#StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner

[RWD]

Filled up gas for the first time since September. Doing pretty well with not burning stuff since moving.

My hats off to you

Recently I had the surreal experience of driving our EV to buy gasoline for our gas generator when our power was knocked out by a late winter storm.

Try as I might, there’s no sensible, low-carbon-footprint, low cost option for infrequent power outages other than our generator. I wish our EV had two-way charging, and we may eventually get a power wall if/when net metering goes away.

Our solar + batteries install begins next week. =)

[nereo]

Filled up gas for the first time since September. Doing pretty well with not burning stuff since moving.

My hats off to you

Recently I had the surreal experience of driving our EV to buy gasoline for our gas generator when our power was knocked out by a late winter storm.

Try as I might, there’s no sensible, low-carbon-footprint, low cost option for infrequent power outages other than our generator. I wish our EV had two-way charging, and we may eventually get a power wall if/when net metering goes away.

Our solar + batteries install begins next week. =)

Jealous - we miss the panels on our previous home.

We’ve had to postpone panels (and possibly batteries) until we re-do a section of roof, which must coincide with a renovation we’ve been planning but has been long delayed.

It seems like it might actually happen by November…ish. Fingers crossed.

[SmashYourSmartPhone]

Try as I might, there’s no sensible, low-carbon-footprint, low cost option for infrequent power outages other than our generator. I wish our EV had two-way charging, and we may eventually get a power wall if/when net metering goes away.

Nope.  And "a bit of metal and some copper" is pretty low carbon footprint, as far as production embodied energy goes.

Two way EV charging for home backup doesn't seem likely to happen any time soon, beyond "toy" projects.  Some of the EVs with built in split phase inverters could easily be used, but they're $100k+ class machines by the time you actually get one delivered.

Aren't the Tesla batteries still $15k installed, and utterly impossible to do your own work with?

[RWD]

Aren't the Tesla batteries still $15k installed, and utterly impossible to do your own work with?

I was quoted $34k installed for three Powerwalls (previous generation before the new ones were announced) before tax credits. $24k after tax credits. Not sure what a single one would have cost. I didn't want anything to do with Tesla's ecosystem and I vastly preferred LFP batteries anyway so I went with four Enphase IQ5P batteries. Cost will be $24k installed before incentives, $16k after.

[nereo]

Aren't the Tesla batteries still $15k installed, and utterly impossible to do your own work with?

I suppose I was using the generic term "power wall" the way one uses words like Kleenex and Velcro.  I don't really care much if it's made by Tesla or someone else, though around here it seems most battery backup systems are NOT Tesla brand.  As for "utterly impossible to do your own work" - a battery backup is one area where I don't really want to do any modifications; I just want it to do its job. I do a lot of DIY but this is one item I'd want/expect to be simply "install and play".

[GilesMM]

I still can't wrap my head around paying for 10 kWh batteries strictly for backup power that will sit in a garage, unused 99.9% of the time, two feet away from a 50-80 kWh electric car or two. 

[AlanStache]

re hydrogen

I am somewhat skeptical in some ways but it will probably get used in some areas.  There are a few companies that are seriously working on it for aviation. 

https://hydrogen.aero/
They are looking to replace one of two engines with an electric motor driven by fuel cell running off hydrogen, they had a first flight on a full sized aircraft last year.  In aviation the maintenance savings of going electric can really add up, operators are accustomed to looking at total cost of ownership. 

[RWD]

I still can't wrap my head around paying for 10 kWh batteries strictly for backup power that will sit in a garage, unused 99.9% of the time, two feet away from a 50-80 kWh electric car or two.

The cost of the batteries themselves is only one piece of the puzzle (roughly accounted for 2/3rds the cost in my case). You need some sort of controller, DC-AC inverters, and an automatic transfer switch. And it's not just capacity that matters, power output is extremely important too. Sure you may have 80 kWh parked in your garage but if it's plugged in to a 50 amp circuit it won't be able to handle the load of an A/C compressor starting while powering the rest of the house. If you have limited power output then you'll also need to pay for a smart panel that can prioritize the distribution of the load. You could easily see costs of $5k-$10k to take your already bi-directional capable EV and make it be able to power your house. Motortrend famously was quoted $18k to add all the necessary equipment for their Ford Lightning (though the house only had a 100 amp panel to start).

The backup batteries don't have to be reserved for emergency power only. I can use them to power my house at night and recharge with solar during the day. Or to supplement power during peak time-of-use hours if solar doesn't quite cover it. If I used my EV for this then I would be worried about battery degradation over time from the extra cycles. Losing some capacity over time for house backup batteries is less critical than losing range in an EV. My house batteries are also LFP which in theory can handle more charge-discharge cycles than the NMC batteries in my EV. They also are happier at 100% charge.

[jeninco]

I still can't wrap my head around paying for 10 kWh batteries strictly for backup power that will sit in a garage, unused 99.9% of the time, two feet away from a 50-80 kWh electric car or two.

The cost of the batteries themselves is only one piece of the puzzle (roughly accounted for 2/3rds the cost in my case). You need some sort of controller, DC-AC inverters, and an automatic transfer switch. And it's not just capacity that matters, power output is extremely important too. Sure you may have 80 kWh parked in your garage but if it's plugged in to a 50 amp circuit it won't be able to handle the load of an A/C compressor starting while powering the rest of the house. If you have limited power output then you'll also need to pay for a smart panel that can prioritize the distribution of the load. You could easily see costs of $5k-$10k to take your already bi-directional capable EV and make it be able to power your house. Motortrend famously was quoted $18k to add all the necessary equipment for their Ford Lightning (though the house only had a 100 amp panel to start).

The backup batteries don't have to be reserved for emergency power only. I can use them to power my house at night and recharge with solar during the day. Or to supplement power during peak time-of-use hours if solar doesn't quite cover it. If I used my EV for this then I would be worried about battery degradation over time from the extra cycles. Losing some capacity over time for house backup batteries is less critical than losing range in an EV. My house batteries are also LFP which in theory can handle more charge-discharge cycles than the NMC batteries in my EV. They also are happier at 100% charge.

This is useful: thank you.

We just got the south roof re-roofed in anticipation of doing solar panel installation in the next few months. Our utility is pretty backed up on approving and "starting" net metering, so we'd like to get the installers out here ASAP. However, we're having a different electrician (probably) do the service upgrade, and we'll also have him design a system that will allow a battery to be added at some point. I'd rather wait until battery costs drop a bit!

I'm with Giles on the "why am I paying for a battery when I have a car sitting right there" question. The only things we'll have on the backup circuit will be the fridge and freezer and perhaps an outlet for charging: we don't live in a place where AC is mandatory, we're OK using candles at night, and we're installing a wood stove for backup heat (sorry, not sorry #stopBurningStuff people -- our power has been out several times in the coldest part of the year, and we'd like backup heat for when that happens! We're also insulating the absolute crap out of the house as part of this remodel...)

[RWD]

I still can't wrap my head around paying for 10 kWh batteries strictly for backup power that will sit in a garage, unused 99.9% of the time, two feet away from a 50-80 kWh electric car or two.

The cost of the batteries themselves is only one piece of the puzzle (roughly accounted for 2/3rds the cost in my case). You need some sort of controller, DC-AC inverters, and an automatic transfer switch. And it's not just capacity that matters, power output is extremely important too. Sure you may have 80 kWh parked in your garage but if it's plugged in to a 50 amp circuit it won't be able to handle the load of an A/C compressor starting while powering the rest of the house. If you have limited power output then you'll also need to pay for a smart panel that can prioritize the distribution of the load. You could easily see costs of $5k-$10k to take your already bi-directional capable EV and make it be able to power your house. Motortrend famously was quoted $18k to add all the necessary equipment for their Ford Lightning (though the house only had a 100 amp panel to start).

The backup batteries don't have to be reserved for emergency power only. I can use them to power my house at night and recharge with solar during the day. Or to supplement power during peak time-of-use hours if solar doesn't quite cover it. If I used my EV for this then I would be worried about battery degradation over time from the extra cycles. Losing some capacity over time for house backup batteries is less critical than losing range in an EV. My house batteries are also LFP which in theory can handle more charge-discharge cycles than the NMC batteries in my EV. They also are happier at 100% charge.

This is useful: thank you.

We just got the south roof re-roofed in anticipation of doing solar panel installation in the next few months. Our utility is pretty backed up on approving and "starting" net metering, so we'd like to get the installers out here ASAP. However, we're having a different electrician (probably) do the service upgrade, and we'll also have him design a system that will allow a battery to be added at some point. I'd rather wait until battery costs drop a bit!

I'm with Giles on the "why am I paying for a battery when I have a car sitting right there" question. The only things we'll have on the backup circuit will be the fridge and freezer and perhaps an outlet for charging: we don't live in a place where AC is mandatory, we're OK using candles at night, and we're installing a wood stove for backup heat (sorry, not sorry #stopBurningStuff people -- our power has been out several times in the coldest part of the year, and we'd like backup heat for when that happens! We're also insulating the absolute crap out of the house as part of this remodel...)

If you only need to power a fridge, freezer, and mobile device charging then you don't need a full bi-directional set up. The Hyundai/Kia V2L system gives you a standard outlet or two that can handle that with an extension cord and some splitting/power strips. Or any other EV with power outlets can handle that (F-150 Lightning and Rivian come to mind). Video of how this exact scenario works in practice: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yO5fJ8z66Z8

[NorCal]

Yea, there's a massive price differential between something to back up the whole house and something that could maybe power a refrigerator for a day.

My newish philosophy is to look for EV's that have a power outlet, like the Ioniq 5.  My Rivian has one.  It will only put out 1,500W, but that's plenty for powering a fridge and some other devices for multiple days.  I could even power a space-heater in a pinch, albeit with everything else disconnected.  I just had to buy a $70 extension cord, as the cheaper cords aren't rated for that wattage.

While it doesn't have the capabilities of a true V2G or generator backup, I think it's sufficient for the rare outage. 

[nereo]

I still can't wrap my head around paying for 10 kWh batteries strictly for backup power that will sit in a garage, unused 99.9% of the time, two feet away from a 50-80 kWh electric car or two.

Building on what RWD said - the equation changes dramatically if you don’t have favorable net metering (or think it might be taken away). With a battery system you can either

• achieve net-zero with a much smaller array or
• actually benefit from a larger array in ways you otherwise can’t.

Electricity rates tend to be cheapest late at night and (increasingly) mid-day as lots of solar is being produced. It’s most expensive between 5-9pm and 6-9am. Match energy production (PVs) to electricity use and prices and you can get a payback period that’s in the 7-15 year range depending on a whole lot of factors. If your muni has no net metering your payback can be less than 3 years (sometimes “instant” if you can go with a much smaller array

[GilesMM]

I still can't wrap my head around paying for 10 kWh batteries strictly for backup power that will sit in a garage, unused 99.9% of the time, two feet away from a 50-80 kWh electric car or two.

Building on what RWD said - the equation changes dramatically if you don’t have favorable net metering (or think it might be taken away). With a battery system you can either

• achieve net-zero with a much smaller array or
• actually benefit from a larger array in ways you otherwise can’t.

Electricity rates tend to be cheapest late at night and (increasingly) mid-day as lots of solar is being produced. It’s most expensive between 5-9pm and 6-9am. Match energy production (PVs) to electricity use and prices and you can get a payback period that’s in the 7-15 year range depending on a whole lot of factors. If your muni has no net metering your payback can be less than 3 years (sometimes “instant” if you can go with a much smaller array

If the battery investment makes great economic sense in your area due to peak pricing, go for it. But that is not about backup power.


Let's hope the bi-directional charging complexities and costs come down to earth because then you can take advantage of peak hour pricing games using your electric car battery instead of hanging one on the wall.  A group in Austin tested this with a Leaf (and their own equipment) and found almost no battery degradation. https://www.pecanstreet.org/2019/06/shines/

[nereo]

If the battery investment makes great economic sense in your area due to peak pricing, go for it. But that is not about backup power.

That's exactly the point being made.  From both an economic and environmental impact stance, installing a battery backup system is extremely expense with a very big footprint; there are much cheaper and lower impact options.

But to conclude that it makes no economic sense ignores that the battery can be useful in other ways which can offer a ROI.  Compare that to a generator (portable or standby) which *only* does one thing and hopefully *only* gets used ~ 1% of the year on average.

The obvious problem with using a car's battery for this function (other than the complexities and cost of bi-directional charging) is that your car needs to be physically there and plugged in.  It can work for WFH or retired types, but most drive their cars somewhere else during the day, which is exactly when you'd want your PVs to be pumping energy into a battery system of some kind.

[AlanStache]

...

The obvious problem with using a car's battery for this function (other than the complexities and cost of bi-directional charging) is that your car needs to be physically there and plugged in.  It can work for WFH or retired types, but most drive their cars somewhere else during the day, which is exactly when you'd want your PVs to be pumping energy into a battery system of some kind.

If you are trying to arbitrage with the grid, sure.  But for a home backup system only sort of, at least in my area.  How much do you need the power to be on when you are not home?  As most people are car dependent and never more than the depth of a big box store away from their car, having the power backed up and on when they and their car are not home does not seem that critical to me.  The fridge should be ok for a few hours without power, dont need lights when not home, running the clothes dryer when not home is not critical, home PC turning off is probably not critical, etc.  *** As some have said they live in areas with proper cold where power is more important than in SE Virginia, or might have someone home who does not drive the EV. ***

Maybe I just dont have any real need for an electrical back up system <shrug>, power goes out - read a book, light some candles.  I do think it would be cool to be "off grid" while in suburbia but not sure worth the financial cost.  (I dont live in suburbia). 

[RWD]

How much do you need the power to be on when you are not home?

A lot more than the average person for us. I have home server computers that are a real PITA if they lose power unexpectedly. I run a NAS on one of the servers which stores all our files centrally (more than would practically fit on any single PC). This allows any computer (or phone/table/whatever) on the network to access all the files (either directly or indirectly via services like Jellyfin, PhotoPrism, Navidrome, etc.). When we travel (and my spouse travels for work a lot) a Wireguard VPN is used to retain access to the home network.

If the power goes out our UPSs will keep the computers and internet up for about 20-30 minutes. If an outage lasts longer there will be a huge loss of productivity for my spouse (I would be annoyed too but less critically). If we are both traveling at the time of a power outage then I'm not positive the servers will all come back up until we get home (they should but there can always be hiccups).

It is still hard to justify the financial cost. But since we're installing our batteries with solar we get the incentives which makes the cost at least somewhat reasonable. We're paying about a third of what I expected backup batteries to cost us. I'm sure prices will continue to drop, of course, but they are no longer in soul-crushing territory.

[NorCal]

On a semi-related tangent, I've put "How to prepare for Climate Change" on my reading list. 

https://www.amazon.com/dp/1982134518/?coliid=I1962JW8YKWNF9&colid=9SHWTBKDFQPK&psc=1&ref_=list_c_wl_gv_ov_lig_pi_dp

The premise seems to be that it's wise to invest in resiliency and adaptation.  I flipped through it in the bookstore, and it went into details on how to reinforce rafters in homes and how to direct water away from foundations.  While I suspect the dangers are overstated and conclusions sensationalized, it piqued my curiosity.  I suspect there are some practical tidbits about resiliency that might make sense to implement, as I haven't thought about the topic deeply. 

I'd be curious to hear from others that have read the book. 

[nereo]

On a semi-related tangent, I've put "How to prepare for Climate Change" on my reading list. 

https://www.amazon.com/dp/1982134518/?coliid=I1962JW8YKWNF9&colid=9SHWTBKDFQPK&psc=1&ref_=list_c_wl_gv_ov_lig_pi_dp

The premise seems to be that it's wise to invest in resiliency and adaptation.  I flipped through it in the bookstore, and it went into details on how to reinforce rafters in homes and how to direct water away from foundations.  While I suspect the dangers are overstated and conclusions sensationalized, it piqued my curiosity.  I suspect there are some practical tidbits about resiliency that might make sense to implement, as I haven't thought about the topic deeply. 

I'd be curious to hear from others that have read the book.

We are in the midst of a renovation project and preparing for climate change is forefront in our minds. Establishing better drainage is key - thankfully we have some decent slope.  Good ol’ air sealing and insulation is also top of our minds.  As we much up the yard with heavy machinery, laying foundations and improving drainage we will be landscaping with native, drought-tolerant species and converting about 1/3 of our yard into a pollinator garden. I’m toy8ngbwith the idea of a rain garden where we will channel all our roof runoff, but technically it’s the town property and not ours. The snow plows could wreck things if we’d go too close to the road.

Inside we are taking advantage of solar heat gain, paying attention to our building envelope and thinking always about how to moderate the tail ends of weather.

[jeninco]

On a semi-related tangent, I've put "How to prepare for Climate Change" on my reading list. 

https://www.amazon.com/dp/1982134518/?coliid=I1962JW8YKWNF9&colid=9SHWTBKDFQPK&psc=1&ref_=list_c_wl_gv_ov_lig_pi_dp

The premise seems to be that it's wise to invest in resiliency and adaptation.  I flipped through it in the bookstore, and it went into details on how to reinforce rafters in homes and how to direct water away from foundations.  While I suspect the dangers are overstated and conclusions sensationalized, it piqued my curiosity.  I suspect there are some practical tidbits about resiliency that might make sense to implement, as I haven't thought about the topic deeply. 

I'd be curious to hear from others that have read the book.

We are in the midst of a renovation project and preparing for climate change is forefront in our minds. Establishing better drainage is key - thankfully we have some decent slope.  Good ol’ air sealing and insulation is also top of our minds.  As we much up the yard with heavy machinery, laying foundations and improving drainage we will be landscaping with native, drought-tolerant species and converting about 1/3 of our yard into a pollinator garden. I’m toy8ngbwith the idea of a rain garden where we will channel all our roof runoff, but technically it’s the town property and not ours. The snow plows could wreck things if we’d go too close to the road.

Inside we are taking advantage of solar heat gain, paying attention to our building envelope and thinking always about how to moderate the tail ends of weather.

We are waiting on our city to approve permits to do a lot of this same stuff. Along with expanding the garage (so DH has a functioning woodshed, so he can build more stuff for more of the year) and re-arranging the interior a bit (but not expanding it) we'll be adding solar, encapsulating the crawlspaces, setting up for a heat pump (we may not install it just yet) replacing the water heater with a heat-pump powered unit, adding insulation everywhere we can, etc. etc. We'll also be re-doing a bunch of the landscaping to 1) remove the explosively flammable junipers from literally touching our house, and otherwise trying to fireproof the property a bit (we live about 15 miles from the area where 1000 mostly-suburban houses burned down a year and a half ago in a fast-moving wildfire), and 2) being more intentional about swaling and berms so we can use runoff water when we do get weather events. There will be plenty of native plants-- there already are quite a few but we're planning to put more of them in the front yard.

[GilesMM]

If the battery investment makes great economic sense in your area due to peak pricing, go for it. But that is not about backup power.

That's exactly the point being made.  From both an economic and environmental impact stance, installing a battery backup system is extremely expense with a very big footprint; there are much cheaper and lower impact options.

But to conclude that it makes no economic sense ignores that the battery can be useful in other ways which can offer a ROI.  Compare that to a generator (portable or standby) which *only* does one thing and hopefully *only* gets used ~ 1% of the year on average.

The obvious problem with using a car's battery for this function (other than the complexities and cost of bi-directional charging) is that your car needs to be physically there and plugged in.  It can work for WFH or retired types, but most drive their cars somewhere else during the day, which is exactly when you'd want your PVs to be pumping energy into a battery system of some kind.

I don't see the utility for backup power for average people in cities where outages can be years apart and only last an hour or two, perhaps, as you say, while nobody is even home.  More typical, from my experience, is people looking for backup power during storm events when they are *trapped* at home for days or weeks without electricity. The more rural one is, the longer it takes to restore power. Our old house lost it every winter for 3-10 days during ice events during which we could hardly walk, much less drive.  Friends in Texas, FL and CA have dealt with similar storm disasters.  One group did very well for four days using only their Ioniq, which they were able to drive to a charging station if the outage extended.  AC is quite a challenge, power-wise. Furnaces much less so if they are gas.

[bacchi]

  AC is quite a challenge, power-wise.

Solution: A window unit with an inverter compressor and low starting amps. The Midea u-shaped one works fine for this. Maybe a 600w panel?

Obviously, everyone will have to crowd into one room but ya gotta do what ya gotta do.

[alsoknownasDean]

I've got a bit of a decision to make in the next few months.

My last gas-burning device is a smallish 135L water heater. I'm keen to get rid of it.

The question will be what to replace it with.

Option A is a heat pump, but heat pump water heaters on the market here are generally either cheapish all in one units (maybe $2000 installed after subsidies) or $5000+ split units (which are well regarded), there aren't many cheaper split units. As the water heater is outside right next to a bedroom/study window, I'm not keen on the noise from an all in one unit.

Option B is to get a conventional electric water heater, and a solar system with a diverter to run the water heater from excess solar. That is probably a bit more (maybe $2000 installed for the electric water heater (HP units are eligible for subsidies that the resistive wouldn't be), $800 for a diverter and $5-6k for a 6.6kW solar system), but for most of the year that'd more than cover my hot water requirements. In winter it may struggle as it's generally quite cloudy here over winter, but I could always set it to draw from the grid.

Currently the gas has a daily rate of 93c per day and on a per unit of energy basis is just under half the price of electricity. Solar feed in tariffs are low (~5c) and getting lower (3.3c minimum from July 1) and without the water heating on my current electricity usage solar has around an 8 year payback.

I'm leaning towards Option B as Option A would save around 3000kWh of energy compared to a resistive electric on grid power, whereas option B would had that 3000kWh of extra usage largely offset by ~8000kWh per annum of extra energy.

As for the car, I've got a reliable 20 year old ICE. I don't think the answer to a $250 per month fuel bill is an $800 per month car payment. Maybe I'll see what's on the used market in a couple of years.

[RWD]

I've got a bit of a decision to make in the next few months.

My last gas-burning device is a smallish 135L water heater. I'm keen to get rid of it.

The question will be what to replace it with.

Are you sure a heat pump water heater would be too loud? I've read the noise is a bit like a refrigerator.

As for the car, I've got a reliable 20 year old ICE. I don't think the answer to a $250 per month fuel bill is an $800 per month car payment. Maybe I'll see what's on the used market in a couple of years.

Presumably you can lease an EV for less than what you're paying for gas.
https://insideevs.com/news/713621/2024-hyundai-ioniq-6-cheapest-lease-us/

Over half of used EVs are already cheaper than $30k. We're definitely reaching the point where the price barrier to entry is going away.

[alsoknownasDean]

I've got a bit of a decision to make in the next few months.

My last gas-burning device is a smallish 135L water heater. I'm keen to get rid of it.

The question will be what to replace it with.

Are you sure a heat pump water heater would be too loud? I've read the noise is a bit like a refrigerator.

As for the car, I've got a reliable 20 year old ICE. I don't think the answer to a $250 per month fuel bill is an $800 per month car payment. Maybe I'll see what's on the used market in a couple of years.

Presumably you can lease an EV for less than what you're paying for gas.
https://insideevs.com/news/713621/2024-hyundai-ioniq-6-cheapest-lease-us/

Over half of used EVs are already cheaper than $30k. We're definitely reaching the point where the price barrier to entry is going away.

It's worth a look, but I'd likely be only two or three metres away from the water heater, with a window that's often open in the warmer months. Might affect my work meetings somewhat. At least with a split unit I could put part of it on the roof. Might be OK if I can schedule it to work in the mornings and evenings.

Yeah lease deals here aren't quite so cheap, although at least with novated leases they can be paid for partially from pre-tax salary. An entry level new EV (something like an MG4 51kWh) would set me back around $650 a month.

Yeah the used EV market in Australia is a bit different...2019 Hyundai Kona electrics are still A$35k. Under A$30k it's basically grey import Leafs and the odd pre-facelift MG ZS EV, neither of which have enough range for my uses.

Sent from my Pixel 7 Pro using Tapatalk

[RWD]

Ah, right, Australia dollars. A$30k is $20k USD, so not surprising you can't find much for that yet.

[alsoknownasDean]

Ah, right, Australia dollars. A$30k is $20k USD, so not surprising you can't find much for that yet.

Yeah and at that price it's not a big leap to an entry level new EV...an MG4 now starts at A$39990 drive away.

We'll see in a couple of years.

Sent from my Pixel 7 Pro using Tapatalk

[nereo]

I've got a bit of a decision to make in the next few months.

My last gas-burning device is a smallish 135L water heater. I'm keen to get rid of it.

The question will be what to replace it with.

Are you sure a heat pump water heater would be too loud? I've read the noise is a bit like a refrigerator.

As for the car, I've got a reliable 20 year old ICE. I don't think the answer to a $250 per month fuel bill is an $800 per month car payment. Maybe I'll see what's on the used market in a couple of years.

Presumably you can lease an EV for less than what you're paying for gas.
https://insideevs.com/news/713621/2024-hyundai-ioniq-6-cheapest-lease-us/

Over half of used EVs are already cheaper than $30k. We're definitely reaching the point where the price barrier to entry is going away.

So i just installed a hot water heat pump (50g AO Smith ).  I can confirm that the noise isn’t any more than a typical desk fan set to its lowest setting. I’d have no problem have a conversation on my cell standing half a meter away (if I wanted to have a conversation in my basement-crawlspace). We cannot hear it in the kitchen which is located directly above and isn’t soundproofed in any way.

Other brands may be louder

[NorCal]

I've got a bit of a decision to make in the next few months.

My last gas-burning device is a smallish 135L water heater. I'm keen to get rid of it.

The question will be what to replace it with.

Are you sure a heat pump water heater would be too loud? I've read the noise is a bit like a refrigerator.

As for the car, I've got a reliable 20 year old ICE. I don't think the answer to a $250 per month fuel bill is an $800 per month car payment. Maybe I'll see what's on the used market in a couple of years.

Presumably you can lease an EV for less than what you're paying for gas.
https://insideevs.com/news/713621/2024-hyundai-ioniq-6-cheapest-lease-us/

Over half of used EVs are already cheaper than $30k. We're definitely reaching the point where the price barrier to entry is going away.

So i just installed a hot water heat pump (50g AO Smith ).  I can confirm that the noise isn’t any more than a typical desk fan set to its lowest setting. I’d have no problem have a conversation on my cell standing half a meter away (if I wanted to have a conversation in my basement-crawlspace). We cannot hear it in the kitchen which is located directly above and isn’t soundproofed in any way.

Other brands may be louder

That’s really good to hear. I also have a 50 gallon AO Smith, but installed in 2021. It is quite loud. It’s fine for me in my basement, but I wouldn’t recommend it in other houses.

That really increases the number of homes a HPWH could work in if they’ve solved the noise issue.

[middo]

I've got a bit of a decision to make in the next few months.

My last gas-burning device is a smallish 135L water heater. I'm keen to get rid of it.

The question will be what to replace it with.

Option A is a heat pump, but heat pump water heaters on the market here are generally either cheapish all in one units (maybe $2000 installed after subsidies) or $5000+ split units (which are well regarded), there aren't many cheaper split units. As the water heater is outside right next to a bedroom/study window, I'm not keen on the noise from an all in one unit.

Option B is to get a conventional electric water heater, and a solar system with a diverter to run the water heater from excess solar. That is probably a bit more (maybe $2000 installed for the electric water heater (HP units are eligible for subsidies that the resistive wouldn't be), $800 for a diverter and $5-6k for a 6.6kW solar system), but for most of the year that'd more than cover my hot water requirements. In winter it may struggle as it's generally quite cloudy here over winter, but I could always set it to draw from the grid.

Currently the gas has a daily rate of 93c per day and on a per unit of energy basis is just under half the price of electricity. Solar feed in tariffs are low (~5c) and getting lower (3.3c minimum from July 1) and without the water heating on my current electricity usage solar has around an 8 year payback.

I'm leaning towards Option B as Option A would save around 3000kWh of energy compared to a resistive electric on grid power, whereas option B would had that 3000kWh of extra usage largely offset by ~8000kWh per annum of extra energy.

As for the car, I've got a reliable 20 year old ICE. I don't think the answer to a $250 per month fuel bill is an $800 per month car payment. Maybe I'll see what's on the used market in a couple of years.

We went for option B a couple of years ago, courtesy of Solahart.  While it works well, and I got rebates etc, we paid $10K for a hot water and solar panels.  In hindsight, it would have been better (but not cheaper) to get a solar system and battery and a heat pump, as energy pricing in the evenings have been rising and rising.  We still pay very little for electricity, mostly just the connection cost, we still will pay in total around $1200 a year.  Note that we have no gas at all, so all heating and cooking is electric and part of this cost.  Two people not work from home.

[Just Joe]

My hapless neighbor wanted a gas hookup for his generator and the local gas company told him it would cost him $17,000 to get the line from the street to his house. He balked but asked if he could trench and install his own line. They said no way. So he went with a diesel tank instead.

That's funny. My local gas company told me they would deliver the gas line and I could trench it or they would trench it for the first 150 ft at no cost. We have a large lot so I ended up paying  to finish the trench - $1500 or so all in.

Long term we'll be gas free but this project was to get off propane which was very expensive on cost per gallon. The propane choice came from the previous owners as there was no gas line available to tap into.

Annual cost of propane was ~$2000+.
Annual cost of nat gas is ~$200.

Had to make a list of adjustments like switching to a HPWH. Love that thing. Basement is far drier b/c of it.

We live in a rural area. Can't rely on any services during a weather event so need the gas for a few more years.

Eventually we'll own a BEV that can power the house for a few days. Then the gas and the generator will go away once the generator wears out.

[Just Joe]

So i just installed a hot water heat pump (50g AO Smith ).  I can confirm that the noise isn’t any more than a typical desk fan set to its lowest setting. I’d have no problem have a conversation on my cell standing half a meter away (if I wanted to have a conversation in my basement-crawlspace). We cannot hear it in the kitchen which is located directly above and isn’t soundproofed in any way.

Same-same. Love that thing.