Author Topic: Canadian taxes strategy help  (Read 2871 times)

max9505672

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Canadian taxes strategy help
« on: January 05, 2017, 09:04:28 PM »
Hi!

I'm a Canadian resident and this year will be the first year it'll be worth contributing to my RRSP. Every year before, being a student on quite low income, I also didn't have any taxes to pay so contributed to my TFSA as much as possible instead.

My maximum contribution to my RRSP up to the end of 2016 (including year 2016) will be around 35000$.

I will have around 20K$ to invest and I'm wondering what would be the best strategy?
 - Apply all of the 20000$ to the RRSP in order to maximize to tax return on a +/- 50000$ gross salary in 2016 (Pay taxes on 30000$ income)?
 - Maximize my TFSA for 2017 (5500$) + invest the difference in a RRSP (Pay taxes on +/-35000$)
 - Apply X$ on the RRSP of 2016 and keep (20k$ - X$) to apply on next year's RRSP since I could maybe have more tax return that? Ex: Apply 10000$ for 2016, Pay taxes on 40000$ = Get Y$ tax return AND Apply 10000$ for 2017, Pay taxes on (40000$+3% for inflation let's say) = Get Z$ tax return

Or any other suggestion?

Thanks

Prairie Stash

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Re: Canadian taxes strategy help
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2017, 10:00:50 AM »
Step one is to apply for the CRA myaccount to have a look at exactly what is available for RRSP contributions and TFSA amounts. Get this in quick, they need to mail a password out and there's a rush in February.
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/myaccount/

Then its province specific as to the best amount for RRSP contribution but in general its not worth much to get your declared income below $45K. For an exact amount refer to the tax brackets for your province in the link and then proceed. You should have your taxes figured out by valentines day so that you can do a top-up RRSP contribution by Feb. 28.
http://www.taxtips.ca/marginaltaxrates.htm

Age actually matters for TFSA, "as much as possible" implies you didn't max it out, the room carries forward in Canada.

In your situation with details provided your TFSA should be maxed, then bring your declared income to about $45K, then have an investment account for the remainder. So X sounds like $5000, less any tuition credits applied, followed by the 2017 TFSA of $5500 and whatever room you didn't use (lifetime contribution should be $52,000 for you depending on age - less if you're young but myaccount has the details). That leaves $9500 in an investment account with Questrade (or whatever you choose).

Other details of interest include your expected income and savings for 2017, being a new graduate did you work 12 months last year or will 2017 be higher? What is your expected savings per year and can you continue maxing TFSA? I assume no kids, no spouse as well. I have no idea on your tuition credits or other tax credits, those all drop your taxable income.

If you leave the RRSP room for higher income years you get larger percentages back as illustrated in the taxtip table for your province.

max9505672

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Re: Canadian taxes strategy help
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2017, 04:24:12 PM »
Thanks for the references. Being a Quebec resident, I should aim for 42 705$ for a total 28.53% prov. and fed. combined taxes.
 
Sorry, I didn't mention, but my TFSA in maxed out until 2016 (2016 included). So I have room for 5500$ starting from January 1st 2017.
 
I have no kids, no spouse. I was considered a student from Jan. 2016 to end of August 2016 (2/3 of the year). I don't exactly how it's going to affect my taxes for 2016.. My 2017 salary is only going to be around 10% higher (I worked as an intern and made pretty good money).
 
My investments (TFSA and RRSP) are currently in high MER's mutual funds that I want to move to Vanguard. I currently have 15500$ in RRSP (since last November) and, according to my financial advisor, I could invest this amount in a RRSP and decide which amount of that 15500$ I want to apply to the 2016 fiscal year in order to maximize my tax return and keep the difference for next years. That way, the investment keeps growing without taxes and I can maximize the tax return each year (aiming for that 42705$). Is that also possible with an investment in Vanguard fund through a broker (as a RRSP)?

So you are right; Depending on my tuition credit, X should be 5000$ or less, then 5500$ (in the next few days) to TFSA and keep the balance in the RRSP for next years (always shooting for 42705$ + yearly increase).
 
I expect to save 25500$ (including employer contribution) in 2017 which is about 62% of my take home salary. The plan is to full the remaining RRSP space (still need to confirm the allowable amount) and then open another account taxable account for the difference.

Edit: Let's go with a simplified example. Let's say my 2016 income was 50000$ and I have 20000$ to invest. Normally, in Quebec, according to Taxtips.ca, in 2016 I shoud have paid (28.53% * 42390$) + (32.53% * 2892$) + (37.12% * 4718$) = 14794$ in taxes
Let's compare those 2 options:
Option 1 : Invest 7610$ in RRSP, pay taxes on 42390$ :  28.53% * 42390$ = 12093$
Option 1 return : 2701$
Option 1 return/insvestment purcentage : 2701$/5000$ = 54%
Option 2 : Invest 15000$ in RRSP, pay taxes on 35000$ : 28.53% * 35000$ = 9985$
Option 2 return : 4809$
Option 2 return/investment purcentage : 4809$/15000$ = 32%

Obviously, return % is higher for Option 1, but the difference (4809$-2701$=2108$) could also be invested during that time, but there's a bug gap between 54% and 32%.

I guess the Option 1 is the best!

« Last Edit: January 06, 2017, 10:01:22 PM by max9505672 »

Sarnia Saver

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Re: Canadian taxes strategy help
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2017, 08:58:48 PM »
Your example doesn't factor in having to withdrawal the RRSP money and pay taxes on it when it comes out.  Which lessens each return considerably.  With a relatively low income, I'd try to avoid the RRSP for now, let the contribution room grow.  Instead, open a non-registered and fill it with whatever you have left after stuffing the TFSA to capacity.  Bonus points if you keep the Canadian dividend paying portion of your portfolio in the non registered account for low-tax growth.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2017, 09:02:39 PM by Sarnia Saver »

max9505672

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Re: Canadian taxes strategy help
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2017, 10:49:56 PM »
You are right, I completely ignored the taxes on withdrawal in my example. Though, since I'm planning to live on a relatively low income when I FIRE, the withdrawal taxes won't be high. But you are right, it will affect the return. How exactly, I don't know.

Do you know if it's possible in Canada to invest money in a RRSP without claiming the full amount for taxes return while the investment keeps growing in the RRSP without taxes? (The financial counselor I've seen says it's possble...)
For example, let's say I have 15000$ to invest. I invest it all in a RRSP but only ''apply'' 5000$ on taxes report. That way, I'd only get the tax return on 5000$, but the whole 15000$ keeps growing at taxes shelter.

Bonus points if you keep the Canadian dividend paying portion of your portfolio in the non registered account for low-tax growth.
Can you please elaborate on that?

Prairie Stash

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Re: Canadian taxes strategy help
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2017, 01:28:40 PM »
You are right, I completely ignored the taxes on withdrawal in my example. Though, since I'm planning to live on a relatively low income when I FIRE, the withdrawal taxes won't be high. But you are right, it will affect the return. How exactly, I don't know.

Do you know if it's possible in Canada to invest money in a RRSP without claiming the full amount for taxes return while the investment keeps growing in the RRSP without taxes? (The financial counselor I've seen says it's possble...)
For example, let's say I have 15000$ to invest. I invest it all in a RRSP but only ''apply'' 5000$ on taxes report. That way, I'd only get the tax return on 5000$, but the whole 15000$ keeps growing at taxes shelter.
Yes, you can contribute up to your maximum lifetime amount(+$2,000 spare). It is not a tax shelter, its a tax deferral, please consider it this way and it'll make more sense. You will be paying taxes on it all upon pulling it out, not so cool. Provided that you were in the same tax bracket it would essentially be a wash except....sarnia saver showed you a better tax strategy

Dividends in Quebec are taxed at a much lower rate than income, any money pulled from an RRSP is considered income. So if you invest in funds that pay out dividends you'll pay a miniscule amount of tax on it outside an RRSP and then the tax hit is done. If its held inside the RRSP then you'll be paying tax on it at a much higher rate (see the taxtip table again).

This is one of the few forums that discusses maxed out accounts and investing money, its a rare situation that most sites don't touch upon. I'd dump the financial counselor, you're getting poor value.

You're also making plans like you won't have equal amounts to save in future years, are you expecting your savings rate to decrease soon?

daverobev

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Re: Canadian taxes strategy help
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2017, 05:55:46 PM »
Do you have an idea of how your salary will change over the years?

I would certainly max the TFSA, no questions asked.

It is nice to have extra RRSP room when (if) you have children as you get 'more for your money' in terms of child benefits with lower income. Mad, but true.

I would only at most put enough in the RRSP to bring you down a tax bracket.

max9505672

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Re: Canadian taxes strategy help
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2017, 06:01:27 PM »
Yes, you can contribute up to your maximum lifetime amount(+$2,000 spare). It is not a tax shelter, its a tax deferral, please consider it this way and it'll make more sense. You will be paying taxes on it all upon pulling it out, not so cool. Provided that you were in the same tax bracket it would essentially be a wash except....sarnia saver showed you a better tax strategy
Right, always forget to mention the withdrawal taxes, because I thought the tax rate were lower at around $20000/$25000, but, according to Taxtips.ca, all income under $42,705$ (2017) is equally taxed at 28.53%. Is that right? Isn't there a minimum amount before starting to pay taxes?

Dividends in Quebec are taxed at a much lower rate than income, any money pulled from an RRSP is considered income. So if you invest in funds that pay out dividends you'll pay a miniscule amount of tax on it outside an RRSP and then the tax hit is done. If its held inside the RRSP then you'll be paying tax on it at a much higher rate (see the taxtip table again).

This is one of the few forums that discusses maxed out accounts and investing money, its a rare situation that most sites don't touch upon. I'd dump the financial counselor, you're getting poor value.
Wow, never thought of that, and honestly, I'm pretty surprised the counselor didn't advice me on that. I understand the vast majority of people aren't in this situation, but it's still his job to fully understand all of these advantages... No doubt I'll dump him.

So from what I understand, I should contribute to my RRSP up until I hit the lower bracket ($42.390 for 2016) and invest the rest in an open account that pays dividends. Or should I completely forget the RRSP for now?
You guys talked about dividends that are, effectively, taxed at a much lower rate. But what about the capital gains? I know they also are taxed at only 50% of regular income, but wouldn't it be better to avoid as much capital gains as possible in non-registered account by investing in a RRSP and re-investing the taxes return?

I guess from a long term point of view, it's not better. Too bad I already have $15000 already stuck in a RRSP...

You're also making plans like you won't have equal amounts to save in future years, are you expecting your savings rate to decrease soon?
It's not the case. In fact, I plan to have even more money to invest in future years (as income goes up quicker than outcome). Honestly, I didn't understand it fully (and wasn't that well advised) when I first posted. I probably wouldn't have invested that $15000 in a RRSP if I understood the dividends taxes well enough. It's not that bad in the long run since I'll keep it there and contribute to my RRSP each year in order to achieve the lower tax bracket..

In fact, here's a quick calculation I made with some assumptions trying to figure out how long I could only pay minimum tax bracket (minimum purcentage on maximum lower bracket amount ($42,705 for 2017) if that makes sense):



max9505672

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Re: Canadian taxes strategy help
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2017, 06:04:20 PM »
Do you have an idea of how your salary will change over the years?

No I don't, still didn't have my first raise...

I would certainly max the TFSA, no questions asked.

That's the plan.

It is nice to have extra RRSP room when (if) you have children as you get 'more for your money' in terms of child benefits with lower income. Mad, but true.

Good to know!

I would only at most put enough in the RRSP to bring you down a tax bracket.

That would be the plan too! (See my previous post).

Prairie Stash

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Re: Canadian taxes strategy help
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2017, 08:39:08 AM »
Capital gains are only paid when you sell something lets take my current favorite dividend ETF for Canada stocks, Vanguards VDY. If you buy it you get dividends regularly that are taxed. However since I'm in it for the long term I don't sell anything, not till I FIRE, so no capital gains are owed. So to avoid capital gains taxes all you need to do is buy/hold like Warren Buffett and what most people on this site advocate, hold good quality ETF's for a long time.

https://www.vanguardcanada.ca/advisors/mvc/detail/etf/overview?portId=9560&assetCode=EQUITY##overview
 
I'm still struggling with the right mix of RRSP/TFSA/private account totals to optimize taxes in retirement for my family, I've already figured out that all three are necessary now and should be on the order of $250,000 for the RRSP, max TFSA and the remainder in private. Its dependent on my spouse and spending rates so my numbers differ from yours.

As daverobev pointed out the RRSP's are currently worth more once you have children. I get an additional 5.7% back on my RRSP contributions because I have 2 kids (more kids have a higher %). The money comes in the form of increased child benefit cheques which are income based.

See the investment forum for better investment advice. TuxedoEagle has helped me in the past, there's lots of other good advice for Canadians there.

max9505672

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Re: Canadian taxes strategy help
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2017, 10:48:51 AM »
Capital gains are only paid when you sell something lets take my current favorite dividend ETF for Canada stocks, Vanguards VDY. If you buy it you get dividends regularly that are taxed. However since I'm in it for the long term I don't sell anything, not till I FIRE, so no capital gains are owed. So to avoid capital gains taxes all you need to do is buy/hold like Warren Buffett and what most people on this site advocate, hold good quality ETF's for a long time.

https://www.vanguardcanada.ca/advisors/mvc/detail/etf/overview?portId=9560&assetCode=EQUITY##overview

Right, no capital gains are owed yearly, but when you'll withdraw/sell, when you FIRE, you'll have taxes to pay on capital gains. Let's say you invest 10K$ today and FIRE in 15 years with 20K$, how would you have to pay taxes on that 20K$ as you sell parts on this investment along the years?

daverobev

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Re: Canadian taxes strategy help
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2017, 12:05:11 PM »
Capital gains are only paid when you sell something lets take my current favorite dividend ETF for Canada stocks, Vanguards VDY. If you buy it you get dividends regularly that are taxed. However since I'm in it for the long term I don't sell anything, not till I FIRE, so no capital gains are owed. So to avoid capital gains taxes all you need to do is buy/hold like Warren Buffett and what most people on this site advocate, hold good quality ETF's for a long time.

https://www.vanguardcanada.ca/advisors/mvc/detail/etf/overview?portId=9560&assetCode=EQUITY##overview

Right, no capital gains are owed yearly, but when you'll withdraw/sell, when you FIRE, you'll have taxes to pay on capital gains. Let's say you invest 10K$ today and FIRE in 15 years with 20K$, how would you have to pay taxes on that 20K$ as you sell parts on this investment along the years?

You only pay tax on the gain (hence the name); the $10k investment is yours. When you sell, then, you pay cap gains tax on the gain, which is taxed at 50% of your marginal rate.

So if you have an annual income otherwise of $15k and are hence above the tax free allowance, and in the bottom tax bracket; and say that that bracket's total rate is 30%.

For every $100 of the investment you sell, half is your original money, and half would be taxed; because it is cap gain you would pay 15% of the $50 of gain. So $7.50.

If you sold all $20k, you would pay 15% of $10k = 1.5k. Assuming that didn't change your tax bracket, of course (if the next bracket were at $20k, and was 40%, you would pay 15% on the first $5k and 20% on the second $5k of gain).

Hope that's clear but honestly, don't worry about it. You don't (generally) *avoid* taxation; you can defer it. Well... it's complicated.. heh. Income is taxable. After that, it's yours. You can defer by putting money in an RRSP. You can shelter in a TFSA so that any *income* you get on the initial income is tax free. You only pay tax on (a given dollar) once. If that dollar earns you another dollar, you have to pay tax on the dollar earned.

max9505672

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Re: Canadian taxes strategy help
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2017, 01:37:14 PM »
Very clear thank you!