Author Topic: IRS Form 8854/ Renounce U.S. Citizenship  (Read 1463 times)

pmac

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IRS Form 8854/ Renounce U.S. Citizenship
« on: June 07, 2020, 01:38:50 PM »
Has anybody gone through renouncing their U.S. citizenship and filled out the IRS form 8854?

I was curious if retirement accounts like IRA, 401k, etc...are included in the $2million net worth figure?

Thanks

ROF Expat

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Re: IRS Form 8854/ Renounce U.S. Citizenship
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2020, 02:21:13 PM »
I haven't done an 8854, but I am pretty sure that the IRS doesn't allow any exceptions when you are figuring out your net worth.  I think the amount is per person, though, if you are married. 

If you are serious about renouncing your citizenship, you should really start consulting legal and tax experts in the US and in the country for which you intend to gain citizenship well in advance.  If your interest in renouncing is purely economic, I would suggest taking a very hard look at COL in your destination country and doing a detailed comparison to COL in the US tailored to your specific lifestyle.  You may find that the tax advantages are counterbalanced by other expenses.  As developed countries go, the US is relatively LCOL (outside of a relatively small number of areas) and the tax burden is fairly modest, particularly if you can minimize your realized income. 


pmac

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Re: IRS Form 8854/ Renounce U.S. Citizenship
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2020, 09:19:45 PM »
That all makes sense.

I was thinking about the people who are doing these Mega Back Door Roth Conversions to get their IRA's down so they don't get hit with taxes on large minimum distributions, and how instead you could just leave it all in your 401K and then renounce once you hit 70 and get citizenship in the Caymans or the Bahamas...

You get the benefit of a lifetime of immediate tax deductions while you work, then once you hit retirement a relatively tax free withdrawal depending on what country you gain citizenship in.

So many countries only tax you on the money you make in that country, you could get citizenship in one country, then live in another on a "pensioner" visa.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: IRS Form 8854/ Renounce U.S. Citizenship
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2020, 11:32:04 PM »
On the form filed to renounce citizenship, it looks like some retirement accounts might not be taxed:
https://www.irs.gov/instructions/i8854#idm140320040033936
"Exceptions. The mark-to-market tax does not apply to the following.
...
"3. Specified tax deferred accounts."

ROF Expat

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Re: IRS Form 8854/ Renounce U.S. Citizenship
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2020, 06:50:48 AM »
That all makes sense.

I was thinking about the people who are doing these Mega Back Door Roth Conversions to get their IRA's down so they don't get hit with taxes on large minimum distributions, and how instead you could just leave it all in your 401K and then renounce once you hit 70 and get citizenship in the Caymans or the Bahamas...

You get the benefit of a lifetime of immediate tax deductions while you work, then once you hit retirement a relatively tax free withdrawal depending on what country you gain citizenship in.

So many countries only tax you on the money you make in that country, you could get citizenship in one country, then live in another on a "pensioner" visa.

I see what you're talking about, and it is a good concept.  I think you'll find that in practice it is a little more difficult and a lot more expensive than you might expect.  There are real tax benefits, but the costs usually only make it worthwhile for people who are extremely wealthy. 

Most countries with a high standard of living and low taxes offer residency/citizenship with a very high up front cost.  In a place like the Cayman Islands, that means investing millions of dollars up front, buying property, and holding a lot of money in local banks.  Having to invest a couple of million is a fair price if it saves you capital gains taxes on a $100 million portfolio, but might not work for someone with a net worth of "only" $10 million.  The other catch is that most countries don't give instant citizenship.  You usually have to have five or more years of residency before you can apply, and there might be some requirements for physical presence.  And just "qualifying" for citizenship might not mean they'd actually give you a passport.  So you'd have to take a couple of million dollars while you're still a US citizen, invest in the Caymans, and wait 5 or more years to apply for citizenship before you (maybe) could escape from US taxes. 

It sounds like you're still in the early stages of planning, but if you are making decisions right now about things like paying taxes up front to be able to do a backdoor Roth, you should start looking into the requirements of some specific countries you think might be good candidates for citizenship and doing the math. 

Retirement visas are easier to get than citizenship, and choosing to reside overseas for a lower cost of living is more likely to make financial sense than renouncing citizenship for tax purposes (at least for people like me who aren't traveling by yacht or private jet). 

One other thing to consider would be your interest in spending time in the US in retirement.  If you renounced your citizenship, you'd have to apply for a visa unless your new citizenship is from a visa waiver country.  Visa waiver visits are for up to 90 days, and tourist visa visits are up to 180 days.  If you only visit the US for a few weeks a year, it wouldn't be an issue.  If circumstances caused you to have a 6-month visit to help with a new grandchild followed a couple of months later by a few months at Christmas and a few months later by a three month visit to help with a family emergency and some medical care of your own, you might risk being refused visas in the future as an "intending immigrant."  It might seem strange, but remember that non-citizens have no "right" to visit the US, and as a former citizen you might actually find it harder to prove that you don't intend to stay in the US (while enjoying the tax benefits of being a citizen of another country). 

Good luck with whatever path you take!

SeattleCPA

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Re: IRS Form 8854/ Renounce U.S. Citizenship
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2020, 07:44:00 AM »
Has anybody gone through renouncing their U.S. citizenship and filled out the IRS form 8854?

I was curious if retirement accounts like IRA, 401k, etc...are included in the $2million net worth figure?

Thanks

Your 401(k) and IRA retirement accounts will get taxed by the US when you draw the money regardless of where you're a citizen. Keep in mind that those funds, when you draw them, will represent US source income and so be taxed by the US. I.e., when Vanguard (or whomever) sends you the 1099-R to show you the taxable income you've withdrawn, they send it to the IRS too.

Two general comments, too: First, this seems like a decision you'd make only after consulting a $600 or $700 an hour tax attorney at a big US law firm... maybe buying 10 or 20 hours of time so the guy has an incentive to help you make a good decision.

Second, I have seen some terrible outcomes for US taxpayers engaged in what I'll label "offshore tax planning" activities.

pmac

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Re: IRS Form 8854/ Renounce U.S. Citizenship
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2020, 02:43:30 PM »
Quote
Your 401(k) and IRA retirement accounts will get taxed by the US when you draw the money regardless of where you're a citizen.

I didn't know this.

Maybe a better idea to remain a citizen, live outside the country, and claim the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion on Roth conversions...

The lawyers are good advice if you happen to be in the same situation as John Templeton https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Templeton#Wealth_and_philanthropy

ROF Expat

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Re: IRS Form 8854/ Renounce U.S. Citizenship
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2020, 03:09:03 PM »
Quote
Your 401(k) and IRA retirement accounts will get taxed by the US when you draw the money regardless of where you're a citizen.

I didn't know this.

Maybe a better idea to remain a citizen, live outside the country, and claim the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion on Roth conversions...

The lawyers are good advice if you happen to be in the same situation as John Templeton https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Templeton#Wealth_and_philanthropy
Quote
Your 401(k) and IRA retirement accounts will get taxed by the US when you draw the money regardless of where you're a citizen.

I didn't know this.

Maybe a better idea to remain a citizen, live outside the country, and claim the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion on Roth conversions...

The lawyers are good advice if you happen to be in the same situation as John Templeton https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Templeton#Wealth_and_philanthropy

Maybe I'm missing something here.  How would you link the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion to a Roth conversion? 

terran

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Re: IRS Form 8854/ Renounce U.S. Citizenship
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2020, 03:09:21 PM »
Maybe a better idea to remain a citizen, live outside the country, and claim the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion on Roth conversions...

No can do. Roth conversions aren't earned income.

How much do you really plan to spend in retirement? You can have an awfully low tax bill on plenty for a mustachian to live on.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: IRS Form 8854/ Renounce U.S. Citizenship
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2020, 09:25:02 AM »
Quote
Your 401(k) and IRA retirement accounts will get taxed by the US when you draw the money regardless of where you're a citizen.
Maybe a better idea to remain a citizen, live outside the country, and claim the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion on Roth conversions...
The Roth Conversion would still be U.S. sourced income, not foreign, and would additionally not be earned income.  So you couldn't use the foreign earned income exclusion, as I understand it.