Author Topic: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!  (Read 427222 times)

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
« Reply #2050 on: December 13, 2019, 11:24:33 AM »
Almost makes me want to work again..:)
Actually I am feeling the need for an assignment to sink my teeth into!
I can almost picture you showing up to work in your hospital gown, one arm still numb, asking the project team where to sit and what documents are behind schedule!  Hope you are back to 100% soon EFB

Exflyboy

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Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
« Reply #2051 on: December 13, 2019, 11:40:32 AM »
Almost makes me want to work again..:)
Actually I am feeling the need for an assignment to sink my teeth into!
I can almost picture you showing up to work in your hospital gown, one arm still numb, asking the project team where to sit and what documents are behind schedule!  Hope you are back to 100% soon EFB

Hah.. you forgot the slightly stoned facial expression from the prescription narcotics..:)

UnleashHell

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Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
« Reply #2052 on: December 13, 2019, 02:15:58 PM »
Almost makes me want to work again..:)
Actually I am feeling the need for an assignment to sink my teeth into!
I can almost picture you showing up to work in your hospital gown, one arm still numb, asking the project team where to sit and what documents are behind schedule!  Hope you are back to 100% soon EFB

Hah.. you forgot the slightly stoned facial expression from the prescription narcotics..:)

huge advantage in a corporate setting

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
« Reply #2053 on: December 13, 2019, 03:38:09 PM »
Almost makes me want to work again..:)
Actually I am feeling the need for an assignment to sink my teeth into!
I can almost picture you showing up to work in your hospital gown, one arm still numb, asking the project team where to sit and what documents are behind schedule!  Hope you are back to 100% soon EFB

Hah.. you forgot the slightly stoned facial expression from the prescription narcotics..:)

huge advantage in a corporate setting

Youíd probably be promoted for paying such close attention and thinking so deeply

Dicey

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Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
« Reply #2054 on: December 14, 2019, 02:59:24 AM »
Almost makes me want to work again..:)
Actually I am feeling the need for an assignment to sink my teeth into!
I can almost picture you showing up to work in your hospital gown, one arm still numb, asking the project team where to sit and what documents are behind schedule!  Hope you are back to 100% soon EFB

Hah.. you forgot the slightly stoned facial expression from the prescription narcotics..:)

huge advantage in a corporate setting

Youíd probably be promoted for paying such close attention and thinking so deeply
You guys are funny. Careful what you wish for, Frank.

pecunia

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Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
« Reply #2055 on: December 14, 2019, 09:54:41 AM »
OK - The year is rolling to an end.  My stash is high enough for me to survive for many years,..........

I'm looking to hang it up,..........

but,...........

The so-called experts are giving gloom and doom that countries are swimming in a debt swamp and the gators are hungry &
Large corporations are floating in the same swamp like raw meat to feed the gators &
Most of the people of the US are swimming in this swamp oblivious to the foul smell of their debt.

These experts are saying the gators will eat soon and the stock market will come tumbling down.

Is it really more primed to tumble than at any other time?  Isn't it in the best interests of the folks who run things - CEOs, government, the Illuminati, the Council on Foreign Relations, the Banksters, the Cosa Nostra, the CIA, the guys who shot JFK, and the Military Industrial Complex to keep the stock market rolling ahead?

All answers are appreciated.




flyingaway

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Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
« Reply #2056 on: December 14, 2019, 10:02:39 AM »
Money doesn't grow on trees, they must come from somewhere. I am just amazed the debt that the U.S. government can have to boost the spending. Any others doing that would be accused of running a Ponzi scheme.
Wait, many people actually like Ponzi schemes, they get in it knowing perfectly what it is, just hoping to get out faster than others.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
« Reply #2057 on: December 14, 2019, 10:25:49 AM »
@pecunia This has been a similar refrain since 2011...  Just take a long quiet walk and think about what YOU think.  Do you want to move boldly in a new direction or are you happiest for now with the status quo?  Either way you have it pretty good and, just to be honest, many in the world would be quite happy in your shoes going either way.  Maybe moving in that new direction would help you to appreciate that fully?  I guarantee any 2M plus 4% folks will be fine as long as we are truly frugal during a downturn.  The only part that might frustrate me would be missing out on more accumulation, but technically weíve already won that game...  Donít let your inner bag lady call all the shots, we donít need to move from the 1% to the 0.1% in order to have abundance in ER.  But, on the flip side, try to define what gets you excited about ER, what do you want more of once you have the extra time and energy?

carstenjames

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Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
« Reply #2058 on: December 14, 2019, 10:40:39 AM »
@pecunia This has been a similar refrain since 2011...

Agreed. Doomsayers are a dime a dozen. Economies are complex and governments are stupid; best thing you can do is own assets that have value independent of what anyone says about them (income producing properties, companies that make money, etc.). You are in a better position than most of America and will be fine whatever direction you choose which is an amazing place to be--you get to choose what you want because you already have what you need!

@pecunia we donít need to move from the 1% to the 0.1% in order to have abundance in ER.

A networth between 2 - 3M, at least in the USA, is no where near the 1%. For that distinction you would need about 10M (if you aren't counting home equity). You can calculate your particular percentile here: https://dqydj.com/net-worth-percentile-calculator-united-states/

pecunia

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Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
« Reply #2059 on: December 14, 2019, 01:34:32 PM »
That link was from 2017, but I doubt whether it changed much.  Top five percent.  Wow!

It is truly hard to get my head around this.  I'll have to think on it over the holiday break.  Maybe OMP (One More Project)).  It would be nice to call it quits in Spring.  It just fits.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
« Reply #2060 on: December 14, 2019, 02:04:27 PM »
Also, not to be a Debbie Downer, but since we're on the MMM forum, it's probably worth pointing out that all of us spending our way through our good fortune would significantly degrade the planet...   We should have plenty left over for ourselves, even after a recession, to enjoy a high quality of life without ruining our legacy for future generations.

ixtap

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Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
« Reply #2061 on: December 14, 2019, 02:34:27 PM »
OK - The year is rolling to an end.  My stash is high enough for me to survive for many years,..........

I'm looking to hang it up,..........

but,...........

The so-called experts are giving gloom and doom that countries are swimming in a debt swamp and the gators are hungry &
Large corporations are floating in the same swamp like raw meat to feed the gators &
Most of the people of the US are swimming in this swamp oblivious to the foul smell of their debt.

These experts are saying the gators will eat soon and the stock market will come tumbling down.

Is it really more primed to tumble than at any other time?  Isn't it in the best interests of the folks who run things - CEOs, government, the Illuminati, the Council on Foreign Relations, the Banksters, the Cosa Nostra, the CIA, the guys who shot JFK, and the Military Industrial Complex to keep the stock market rolling ahead?

All answers are appreciated.

If everything comes crashing down, how is having worked more years and accumulated more stocks going to help you?

This doomsday scenario seems like a great reason to go out and.do something new with your life before we all go back to be sustenance farmers or hunter gatherers.

StackOfCoins.com

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Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
« Reply #2062 on: December 14, 2019, 03:26:43 PM »
Time flies!! Here's my update:

August 2015: $1.0
April 2018: $2.0
July 2019: $2.8
December 2019: $3.6

What will the markets bring us in 2020?

Thankful this holiday season.  Keep on keeping on!!
« Last Edit: December 14, 2019, 03:28:25 PM by bluerunner »

pecunia

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Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
« Reply #2063 on: December 14, 2019, 04:44:47 PM »

If everything comes crashing down, how is having worked more years and accumulated more stocks going to help you?

This doomsday scenario seems like a great reason to go out and.do something new with your life before we all go back to be sustenance farmers or hunter gatherers.

I don't think it will go that far back.  However, working a little longer may achieve the following:

(1) If the crash comes while I am working, I may have the option to keep working to help weather the storm.  Most recessions last about 18 months
(2)  Working a bit longer helps to accumulate a larger cash reserve which will also help weather the storm.
(3) My health insurance is paid and the longer I work, the less I will have to pay to the blood sucking insurance companies.
(4) This is the most influential reason.  The money I make while working allows me to purchase unnecessary stuff for myself and others while leaving the stash intact.  For example:  It may be mustachian to continue to drive my high mpg beater, but replacement vehicles adorned with gadgets galore beckon me like a moth to a flame.  This does somewhat defeat #2, but it will certainly allow more short term fun.

Now as far as the planet is concerned, I must concede to the wisdom of the late great George Carlin:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7W33HRc1A6c

Bateaux

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Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
« Reply #2064 on: December 14, 2019, 05:15:25 PM »

If everything comes crashing down, how is having worked more years and accumulated more stocks going to help you?

This doomsday scenario seems like a great reason to go out and.do something new with your life before we all go back to be sustenance farmers or hunter gatherers.

I don't think it will go that far back.  However, working a little longer may achieve the following:

(1) If the crash comes while I am working, I may have the option to keep working to help weather the storm.  Most recessions last about 18 months
(2)  Working a bit longer helps to accumulate a larger cash reserve which will also help weather the storm.
(3) My health insurance is paid and the longer I work, the less I will have to pay to the blood sucking insurance companies.
(4) This is the most influential reason.  The money I make while working allows me to purchase unnecessary stuff for myself and others while leaving the stash intact.  For example:  It may be mustachian to continue to drive my high mpg beater, but replacement vehicles adorned with gadgets galore beckon me like a moth to a flame.  This does somewhat defeat #2, but it will certainly allow more short term fun.

Now as far as the planet is concerned, I must concede to the wisdom of the late great George Carlin:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7W33HRc1A6c

I could have written this all myself, Percunia.  I have the same struggle ongoing.   I've been waiting to outlast the recession for years that hasn't come.  Health insurance is a huge worry, since the company pays most of it right now.  I am buying stuff, stuff I've deferred for years while saving.   I have a beater car and truck that I'd like to replace with a fairly new vehicle.  New truck or luxury full size SUV.  Yep, I said luxury.  Yes, more stuff is a greater impact on the planet, hopefully my bicycle gets lots more use soon.  I'm definitely working all of 2020 and will pull the plug only after exhausting 7 weeks of paid time for 2021.  So that's almost March 2021.  Likely I'll work some in-between.  With my schedule, I can take 24 hours vacation every other week and be off the entire week.  That would give me every other week off till sometime in May 2021.  Time will tell.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
« Reply #2065 on: December 14, 2019, 05:27:02 PM »
Now as far as the planet is concerned, I must concede to the wisdom of the late great George Carlin:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7W33HRc1A6c

Unfortunately that did not make me feel much better about all the crap I can buy.  George Carlin in summary, "the planet will be just fine once it gets rid of us."

Bateaux

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Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
« Reply #2066 on: December 14, 2019, 06:01:36 PM »
Now as far as the planet is concerned, I must concede to the wisdom of the late great George Carlin:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7W33HRc1A6c

Unfortunately that did not make me feel much better about all the crap I can buy.  George Carlin in summary, "the planet will be just fine once it gets rid of us."

We're nothing but a bad cold for the planet.  It will cough and sneeze a short time, then dispell the irritation.

itchyfeet

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Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
« Reply #2067 on: December 15, 2019, 02:55:24 AM »
That link was from 2017, but I doubt whether it changed much.  Top five percent.  Wow

My reaction is a little different...., I feel super wealthy. So wealthy I feel I donít need to work. And yet 1 in 20 people has more than me... I find it amazing that there are so many rich people.

DavidAnnArbor

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Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
« Reply #2068 on: December 15, 2019, 10:07:36 AM »
While 1 in 20 might be richer than you they might not have easy access to those assets.
How many of these people are rich because they own non-liquid assets, that are not real estate?
 For example, the wealth represented might include owning a business, artwork, or intellectual property.  It's not that easy to dispose of these assets, and they might not be valued as expected.

itchyfeet

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Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
« Reply #2069 on: December 15, 2019, 10:17:57 AM »
Wealth really takes off in those last few percent too...

Excluding home equity about 25% have negative Net Worth...

At the other end of the scale...
95th percentile =$2.0M ex-home
96th percentile = $2.4M
97th percentile = $3.0M
98th percentile = $5.0M
99th percentile = $9.2M

PhrugalPhan

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Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
« Reply #2070 on: December 15, 2019, 10:40:46 AM »
And the wealth is concentrated in just a few locations around the country.  If I go back home where there are a few hundred homes and compare our (Me & GF) net worth ($2.2 Mil + house + 2 good pensions) to everyone in town I'm sure we are in the top 1%, if not the top number.  Then I look locally (DC area) and we are lucky if we make the top 10%.   Its all relative.

Wealth really takes off in those last few percent too...

Excluding home equity about 25% have negative Net Worth...

At the other end of the scale...
95th percentile =$2.0M ex-home
96th percentile = $2.4M
97th percentile = $3.0M
98th percentile = $5.0M
99th percentile = $9.2M

2sk22

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Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
« Reply #2071 on: December 15, 2019, 12:05:46 PM »
Time flies!! Here's my update:

August 2015: $1.0
April 2018: $2.0
July 2019: $2.8
December 2019: $3.6

What will the markets bring us in 2020?

Thankful this holiday season.  Keep on keeping on!!

Impressive - looks like there's a firehose of money coming into your accounts (in addition to the great appreciation).

flyingaway

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Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
« Reply #2072 on: December 15, 2019, 12:37:19 PM »

I don't think it will go that far back.  However, working a little longer may achieve the following:

(1) If the crash comes while I am working, I may have the option to keep working to help weather the storm.  Most recessions last about 18 months
(2)  Working a bit longer helps to accumulate a larger cash reserve which will also help weather the storm.
(3) My health insurance is paid and the longer I work, the less I will have to pay to the blood sucking insurance companies.
(4) This is the most influential reason.  The money I make while working allows me to purchase unnecessary stuff for myself and others while leaving the stash intact.  For example:  It may be mustachian to continue to drive my high mpg beater, but replacement vehicles adorned with gadgets galore beckon me like a moth to a flame.  This does somewhat defeat #2, but it will certainly allow more short term fun.
 

Every item listed here is a good reason for One More Year. If your job is not killing you, why not. I don't want to buy fancy things, but I do spend money on very expensive activities.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2019, 06:55:48 PM by flyingaway »

Bateaux

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Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
« Reply #2073 on: December 15, 2019, 12:59:59 PM »
That link was from 2017, but I doubt whether it changed much.  Top five percent.  Wow

My reaction is a little different...., I feel super wealthy. So wealthy I feel I donít need to work. And yet 1 in 20 people has more than me... I find it amazing that there are so many rich people.

So being that we're in the top 5 percent of household wealth.  Where in your high school graduating class did you rank?  I think I was top third at best.

SwordGuy

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Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
« Reply #2074 on: December 15, 2019, 01:07:14 PM »
That link was from 2017, but I doubt whether it changed much.  Top five percent.  Wow

My reaction is a little different...., I feel super wealthy. So wealthy I feel I donít need to work. And yet 1 in 20 people has more than me... I find it amazing that there are so many rich people.

So being that we're in the top 5 percent of household wealth.  Where in your high school graduating class did you rank?  I think I was top third at best.

In the top 20 students, that's the best I remember.  "Most Industrious", which puzzled me at the time.   I have zero idea why they tagged me with that at the time.

Bateaux

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Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
« Reply #2075 on: December 15, 2019, 01:43:41 PM »
That link was from 2017, but I doubt whether it changed much.  Top five percent.  Wow

My reaction is a little different...., I feel super wealthy. So wealthy I feel I donít need to work. And yet 1 in 20 people has more than me... I find it amazing that there are so many rich people.

So being that we're in the top 5 percent of household wealth.  Where in your high school graduating class did you rank?  I think I was top third at best.

In the top 20 students, that's the best I remember.  "Most Industrious", which puzzled me at the time.   I have zero idea why they tagged me with that at the time.

Top 20 is pretty good if the class was sizable.   Some of you are pretty sharp, and I'm betting you did pretty good in school.  I'm just wondering how that transfers to wealth building.  Personally, I just followed the advice of smart people.   I come from a tiny town where financial knowledge was a great unknown.  Even in college, I didn't take any financial classes. A Charles Schwab representative put on a one hour class in 1993 at my employer when they were starting up a 401K plan.  I'd been working less than a year at the time.  I approached the representative to apply.  My heart was broken, you couldn't start till after one year of service.   But, I took advantage as soon as possible.  The contribution limits were paltry back then and our match was only 3 percent from the employer.  Still it added up.   MMM has been a great education for me, thank you all.

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Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
« Reply #2076 on: December 15, 2019, 02:06:12 PM »
I calculated once out of curiosity and I was top 10.5% of our high school class. My husband was in the top 10, not 10%, but top 10 individuals (he worked a lot harder than me). I eventually got my act together and went to the same universities as him for similar degrees.

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Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
« Reply #2077 on: December 15, 2019, 02:33:07 PM »
And the wealth is concentrated in just a few locations around the country.  If I go back home where there are a few hundred homes and compare our (Me & GF) net worth ($2.2 Mil + house + 2 good pensions) to everyone in town I'm sure we are in the top 1%, if not the top number.  Then I look locally (DC area) and we are lucky if we make the top 10%.   Its all relative.

That amount has never been in the top 1% except in the smallest of ponds

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Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
« Reply #2078 on: December 15, 2019, 04:11:00 PM »
I calculated once out of curiosity and I was top 10.5% of our high school class. My husband was in the top 10, not 10%, but top 10 individuals (he worked a lot harder than me). I eventually got my act together and went to the same universities as him for similar degrees.

Not completely sure because I didn't care at the time but I expect I was in the bottom 1/3 at best if not quite a bit lower.  Graduated 1/2 year late because I got sick in my senior year and failed some classes.  Dropped out of Community College and a few years later "graduated" from one of those two year for profit private tech schools.  No degree.  Worked hard and built a career.  Did okay, am solidly in this group.

nancyfrank232

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Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
« Reply #2079 on: December 15, 2019, 04:26:50 PM »
People who graduate in the top 1% of their class never become the top 1% in wealth

School is generally useless

ysette9

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Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
« Reply #2080 on: December 15, 2019, 04:40:58 PM »
People who graduate in the top 1% of their class never become the top 1% in wealth

School is generally useless
That is a prettt broad statement to make. Can you back it up? Maybe graduating top of your class isnít enough to make it into the global 1% but Iím sure as heck it translates to higher lifetime income and wealth than being much lower down in a graduating class. Education and income/wealth are absolutely correlated, even if it isnít a straight line.

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Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
« Reply #2081 on: December 15, 2019, 04:43:36 PM »
People who graduate in the top 1% of their class never become the top 1% in wealth

School is generally useless

From Investopedia:

"By 13, he was managing his own business as a paperboy. ... At 16, Buffett enrolled himself in Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania to study business. After two years of complaining that he knew more than his professors, he moved on to the University of Nebraska in Lincoln and finished his degree."

I'm willing to wager that Mr. Buffett was in the top of his high school class.     Gates had a 1590 out of 1600 on his SAT so I'm betting he was up there too.

Good try, but no cigar.

carstenjames

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Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
« Reply #2082 on: December 15, 2019, 04:46:03 PM »
People who graduate in the top 1% of their class never become the top 1% in wealth

School is generally useless

Umm. I graduated first in my class and I'm in the top 1% in wealth. No, I didn't inherit any money -- I worked hard, did well in school, got a high paying job, continued to work hard, and saved.

Not that it will change your opinion but for others who may be lurking here, according to research by the St. Louis Fed your claim that, "School is generally useless" is not true (source: https://research.stlouisfed.org/publications/page1-econ/2017/01/03/education-income-and-wealth/):

EducationPercentage of FamiliesMedian Income (2013)Median Wealth (2013)Wealth-to-income ratio
No High School Diploma12%$22,320$37,7661.43
High School Diploma50%$41,190$95,0722.15
Two- or Four-year degree25%$76,293$273,4883.45
Advanced degree13%$116,265$689,1005.58

In general, getting good grades in school and studying a profession that historically pays well (ie, doctor, engineer, etc.) is the best thing a young person can do to set themselves up for future financial security.


Exflyboy

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Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
« Reply #2083 on: December 15, 2019, 05:15:07 PM »
I graduated 2nd highest from my high school in the UK. My buddy graduated a couple of points higher than me. We were 2 out of 3 kids that made it to University that year.

This was back in the UK where we were still climbing out of the massive debt imposed by WW2. All higher education places were earned by merit.. Good job really because nobody could afford to pay for it!

I feel very fortunate to have made it from post WW2 London to a high tech career in the US..

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Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
« Reply #2084 on: December 15, 2019, 05:21:59 PM »
Hell, I was in a class of my own.  Didn't do so well at school, but after that first bank job, I decided to learn about investing.  When you are in the pen they encourage you to read.  I learned I wasn't so different from the Wall Street boys after all.

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Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
« Reply #2085 on: December 15, 2019, 05:26:19 PM »
Hell, I was in a class of my own.  Didn't do so well at school, but after that first bank job, I decided to learn about investing.  When you are in the pen they encourage you to read.  I learned I wasn't so different from the Wall Street boys after all.

Sounds like you have had an interesting life. Would love to hear more details! Also goes to show that there are many roads to El Dorado!

nancyfrank232

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Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
« Reply #2086 on: December 15, 2019, 06:55:32 PM »
People who graduate in the top 1% of their class never become the top 1% in wealth

School is generally useless

Umm. I graduated first in my class and I'm in the top 1% in wealth. No, I didn't inherit any money -- I worked hard, did well in school, got a high paying job, continued to work hard, and saved.

Not that it will change your opinion but for others who may be lurking here, according to research by the St. Louis Fed your claim that, "School is generally useless" is not true

Also for those who are lurking, income isnít the same as wealth FYI

Nobody who is truly wealthy cites accomplishments in school as a factor in becoming wealthy because they know itís tiny (at best)

And if a personís accomplishments in school were as significant as their financial or Life accomplishments that they need to be mentioned, it indirectly tells you something about their Life accomplishments

Thereís a reason the successful donít cite their school accomplishments; because whatever they are, they pale so badly in comparison to their Life accomplishments that itís embarrassing to bring them up

Like mentioning being student council president in high school after you hit $100 million NW lol
« Last Edit: December 15, 2019, 07:40:20 PM by nancyfrank232 »

nancyfrank232

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Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
« Reply #2087 on: December 15, 2019, 06:59:33 PM »
People who graduate in the top 1% of their class never become the top 1% in wealth

School is generally useless

From Investopedia:

"By 13, he was managing his own business as a paperboy. ... At 16, Buffett enrolled himself in Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania to study business. After two years of complaining that he knew more than his professors, he moved on to the University of Nebraska in Lincoln and finished his degree."

I'm willing to wager that Mr. Buffett was in the top of his high school class.     Gates had a 1590 out of 1600 on his SAT so I'm betting he was up there too.

Good try, but no cigar.

And thereís a reason that both of those individuals have never ever cited their accomplishments in school as being a factor in their success

Good try, but no cigar

SwordGuy

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Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
« Reply #2088 on: December 15, 2019, 08:04:45 PM »
People who graduate in the top 1% of their class never become the top 1% in wealth

School is generally useless

From Investopedia:

"By 13, he was managing his own business as a paperboy. ... At 16, Buffett enrolled himself in Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania to study business. After two years of complaining that he knew more than his professors, he moved on to the University of Nebraska in Lincoln and finished his degree."

I'm willing to wager that Mr. Buffett was in the top of his high school class.     Gates had a 1590 out of 1600 on his SAT so I'm betting he was up there too.

Good try, but no cigar.

And thereís a reason that both of those individuals have never ever cited their accomplishments in school as being a factor in their success

Good try, but no cigar

You've confused "talking about it" with "made a big difference in their life".

The education I got, in a wide variety of subjects, made a big difference in my life.   That knowledge and those skills made a huge difference in my ability to take advantage of the opportunities that presented themselves.    They made a huge difference in my ability to create new opportunities.

No, not that I was on the student council or was a jr civitans club president or on the chess club.   The solid math, science, english, history and shop skills that I learned and mastered in school made a massive difference.   

nancyfrank232

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Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
« Reply #2089 on: December 15, 2019, 09:28:29 PM »
If doing well at school is still a big deal in a personís life, then thatís great for them!

SwordGuy

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Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
« Reply #2090 on: December 15, 2019, 11:28:07 PM »
If doing well at school is still a big deal in a personís life, then thatís great for them!

You aren't listening.    You've got a smug idea and it's interfering with learning something.

We're not talking about doing well at school "being a big deal" like we're proud of winning a touchdown or something.   We're not talking about being some boozy, paunchy and balding ex-football player still pining about our glory days in high school.

We're talking about what we learned in school making a real difference in our success.

I self-taught myself to design databases and program because times were hard, the town I moved to for love was in double-digit unemployment and didn't like strangers, I needed to make a living, I found an opportunity and I ran with it.

Professionally, I've written 1 book and published and/or presented about 80 professional technical articles or papers.
I was invited to speak at technical conferences in four countries and I've been published in 3 countries that I know of.

Generally, to present at major technical conferences, one has to submit an abstract that sells your presentation idea to the conference committee.   There were a number of conferences where they just contacted me and asked me what I wanted to talk about because they assumed if it was worth my time to present it, it was worth their time to learn it.

I've published two different technical publications, been the editor of another, and a contributing editor for two others. 

One US government agency designated me personally as a "unique, sole source provider" of the information that they needed, which meant they did not have put that particular contract out for competitive bidding.

A major international company invented a job for me because they wanted my unique professional skillsets.  I turned them down because my current employer gave me a better deal.   That included sending my wife, daughter and I to Europe for a month, most expenses paid, to write material for them simply because my wife needed to do research for her degree over there.

I wrote most of a report to a commission set up by the US congress on behalf of an entire branch of the US military, and I edited the other 40% of the report.

Oh, yeah, I made a bunch of money and after I learned about MMM, I invested enough to FIRE.

That's a fair bit of professional success.

Those English classes where they taught reading, writing, spelling, grammar and textual analysis?    I paid attention and I learned it!   Plus I did lots of extra reading on top of my assignments.    All that writing I did?   It was a whole lot easier because of it.

Those math classes where they taught arithmetic, trigonometry, and algebra?   I paid attention and learned it.   It was invaluable in my programming work and in business. Ditto with the economics courses.

Those history, sociology, anthropology classes?    I paid attention and learned it.   It gave me a wide range of experience and lots of real-life examples to use when thinking thru "what could happen?" when I was designing a software or business system.   It helped me communicate better with coworkers from other countries and cultures..   

Those political science courses?   I paid attention and learned it.   I got better database design training from Political Science classes than programmers got from computer science classes.    Socrates kicks butt! 

History and Political Science also got me interested in simulations.   Learning complex simulations meant reading complex game rule manuals and then turning those rules into strategies and tactics to win the simulation.    Software language manuals were a cake walk compared to some of the simulations I worked with.

Shop class made it a lot easier for me to renovate real estate property for profit and to keep repair costs on my own home lower than otherwise.

Because I took the time to learn lots of things well, I had a lot of different knowledge and skills I could draw upon to improvise, adapt and overcome whatever difficulties were in front of me.   I don't compartmentalize what I know, I try to use anything useful I've learned in everything I do.   

All those things made it possible for me to succeed and flourish professionally.   

Not because I made an "A" or got inducted into some silly club in high school or college, but because I learned lots of useful
information and I then made use of it.

Lots of people I went to school with never bothered to learn much in school and, after awhile, they lost the skills and willingness to learn.  They lacked the knowledge to recognize opportunities and lacked the habits to take advantage of them anyway.

That's how "what I learned in school" was a major driver of the success I have achieved.

I hope that clears things up.


Bateaux

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Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
« Reply #2091 on: December 16, 2019, 12:07:22 AM »
If doing well at school is still a big deal in a personís life, then thatís great for them!

You aren't listening.    You've got a smug idea and it's interfering with learning something.

We're not talking about doing well at school "being a big deal" like we're proud of winning a touchdown or something.   We're not talking about being some boozy, paunchy and balding ex-football player still pining about our glory days in high school.

We're talking about what we learned in school making a real difference in our success.

I self-taught myself to design databases and program because times were hard, the town I moved to for love was in double-digit unemployment and didn't like strangers, I needed to make a living, I found an opportunity and I ran with it.

Professionally, I've written 1 book and published and/or presented about 80 professional technical articles or papers.
I was invited to speak at technical conferences in four countries and I've been published in 3 countries that I know of.

Generally, to present at major technical conferences, one has to submit an abstract that sells your presentation idea to the conference committee.   There were a number of conferences where they just contacted me and asked me what I wanted to talk about because they assumed if it was worth my time to present it, it was worth their time to learn it.

I've published two different technical publications, been the editor of another, and a contributing editor for two others. 

One US government agency designated me personally as a "unique, sole source provider" of the information that they needed, which meant they did not have put that particular contract out for competitive bidding.

A major international company invented a job for me because they wanted my unique professional skillsets.  I turned them down because my current employer gave me a better deal.   That included sending my wife, daughter and I to Europe for a month, most expenses paid, to write material for them simply because my wife needed to do research for her degree over there.

I wrote most of a report to a commission set up by the US congress on behalf of an entire branch of the US military, and I edited the other 40% of the report.

Oh, yeah, I made a bunch of money and after I learned about MMM, I invested enough to FIRE.

That's a fair bit of professional success.

Those English classes where they taught reading, writing, spelling, grammar and textual analysis?    I paid attention and I learned it!   Plus I did lots of extra reading on top of my assignments.    All that writing I did?   It was a whole lot easier because of it.

Those math classes where they taught arithmetic, trigonometry, and algebra?   I paid attention and learned it.   It was invaluable in my programming work and in business. Ditto with the economics courses.

Those history, sociology, anthropology classes?    I paid attention and learned it.   It gave me a wide range of experience and lots of real-life examples to use when thinking thru "what could happen?" when I was designing a software or business system.   It helped me communicate better with coworkers from other countries and cultures..   

Those political science courses?   I paid attention and learned it.   I got better database design training from Political Science classes than programmers got from computer science classes.    Socrates kicks butt! 

History and Political Science also got me interested in simulations.   Learning complex simulations meant reading complex game rule manuals and then turning those rules into strategies and tactics to win the simulation.    Software language manuals were a cake walk compared to some of the simulations I worked with.

Shop class made it a lot easier for me to renovate real estate property for profit and to keep repair costs on my own home lower than otherwise.

Because I took the time to learn lots of things well, I had a lot of different knowledge and skills I could draw upon to improvise, adapt and overcome whatever difficulties were in front of me.   I don't compartmentalize what I know, I try to use anything useful I've learned in everything I do.   

All those things made it possible for me to succeed and flourish professionally.   

Not because I made an "A" or got inducted into some silly club in high school or college, but because I learned lots of useful
information and I then made use of it.

Lots of people I went to school with never bothered to learn much in school and, after awhile, they lost the skills and willingness to learn.  They lacked the knowledge to recognize opportunities and lacked the habits to take advantage of them anyway.

That's how "what I learned in school" was a major driver of the success I have achieved.

I hope that clears things up.

Hell to the YES!   That is a kick ass flow of life and learning to who you are.  I'm not in your class, but layer upon layer of everything we've learned or done, reenforces the ability to make the right choices.  Maybe that's why we're here and so many of our former peers aren't.   We've won the game, at least as far as our bank accounts show.  But we've never stopped learning, we've never stopped building those powerful layers of knowledge and understanding.  Like I've mentioned previously, I'm not the sharpest tack in the box, certainly not one of the top 5 out of 100.  But, I've always sought the company of those sharp tacks.  Emulation of the successful can also make  you successful.

nancyfrank232

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« Reply #2092 on: December 16, 2019, 06:27:08 AM »
^ I agree. Lifelong learning is very important and a huge contributor to success! Unfortunately the people Iíve learned from never mentioned their class ranking in school
« Last Edit: December 16, 2019, 06:29:06 AM by nancyfrank232 »

SwordGuy

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Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
« Reply #2093 on: December 16, 2019, 06:51:36 AM »
^ I agree. Lifelong learning is very important and a huge contributor to success! Unfortunately the people Iíve learned from never mentioned their class ranking in school
The only time I've mentioned it in the last 44 years is when someone specifically asked for the information a few posts up thread.

That's' because it's not the "class ranking" that matters, it's what the person learned and how they used it that matters.

Plus, the USA has a very definite anti-intellectual bias in its culture, which sadly is in the ascendant.  Bragging about that isn't socially acceptable in most groups.  In contrast, bragging by driving a humongous gas-guzzling truck is socially acceptable.

And, frankly, in any group of people I get to talking to well enough to get a good idea about them and their capabilities, I pretty much know who was really good in school.   There's the occasional late bloomer who got the learning bug later in life, but otherwise, it's pretty obvious.   But there's no reason to know their class ranking because, and this is important, it's their level of knowledge and the ability to apply it that matters, not the number of their fellow students who also happened to take the time and effort to master the same material a tad better.

alienbogey

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Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
« Reply #2094 on: December 16, 2019, 08:32:44 AM »
People who graduate in the top 1% of their class never become the top 1% in wealth

School is generally useless

There have been good replies to this already but I can't help piling on.

The first statement is just ridiculously wrong.  Whenever someone makes a "Never" statement it only takes one example to refute it. 

I graduated number 2 and my wife graduated top 10 from the same high school of 1,500.  (And this is the first time in 20+ years I've mentioned that to anyone.)  We're in the top 1% of wealth.

So, do try not to say that again.

School is generally useless?  Come again?

Maybe for you, I suppose, and if so perhaps because circumstance placed you in a bad school situation, or maybe you were a slacker with a shitty attitude at the time, or something, but if you are truly a member of this group then you had some obstacles to overcome and I congratulate you for doing so.

Two personal anecdotes each from high school and college:

Learning and understanding high school mathematics taught my mind logical discipline.  There's a life skill.  Metal shop taught me how to use a tap and die, which I've used several times in the past month while working on my motorcycle.  That's satisfying.

Economics and finance classes in college taught me lessons that helped put me in the aforementioned 1%.  A Shakespeare class, taken on a whim, gave me a lifelong appreciation for the Bard and the motivation to see many of his plays in everything from humble local community theaters to world class venues.

And that's not even to mention the doors opened, friendships made, fun experiences, not-so-fun experiences, etc, in school.

School's generally useless? 

I'm really having to struggle to remain polite here.  The best I can do is to say that the statement is among the most ridiculous and just plain wrong that I've seen on MMM.









monarda

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Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
« Reply #2095 on: December 16, 2019, 08:57:26 AM »
Passionate educator here. Learned about this thread from the "hall of fame" post by SwordGuy above. (I'm still back around $1M)

As others have chimed in, many who do well in school do indeed well in life. These are the good students who actively participated. I'm going to take a stab at where this anti-intellectualism and anti-school attitude is coming from.

If you go through school with a passive attitude, doing just the minimum you think you need to, you *might* indeed get fairly good grades and standardized test scores. But the ones who take an active role like @SwordGuy are going to be at an advantage, regardless of their grades and rank.

An example- there are some naturally very intelligent people who breeze through without much work. They are going to be limited later in life. I have a couple of these in my family. They have a bad attitude throughout school. There's a feeling of entitlement. And these particular folks ended up stuck and depressed later in life.

Active learning is talked about a LOT these days in edu-speak circles. Most efforts there are lame, but making the process active is key. The anti-intellectualism comes in part from people who just don't want to do the homework, starting early on. "When am I going to USE this??" You don't have to like everything in school. Some of the best students aren't the "A" students.  It's sad to me that so many people make their way through school at all levels (grad programs included) with a passive attitude, just thinking about the money to be made once they hold the degree.  Do it for love. YOLO. 

On other threads here at MMM there are folks yearning for FIRE in high paying jobs they absolutely HATE. That boggles my mind. Why do something you hate? YOLO.

Now, modern curriculum design in school is a whole 'nother issue.

nancyfrank232

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« Reply #2096 on: December 16, 2019, 09:10:47 AM »
^ +1 great commentary. I enjoyed reading this. Thanks for this perspective

My decision to be FI never stemmed from the conventional MMM-hate-my-work mentality. I never understood doing something I hated (for decades) for money. Thereís tons of money around, so I just did what I liked, and did it until I found something else that interested me

Once I realized that all I needed was rudimentary arithmetic and English to become financially free (I might be overestimating this), I didnít care about all the rest. I knew I would be fine. Iíll leave it to those with more passion to tackle the other 99.99999% of topics

Whenever an educator tells my child how important school is for their financial future, I tell my child that their teacher is incorrect and that itís not important for money (if they had money, many wouldnít bother suffering as a teacher), but itís important if they find it interesting. Otherwise, they can just ignore it

I make sure my child knows that everybody is smarter than me and did better in school than me
« Last Edit: December 16, 2019, 09:31:53 AM by nancyfrank232 »

SwordGuy

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Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
« Reply #2097 on: December 16, 2019, 09:57:32 AM »
My decision to be FI never stemmed from the conventional MMM-hate-my-work mentality. I never understood doing something I hated (for decades) for money. Thereís tons of money around, so I just did what I liked, and did it until I found something else that interested me

Well, we're in agreement here.

Once I realized that all I needed was rudimentary arithmetic and English to become financially free (I might be overestimating this), I didnít care about all the rest. I knew I would be fine. Iíll leave it to those with more passion to tackle the other 99.99999% of topics

You are correct that being well educated (or even educated at all) is not a requirement to make a lot of money or build wealth.  That is an absolutely correct statement.

I could also buy a lottery ticket and become a multi-millionaire.    The problem is that the odds of winning the lottery big time are incredibly low.      The odds of making lots of money without a solid education are also much lower than they are with an education.   Someone already posted the correlations between education and income earlier in this thread.   Apparently you did not make the logical connection.

Whenever an educator tells my child how important school is for their financial future, I tell my child that their teacher is incorrect and that itís not important for money (if they had money, many wouldnít bother suffering as a teacher), but itís important if they find it interesting. Otherwise, they can just ignore it

Knowledge is power.  You never know when something that you learned in years past will become important.  That social history I learned in college?  What a waste of time, right?   Yeah, but I also learned about rent strikes as part of that history.   That came in really handy when we lived in an apartment building and the doctor who owned it wouldn't make repairs. (Sure helped our cash flow at the time!)   

Learning about strategies to use in political protests in political science came in handy when we wanted to pressure him to make those repairs, when the rent strike wasn't enough to do it.     My wife borrowed a polaroid camera and took photos of what the bathroom looked like   At the 11 1/2 month mark after the bathroom needed repair, she took those photos to the doctor's office.  She explained to the doctor that in 2 weeks it would be the 1 year anniversary of her bathroom looking like this.   If it wasn't fixed before then, she would be bringing a birthday cake and candles along with the polaroids to hold a birthday party for our bathroom in his lobby with his patients.      Let me tell you, stuff got fixed pronto 'cause we lived in a small town and THAT story would have gotten repeated to EVERYONE.

Since, as you said, you didn't bother to learn in school, so you simply don't know what you might have been able to do to improve your life's trajectory.

So, this would be yet another instance of your anti-education bias being wrong.

I make sure my child knows that everybody is smarter than me and did better in school than me
It's sad when someone gets the facts right and their conclusions are 180 degrees wrong.

You succeeded in spite of your self-imposed limitations.

It's utter foolishness to teach your child to impose limitations on their abilities.   Most children have no real idea what the real world will require of them and therefore what will be truly useful to them over the decades to come.   Those children who do are rarely the children of multi-millionaires.

nancyfrank232

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« Reply #2098 on: December 16, 2019, 10:30:30 AM »
Since, as you said, you didn't bother to learn in school, so you simply don't know what you might have been able to do to improve your life's trajectory.

So, this would be yet another instance of your anti-education bias being wrong.

And this is the arrogance that stems from people who believe that school accomplishments are important

The conclusion could be that a person succeeded despite the indoctrination of formal education

Since your opinion is only that school is important, you werenít able to see this perspective 

It's sad when someone gets the facts right and their conclusions are 180 degrees wrong.

You succeeded in spite of your self-imposed limitations.

Itís sad to see someone who supposedly values education, yet unable to accept an opinion that you are the one who is wrong. I succeeded despite years of misinformation, indoctrination, and school-imposed limitations

It's utter foolishness to teach your child to impose limitations on their abilities.   Most children have no real idea what the real world will require of them and therefore what will be truly useful to them over the decades to come.   Those children who do are rarely the children of multi-millionaires.

Again, this is parroting the arrogance of the education system that not following the system will be limiting to a child

It is beyond your ability to accept the opinion that valuing the school system will be limiting to a child

My child learns more from my accountants, lawyers, property managers, fellow entrepreneurs and investors than they could possibly learn from any teacher that they have or will have

My 8 year old will be accompanying  me to a local meeting of real estate investors and accountants tonight and I guarantee that none of my childís classmates will get any exposure in school of what we discuss
« Last Edit: December 16, 2019, 11:11:20 AM by nancyfrank232 »

itchyfeet

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Re: Race from $2M to $3M.....and beyond!
« Reply #2099 on: December 16, 2019, 10:36:31 AM »
Spirited discussion.

We have certainly all had very different paths to our current success.

I spent my school years sitting in the corner of the back row of class, day dreaming and looking out the window. I cruised through school with minimal effort and minimal engagement. I got ok grades, but probably less than I might have been capable of if I had been pushed a little. Iíll never know.

I never did my homework or studied at night as I was always out with friends or playing sport.

Thankfully, nobody asks for my grades except on this forum. Haha.

But, the competitiveness learned playing sport has been useful in working life, as have the social skills from always having a wide circle of friends. And all that day dreaming, has evolved into an employee with lots of creative solutions to tough problems. Also a valuable learned skill. Maybe it was for the best that I was allowed to daydream my way through school and not learn discipline. I a, not wired that way.

I do feel pretty chuffed that Even though I came from a household with a below average wealth and income and no signs during school that I would build a good career, somehow through some good fortune, a willingness to take risk, and a determination to win, I am now in the top 3-4% of wealth and If I chose to keep working could be in the top 1% well before traditional retirement age.....

..... But after much deliberation and looking out the window I have decided that there is no good reason for me to push myself to save my way to the top 1%..... I will go back to coasting through life.