Author Topic: tIRA+taxable vs. Roth+taxable vs. taxable only  (Read 3160 times)

cd86

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tIRA+taxable vs. Roth+taxable vs. taxable only
« on: November 16, 2015, 04:43:58 PM »
Hey, everyone, this is my first post - I have been perusing the forums for some time and wanted to get some input on my situation. Here are my stats:

- Age: 29
- Tax Status: Married, filing jointly (with 1 child and possibly another one in 2016)
- Tax Bracket: 10-15% (depending on deductible contributions)
- Currently 8K in Roth IRA
- Currently 4K in 401k (I contribute just enough to get the match - poor investment options)
- Currently 20K cash on hand
- want to become FI by early to mid-40s

I have about 23K/year to invest, so here are the three strategies I am considering to become FI:

#1)
 - Max out tIRAs (personal and spousal) each year and use the Roth Conversion Ladder (GoCurryCracker method)
 - Invest 12K in dividend growth stocks in a taxable account (Robinhood)
 - This strategy qualifies me for a larger Earned Income Credit (EIC), Medicaid for my spouse, and CHIP for my children

#2)
 - Max out Roths (personal and spousal) each year
 - Invest 12K in dividend growth stocks in a taxable account
 - This strategy qualifies me for a smaller EIC, ACA subsidies for my wife ($170/mo for coverage), and CHIP for my children

#3)
 - Forego the Roth and tIRA
 - Invest 23K/year in dividend growth stocks in a taxable account (DividendMantra method)
 - This strategy still qualifies me for a small EIC, ACA subsidies for my wife, and CHIP for my children

Which strategy would suit my situation best? I will need roughly $1500/mo to be FI.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2015, 05:29:53 PM by cd86 »

MDM

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Re: tIRA+taxable vs. Roth+taxable vs. taxable only
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2015, 07:49:52 PM »
Currently 4K in 401k (I contribute just enough to get the match - poor investment options)
cd86, welcome to the forum.  See http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/to-401k-or-not-to-401k-that-is-the-question-43459/.  Might be a good idea despite the options.

Quote
I have about 23K/year to invest, so here are the three strategies I am considering to become FI:
...Which strategy would suit my situation best?
Usually, the use of all your tax-advantaged space before investing anything in a taxable account is best.  It may be that your 401k options really are terrible, but going with "innocent until proven guilty," could you list those options?

Below are the usual rules of thumb.  In the lists, thinking "first your 457 (if you have one), then your 401k and/or 403b" wherever "401k" appears is likely correct.   
Differences of a few tenths of a percent are not important when applicable for only a few years (in other words, these are guidelines not rules).   
   
WHAT   
0. Establish an emergency fund to your satisfaction   
1. Contribute to 401k up to any company match   
2. Pay off any debts with interest rates ~5% or more above the 10-year Treasury note yield.   
3. Max HSA    
4. Max Traditional IRA or Roth (or backdoor Roth) based on income level   
5. Max 401k (if 401k fees are lower than available in an IRA, or if you need the 401k deduction to be eligible for a tIRA, swap #4 and #5)   
6. Fund mega backdoor Roth if applicable   
7. Pay off any debts with interest rates ~3% or more above the 10-year Treasury note yield.   
8. Invest in a taxable account with any extra.   
   
WHY   
0. Give yourself at least enough buffer to avoid worries about bouncing checks   
1. Company match rates are likely the highest percent return you can get on your money   
2. When the guaranteed return is this high, take it.   
3. HSA funds are totally tax free when used for medical expenses, making the HSA better than either traditional or Roth IRAs.   
4. Rule of thumb: traditional if current marginal rate is 25% or higher; Roth if 10% or lower; flip a coin in between (or see   
   http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/deciding-between-roth-and-traditional-ira-based-on-marginal-tax-rate/
   if you want even more details on that topic).  See also
   http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/case-study-overwhelming-student-loan-debt-how-would-you-get-started/msg868845/#msg868845
   and other posts in that thread about exceptions to the rule.
5. See #4 for choice of traditional or Roth for 401k   
6. Applicability depends on the rules for the specific 401k   
7. Again, take the risk-free return if high enough   
8. Because earnings, even if taxed, are beneficial   
   
The emergency fund is your "no risk" money.  You might consider one of these online banks: http://www.magnifymoney.com/blog/earning-interest/best-online-savings-accounts275921001   
   
See http://pages.stern.nyu.edu/~adamodar/New_Home_Page/datafile/histretSP.html for some data on historical returns.   

teen persuasion

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Re: tIRA+taxable vs. Roth+taxable vs. taxable only
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2015, 07:31:49 AM »

#1)
 - Max out tIRAs (personal and spousal) each year and use the Roth Conversion Ladder (GoCurryCracker method)
 - Invest 12K in dividend growth stocks in a taxable account (Robinhood)
 - This strategy qualifies me for a larger Earned Income Credit (EIC), Medicaid for my spouse, and CHIP for my children



Are you certain that using tIRAs increases your EITC?  We've had better success focusing on 401k contributions.  Look closely at the EITC calculations - they test both line 7 wages AND AGI, and you get the smaller EITC amount.  TIRA contributions will only reduce your AGI, not your line 7 wages.  401k contributions will reduce BOTH.

nereo

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Re: tIRA+taxable vs. Roth+taxable vs. taxable only
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2015, 07:51:16 AM »
Curious why you've decided to invest all taxable income in a "divident growth account".

#3 is your worst option
#1 will almost certainly be optimal with your anticipated FI expenses
#2 is a fine solution if you can't be bothered to set up a conversion ladder (though it really isn't that hard).

Otherwise, +1 to what MDM said - read and understand his boilerplate advice, it's very good.

teen persuasion

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Re: tIRA+taxable vs. Roth+taxable vs. taxable only
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2015, 08:10:18 AM »
Oh, initially forgot about your focus on taxable accounts.  Investment income over a certain amount ($3350?) makes you completely ineligible for EITC.

What we've done so far is to push 401k contributions and HSA contributions as high as possible, reducing AGI to increase our EITC (and college aid).  Our state matches EITC at 30%, and CTC at 33%, further increasing our refundable tax credits.  Then I turn around and use the refunds to contribute to Roth IRAs for both of us - there is no further tax benefit to using tIRA for us.

cd86

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Re: tIRA+taxable vs. Roth+taxable vs. taxable only
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2015, 02:42:00 PM »
Thanks for the suggestions, everyone - I am avoiding contributing more than the match to my 401k due to my preference for socially-conscious funds. I think I am leaning now toward option #2, especially since I will be in the 0% marginal tax bracket for 2015 and either in it or close to in it for 2016.