Author Topic: Are self-employed 401k contributions subject to self-employment tax?  (Read 1642 times)

FIKris

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Are self-employed 401k contributions subject to self-employment tax?

I assumed they were not...but turbo tax seems to be telling me I assumed wrong.

Joel

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Re: Are self-employed 401k contributions subject to self-employment tax?
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2018, 09:29:49 AM »
I would expect that they are, as 401k contributions for normal w2 employees are also subject to fica taxes.

terran

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Re: Are self-employed 401k contributions subject to self-employment tax?
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2018, 09:32:42 AM »
If you're a sole proprietor or an LLC taxed as one they absolutely are.

I'm uncertain about S corps. The employee salary deferrals ($18k n 2017) would be since you pay FICA on that amount as a "normal" employee (source: my wife's w2), but I could see it being possible that profit sharing contributions might not be. You'd need to look into that some more.

FIKris

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Re: Are self-employed 401k contributions subject to self-employment tax?
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2018, 09:58:59 AM »
D'oh!   Thanks Terran.   Yes, sole proprietor.   Lesson learned.

Heroes821

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Re: Are self-employed 401k contributions subject to self-employment tax?
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2018, 09:11:35 AM »
The 18k in employEE contributions should still be taxed for FICA and SE, but I believe any employER contributions should avoid that. Don't quote me though.

terran

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Re: Are self-employed 401k contributions subject to self-employment tax?
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2018, 09:16:02 AM »
The 18k in employEE contributions should still be taxed for FICA and SE, but I believe any employER contributions should avoid that. Don't quote me though.

As I said, this is definitely not correct for solo proprietors. It may or may not be correct for S Corporations, but you'd need to look into that.

Heroes821

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Re: Are self-employed 401k contributions subject to self-employment tax?
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2018, 09:51:37 AM »
The 18k in employEE contributions should still be taxed for FICA and SE, but I believe any employER contributions should avoid that. Don't quote me though.

As I said, this is definitely not correct for solo proprietors. It may or may not be correct for S Corporations, but you'd need to look into that.

I can only speak from 1 year of S-corp status and I'm confidant that I did not pay SE taxes on my business contributions to the solo 401k.

terran

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Re: Are self-employed 401k contributions subject to self-employment tax?
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2018, 11:31:19 AM »
The 18k in employEE contributions should still be taxed for FICA and SE, but I believe any employER contributions should avoid that. Don't quote me though.

As I said, this is definitely not correct for solo proprietors. It may or may not be correct for S Corporations, but you'd need to look into that.

I can only speak from 1 year of S-corp status and I'm confidant that I did not pay SE taxes on my business contributions to the solo 401k.

Well that answers that then, thanks! And it makes sense that's how it would work since you only pay SE taxes on reasonable compensation, not profits for an S corp and the employER contributions to a solo 401k are profit sharing.

So it sounds like we have (anecdotal) confirmation on both fronts: You do pay SE taxes on all solo 401k contributions when filing as a sole proprietor, and you pay SE taxes on employEE contributions but not employER profit sharing contributions when filing as an S corp.

Of course, as an S corp you wouldn't be paying SE tax on distributions of profits anyway, so the only difference between contributing and not contributing under both filing types is the deferral of the marginal tax rate until withdrawal.

DavidAnnArbor

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Re: Are self-employed 401k contributions subject to self-employment tax?
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2018, 08:13:45 PM »
Yes one of the main reasons people choose S Corp status is to avoid paying FICA on the business profits.

JeremyLopez

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Re: Are self-employed 401k contributions subject to self-employment tax?
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2018, 08:40:13 AM »
Thanks everyone!  This is my first year as an LLC and I had this very same question and it was not easy finding an answer. Sometimes the obvious answers are hidden for people that are new to this. 

On another MMM forum post I found this very handy spreadsheet for calculating how much money you can put into your solo 401k: https://docs.zoho.com/sheet/published.do?rid=hd3vb2c79aa2e630443d58a05e8140934898a

DavidAnnArbor

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Re: Are self-employed 401k contributions subject to self-employment tax?
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2018, 09:11:58 AM »
Great spreadsheet

SeattleCPA

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Re: Are self-employed 401k contributions subject to self-employment tax?
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2018, 07:19:22 AM »
The 18k in employEE contributions should still be taxed for FICA and SE, but I believe any employER contributions should avoid that. Don't quote me though.

As I said, this is definitely not correct for solo proprietors. It may or may not be correct for S Corporations, but you'd need to look into that.

I can only speak from 1 year of S-corp status and I'm confidant that I did not pay SE taxes on my business contributions to the solo 401k.

Well that answers that then, thanks! And it makes sense that's how it would work since you only pay SE taxes on reasonable compensation, not profits for an S corp and the employER contributions to a solo 401k are profit sharing.

So it sounds like we have (anecdotal) confirmation on both fronts: You do pay SE taxes on all solo 401k contributions when filing as a sole proprietor, and you pay SE taxes on employEE contributions but not employER profit sharing contributions when filing as an S corp.

Of course, as an S corp you wouldn't be paying SE tax on distributions of profits anyway, so the only difference between contributing and not contributing under both filing types is the deferral of the marginal tax rate until withdrawal.

The above descriptions aren't really accurate. Some clarifying comments...

S corp shareholder-employees pay FICA and Medicare on some of the wages that show up on their W-2. Not SE taxes.

S corp shareholder-employees usually don't pay FICA and Medicare on the part of their W-2 wages that represent health insurance and HSA contributions.

S corp shareholder-employees don't pay FICA or Medicare on the employer profit sharing.

Distributions in general don't impact income taxes. Rather, the distributive share or "allocation of profit" determines income taxes.

Employee 401(k) contributions, SIMPLE-IRA contributions, SE health insurance and HSA deductions show up as income tax deductions on a person's 1040.

Finally, and maybe most importantly, fringe benefits and employer profit sharing play into the reasonable compensation calculus. The law says you need to pay reasonable compensation to shareholder-employees and that you pay FICA and Medicare on this compensation. Or most of it. (See above.) So one of the things savvy S corp owners do is try to boost their compensation to the point of reasonable using things like employer profit sharing and SE health insurance.

E.g., maybe without fringe benefits, you can't make a base salary of $40,000 work. But if you pay a base salary of $40,000... and then add to that $20,000 of health insurance and HSA... and then get to do a 25% employer profit sharing contribution (so 25% on the $40,000 and the $20,000) which means another $15,000, maybe that "$75K in total compensation" works.

And then this redundant note: In the preceding paragraph when you use an S corp, the $20K of health insurance and $15K of employer profit sharing aren't subject to FICA or Medicare.