Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!

[2sk22]

I rolled over my megacorp 401k to an IRA at Fidelity on Friday. I've been investing post-tax at Fidelity for many years so I want to keep things centralized. I've been running with a 60/40 (stock/bond) split  for many years so I decided to continue in that vein. After some dithering, I selected a bunch of index funds, all with very low expense ratios and submitted the buy orders a few minutes ago.

I still have three weeks of vacation left before I join the startup in Brooklyn (they have a water dispenser with 6 optional flavor shots :-). This is the longest break I have taken from work in 28 years and it has truly worked wonders for me. I have been digging through academic papers at fast clip and feeling happier by the day.

[DavidAnnArbor]

Here's an interesting tool to show how your net worth ranks in America

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/08/12/upshot/are-you-rich-where-does-your-net-worth-rank-wealth.html

[Exflyboy]

Here's an interesting tool to show how your net worth ranks in America

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/08/12/upshot/are-you-rich-where-does-your-net-worth-rank-wealth.html

Danm!.. Its says I'm not rich!...:)

[Dicey]

"Yes, you might be rich." Thanks, MMM.

[EscapeVelocity2020]

Here's an interesting tool to show how your net worth ranks in America

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/08/12/upshot/are-you-rich-where-does-your-net-worth-rank-wealth.html

Danm!.. Its says I'm not rich!...:)

I think we should round up the pitch forks and torches and come after you!  Or maybe have our servants do it for us

[Exflyboy]

Here's an interesting tool to show how your net worth ranks in America

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/08/12/upshot/are-you-rich-where-does-your-net-worth-rank-wealth.html

Danm!.. Its says I'm not rich!...:)

I think we should round up the pitch forks and torches and come after you!  Or maybe have our servants do it for us

I should go back to work.. If I kept working I would probably be "rich" right now..:)

[Dicey]

Here's an interesting tool to show how your net worth ranks in America

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/08/12/upshot/are-you-rich-where-does-your-net-worth-rank-wealth.html

Danm!.. Its says I'm not rich!...:)

I think we should round up the pitch forks and torches and come after you!  Or maybe have our servants do it for us

I should go back to work.. If I kept working I would probably be "rich" right now..:)

Frank, did you move the marker over far enough? For this purpose, I'm sure it's okay to include home equity. Sheesh...not rich my ass.

[2sk22]

For a variety of reasons, I am seriously contemplating shifting to a rising equity glidepath, as discussed by Kitces in this article:

https://www.kitces.com/blog/should-equity-exposure-decrease-in-retirement-or-is-a-rising-equity-glidepath-actually-better/

Basically what this seems to do is ensure that your initial stash is not hit by SORR early on in your FIRE journey.  You may lose out on some returns early on if the markets continue to rise, but you also mitigate your risk substantially.

Wondering if anyone else is using this strategy.

That has been my plan up until a week ago when I got the Living Off Your Money book by this guy McClung. It is a beast of a textbook with massive amounts of simulations and data to back up his recommendations.

In a nutshell he goes through a bunch of asset allocation strategies as well as drawdown strategies and while the reverse equities glidepath is decent (better than annual rebalancing of a static AA), it isn’t as good as the best strategies he recommends.

I’m only halfway through the book and find it immensely valuable. I’d love a virtual book club if anyone else is interested and wants to toss ideas around with me.

I just got this book and I've started reading it. I've only read the first couple of chapters so far but I'm already liking this book. I love how precisely he presents the ontology of the domain. This book is definitely going to be my bedtime reading for a while!

[Exflyboy]

Here's an interesting tool to show how your net worth ranks in America

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/08/12/upshot/are-you-rich-where-does-your-net-worth-rank-wealth.html

Danm!.. Its says I'm not rich!...:)

I think we should round up the pitch forks and torches and come after you!  Or maybe have our servants do it for us

I should go back to work.. If I kept working I would probably be "rich" right now..:)

Frank, did you move the marker over far enough? For this purpose, I'm sure it's okay to include home equity. Sheesh...not rich my ass.

Says I'm just "comfortable".

Rich is the top 1% right?...;)

[2sk22]

Love this overview diagram

[ysette9]

For a variety of reasons, I am seriously contemplating shifting to a rising equity glidepath, as discussed by Kitces in this article:

https://www.kitces.com/blog/should-equity-exposure-decrease-in-retirement-or-is-a-rising-equity-glidepath-actually-better/

Basically what this seems to do is ensure that your initial stash is not hit by SORR early on in your FIRE journey.  You may lose out on some returns early on if the markets continue to rise, but you also mitigate your risk substantially.

Wondering if anyone else is using this strategy.

That has been my plan up until a week ago when I got the Living Off Your Money book by this guy McClung. It is a beast of a textbook with massive amounts of simulations and data to back up his recommendations.

In a nutshell he goes through a bunch of asset allocation strategies as well as drawdown strategies and while the reverse equities glidepath is decent (better than annual rebalancing of a static AA), it isn’t as good as the best strategies he recommends.

I’m only halfway through the book and find it immensely valuable. I’d love a virtual book club if anyone else is interested and wants to toss ideas around with me.

I just got this book and I've started reading it. I've only read the first couple of chapters so far but I'm already liking this book. I love how precisely he presents the ontology of the domain. This book is definitely going to be my bedtime reading for a while!

Let’s compare notes as you go along. I made it about half way through and then lost steam due to sleeping poorly and work exploding and now I added a brand-new baby to the mix. So the will is there but the way may be missing for a bit longer. It definitely takes some quality brain space for processing but I feel this is the most meaningful book for impact in my life that I’ve picked up in a while.

[ysette9]

Love this overview diagram

I like spelling out the difference between known and speculative risks, and how to meaningfully deal with each. I feel humans do a bad job of risk assessment and mitigation overall, and the topic of safe withdrawal rates raises fears and speculative risk discussions quite often.

[Bateaux]

Here's an interesting tool to show how your net worth ranks in America

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/08/12/upshot/are-you-rich-where-does-your-net-worth-rank-wealth.html

95 percentile.   Says I'm rich, I'm not rich yet.  I'm well on the way, just not quite yet.

[2Birds1Stone]

Awfully quiet in here today, y'all. Can we commiserate on how many months of living expenses everyone lost this week?

[Dicey]

Awfully quiet in here today, y'all. Can we commiserate on how many months of living expenses everyone lost this week?

Wha-wha-what? "We" lost money this week? The stock market is down? Huh. Too busy living a kick-ass life to notice.

[DavidAnnArbor]

Bad government policies = bad stock market.

[desk_jockey]

Dropping out of this thread for a while.  I'll be back eventually.  Will see some of you in the thread below in the meantime.  All the best. 

[soccerluvof4]

Here's an interesting tool to show how your net worth ranks in America

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/08/12/upshot/are-you-rich-where-does-your-net-worth-rank-wealth.html

95 percentile.   Says I'm rich, I'm not rich yet.  I'm well on the way, just not quite yet.
[/quote




Interesting. It really depends on what you click you think is rich. If i put having wealth of top 5% I am not. If I click having the money of the top 10% I am. But I dont consider myself rich anyhow. By todays standards I would say 10M and more would be "rich" and maybe even more. I was also surprise how big the numbers dropped at the top.

[BeanCounter]

I'm not looking. I'm just going to keep working my plan of 9mo months to stash some cash and then I'm out. And if things are still rough then I'M REALLY NOT GOING TO LOOK BEFORE I QUIT.

[PhrugalPhan]

Here's an interesting tool to show how your net worth ranks in America

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/08/12/upshot/are-you-rich-where-does-your-net-worth-rank-wealth.html

At first that wasn't saying I was even close to rich.  Then I realized I needed to add in my house but I was still far away.  Then I saw it was for a household, so I added in my GF's numbers and got closer.  Then I figured I should try to add in both our pensions and my household is now on the verge of rich.  Dayum.

I don't feel even close to rich, then I remembered the last two weeks.  I was visiting relatives back home in the MCOL area and there was no way I was going to talk about our finances with anybody.  I knew there was no way I could talk about my finances without coming across as bragging big time.  Maybe that's when you should call yourself rich - when you are afraid to tell anyone how much you have put together.    They know my finances are ok, but just a vague idea.

[Dicey]

Dropping out of this thread for a while.  I'll be back eventually.  Will see some of you in the thread below in the meantime.  All the best.

Aw, don't go. I think iit's important to realize the stock market always ebbs and flows. You may have dipped below the line, but even if you do nothing, you will be over it again soon. Maybe especially if you do nothing.

[2sk22]

coming across as bragging big time.  Maybe that's when you should call yourself rich - when you are afraid to tell anyone how much you have put together.    They know my finances are ok, but just a vague idea.

I really like this definition of "rich"! I also don't dare tell anyone in my family (other than my wife of course) what our net worth is. I think my mother (who is a very sharp observer) suspects its fairly high but has never asked me directly - thankfully, my parents are pretty well off too.

[Exflyboy]

I'll happily tell my folks how much we have. They are not wealthy but would be pleased for me and would never ask for help even if they needed it.

DW's family?.. No way.. The hand would come out so fast it would be blinding!

[desk_jockey]

Dropping out of this thread for a while.  I'll be back eventually.  Will see some of you in the thread below in the meantime.  All the best.

Aw, don't go. I think iit's important to realize the stock market always ebbs and flows. You may have dipped below the line, but even if you do nothing, you will be over it again soon. Maybe especially if you do nothing.

I'm not going far, just down to the $1M-$2M race.  Not planning to do anything brash, my entire reaction was limited to a few quick swear words and two posts on this forum.

[Bateaux]

Dropping out of this thread for a while.  I'll be back eventually.  Will see some of you in the thread below in the meantime.  All the best.

Aw, don't go. I think iit's important to realize the stock market always ebbs and flows. You may have dipped below the line, but even if you do nothing, you will be over it again soon. Maybe especially if you do nothing.

I'm not going far, just down to the $1M-$2M race.  Not planning to do anything brash, my entire reaction was limited to a few quick swear words and two posts on this forum.

[/i]

Have you read our posts? 

[desk_jockey]

Have you read our posts?

Yes, more that a few. I don't post much but I've been on the forums for a while.  Responding to Dicey's concerns, I confirm I'm doing nothing. 

[Bateaux]

Have you read our posts?

Yes, more that a few. I don't post much but I've been on the forums for a while.  Responding to Dicey's concerns, I confirm I'm doing nothing.

We want ya to stick around.  Aspiring to belong to the 2 to 3 shoukd be good enough.

[pecunia]

Will you guys kick someone out if they go beyond three?  Or do these folks get to look back at you as just folks left back along the long trail?  It does say beyond.

You know - I'd like to get to the great beyond some day. 

[EscapeVelocity2020]

Will you guys kick someone out if they go beyond three?  Or do these folks get to look back at you as just folks left back along the long trail?  It does say beyond.

You know - I'd like to get to the great beyond some day.

Was already discussed way back here.

[pecunia]

Quite positive too - I do have a chance to pass through to the great beyond.  If a man broke 25 years ago can do it, why not?

[2sk22]

Will you guys kick someone out if they go beyond three?  Or do these folks get to look back at you as just folks left back along the long trail?  It does say beyond.

You know - I'd like to get to the great beyond some day.

Was already discussed way back here.

Looking at these older postings, I am beginning to realize that, in my household, we have Boglehead numbers but are mostly Mustachian in our attitudes.

In fact, looking at these "Interviews with millionaires" (https://esimoney.com/category/millionaires/) only a few have a higher NW than what I calculated recently. We just don't feel it however - here in the New Jersey suburbs of New York, it feels as if everyone seems to be at the same level as us or perhaps much higher.

[Exflyboy]

Will you guys kick someone out if they go beyond three?  Or do these folks get to look back at you as just folks left back along the long trail?  It does say beyond.

You know - I'd like to get to the great beyond some day.

Was already discussed way back here.

Looking at these older postings, I am beginning to realize that, in my household, we have Boglehead numbers but are mostly Mustachian in our attitudes.

In fact, looking at these "Interviews with millionaires" (https://esimoney.com/category/millionaires/) only a few have a higher NW than what I calculated recently. We just don't feel it however - here in the New Jersey suburbs of New York, it feels as if everyone seems to be at the same level as us or perhaps much higher.

Is that because folks have the "appearance" of wealth where you live?

Out here in Oregon there is often very few outward signs that people are wealthy.. In fact if anyone appears wealthy its usually a sign they are up to their eyeballs in debt!

[2sk22]

Is that because folks have the "appearance" of wealth where you live?

Out here in Oregon there is often very few outward signs that people are wealthy.. In fact if anyone appears wealthy its usually a sign they are up to their eyeballs in debt!

There's a lot external evidence of wealth around here:

• Regular malls may be shutting down all over the country but a small mall specializing in luxury goods (Hackensack Square) has actually been expanding.
• A Lamborghini dealership opened recently near the Trader Joe's where I shop in Paramus. The Ferrari dealer in Englewood Cliffs has expanded their showroom.
• New luxury apartments coming up in Edgewater overlooking New York.
• Looking at Zillow, I see homes in Tenafly with property taxes of $35000 per year - and yet no shortage of buyers. At some point the new tax law is surely going to have an impact but not yet I guess.

[Car Jack]

Will you guys kick someone out if they go beyond three?  Or do these folks get to look back at you as just folks left back along the long trail?  It does say beyond.

You know - I'd like to get to the great beyond some day.

You can check out anytime you like...

But you can never leave...

(Don Felder/Joe Walsh solo begins)

[soccerluvof4]

Is that because folks have the "appearance" of wealth where you live?

Out here in Oregon there is often very few outward signs that people are wealthy.. In fact if anyone appears wealthy its usually a sign they are up to their eyeballs in debt!

There's a lot external evidence of wealth around here:

• Regular malls may be shutting down all over the country but a small mall specializing in luxury goods (Hackensack Square) has actually been expanding.
• A Lamborghini dealership opened recently near the Trader Joe's where I shop in Paramus. The Ferrari dealer in Englewood Cliffs has expanded their showroom.
• New luxury apartments coming up in Edgewater overlooking New York.
• Looking at Zillow, I see homes in Tenafly with property taxes of $35000 per year - and yet no shortage of buyers. At some point the new tax law is surely going to have an impact but not yet I guess.

This is what is happening in our are alot. Big malls going out and Fancier Boutique type malls with tons of apartments being built on top of them. Were outside of Milwaukee in the Burbs and there are two like this with in 5 minutes of us. One is called the Corners. Also has a smaller theater inside. I know there are several in all the adjoining burbs all around the city and the big mall that was downtown is now been bought out and is being turned into the same type of thing.

[JoJoP]

Quite positive too - I do have a chance to pass through to the great beyond.  If a man broke 25 years ago can do it, why not?

Hey, it's fun to see a link to one of my earliest postings on MMM.   I found this site to be in keeping with my financial attitudes and I've been here ever since.   But, just for the record, it's WO-man.   Yup, I was broke 25 years ago and now...I'm beyond and beyond that.  I mentioned this upthread because I'm so shocked, but my retirement calculator says I'll die with 14M with average returns. 

Our strategy was to buy investments (real estate), we had about 4 or so properties 25 years ago, including an apartment building, and we were scrambling to keep up with all the mortgage payments we had.  The RE market was depressed for so long it seemed it would never rebound, but we kept up with it.  I only wish I hadn't sold ANYTHING.  The apartments were sold at a break even (we tried to give them away for the existing loans, no takers!), and now worth 400-500K, cash flowing 4-5000K a month,  and would have been paid off years ago.  Darn that broken crystal ball! 

[Exflyboy]

Hehe.. Sounds like we should have a new category.... "Beyond beyond"...:)

[Dicey]

Hehe.. Sounds like we should have a new category.... "Beyond beyond"...:)

I vote no. As I'm pretty sure @arebelspy would say, anyone who works long enough to amass that much is doing it wrong. It's about buying your life back asap, isn't it?

[Exflyboy]

Hehe.. Sounds like we should have a new category.... "Beyond beyond"...:)

I vote no. As I'm pretty sure @arebelspy would say, anyone who works long enough to amass that much is doing it wrong. It's about buying your life back asap, isn't it?

And be richy rich McRich!...;)

[ysette9]

My husband was telling me yesterday that he saw his latest performance review and was unhappy and disappointed with the rating. He is struggling between being upset for ego reasons and then logically reminding himself that he doesn’t care and is taking a mental step away from the idea of work and career. In some ways I can relate because I got used to being this stellar employee at my old company and now I’m struggling to do the basics and getting feedback from my boss on where I am falling short. Pulling up out spreadsheet that says we are 94% of the way does a tremendous amount to put our angst about work performance into perspective.

[Exflyboy]

My husband was telling me yesterday that he saw his latest performance review and was unhappy and disappointed with the rating. He is struggling between being upset for ego reasons and then logically reminding himself that he doesn’t care and is taking a mental step away from the idea of work and career. In some ways I can relate because I got used to being this stellar employee at my old company and now I’m struggling to do the basics and getting feedback from my boss on where I am falling short. Pulling up out spreadsheet that says we are 94% of the way does a tremendous amount to put our angst about work performance into perspective.

Exactly! I am sure there are many of us that put their heart and soul into being the very best professional they can be. I was a kickass Mechanical engineer (and deeply humble!) and subsequent manager, coach mentor etc.

Then 10 years ago the politics started and they were trying to get me to leave on the cheap. They demoted me and promoted my colleague into my place.

It turns out the primary motivation was I was too expensive.

It takes a while to get into "FU" mode and realise its all a game. At the time this was deeply humiliating and set off one of my worse bouts of depression I'd ever had.

Now I'm FIRE'd and I dgaf.. But getting from there to here was an arduous journey for sure.

Oh I didn't leave but took a severence package about 4 years later which I immediately invested. Today that package is responsible for about 10% of our liquid networth!

[ysette9]

Maybe there is a tendency for people like us to want to succeed and make others happy and generally follow the straight-and narrow? So coming to terms with a demotion or not being the stellar employee is tough mental work. I’m glad you got there and awesome that the severance ended up being such a good sum.

[Exflyboy]

Maybe there is a tendency for people like us to want to succeed and make others happy and generally follow the straight-and narrow? So coming to terms with a demotion or not being the stellar employee is tough mental work. I’m glad you got there and awesome that the severance ended up being such a good sum.

Straight and narrow...I'm sure thats the way I'm naturally wired. But look at the fabulously successful people.. Honestly most of them I know are asshole narcissists! "Its all about me.. waah waah waah".

Honestly it wasn't until I started getting pretty darned militant that I started pulling more $$.

Of course not needing a job helps one negotiate and put to one side the "honour" of being considered for your crappy job that YOU desperately need ME for.

I honestly hated this version of myself but it turned into me negotiating an 80% increase in pay and paid hourly thankyou very much.

I'm much softer and happier now I don't work..;)

[ysette9]

An 80% increase in lay is nothing to sneeze at.

As a kid I remember my father had two very distinct modes: work mode and home mode. Sometimes it would take him a bit to switch out of work mode when he first walked in the door and it was really weird seeing this focused, driven, riled-up person in place of my usual relaxed and goofy daddy. Makes me wonder how much of work I bring home without realizing it.

[Bateaux]

I too was once the stellar employee.  FU money screwed that up.  I really quit giving a crap a few years ago.  Amazingly, that was nearly a million dollars ago.

I must say I'm much less productive since adoption of frugality.  I was always spending money on home improvement and doing projects before realizing the cost vs return just wasn't there.  When I had big bills coming in from spending I new fact in the face I had to bust azz at work to keep the money flowing.  Now with FU-Money I could give a rat's azz what my boss thinks.   I contribute minimally at work now.  Just well enough not to get fired.

[2sk22]

My husband was telling me yesterday that he saw his latest performance review and was unhappy and disappointed with the rating. He is struggling between being upset for ego reasons and then logically reminding himself that he doesn’t care and is taking a mental step away from the idea of work and career.

Then 10 years ago the politics started and they were trying to get me to leave on the cheap. They demoted me and promoted my colleague into my place.

It turns out the primary motivation was I was too expensive.

I think you both have hit upon a very common situation - this is almost exactly what happened to me.

I kept getting increasingly manipulated into taking on ownership of the dullest parts of our product and then getting dinged for not being innovative enough. The tipping point came in 2018 - despite being given an extraordinarily dull assignment, I was somehow able to extract some interesting nuggets from it and (using my years of experience) fixed one of the worst parts of our product. And filed three patents about the solution I came up with!

I practically walked on water and was told, in effect, "looks like you can't swim" :-)

[pecunia]

Looks like a bit of a trend.  Management was attempting to maximize the tools and its disposal and simultaneously disregarding or forgetting that they were also human beings.

[BeanCounter]

I needed to read this this morning guys. It's so bad. 39 weeks to go....

FI and my decision to RE in May 2020 is causing me to pull back. It's so hard to do much more than what is required of me. No fire. No desire. I'm just done. Meanwhile they hired a whiz kid who is running circles around me. He stole my direct report. He gets invited to all the important meetings with the big shots. They are all impressed with him because he's a smart kid who has the desire to read all the CMS regs in his free time, and kiss lots of ass when he's in the office. Me, not so much. I was once him but now I'm just a 40 something year old mom who's mind is really at home about 75% of the time, but I've got 20 years of experience. Sometimes I care. Sometimes I feel so depressed as I feel like I'm watching it slip away. Last night I cried when I got home. But yet I have no, zero, absolutely no desire to fight for the work and the recognition. I hate big office politics.
Sometimes I worry that they might be trying to get to a position where they can lay me off. Where they don't need me as a SME. I'm fairly expensive. Obviously I don't care about that, other than it would really hurt my ego.

Not sure what to do. My DH says keep going to May. Do the minimum required but do good work. Try not to care. Collect your bonus and GTFO.

Sorry that was an emotional brain dump.

[JoJoP]

I needed to read this this morning guys. It's so bad. 39 weeks to go....

FI and my decision to RE in May 2020 is causing me to pull back. It's so hard to do much more than what is required of me. No fire. No desire. I'm just done. Meanwhile they hired a whiz kid who is running circles around me. He stole my direct report. He gets invited to all the important meetings with the big shots. They are all impressed with him because he's a smart kid who has the desire to read all the CMS regs in his free time, and kiss lots of ass when he's in the office. Me, not so much. I was once him but now I'm just a 40 something year old mom who's mind is really at home about 75% of the time, but I've got 20 years of experience. Sometimes I care. Sometimes I feel so depressed as I feel like I'm watching it slip away. Last night I cried when I got home. But yet I have no, zero, absolutely no desire to fight for the work and the recognition. I hate big office politics.
Sometimes I worry that they might be trying to get to a position where they can lay me off. Where they don't need me as a SME. I'm fairly expensive. Obviously I don't care about that, other than it would really hurt my ego.

Not sure what to do. My DH says keep going to May. Do the minimum required but do good work. Try not to care. Collect your bonus and GTFO.

Sorry that was an emotional brain dump.

Why May?  This sounds awful.

[Exflyboy]

No need to be sorry @BeanCounter. Thats what we are here for. To separate the facts/figures from the emotional part of the FIRE process would be ludicrous!

When you go the $$ part sorted (which it sounds like you have) the rest of it is all about feelings! Asking a male engineer about something called "feelings" is worse than asking him to saw his own leg off!

But emotions are real.

I get it.. in the last three months of getting up at 4:30am to make an 80 mile drive to the office I felt physically sick!

Believe me we been there..:)