion. Ditto for how DCA has (at least) two different meanings. Same with savings rate, and so on. To each their own, but when questions are asked, it is quite important to make it clear what’s where.

Without clarity, we may as well be politicians.

Sure, but real estate should be more cut and dry on a personal level. Kinda weird to cut it out of your NW ledger. But totally understand it not producing cash flow in your house hold cash flow statement and projection . My point is most people skip the cash flow analysis part and just look at their NW and ask “can I retire”? Really need to do a cash flow analysis to see if one is retirement ready, not look at NW. NW does provide the cash flow input into the cash flow analysis.

NW should be straight forward. Cash flow analysis has a billion different assumptions that are different for each household. Yeah, it good to say what you are assuming in that analysis.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Maybe look at post #1 of this thread.  Investable assets are pretty easy to see.  They aren't net worth.  I know lots of people have an investments spread sheet that they keep up and since the numbers are all there, adding a little section to come up with net worth is pretty easy.  Mine has my house, my cars, my guitars and my tools.  What does Net Worth mean?  I don't actually know, nor understand why it's of any value.  How do you put social security or a pension into "investable assets"?  Well, until you're getting payments from these, you don't.  You could certainly use it to figure out your "times" number.  As in "retirement spending" times 25 that's often talked about, related to the Trinity Study.  What I do for that number is take my list of Retirement Spending and subtract social security for me and for my wife.  But for now, it's only a theoretical number because I don't get a pension or social security.  But at age 70, I will and can figure out what the number will be then.  I'm rambling now.  I'm sure plenty of people in this thread have already gotten past that magic 25 number.  Without counting social security, I'm (today) just over 50.  I'll actually retire (I plan to and notified my manager) next May. 

[secondcor521]

How do you put social security or a pension into "investable assets"?  Well, until you're getting payments from these, you don't.  You could certainly use it to figure out your "times" number.  As in "retirement spending" times 25 that's often talked about, related to the Trinity Study.  What I do for that number is take my list of Retirement Spending and subtract social security for me and for my wife.  But for now, it's only a theoretical number because I don't get a pension or social security.  But at age 70, I will and can figure out what the number will be then.  I'm rambling now.  I'm sure plenty of people in this thread have already gotten past that magic 25 number.  Without counting social security, I'm (today) just over 50.  I'll actually retire (I plan to and notified my manager) next May.

It'd be nice if there was a web calculator that let you put in your investments, spending, future Social Security and pensions, and then ran those through the historical gauntlet and spit out a success rate.

https://firecalc.com

Or one that provides the information visually, including the chance of being alive.

https://engaging-data.com/will-money-last-retire-early/

[Fomerly known as something]

First I was bummed because we're already past the age of early withdrawal penalties.  Now I'm bummed because I assumed whatever a "LEO" was, it benefitted a larger chunk of mustachians.

Well it’s not “just” law enforcement but also air traffic controllers and firefighters.  There actually is a similar law for state and local first responders. I wouldn’t be surprised if in the next few years military also had the same ability. 

[Dicey]

First I was bummed because we're already past the age of early withdrawal penalties.  Now I'm bummed because I assumed whatever a "LEO" was, it benefitted a larger chunk of mustachians.

Well it’s not “just” law enforcement but also air traffic controllers and firefighters.  There actually is a similar law for state and local first responders. I wouldn’t be surprised if in the next few years military also had the same ability.

Except I didn't say "just". Perhaps you meant to quote someone else?

[Fomerly known as something]

First I was bummed because we're already past the age of early withdrawal penalties.  Now I'm bummed because I assumed whatever a "LEO" was, it benefitted a larger chunk of mustachians.

Well it’s not “just” law enforcement but also air traffic controllers and firefighters.  There actually is a similar law for state and local first responders. I wouldn’t be surprised if in the next few years military also had the same ability.

Except I didn't say "just". Perhaps you meant to quote someone else?

Sorry Dicey, I shouldn’t have put it in quotes.

[jeroly]

I went to a play on Saturday.
It was the first time I've been to the theater in three years - I used to go about 20 times a year - thanks, pandemic.
It was bad (the actual play), but it was so good (being back in a theater).

I was able to do the Mustachian thing and I got a 'limited availability' ticket for $35.

[Bateaux]

Hey guys.  I haven't checked in for a while.  Christmas is over and we're at the Florida house for a week.  Just doing a little maintenance and headed to Tampa for a day at Busch Gardens.  It's nice and sunny here.  I may do a couple of bicycle rides as well.  Earlier in the month I did a 4 day mini bicycle tour in Mississippi.  I put in about 200 miles on the Natchez Trace.  I've had some knee pain since then and that's kind of worrisome.  I have about 140 days till I.start my hike of the Appalachian Trail in May.  I plan to hike until the last week of June.  I've booked a week at a Massanutten Virginia condo, just outside Shenandoah National Park.  My wife will come find me somewhere in Virginia.  I'll need a bath, clean clothes and some good food by then.  The indoor water park nearby should do a good job of washing away the hiker filth.  July 1 we'll head back home together and most likely I'll be putting in my retirement paperwork.  By August I hope to fly to Maine and start hiking the AT South.  Our first grandchild is due in March and I'm sure that will dominate our spring activities.  Hope all is well with you all.

[arcturus]

Congrats @Bateaux , on the impending addition to the family!   Baby Bateaux?

[Bateaux]

Congrats @Bateaux , on the impending addition to the family!   Baby Bateaux?

Baby Bateaux no doubt.  His daddy already has a surface drive mud boat for duck hunting.

[SwordGuy]

Did our end-of-the-year financlal status this evening.


Stocks, bonds, cash are down ~$230,000 for the year.
4 rental houses went up      ~$121,000
Home went up                 ~$ 16,000     
Farm land went up            ~$579,000, a combination of land improvement and more accurate valuation.
 
 For a net worth improvement of  ~$486,000 for the year.

This was an expensive year.   We gave a Ukrainian refugee artist a place to live and supplies to work with and one of our two farms produced no income this year.  Next year will be the same, after that, we'll be making money again on our newly leveled (and thus improved) farmland.

Expenses of setting up our guest to work should be way down next year as they'll have all the tools they need.

Life is good.

Having fun making art and writing stories.

[soccerluvof4]

The challenge of FIRE with kids is something I don't think is talked about enough on the forum. Many have this "just say no" attitude. DH and I are completely unwilling to not give education and experiences to our kids so that we can not work. I'm not saying that approach is wrong, it's just one we cannot take.
.
Our crazy expenses-
Sports (including private swing coach for golf and club soccer (no travel though)
elementary and pending HS tuition (HS is $15k elementary is $4k)
car insurance for future driver (have you all seen what they charge to add boys to your car insurance?? It's nuts. Or so I hear. We've got a few years still)
He'll need a car- will give him my 12 YO CRV to start. There is no bussing to HS in our area.
And finally family trips. We can blow $8k on a family vacation without thinking about it.

Health insurance if we quit would be a huge blow to our budget. I think we could do it, but it would pinch other areas.

I don't regret any of it. NONE. DH is happy to continue to work to pay for it. And I can stay home and be an Uber for the kids and friends.

Once they go to college they can tap their 529s which are not included in our NW. And they can work to pay living expenses. Or they can live at home. Or they can go to free college at University DH works at. So it's four more years and then one kid should get cheaper and then four more years for the other.

I just feel like there is always the sentiment on the forum that you shouldn't let kids keep you from FIRE and I really don't know how you don't. It's expensive. But short lived really.
just my $.02.

Your view/experience is pretty consistent with ours.  It's really just math, if you spend more you need more.   We didn't feel it was fair to give up our high paying jobs and tell our three kids your on your own for college so we set aside enough thatbthey each could go to most, all except the most expensive, state schools with out of state tuition.  If they end up going in state or get scholarships/aid then win for us.   Like you we don't count I in our NW.   

And you're not kidding about travel....family of five it adds up real quick just starting with 5 airfares, large enough rental to handle 5 plus luggage, and a place to stay that is big enough (thank goodness for AirBNB)....all that is a small fortune and before you do anything fun when your there.  Sure, we have done some car travel and camping trips and crammed into a hotel room for a few nights but we want to do more than that and want to travel a bit more further with the kids.   

I recently went back to work partly bc I was a bit bored and partly to pad the stash for more travel costs (probably the one are I under budgeted) and maybe a little buffer for inflation/turbulent times and unknown college costs (even if we already stashed a ton away).  But really I probably don't need to be working for more money as we have buffers such as $$$$ kids activities thatvwill be going away in the next few years and bigger picture all the kid related costs $$$$$ that will go away when they leave the nest in general.   

But yeah, it was import ant to us and I don't regret it.   Maybe my perspective would be different if I was a lower earner and really had to choose us vs them....fortunately I didn't have to.

This might be me too come February/March (if I get my act in gear doing CPE to renew my CPA license in active status).  We have the assets at middle of this race, but the expenses of "and beyond" for at least the next 4-5 years.  Three years off and a waver between bored and crabby.  No one else can take the vacations I want to take because they are working full time.  However, the "and beyond" part of the expenses lies solidly on my husband's side of the equation.  Their college expenses are budgeted and saved for, but fancier travel is not in there.  I want to budget for at least 15 years of expensive travel, and likely expensive travel to include my children and their significant others during their "poorer" years.  Yes, I don't have to, but I might like to.  If I'm working, I'm not bored at home - just complaining about work! LOL.

You wrote exactly what I have been thinking!!  Totally in same position

[arcturus]

2022 was a rough year for me -- spending this year was way too high and on the earlier thread, I can attest to the difficulty I would have with a FIRE with children dependents scenario.  There are enough variables in you and your significant other's situation (health, expenses, home repairs, maintenance, etc.), but when you throw kids into the mix, the number of variables explode.   Will they go to college?  Will they stay at the same college or will they transfer?  Will they enjoy their major or need to change?  The list goes on an on.  And I will speak from personal experience that I thought I was sufficiently (not excessively) funded in the 529 to handle 3 kids through college.  And in 2022 alone, I probably spent $50,000 out of pocket (I'd prefer not to know the exact number, so am not checking) for one who ended up in a field where you need a graduate degree (yes, another variable) and it was either this or let them graduate with over $100K in student loans, which, I struggle to do.

So my 2022 recap: terrible investment performance, too much spending.   Leaves me with YE liquid / invested net worth of $2.02M and if I include home equity I'm estimating more like $2.51M.   Liquid NW down about 13% from last year. 

And back to the other topic, I would be careful about assuming you are overfunded in the 529.....many things can happen....hell, we have a situation where based on our child getting closed out of one class, they will need to take an extra semester!   That can be $25-35K easily!   And who knows, it sounds like in the future you may be able to roll excess 529 funds into a Roth, so I'd fund it up!!  Doesn't really impact me anymore, since my remaining 529 balance is not going to be enough.

[EscapeVelocity2020]

Thanks for the updates folks.  It was a welcome gift from Congress that 529's are becoming more flexible and also that RMD's will be pushed out until I'm 75.  I got really lucky with the 529 that investment returns were amazing during the funding, then I switched to preservation in 2021 since DS started last fall.  Better yet, he has opted for a much more affordable option than what we had planned on (Texas State Technical College), but still not sure we are home free.  DD will be applying in 2 years and DS might change his mind.  Surprisingly, many of his cohorts have taken this year off entirely, choosing to stay at home and work while they figure life out.  So yeah, adding children to the FIRE planning mix can make the outcome swing wildly.  We were on the lucky side where our 529 is either fully or possibly over-funded, but just as easily could have been $100k short.  And it's still hard to know if we are doing the right thing by DS.  We pushed for him to go the traditional route, but it's silly to force them in to something expensive that they don't want.  For our daughter, it'll likely be the opposite, she'll want to spend top dollar and we'll have to give her a reality check about what makes sense...  We have friends that are paying full freight private elite college money for degrees like journalism, environmental science, etc., so to each their own, but we are not going to write a blank check, even if there are funds in the 529.

[2sk22]

Looking at our liquid assets (tax deferred and taxable), our net worth decreased from $6.4M to 5.8M. But for the most part I did not spend much time thinking about money, except once a month when I update my spreadsheet. We still have more than when I retired in 2020 and I felt that that was enough.

My mom unexpectedly passed away early in 2022 from a heart attack which came as a real shock for us as she seemed to be in fine health. Thankfully she did not linger like my dad who died a couple of years ago from the effects of Alzheimers'. It took a few months of work to sort out the assets. I will be receiving a fairly large amount in early 2023 which is my share of my parents estate - I had not counted on this money in my planning.

My wife is still happy at work and will probably continue at least until the end of 2023 so we won't be dipping into our savings for a bit. We already have more than enough in tax deferred accounts so I reduced her 401K contributions and instead increased the amount of our automated monthly taxable investments. Next year will be our 30th anniversary of index fund investing!

Older daughter is self-sufficient and gets a fabulous stipend as a grad student (way more than I ever did in grad school). Younger daughter is doing well in college and as @arcturus says, college always costs more than you expect. My daughter actually saved some money by moving to a relatively expensive off-campus apartment. Cooking for herself turned out to be much cheaper than the college meal plan - she is frugal and a good cook. Her college is sufficiently far away that she has to fly there and air fares have gone up a lot. She was thrilled to get half a dozen internship offers for next summer - looks like we are barely going to see her in 2023!

I spent about $3k on my hobbies this year and got a huge amount of enjoyment out of it. Didn't get to travel much as I had to spend a lot of time dealing with my parent's estate but hope to travel a bit more in 2023. We did manage to get one fun hiking vacation in the northeast.

Enjoying retirement as much as anyone can hope to :-)

[arcturus]

Thanks for the updates folks.  It was a welcome gift from Congress that 529's are becoming more flexible and also that RMD's will be pushed out until I'm 75.  I got really lucky with the 529 that investment returns were amazing during the funding, then I switched to preservation in 2021 since DS started last fall.  Better yet, he has opted for a much more affordable option than what we had planned on (Texas State Technical College), but still not sure we are home free.  DD will be applying in 2 years and DS might change his mind.  Surprisingly, many of his cohorts have taken this year off entirely, choosing to stay at home and work while they figure life out.  So yeah, adding children to the FIRE planning mix can make the outcome swing wildly.  We were on the lucky side where our 529 is either fully or possibly over-funded, but just as easily could have been $100k short.  And it's still hard to know if we are doing the right thing by DS.  We pushed for him to go the traditional route, but it's silly to force them in to something expensive that they don't want.  For our daughter, it'll likely be the opposite, she'll want to spend top dollar and we'll have to give her a reality check about what makes sense...  We have friends that are paying full freight private elite college money for degrees like journalism, environmental science, etc., so to each their own, but we are not going to write a blank check, even if there are funds in the 529.

I think technical schools are potentially the best ROI option for many.   I look at some occupations that basically require a master's degree and yet may pay only $60-75K upon graduation.  You can easily drop $250-300K in tuition & related expenses landing a job in some of these professions.  That education is 4-5x starting salary.   I would like to see how that compares to a technical school degree.   And you might think  ...  yes, but over the course of a career, the former will far out-earn the latter.  But I am not sure that is the case, some of these professions that require the advanced degrees do not necessarily have salaries that increase dramatically as you gain more experience. 

[Dicey]

Thanks for the updates folks.  It was a welcome gift from Congress that 529's are becoming more flexible and also that RMD's will be pushed out until I'm 75.  I got really lucky with the 529 that investment returns were amazing during the funding, then I switched to preservation in 2021 since DS started last fall.  Better yet, he has opted for a much more affordable option than what we had planned on (Texas State Technical College), but still not sure we are home free.  DD will be applying in 2 years and DS might change his mind.  Surprisingly, many of his cohorts have taken this year off entirely, choosing to stay at home and work while they figure life out.  So yeah, adding children to the FIRE planning mix can make the outcome swing wildly.  We were on the lucky side where our 529 is either fully or possibly over-funded, but just as easily could have been $100k short.  And it's still hard to know if we are doing the right thing by DS.  We pushed for him to go the traditional route, but it's silly to force them in to something expensive that they don't want.  For our daughter, it'll likely be the opposite, she'll want to spend top dollar and we'll have to give her a reality check about what makes sense...  We have friends that are paying full freight private elite college money for degrees like journalism, environmental science, etc., so to each their own, but we are not going to write a blank check, even if there are funds in the 529.

I think technical schools are potentially the best ROI option for many.   I look at some occupations that basically require a master's degree and yet may pay only $60-75K upon graduation.  You can easily drop $250-300K in tuition & related expenses landing a job in some of these professions.  That education is 4-5x starting salary.   I would like to see how that compares to a technical school degree.   And you might think  ...  yes, but over the course of a career, the former will far out-earn the latter.  But I am not sure that is the case, some of these professions that require the advanced degrees do not necessarily have salaries that increase dramatically as you gain more experience.

I'm happy to talk money with my nephews. The oldest it barely 30. One went to trade school (at a local Junior College) to become a General Contractor. The other apprenticed himself to someone with a Pool Maintenance and Repair Service*, in a city ten hours from home, for a couple of years vs. going to college. Eventually, he moved home and started his own business. We chatted at Christmas. They each own their own bought-and-fixed-up-themselves homes and they earn more than I ever did in my career. Way more. They're also good savers.

*There's good money in pool repairs and inspections. The people who do this vs. just weekly cleaning and chemicals tend to earn a lot more money.

[arcturus]

@Dicey , you make another great point -- is that many times the trade/technical professions lend themselves better (IMO) to going into business for yourself vs more formal educations.  Not to mention that not having thousands and thousands of $ of college debt hanging over your head where you have to make those payments!   

I went the other way with my kids and all 3 went through (or are in the process of going through) formal college programs, I'm just saying that, if given the opportunity for a *do over* I would have a conversation with each about technical school + $50,000 set aside as seed money for them to get started in their own profession of choice (when I deemed they were ready for such a responsibility).

[pecunia]

@Dicey , you make another great point -- is that many times the trade/technical professions lend themselves better (IMO) to going into business for yourself vs more formal educations.  Not to mention that not having thousands and thousands of $ of college debt hanging over your head where you have to make those payments!   

I went the other way with my kids and all 3 went through (or are in the process of going through) formal college programs, I'm just saying that, if given the opportunity for a *do over* I would have a conversation with each about technical school + $50,000 set aside as seed money for them to get started in their own profession of choice (when I deemed they were ready for such a responsibility).

My mom came from a small town.  On several occasions she pointed out the that she went to high school with the richest man in the town.  The man never finished high school.  He owned the lumber yard in the town.

This Capitalism thing we got going s a mixed bag.  It gives the rich many more opportunities than most of us and sometimes keeps us down, but it also allows hard working honest business people to succeed.

[Taran Wanderer]

I went to the eye doctor for my annual check-up today. Over the past ten years or so this has involved assessing whether I need bifocals to deciding whether I need stronger bifocals.  There's also a weird pigment patch in my eye that we've been monitoring, but it's staying pretty boring (meaning no changes).  Today, I was half joking, half lamenting that my birth year subtracted from the current year yields a fairly significant milestone birthday coming up later this year.  That said, I expected to have the exam, order my year's supply of contacts, and then carefully drive home in the cloudy weather with my eyes dilated and a little bedazzled by headlights and stoplights.

The result was different.

After dilating and imaging my retinas, the optometrist came in and told me that my retina is lumpy.  That's a kind way of saying it's detached.  At first we were talking about my left eye.  Then they double-checked my right eye, and found something similar.  It's way out of my field of view, so not a vision problem right now, but holy shit, I have detached retinas.  And this is something that happens because you have diabetes, or you're old.  I don't have diabetes.  I'm kind of freaking out here.

I'm scheduled first thing tomorrow for a visit to a specialist, and treatment could include laser beams or freezing my eye or possibly more invasive stuff.  Anyway, it makes me seriously think about whether the stash is enough and should I hang it up now.  What's the point of getting to "Beyond!" if I can't see the world to enjoy it?

[Dicey]

I think anything that gets a person to FIRE is a good thing,  but holy shit, that is scary! I hope the visit with the specialist gives you solid answers.

[EscapeVelocity2020]

...
I'm scheduled first thing tomorrow for a visit to a specialist, and treatment could include laser beams or freezing my eye or possibly more invasive stuff.  Anyway, it makes me seriously think about whether the stash is enough and should I hang it up now.  What's the point of getting to "Beyond!" if I can't see the world to enjoy it?

Sorry to hear this Taran and hope the specialists are able to keep or improve your quality of life quickly.  This brings up a thing I wonder about FIRE though, isn't it worse to ER and have to figure out medical insurance (especially when it comes to specialists and stuff like dental coverage) on our own?  I guess I'm lucky to have a ~$35k family plan paid for by my company that I probably wouldn't buy for myself, but also don't want to get hit by massive medical bills in the early years of ER.  How much to people budget for healthcare (insurance premiums and actual expenses)?? 

DD went to the emergency room once last year and I'm very thankful to have Aetna negotiate the bills and covering most of the cost.  Can't imagine what I'd be going through had I 'cheaped out' on a bronze plan, but also don't know what a silver or gold plan in Texas would be covering.

I'll be much more relaxed when the kids are on their own health insurance, but that won't be for several years still...

[lhamo]

If you have bad myopia you are at higher risk of retinal issues.

My vision was horrendous -- started wearing glasses at five, hard contact lenses at 10, and had corneas (and surgery for them) in my 40s.  I had a full blown retinal detachment last year.  Luckily I already had a great retinal specialist and am fully recovered after the surgery.  I am now back to seeing him once a year.  Be sure you know the signs of serious retinal issues.   I had increased floaters before the more serious curtaining started -- might have avoided an actual tear if I had gone in when I saw the floaters in the morning.

[Taran Wanderer]

Fortunately I have zero symptoms. It was caught in a routine exam, and it’s in my far outer lower corners of my eyes, which means upper center peripheral vision. I can’t notice any vision effect even if I look for it. I’m far-sighted, not near-sighted (myopic), and not diabetic, so no reason to suspect this. I’m in the exam now (lots of waiting) so I may be getting lasered in just a few minutes.

Fortunately DW’s insurance is solid. We switched to her’s last year.

It really makes me think about what’s important. Is more money really necessary? We probably have enough now. DW’s job is solid. I could always work later. We might have some inheritances in the future. Social security is out there in 15-20 years. Time for a more solid plan on all of that. But the math on 10-15 more years of work to have $15 - $20 million in the bank seems pretty darn stupid at this point.

[Car Jack]

Thanks for the updates folks.  It was a welcome gift from Congress that 529's are becoming more flexible and also that RMD's will be pushed out until I'm 75.  I got really lucky with the 529 that investment returns were amazing during the funding, then I switched to preservation in 2021 since DS started last fall.  Better yet, he has opted for a much more affordable option than what we had planned on (Texas State Technical College), but still not sure we are home free.  DD will be applying in 2 years and DS might change his mind.  Surprisingly, many of his cohorts have taken this year off entirely, choosing to stay at home and work while they figure life out.  So yeah, adding children to the FIRE planning mix can make the outcome swing wildly.  We were on the lucky side where our 529 is either fully or possibly over-funded, but just as easily could have been $100k short.  And it's still hard to know if we are doing the right thing by DS.  We pushed for him to go the traditional route, but it's silly to force them in to something expensive that they don't want.  For our daughter, it'll likely be the opposite, she'll want to spend top dollar and we'll have to give her a reality check about what makes sense...  We have friends that are paying full freight private elite college money for degrees like journalism, environmental science, etc., so to each their own, but we are not going to write a blank check, even if there are funds in the 529.

I think technical schools are potentially the best ROI option for many.   I look at some occupations that basically require a master's degree and yet may pay only $60-75K upon graduation.  You can easily drop $250-300K in tuition & related expenses landing a job in some of these professions.  That education is 4-5x starting salary.   I would like to see how that compares to a technical school degree.   And you might think  ...  yes, but over the course of a career, the former will far out-earn the latter.  But I am not sure that is the case, some of these professions that require the advanced degrees do not necessarily have salaries that increase dramatically as you gain more experience.

This is a really good point.  We found out about this because son #2 crashed and burned after one year of community college.  Covid was in full force so lots of options were gone.  I found a technical school that offered an 8 month, 4 day a week at 5 hours a night welding program.  Son went and completed this.  Total cost for the school was like $16k.  The 2 trades in shortest supply are truck driver and welder and since my son has had numerous accidents and speeding tickets, that wasn't going to happen.  This was a zero cost to me after paying my other son's private college costs at about $300k till his Bachelors degree was complete.

[arcturus]

Sorry to hear this @Taran Wanderer .  I have no experience with this, but certainly wishing you all the best as you deal with this.   I share similar thoughts to you, but for different reasons.  In my case, I'm seeing others age around me and starting to wonder if having a **plan** that extends till age 90+ really is necessary.   Or is it over-planning and *if* and *when* you get there, you'll figure it out.   Anyways, most importantly, wishing you the very best.

[arcturus]

Amen @Car Jack .....and your welder son will probably do very well in life and perhaps have a lower stress career that provides more balance, etc., as well as a chance to go into business for himself. 

[jeroly]

I went to the eye doctor for my annual check-up today. Over the past ten years or so this has involved assessing whether I need bifocals to deciding whether I need stronger bifocals.  There's also a weird pigment patch in my eye that we've been monitoring, but it's staying pretty boring (meaning no changes).  Today, I was half joking, half lamenting that my birth year subtracted from the current year yields a fairly significant milestone birthday coming up later this year.  That said, I expected to have the exam, order my year's supply of contacts, and then carefully drive home in the cloudy weather with my eyes dilated and a little bedazzled by headlights and stoplights.

The result was different.

After dilating and imaging my retinas, the optometrist came in and told me that my retina is lumpy.  That's a kind way of saying it's detached.  At first we were talking about my left eye.  Then they double-checked my right eye, and found something similar.  It's way out of my field of view, so not a vision problem right now, but holy shit, I have detached retinas.  And this is something that happens because you have diabetes, or you're old.  I don't have diabetes.  I'm kind of freaking out here.

I'm scheduled first thing tomorrow for a visit to a specialist, and treatment could include laser beams or freezing my eye or possibly more invasive stuff.  Anyway, it makes me seriously think about whether the stash is enough and should I hang it up now.  What's the point of getting to "Beyond!" if I can't see the world to enjoy it?

Sorry to hear about your retina problems. If it’s any consolation, my dad had laser surgery to reattach his retina about 25 years ago and it went smoothly with good results, and I’m sure the success rate is much higher now than back then.

...
I'm scheduled first thing tomorrow for a visit to a specialist, and treatment could include laser beams or freezing my eye or possibly more invasive stuff.  Anyway, it makes me seriously think about whether the stash is enough and should I hang it up now.  What's the point of getting to "Beyond!" if I can't see the world to enjoy it?

Sorry to hear this Taran and hope the specialists are able to keep or improve your quality of life quickly.  This brings up a thing I wonder about FIRE though, isn't it worse to ER and have to figure out medical insurance (especially when it comes to specialists and stuff like dental coverage) on our own?  I guess I'm lucky to have a ~$35k family plan paid for by my company that I probably wouldn't buy for myself, but also don't want to get hit by massive medical bills in the early years of ER.  How much to people budget for healthcare (insurance premiums and actual expenses)?? 

DD went to the emergency room once last year and I'm very thankful to have Aetna negotiate the bills and covering most of the cost.  Can't imagine what I'd be going through had I 'cheaped out' on a bronze plan, but also don't know what a silver or gold plan in Texas would be covering.

I'll be much more relaxed when the kids are on their own health insurance, but that won't be for several years still...

I’ve been FIREd since ‘00 and have been on ACA coverage (“Obamacare”) since it became available. It’s not cheap, but the coverage is good - I have access to the best doctors and my costs have a cap I can pay if necessary. Back in 2020, for example, I needed foot surgery and cardioversion, and both were covered completely after meeting my deductible.

[Taran Wanderer]

I made it out of the retina specialist’s with my eyes dilated for the next three days and sore eyeballs from her poking and prodding. Did you know that the retina extends about 270 degrees around your eyeball, basically all the way to your iris?  Do you also know that if your pupils are dilated enough, and if your eyeball is pushed inward hard enough, it is possible to see the edge of the iris through the pupil? Well, I not only now know that, I also got to experience it. Even with numbing drops, it was unpleasant.

For all that, the visit still ended with uncertainty. I probably do not have detaching retinas. Instead, the very edges of my retinas are kind of delaminating and not working anymore.  It doesn’t affect my vision because my nose and eyebrows block that area of vision anyway.

Why has this happened?  Don’t know. Could be trauma, but I have no history of that. Could be hereditary. Could be age.

When did it happen?  Don’t know. Could be something that happened. Could be something that was there since birth. (Could be Covid? That’s my question, not the doc’s.)

Will it get worse?  Don’t know. Come back in a month. If it looks the same, checking it will be part of my annual check up. If it’s worse, laser diagnosis and/or stitching is next.  @jeroly , thanks for the note about your dad - it’s great to hear of his results, especially for so long. Helps reduce anxiety about it.

Now that I’m pretty sure I’m not going blind this week, I’m taking DS skiing tomorrow, and I went ahead and bought the bike I’ve been mulling over for 2 or 3 years.  And DW will take the trip with her mom and aunt later this spring. And we’ll take the other trips we’re planning. And we’ll coach the kids’ teams and do the other fun things in life because we only get one shot at this.

[couponvan]

I don’t recommend skiing with dilated eyes! Maybe you mean you will be the lodge bunny for DS ski outing? You may get a headache with the dilation. My sons have to stay dilated during iritis flares, and it’s no fun.

[Taran Wanderer]

Yeah that would be bad, especially with a bright sunny day. Fortunately it wore off. It was also cloudy.

[rmorris50]

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/12/17/states-where-1-million-dollars-retirement-savings-runs-out-fastest.html?ac_cid=DM748936&ac_bid=1837332362

No one in this thread should be working based on this article!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[EscapeVelocity2020]

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/12/17/states-where-1-million-dollars-retirement-savings-runs-out-fastest.html?ac_cid=DM748936&ac_bid=1837332362

No one in this thread should be working based on this article!

Or we should be telecommuting from Hawaii!  Have to think outside the box 😎

[Dicey]

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/12/17/states-where-1-million-dollars-retirement-savings-runs-out-fastest.html?ac_cid=DM748936&ac_bid=1837332362

No one in this thread should be working based on this article!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Lol, "...according to Sam Dogen" (aka Financial Samurai) ... yeah, I'm not particularly interested in Sam's take on this subject.