Author Topic: Ethical Tax Software Recommendations  (Read 1651 times)

msilenus

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Ethical Tax Software Recommendations
« on: March 07, 2019, 01:22:38 PM »
Hi all,

I've been meaning to get off of TurboTax for a while because they lobby to keep the tax code complex, which is a social ill.  [1] However, I feel stuck because H&R Block does the same thing, and my tax situation tends to be complex enough that I really need the help.  I thought I was going to muddle through with TT again this year, but I ran into a bug that's keeping me from completing the return.  That's finally stiffening my spine.

So I thought I'd come here and ask for suggestions. 

I need something that will correctly handle a) ESPP disqualified dispositions, b) 529 trustee-to-trustee rollovers,  c) Roth in-plan conversions, d) Backdoor Roth conversions e) ordinary brokerage investment situations like capital gains, dividends, interest; without giving money to Intuit or H&R Block. 

Any tips or suggestions?

[1]  https://www.vox.com/2016/3/29/11320386/turbotax-boycott-lobbying-tax-filing-season-tax-day-april-15

RWD

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Re: Ethical Tax Software Recommendations
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2019, 01:26:29 PM »
I used FreeTaxUSA again this year. I'd be surprised if it couldn't handle everything you need.

Boofinator

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Re: Ethical Tax Software Recommendations
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2019, 01:31:14 PM »
I've found the tax code that goes into the average individual taxpayer's return to be not that complex (as evident by TurboTax being able to transform it into a bunch of easy questions). So I just do it myself using the IRS forms. It does take a little more time to accomplish, but the side benefit that comes out of it is a much better understanding of the tax code (from which knowledge you can make tax-optimal decisions in the future).

Sibley

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Re: Ethical Tax Software Recommendations
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2019, 05:03:52 PM »
Do your taxes manually, with forms and instructions. Of course the companies want the tax code to be complex. Ironically, the accountants want to simplify it.

SeattleCPA

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Re: Ethical Tax Software Recommendations
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2019, 06:20:41 AM »
I think it's a terrible idea to do your return by hand.

Thought experiment: Is there anyone who actually does tax returns for a living who's decided to "go manual"? Gosh, no way! You dramatically lower your tax return's quality by doing it by hand.

P.S. I should say that we have to do some bits and pieces of really complicated tax returns by hand when the software doesn't do the work for you. That always ends up being a bad situation... risky, prone to errors, ugh.

Boofinator

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Re: Ethical Tax Software Recommendations
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2019, 07:30:57 AM »
I think it's a terrible idea to do your return by hand.

Thought experiment: Is there anyone who actually does tax returns for a living who's decided to "go manual"? Gosh, no way! You dramatically lower your tax return's quality by doing it by hand.

P.S. I should say that we have to do some bits and pieces of really complicated tax returns by hand when the software doesn't do the work for you. That always ends up being a bad situation... risky, prone to errors, ugh.

First, a CPA would probably say that. Understandable.

Second, you are absolutely right, a professional taxpayer would use software. But I would hope they are familiar with the tax code before they use the software, otherwise they're a trained monkey.

Third, in reference to my original post, it adds time, but the value one gains is in understanding the tax code and how to apply it to their personal life (this is the MMM forums, where DIY isn't typically criticized but rather praised). I would also recommend one looks at a previous year's return if doing their own return by hand for the first time.

Fourth, what do you even mean by "lower your tax return's quality by doing it by hand"? This doesn't even make sense, unless you think people are missing valuable tax breaks or making addition or subtraction mistakes. The IRS doesn't give bonus dollars for a "quality" tax return.

As to your postscript, if things get really complicated you should hit up a CPA (as MMM decided to do once he hit it rich with business income).

seattlecyclone

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Re: Ethical Tax Software Recommendations
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2019, 11:27:11 PM »
Fourth, what do you even mean by "lower your tax return's quality by doing it by hand"? This doesn't even make sense, unless you think people are missing valuable tax breaks or making addition or subtraction mistakes. The IRS doesn't give bonus dollars for a "quality" tax return.

I'm no CPA, but people absolutely do make addition and subtraction mistakes. Computers do not. I use Free File Fillable Forms for mine. It takes care of some (but not all) of the arithmetic for you. It's still more error-prone than higher-quality software operated by a skilled practitioner.  It's a risk I'm willing to take because it saves a few bucks, I know the tax code pretty well, and I actually kind of like doing it. Your mileage may vary.

SeattleCPA

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Re: Ethical Tax Software Recommendations
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2019, 07:04:19 AM »
I think it's a terrible idea to do your return by hand.

Thought experiment: Is there anyone who actually does tax returns for a living who's decided to "go manual"? Gosh, no way! You dramatically lower your tax return's quality by doing it by hand.

P.S. I should say that we have to do some bits and pieces of really complicated tax returns by hand when the software doesn't do the work for you. That always ends up being a bad situation... risky, prone to errors, ugh.

First, a CPA would probably say that. Understandable.

Second, you are absolutely right, a professional taxpayer would use software. But I would hope they are familiar with the tax code before they use the software, otherwise they're a trained monkey.

Third, in reference to my original post, it adds time, but the value one gains is in understanding the tax code and how to apply it to their personal life (this is the MMM forums, where DIY isn't typically criticized but rather praised). I would also recommend one looks at a previous year's return if doing their own return by hand for the first time.

Fourth, what do you even mean by "lower your tax return's quality by doing it by hand"? This doesn't even make sense, unless you think people are missing valuable tax breaks or making addition or subtraction mistakes. The IRS doesn't give bonus dollars for a "quality" tax return.

As to your postscript, if things get really complicated you should hit up a CPA (as MMM decided to do once he hit it rich with business income).

Okay, first I want to apologize for saying this is a terrible idea. That was too close to an ad hominem attack which forum rules and also good manners prohibit.

But to address your points, first, doing the calculations by hand as @seattlecyclone notes leads to arithmetic errors in your return.  Even a simple return includes potentially dozens and often hundreds of calculations. Doing the return manually means errors. Those errors mean all sorts of bad things including an increase in the risk of an audit. Further, unless the mistakes increase your taxes, you're almost guaranteed to need to follow-up and correct your errors when IRS sends a CP notice.

Second, if you've got your numbers into the tax software, you can usually easily do some what-if analysis simply by changing a number or two. Note that you can't with tax law just use "rules of thumb"... you usually want to run the calculations. E.g., are you sure you want to use the standard deduction? Yes, it seems like it gives you a better number than your total itemized deductions... but what about the effect on your AMT? You could redo the calculations again by hand... or you can check a box and let the software do the math.

Third, the software should include hundreds (sometimes hundreds) of diagnostics that look at your calculated results, at the fields you've filled, at the fields you left blank, and then point to possible errors or opportunities. Even if you know the forms and the instructions really well, a human isn't going to do a good job at building her or his own list of diagnostic checks and then remembering to "run" those diagnostics every time an input changes.

Boofinator

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Re: Ethical Tax Software Recommendations
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2019, 08:41:35 AM »
So I'm probably about halfway through my federal tax return, and in my opinion it has gotten more annoying with the 1040 broken out now into numbered schedules (and of course the lettered schedules are still around).

Regarding the comments on making mistakes as a reason for using tax software: I fully agree this is possible, but I would think mistakes are more probable using transcription errors rather than with the addition and subtraction. I generally punch my numbers into a spreadsheet for calculations, and as a bonus a lot of the forms have a built-in error check for the math (for example, Form 8949 for capital gains/losses has you adding columns for proceeds, cost, and gains, and of course it is a quick check to ensure the difference between the first two equals the last).

One caveat to my earlier recommendation: using the IRS forms is not for everyone. I think it is only best for those who have a desire to get familiar with the tax code and the patience to read through government legalese. I would not mention this route to most people in real life because they would end up hating me. But I feel the MMM forum would be the place, if any, that would be more amenable to learning the tax code and saving money in the process (both by better implementation of tax strategy in the future and by not paying for the tax software).

Boofinator

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Re: Ethical Tax Software Recommendations
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2019, 04:23:43 PM »
Let me add one more reason for using the IRS forms: Fuck the tax software companies, as they are always lobbying Congress to make the IRS forms as difficult as possible. For example, the IRS has wanted to fill out simple returns automatically, but Congress prohibits them from doing so.

https://www.propublica.org/article/how-the-maker-of-turbotax-fought-free-simple-tax-filing

msilenus

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Re: Ethical Tax Software Recommendations
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2019, 09:55:19 PM »
Thanks for the replies, everyone.  I wanted to circle back and report that I went with FreeTaxUSA, and it did indeed work fine for everything in my situation.  There are places where there's less hand-holding, but I think I actually preferred it to TT.  A lot of TT's screens are chatty nonsense, and that was all gone.  Honestly, the only thing I found myself missing was having a full downloadable client.

I couldn't (quickly) figure out if their parent company is amongst the villainous lobbiers keeping tax reporting baroque, but either way: I'll rest easier knowing that what I paid them for a single state return won't buy much lobbying.