Author Topic: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!  (Read 536945 times)

Buffaloski Boris

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3200 on: June 04, 2020, 05:49:40 PM »

I'm the obsessed one in the family and Hubs doesn't keep track at all.   
So how much is the 1% bracket in NW? How about the 3%?  We'll never make $870,000 a YEAR, so we need to claw our way up through some other door!

DW is the same way.  She is completely indifferent to where our finances are. So long as there's enough to support our relatively frugal lifestyle, it's just not relevant to her world.  The running joke is I have 30 seconds to talk about anything financial before the eyes glaze over.   

Buffaloski Boris

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3201 on: June 04, 2020, 05:57:06 PM »
Hah.. I "threatening" my Wife to go out and buy 'his & Her' Corvettes.

Wifey is horrified at the idea and I'm sure it would ruffle some feathers in DW's family.. Come to think of it one day I just might..:)

Yeah, but then you'd have to get rid of a perfectly good truck to make room.  That's most of why I haven't bought a newer truck.  My ancient $2000 SUV works and I'd have to get rid of it if I bought a newer truck.  And why would I want to do that?  Pffffthpt!  I'll just keep my SUV.  Even though the AC conked out.  What kind of wuss needs AC?  95 degrees is good for the sinuses. 

You can see where this is going.  I'll be pushing the SUV before I get rid of it.   

itchyfeet

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3202 on: June 04, 2020, 08:45:07 PM »
My DW also has absolutely zero interest in our financial position and investments. She never evens asks where our money is, or how much we have invested.

Thankfully she does have an interest in spending less and watches my spending like a Hawke. I don’t think she will ever let me blow money on toys irrespective of how “rich” we become, I worry that after I am gone she will be scared to spend even one penny of our savings, which really defeats the purpose of saving in the first place.

Meanwhile I am determined to spend what we have over the remainder of our lives and once I FIRE the plan is a 5% drawdown rate and only to spend less if I really must.

One thing COvID has shown me is how little it costs to stay at home and do nothing. We could really spend very little for an extended period if necessary.

So I think we will be very flexible in our spending. Some years it will be a 2% drawdown or less and some will be 8% plus I suppose.

Given long term real Stockmarket returns are around ~7%, I imagine at some point we will need to spend more than 8% a year to chew through some excess accumulation.

I don’t see his and her Corvette’s in my future, but maybe a 911 will one day grace my garage (although convincing DW will prob be an impossible task).

bluebelle

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3203 on: June 05, 2020, 07:07:46 AM »
I feel middle class even if the checkbook says differently.
I struggle with where we 'fit' (not that it matters, I'll just 'do me').....it was pointed out to me in another thread that based on income I'm a 1%er (I just can't believe that, but I read it on the internet so it must be true), and based on net worth I'm in the 85 percentile (I can believe that - I'm here with you, after all).....

Does everyone think of themselves as middle class?  Because I will always think of myself there....the closest I can come is defining myself as upper middle class.   By definition, if you're in the $2M+ thread, you are not 'middle class'

According to 2016 US data, a household income of about $870,000 a year is the top 1% mark and a household net worth of $750,000 is about the top 15% mark.

Which means you could personally bring a family to the top 15% net worth mark every year or two (depending on taxes), based on your income, and still live better than most in this country.    Thought that might be an interesting perspective.

Now, based on those numbers, it should take you no time to amass enough wealth to retire if you set your mind and budget to it.

www.shnugi.com
an $870K income seems more 1%er to me than what I'm getting out of the following calculator, it's showing $200,000 is in the 99 percentile for Ontario which feels really low to be a 1% and suggests one of two things, there are problems with the data or there are more people working for minimum wage than I think
https://www.thekickassentrepreneur.com/income-percentile-calculator-by-province-for-canada/

bluebelle

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3204 on: June 05, 2020, 07:37:37 AM »
I feel middle class even if the checkbook says differently.
I struggle with where we 'fit' (not that it matters, I'll just 'do me').....it was pointed out to me in another thread that based on income I'm a 1%er (I just can't believe that, but I read it on the internet so it must be true), and based on net worth I'm in the 85 percentile (I can believe that - I'm here with you, after all).....

Does everyone think of themselves as middle class?  Because I will always think of myself there....the closest I can come is defining myself as upper middle class.   By definition, if you're in the $2M+ thread, you are not 'middle class'

According to 2016 US data, a household income of about $870,000 a year is the top 1% mark and a household net worth of $750,000 is about the top 15% mark.

Which means you could personally bring a family to the top 15% net worth mark every year or two (depending on taxes), based on your income, and still live better than most in this country.    Thought that might be an interesting perspective.

Now, based on those numbers, it should take you no time to amass enough wealth to retire if you set your mind and budget to it.

www.shnugi.com

$870K income feels like a 1%er to me....but according to the website below, slightly less than $200K puts you in the 99 percentile in Ontario.   That is very surprising.   I feel like the data is flawed in someway, like the incomes included are for all Ontarians rather than those that consider themselves employed full time.   Or, as been pointed out to me, I'm out of touch and there are alot of folks working minimum wage jobs.

https://www.thekickassentrepreneur.com/income-percentile-calculator-by-province-for-canada/

Don't get me wrong, a salary north of $200K is not too shabby, but it's not what I think of when I think 1%er.


EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3205 on: June 05, 2020, 08:01:00 AM »
an $870K income seems more 1%er to me than what I'm getting out of the following calculator, it's showing $200,000 is in the 99 percentile for Ontario which feels really low to be a 1% and suggests one of two things, there are problems with the data or there are more people working for minimum wage than I think
https://www.thekickassentrepreneur.com/income-percentile-calculator-by-province-for-canada/

As always comes up in these discussions, numbers should be adjusted for geographic location and age.  It doesn't make sense to compare a household of two 55 year olds living and working in Manhattan to a 25 year old getting their first job in Lima, Ohio.  1% is very different for  these situations.

Bateaux

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3206 on: June 05, 2020, 08:10:41 AM »
Tossing around the jobs number in my head this morning.  The talking head on CNBC are having an orgy.  I'm very hopeful the 2.5 million jobs number is correct.   It's however a 10 million jobs difference in expectations!  So to me that means the numbers are bunk.   These estimates mean nothing and don't use them for advisement. Sitting in my current position, I'll make a shit ton of money to end this week.  All this exuberance is coming however when we may return to 80 or 90 percent of our previous economy?  All this with trillions of stimulus.   I guess I'll keep playing the game as long as the Fed is right checks.  We're almost back to personal all time portfolio highs and only 100K or so from the FIRE number.  That is till I bump the FIRE number up again.😁
« Last Edit: June 05, 2020, 08:13:17 AM by Bateaux »

Buffaloski Boris

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3207 on: June 05, 2020, 10:14:40 AM »
Tossing around the jobs number in my head this morning.  The talking head on CNBC are having an orgy.  I'm very hopeful the 2.5 million jobs number is correct.   It's however a 10 million jobs difference in expectations!  So to me that means the numbers are bunk.   These estimates mean nothing and don't use them for advisement. Sitting in my current position, I'll make a shit ton of money to end this week.  All this exuberance is coming however when we may return to 80 or 90 percent of our previous economy?  All this with trillions of stimulus.   I guess I'll keep playing the game as long as the Fed is right checks.  We're almost back to personal all time portfolio highs and only 100K or so from the FIRE number.  That is till I bump the FIRE number up again.😁

I'm thinking that what we see as insanity might well be perfectly rational and we just don't want to see it.  Maybe the pricing of US equities merely reflects that the premium for risk has eroded to the point that it's almost nonexistent. I took a look at the CAPE yield for the SP a couple of weeks ago (Inverse of CAPE minus 10yr treasury rate) and it was less than 3%. Probably even lower now. There's a lot of money sloshing around out there looking for yield and the risk premium is being bid way down. This could just be the new reality that has been evolving over the years (e.g. long term increase in CAPE and PEs).  More people see the famous turkey graph, decide that they're going to Win Bigly in the stock market over the long haul so they pile in, and thus the prices rise and the long term yields drop.

To which my response is good luck with that.       

DavidAnnArbor

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3208 on: June 05, 2020, 03:51:36 PM »
This interesting medium post suggests that having a slightly bigger stash is more important than asset allocation.

https://medium.com/@justusjp/how-important-is-asset-allocation-versus-withdrawal-rates-in-retirement-375e7a72591b

conclusion:

"Instead of stressing about trying to pick “the right” asset allocation, you’re better off picking anything reasonable and ignoring every other asset allocation internet discussion for the rest of your life…and then working an extra six or twelve months to pad out your retirement fund before retiring."

Bateaux

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3209 on: June 05, 2020, 04:51:09 PM »
This interesting medium post suggests that having a slightly bigger stash is more important than asset allocation.

https://medium.com/@justusjp/how-important-is-asset-allocation-versus-withdrawal-rates-in-retirement-375e7a72591b

conclusion:

"Instead of stressing about trying to pick “the right” asset allocation, you’re better off picking anything reasonable and ignoring every other asset allocation internet discussion for the rest of your life…and then working an extra six or twelve months to pad out your retirement fund before retiring."

Already lowered the withdrawal rate to 3%.  Probably need to push the stash a little higher as well.

LightTripper

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3210 on: June 05, 2020, 05:02:40 PM »
Interesting (though I think I prefer ERN's articles on similar topics: which I think also show that a slightly lower withdrawal rate is more important than picking the perfect asset allocation: though I think from memory that he does also show that some of the dynamic approaches can improve your chances in a relatively painless way (in that they stop you becoming mega-wealthy if you retire into a great sequence of returns - which I can live with - but also help put a floor under the worst cases).

As my AA starts to come up to something vaguely sensible (rather than <50% equities, as it was, which I don't think ANYBODY suggests is a good allocation for early retirement) I need to start to read up a bit more thoroughly on this stuff...

pecunia

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3211 on: June 05, 2020, 08:57:45 PM »
This interesting medium post suggests that having a slightly bigger stash is more important than asset allocation.

https://medium.com/@justusjp/how-important-is-asset-allocation-versus-withdrawal-rates-in-retirement-375e7a72591b

conclusion:

"Instead of stressing about trying to pick “the right” asset allocation, you’re better off picking anything reasonable and ignoring every other asset allocation internet discussion for the rest of your life…and then working an extra six or twelve months to pad out your retirement fund before retiring."

Thanks - You made me feel better about going the OMY twice.  Going from 4 percent to 3.7 percent does not seem that severe.

itchyfeet

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3212 on: June 06, 2020, 12:51:26 AM »
I certainly feel more relaxed about asset allocation than other questions pertaining to FIRE.

Mostly what I am worried about is what will I do if I am not working 50 hours a week, and what do we wish our life to look like 5 or 10 years from now.

On the money side I am mostly worried about whether we should be budgeting to financially support our parents, and maybe even our nieces and nephews, and how much support should we anticipate giving. I think it’s going to be difficult for us to live our very cashed up retirement whilst our families are on struggle street. I just don’t see us turning our backs and saying “they made their decisions we made ours. Let them live the consequences”. Not that our nieces and nephews made any decision, but they are victims of their parents’ decisions.

I found out this week that DW’s father has saved $300K for retirement and will retire this year. That is not going to go far especially as DW’s mother suffers from Parkinson’s disease and is in ever increasing need of care. If we could give them 10k or 20k a year it would greatly boost their quality of life. By working one more year we could provide that level of financial support for the rest of their lives.


2Birds1Stone

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3213 on: June 06, 2020, 01:25:44 AM »
But surely you could work two more years and provide them even better end of life support, why not a third to save hundreds of thousands in impoverished countries from preventable disease, and a fourth to adopt your long lost stepson, 2B1S.

Just kidding, but see how this is a slippery slope?

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soccerluvof4

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3214 on: June 06, 2020, 02:56:40 AM »
This interesting medium post suggests that having a slightly bigger stash is more important than asset allocation.

https://medium.com/@justusjp/how-important-is-asset-allocation-versus-withdrawal-rates-in-retirement-375e7a72591b

conclusion:

"Instead of stressing about trying to pick “the right” asset allocation, you’re better off picking anything reasonable and ignoring every other asset allocation internet discussion for the rest of your life…and then working an extra six or twelve months to pad out your retirement fund before retiring."

Already lowered the withdrawal rate to 3%.  Probably need to push the stash a little higher as well.


With the "Staying at home" I was below 3% closer to 2. Think the one good thing that came or is coming out of this is just that. Definitely will be staying at 3% even as things return to whatever the new normal will look like.

itchyfeet

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3215 on: June 06, 2020, 03:32:35 AM »
But surely you could work two more years and provide them even better end of life support, why not a third to save hundreds of thousands in impoverished countries from preventable disease, and a fourth to adopt your long lost stepson, 2B1S.

Just kidding, but see how this is a slippery slope?

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And maybe you are right. Maybe the right thing is for a healthy, still 40 something, guy to keep working a few more years and not just one.... or heaven forbid none. 😉

ixtap

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3216 on: June 06, 2020, 06:41:32 AM »
But surely you could work two more years and provide them even better end of life support, why not a third to save hundreds of thousands in impoverished countries from preventable disease, and a fourth to adopt your long lost stepson, 2B1S.

Just kidding, but see how this is a slippery slope?

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And maybe you are right. Maybe the right thing is for a healthy, still 40 something, guy to keep working a few more years and not just one.... or heaven forbid none. 😉

We have all those thoughts because most of our siblings have made bad.decisions. However, it's his family that is likely to expect a hand out, but he definitely isn't healthy. It's skeleton muscular, not something that is going to kill him, but getting away from the stress of his job might help with the pain.

itchyfeet

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3217 on: June 06, 2020, 11:42:12 AM »
IXTAP, I think you misunderstood.

DW’s father health is fine. He is retiring to look after his wife who suffers from Parkinson’s. She is pretty limited in what she can do on her own these days.

They don’t have much money and I feel we should help them out as with one more year of work would would be able to help out financially in a very significant way.

ixtap

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3218 on: June 06, 2020, 12:03:08 PM »
IXTAP, I think you misunderstood.

DW’s father health is fine. He is retiring to look after his wife who suffers from Parkinson’s. She is pretty limited in what she can do on her own these days.

They don’t have much money and I feel we should help them out as with one more year of work would would be able to help out financially in a very significant way.

I was responding to the statement that a healthy 40 something in particular might feel obligated to keep working to help out family.

lhamo

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3219 on: June 06, 2020, 01:29:29 PM »
I don't think there is any need to shame someone who enjoys their work and is continuing to work for pay beyond when they have met their own FIRE needs because they want to ensure they are in the financial position to do something to help others.  In fact I think that is pretty noble, as long as it comes from a place of really knowing themselves and as a matter of free choice -- not because of fear or guilt.  But if they are working in a toxic environment that is damaging their own mental/physical health, then they might want to consider dropping the toxic job and finding other ways to generate income to help others -- through PT or seasonal work or doing something they are passionate about.

BlueHouse

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3220 on: June 08, 2020, 01:13:16 PM »
But surely you could work two more years and provide them even better end of life support, why not a third to save hundreds of thousands in impoverished countries from preventable disease, and a fourth to adopt your long lost stepson, 2B1S.

Just kidding, but see how this is a slippery slope?

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Slippery slope?  I'm sorry if this insults you, but I think that's about the weakest argument for ANY topic ever. 

Ixtap, I commend you. 

One thing I've learned during this COVID crisis is that generosity makes me feel really good.  I mean incredibly good.  I made a decision back in February that I would save my usual in tax-advantaged accounts, but anything that I would normally save in after-tax brokerage, I'm going to donate instead.  To charity, to causes, to gofundme, to obscene tips for people who do things that I don't want to do, and even just as cash handouts.  That's going to be about $70K this year on top of what I've already committed to my own family members.  You know what that commitment has done for me so far?  It makes me not sweat the small stuff. 

Granted, we're all at different stages of this FIRE goal, but you know what it's going to cost me to do this?  one more year.  That's NOTHING to me.  I feel so fortunate to still have a job through this pandemic, and I'm still saving a shit-ton of money.  I'm just going to save about half as much as normal.  I can still be frugal with the way I choose to live while being generous with others.  Not everyone has the same advantages that I've had my whole life and I've decided that during this period of generosity, I'm not going to judge others for how they spend their own money. 

It's so liberating.  I know, this kind of thinking could get me thrown out of MMM, but it's living a way that is meaningful to me.

Car Jack

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3221 on: June 08, 2020, 02:15:04 PM »
Onto some dry numbers.

My spread sheet of investments always has the "next goal" set up, so I can look and think "Only this much more to go until I have $xxxx".  Well, at close today, it's a minus sign, so ticked over $2.8MM invested.  I'll wait for the end of the week, assuming things stick before changing the goal to $2.9MM.  With the wife's 401k just set up in her new job, that will add quite a bit to our contributions (set up to invest the entire $26k for her before the end of the year). 

Onward and (hopefully) upward.

SwordGuy

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3222 on: June 08, 2020, 04:08:50 PM »
One thing I've learned during this COVID crisis is that generosity makes me feel really good.  I mean incredibly good.  I made a decision back in February that I would save my usual in tax-advantaged accounts, but anything that I would normally save in after-tax brokerage, I'm going to donate instead.  To charity, to causes, to gofundme, to obscene tips for people who do things that I don't want to do, and even just as cash handouts.  That's going to be about $70K this year on top of what I've already committed to my own family members.  You know what that commitment has done for me so far?  It makes me not sweat the small stuff. 

Granted, we're all at different stages of this FIRE goal, but you know what it's going to cost me to do this?  one more year.  That's NOTHING to me.  I feel so fortunate to still have a job through this pandemic, and I'm still saving a shit-ton of money.  I'm just going to save about half as much as normal.  I can still be frugal with the way I choose to live while being generous with others.  Not everyone has the same advantages that I've had my whole life and I've decided that during this period of generosity, I'm not going to judge others for how they spend their own money. 

It's so liberating.  I know, this kind of thinking could get me thrown out of MMM, but it's living a way that is meaningful to me.

Good for you!   

We've saved an architecturally cool house from destruction, we've helped friends start a business (and they are the kinds of folks who will do the same once they are established), we've helped a friend buy a house, we're letting medical folks stay in one of our rental houses for free so they don't infect their families with covid-19, and we're going to give a house away.   And because we've been clever about it, we've been able to recycle a lot of that money so it helps more than once.   

After we have enough for ourselves and our mentally handicapped daughter, the rest can be put to better use than just piling up more money.   

We get way more joy out of doing things like this than we would get from a fancy car or just more money in the bank.

"Money is like manure, it needs to be spread around to help young things grow."


Bateaux

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3223 on: June 08, 2020, 06:01:27 PM »
The Mustacian lifestyle can get you here.  No rules say you have to stop at some level.   The desire to give money away can be reason enough to work a little longer.  Putting grandchildren through college can be a goal.   You may sacrifice some of your time here on Earth working after the time needed for your own expenses.  Maybe that satisfies your own personal needs to give back.   We'll be looking at where we stand at the end of the year.  DW is ready.   She has knee replacement surgery coming up and we'll have to get her healthy before retirement.  She has taken plenty time without pay this year for various non health reasons and enjoys freedom away from work.  She loves giving back. She's done wonderful things for people in need.  I want her to have the opportunity to keep doing that. 

Buffaloski Boris

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3224 on: June 08, 2020, 07:00:47 PM »
The Mustacian lifestyle can get you here.  No rules say you have to stop at some level.   The desire to give money away can be reason enough to work a little longer.  Putting grandchildren through college can be a goal.   You may sacrifice some of your time here on Earth working after the time needed for your own expenses.  Maybe that satisfies your own personal needs to give back.   We'll be looking at where we stand at the end of the year.  DW is ready.   She has knee replacement surgery coming up and we'll have to get her healthy before retirement.  She has taken plenty time without pay this year for various non health reasons and enjoys freedom away from work.  She loves giving back. She's done wonderful things for people in need.  I want her to have the opportunity to keep doing that.

To each their own sense of fulfillment.  My goal is freedom for my family, and their kids and their kids onto the 4th generation. Better still if I can expand freedom for friends and other folks I care about as well. 

« Last Edit: June 08, 2020, 07:02:27 PM by Buffaloski Boris »

LightTripper

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3225 on: June 09, 2020, 02:52:01 AM »
It's so liberating.  I know, this kind of thinking could get me thrown out of MMM, but it's living a way that is meaningful to me.

It's also very cool!

GreenEggs

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3226 on: June 09, 2020, 06:06:45 AM »
It's so liberating.  I know, this kind of thinking could get me thrown out of MMM, but it's living a way that is meaningful to me.

It's also very cool!


Ditto. 


The world would be a better place if there were more blue houses.  :)

pecunia

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3227 on: June 09, 2020, 07:34:26 AM »
Yeh - Maybe I'll do wonderful things for people in need.  The difference is that I'm the people in need.

BlueHouse

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3228 on: June 09, 2020, 09:02:25 AM »

We've saved an architecturally cool house from destruction, we've helped friends start a business (and they are the kinds of folks who will do the same once they are established), we've helped a friend buy a house, we're letting medical folks stay in one of our rental houses for free so they don't infect their families with covid-19, and we're going to give a house away.   And because we've been clever about it, we've been able to recycle a lot of that money so it helps more than once.   
"Money is like manure, it needs to be spread around to help young things grow."

This is amazing! Congratulations and it's so inspiring to me to hear what generous people are doing.  Thank you for sharing!

Yeh - Maybe I'll do wonderful things for people in need.  The difference is that I'm the people in need.
You will when you can.  :)




2sk22

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3229 on: June 09, 2020, 09:28:04 AM »
I am embarrassed to even admit how much our household's net worth has risen :-)

Completely independently,  I have come to adopt much the same approach as @BlueHouse . I've found that nothing makes me happier than helping others. Example: There is one favorite small independent pizzeria that we order from regularly. The normally cheerful owner looked  despondent last week - he was really concerned about business. On the spot I bought a $250 gift certificate that I will donate to our high school when it reopens in the fall.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3230 on: June 09, 2020, 10:28:56 AM »
I am embarrassed to even admit how much our household's net worth has risen :-)

Completely independently,  I have come to adopt much the same approach as @BlueHouse . I've found that nothing makes me happier than helping others. Example: There is one favorite small independent pizzeria that we order from regularly. The normally cheerful owner looked  despondent last week - he was really concerned about business. On the spot I bought a $250 gift certificate that I will donate to our high school when it reopens in the fall.

In my experience, capital returns are consistently much better than labor.  That's why I skip posts on savings rates, because it doesn't apply to folks that have hit FI.  I'm working for the quality of life that it brings, not for the paycheck.  But that is also why it is so important that folks who have 'won the game' do our best to help others who are early on the path of building capital.

On the flip side, DS just started his first summer job and it reminds me of how important it is not to forget how depressing it is to feel like you are a slave to the grind.  It's been humbling but fantastic for our family discussions!

LetItGrow

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3231 on: June 09, 2020, 12:54:37 PM »
I am embarrassed to even admit how much our household's net worth has risen :-)

Completely independently,  I have come to adopt much the same approach as @BlueHouse . I've found that nothing makes me happier than helping others. Example: There is one favorite small independent pizzeria that we order from regularly. The normally cheerful owner looked  despondent last week - he was really concerned about business. On the spot I bought a $250 gift certificate that I will donate to our high school when it reopens in the fall.

In my experience, capital returns are consistently much better than labor.  That's why I skip posts on savings rates, because it doesn't apply to folks that have hit FI.  I'm working for the quality of life that it brings, not for the paycheck.  But that is also why it is so important that folks who have 'won the game' do our best to help others who are early on the path of building capital.

On the flip side, DS just started his first summer job and it reminds me of how important it is not to forget how depressing it is to feel like you are a slave to the grind.  It's been humbling but fantastic for our family discussions!

Have you considered giving him a 'match' if he contributes to a Roth? I was looking at my SSN record and thinking 'what if that $2000 I made in 1987 was put into an SP500 fund?'

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3232 on: June 09, 2020, 01:59:06 PM »
Have you considered giving him a 'match' if he contributes to a Roth? I was looking at my SSN record and thinking 'what if that $2000 I made in 1987 was put into an SP500 fund?'

It's an interesting idea, but I'd worry that his first experience with investing has him losing money over the short term and he won't have chance to recover during the school year.  I'm still not convinced that this is a good time to commit what is essentially all his money to investments which may lose a substantial %.

I'll revisit the decision if we get back down to S&P 2400, and maybe start a Roth in his name at that time so that he gets to keep 'his money' and watch the 'free' investments, with less worry about if they are depressed for a while.

My Dad did something similar with me by gifting me P&G stock (certificates actually).  Good learning experience, but now it is more of a few thousand dollar annoyance (reporting the taxable income and keeping track of the cost basis).  I'd sell it all but the paperwork hardly seems worth the hassle.

Buffaloski Boris

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3233 on: June 09, 2020, 02:49:29 PM »

In my experience, capital returns are consistently much better than labor.  That's why I skip posts on savings rates, because it doesn't apply to folks that have hit FI.  I'm working for the quality of life that it brings, not for the paycheck.  But that is also why it is so important that folks who have 'won the game' do our best to help others who are early on the path of building capital.
Capital gains are usually the bestest as they're taxed at a much lower rate. 
Quote

On the flip side, DS just started his first summer job and it reminds me of how important it is not to forget how depressing it is to feel like you are a slave to the grind.  It's been humbling but fantastic for our family discussions!

Dittoes on setting up the Roth.  You can always put the money into something else (cash? bonds? gold? pork bellies? seashell futures?) in the short run and pivot into equities at a later date. 

Dicey

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3234 on: June 09, 2020, 02:57:28 PM »
I am embarrassed to even admit how much our household's net worth has risen :-)

Completely independently,  I have come to adopt much the same approach as @BlueHouse . I've found that nothing makes me happier than helping others. Example: There is one favorite small independent pizzeria that we order from regularly. The normally cheerful owner looked  despondent last week - he was really concerned about business. On the spot I bought a $250 gift certificate that I will donate to our high school when it reopens in the fall.
Good for you! Even better, did you tell him what you're going to do with them? I suspect that might make him happier still. I think a lot of business owners would appreciate having reasons for keeping the doors open. It wouldn't surprise me if a lot of Mom & Pop shops just decided to hang it up after this. Knowing they are important in their communities would appreciated, whatever they decide to do.

BeanCounter

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3235 on: June 09, 2020, 03:48:44 PM »
You all are a bad influence. After all the discussion up thread about holding more cash I started to get more uncomfortable. We decided to rebalance our portfolio last week. Backing down off the 80/10/10 (or so) that I had determined to stay with. We are now at 70% equity, 20% bonds and, 10% cash.
I did meet with the financial advisor we have used in the past and he talked me out of moving it to cash and instead going to a bond fund and some muni bonds. He said if you're going to move it to cash then you should pay off your mortgage. We just refinanced to a 2.75% rate, so we decided to go with moving to some bond funds and revisit paying off the mortgage when things in the economy feels like it has stabilized a little. Even better he showed us that the managed S&P brokerage account we have for tax purposes had enough losses accumulated that we could offset any gains on what we sell in the other brokerage account. Somehow I had missed this in my own analysis. Which means half our $1M outside of retirement accounts is now much more conservative and available to pay bills in the future.
We rebalanced last Friday, getting a little market pick up. We're now down only 3% from the February highs. And I feel we now can better weather another big downturn.
More importantly-I'm putting my notice in this Friday!!!!!! I'm planning to just give them nine weeks to figure it out, which probably isn't enough for them, but more than I really want to do. I'll just be glad to get my notice in and over with!

Buffaloski Boris

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3236 on: June 09, 2020, 04:15:29 PM »
You all are a bad influence. After all the discussion up thread about holding more cash I started to get more uncomfortable. We decided to rebalance our portfolio last week. Backing down off the 80/10/10 (or so) that I had determined to stay with. We are now at 70% equity, 20% bonds and, 10% cash.
I did meet with the financial advisor we have used in the past and he talked me out of moving it to cash and instead going to a bond fund and some muni bonds. He said if you're going to move it to cash then you should pay off your mortgage. We just refinanced to a 2.75% rate, so we decided to go with moving to some bond funds and revisit paying off the mortgage when things in the economy feels like it has stabilized a little. Even better he showed us that the managed S&P brokerage account we have for tax purposes had enough losses accumulated that we could offset any gains on what we sell in the other brokerage account. Somehow I had missed this in my own analysis. Which means half our $1M outside of retirement accounts is now much more conservative and available to pay bills in the future.
We rebalanced last Friday, getting a little market pick up. We're now down only 3% from the February highs. And I feel we now can better weather another big downturn.
More importantly-I'm putting my notice in this Friday!!!!!! I'm planning to just give them nine weeks to figure it out, which probably isn't enough for them, but more than I really want to do. I'll just be glad to get my notice in and over with!

Congratulations on your soon to be retirement!  Please try to remember us (not) poor slobs who continue to labor away.   

ETA: I'm glad we're a bad influence on you.  You're well on your way to perdition and wickedness. Too bad that you'll have to give up your simple path to wealth secret-decoder ring now. 

"That BeanCounter was such a good person till he (she?) fell in with those MMM folks." 
« Last Edit: June 09, 2020, 04:21:38 PM by Buffaloski Boris »

pecunia

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3237 on: June 09, 2020, 04:38:53 PM »

-SNIP-

We rebalanced last Friday, getting a little market pick up. We're now down only 3% from the February highs. And I feel we now can better weather another big downturn.

More importantly-I'm putting my notice in this Friday!!!!!! I'm planning to just give them nine weeks to figure it out, which probably isn't enough for them, but more than I really want to do. I'll just be glad to get my notice in and over with!

Congratulations!

Here's the deal.  How much do they give to some poor slob they are letting go?  Last December they told some guys I worked with the Friday before Christmas that they were gone that afternoon.  I gave them two weeks when I left and did not burn any bridges.  You are more than generous.

BeanCounter

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3238 on: June 09, 2020, 05:34:08 PM »
You all are a bad influence. After all the discussion up thread about holding more cash I started to get more uncomfortable. We decided to rebalance our portfolio last week. Backing down off the 80/10/10 (or so) that I had determined to stay with. We are now at 70% equity, 20% bonds and, 10% cash.
I did meet with the financial advisor we have used in the past and he talked me out of moving it to cash and instead going to a bond fund and some muni bonds. He said if you're going to move it to cash then you should pay off your mortgage. We just refinanced to a 2.75% rate, so we decided to go with moving to some bond funds and revisit paying off the mortgage when things in the economy feels like it has stabilized a little. Even better he showed us that the managed S&P brokerage account we have for tax purposes had enough losses accumulated that we could offset any gains on what we sell in the other brokerage account. Somehow I had missed this in my own analysis. Which means half our $1M outside of retirement accounts is now much more conservative and available to pay bills in the future.
We rebalanced last Friday, getting a little market pick up. We're now down only 3% from the February highs. And I feel we now can better weather another big downturn.
More importantly-I'm putting my notice in this Friday!!!!!! I'm planning to just give them nine weeks to figure it out, which probably isn't enough for them, but more than I really want to do. I'll just be glad to get my notice in and over with!

Congratulations on your soon to be retirement!  Please try to remember us (not) poor slobs who continue to labor away.   

ETA: I'm glad we're a bad influence on you.  You're well on your way to perdition and wickedness. Too bad that you'll have to give up your simple path to wealth secret-decoder ring now. 

"That BeanCounter was such a good person till he (she?) fell in with those MMM folks."
Thanks!
I don’t know how much “perdition and wickedness” there will be. I’m just a mom. My FIRE goal is to attempt to give my boys the very best of me as they go through middle and high school. Though I’m sure there is room for some fun in there too.

secondcor521

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3239 on: June 09, 2020, 06:08:44 PM »
I’m just a mom.

I hope you don't think me obnoxious or chauvinistic, but I FIFY.  Moms are the best.

BeanCounter

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3240 on: June 09, 2020, 06:15:50 PM »
I’m just a mom.

I hope you don't think me obnoxious or chauvinistic, but I FIFY.  Moms are the best.
Haha. I kinda needed that today. Not my best day moming.
It’s already been a long summer of nothing and we are all over it.

lhamo

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3241 on: June 09, 2020, 06:22:48 PM »
Congratulations!

Being around for my kids' teen years has been a great choice for our family. Quarantine with DD home from school has actually been pretty nice -- no alarms!

Buffaloski Boris

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3242 on: June 09, 2020, 06:24:11 PM »

-SNIP-

We rebalanced last Friday, getting a little market pick up. We're now down only 3% from the February highs. And I feel we now can better weather another big downturn.

More importantly-I'm putting my notice in this Friday!!!!!! I'm planning to just give them nine weeks to figure it out, which probably isn't enough for them, but more than I really want to do. I'll just be glad to get my notice in and over with!

Congratulations!

Here's the deal.  How much do they give to some poor slob they are letting go?  Last December they told some guys I worked with the Friday before Christmas that they were gone that afternoon.  I gave them two weeks when I left and did not burn any bridges.  You are more than generous.

I learned a really good life lesson about that when I was younger.  I found a new job that paid me almost double what I was earning at my job at the time.  I gave them the full 2 weeks notice the day I knew I was leaving.  They paid me through that day and sent me on my way.  I really could've used the money and the work in the two week interim period.  But no dice. 

BeanCounter

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3243 on: June 09, 2020, 06:43:27 PM »

-SNIP-

We rebalanced last Friday, getting a little market pick up. We're now down only 3% from the February highs. And I feel we now can better weather another big downturn.

More importantly-I'm putting my notice in this Friday!!!!!! I'm planning to just give them nine weeks to figure it out, which probably isn't enough for them, but more than I really want to do. I'll just be glad to get my notice in and over with!

Congratulations!

Here's the deal.  How much do they give to some poor slob they are letting go?  Last December they told some guys I worked with the Friday before Christmas that they were gone that afternoon.  I gave them two weeks when I left and did not burn any bridges.  You are more than generous.

I learned a really good life lesson about that when I was younger.  I found a new job that paid me almost double what I was earning at my job at the time.  I gave them the full 2 weeks notice the day I knew I was leaving.  They paid me through that day and sent me on my way.  I really could've used the money and the work in the two week interim period.  But no dice.
I worked at a large insurer previously and this was our policy. However when I was laid off as part of a major re-organization they gave me ten weeks severance and asked me to stay four of the ten to turn over and train remaining staff on my spreadsheets, models, processes and procedures. I said no and gave them one week. I mean that’s bullshit right? Other folks didn’t have to work any of their ten weeks of severance!
I’m pretty sure this job will have a hard time with my resignation. I’ve been a SME there for eight years. In some instances I know where the bodies are hidden. I can name at least three things off the top of my head that nobody else knows how to do. This gives me a lot of anxiety.

SwordGuy

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3244 on: June 09, 2020, 07:16:20 PM »

I’m pretty sure this job will have a hard time with my resignation. I’ve been a SME there for eight years. In some instances I know where the bodies are hidden. I can name at least three things off the top of my head that nobody else knows how to do. This gives me a lot of anxiety.

I was following until you got to that last sentence.  Why?   Will people die if they do this wrong?   Will people get maimed?   Will a city lose electrical power or get flooded out if they do these tasks wrong?   Will it affect your net worth?

Because if the downside is a corporation - a legal body that has no soul - will just make less money, simply don't give a damn.   

If the organization does good things for people and you believe in its mission, then go the extra mile because of its mission.

fredbear

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3245 on: June 09, 2020, 07:25:05 PM »

Have you considered giving him a 'match' if he contributes to a Roth? I was looking at my SSN record and thinking 'what if that $2000 I made in 1987 was put into an SP500 fund?'

I set up a family 401(k), with a 1:1 match up to 10% of the part of their earnings that they invested.  The chosen mutual fund paid quarterly dividends and I graphed it all, so they could see their contributions, the match, and the tiny but compounding dividends,  It helped make savers of them all. 

Bateaux

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3246 on: June 09, 2020, 07:38:15 PM »
Congratulations Beancounter.  It's going to be awesome.  Please stick around and share the good news.  We're trying to get it done by year end.  Maybe burn off some vacation in 2021, but not much if any work.  A friend just texted me a reminder of our Canada to Mexico mountain bike trip next summer.  I hope to be on the Appalachian Trail by March.   Life is good.  Have fun.

LightTripper

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3247 on: June 10, 2020, 12:52:31 AM »
Congratulations BeanCounter!! I want to do more Mumming when I retire next year too, so wishing you all the best, and please let us know how it all goes!

pecunia

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3248 on: June 10, 2020, 05:02:48 AM »

I’m pretty sure this job will have a hard time with my resignation. I’ve been a SME there for eight years. In some instances I know where the bodies are hidden. I can name at least three things off the top of my head that nobody else knows how to do. This gives me a lot of anxiety.

I was following until you got to that last sentence.  Why?   Will people die if they do this wrong?   Will people get maimed?   Will a city lose electrical power or get flooded out if they do these tasks wrong?   Will it affect your net worth?

Because if the downside is a corporation - a legal body that has no soul - will just make less money, simply don't give a damn.   

If the organization does good things for people and you believe in its mission, then go the extra mile because of its mission.

I agree completely with SwordGuy.  If you are the only one that can do certain things, they have run their organization poorly.  There should be no bodies.  Don't make their problem your problem.  And,......he is right corporations may be legally defined as people, but have no soul, no compassion and no remorse for their actions.

couponvan

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3249 on: June 10, 2020, 06:39:56 AM »
I’m just a mom.

I hope you don't think me obnoxious or chauvinistic, but I FIFY.  Moms are the best.
Haha. I kinda needed that today. Not my best day moming.
It’s already been a long summer spring of nothing and we are all over it.
Summer starts 6/22, so only spring has to be over!  :-)  Make summer the best!

We are dipping our toes in the next race, as we crossed over the $2 million mark two days ago.  It's slow going now that I am retired and we have a kid in college. We will be hovering in this race and the last one for awhile as college payments/tax bills will keep us instant replaying the $2 million finish line for a few more months. I planted two pear trees they day we crossed for the first time vs. paying $65 to have the nursery plant them.  More DIY projects get completed in retirement for sure.

Moms are the best, but teenagers don't necessarily appreciate you. I hope you love your retirement, and I will tell you that your company will survive just fine without you - they may complain a bit about the remaining coworkers left behind, but they will survive.  From one beancounter to another!