Author Topic: My Marginal Tax Rate is >60%  (Read 11976 times)

madamwitty

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My Marginal Tax Rate is >60%
« on: June 20, 2016, 03:32:02 PM »
I recently took on a new project at work, and as part of the deal I increased my work hours from 20 hrs/wk to 25 hrs/wk. This give me a pay bump that puts my family's Federal AGI from ~$105,000 ~$110,000 to ~$120,000. For most of this range, here are the tax implications:

25% Federal tax bracket
9.3% CA tax bracket
15% (Lose $50 child tax credit per $1000, x3 kids)
13.75% (Lose $275 of partial tIRA deduction per $1000, in the 25% bracket, x2 adults)

63.05% TOTAL

(I know, *technically* my marginal rate doesn't include the tIRA phaseout because I am just over the $118,000 phaseout range, but most of the pay bump was affected.)

Is this right? What a bummer!

OK, let's end on a positive note. I am extremely grateful to be in a position to save over $70,000 this year toward FIRE. And, those extra hours I am supposed to work are from home, as needed - no extra cost for childcare. Maybe I'll only work 40% of the extra hours :-)
« Last Edit: June 20, 2016, 05:04:43 PM by madamwitty »

JLee

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Re: My Marginal Tax Rate is >60%
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2016, 03:38:30 PM »
Loss of a deduction does not equate an additional tax.  You're now paying 25% federal tax on something you weren't before, but you're certainly not paying 60%.

KarefulKactus15

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Re: My Marginal Tax Rate is >60%
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2016, 03:38:54 PM »
I read all of that, and my only thought was " wow I wish I could work 25 hours a week..."

ender

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Re: My Marginal Tax Rate is >60%
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2016, 03:47:11 PM »
Cry me a river.

Don't forget FICA taxes, too.

madamwitty

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Re: My Marginal Tax Rate is >60%
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2016, 05:04:06 PM »
Cry me a river.

Don't forget FICA taxes, too.

Ah, yes, between FICA and SDI, that would put me above 70%. I think I'm allowed to be disappointed without being considered complainy-pants. I know I'm incredibly blessed.

Loss of a deduction does not equate an additional tax.  You're now paying 25% federal tax on something you weren't before, but you're certainly not paying 60%.

Sure, I used the term "marginal tax" loosely, but the fact is that I am grossing $10,000 more but my take home pay increases only $3,000. I think that's notable, and probably something I should have taken into account before agreeing to extra hours.

I read all of that, and my only thought was " wow I wish I could work 25 hours a week..."

You *could* work 25 hours a week. Maybe it would take changing jobs, changing careers, moving, delaying FIRE, etc. but then again...maybe it's not that high on your list of priorities. Everything has tradeoffs. I've made mine.

CanuckExpat

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Re: My Marginal Tax Rate is >60%
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2016, 05:06:00 PM »
Are you working as a W2 employee or a 1099 contractor?
If the former, do you have any chance of switching to the latter? It may make things more lucrative from a tax perspective.

nereo

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Re: My Marginal Tax Rate is >60%
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2016, 05:25:15 PM »
Cry me a river.

Don't forget FICA taxes, too.

Ah, yes, between FICA and SDI, that would put me above 70%. I think I'm allowed to be disappointed without being considered complainy-pants. I know I'm incredibly blessed.

Loss of a deduction does not equate an additional tax.  You're now paying 25% federal tax on something you weren't before, but you're certainly not paying 60%.

Sure, I used the term "marginal tax" loosely, but the fact is that I am grossing $10,000 more but my take home pay increases only $3,000. I think that's notable, and probably something I should have taken into account before agreeing to extra hours.


Nope. You aren't using it 'loosely' - you are using it incorrectly and erronously.
Your marginal tax rate is the % of income taken from your next earned dollar.  If you earned one additional dollar you would get to keep a lot more than 30-40¢.  From what you've described you would be able to keep roughly 53¢, and that's including FICA and SSI. 

madamwitty

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Re: My Marginal Tax Rate is >60%
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2016, 05:38:21 PM »
Are you working as a W2 employee or a 1099 contractor?
If the former, do you have any chance of switching to the latter? It may make things more lucrative from a tax perspective.

That is an interesting thought. I am a W2 employee. I did some quick reading on 1099 contractors. My gut feeling is that 1099 status wouldn't be financially beneficial for me (and also probably not allowed), but it is an idea that will stew in my mind and maybe I will run some numbers at some point.

madamwitty

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Re: My Marginal Tax Rate is >60%
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2016, 05:44:00 PM »
Cry me a river.

Don't forget FICA taxes, too.

Ah, yes, between FICA and SDI, that would put me above 70%. I think I'm allowed to be disappointed without being considered complainy-pants. I know I'm incredibly blessed.

Loss of a deduction does not equate an additional tax.  You're now paying 25% federal tax on something you weren't before, but you're certainly not paying 60%.

Sure, I used the term "marginal tax" loosely, but the fact is that I am grossing $10,000 more but my take home pay increases only $3,000. I think that's notable, and probably something I should have taken into account before agreeing to extra hours.


Nope. You aren't using it 'loosely' - you are using it incorrectly and erronously.
Your marginal tax rate is the % of income taken from your next earned dollar.  If you earned one additional dollar you would get to keep a lot more than 30-40¢.  From what you've described you would be able to keep roughly 53¢, and that's including FICA and SSI.

Feel free to suggest an alternate term or phrase and I will happily change the title of my post.

MDM

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Re: My Marginal Tax Rate is >60%
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2016, 06:55:28 PM »
Sure, I used the term "marginal tax" loosely, but the fact is that I am grossing $10,000 more but my take home pay increases only $3,000. I think that's notable, and probably something I should have taken into account before agreeing to extra hours.
Nope. You aren't using it 'loosely' - you are using it incorrectly and erronously.
Your marginal tax rate is the % of income taken from your next earned dollar.  If you earned one additional dollar you would get to keep a lot more than 30-40¢.  From what you've described you would be able to keep roughly 53¢, and that's including FICA and SSI.

Interesting question.  Might have to side with madamwitty here, using logic similar to that described in https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Marginal_tax_rate.

The chart below shows the change in total taxes (federal + state + FICA) divided by MW's income as that income goes from $0 to $36K/yr, assuming
- other wages of $90K (so $10,000 on the chart is $100K total family income)
- MFJ with 3 under-17 children
- Flat state tax rate of 9.3%
- no dependent care deduction
- Child tax credits taken as allowed
- maximum allowable tIRA deduction taken*

This is not the same as the marginal savings rate one would use in a "Roth vs. traditional" analysis, but it seems a perfectly valid type of "marginal tax rate": how much of the extra earnings the MW family loses to taxes.




*in case anyone really wants to do a similar analysis, this was jury-rigged in cell B12 using "=MAX(0,MIN(1,(H39-(B10-SUM(B13:B15)+SUM(B24:B29)+B34+$U$43/12)*12)/(H39-G39)))*11000/12"

« Last Edit: June 20, 2016, 09:08:11 PM by MDM »

CanuckExpat

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Re: My Marginal Tax Rate is >60%
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2016, 09:04:48 PM »
Are you working as a W2 employee or a 1099 contractor?
If the former, do you have any chance of switching to the latter? It may make things more lucrative from a tax perspective.

That is an interesting thought. I am a W2 employee. I did some quick reading on 1099 contractors. My gut feeling is that 1099 status wouldn't be financially beneficial for me (and also probably not allowed), but it is an idea that will stew in my mind and maybe I will run some numbers at some point.

What did you find as advantages and disadvantages? I haven't read too much into it as my employer/staffing agency wouldn't play ball on 1099 vs W2, but I was thinking main advantage would possibility of putting away more in a Solo 401k tax deferred.

Really depends on if you can be hired as a 1099 vs W2, and how much you might value employers provided benefits (healthcare, etc)

Drifterrider

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Re: My Marginal Tax Rate is >60%
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2016, 06:26:06 AM »
I make the salary you make and I only pay 12% federal tax.

I think you are "working the numbers" to make it appear you are heavily taxed.  You failed to mention all your deductibles and exemptions.


marty998

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Re: My Marginal Tax Rate is >60%
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2016, 07:00:47 AM »
It's called "effective marginal tax rates". Significant problem in Australia for 2nd earners (usually women) who have children.

These people are taxed at their marginal rate (usually 34.5%), then also have various welfare benefits withdrawn as the household income rises (childcare credits, family tax benefit payments, allowances etc).

When most people do the sums they find they are only keeping 5-20% of every additional dollar earned due to the interaction of the tax and welfare system. It's a disincentive to find gainful employment, however, the alternative of not withdrawing benefits is a worse outcome which contributes to unsustainable welfare spending by governments.

Million2000

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Re: My Marginal Tax Rate is >60%
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2016, 07:08:51 AM »
Cry me a river.

Don't forget FICA taxes, too.

Ah, yes, between FICA and SDI, that would put me above 70%. I think I'm allowed to be disappointed without being considered complainy-pants. I know I'm incredibly blessed.

Loss of a deduction does not equate an additional tax.  You're now paying 25% federal tax on something you weren't before, but you're certainly not paying 60%.

Sure, I used the term "marginal tax" loosely, but the fact is that I am grossing $10,000 more but my take home pay increases only $3,000. I think that's notable, and probably something I should have taken into account before agreeing to extra hours.


Nope. You aren't using it 'loosely' - you are using it incorrectly and erronously.
Your marginal tax rate is the % of income taken from your next earned dollar.  If you earned one additional dollar you would get to keep a lot more than 30-40¢.  From what you've described you would be able to keep roughly 53¢, and that's including FICA and SSI.

Feel free to suggest an alternate term or phrase and I will happily change the title of my post.

I would also like to know this term. The only word that comes to mind is "tax cliff". While I am not in the same situation as the OP, I've had other situations where the circumstances combined with income level had weird results. In my own past situations the retirement savers credit drops off when you have AGI over $61,500 for a married couple. By just making a few dollars more a year, I pay $400 more in tax. The guys here will dispute the technical definition, but the end result is you are paying a disproportionate amount of tax because of the extra income you're earning. Using the verbiage from one of the posts below, if I earned one extra dollar above $61,500 in AGI in my situation, I don't keep any of it, instead I have a liability of $400 more and my tax bill goes up. To me that is a marginal tax increase. 

MDM

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Re: My Marginal Tax Rate is >60%
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2016, 12:42:33 PM »
I make the salary you make and I only pay 12% federal tax.
As there is no 12% bracket, you are talking about an "average" or "overall" tax rate, correct?  That differs, often significantly, from a marginal rate.

Quote
I think you are "working the numbers" to make it appear you are heavily taxed.  You failed to mention all your deductibles and exemptions.
Don't know anything about madamwitty other than what was in her post.  Taking the standard deduction, personal exemptions, and child tax credits into account gives the chart shown in this post, and confirms her post.

If you can identify something incorrect in that calculation, that would be helpful.  Otherwise MW's family is indeed heavily taxed on the portion of income she describes.

MDM

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Re: My Marginal Tax Rate is >60%
« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2016, 12:47:35 PM »
Feel free to suggest an alternate term or phrase and I will happily change the title of my post.
I would also like to know this term.

"Marginal tax rate" fits.  Identifying the specific amount of income to which that rate applies is important.  From Marginal tax rate - Bogleheads:
Quote
Marginal tax rate is the tax rate that will apply to the next marginal – or incremental – amount of income (or deductions). It is calculated by dividing the amount of additional taxes that will be due (or reduced) by the amount of income involved.

teen persuasion

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Re: My Marginal Tax Rate is >60%
« Reply #16 on: June 21, 2016, 12:50:31 PM »
Definitely siding with Madam Witty here.  This is an issue at low incomes as well, due to phaseout of credits like EITC.  Consider a .21 phaseout on the EITC, .063 phaseout on the state version of EITC (matched 30% of fed), .10 fed tax, .04 state tax, .0765 FICA (HSA contributions are free of FICA) and you are nearly at 50% effective marginal rate.

dandarc

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Re: My Marginal Tax Rate is >60%
« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2016, 01:03:11 PM »
Plugging in 70K / 40K into Tax-Caster, then adding 10K to the 40K, I get a federal-income-tax-only marginal rate on that 10K of a bit over 39%.  Add 9.3% for state and 7.65% for Fica, and you're pretty well over 50%.  Federal tax bill is $7,031 initially, and jumps to $10,944 with the $10K of additional income.

Some things that might help:

1.  Earn even more money - get out of this phase-out range hell.

2.  Move to a lower-tax state.

3.  Increase 401K / 403B / 457B deferrals if you can - these things impact AGI / MAGI, and can have a double-impact due to the phase outs as OP mentions.

4.  Earn less money - maybe this high marginal rate makes it "not worth it" to you.

beltim

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Re: My Marginal Tax Rate is >60%
« Reply #18 on: June 21, 2016, 01:09:30 PM »
Cry me a river.

Don't forget FICA taxes, too.

Ah, yes, between FICA and SDI, that would put me above 70%. I think I'm allowed to be disappointed without being considered complainy-pants. I know I'm incredibly blessed.

Interestingly, if you got another $10k raise, your marginal tax rate would only be about half that.  What a weird portion of the tax code.

Basenji

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Re: My Marginal Tax Rate is >60%
« Reply #19 on: June 21, 2016, 01:30:19 PM »

OK, let's end on a positive note. I am extremely grateful to be in a position to save over $70,000 this year toward FIRE.

I'd focus on that positive. I remember reading a Tightwad Gazette case study in her book where the marginal tax bite convinced a woman to quit her job and have the family live on the husband's salary because by the time she paid childcare and the extra taxes, her take home was negligible. You're in a good spot if you can save 70k and work at home and work 25 hrs per week. Good for you! It is a valuable example, however, of the importance of understanding one's finances/tax implication before committing to a new job/situation. I'll remember this when contemplating post-FIRE part-time work. Good lesson.

Cressida

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Re: My Marginal Tax Rate is >60%
« Reply #20 on: June 21, 2016, 03:27:16 PM »
It's called "effective marginal tax rates". Significant problem in Australia for 2nd earners (usually women) who have children.

These people are taxed at their marginal rate (usually 34.5%), then also have various welfare benefits withdrawn as the household income rises (childcare credits, family tax benefit payments, allowances etc).

Since you say that these earners are taxed "at their marginal rate," I'm going to assume that you're talking about a MFJ situation. In that case, it is not possible for one spouse to have a different effective tax rate than the other. Joint income is taxed jointly.

I remember reading a Tightwad Gazette case study in her book where the marginal tax bite convinced a woman to quit her job and have the family live on the husband's salary because by the time she paid childcare and the extra taxes, her take home was negligible.

See above. Her take home only appears negligible because this analysis erroneously assigns all of the tax-free space to her husband.

MDM

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Re: My Marginal Tax Rate is >60%
« Reply #21 on: June 21, 2016, 03:54:39 PM »
Her take home only appears negligible because this analysis erroneously assigns all of the tax-free space to her husband.
Good point.  They could instead assume her salary is fixed and calculate the take home fraction of his salary.

Removing any gender-specific terms, if a couple has one earner who could earn X and another who could earn 2X, the marginal rate on "X earnings" is likely to be higher (alternatively, the take-home fraction is likely to be lower) than for "2X earnings" because starting from a higher base tends to incur a higher marginal rate.

madamwitty

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Re: My Marginal Tax Rate is >60%
« Reply #22 on: June 21, 2016, 04:29:28 PM »




Neat chart! It helps take the sting out (a little) to see that the 70% *effective* marginal doesn't extend across the entire $10,000 range.

Are you working as a W2 employee or a 1099 contractor?
If the former, do you have any chance of switching to the latter? It may make things more lucrative from a tax perspective.

That is an interesting thought. I am a W2 employee. I did some quick reading on 1099 contractors. My gut feeling is that 1099 status wouldn't be financially beneficial for me (and also probably not allowed), but it is an idea that will stew in my mind and maybe I will run some numbers at some point.

What did you find as advantages and disadvantages? I haven't read too much into it as my employer/staffing agency wouldn't play ball on 1099 vs W2, but I was thinking main advantage would possibility of putting away more in a Solo 401k tax deferred.

Really depends on if you can be hired as a 1099 vs W2, and how much you might value employers provided benefits (healthcare, etc)

I didn't think about the possibility for Solo 401k, that indeed could make a difference. The reading I did focused mainly on business deductions making up for the additional FICA taxes you'd have to cover. Even if I were able to negotiate a higher hourly rate to make up for all the stuff they no longer pay (FICA, medical insurance, 403b matching), my situation would allow for very few business deductions. Larger cap on on Solo 401k (compared to my current 403b cap) could indeed make a big difference.  That said, I doubt they'd let me do it in my current role, but it's something to think about.

I make the salary you make and I only pay 12% federal tax.
As there is no 12% bracket, you are talking about an "average" or "overall" tax rate, correct?  That differs, often significantly, from a marginal rate.

Right! My average family's overall tax rate is 7.3% of gross earnings, thanks to lots of pre-tax benefits: maxing out contributions for two 403(b)s, medical and dental insurance premiums, dependent care spending account.

The point of my post is NOT that I "pay too much in taxes", but rather that the benefit of the extra $10,000 I'll be earning this year is very diluted compared to the previous $10,000 or next $10,000 I could earn. I found it surprising, and thought others might too.

Definitely siding with Madam Witty here.  This is an issue at low incomes as well, due to phaseout of credits like EITC.  Consider a .21 phaseout on the EITC, .063 phaseout on the state version of EITC (matched 30% of fed), .10 fed tax, .04 state tax, .0765 FICA (HSA contributions are free of FICA) and you are nearly at 50% effective marginal rate.

Definitely some similarities here! My first inclination is to say that imposing a high marginal rate on low income seems like a Very Bad Thing, but it makes me wonder if it unavoidable given all the constraints. It reminds me of an MMM discussion on the marriage "penalty", where three seemingly good objectives for the tax code cannot all be satisfied at the same time.

madamwitty

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Re: My Marginal Tax Rate is >60%
« Reply #23 on: June 21, 2016, 04:50:54 PM »
Plugging in 70K / 40K into Tax-Caster, then adding 10K to the 40K, I get a federal-income-tax-only marginal rate on that 10K of a bit over 39%.  Add 9.3% for state and 7.65% for Fica, and you're pretty well over 50%.  Federal tax bill is $7,031 initially, and jumps to $10,944 with the $10K of additional income.

Some things that might help:

1.  Earn even more money - get out of this phase-out range hell.

2.  Move to a lower-tax state.

3.  Increase 401K / 403B / 457B deferrals if you can - these things impact AGI / MAGI, and can have a double-impact due to the phase outs as OP mentions.

4.  Earn less money - maybe this high marginal rate makes it "not worth it" to you.

Yep, those are some of the things I've considered.

I am basically taking approach #1 next year, when my increased work schedule applies to the whole year, plus annual pay raise, our earnings will bust out of this purgatory and marginal taxes back to the ~40% range where they belong. But, if I decide to reduce my work schedule again (option #4 - assuming I even have the opportunity, I have found it is much harder to decrease hours than to increase) I will definitely be taking this into account.

Moving to a lower tax state (#2), uprooting my family doesn't seem worth it with 3 years to FIRE (plus, my job is awesome).
Increasing 403(b) contributions (#3) is out, we are already maxed! Unless Solo 401k with 1099 status...(again, I don't think they'd let me do it.)

It is a valuable example, however, of the importance of understanding one's finances/tax implication before committing to a new job/situation. I'll remember this when contemplating post-FIRE part-time work. Good lesson.

Exactly why I made this post! Glad you found it interesting.

maizefolk

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Re: My Marginal Tax Rate is >60%
« Reply #24 on: June 21, 2016, 04:52:45 PM »
See above. Her take home only appears negligible because this analysis erroneously assigns all of the tax-free space to her husband.

Trying to wrap my head around this. Assume a married couple filing jointly. Spouse #1 makes $40,000/year. Spouse #2 makes $40,000/year. If we're evaluating how much post-tax income the couple would lose if spouse #1 stopped working, the tax free space gets used by spouse #2. If we're evaluating how much post-tax income the couple would lose if spouse #2 stopped working, the tax free space gets used by spouse #1.

If I force the tax free space to be split equally between the two members of the married couple in this analysis, I get an answer that makes it look like the couple would be worse off with one income than they actually would be.

ender

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Re: My Marginal Tax Rate is >60%
« Reply #25 on: June 21, 2016, 05:00:27 PM »
Keep in mind too the IRA deduction as a marginal rate increase is a bit misleading, since you can still use a Roth IRA. It's not a 100% loss of the deductibility because you are still able to have future tax preferential treatment on that money.

MDM

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Re: My Marginal Tax Rate is >60%
« Reply #26 on: June 21, 2016, 06:29:46 PM »
Trying to wrap my head around this. Assume a married couple filing jointly. Spouse #1 makes $40,000/year. Spouse #2 makes $40,000/year. If we're evaluating how much post-tax income the couple would lose if spouse #1 stopped working, the tax free space gets used by spouse #2. If we're evaluating how much post-tax income the couple would lose if spouse #2 stopped working, the tax free space gets used by spouse #1.
That all seems correct.

Quote
If I force the tax free space to be split equally between the two members of the married couple in this analysis, I get an answer that makes it look like the couple would be worse off with one income than they actually would be.
How are you doing the forced split?  In an MFJ return, the two incomes are added and the deductions and exemptions taken on the total....

maizefolk

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Re: My Marginal Tax Rate is >60%
« Reply #27 on: June 21, 2016, 06:50:04 PM »
@MDM

That's what I thought/think as well. However, cressida's comment about erroneously assigning tax free space made is sound like they're looking at the math differently.

Cressida

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Re: My Marginal Tax Rate is >60%
« Reply #28 on: June 22, 2016, 12:50:23 AM »
maizeman, you're right, the math regarding the tax owed is the same.

What I was trying to clarify is that if you don't allocate the tax-free space to both earners, you can mistakenly think that a second income is being eaten away by taxes more than it actually is. And when I say "allocate the tax-free space," I just mean in your personal analysis of your own taxes, not in anything you send to the IRS.

MDM

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Re: My Marginal Tax Rate is >60%
« Reply #29 on: June 22, 2016, 01:13:01 AM »
... if you don't allocate the tax-free space to both earners, you can mistakenly think that a second income is being eaten away by taxes more than it actually is.
How would you allocate it in the following two situations, both having persons A and B who file MFJ, A makes $50K/yr and B makes $0?
1) A gets a second job paying $25K/yr
2) B gets a job paying $25K/yr

Seems the $25K would be eaten the same amount by taxes regardless of who earns it...?

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Re: My Marginal Tax Rate is >60%
« Reply #30 on: June 22, 2016, 04:46:34 AM »
It's called "effective marginal tax rates". Significant problem in Australia for 2nd earners (usually women) who have children.

These people are taxed at their marginal rate (usually 34.5%), then also have various welfare benefits withdrawn as the household income rises (childcare credits, family tax benefit payments, allowances etc).

When most people do the sums they find they are only keeping 5-20% of every additional dollar earned due to the interaction of the tax and welfare system. It's a disincentive to find gainful employment, however, the alternative of not withdrawing benefits is a worse outcome which contributes to unsustainable welfare spending by governments.
Um, but in Australia the first $18k the Second Earner Parent earns would be 0% income tax, because we're taxed individually only here, but may involve loss of the welfare benefits, resulting in a non-zero marginal tax. I would have thought generally by the time the lower earner gets into a marginal income tax rate of 34.5%, the household had already lost all of the benefits anyway?

Drifterrider

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Re: My Marginal Tax Rate is >60%
« Reply #31 on: June 22, 2016, 07:27:55 AM »
I make the salary you make and I only pay 12% federal tax.
As there is no 12% bracket, you are talking about an "average" or "overall" tax rate, correct?  That differs, often significantly, from a marginal rate.

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I think you are "working the numbers" to make it appear you are heavily taxed.  You failed to mention all your deductibles and exemptions.
Don't know anything about madamwitty other than what was in her post.  Taking the standard deduction, personal exemptions, and child tax credits into account gives the chart shown in this post, and confirms her post.

If you can identify something incorrect in that calculation, that would be helpful.  Otherwise MW's family is indeed heavily taxed on the portion of income she describes.

I don't use the term "bracket".  I paid 12% of my earnings into federal income tax.  That is the only number that really matters to me.  I can use all types of formulas to make it appear I paid more (factoring in my taxable income/non taxable  to make the rate appear higher) but I don't.  I paid 12%.

If your sales tax is 6% but some items aren't taxed (and you buy a mixed bag) your tax rate might be 6% but what you paid in sales tax would be less.

Jesstache

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Re: My Marginal Tax Rate is >60%
« Reply #32 on: June 22, 2016, 08:43:39 AM »
Wow not a lot of sympathy going on here but I can commiserate.  I am self employed and with 15.4% FICA, 9% marginal State Tax and 25% (some 28%)  marginal federal tax rate and including the cost of daycare for the days I work, I figured over 50% of my gross was going to taxes and daycare.  My husband got a huge raise that is more than my gross earnings this year (he's already over the SS limit AND his income isn't subject to self employment tax so we actually come out ahead) that was the point when I decided it wasn't worth it.  I worked enough to be able to max out my i401k this year and I'm stopping working the end of this month (3 more work days!).  The added stress of trying to get the kids up early and to daycare withoug being late for work (on site contractor) just isn't worth it.

With my daughter starting kindergarten in the fall, the idea of juggling TWO school schedules and working around the late start, early release and the many holidays they have just solidified my plan to stop working.  I'm going to enjoy volunteering at my kid's school and being there when she gets on and off the bus every day, something my parents weren't able to do for my sister and I when we were kids. 

bacchi

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Re: My Marginal Tax Rate is >60%
« Reply #33 on: June 22, 2016, 09:00:58 AM »
The added stress of trying to get the kids up early and to daycare withoug being late for work (on site contractor) just isn't worth it.

Is there such a thing as "late for work" for 1099 contractors? Seems like it violates the "when, or where" behavioral control test.

(Yeah, I know -- companies ignore the classification tests all the time.)


MDM

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Re: My Marginal Tax Rate is >60%
« Reply #34 on: June 22, 2016, 09:43:24 AM »
I don't use the term "bracket".  I paid 12% of my earnings into federal income tax.  That is the only number that really matters to me.  I can use all types of formulas to make it appear I paid more (factoring in my taxable income/non taxable  to make the rate appear higher) but I don't.  I paid 12%.
Yes, that was your average/effective/overall rate.

See Marginal Vs Effective Tax Rates And When To Use Each:
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...marginal tax rates measure the incremental tax consequences between strategies (scenario A vs scenario B), while effective tax rates measure the relative tax obligations of different people (person A vs person B) or simply a person’s total tax obligation relative to income (e.g., to understand how much of their income they keep over time). Notably, this means that while effective tax rates are useful for making evaluations of tax policy amongst the population, or understanding a tax burden over time, marginal tax rate is the right one to use for evaluating strategies and making financial planning decisions, which by definition are about determining whether scenario/plan A is better than scenario/plan B.

Cressida

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Re: My Marginal Tax Rate is >60%
« Reply #35 on: June 22, 2016, 11:41:15 AM »
... if you don't allocate the tax-free space to both earners, you can mistakenly think that a second income is being eaten away by taxes more than it actually is.
How would you allocate it in the following two situations, both having persons A and B who file MFJ, A makes $50K/yr and B makes $0?
1) A gets a second job paying $25K/yr
2) B gets a job paying $25K/yr

Seems the $25K would be eaten the same amount by taxes regardless of who earns it...?

Yes, it would. That's not in question.

In this example, let's make up some rules to keep things simple, and assume that the first $20K earned is tax-free and everything above that is taxed at 30%. Most families would analyze situation (2) as follows: If we add B's job, we're paying an additional $25K x 30% = $7.5K in taxes. That leaves $17.5K of B's salary. Since we'd have to pay $12K in daycare costs if B got a job, that leaves only $5.5K. So B is working full-time to bring home only $5.5K. That makes no sense, so B should not get a job.

But that isn't the right way to think about it. Since marriage is a joint venture and B is making 33% of the income, the tax-free space and the cost of the daycare should be allocated 33% to B. So the actual tax on B's income is ($25K - (33% of $20K)) x 30% = $5.5K. That leaves $19.5K of B's salary, which would then be reduced by 33% of the $12K daycare costs to arrive at $15.5K in take-home pay. Which makes the situation look a lot different.

If you leave the daycare out of the question (that was mostly to address Basenji's comment), the tl;dr is this:
  • The total household tax owed is $16.5K regardless.
  • If you allocate the tax-free space 100% to A (as many people do when analyzing situations like this), the tax on B's income is $7.5K.
  • If you allocate the tax-free space fairly, the tax on B's income is $5.5K.
It's not a big difference in this example, but it is a difference, and that's the point I was trying to make.

dandarc

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Re: My Marginal Tax Rate is >60%
« Reply #36 on: June 22, 2016, 11:49:32 AM »
Yeah, but you're simultaneously reducing A's take-home looking at it that way.  I guess that's a way to put skin in the game of the decision for both A & B? 

I don't know, our finances are our finances - we can analyze these things on a household level.  Conversation would go like: B goes from full-time parent to working, that means we get $5500 more in our pocket and B has a job and kid goes to daycare.  Does B want to work?  We're better off financially, by $5500 per year, right now, if B does go to work, but it isn't compelling enough that B's going to feel obligated to do it if B doesn't want to, so the deciding factor is partner B's desire to work or not.

Edit to add: another factor is "do we want kid in daycare?"  Pros and cons, but that would be weighed in before deciding.  I could see a family deciding on this route even if the immediate financial benefit was negative.  Mom wants to work, maybe long-term career prospects are better, and we think kid will like daycare / get something out of it, so lets do it.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2016, 11:55:09 AM by dandarc »

beltim

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Re: My Marginal Tax Rate is >60%
« Reply #37 on: June 22, 2016, 11:51:38 AM »
... if you don't allocate the tax-free space to both earners, you can mistakenly think that a second income is being eaten away by taxes more than it actually is.
How would you allocate it in the following two situations, both having persons A and B who file MFJ, A makes $50K/yr and B makes $0?
1) A gets a second job paying $25K/yr
2) B gets a job paying $25K/yr

Seems the $25K would be eaten the same amount by taxes regardless of who earns it...?

Yes, it would. That's not in question.

In this example, let's make up some rules to keep things simple, and assume that the first $20K earned is tax-free and everything above that is taxed at 30%. Most families would analyze situation (2) as follows: If we add B's job, we're paying an additional $25K x 30% = $7.5K in taxes. That leaves $17.5K of B's salary. Since we'd have to pay $12K in daycare costs if B got a job, that leaves only $5.5K. So B is working full-time to bring home only $5.5K. That makes no sense, so B should not get a job.

But that isn't the right way to think about it. Since marriage is a joint venture and B is making 33% of the income, the tax-free space and the cost of the daycare should be allocated 33% to B. So the actual tax on B's income is ($25K - (33% of $20K)) x 30% = $5.5K. That leaves $19.5K of B's salary, which would then be reduced by 33% of the $12K daycare costs to arrive at $15.5K in take-home pay. Which makes the situation look a lot different.

But then you're ignoring that B getting a job will also reduce A's income by taxes ($2k, if I'm following your example right) and A's portion of daycare ($8k).  Either way, the household only keeps $5.5k.

Rather than distribute taxes and costs across salaries, I think it makes more sense to look at the overall household situation.  Edit: looks like dandarc beat me to it

Cressida

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Re: My Marginal Tax Rate is >60%
« Reply #38 on: June 22, 2016, 12:58:39 PM »
I'm not "ignoring" anything. The decision made by the household to increase income by $25K will end up increasing the effective tax rate of the household. So yes, A's take-home does go down when B gets a job. It's not fair to assign a greater effective tax rate to one spouse if they're both working.

Jesstache

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Re: My Marginal Tax Rate is >60%
« Reply #39 on: June 22, 2016, 01:27:36 PM »
The added stress of trying to get the kids up early and to daycare withoug being late for work (on site contractor) just isn't worth it.

Is there such a thing as "late for work" for 1099 contractors? Seems like it violates the "when, or where" behavioral control test.

(Yeah, I know -- companies ignore the classification tests all the time.)

To be fair, no I don't have a set time I HAVE to be at work and I can even work from home if I want to (I actually really dislike working from home, yes I know it's some people's dream) but my husband works for the same company and is a W2 employee and we carpool so... it matters for him and he does not need more stress in his life.  I also willingly like to be on the same schedule and available for my non-1099 peers who come to me often with work related questions.

MDM

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Re: My Marginal Tax Rate is >60%
« Reply #40 on: June 22, 2016, 01:39:30 PM »
The decision made by the household to increase income by $25K will end up increasing the effective tax rate of the household.
Agreed.  And the marginal rate paid by the household is the same in the example given, regardless of whether A gets a second job (or increased pay at one job) or B goes from unpaid to paid, correct?

Seems we all agree that the flower smells nice, whether we call it a rose or something else....

maizefolk

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Re: My Marginal Tax Rate is >60%
« Reply #41 on: June 22, 2016, 01:41:37 PM »
I'm not "ignoring" anything. The decision made by the household to increase income by $25K will end up increasing the effective tax rate of the household. So yes, A's take-home does go down when B gets a job. It's not fair to assign a greater effective tax rate to one spouse if they're both working.

I agree it's not fair. I happen to think it would be more fair if our tax code did give each person their own set of tax brackets instead of the current system that gives marriage bonuses and/or penalties.  But allocating the tax free space equally to both partners makes A & B think they are getting a greater benefit from having both of them work instead of only one of them work than is actually the case.  Which is why I was (and still am) a bit confused by what you are saying is wrong with the first analysis.

And to clarify, the fact that our current system lumps together income from both spouses is actually giving a higher effective tax rate to both spouses, not only one. Is your concern that some people would only run this analysis for the wife's income but not for the husband's?

Cressida

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Re: My Marginal Tax Rate is >60%
« Reply #42 on: June 22, 2016, 02:50:09 PM »
The decision made by the household to increase income by $25K will end up increasing the effective tax rate of the household.
Agreed.  And the marginal rate paid by the household is the same in the example given, regardless of whether A gets a second job (or increased pay at one job) or B goes from unpaid to paid, correct?

Yes, that is correct, given that there's only one possible marginal rate in my example.

But allocating the tax free space equally to both partners makes A & B think they are getting a greater benefit from having both of them work instead of only one of them work than is actually the case.  Which is why I was (and still am) a bit confused by what you are saying is wrong with the first analysis.

I'm not sure I follow.

And to clarify, the fact that our current system lumps together income from both spouses is actually giving a higher effective tax rate to both spouses, not only one.

Yes, that's true, and it's what I said: "The decision made by the household to increase income by $25K will end up increasing the effective tax rate of the household."

Is your concern that some people would only run this analysis for the wife's income but not for the husband's?

Well, the conversation is supposed to be gender-neutral at this point, but yes, my concern is that people take A's situation as fixed and B's situation as contingent, which I think is unfair to both parties.

beltim

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Re: My Marginal Tax Rate is >60%
« Reply #43 on: June 22, 2016, 03:06:54 PM »
But allocating the tax free space equally to both partners makes A & B think they are getting a greater benefit from having both of them work instead of only one of them work than is actually the case.  Which is why I was (and still am) a bit confused by what you are saying is wrong with the first analysis.

I'm not sure I follow.

I don't want to put words in maizeman's mouth, but my confusion with your point is that the way your math works, if person B starts working, person A's income goes down.  But you only talked about person B in your examples.  To illustrate this point, consider the example of person A getting a second job.  Would you, or the average person, think about person A's second job reducing the income from person A's first job?  To me, that makes no sense.  In contrast, if you do not break it up into person A and person B income, and think only about household income, the analysis is very clear.

maizefolk

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Re: My Marginal Tax Rate is >60%
« Reply #44 on: June 22, 2016, 03:24:03 PM »
But allocating the tax free space equally to both partners makes A & B think they are getting a greater benefit from having both of them work instead of only one of them work than is actually the case.  Which is why I was (and still am) a bit confused by what you are saying is wrong with the first analysis.

I'm not sure I follow.

In your example the couple has $50k of total income, an exemption of $20k and pays 30% tax on the remainder, which produces a take home pay of $41,000.

If the tax exempt space were divided evenly between the two of them, each would have an exemption of $10k, pay 30% of $15k in tax ($4,500), and have a take home of $20,500. This suggests that if either spouse wanted to quit working for any reason, they would need to either decrease their living expenses by $20,500 or save up enough money to replace $20,500 income.

However if either spouse actually quit working, the tax owed by the couple would be only 30% of $5k = $1,500. This means the couple would have a take home pay of $23,500 and only needs to either decrease their living expenses by $17,500 or save up enough money to replace $17,500 of income before A or B could stop working.

By dividing the tax equally A & B end up working longer before either one of them can FIRE than they needed to.

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Is your concern that some people would only run this analysis for the wife's income but not for the husband's?

Well, the conversation is supposed to be gender-neutral at this point, but yes, my concern is that people take A's situation as fixed and B's situation as contingent, which I think is unfair to both parties.

Okay, well the idea that the reason we were talking past each other was that one of us was having a conversation about taxes/math and the other was having a conversation about gender roles (I specifically tried to avoid gendered pronouns and made a point about running the numbers for either party not working to avoid that diversion) was my last guess.

Sorry I cannot seem to wrap my head around what you are trying to say, we may just have to agree to disagree.

Cressida

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Re: My Marginal Tax Rate is >60%
« Reply #45 on: June 22, 2016, 03:38:55 PM »
But allocating the tax free space equally to both partners makes A & B think they are getting a greater benefit from having both of them work instead of only one of them work than is actually the case.  Which is why I was (and still am) a bit confused by what you are saying is wrong with the first analysis.

I'm not sure I follow.

In your example the couple has $50k of total income, an exemption of $20k and pays 30% tax on the remainder, which produces a take home pay of $41,000.

If the tax exempt space were divided evenly between the two of them, each would have an exemption of $10k, pay 30% of $15k in tax ($4,500), and have a take home of $20,500. This suggests that if either spouse wanted to quit working for any reason, they would need to either decrease their living expenses by $20,500 or save up enough money to replace $20,500 income.

However if either spouse actually quit working, the tax owed by the couple would be only 30% of $5k = $1,500. This means the couple would have a take home pay of $23,500 and only needs to either decrease their living expenses by $17,500 or save up enough money to replace $17,500 of income before A or B could stop working.

By dividing the tax equally A & B end up working longer before either one of them can FIRE than they needed to.

Your write-up doesn't appear to address anything I said. In my example, the couple's income is $75K, not $50K; and I suggested allocating the tax-free space as a proportion of pretax income, not equally.

I'm not going to wade through your numbers unless you specifically address what I actually wrote.

Is your concern that some people would only run this analysis for the wife's income but not for the husband's?

Well, the conversation is supposed to be gender-neutral at this point, but yes, my concern is that people take A's situation as fixed and B's situation as contingent, which I think is unfair to both parties.

Okay, well the idea that the reason we were talking past each other was that one of us was having a conversation about taxes/math and the other was having a conversation about gender roles (I specifically tried to avoid gendered pronouns and made a point about running the numbers for either party not working to avoid that diversion) was my last guess.

? Which one of us was having a conversation about gender roles? You were the one who brought that up. I was using A and B. The only time I mentioned gender was when I replied to Basenji.

Cressida

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Re: My Marginal Tax Rate is >60%
« Reply #46 on: June 22, 2016, 03:55:17 PM »
I don't want to put words in maizeman's mouth, but my confusion with your point is that the way your math works, if person B starts working, person A's income goes down.  But you only talked about person B in your examples.  To illustrate this point, consider the example of person A getting a second job.  Would you, or the average person, think about person A's second job reducing the income from person A's first job?  To me, that makes no sense.  In contrast, if you do not break it up into person A and person B income, and think only about household income, the analysis is very clear.

My point is that it is not fair, in an internal analysis, to assign different effective tax rates to spouses. The calculations I provided were intended to support the argument that each spouse pays the same effective tax rate, which in my example is 22%. If you assign all of the tax-free space to A, you'll end up with an effective tax rate of 18% for A and 30% for B. This is unfair to B; it implies that B's work is less valuable per dollar. Talk about making no sense.

maizefolk

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Re: My Marginal Tax Rate is >60%
« Reply #47 on: June 22, 2016, 04:04:22 PM »
Is that why our number don't agree? Read back through your post. You never mention that you were changing A's income from $25,000 to $50,000. Making A & B's income unequal makes it much messier to write the post below but I don't see how uneven incomes change the point. The approach you are describing makes both A & B working look like a better deal financially than it actually is.

In your example the couple has $50k $75k of total income, an exemption of $20k and pays 30% tax on the remainder, which produces a take home pay of $41,000 $58,500.

If the tax exempt space were divided evenly proportionally to income (which used to mean the same thing the same until you changed A's income) between the two of them, each A would have an exemption of $10k, pay 30% of $15k $40k in tax ($12k 4,500), and have a take home of $20,500 $38,000. This suggests that if A either spouse wanted to quit working for any reason, they would need to either decrease their living expenses by $20,500 $38,000 or save up enough money to replace $20,500 $38,000 income.

However if A either spouse actually quit working, the tax owed by the couple would be only 30% of $5k = $1,500. This means the couple would have a take home pay of $23,500 and only needs to either decrease their living expenses by $35,000 $17,500 or save up enough money to replace $35,000 $17,500 of income before A or B could stop working.


Copy and paste here to run the same analysis for B. Like for A, B is $3,000 better off not working than would be suggested if the tax exempt space were divided equally (or proportionally to income if income is unequal).

By dividing the tax equally proportionately A & B end up thinking they need to work longer before either one of them can FIRE than they needed to.

Anyway, at this point we just seem to be repeating ourselves over and over, which isn't going to get us anywhere and is probably getting tedious for the other people on this thread. I suspect we just perceive the world in fundamentally different ways. Good luck to you.

Cressida

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Re: My Marginal Tax Rate is >60%
« Reply #48 on: June 22, 2016, 04:14:06 PM »
You never mention that you were changing A's income from $25,000 to $50,000.

No, I didn't, but I did state that B's income was $25K, which corresponds to only one of the possible scenarios that MDM raised - one where A makes $50K:

How would you allocate it in the following two situations, both having persons A and B who file MFJ, A makes $50K/yr and B makes $0?
1) A gets a second job paying $25K/yr
2) B gets a job paying $25K/yr

In addition, your write-up seems to assume that A's income is only $25K, which wasn't one of MDM's scenarios at all.

Maybe take a little more time before assuming I'm wrong.

madamwitty

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Re: My Marginal Tax Rate is >60%
« Reply #49 on: June 23, 2016, 12:09:51 PM »
Keep in mind too the IRA deduction as a marginal rate increase is a bit misleading, since you can still use a Roth IRA. It's not a 100% loss of the deductibility because you are still able to have future tax preferential treatment on that money.

I hadn't considered that. I don't think it's too big of an advantage since I expect to have low income/low taxes in FIRE, but it may become a bigger benefit in later retirement if the markets go well (or at least don't go poorly at the wrong times).

Also, I realized that the child tax credit phaseout doesn't work quite like I thought. The loss of credit is $50 per $1000 of AGI, regardless of how many kids. So my $3000 credit phases out over a larger AGI range than, for example, someone with only 1 kid /$1000 credit.

So my rackup in the OP would be more like:

25% Federal tax bracket
9.3% CA tax bracket
5% (Lose $50 child tax credit per $1000, x3 kids regardless of # of kids)
13.75% (Lose $275 of partial tIRA deduction per $1000, in the 25% bracket, x2 adults)
7.65% FICA
0.9% CA SDI

61.6% TOTAL