Author Topic: Can I offset a Roth Conversion with self-employed 401(k) contribution?  (Read 2364 times)

opnfld

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I think the answer is yes, but would love additional input.

Three years into my retirement, my wife has begun reducing her self-employment income.  I think it's time to start a Roth Conversion Ladder with a goal of maximizing this year's ACA subsidies and minimizing taxes long-term.

Can I reduce our MAGI by maximizing her self-employed 401(k) contribution (~$20K) and max ACA subsidies by setting the amount of the Roth conversion to put our MAGI at the 138%FPL threshold?  Does this strategy make sense or am I missing something?

terran

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Re: Can I offset a Roth Conversion with self-employed 401(k) contribution?
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2019, 06:58:36 AM »
Sort of. Converting to Roth and contributing an equal amount to traditional 401(k) will cancel out in the sense that your AGI be the same as contributing directly to Roth 401(k) and leaving the IRA where it is. However, amounts contributed to traditional 401(k) reduce the QBI deduction, so while your MAGI will the same for ACA purposes, you may owe more tax due to the reduced QBI deduction. You'll essentially have a 20% higher marginal tax bracket with traditional 401(k) vs Roth 401(k) (10% vs 8% for example).

If her solo 401(k) is at one of the places that doesn't allow Roth contributions and you don't want to move it then your suggestion isn't bad, and since 138% of FPL is below the standard deduction you won't pay any tax anyway, but it's probably not quite optimal. If you want to optimize things and her solo 401(k) isn't at a provider that allows Roth contributions I would suggest Etrade, although Vanguard and TD Ameritrade are also options.

You should do the math, but I would suggest that targeting the standard deduction plus enough self employment income not sheltered by traditional 401(k) deductions that the SE tax deduction and QBI deduction bring you back down to the standard deduction, and maybe plus enough that the Saver's Tax credit (assuming you're not withdrawing from IRAs) removes any tax due might be the way to go. This will add some "tax" in the form decreased subsidies, so you'll have to see if that's worth it for the amount you'll get in to Roth in terms of a marginal tax rate.

Also consider how big your tax deferred accounts are and how long you have to convert. Will converting only up to around the 138% FPL be sustainable, or will you have to do more later? It's usually best to keep your taxable income as even as possible rather than keeping it very low in some years, then having large spikes other years.

opnfld

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Re: Can I offset a Roth Conversion with self-employed 401(k) contribution?
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2019, 11:15:00 AM »
Thanks, I appreciate your response.  I hadn't considered contributing to a Roth 401(k), but it's a cleaner approach.  That said, we aren't really "saving" any of her income, only moving money from taxable accounts into a Roth, which is still advantageous I think (we won't incur any capital gains to do so).

I should have mentioned that we are a family of four, so putting our income at 138% of the FPL will exceed the standard deduction by ~$11,500.  Her business will only net around $22-25K this year, so I think we'll exceed the standard deduction after SE tax deduction and QBI deduction (although we didn't receive the QBI deduction last year due to qualified dividends and capital gains).

We also failed to qualify for the Saver's Tax credit according to Turbotax - our taxable income was only $11,549, tax due $0.  The only tax we paid was SE tax.  Are there steps we can take to qualify this year?

We have about $500K in tax deferred accounts and are in our early 40's.  My intent had been to wait for my wife to retire in ~3-5 years and then get serious about converting that money to Roth over 25 years.

terran

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Re: Can I offset a Roth Conversion with self-employed 401(k) contribution?
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2019, 12:40:45 PM »
I'm not sure I follow why you didn't qualify for the QBI deduction based on dividends and capital gains? Did you realize a bunch of gains that pushed you over the income limit for a specified service business? I might be missing some other effect. 

Here's info on the savers credit: https://www.irs.gov/retirement-plans/plan-participant-employee/retirement-savings-contributions-savers-credit. As long as you're under the AGI limit, each contribute at least $2000 more than you withdraw from a retirement account (you can contribute to an IRA based on her income as long as total contributions stay under her income), and haven't withdrawn from retirement accounts in the last few years (see form 8880) you should qualify. I just remembered there was a recent blog post at https://www.gocurrycracker.com/massive-tax-free-roth-conversions-savers-credit/ that would be useful for you. You can consider Roth 401(k) contributions and Roth conversions as interchangeable for the purposes of that post. He has some good posts on maximizing ACA subsidies too.

One possible wrinkle in all of this is that qualified dividends and long term capital gains, while taxed at 0%, do increase AGI and MAGI for savers credit and ACA purposes, so that might limit your ability to contribute/convert to Roth with minimal tax consequences.

opnfld

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Re: Can I offset a Roth Conversion with self-employed 401(k) contribution?
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2019, 06:39:46 PM »
Regarding QBI and capital gains: on the worksheet to determine QBI deduction we subtract net capital gains (qualified dividends + capital gains) from taxable income before QBI deduction.  Our net capital gains exceeded our taxable income so our QBI deduction was zero.

Love gocurrycracker.  I've been reading the same ACA optimization articles for years...and still don't know what to do, LOL!  I actually read his Saver's Credit article yesterday before I posted here.  I had to dig back through my 2018 taxes to figure out why we didn't qualify for the credit - conclusion: we didn't pay any tax on income (just self-employment).  Since the credit is non-refundable, we have to owe taxes to qualify.

Based on that article, I need to determine the income level that results in us owing just under $1,500 of income tax (to facilitate the Saver's Credit) which results in ~$300/year reduction in ACA subsidies.  From there I can determine how much IRA to convert to Roth to increase income to that optimal threshold.  Qualified dividends and capital gains effects this calculation, so I'll have to figure that in.  Based on your comments, I should contribute the maximum ~$20,000 to a Roth 401(k) and convert the difference from traditional to Roth.  Estimating that at around $7,500, i'll be paying ~$300 in tax or about 4% on the converted amount.

I wonder if the the Saver's Credit can offset over-payment of ACA subsidies?

Thanks again for your help.  I used to understand how to manipulate my taxes, but between the ACA and trying to plan 5+ years in advance, I'm not feeling confident.  At least now I have a plan.

LightStache

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Re: Can I offset a Roth Conversion with self-employed 401(k) contribution?
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2019, 04:33:23 PM »
Sort of. Converting to Roth and contributing an equal amount to traditional 401(k) will cancel out in the sense that your AGI be the same as contributing directly to Roth 401(k) and leaving the IRA where it is.

Employer matching/non-elective contributions reduce FICA/SS tax, so while AGI would be the same, SE tax would be lower with OP's original strategy. Employer matching can't be made to Roth side.

Check out https://www.irs.gov/retirement-plans/retirement-plan-faqs-regarding-contributions-are-retirement-plan-contributions-subject-to-withholding-for-fica-medicare-or-federal-income-tax

LightStache

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Re: Can I offset a Roth Conversion with self-employed 401(k) contribution?
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2019, 04:35:59 PM »
Sort of. Converting to Roth and contributing an equal amount to traditional 401(k) will cancel out in the sense that your AGI be the same as contributing directly to Roth 401(k) and leaving the IRA where it is.

Employer matching/non-elective contributions reduce FICA/SS tax, so while AGI would be the same, SE tax would be lower with OP's original strategy. Employer matching can't be made to Roth side.

Check out https://www.irs.gov/retirement-plans/retirement-plan-faqs-regarding-contributions-are-retirement-plan-contributions-subject-to-withholding-for-fica-medicare-or-federal-income-tax

...oh actually because of lower SE tax deduction, I guess AGI would actually be higher in OP's original plan, but SE tax would be lower

terran

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Re: Can I offset a Roth Conversion with self-employed 401(k) contribution?
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2019, 12:11:09 PM »
Sort of. Converting to Roth and contributing an equal amount to traditional 401(k) will cancel out in the sense that your AGI be the same as contributing directly to Roth 401(k) and leaving the IRA where it is.

Employer matching/non-elective contributions reduce FICA/SS tax, so while AGI would be the same, SE tax would be lower with OP's original strategy. Employer matching can't be made to Roth side.

Check out https://www.irs.gov/retirement-plans/retirement-plan-faqs-regarding-contributions-are-retirement-plan-contributions-subject-to-withholding-for-fica-medicare-or-federal-income-tax

This is only for people paid as W2 employees. A self employed individual who files Schedule C will pay FICA on all net income, including that contributed to a solo 401(k) as salary deferral and as profit share. You're right (I think) that a W2 employee who is also an owner of the S-corp that employs them won't pay FICA and the profit share contribution to their solo 401(k), but since the profit share contribution comes from S-corp profits, and they still have to pay themselves a reasonable wage either way, they wouldn't pay FICA on those contributions anyway.

Basically, you'll pay FICA on any 401(k) contributions that you would pay FICA on if you didn't contribute to the 401(k) and you won't pay FICA on any contributions that you wouldn't pay FICA on if you didn't contribute to the 401(k).

opnfld

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Re: Can I offset a Roth Conversion with self-employed 401(k) contribution?
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2019, 12:31:08 PM »
I found out that only the employee portion of the Individual 401(k) contribution can be made to a Roth 401(k), the employer portion must be made to a traditional 401(k).  That limits the Roth contribution to $19,000.


terran

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Re: Can I offset a Roth Conversion with self-employed 401(k) contribution?
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2019, 03:17:23 PM »
I found out that only the employee portion of the Individual 401(k) contribution can be made to a Roth 401(k), the employer portion must be made to a traditional 401(k).  That limits the Roth contribution to $19,000.

Correct. Sorry I didn't think to mention that. It goes up to $19.5k in 2020.