Author Topic: Intermediate Strength  (Read 26464 times)

Le Barbu

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Re: Intermediate Strength
« Reply #50 on: September 14, 2015, 08:04:34 AM »
When you bench with security bars, how do you set the height? I mean, the proper dept when benching is the bar must touch the chest, but it's damn close to the height where I want the bar to stop when I fail...The difference is about 1 inch. If the form is not perfect and one end of the bar touches the safety bar, doesnt this bother you? Do you get use to this and then correct the form? My rack is not completely done but I was just trying to figure this out.
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Jeremy E.

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Re: Intermediate Strength
« Reply #51 on: September 14, 2015, 01:19:47 PM »
When you bench with security bars, how do you set the height? I mean, the proper dept when benching is the bar must touch the chest, but it's damn close to the height where I want the bar to stop when I fail...The difference is about 1 inch. If the form is not perfect and one end of the bar touches the safety bar, doesnt this bother you? Do you get use to this and then correct the form? My rack is not completely done but I was just trying to figure this out.
Personally, I don't use the security bars, and instead don't put the collars on the bar when I'm benching, if I fail I tilt the bar to the side and let the weights slide off. It works for me, but it seems to be frowned upon by some people. I think this only works because I am pretty stable when benching, it doesn't work when I'm squatting, I put the safety catch bars in when I'm squatting.

GuitarStv

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Re: Intermediate Strength
« Reply #52 on: September 14, 2015, 03:40:06 PM »
I set the safeties so that the bar can go a little below the top of my chest while holding a deep breath.  This way if you're a little bit shaky at the bottom of the lift you don't bounce off the safety (which I find annoying and totally breaks my concentration).  When set up like this, after a fail I can breathe out and just barely get out from under the bar.

Jeremy E.

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Re: Intermediate Strength
« Reply #53 on: September 14, 2015, 04:32:04 PM »
I set the safeties so that the bar can go a little below the top of my chest while holding a deep breath.  This way if you're a little bit shaky at the bottom of the lift you don't bounce off the safety (which I find annoying and totally breaks my concentration).  When set up like this, after a fail I can breathe out and just barely get out from under the bar.
I personally have a shitty power rack with 3" gaps between holes, so for me I had to come up with another solution.

GuitarStv

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Re: Intermediate Strength
« Reply #54 on: September 14, 2015, 05:30:18 PM »
I have an adjustable saw horse, and if I want fine adjustment I screw some wood shims into the top.  :P

Le Barbu

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Re: Intermediate Strength
« Reply #55 on: September 17, 2015, 11:52:24 AM »
I started to fail some rep at press and bench-press. It may look like this: 5x3x157.5lb is cleared, I attempt for 5x3x160lb and this is what happen 1-1-1-1-1, 1-1-1-1-1, 1-1-1-x-x

I fail in the last set at 3rd, 4th or 5th rep. Sometime because a lack of concentration/technique, exhausted or lack of strength. Next training day I clear the 160lb and move on. I feel like the reps I missed did not contribute to my improvement at all. Would it be better to keep the last weight I cleared for a few more training before to move on at this stage?
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mrteacher

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Re: Intermediate Strength
« Reply #56 on: September 17, 2015, 12:27:10 PM »
Replying to follow, and to join the discussion!

I've tried several different routines/lifting programs over the past few years (2 stints with stronglifts, bodyweight stuff, etc).

I got into Crossfit a year or two ago. I don't belong to a Crossfit gym, nor do I think I am better than you because I do Crossfit. I simply think it's the best workout for me: I sweat a ton each time, get to mix high weight low rep olympic lifts with gymnastic movements and traditional cardio. It's as well rounded as I think I can get. I've become stronger, more agile, and gained increased body control.

That being said, I have trouble really bulking up, I think as a result of my body type. I'm 6'0" 175ish, and haven't been able to maintain a 180+ bodyweight. My numbers are solid (probably intermediate?), I think, for my weight: 225 power clean, 350 deadlift, 225 bench (1 rep maxes), but in terms of 'bulking,' I am fighting genes. I also eat pretty clean: veggies, meat, fruit, nuts, eggs, and minimal starchy cards or processed foods.

Anyway, this thread seems to be a cool place to discuss fitness, and especially weightlifting!

Le Barbu

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Re: Intermediate Strength
« Reply #57 on: September 17, 2015, 12:38:02 PM »
@mrteacher, welcome to this thread! Your 1RM are strong! I think we may fight with the same kind of genetic/body type. I never trained with heavy weights before, I'm 43 and doing Starting Strenght for about 2 months now. I was in good general shape, mostly because of MTB. I gained 3-5lb (only) even if I eat a lot more than before. Now I sit at 178lb for 1 week, we'll see the result over time.
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Jeremy E.

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Re: Intermediate Strength
« Reply #58 on: September 17, 2015, 12:47:33 PM »
I started to fail some rep at press and bench-press. It may look like this: 5x3x157.5lb is cleared, I attempt for 5x3x160lb and this is what happen 1-1-1-1-1, 1-1-1-1-1, 1-1-1-x-x

I fail in the last set at 3rd, 4th or 5th rep. Sometime because a lack of concentration/technique, exhausted or lack of strength. Next training day I clear the 160lb and move on. I feel like the reps I missed did not contribute to my improvement at all. Would it be better to keep the last weight I cleared for a few more training before to move on at this stage?
I don't remember it off the top of my head, but the starting strength book tells you what to do if you fail, you should skim the book and figure out where Mr. Rippetoe talks about it and do what he says.

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Re: Intermediate Strength
« Reply #59 on: September 17, 2015, 12:50:04 PM »
Replying to follow, and to join the discussion!

I've tried several different routines/lifting programs over the past few years (2 stints with stronglifts, bodyweight stuff, etc).

I got into Crossfit a year or two ago. I don't belong to a Crossfit gym, nor do I think I am better than you because I do Crossfit. I simply think it's the best workout for me: I sweat a ton each time, get to mix high weight low rep olympic lifts with gymnastic movements and traditional cardio. It's as well rounded as I think I can get. I've become stronger, more agile, and gained increased body control.

That being said, I have trouble really bulking up, I think as a result of my body type. I'm 6'0" 175ish, and haven't been able to maintain a 180+ bodyweight. My numbers are solid (probably intermediate?), I think, for my weight: 225 power clean, 350 deadlift, 225 bench (1 rep maxes), but in terms of 'bulking,' I am fighting genes. I also eat pretty clean: veggies, meat, fruit, nuts, eggs, and minimal starchy cards or processed foods.

Anyway, this thread seems to be a cool place to discuss fitness, and especially weightlifting!

@mrteacher, welcome to this thread! Your 1RM are strong! I think we may fight with the same kind of genetic/body type. I never trained with heavy weights before, I'm 43 and doing Starting Strenght for about 2 months now. I was in good general shape, mostly because of MTB. I gained 3-5lb (only) even if I eat a lot more than before. Now I sit at 178lb for 1 week, we'll see the result over time.

I've found the best ways to bulk are,
1. Drink a gallon of whole milk every day
2. Lots of PB&Js
3. Oatmeal mixed with peanut butter and nutella

TRBeck

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Re: Intermediate Strength
« Reply #60 on: September 17, 2015, 01:03:58 PM »
If you're doing CrossFit and having trouble putting on weight (not surprising) and you're eating few carbs and having trouble putting on weight (not surprising), try this:

1. Stop doing CrossFit and get a copy of Mass Made Simple.
2. Lift and Eat as prescribed in the book.

I'm not a CrossFit hater, but it's not a method for bulking up. Likewise, I usually eat the way you are describing to maintain or lose weight. You can go back to CrossFit after you bulk up where you want to be, and provided you don't cut calories too much, you will maintain your muscular gains as you lean out.

Enjoy the PB sandwiches!

Jon_Snow

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Re: Intermediate Strength
« Reply #61 on: September 17, 2015, 01:06:07 PM »
Interesting thread for sure, but not sure what I can take from it. I'm really more in the camp of trying to "look good on the beach" (vain I know) than trying to get strong. I'm kind of a tall, gangly guy(6,4", 190 pounds), so I don't think this power lifting stuff would be all that beneficial. Wouldn't rule it out though...following this thread with interest. Keep it up.

GuitarStv

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Re: Intermediate Strength
« Reply #62 on: September 17, 2015, 01:35:57 PM »
I started to fail some rep at press and bench-press. It may look like this: 5x3x157.5lb is cleared, I attempt for 5x3x160lb and this is what happen 1-1-1-1-1, 1-1-1-1-1, 1-1-1-x-x

I fail in the last set at 3rd, 4th or 5th rep. Sometime because a lack of concentration/technique, exhausted or lack of strength. Next training day I clear the 160lb and move on. I feel like the reps I missed did not contribute to my improvement at all. Would it be better to keep the last weight I cleared for a few more training before to move on at this stage?

There are a few things you can try:

1 - Are you timing your rest periods?  You absolutely should.  As you lift heavier, you will need longer breaks between sets.  You might feel fine, and jump up to do your next set, but then fail because your muscles are too tired.  You may just be failing because your muscles are strong enough to lift heavy enough to get really tired.  I find that between 2-6 minutes between each work set is ideal.

2 - How is your eating and sleeping?  Both are very important.  You need to be taking in more calories than you're burning to build muscle.

3 - If you've hit this wall a couple weeks in a row, deload and work your way back up.  Deload by moving your working weight down to 90% of the current amount (this would be about 145 lbs).  After a deload you should feel like the weight is easy to handle.  You should reduce your rest breaks slightly.  You should regularly and slowly build back up to 160 over a few weeks.  Everyone's form goes to shit when they are lifting at their hardest, so use this time to really focus on getting the motion down perfectly.

Le Barbu

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Re: Intermediate Strength
« Reply #63 on: September 17, 2015, 01:53:42 PM »
I started to fail some rep at press and bench-press. It may look like this: 5x3x157.5lb is cleared, I attempt for 5x3x160lb and this is what happen 1-1-1-1-1, 1-1-1-1-1, 1-1-1-x-x

I fail in the last set at 3rd, 4th or 5th rep. Sometime because a lack of concentration/technique, exhausted or lack of strength. Next training day I clear the 160lb and move on. I feel like the reps I missed did not contribute to my improvement at all. Would it be better to keep the last weight I cleared for a few more training before to move on at this stage?

There are a few things you can try:

1 - Are you timing your rest periods?  You absolutely should.  As you lift heavier, you will need longer breaks between sets.  You might feel fine, and jump up to do your next set, but then fail because your muscles are too tired.  You may just be failing because your muscles are strong enough to lift heavy enough to get really tired.  I find that between 2-6 minutes between each work set is ideal. I time my rest accuratly for the exercises that I may fail (5-8 minutes) for the other one, I dont time but try to rest 3-5 on average.

2 - How is your eating and sleeping?  Both are very important.  You need to be taking in more calories than you're burning to build muscle. Sleep: all I can sleep is 8h/night (family, work, random reasons) tough I never get a shitty sleep but still...Eating: I will work on that!

3 - If you've hit this wall a couple weeks in a row, deload and work your way back up.  Deload by moving your working weight down to 90% of the current amount (this would be about 145 lbs).  After a deload you should feel like the weight is easy to handle.  You should reduce your rest breaks slightly.  You should regularly and slowly build back up to 160 over a few weeks. Everyone's form goes to shit when they are lifting at their hardest, so use this time to really focus on getting the motion down perfectly. Good advice here, form is not perfect near to the limit on more complex lifts (press, power-clean)
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jba302

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Re: Intermediate Strength
« Reply #64 on: September 17, 2015, 03:07:08 PM »
Always eat more food.

I've found the best ways to bulk are,
1. Drink a gallon of whole milk every day
2. Lots of PB&Js
3. Oatmeal mixed with peanut butter and nutella

+1 to this advice - This will solve a lot of strength problems. I used to buy big containers of peanuts and almonds and just snack on them constantly, then a big protein shake before bed on top of 4 meals a day. I do not miss the always-full feeling but gaining 10-15 pounds/month on all lifts was so nice.

mrteacher

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Re: Intermediate Strength
« Reply #65 on: September 17, 2015, 05:10:25 PM »
If you're doing CrossFit and having trouble putting on weight (not surprising) and you're eating few carbs and having trouble putting on weight (not surprising), try this:

1. Stop doing CrossFit and get a copy of Mass Made Simple.
2. Lift and Eat as prescribed in the book.

I'm not a CrossFit hater, but it's not a method for bulking up. Likewise, I usually eat the way you are describing to maintain or lose weight. You can go back to CrossFit after you bulk up where you want to be, and provided you don't cut calories too much, you will maintain your muscular gains as you lean out.

Enjoy the PB sandwiches!

My problem is that I want it all. I am passionate about eating clean (quasi-Paleo) and doing metabolic conditioning workouts as they kick my ass and build my 'engine' like nothing else. I also want to add muscle mass, ideally - and perhaps unrealistically - without sacrificing the diet and Crossfit workouts. That's where I run into trouble.

I'll take a look at the book you linked, and think about bringing more PB, oatmeal, milk, etc into my diet.

Thanks!

GuitarStv

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Re: Intermediate Strength
« Reply #66 on: September 17, 2015, 05:12:02 PM »
Interesting thread for sure, but not sure what I can take from it. I'm really more in the camp of trying to "look good on the beach" (vain I know) than trying to get strong. I'm kind of a tall, gangly guy(6,4", 190 pounds), so I don't think this power lifting stuff would be all that beneficial. Wouldn't rule it out though...following this thread with interest. Keep it up.

Everybody wants to look like a body builder, but nobody wants to lift no heavy ass weights.  :P

Jeremy E.

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Re: Intermediate Strength
« Reply #67 on: September 17, 2015, 05:28:42 PM »
Interesting thread for sure, but not sure what I can take from it. I'm really more in the camp of trying to "look good on the beach" (vain I know) than trying to get strong. I'm kind of a tall, gangly guy(6,4", 190 pounds), so I don't think this power lifting stuff would be all that beneficial. Wouldn't rule it out though...following this thread with interest. Keep it up.
I would recommend more of a body building program then, maybe start with something like ICF 5x5, I think it's called something else now, maybe Jason Blahas novice 5x5.

jba302

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Re: Intermediate Strength
« Reply #68 on: September 18, 2015, 07:01:03 AM »
My problem is that I want it all. I am passionate about eating clean (quasi-Paleo) and doing metabolic conditioning workouts as they kick my ass and build my 'engine' like nothing else. I also want to add muscle mass, ideally - and perhaps unrealistically - without sacrificing the diet and Crossfit workouts. That's where I run into trouble.

I'll take a look at the book you linked, and think about bringing more PB, oatmeal, milk, etc into my diet.

Thanks!

Strongman type program sounds more appropriate than Crossfit type if you are looking to add strength. Different types of HIIT activities like log carries over weighted pull-ups, more big lifts and less quick lifts (squats and push press independently instead of snatches, for example). Crossfit exercises do not have the weight number or programming format to get you to a good strength level.
To preempt the discussion point, none of the top crossfitters use a crossfit routine to get strong. Even Froning uses a modified strongman routine (plus the gear of course).

Honestly if you think of crossfit as strongman-light that probably makes enough sense.

TRBeck

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Re: Intermediate Strength
« Reply #69 on: September 18, 2015, 08:25:01 AM »
If you're doing CrossFit and having trouble putting on weight (not surprising) and you're eating few carbs and having trouble putting on weight (not surprising), try this:

1. Stop doing CrossFit and get a copy of Mass Made Simple.
2. Lift and Eat as prescribed in the book.

I'm not a CrossFit hater, but it's not a method for bulking up. Likewise, I usually eat the way you are describing to maintain or lose weight. You can go back to CrossFit after you bulk up where you want to be, and provided you don't cut calories too much, you will maintain your muscular gains as you lean out.

Enjoy the PB sandwiches!

My problem is that I want it all. I am passionate about eating clean (quasi-Paleo) and doing metabolic conditioning workouts as they kick my ass and build my 'engine' like nothing else. I also want to add muscle mass, ideally - and perhaps unrealistically - without sacrificing the diet and Crossfit workouts. That's where I run into trouble.

I'll take a look at the book you linked, and think about bringing more PB, oatmeal, milk, etc into my diet.

Thanks!
If it helps, Dan John (who wrote Mass Made Simple) was an adviser to CrossFit in the early years before it went insane, and he does believe in building an engine, variety in workouts, and eating clean. It's just, well, if you want to put on mass, you may have to change it up for a while. Really if you poke around his site or read a few of his books/articles, he has some very CrossFit-ish ideas, and he is basically the guy who introduced the kettlebell to the mainstream (Pavel Tsatsouline brought it to the States, but it was a very niche thing until Dan John started talking about it).

Anyway, Mass Made Simple works.

mrteacher

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Re: Intermediate Strength
« Reply #70 on: September 18, 2015, 08:33:04 AM »
@jba302 - I was unaware that elite Crossfit athletes did not use Crossfit to add strength! That's interesting, and good to know.

@TRBeck - Also good information to know regarding Dan John and his link to Crossfit/kettlebells. I assume you've used Mass Made Simple? How did it work for you?

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Re: Intermediate Strength
« Reply #71 on: September 19, 2015, 07:23:46 PM »
Quote
Even Froning uses a modified strongman routine (plus the gear of course).

Source (not the gear part)? I'm good friends with a multi-games CF athlete and I would not classify their training as anything close to strongman-esque.

mrteacher - you can sort of do it all, but your progress is going to be slow across the board. I would clarify jba302's statement and say that elite crossfitters don't just do random lift + random metcon every day. Their training is very periodized with very specific goals. There will be technique phases, strength-building phases, olympic lifting phases, aerobic endurance phases, etc. Each of which requires different training and helps in different ways. And honestly, their training volumes are just crazy, so probably not worth aspiring to something like that.

If you feel like you want to get stronger, just tilt your training more towards lifting. You don't have to stop sweating entirely, but maybe just do a maintenance metcon or two per week. You'd be surprised at how fast you can get your metcon shape back after a while sticking to lifts. Eating and sleeping better will also help a lot.

jba302

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Re: Intermediate Strength
« Reply #72 on: September 20, 2015, 10:16:02 AM »
Quote
Even Froning uses a modified strongman routine (plus the gear of course).

Source (not the gear part)? I'm good friends with a multi-games CF athlete and I would not classify their training as anything close to strongman-esque.

mrteacher - you can sort of do it all, but your progress is going to be slow across the board. I would clarify jba302's statement and say that elite crossfitters don't just do random lift + random metcon every day. Their training is very periodized with very specific goals. There will be technique phases, strength-building phases, olympic lifting phases, aerobic endurance phases, etc. Each of which requires different training and helps in different ways. And honestly, their training volumes are just crazy, so probably not worth aspiring to something like that.

If you feel like you want to get stronger, just tilt your training more towards lifting. You don't have to stop sweating entirely, but maybe just do a maintenance metcon or two per week. You'd be surprised at how fast you can get your metcon shape back after a while sticking to lifts. Eating and sleeping better will also help a lot.


Here's the first link I could reasonably find, followed by a strongman link (again, first one I could reasonably find, so the points are somewhat less apparent than i would generally like):

http://www.allthingsgym.com/rich-froning-training-days/

http://www.strongman.org/features/strongman-training-routine/

In the bolded part - you are describing the concept of a strongman, and my suggestion in different words. The primary difference is that in froning's program, more events are required (which means more days of events through the week) which is simply a by-product of the number of possible events you have to do in a crossfit games. Both versions have movement focus + accessory day structure, but froning's looks a little more involved because of the extra events. 

I mean "light" as a literal function of the amount of weights used- the weights are strictly lighter, but it is not as an indication of the overall demands of the program. It's just a shift in the strength/stamina/skill balance with crossfit requiring a hell of a lot more stamina for a games. Both require event training, being strong as possible, and having enough cardio to make it through the events without dying out.

As an overall point, cardio is relatively easy to develop in the scope of things, while strength is very much not. I can go on for a while on this topic with citations from Zatsiorsky, Prilepin, etc. but being very strong and generally having some stamina will beat the shit out of having a lot of stamina and being somewhat strong for events in both fields. Klokov's crossfit training videos (an Oly lifter but same idea) are a fantastic example of this.

Le Barbu

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Re: Intermediate Strength
« Reply #73 on: September 30, 2015, 06:29:21 AM »
Update; BW 178, bench 167.5x5, squat 255x5, deadlift 310x5: total 732.5
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Re: Intermediate Strength
« Reply #74 on: September 30, 2015, 07:09:38 AM »
Your total should really be the sum of your 1-rep maxes, not your 5-rep sets.

Le Barbu

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Re: Intermediate Strength
« Reply #75 on: September 30, 2015, 08:58:04 AM »
Your total should really be the sum of your 1-rep maxes, not your 5-rep sets.

Really? I never attempted 1RM on any of my lift, my plan is to follow the SS beginner's prog until nov. 10th then test my 1RM and then take a rest (1 week vacation away from home). I may start the Advanced Novice Program wich include some chin-ups, pull-ups and front squats. Not sure yet...
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use2betrix

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Re: Intermediate Strength
« Reply #76 on: November 01, 2015, 09:59:51 AM »
I've slacked the first 8 months of the year but started hard back again at it a few months ago. Last year my best numbers were 275x10 on bench and 365x5 on squat. I rarely do barbell bench so didn't want to go too heavy with lower reps. I was 215-220 at 5'10 and around 10% BF at the time for reference. My numbers have gone down a lot, and now I'm around 212 and around 13% Bf or so. I'll get back up there.

Last week my fiancÚ set a new PR. She squatted 225x3 for deep, perfect reps. She's about 120lbs. That was insanely impressive, it's rare to see most girls even go above 135lbs and still have good form. Proud moment for me as well lol. She had never worked out until we started dating, and has now been lifting almost 3 years.

Le Barbu

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Re: Intermediate Strength
« Reply #77 on: November 01, 2015, 10:54:39 AM »
Last week my fiancÚ set a new PR. She squatted 225x3 for deep, perfect reps. She's about 120lbs. That was insanely impressive, it's rare to see most girls even go above 135lbs and still have good form. Proud moment for me as well lol. She had never worked out until we started dating, and has now been lifting almost 3 years.

DW started lifting 2 months ago. She is 44 and never trained or did any sport. She started at 151#BW, squating 60. Yesterday, squated 130 for 5 reps and BF is down to 146#!!! Better results than jogging 30 minutes 5x/week!!!
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use2betrix

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Re: Intermediate Strength
« Reply #78 on: November 01, 2015, 04:24:40 PM »
Last week my fiancÚ set a new PR. She squatted 225x3 for deep, perfect reps. She's about 120lbs. That was insanely impressive, it's rare to see most girls even go above 135lbs and still have good form. Proud moment for me as well lol. She had never worked out until we started dating, and has now been lifting almost 3 years.

DW started lifting 2 months ago. She is 44 and never trained or did any sport. She started at 151#BW, squating 60. Yesterday, squated 130 for 5 reps and BF is down to 146#!!! Better results than jogging 30 minutes 5x/week!!!

Yep! Soooo much better results lifting weights. Cardio has its place but weightlifting helps way more. When you build muscle mass you burn way more calories even just sedentary throughout the day.

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Re: Intermediate Strength
« Reply #79 on: November 01, 2015, 04:29:39 PM »
Last week my fiancÚ set a new PR. She squatted 225x3 for deep, perfect reps. She's about 120lbs. That was insanely impressive, it's rare to see most girls even go above 135lbs and still have good form. Proud moment for me as well lol. She had never worked out until we started dating, and has now been lifting almost 3 years.

DW started lifting 2 months ago. She is 44 and never trained or did any sport. She started at 151#BW, squating 60. Yesterday, squated 130 for 5 reps and BF is down to 146#!!! Better results than jogging 30 minutes 5x/week!!!

Yep! Soooo much better results lifting weights. Cardio has its place but weightlifting helps way more. When you build muscle mass you burn way more calories even just sedentary throughout the day.
And this muscle mass continue burning calories even while you sleep!
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Re: Intermediate Strength
« Reply #80 on: November 02, 2015, 11:45:17 PM »
A lot of good advice in this thread. I will add an important piece as a 44 year old who has been lifting for 7 years.
If you start to plateau, take a few weeks off and then only lift 2 or 3 times a week . Just 5x5 progression. As much as we hate to admit it, many of us older guys make much better gains with more rest and recovery.
In the end you may have to experiment with stuff and find what works best for you. e.g many people swear by 5/3/1 it did nothing for me, but 3 months of 10 x10 only lifting twice a week did wonders, as did more carbs in my diet.

GuitarStv

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Re: Intermediate Strength
« Reply #81 on: November 03, 2015, 06:34:20 AM »
The 5/3/1 program gives a pretty wide range of customization based on your goals.  Your routine will look radically different if you're trying to bodybuild versus train for powerlifting.  It's possible that you just needed to switch up the assistance exercises.

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Re: Intermediate Strength
« Reply #82 on: November 03, 2015, 09:02:36 AM »
I made no progress on 5/3/1, nowhere near enough volume. Sheiko was the best for me but I no longer have 2 hours / 3 times a week that I can dedicate. As I'm getting older I am finding that I can maintain easily with slow gains on higher volume / lower frequency, so I'll do a couple pyramids a week with the big lifts and call it good.

GuitarStv

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Re: Intermediate Strength
« Reply #83 on: November 03, 2015, 09:35:09 AM »
I don't entirely understand the criticism of 'not enough volume'.  I ran the 5/3/1 BBB variant for a little over a year and had steady increases in all my lifts.  As per 'Beyond 531' I was doing:

Main lifts (per program):
Warm-up - 40%, 50%, 60%
Work Set - 5s wk: 65%, 75%, 85% AMRAP, heavier sets of 5 depending on mood, 65% AMRAP
Work Set - 3s wk: 70%, 80%, 90% AMRAP, heavier sets of 3 depending on mood, 70% AMRAP
Work Set - 5/3/1 wk: 75%, 85%, 95% AMRAP, heavier sets of 1 depending on mood, 75% AMRAP

The accessory exercises were done as per BBB (except for the power cleans which I did as per the 'using 531 with power cleans' template online:

Military Press - Weighted Dips (5x10) - Weighted Pull-ups (5x10)

Power Clean (5x3, 7x2, 10x1, depending on week) - Deadlift - Front Squat (5x10)

Bench Press - DB Bench (5x10) - Bent Over Row (5x10)

Squat - Deadlift (5x10) - Squat (5x10)


That seemed like a ton of volume at the time.

jba302

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Re: Intermediate Strength
« Reply #84 on: November 03, 2015, 02:06:42 PM »
The BBB template is a bit higher in volume than the core program, but it's still focused on 1 really hard day per week for a given lift so the opportunity for high intensity is in place of larger amounts of moderate intensity with Sheiko (with some sprinkled higher intensity work, you really only end up doing 10 or so 90%+ lifts in a 4 month block with 29/30/31/32). Sheiko is 3 days/week bench, 2 days/week squat, 1 day/week deadlift.

As an example, in the first week of 30 (which is a shitty shitty week but a fair comparison since 29 is a prep phase) you do 30 reps at 80%+ on squat and 120 squat reps overall. In comparison, the 5's week on 5/3/1 +BBB would be:
5 @ 40%
5 @ 50%
5 @ 60%
5 @ 65%
5 @ 75%
8(ish) @ 85%
10(ish) @ 65%
50 @ 50%

93 total, 8 at or above 80%. That second part is the problem for me more than the overall. Even adding in another set of 5 would put you at 98/13 against 120/30. I know a few people who put a lot of weight on their squat with it, but 5/3/1 happened to not work for me because i have a LOT of trouble grinding reps above 90, which is a big part of the program.  This moderately tough intensity/ constant hitting works well for me. Probably similar to why I can do a shit load of manual labor all day but it takes a sun dial for my 100 meter dash.

GuitarStv

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Re: Intermediate Strength
« Reply #85 on: November 03, 2015, 05:49:21 PM »
I gotcha.  Hmm, I wonder how much your preferred method of training later on in life depends on things you did when you were younger.  I spent years in martial arts (boxing, wrestling, BJJ, Judo) and most of that focused around pumping out occasional huge efforts between relatively low intensity stuff for a few rounds.

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Re: Intermediate Strength
« Reply #86 on: November 03, 2015, 06:35:21 PM »
A lot of training is really geared towards body types and genetics in regards to volume and reps. A genetically massive/strong guy is going to get massive/strong by nearly anything, but some programs are better than others. I have a friend who is a huge competitive bodybuilder, and for years all he did was 15 reps of everything. It just worked best for him.

2 years ago I adjusted my training geared towards Dorian Yates and Mike Mentzers training principles. Super high intensity and low sets. Right now I'm doing a 3 day split and lifting 4 days a week, so essentially training every muscle group every 5 days or so.

Tonight was chest/shoulders/triceps.

My chest workout for example was 2 warm ups for decline, then one "all out set" for decline, incline, and flies. My decline was as follows: 1 warm up at 135x10, 1 warm up at 185x10, then my "all out set" was 235x10 (which was absolutely failure) then my fiancÚ spotted me for two more forced reps, then she immediately stripped the bar down to 185 where I immediately did 185x10, then she stripped it down to 135 where I did 135x7. This was to a total new type of failure that most people never see.

This has worked great for me the last couple years. I slacked and did crossfit for several months and lost a lot of gains, but now it's coming back quick. It's pushed me past plateaus I never knew I could do. I used to always think I'd be content to make it to 200lbs (started at 168) and have since made it up to 220 was the most, at less body fat than when I was at 168. That being said, I eat a LOT and my grocery bill is probably the most expensive on the site for two people lol.

Here's a great interview by Dorian Yates and his training principles.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/dorian_yates_training_insight.htm

jba302

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Re: Intermediate Strength
« Reply #87 on: November 04, 2015, 10:31:32 AM »
I gotcha.  Hmm, I wonder how much your preferred method of training later on in life depends on things you did when you were younger.  I spent years in martial arts (boxing, wrestling, BJJ, Judo) and most of that focused around pumping out occasional huge efforts between relatively low intensity stuff for a few rounds.

I would kind of think it's the other way around. Like what did i excel at, and then how do I base my training around the reason for that. I know muscle fibers can mimic other ones but it isn't ideal, and your muscle fiber distribution is set genetically. Probably yak shaving at that point since most people would get stronger doing anything consistently.

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Re: Intermediate Strength
« Reply #88 on: November 04, 2015, 01:21:35 PM »
My long term goal is to someday reach the advanced level in about 3 years
  Then start eating like it.  Upon rising, 8 eggs and a cup of old fashioned oats, one slice of whole grain bread, and coffee or tea.  Then throughout the day, eat 1.5 to 2 pounds of meat (you pick 1.5 or 2 depending upon how quickly you want to add bodyweight and strength).  Split it up into three or four meals of 8-10 ounces throughout the day.  Add a cup of brown rice to each meal, along with a fibrous vegetable (spinach, broccoli, asparagus).  Eat a bowl of cottage cheese when going to bed.

Forget all that crap about PB&J sandwiches and whole milk by the gallon.  That is just a bunch of sugar (seriously, read the nutrition label on milk) and, especially at 43, will just make you fat.

Diet is a large part of what you are trying to accomplish.  Get your diet sorted out and watch the lifts get heavier and heavier.

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Re: Intermediate Strength
« Reply #89 on: November 25, 2015, 06:30:48 AM »
I actually recover from a inner-knee bursitis (pes anserine) from an injury 1 year ago and did not squat for 6 weeks now. Meanwhile, I resseted my weights at bench and shoulder-press and introduced chin-up and pull-up (weighted and unweighted). Now I press 5x120lb (previous plateau was 115) and bench 5x170lb with no problem (I was barelly lifting 165lb before). Weighted chin-up and pull-up are amazing! My back is like brand new again and I hope I can beging to squat and deadlift soon, maybe in about 2-3 weeks.
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Re: Intermediate Strength
« Reply #90 on: December 07, 2015, 03:28:53 PM »
I actually recover from a inner-knee bursitis (pes anserine) from an injury 1 year ago and did not squat for 6 weeks now. Meanwhile, I resseted my weights at bench and shoulder-press and introduced chin-up and pull-up (weighted and unweighted). Now I press 5x120lb (previous plateau was 115) and bench 5x170lb with no problem (I was barelly lifting 165lb before). Weighted chin-up and pull-up are amazing! My back is like brand new again and I hope I can beging to squat and deadlift soon, maybe in about 2-3 weeks.
  Sorry to hear about your knee, but glad to hear you are getting back at it.

Jeremy E.

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Re: Intermediate Strength
« Reply #91 on: December 07, 2015, 04:47:33 PM »
My long term goal is to someday reach the advanced level in about 3 years
  Then start eating like it.  Upon rising, 8 eggs and a cup of old fashioned oats, one slice of whole grain bread, and coffee or tea.  Then throughout the day, eat 1.5 to 2 pounds of meat (you pick 1.5 or 2 depending upon how quickly you want to add bodyweight and strength).  Split it up into three or four meals of 8-10 ounces throughout the day.  Add a cup of brown rice to each meal, along with a fibrous vegetable (spinach, broccoli, asparagus).  Eat a bowl of cottage cheese when going to bed.

Forget all that crap about PB&J sandwiches and whole milk by the gallon.  That is just a bunch of sugar (seriously, read the nutrition label on milk) and, especially at 43, will just make you fat.

Diet is a large part of what you are trying to accomplish.  Get your diet sorted out and watch the lifts get heavier and heavier.
PB&J sandwiches and gallons of whole milk are not crap, they are a tool used to bulk. For building muscle, you only need 1 gram of protein per pound of lean body mass you have, doing what you suggest and only eating protein is a waste of money. Yes milk and PB&Js have sugar, yes you will gain both fat. That's the definition of bulking, but the important thing to realize is if you combine it with consistently doing a decent strength training program, you will build a ton of muscle. Gaining muscle is very hard, losing fat is not as hard and can be done by cuts after a good muscle base is built. A friend of mine recently started Starting strength, and after 11 weeks he gained 55lbs, 31lbs were lean body mass and the rest was fat. He also took his squat from 145 3x5 to 315 3x5. He ate more than 6000 calories a day, including a gallon of whole milk per day. This allowed him to recover from the training and grow a lot of muscle. He didn't miss a single workout. That was 2 months ago, I just talked to him and he has been cutting since then and has lost 15lbs, 12lbs of which were fat. He also increased his squat from 315 3x5 to 340 2x5 during his cut (he is only doing 2x5 because he is cutting). He's currently gained 28lbs of lean body mass and 12lbs of fat and he looks leaner than he did to begin with because of the gain in muscle.

use2betrix

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Re: Intermediate Strength
« Reply #92 on: December 07, 2015, 07:02:44 PM »
My long term goal is to someday reach the advanced level in about 3 years
  Then start eating like it.  Upon rising, 8 eggs and a cup of old fashioned oats, one slice of whole grain bread, and coffee or tea.  Then throughout the day, eat 1.5 to 2 pounds of meat (you pick 1.5 or 2 depending upon how quickly you want to add bodyweight and strength).  Split it up into three or four meals of 8-10 ounces throughout the day.  Add a cup of brown rice to each meal, along with a fibrous vegetable (spinach, broccoli, asparagus).  Eat a bowl of cottage cheese when going to bed.

Forget all that crap about PB&J sandwiches and whole milk by the gallon.  That is just a bunch of sugar (seriously, read the nutrition label on milk) and, especially at 43, will just make you fat.

Diet is a large part of what you are trying to accomplish.  Get your diet sorted out and watch the lifts get heavier and heavier.
PB&J sandwiches and gallons of whole milk are not crap, they are a tool used to bulk. For building muscle, you only need 1 gram of protein per pound of lean body mass you have, doing what you suggest and only eating protein is a waste of money. Yes milk and PB&Js have sugar, yes you will gain both fat. That's the definition of bulking, but the important thing to realize is if you combine it with consistently doing a decent strength training program, you will build a ton of muscle. Gaining muscle is very hard, losing fat is not as hard and can be done by cuts after a good muscle base is built. A friend of mine recently started Starting strength, and after 11 weeks he gained 55lbs, 31lbs were lean body mass and the rest was fat. He also took his squat from 145 3x5 to 315 3x5. He ate more than 6000 calories a day, including a gallon of whole milk per day. This allowed him to recover from the training and grow a lot of muscle. He didn't miss a single workout. That was 2 months ago, I just talked to him and he has been cutting since then and has lost 15lbs, 12lbs of which were fat. He also increased his squat from 315 3x5 to 340 2x5 during his cut (he is only doing 2x5 because he is cutting). He's currently gained 28lbs of lean body mass and 12lbs of fat and he looks leaner than he did to begin with because of the gain in muscle.

Have you asked him what steroid cycle he's on? Because I am 100% positive that NO NATURAL PERSON gets those numbers without them. Even on a cycle that'd be very hard, but seeing how inexperienced he was when he started it may be doable.

I have tons of friends on steroids where we've discussed in detail and tons that aren't.

Great for your friend but don't let him fool you into thinking those results are capable by a normal natural person.

GuitarStv

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Re: Intermediate Strength
« Reply #93 on: December 08, 2015, 07:17:46 AM »
I wouldn't necessarily jump to accusations of steroid use right away.

In my 30s, I started eating much more and very strictly following a weight training program.  I was able to add 30 lbs on to my frame (180 - 210) and my lifts went up tremendously over about 8 months to a year.  (Deadlift alone went from 220x5 to 390x5.)  No special drug usage of any kind.

My understanding is that when you're in the 18 - 28 year old range it's even easier to gain strength and put on muscle.  Squatting over 300 lbs is not rare for a healthy man who is weight training.  It doesn't sound particularly impossible to me.

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Re: Intermediate Strength
« Reply #94 on: December 08, 2015, 09:58:49 AM »
My long term goal is to someday reach the advanced level in about 3 years
  Then start eating like it.  Upon rising, 8 eggs and a cup of old fashioned oats, one slice of whole grain bread, and coffee or tea.  Then throughout the day, eat 1.5 to 2 pounds of meat (you pick 1.5 or 2 depending upon how quickly you want to add bodyweight and strength).  Split it up into three or four meals of 8-10 ounces throughout the day.  Add a cup of brown rice to each meal, along with a fibrous vegetable (spinach, broccoli, asparagus).  Eat a bowl of cottage cheese when going to bed.

Forget all that crap about PB&J sandwiches and whole milk by the gallon.  That is just a bunch of sugar (seriously, read the nutrition label on milk) and, especially at 43, will just make you fat.

Diet is a large part of what you are trying to accomplish.  Get your diet sorted out and watch the lifts get heavier and heavier.
PB&J sandwiches and gallons of whole milk are not crap, they are a tool used to bulk. For building muscle, you only need 1 gram of protein per pound of lean body mass you have, doing what you suggest and only eating protein is a waste of money. Yes milk and PB&Js have sugar, yes you will gain both fat. That's the definition of bulking, but the important thing to realize is if you combine it with consistently doing a decent strength training program, you will build a ton of muscle. Gaining muscle is very hard, losing fat is not as hard and can be done by cuts after a good muscle base is built. A friend of mine recently started Starting strength, and after 11 weeks he gained 55lbs, 31lbs were lean body mass and the rest was fat. He also took his squat from 145 3x5 to 315 3x5. He ate more than 6000 calories a day, including a gallon of whole milk per day. This allowed him to recover from the training and grow a lot of muscle. He didn't miss a single workout. That was 2 months ago, I just talked to him and he has been cutting since then and has lost 15lbs, 12lbs of which were fat. He also increased his squat from 315 3x5 to 340 2x5 during his cut (he is only doing 2x5 because he is cutting). He's currently gained 28lbs of lean body mass and 12lbs of fat and he looks leaner than he did to begin with because of the gain in muscle.

Have you asked him what steroid cycle he's on? Because I am 100% positive that NO NATURAL PERSON gets those numbers without them. Even on a cycle that'd be very hard, but seeing how inexperienced he was when he started it may be doable.

I have tons of friends on steroids where we've discussed in detail and tons that aren't.

Great for your friend but don't let him fool you into thinking those results are capable by a normal natural person.
No, Zach was/is not taking steroids; being an extremely broke 20 year old college kid, he can barely afford his gallon of milk a day. He goes to the gym 3 days per week, never missing a workout, and added 10 pounds to his three work sets each time for 2 weeks, and then added 5 pounds to his work sets until he started slowing down to 315. He ate more than 6000 calories a day, thus recovering from the training and having enough left over for quite a bit of tissue growth. He gave his body a reason to need to be bigger, and then he provided it the means to get that way. The training drove the growth, and the growth facilitated the increased training load.

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Re: Intermediate Strength
« Reply #95 on: December 08, 2015, 10:10:49 AM »
Anyone who is a beginning lifter who STICKS WITH a program for several months will see amazing gains.  For any program to work you have to stick with it. 
I started at 255lbs 35+% bf (obese) lifting at beginner numbers (right under bodyweight for the most part).  2 years of consistency later I am at 215 lbs 15% bf; Deadlift 495x6, Squat 405x9, Bench 285x8, OHP 190x9, Pendlay Row 235x8.  I have actually gained about 10lbs this year but that was because I stopped counting calories for 3 months and bulked up too much- currently on a cut and still making strength gains (just hit my 6th rep of 5 plate deadlift which was a huge accomplishment for me).

I wasted 2 months on cardio at the start then switched to 6 months of strong lifts and now I do a reverse pyramid training program.  I take 2-3 week breaks in between each program.  Food is about 90% of the work though- I premake all of my meals (weekly at first, daily now) and count all calories and macros.  The gym session takes about 40mins 3 days a week.

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Re: Intermediate Strength
« Reply #96 on: December 08, 2015, 10:28:59 AM »
I did those numbers in about 4 or 5 months when I got my first real job. At 5'11", I went from 155 pounds to 205 pounds and my squat went from 115 to 325, bench from 115 to 280x3, and deadlift from 135 to 365x5. I hated eating so much by the end of that time I can't even describe it.

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Re: Intermediate Strength
« Reply #97 on: December 08, 2015, 10:54:13 AM »
The very thought of consuming the amount of calories talked about here makes me feel much better about the approach I am taking to overall fitness achievement. 6000 calories...my god...really? Now that I think about it, I can probably think of several guys in my local gym who must be doing this. They ARE strong...but they also look FAT. I'm not interested at all in the fat part...even if it means I will never lift impressive weights over my head. ;)

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Re: Intermediate Strength
« Reply #98 on: December 08, 2015, 10:55:24 AM »
I'm in on this challenge.
6'0" 210 lbs here.
Last week I hit 225x5 on bench, 275 x 5 on squat, and 315 x 5 on deadlift.

Looking to get to 275 x 5, 315 x 5, 405 x 5 respectively by February 6th (when I leave for a 9 day vacation)
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Re: Intermediate Strength
« Reply #99 on: December 08, 2015, 11:56:27 AM »
The very thought of consuming the amount of calories talked about here makes me feel much better about the approach I am taking to overall fitness achievement. 6000 calories...my god...really? Now that I think about it, I can probably think of several guys in my local gym who must be doing this. They ARE strong...but they also look FAT. I'm not interested at all in the fat part...even if it means I will never lift impressive weights over my head. ;)
You can't even tell my friend has gained any fat now that he's done his bulk and a cut afterwards, in just under 5 months he's gained 28lbs of lean body mass and 12lbs of fat, you can tell he's gained muscle, but you can't tell he's fatter